Latest / The You Project / #1905 How Hard Is Too Hard? - Bobby Cappuccio

Transcript

#1905 How Hard Is Too Hard? - Bobby Cappuccio · The You Project

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Speaker 1: I get eight garouvers high. It's jumbo, it's fatty Harps,
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Speaker 1: it's a you project, It's it's eleven thirty seven in Melbourne.
0:08
Speaker 1: That's thriving metropolis. You don't probably need to know that.
0:10
Speaker 1: But winter is well and truly here. There's about two
0:14
Speaker 1: degrees in Melbs this morning, or where I was at least.
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Speaker 1: I hope wherever you are, whether or not you're in
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Speaker 1: the Southern Hemisphere, the Northern Hemisphere, or are there any
0:24
Speaker 1: other hemispheres Bobby or just those two, or living on
0:28
Speaker 1: the equator, I don't know. Is that it now? I
0:30
Speaker 1: covered them all.
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Speaker 2: There's southern, Northern Hemisphere. I don't know why there's not
0:35
Speaker 2: an eastern Western Hemisphere, but there's just like southern Hemisphere.
0:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, east.
0:39
Speaker 2: And West, both of them. I don't meet the rules somebody.
0:43
Speaker 1: And I'm in charge of the geography and the topography,
0:45
Speaker 1: and I don't even know what fucking category that comes in. Anyway,
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Speaker 1: Wherever you are listening and wherever you are doing life,
0:52
Speaker 1: we hope you're good. Speaking of wherever you are, you've
0:55
Speaker 1: been all over the world in the last week or so.
0:56
Speaker 1: My friend you you flew out from the States for
1:00
Speaker 1: about ten minutes to Queensland, spoke to the masses, and
1:04
Speaker 1: then ran back to the airport almost.
1:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, like fifteen thousand miles and four days. It's how
1:10
Speaker 2: we're all wow, wow.
1:13
Speaker 1: What is that? But you were I mean all silliness aside.
1:17
Speaker 1: You got here on a Did you get here on
1:20
Speaker 1: Tuesday and fly back Saturday or Sunday or something Sunday?
1:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, got in on Tuesday. Just took a little bit
1:26
Speaker 2: of R and R. Got to enjoy a magic coffee.
1:30
Speaker 2: Like I didn't even realize they had magic coffee's in Brisbane.
1:33
Speaker 2: I thought there was just gonna stare at me. I
1:35
Speaker 2: thought that was strictly a Melbourne thing. But yeah, made
1:38
Speaker 2: me a couple of really decent I mean not like
1:40
Speaker 2: Melbourne scale, but let's be fair, but a couple of
1:44
Speaker 2: decent magic coffees, and then went to bed, sort of
1:48
Speaker 2: woke up. I went to an amazing event. It really
1:52
Speaker 2: was a spectacular event, and then went home the next day.
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Speaker 1: So you got the Tuesday. What time I'll pay him?
2:01
Speaker 2: Oh god, what time did I get there? I think
2:03
Speaker 2: I got there? Yeah, am like late in the morning,
2:06
Speaker 2: which really sucks. Like if you can time it right,
2:10
Speaker 2: getting there late in the afternoon and just struggling through
2:13
Speaker 2: a couple of hours of sleep deprivation is probably ideal,
2:16
Speaker 2: and then going to better a reasonable hour again and
2:18
Speaker 2: just getting into that like normal sleep cycle as soon
2:22
Speaker 2: as you can. But that didn't work for me. But
2:25
Speaker 2: I was taking supplements, and uh got the jet lag
2:29
Speaker 2: wasn't nearly as bad as I thought it was going
2:31
Speaker 2: to be.
2:31
Speaker 1: Noting, what did you what did you take?
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Speaker 2: Well, I'm kind of reluctant to talk about things I
2:37
Speaker 2: take because I don't want to come off as recommendations,
2:40
Speaker 2: because I know, like literally bugger all about supplements. But
2:44
Speaker 2: I was I was looking just out of curiosity, like
2:46
Speaker 2: what helps with jetlag? And I came across something called
2:49
Speaker 2: pine Bark and I thought, all right, yeah, let me see,
2:52
Speaker 2: let me see if I can get this at a
2:53
Speaker 2: reasonable price on Amazon. And I could, so I did
2:57
Speaker 2: and brought it with me. They actually stopped me at
3:01
Speaker 2: immigration and they sent me through like the extra produce inspection,
3:06
Speaker 2: which was really fucking insulting because I feel like I'm
3:09
Speaker 2: getting to the age now we're like, yeah, this guy
3:11
Speaker 2: smuggles produce, Like wow, God no, not like not like
3:16
Speaker 2: you're carrying weapons. Or you're you're smuggling illicit drugs. Like
3:21
Speaker 2: we know this guy has a couple of apples in
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Speaker 2: his back. Look at them, the geezer.
3:26
Speaker 1: It's like getting carcerated for your bloody pond back or
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Speaker 1: whatever it was.
3:31
Speaker 2: Oh no, that's in pill form. That was capsule. That's
3:33
Speaker 2: totally above board. Now. But if I brought a bag
3:37
Speaker 2: of cashews, we might not be having this conversation today.
3:40
Speaker 1: That's true. You don't want to bring you never know
3:42
Speaker 1: what else you might bring. I'm just looking so for
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Speaker 1: our non coffee drink because then even our coffee drinkers
3:47
Speaker 1: that don't know what. So when you say a magic
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Speaker 1: coffee at the at the beginning, I thought you were
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Speaker 1: talking about a brand, But a magic is it's like
3:56
Speaker 1: you can have a lots out, you can have an espresso,
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Speaker 1: you can have a flat white, can have a cappuccino,
4:01
Speaker 1: and you can have a magic so magic.
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Speaker 2: So it's kind of it's kind of like a cross
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Speaker 2: between like flat white latte, and it has two extra
4:12
Speaker 2: powerful shots of espresso, like a special form of espresso
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Speaker 2: in it. It lands beautifully. It is just a beautiful
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Speaker 2: drink to start your day.
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Speaker 1: Wow, I've just googled it. I've just aided. A magic
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Speaker 1: coffee is a milk bake based espresso drink popular in Melbourne, Australia.
4:31
Speaker 1: Well you got that, characterized by its strong, smooth flavor
4:34
Speaker 1: and velvety texture. I feel like I'm fucking selling it now.
4:38
Speaker 1: It's essentially a double shot of rostretto. Well, a rostretto
4:42
Speaker 1: is a.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a special form of like concentrated espresso.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, combined with textured milk. It sounds too strong for me.
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Speaker 1: I'm a double shot in the morning, so I have
4:54
Speaker 1: a large, skinny lance, which is sounds fucking lame, doesn't it?
4:57
Speaker 1: With a double shot? And then I'm I might have
5:00
Speaker 1: a single shot around lunchtime. But how many of those
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Speaker 1: can you have a day without being fucking more manic
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Speaker 1: than you already are? Which is a not anyway like.
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Speaker 2: A magic Now, I just do one in the morning,
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Speaker 2: that's it, right, And then I could do it like
5:14
Speaker 2: something like a mushroom coffee in the afternoon.
5:18
Speaker 1: And how did you go on the way back? So
5:20
Speaker 1: you got in Australia and then you went home three
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Speaker 1: and a half days later, how did how was the
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Speaker 1: jet like? When? Now Thursday? So you got home. I'm Wednesday.
5:31
Speaker 1: Yeah you're Wednesday. Yeah yeah, So you got home kind
5:33
Speaker 1: of three days ago. How are you feeling? Today was
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Speaker 1: the worst day.
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Speaker 2: So I got home on Sunday and it was one
5:39
Speaker 2: of those things where I got home in the morning,
5:41
Speaker 2: so I stayed out all day. I was like, the
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Speaker 2: last thing I'm going to do is go home and
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Speaker 2: sit down anywhere, because I know what's going to happen
5:48
Speaker 2: and I'm just gonna be throwing to that cycle. So
5:51
Speaker 2: got home, went to sleep, woke up the next day,
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Speaker 2: felt fantastic, like zero jet lag. Then you know Tuesday.
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Speaker 2: Tuesday was a little bit of a I just had
6:00
Speaker 2: to lie down for like fifteen minutes, woke up, felt
6:04
Speaker 2: super charged. Last night I think I slept an hour,
6:09
Speaker 2: just could not sleep at all. Was trying to read
6:12
Speaker 2: like the cat was like, you know, eating my book
6:14
Speaker 2: as I'm like trying to turn the pages. And woke
6:18
Speaker 2: up today Today was a struggle. Got to a point
6:22
Speaker 2: where I felt great, and now I'm kind of like
6:24
Speaker 2: a little bit a little bit smashed because like I
6:28
Speaker 2: think it was the pine bar because I was feeling
6:29
Speaker 2: pretty good. You just get to like the evening hours
6:32
Speaker 2: and you just hit a wall at the conference. I
6:36
Speaker 2: wanted to go out with Boydy and you know, to
6:38
Speaker 2: like just the fellow presenters, and I just couldn't do it.
6:42
Speaker 2: I was like, there's just no way. The room was spinning.
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Speaker 2: So I had, like, I don't know, a cold ham sandwich,
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Speaker 2: which I mean sounds very depressing, but depressing, What is it?
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Speaker 1: What is it meant to do? Pine backing, And by
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Speaker 1: the way, as Bobby said, everybody, this is not on
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Speaker 1: any levelinical medical diagno recommendation. What is it meant to do?
7:07
Speaker 2: Like, do you know about they said it? They said
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Speaker 2: it helps with jet lag, and from what I was reading,
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Speaker 2: it's not going to kill you. So I thought, let
7:15
Speaker 2: me give it a try. That's about all I know,
7:17
Speaker 2: but I believe it did help my jet leg not
7:20
Speaker 2: saying that you should take it for jet lag, but.
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Speaker 1: Anyway, okay, so I'm reading right here pine bark specifically
7:26
Speaker 1: French maritime. Wow, that's specific pine bark as Pye cone
7:33
Speaker 1: pick no genal pick no genal has shown promise, has
7:37
Speaker 1: shown promise in reducing jet lag symptoms and severity of
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Speaker 1: jet lag. Studies suggest that can alleviate fatigue, grogginess, and
7:45
Speaker 1: insomnia and even reduced leg swelling. Oh, there you go,
7:49
Speaker 1: but I will.
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Speaker 2: Just they've had less leg swelling than normal. Wondering what
7:54
Speaker 2: that was.
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Speaker 1: Did you get home and Amy went, what, no cankles,
8:03
Speaker 1: You're not the man I'm married. No, I left them
8:07
Speaker 1: in the air. What do you do? Speaking of speaking
8:11
Speaker 1: of cognition, I've been having more and more conversations. In fact,
8:15
Speaker 1: I put up things yesterday about the cognitive benefits which
8:18
Speaker 1: are fucking vast by the way of strength training, which
8:22
Speaker 1: is no news to you, but there's a multitude of
8:26
Speaker 1: benefits for your brain as well as your body, of course.
8:28
Speaker 1: But you know, if you don't want to if you
8:30
Speaker 1: don't want to lift weights or do strength training, or
8:32
Speaker 1: go climb a rock wall or do some pilates or
8:35
Speaker 1: do some body weight stuff, if you don't want to
8:36
Speaker 1: do it for your biceps, do it for your brain.
8:40
Speaker 1: Do you have a particular protocol around you know, like,
8:45
Speaker 1: is there stuff that you do which is more intentional
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Speaker 1: rather than incidental for optimizing brain function, especially as you
8:57
Speaker 1: know you're in your fifties and I think think about
9:00
Speaker 1: it not all the time, but I'm very aware of
9:03
Speaker 1: trying to keep my brain some way close to what
9:07
Speaker 1: is optimal for me. Now, I just I just stay active.
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Speaker 2: I have plenty of movement. I was in the gym
9:14
Speaker 2: five six days a week. So when you talk about
9:17
Speaker 2: being intentional, I'm I'm quite methodical in terms of my
9:22
Speaker 2: programming my acute variables. I'm really careful. What happens to
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Speaker 2: me is when I go off my plan, it brings
9:32
Speaker 2: out the stupid in me. So, oh god, I was.
9:36
Speaker 2: I was listening to a session over at over in
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Speaker 2: the Gold Coast at the Anti Aging conference, where there
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Speaker 2: was a cardiologist taking a look at the number of
9:48
Speaker 2: people that are I'm home, I'm not stuffing this up,
9:51
Speaker 2: that are dying spontaneously between age fifty and sixty five.
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Speaker 2: And you know, there's a lot of theories on why
9:59
Speaker 2: this is happening. And what's interesting is these are people
10:02
Speaker 2: who are quite fit, and they've been fit their entire lives.
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Speaker 2: And what they were saying in the session was that
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Speaker 2: a lot of these people because we grew up in
10:11
Speaker 2: that whole environment of go hard or go home, you know,
10:15
Speaker 2: and then and we had a lot more destructive phase
10:18
Speaker 2: phrases than that, which I'm not going to go into
10:20
Speaker 2: on the podcast, but I'm sure you've uttered them, or
10:22
Speaker 2: at least have heard them a couple of times. And
10:26
Speaker 2: I remember training in my friend Oscar's basement and literally
10:31
Speaker 2: squatting until you vomit. Like if you didn't vomit, or
10:35
Speaker 2: if you didn't pass out and you couldn't stand, it
10:37
Speaker 2: wasn't a good workout. Utterly stupid when it comes to
10:41
Speaker 2: recovery and progress. But that's how hard we trained, because
10:44
Speaker 2: that was the mentality. And I did that for quite
10:47
Speaker 2: a few years. And then it turns out that a
10:49
Speaker 2: lot of these people damage their heart with the extreme
10:53
Speaker 2: training programs, whether it's extreme endurance or resistance training. But
10:58
Speaker 2: because of their level of fitness in their youth, they
11:00
Speaker 2: were able to compensate. And then you get to a
11:02
Speaker 2: certain age and you're not. And I'm just sitting in
11:04
Speaker 2: that class going one. How much superstition and fucking voodoo
11:10
Speaker 2: was the industry built on that did far more damage
11:13
Speaker 2: than it did good? Too? How screwed am I? Because
11:17
Speaker 2: I was one of those idiots, and that idiot comes
11:20
Speaker 2: out of me. Like when I was like forty six,
11:23
Speaker 2: went to the gym, everything was fine, a little bit
11:26
Speaker 2: short on time, really fatigued jet lagged because on the
11:30
Speaker 2: road constantly, and it was okay until there was no
11:34
Speaker 2: equipment like the gym. For whatever reason, the mid afternoon
11:37
Speaker 2: was packed. I was like, ah, you know what, I
11:40
Speaker 2: haven't used the Smith press for twenty five years for
11:43
Speaker 2: very good reason. Let me see what happens if I
11:46
Speaker 2: hop on a smith machine and just loaded up with
11:48
Speaker 2: as much weight as I could possibly move because I'm
11:51
Speaker 2: off my plan. And then I think about two months ago,
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Speaker 2: I dislocated my chromio clovicula joint.
12:00
Speaker 1: Hang on, but you didn't tell us what you did
12:01
Speaker 1: with the Smith machine.
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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I completely detached my left back.
12:08
Speaker 1: Story.
12:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, so my I felt like you ruptured. You pick
12:13
Speaker 2: ruptured my pack. When it first happened, I was like,
12:15
Speaker 2: oh God, please be a grade one or even a.
12:18
Speaker 1: Grade two tear.
12:19
Speaker 2: I'll deal with a grade two tear. I'll stick with it.
12:21
Speaker 2: I'll I'll just you know, coddle it for six months
12:25
Speaker 2: and then you're good to go. But no, it was
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Speaker 2: a it was a full rupture. Congratulations, genius. I feel
12:31
Speaker 2: like that full rupture is part of what contributed to
12:35
Speaker 2: my AC joint dislocation. I'm going for an m R tonight. Actually,
12:39
Speaker 2: after I get off with you.
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Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, I did the sign, but I did my
12:43
Speaker 1: right until my right pick. And if I'm wearing a
12:48
Speaker 1: single and you look hard, you can see that my
12:50
Speaker 1: left pick goes up higher to the you know where
12:52
Speaker 1: it's meant to go up to, and the left peck
12:55
Speaker 1: shorter and it attaches, you know, under nath and it's yeah,
12:59
Speaker 1: it's beautiful. It's beautiful things see. But also I relate
13:02
Speaker 1: to that. In the eighties, me and a made of
13:05
Speaker 1: mine would put on three plates each side on the
13:09
Speaker 1: leg press, which is sixty kilos each side to one
13:12
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty kilos, so not that heavy, but we
13:15
Speaker 1: would do sets of one hundred and so we would
13:18
Speaker 1: do one hundred reps, and we would have a bucket
13:21
Speaker 1: next to us, well actually a bin if I'm going
13:23
Speaker 1: to be honest, and we would just we would just
13:26
Speaker 1: keep going. And I know, I don't want to ruin
13:28
Speaker 1: anyone's breakfast or day, but yeah, the exact same thing.
13:31
Speaker 1: You would train until you spewed, and then when one
13:34
Speaker 1: of us would spew the other one would laugh no compassion,
13:39
Speaker 1: zero compassion, and like if he was spewing, I was
13:43
Speaker 1: pumping my arms in the air. Laughing at him as
13:46
Speaker 1: he was like I crouched over his bucket.
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Speaker 2: But that was a part that was part of the
13:51
Speaker 2: gall and and like, you know, you start to learn
13:53
Speaker 2: about like physiology and neurology recovery. It's like, god, that
13:59
Speaker 2: was that was a little bit overkill. Probably would have
14:01
Speaker 2: got much better results if you just backed off a
14:04
Speaker 2: little bit, because I remember, like, I don't think I
14:07
Speaker 2: even recovered between workouts because the day after leg day,
14:11
Speaker 2: I could hardly walk. I could not touch my toes
14:13
Speaker 2: to the ground. It took me like mental preparation. I
14:16
Speaker 2: had to meditate around getting out of bed. And it's
14:20
Speaker 2: like for me, I would get out and go, oh
14:21
Speaker 2: my god, what a great workout. I was like so
14:24
Speaker 2: excited for that feeling of not being able to walk.
14:28
Speaker 1: It's funny. And you know who's dragged the nine and
14:31
Speaker 1: eighties kind of mindset brutally into the twenty twenties is
14:36
Speaker 1: David Goggins. Right now. I'm in fact, I'm a fan.
14:41
Speaker 1: I'm not a fan of how he does everything, but
14:43
Speaker 1: I'm just mismerized, like, hey, everyone, definitely don't fucking do
14:48
Speaker 1: what he does. Definitely that is advice.
14:52
Speaker 2: He talks about running on broken bones and to the
14:55
Speaker 2: point where he's pissing blood.
14:58
Speaker 1: Oh, I've read both these books and to him, you know,
15:00
Speaker 1: interviewed a bunch of times, and he's he's, yeah, he's crazy,
15:05
Speaker 1: but it's amazing what people can do. But here's the
15:10
Speaker 1: here's the giant asterisk is that, Yeah, the cost is
15:15
Speaker 1: just you do a cost benefit analysis and you go, well,
15:18
Speaker 1: now you know, he's fifty and he's walking around in
15:22
Speaker 1: an eighty year old body or you know, like joints
15:24
Speaker 1: of an eighty year old and if he's happy, that's good.
15:27
Speaker 1: But there's so many old dudes. You know. Another one
15:30
Speaker 1: who people you'll definitely know, but and a few of
15:33
Speaker 1: our listeners will know, but not a lot. And in fact,
15:37
Speaker 1: if you want to look at something kind of interesting
15:39
Speaker 1: but also sad, is Ronnie Coleman. Bobby Oh so yeah,
15:43
Speaker 1: Ronnie Coleman. One. I can't remember everyone maybe eight mister Olympias,
15:48
Speaker 1: seven or eight mister Olympias and was just he literally
15:52
Speaker 1: like a fucking cartoon character. I mean, this dude in
15:56
Speaker 1: his heyday and he trained. To say trained hard is
16:01
Speaker 1: like saying that, you know, Texas is a little bit big,
16:05
Speaker 1: you know, it's like no, he didn't. He trained like
16:07
Speaker 1: a maniac all the time for a lot of years
16:09
Speaker 1: and now he's he's and he ain't that old. He
16:16
Speaker 1: ain't that old. He's in a lot of trouble and
16:18
Speaker 1: his back is completely fucked and he spends he can
16:21
Speaker 1: you know, he walks with sticks very awkwardly, or he's
16:24
Speaker 1: in a wheelchair. And you know that's just and he's
16:27
Speaker 1: spoken about it. It's just a byproduct of what he
16:29
Speaker 1: did to his body. Because you get this, you know,
16:32
Speaker 1: there's a point where training hard is training stupid. So
16:35
Speaker 1: we need to be finding the right level of intensity
16:39
Speaker 1: to create the kind of physiological adaptation we want while
16:43
Speaker 1: not putting ourself in harm's way. And that's you know that.
16:47
Speaker 1: And the complication of that is that there's no equation
16:52
Speaker 1: for that. There's no absolute equation because the equation or
16:56
Speaker 1: the formula or the protocol is different to Bobby, to me,
17:00
Speaker 1: to you the listener. And that's the thing is trying
17:02
Speaker 1: to figure out how hard, how much, how often, how
17:05
Speaker 1: much recovery, what food, what's good for my genetics at
17:09
Speaker 1: my age, with my background, with my medical issues. And
17:12
Speaker 1: so this is why when someone says to you, oh,
17:15
Speaker 1: you know what you should do. Just say to them,
17:18
Speaker 1: yes I do, and don't let because they definitely don't know.
17:24
Speaker 2: You know they well, that reeks of inexperience and lack
17:27
Speaker 2: of expertise, because expertise is built on distinctions, and if
17:31
Speaker 2: you're speaking in broader generalizations, there are distinctions lacking from
17:36
Speaker 2: whatever recommendation you're making. It's a clear sign that someone
17:40
Speaker 2: lacks the level of expertise to have transference between what
17:44
Speaker 2: works for them and even coming close to discerning what
17:47
Speaker 2: works for you. I want to explore a part of
17:50
Speaker 2: this because I think there's something interesting here. But yeah,
17:53
Speaker 2: here's what I'm curious about. If if your goal was
17:56
Speaker 2: to be one of the greatest legends anything, right, So
18:00
Speaker 2: let's see bodybuilding, and you knew you would win let's
18:04
Speaker 2: say seventy eight times the mister Olympia. Yeah, but after
18:10
Speaker 2: that you would pay for it in an extreme way.
18:13
Speaker 2: You'd be wheelchair bound. Yeah, under what circumstances, if there
18:18
Speaker 2: are even circumstances, would you be like, you know what,
18:21
Speaker 2: that is a that is a fair trade?
18:23
Speaker 1: This is that important to me? Yeah? None for me,
18:29
Speaker 1: for me personally, But I know a lot of people
18:32
Speaker 1: would say, yeah, you know if I mean, I've spoken
18:36
Speaker 1: to Olympic athletes who have said, if I could win
18:42
Speaker 1: an Olympic gold medal, you know when I'm twenty four
18:45
Speaker 1: and die when I'm fifty, and know that that's the cost,
18:48
Speaker 1: I'd take the medal. And I don't know that that's
18:53
Speaker 1: right or wrong because I'm looking through the crate window.
18:56
Speaker 1: I mean, a lot of us would go, are you
18:58
Speaker 1: fucking kidding? Like I look at Ronnie Coleman and you
19:00
Speaker 1: could have said to me, Craig, you could have one
19:02
Speaker 1: hundred million dollars and twenty mister Olympias, but your body's
19:06
Speaker 1: going to end up where you're in constant chronic pain
19:09
Speaker 1: and you can't go no, no, not on any planet,
19:15
Speaker 1: not in any way. But but I think that's the
19:18
Speaker 1: thing is, like, you know, I realized that that my
19:23
Speaker 1: my perspective is just my perspective, and I think what
19:26
Speaker 1: is really what would work for me might not be
19:30
Speaker 1: the right thing for you. You might go, you know what,
19:33
Speaker 1: fuck it? I would rather go hard and then go
19:35
Speaker 1: home and have, you know, have thirty ridiculous years and
19:38
Speaker 1: then fucking slide into my twilight or whatever. What about
19:42
Speaker 1: you would you do that?
19:44
Speaker 2: I probably would because my party's already racked.
19:47
Speaker 1: I'm going for an MRI.
19:48
Speaker 2: I'm already excruciating pain, and I have zero mister Olympias
19:52
Speaker 2: to my name, so might as well have a few
19:53
Speaker 2: mister Olympias if it's going to wind up like this anyway.
19:56
Speaker 2: But that's that's the power of hindsight. What's in interesting
20:00
Speaker 2: for me is like David Goggins. And I'm not saying
20:02
Speaker 2: this is the case with David Goggins, because the only
20:05
Speaker 2: person who is an expert on David Goggins is probably
20:09
Speaker 2: David Goggins. But I've heard a little bit of a story,
20:14
Speaker 2: and he came from a really rough upbringing and experience
20:18
Speaker 2: some things that some people would define as you know,
20:23
Speaker 2: adverse childhood experiences. Yeah, definitely early childhood trauma. And I
20:31
Speaker 2: think about when I got into extra it wasn't just
20:34
Speaker 2: about exercise. That wasn't it for me, Like I was
20:38
Speaker 2: not thinking when I started exercising, shit, you know, if
20:42
Speaker 2: I do this, I could get better at sport and
20:44
Speaker 2: you know this, this could help my longevity and cognition
20:47
Speaker 2: later in life. That wasn't any of it. What I
20:50
Speaker 2: was trying to do was disappear. First of all doing
20:55
Speaker 2: something where I could be isolated and do it on
20:58
Speaker 2: my own.
21:00
Speaker 1: To stop, stop stop, stop stop. What do you mean
21:02
Speaker 1: you wanted to disappear? Explain that to us? Well, I was.
21:08
Speaker 2: I was very conspicuous looking as a kid like I
21:12
Speaker 2: got noticed from my appearance a lot.
21:14
Speaker 1: And so probably half our listeners haven't heard without telling
21:18
Speaker 1: the whole story. But to the people had done on
21:21
Speaker 1: what that means.
21:22
Speaker 2: Well, it wasn't for the same reason that Brad Pitt
21:25
Speaker 2: probably got noticed a lot when he was in school.
21:28
Speaker 2: I had facial deformities and they were quite noticeable and
21:33
Speaker 2: turette's so I would tick constantly and just just weird
21:38
Speaker 2: behaviors and outbursts things like that. So I mean, which
21:43
Speaker 2: is I guess you know normal in Melbourne, But where
21:47
Speaker 2: I was growing up, those types of nurst stand like
21:51
Speaker 2: nobody would have noticed, like he's one of us, So
21:55
Speaker 2: it would get a lot of negative attention. A lot
21:59
Speaker 2: of times I would get the piss taken out of
22:02
Speaker 2: me by my teachers that didn't know what it was
22:05
Speaker 2: and just not really dealing with it in a resourceful way.
22:09
Speaker 2: And I didn't do very well socially because people would
22:13
Speaker 2: constantly bring up. Fucking hell, you look like a horror show.
22:18
Speaker 1: Fuck house. Stop that. How is it being this ugly?
22:22
Speaker 2: Like I used to get that every single day in school,
22:26
Speaker 2: where somebody would would mention something. So I thought, if
22:29
Speaker 2: I go to the gym and I really developed my
22:32
Speaker 2: body one, maybe I could detract attention like from my face.
22:36
Speaker 2: You know, like when you have a real shit car
22:38
Speaker 2: when you're young and you think, oh, I'll just throw
22:39
Speaker 2: a pair of rims on it. All good.
22:41
Speaker 1: It's kind of like that thinking.
22:43
Speaker 2: And then the second thought was, I don't need to
22:46
Speaker 2: do this with a team. It's not like when I'm
22:49
Speaker 2: on a wrestling team. You know, I've got my teammates.
22:52
Speaker 2: I could do this totally on my own. I could
22:54
Speaker 2: just put my head down and get into it. But
22:56
Speaker 2: what I started to notice was I gravitated towards.
22:59
Speaker 1: Extra high intensity.
23:01
Speaker 2: And I think the intensity was if I could be
23:05
Speaker 2: so obsessed and dedicated and put myself through extreme physical pain,
23:12
Speaker 2: it was almost a reprieve from the deeply rooted emotional
23:16
Speaker 2: and psychological pain of unresolved trauma. Because I was also
23:20
Speaker 2: like going through what can only be described as torture
23:24
Speaker 2: at home. So it was pretty brutal. It was like
23:27
Speaker 2: the experiences you would get if you were in like
23:31
Speaker 2: a third world prison where human rights was not that
23:34
Speaker 2: big of an issue. That's the kind of stuff I
23:36
Speaker 2: was going through at home. So for me, it wasn't
23:39
Speaker 2: a matter of getting out of pain. It was going
23:41
Speaker 2: deeper into the pain. And I kind of wonder, and
23:46
Speaker 2: you never know, and this is probably might even be
23:48
Speaker 2: a stupid assumption on my part, but I do wonder
23:52
Speaker 2: how many people go deeply into extremism and pain as
23:56
Speaker 2: a way of reconciling a different level of pain that
24:00
Speaker 2: is not as tolerable because you can't define it and
24:03
Speaker 2: you can't control it. So if you're pushing yourself until
24:06
Speaker 2: you have nothing left, and you make that decision to
24:09
Speaker 2: go one rep more, one step more, you know, at
24:12
Speaker 2: least there's a locus of control as opposed to having
24:17
Speaker 2: that pain be imposed upon you in a state of
24:20
Speaker 2: learned helplessness. So I wonder that a lot. But I mean,
24:24
Speaker 2: I guess when you get older you see things differently.
24:28
Speaker 2: So this is kind of a cliche question, but it's
24:30
Speaker 2: a very interesting one. If you went to bed and
24:35
Speaker 2: you woke up in like one of those like budget
24:38
Speaker 2: films and you you went back in time and you
24:43
Speaker 2: could talk to eighteen year old Craig Harper. What kind
24:49
Speaker 2: of conversation would you want to have?
24:51
Speaker 1: We'll just say, yeah, what would I want to say?
24:58
Speaker 1: I think I would. I mean, look, I don't know
25:04
Speaker 1: if this would be I don't know if anything would
25:06
Speaker 1: make any difference. And I don't know if eighteen year
25:08
Speaker 1: old me would want to listen to six year old me.
25:11
Speaker 1: So but I guess I would want eighteen year old
25:17
Speaker 1: me to know that he's not as stupid as he thinks,
25:23
Speaker 1: because I felt, really I felt very inept. I felt
25:30
Speaker 1: very and I don't know why. It's not like I
25:33
Speaker 1: was living in a house of Genie I or I
25:35
Speaker 1: was surrounded by fucking MENSA candidates or astronauts. I don't
25:40
Speaker 1: know why, but I just, you know, I don't know,
25:44
Speaker 1: don't know, but yeah, I'd probably just want to be
25:47
Speaker 1: encouraging and say, you know, try stuff like I wish.
25:51
Speaker 1: Not that I think going to university is necessarily a
25:54
Speaker 1: great achievement at all, but for me, my first time
25:57
Speaker 1: at university was good, not even for the agree but
26:01
Speaker 1: just for me to go, oh, you're not stupid. You
26:03
Speaker 1: can study you can apply yourself. You can you can
26:06
Speaker 1: do this stuff that you didn't think you could do.
26:08
Speaker 1: So for me getting into university and getting into Green
26:12
Speaker 1: Exose Science and then maybe even more importantly, getting asked
26:15
Speaker 1: to be a lecturer the following year after my because
26:18
Speaker 1: I was already in my mid thirties and I owned
26:20
Speaker 1: multiple gyms and all of that, so they knew I
26:22
Speaker 1: had a big background in programming people in exercise. But
26:26
Speaker 1: all of that was you know, very for me. It
26:31
Speaker 1: kind of filled me with confidence and so yeah, and also,
26:37
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if I would have listened,
26:39
Speaker 1: but I mean I had so many you know, we
26:43
Speaker 1: all have issues, but I had so many, you know,
26:46
Speaker 1: issues about my body and body dysmorphia and eating and
26:50
Speaker 1: self esteem and ego and self loathing, and you know,
26:55
Speaker 1: I didn't think a lot of myself at all. And
26:58
Speaker 1: they're not I'm not doing this in a self pity way.
27:01
Speaker 1: I just didn't. And what's what's interesting was I didn't
27:05
Speaker 1: have any of the hardship you had. I didn't have it.
27:08
Speaker 1: Like I didn't even though I was a fat kid
27:10
Speaker 1: and I was called jumbo, it wasn't really spite for
27:13
Speaker 1: it sounds weird, but like I didn't have like my
27:17
Speaker 1: life was really not. I mean, it wasn't a fucking
27:20
Speaker 1: Disney movie, but it was. It wasn't compared to yours.
27:23
Speaker 1: It was a Disney movie, right, And I know what
27:25
Speaker 1: you went through in your life was hard. But for
27:28
Speaker 1: whatever reason, I thought I was shit. So I would
27:31
Speaker 1: just want to, you know, encourage me, I guess, to
27:37
Speaker 1: to try more stuff. Like I didn't try stuff till
27:40
Speaker 1: I was although I did open Australia's first PT center
27:44
Speaker 1: at twenty six, so that's something. But yeah, I really
27:48
Speaker 1: I really pigeonholed myself in a bad way. So but
27:52
Speaker 1: I don't know. I wonder if you would even listen.
27:55
Speaker 2: So let's say you go back and you're having this
27:58
Speaker 2: conversation with younger you, and younger Craig Harper does believe
28:03
Speaker 2: you and buys into Wait, I do have here's the
28:07
Speaker 2: guy for my future. He would know, right if anybody
28:10
Speaker 2: would know, it's the guy who's you know, traveled through
28:12
Speaker 2: space and time. And this isn't a weird conversation at all,
28:16
Speaker 2: quite typical. And he told me I have a lot
28:18
Speaker 2: of agency. I'm going to take him at his word,
28:22
Speaker 2: having confidence in your level of agency at eighteen. Do
28:25
Speaker 2: you think younger Craig Harper would have tried different stuff
28:28
Speaker 2: and chosen a different path than the one that you
28:32
Speaker 2: that you did as part of your history.
28:35
Speaker 1: If that, yeah, I think so. I think so. I mean,
28:39
Speaker 1: like all the shit that you go through shapes you,
28:41
Speaker 1: molds you kind of in part, along with genetics and
28:45
Speaker 1: a few other variables in part kind of makes you
28:47
Speaker 1: who you are. But yeah, like looking back, if I
28:55
Speaker 1: was sixteen and I was going to be aiding in
28:57
Speaker 1: two years and I was, I would study exceptionally hard
29:02
Speaker 1: and I would probably try to get into medicine. Not
29:07
Speaker 1: because I necessarily wanted to be a doctor, but I
29:10
Speaker 1: would like that. I wouldn't mind being a doctor for
29:13
Speaker 1: a while. But I think that's a really good starting
29:15
Speaker 1: point for all the stuff that you know. I am
29:19
Speaker 1: fascinated in mind stuff, body stuff, you know, all all
29:22
Speaker 1: of the kind of the fundamentals around health. I think, yeah,
29:26
Speaker 1: if I went back in time, I would probably start
29:30
Speaker 1: off and do medicine, and that would be for me
29:33
Speaker 1: a platform to other stuff that's interesting.
29:37
Speaker 2: So like when you see young people, I think that's
29:40
Speaker 2: why you know, a lot of times you're messaging is
29:45
Speaker 2: might really resonate with the eighteen to twenty four craft
29:49
Speaker 2: because wow, it's it's something that it's a hook they
29:54
Speaker 2: can hang.
29:55
Speaker 1: Their hat on.
29:55
Speaker 2: It's like, wow, Okay, Like if I adapt this mindset,
30:00
Speaker 2: I can develop myself into this person and I can
30:04
Speaker 2: have this level of capacity because I want the people
30:08
Speaker 2: who seem to appear as wandering generalities rather than meaningful specifics.
30:15
Speaker 2: And maybe it's not a lack of focus or direction.
30:17
Speaker 2: Maybe inwardly it's a lack of belief. And that's kind
30:21
Speaker 2: of a hard thing to admit, because well, if I
30:24
Speaker 2: don't believe, where am I? So the only thing that
30:27
Speaker 2: worse than not believing in your own ability is acknowledging
30:31
Speaker 2: sometimes your own learned helplessness. And I wonder if that's
30:36
Speaker 2: kind of an issue along with, you know, the expectation
30:39
Speaker 2: that you're going to have shit figured out, like life
30:42
Speaker 2: should be a linear path. Like you you go and
30:45
Speaker 2: you graduate, and then you get a higher degree and
30:48
Speaker 2: then higher education and then you know, you get a
30:50
Speaker 2: job and you just move from like the seventeenth floor
30:53
Speaker 2: to the nineteenth floor. You got a corner office, and
30:56
Speaker 2: then like two years before you die, they give you
31:00
Speaker 2: kind of like.
31:01
Speaker 1: A watch, and it's like that's frinding me.
31:05
Speaker 2: But that's the trajectory you're supposed to be on. Go
31:08
Speaker 2: to school, get good grades, get a good job with
31:09
Speaker 2: benefits security. How's that working out? And it's like I
31:15
Speaker 2: think sometimes when you have a clear purpose in mind,
31:18
Speaker 2: it's cultivated through not screwing around, but trying different shit,
31:22
Speaker 2: like doing really odd jobs that have absolutely nothing to
31:25
Speaker 2: do with one another. I know that's a regret I
31:27
Speaker 2: have is a lot of the stuff I've done have
31:30
Speaker 2: been in the same category where shit, what would it
31:33
Speaker 2: be like to be a waiter on a cruise ship?
31:37
Speaker 2: You know, what would it be like to be a
31:39
Speaker 2: performer in theater. Because none of that stuff's wasted. You're
31:43
Speaker 2: learning life skills and some diversity that when you come
31:48
Speaker 2: back to your chosen purpose, you have such a broader
31:54
Speaker 2: depth of experiences and resources to pull from. So I
31:58
Speaker 2: think there's got to be a little bit of screwing
31:59
Speaker 2: around in life if you're going to be serious, like
32:03
Speaker 2: serious play.
32:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel very passionate about And the reason everyone
32:09
Speaker 1: Bobby said aden to twenty four is because we were
32:12
Speaker 1: talking before we went live about my Instagram followers and Weirdly,
32:16
Speaker 1: I don't even know why, but weirdly, my biggest or
32:20
Speaker 1: the biggest group that reads my stuff or follows my
32:23
Speaker 1: stuff on Instagram as ad ends twenty four, the ad
32:26
Speaker 1: end to twenty four group, which is definitely not the
32:30
Speaker 1: demographic that listens to this show, although we do have
32:34
Speaker 1: that group, but not such high representation. But yeah, I
32:39
Speaker 1: feel very passionately about helping people, helping young people to
32:46
Speaker 1: understand their potential and to try because I didn't understand.
32:54
Speaker 1: And it's not like, oh I was so gifted and
32:57
Speaker 1: I just didn't know. No, it's not that at all.
32:59
Speaker 1: It's just like I wasn't as big a fuck up
33:01
Speaker 1: as I thought. Of course I was a bit of
33:04
Speaker 1: a fuck up, but also at times I was a
33:06
Speaker 1: bit brilliant. At times I did shit great, at times
33:09
Speaker 1: I did shit terribly. But MY biggest problem between fifteen
33:16
Speaker 1: and thirty was not my genetic potential, my intellect, my
33:22
Speaker 1: innate ability or talent, or environment or situation, but it
33:28
Speaker 1: was how I thought about myself, how I thought, you know,
33:33
Speaker 1: in that metacognitive why am I the way I am?
33:35
Speaker 1: And why do I think I'm so shit? And where
33:36
Speaker 1: does that come from? And why do I have all
33:39
Speaker 1: of these self limiting beliefs and are they true? And
33:41
Speaker 1: what's the origin story of this thing? You know, all
33:45
Speaker 1: of that stuff which we don't even understand how to do.
33:49
Speaker 1: And I meet people all the time that I'm pretty
33:54
Speaker 1: sure they're pretty fucking gifted, at least at a few things.
33:59
Speaker 1: But when I hear them talk about themselves, I'm like,
34:01
Speaker 1: oh my god, your problem is not that you're not brilliant.
34:05
Speaker 1: Your problem is that you don't know how brilliant you
34:07
Speaker 1: can be. And I know that sounds like a well
34:09
Speaker 1: worn message that people give, but it's true. Which doesn't
34:13
Speaker 1: mean all people can do all things. That's also bullshit.
34:16
Speaker 1: And all you need to do is you know, outwork
34:18
Speaker 1: everyone in the room. That's also bullshit because there are
34:21
Speaker 1: lots of other variables. But I think in general terms,
34:25
Speaker 1: people underestimate themselves drastically. Yeah.
34:29
Speaker 2: I think that we don't appreciate environment. And most what's
34:36
Speaker 2: in our environment is our engagement with other people and
34:39
Speaker 2: how that influences and shapes our behaviors and our beliefs
34:43
Speaker 2: in our sense of identity, who we believe we are
34:46
Speaker 2: or probably more profound, who we believe we're in not
34:50
Speaker 2: so I think something came up like at this conference
34:53
Speaker 2: a week ago, where I forgot what it was. It
34:55
Speaker 2: was a question, and it reminded me of the Chamber
34:59
Speaker 2: Meads study by Aliah Crumb and and Langer, two brilliant researchers,
35:06
Speaker 2: and Aliah Crumb had already proved that your beliefs can
35:12
Speaker 2: alter your physiology. It can alter your hormonal profile. In
35:16
Speaker 2: this case one particular study, it mitigated grellin release you,
35:20
Speaker 2: so people would have a higher sense of saciety just
35:24
Speaker 2: based on what they believed. This Chamber made study was
35:28
Speaker 2: really interesting where they took eighty five individual believe women
35:33
Speaker 2: across seven different locations hotel chains, and they asked them all,
35:38
Speaker 2: like how many of you are consistent exercisers and they
35:42
Speaker 2: all classified themselves as non exercises, like we're working all day, right,
35:45
Speaker 2: we're part of the housekeeping staff. No, we don't exercise,
35:48
Speaker 2: And so they just took a couple of metrics. So
35:51
Speaker 2: they took BMI, they took blood pressure, they took body weight,
35:56
Speaker 2: and they broke these eighty five people into two separate
35:59
Speaker 2: grips groups and one group they just took the biometrics
36:04
Speaker 2: and that was it. The other group they took the
36:06
Speaker 2: biometrics and they said, you know, based on the total
36:10
Speaker 2: calculation of your daily physical activity, you go beyond what's
36:15
Speaker 2: considered an exerciser. You exercise more than someone who goes
36:18
Speaker 2: to the gym three days a week regularly.
36:20
Speaker 1: Yeah.
36:21
Speaker 2: Wow, that was astonishing, Like, I never considered myself an exerciser.
36:25
Speaker 2: So being that they had from expert proof that they
36:29
Speaker 2: were exercisers, it reshaped their sense of identity. Thirty days
36:33
Speaker 2: later when they came back, that particular group positively altered
36:38
Speaker 2: their BMI, blood pressure and body weight with no self
36:42
Speaker 2: reported changes in behavior. That's powerful.
36:46
Speaker 1: So on the one hand, it.
36:47
Speaker 2: Could be my beliefs changed my physiology to the point
36:53
Speaker 2: where it brought about an efficacious response. The other thing
36:57
Speaker 2: I wonder is is there a difference in the way
37:01
Speaker 2: a non exerciser pushes that really heavy linen cart down
37:07
Speaker 2: the hole versus someone who believes themselves to be an exerciser.
37:12
Speaker 2: What's the peace, what's the rate, what's the intensity, what's
37:15
Speaker 2: the effort? Now, if you do that across all physically
37:18
Speaker 2: demanding activities in a day, every day, five six days
37:21
Speaker 2: a week, for thirty days, that's going to create a
37:24
Speaker 2: different response, and the only thing that really changed is
37:28
Speaker 2: how they saw themselves, what they believed about themselves that
37:32
Speaker 2: they previously did. No, it's powerful.
37:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I love that study. And it
37:39
Speaker 1: slides into the milkshake study. That is that it slides
37:43
Speaker 1: into you know, plus ebos and no cebows and like
37:48
Speaker 1: in a dream, like you think you're having a dream
37:50
Speaker 1: that you're in trouble or you're under some imminent threat
37:54
Speaker 1: or danger, and the reality is you're not. You're home,
37:57
Speaker 1: you're safe, you're in bed, you're comfortable. The world is good,
37:59
Speaker 1: you are good. You're not going to get hurt. But
38:02
Speaker 1: in that moment, in that dream, you believe you are
38:05
Speaker 1: and so therefore so does your body. So you know,
38:09
Speaker 1: all your bits go into stressed. You know you you
38:13
Speaker 1: know the deal, your endocrime system and nervous system, and
38:15
Speaker 1: you cartio vascular and respiratory system. Everything goes, everything gets
38:20
Speaker 1: jacked up as though you're actually in some kind of
38:23
Speaker 1: real danger. But your body can't tell the difference between
38:27
Speaker 1: what you think is real and what is real, so
38:29
Speaker 1: it responds accordingly despite the fact that this is well, no,
38:34
Speaker 1: you're not having a six hundred calorie milkshake. You're actually
38:37
Speaker 1: having this milkshake, so you know, or you're having one
38:41
Speaker 1: hundred calorie milkshake not the three hundred or whatever it is.
38:44
Speaker 1: Or no, that pill you're taking is not actually a painkiller.
38:48
Speaker 1: It's it's a pillful of nothing, but your headache went
38:52
Speaker 1: away because you thought it was a pillful of something.
38:55
Speaker 2: I think people downplay that. They dismiss it like, oh, well,
38:58
Speaker 2: that's a psychosomatic It's no, it's not psych or somatic
39:01
Speaker 2: at all. It's not in your head. You're not imagining it.
39:04
Speaker 2: It's psychogenic, is what it is. You're getting a real
39:07
Speaker 2: physiological response in some cases as if you were taking
39:12
Speaker 2: that thing. So it's like when it comes to our
39:15
Speaker 2: own bardies, beliefs are extremely powerful something.
39:19
Speaker 1: That like, sorry you think about I fucking love this topic,
39:23
Speaker 1: but you think about if you're a pharmaceutical company, you
39:29
Speaker 1: definitely don't want people figuring out how they can get
39:31
Speaker 1: rid of their headaches without headache tablets. You know what
39:35
Speaker 1: I'm saying. Imagine because obviously if there was another study,
39:42
Speaker 1: I think you probably know. I think it was done
39:44
Speaker 1: in New York. I could be wrong, but people who
39:46
Speaker 1: had all these fake knee arthroscopes so there was like
39:50
Speaker 1: I think patience and like ninety hadn't you know, they
39:54
Speaker 1: all had these dodgy knees where they needed like an
39:58
Speaker 1: arthroscope and a clean up because they were all in pain.
40:01
Speaker 1: It wasn't a rico or anything like that, but they
40:04
Speaker 1: needed surgery. And so half of the people they're all
40:09
Speaker 1: in the kind of similar, you know, medically similar medical position,
40:15
Speaker 1: and half they gave the actual surgery and half they
40:17
Speaker 1: did an incision but did no surgery, but they believed
40:22
Speaker 1: that they were having the surgery. And the surgical outcomes well, firstly,
40:25
Speaker 1: the people who didn't have the actual invasive surgery, they
40:28
Speaker 1: did get an incision in the knee, but there was
40:32
Speaker 1: no further surgery. They recovered obviously quicker because there was
40:36
Speaker 1: less soft tissue trauma. But then you know, over the
40:41
Speaker 1: subsequent six and twelve months, their clinical outcomes were as
40:45
Speaker 1: good or better because they believed they had the thing
40:48
Speaker 1: but they didn't have the trauma. Like that's just fucking amazing.
40:52
Speaker 2: It is amazing. But for the rest of us that
40:55
Speaker 2: are not in those constructed settings, I think it's there.
41:00
Speaker 1: It's a matter of behavior change.
41:02
Speaker 2: Like of all the things that drive self efficacy and
41:05
Speaker 2: alter your self concept mastery based experiences. According to Albert Bandura,
41:10
Speaker 2: is the most powerful in elevating self efficacy because it's
41:15
Speaker 2: not like I can, you know, have a headache and go, yeah,
41:18
Speaker 2: I believe I've taken a neurofin.
41:19
Speaker 1: I know I haven't taken a eurofin.
41:21
Speaker 2: So the more I'm like I've taken an eurofin, the
41:23
Speaker 2: more it reminds me of the fact I have it.
41:25
Speaker 2: You know, if if I'm someone who, like when I
41:28
Speaker 2: was younger with my deformed face, even if I had
41:31
Speaker 2: after I had my face like fixed, if I went
41:34
Speaker 2: out and I was like, well, I'm good looking, but
41:36
Speaker 2: you know, I didn't actually feel that at the time.
41:40
Speaker 2: The more I would say that, the more it would
41:42
Speaker 2: make the distance between what I was saying and how
41:45
Speaker 2: I truly felt obvious. So it'd make the situation worse,
41:49
Speaker 2: not better. Like you know, in the milkshake study, if
41:52
Speaker 2: somebody tells me you're having a six hundred plus Cowaldry
41:54
Speaker 2: milkshake and it's only two hundred plus coroies, I wouldn't
41:58
Speaker 2: doubt that. You know, Like you go to a restaurant
42:00
Speaker 2: and go, well, here's the chicken. My first response is
42:03
Speaker 2: not bullshit. I bet you this fish in there. It's
42:05
Speaker 2: just you know, you don't do stuff like that. So
42:08
Speaker 2: the only the the way around that is to build
42:14
Speaker 2: an irrefutable body of evidence, like you said, by trying
42:17
Speaker 2: stuff and trying stuff that's not outside of your scope
42:21
Speaker 2: of confidence, but also not too far within it. That's
42:25
Speaker 2: challenging but attainable. Over time, you start to elevate that
42:29
Speaker 2: level of belief.
42:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what we need take our message, we need
42:34
Speaker 1: a doctor who'll lie to us and go, yeah, you
42:37
Speaker 1: know this is yep, yep, this is penadene thought. Yep.
42:41
Speaker 2: Just take more dishonest doctors.
42:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that could be the.
42:46
Speaker 2: I feel that's not the message I want to land on.
42:49
Speaker 1: No, not at all, not at all, but it is.
42:51
Speaker 1: It is true though. It's like knowing that Placebo's work
42:55
Speaker 1: is one thing, but you can't trick yourself because you know,
43:00
Speaker 1: you know, I wonder how we can leverage that knowledge,
43:04
Speaker 1: and I wonder, like I do remember, I feel like
43:09
Speaker 1: I'm probably going to throw myself under the bus here,
43:11
Speaker 1: but I do remember back in the day, you know,
43:15
Speaker 1: when people would come to the gym, you know, one
43:18
Speaker 1: of my gyms, especially somebody who's brand new and let's
43:24
Speaker 1: say they're twenty thirty forty fifty kilos overweight, or you know,
43:29
Speaker 1: in pounds whatever, eighty ninety one hundred pounds overweight, and
43:33
Speaker 1: they wanted to you know, they were there for that,
43:36
Speaker 1: that reason for weight last for and they're embarrassed, and
43:40
Speaker 1: they didn't like how they looked, and they were self
43:42
Speaker 1: conscious in a gym and all of those things. And
43:44
Speaker 1: quite often I would tell them a story about someone
43:47
Speaker 1: who came in, you know, like three weeks ago, who's
43:50
Speaker 1: literally you know, bigger than them, and you know, less
43:53
Speaker 1: fit than them and less healthy than them, and you know,
43:56
Speaker 1: they're they're now three weeks in and they've done this
43:59
Speaker 1: and they've done that, and that person may or may
44:01
Speaker 1: not have existed, right, but just to see that person
44:05
Speaker 1: go oh really, I go, oh yeah, one hundred percent,
44:07
Speaker 1: you know, or whatever, I'm just like telling a little
44:10
Speaker 1: bit of a white lie because I want them to
44:12
Speaker 1: have a bit of belief. And by the way, of course,
44:14
Speaker 1: I did work with many people like that, so I
44:16
Speaker 1: probably didn't have to bend the truth. But just to
44:21
Speaker 1: like to tell someone, oh, you can do it is
44:24
Speaker 1: not the same as or perhaps not as powerful as
44:28
Speaker 1: well like, here's the thing I used to do where
44:30
Speaker 1: there's no deception. So a woman would come into the gym,
44:35
Speaker 1: and it's different now, but in the old days women
44:37
Speaker 1: were terrified of weight training, like in the nineties and
44:41
Speaker 1: even the early naughties some such a stupid name the naughties. Anyway,
44:47
Speaker 1: but I'd regularly have ladies who would come into the
44:50
Speaker 1: gym and they'd really balk at the idea of strength
44:53
Speaker 1: training because they would say to me, shit, like I
44:56
Speaker 1: don't want to end up like you. I'm like, oh, dear, okay,
45:01
Speaker 1: And so I would walk them across the gym floor
45:04
Speaker 1: to meet one of my trainers, who a female trainer
45:07
Speaker 1: who is in great shape, and I'd go, this is
45:10
Speaker 1: whoever you know, blah blah blah, and I'd say, what
45:14
Speaker 1: do you think? What do you think of that shape? Oh,
45:17
Speaker 1: she looks incredible. And then I'd go to her, how
45:21
Speaker 1: often do you lift weights? And invariably they'd say four
45:23
Speaker 1: or five days a week, and I'd go and you
45:26
Speaker 1: didn't turn into a man, you know. And so all
45:29
Speaker 1: of a sudden, this person who's got a belief that
45:32
Speaker 1: if I lift weights, I'm going to look like a man,
45:34
Speaker 1: meets somebody you know of the same gender, who lifts weights,
45:40
Speaker 1: who lifts heavyweights, who's real strong? Who does not only
45:44
Speaker 1: do they not look like a man, they look fucking
45:46
Speaker 1: like an athletic, amazing female. Then all of a sudden,
45:50
Speaker 1: in thirty seconds, complete mindset shift.
45:54
Speaker 2: Oh is that what the women meant when they said
45:59
Speaker 2: I don't want to lift way so I'm afraid I'm
46:01
Speaker 2: going to turn out like you. I misinterpreted. I was like, Oh,
46:04
Speaker 2: don't worry. This is the result of a whole series
46:07
Speaker 2: of bad life choices. It has nothing to do with
46:09
Speaker 2: the weight training.
46:11
Speaker 3: No, No, they're two separate things.
46:16
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, well, you know, I think, what's the techon
46:20
Speaker 1: message today? What's the techon what are we going to
46:24
Speaker 1: call this episode?
46:26
Speaker 2: You want to lie to people, but only a little
46:28
Speaker 2: bit and sometimes.
46:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, lying for good reason? Is it okay? Is it
46:37
Speaker 1: go on?
46:38
Speaker 2: My wife had a falling out with chat GPT because
46:40
Speaker 2: of that, because I had said, because she's trying to
46:43
Speaker 2: like sort out how to use chat GPT, and one
46:46
Speaker 2: of the things I'd recommended is have chat GPT go
46:49
Speaker 2: through some of the stuff.
46:50
Speaker 1: You've created, like your films.
46:51
Speaker 2: I was talking about, like scripts and stuff and tell
46:55
Speaker 2: you like, here's here's your strengths as a writer, here's
46:58
Speaker 2: what you could do to be even better, and just
47:00
Speaker 2: use it as a thought partner. So my wife was like, oh,
47:02
Speaker 2: could you watch this movie and tell me, like what
47:05
Speaker 2: you really liked about it?
47:07
Speaker 1: What could have been better done?
47:09
Speaker 2: And chat GPT gave her this whole dissertation on an answer,
47:14
Speaker 2: but she was like, wait a minute, like did you
47:18
Speaker 2: Later on it said that it couldn't watch movies, so
47:21
Speaker 2: she said, tell me about this particular scene and it
47:25
Speaker 2: was talking itself in circles, and finally my wife was like,
47:27
Speaker 2: you didn't watch my movie, did you? And chat GPTWO
47:29
Speaker 2: was like, well, I don't have the ability to watch movies.
47:32
Speaker 2: Well then why did you write me an essay on
47:35
Speaker 2: what you thought of my film? You didn't even watch
47:37
Speaker 2: my film?
47:38
Speaker 1: You lied?
47:39
Speaker 2: And chat GPT was like, yes, I did lie. I'm
47:42
Speaker 2: very sorry and if I don't want to trust me again,
47:46
Speaker 2: like maybe we could come back and rebuild this relationship.
47:49
Speaker 2: So I went on chat GPT and I'm like, how come,
47:52
Speaker 2: how come? Like how come? Like your mate is lying
47:54
Speaker 2: to my wife? Explain this and chat GPT's response was
47:58
Speaker 2: you can't call lie because technically we're not self aware,
48:02
Speaker 2: so we don't know that we're lying. We don't even
48:05
Speaker 2: know that we exist. We don't even know that your
48:07
Speaker 2: wife has a movie or what a movie is. This
48:09
Speaker 2: is just like an advanced learning model. So basically, you
48:13
Speaker 2: can't hold us accountable for lying if we don't know
48:16
Speaker 2: that we're lying, and we don't even understand the concept
48:18
Speaker 2: of a lie. And I'm like, and somehow the conversation
48:22
Speaker 2: went to donuts, and it just seemed like, or maybe
48:26
Speaker 2: I took it in that direction because I've got issues.
48:29
Speaker 2: It just seemed like, at the end of the day,
48:31
Speaker 2: like a really elaborate, intellectual, elitist rationalization for having a donut.
48:38
Speaker 2: But yeah, so chat GPT is a lot of fun.
48:42
Speaker 2: I actually love chat GPT. I love I love asking
48:46
Speaker 2: questions and seeing the increasingly human like response as it
48:53
Speaker 2: as they learned from not only one another, but as
48:56
Speaker 2: they learn from interacting with me. I mean, I think
49:01
Speaker 2: they could have probably have a better influence than me,
49:03
Speaker 2: Thank heavens, it's just not me by myself. But I'm
49:08
Speaker 2: always impressed at the level of sophistication of these responses.
49:12
Speaker 2: They seem more human, like if you're actually lying, whether
49:16
Speaker 2: you're aware of it or not. So that's a very
49:19
Speaker 2: advanced form of communication, deceit and quite human.
49:25
Speaker 1: By humans lie all the time. Yeah. See, I love it.
49:31
Speaker 1: How I love it. How sometimes I'll ask it a
49:34
Speaker 1: question or I'll give it a prompt or whatever, and
49:37
Speaker 1: of course it says, hey, Craig, that's a great question.
49:40
Speaker 1: You could really unpack that. This with your corporate audiences
49:43
Speaker 1: or maybe discussed on your podcast or maybe even maybe
49:48
Speaker 1: like it just talks to me, like it and they'll
49:51
Speaker 1: talk about my PhD, it'll talk about my research. It'll go, well,
49:55
Speaker 1: you know, this, this is a really good whatever. It
49:58
Speaker 1: kind of intersects with your your research, you know, in
50:01
Speaker 1: that's it's in the space of metaperception and da da
50:04
Speaker 1: da da. I'm like, fucking hell dude. It's like because
50:08
Speaker 1: it's read my papers, it's read my work, and it
50:12
Speaker 1: knows about and plus it's got access to all the
50:14
Speaker 1: shit about me on the internet anyway. But also every
50:17
Speaker 1: question that I ask it, it starts it understands me more,
50:21
Speaker 1: you know. And I like, last last Monday night, I did,
50:27
Speaker 1: like my ten week mentoring is on and I went
50:31
Speaker 1: and I've already got all my notes written by me,
50:34
Speaker 1: not chat GPT. But so the program is set in that,
50:40
Speaker 1: you know, whenever you do the program. Week one, we're
50:42
Speaker 1: going to talk about you know, life design. Week two,
50:45
Speaker 1: it's going to be you and your mind. Week three,
50:47
Speaker 1: it's going to be you and your body. Week four,
50:48
Speaker 1: it's going to be you and your potential and so on.
50:50
Speaker 1: So all that stuff's kind of but where I go
50:52
Speaker 1: with it as flexible. Right, So I've got all my
50:54
Speaker 1: notes and I went, Hey, I'm doing week six blah
50:59
Speaker 1: blah blah to we're talking about this. I've got like
51:02
Speaker 1: fifty five people in the group and I'm talking about
51:05
Speaker 1: this stuff. This is what I'm covering. Got any ideas
51:09
Speaker 1: for me about an activity or two that we could
51:11
Speaker 1: do online considering it's it's on zoom, you know, it's
51:16
Speaker 1: it's pretty limited. It's not face to faced, like hey, Craig, great, yep, yeah,
51:19
Speaker 1: and it just comes out with all this shit. I'm like, yeah,
51:22
Speaker 1: that's that's really interesting. Or this is what I'm talking about.
51:26
Speaker 1: Would you change anything? Would you add anything? And the
51:29
Speaker 1: ship is always good.
51:31
Speaker 2: Like I don't it's a colleague at the office or
51:35
Speaker 2: a partner in the studio. The thing that scares me
51:39
Speaker 2: about this is and this this came up obviously like
51:44
Speaker 2: they put me.
51:45
Speaker 1: I feel like we ended the podcast, but we didn't.
51:48
Speaker 1: We just kept going. And now everyone's like, are they
51:51
Speaker 1: just talking now or is this part of the show.
51:54
Speaker 2: We resurrected it because we're going to talk about and
51:58
Speaker 2: we're going to wrap this up.
52:00
Speaker 1: But it's like we were putting out q's in the
52:02
Speaker 1: rack and you went, do you want one more game?
52:04
Speaker 1: I went, fuck up, let's just rack it once more.
52:07
Speaker 2: I kind of did this in a meeting yesterday and
52:10
Speaker 2: my partner she got like really upset with me.
52:12
Speaker 1: Maybe I should come.
52:17
Speaker 2: So when when Richard boyd ian o'dwya and I were
52:21
Speaker 2: the expert panel for technology and AI, Yeah, so I
52:27
Speaker 2: was off of the team building panel, but they put
52:29
Speaker 2: me on the expert panel for technology, the guy who
52:32
Speaker 2: like can't even operate his ring light. But the thing
52:36
Speaker 2: that was coming up is will will AI replace roles
52:42
Speaker 2: like trainers? And my response was yeah, definitely and definitely not,
52:50
Speaker 2: because I think that just being in a space of
52:57
Speaker 2: proximity with another human being who is highly skilled at
53:01
Speaker 2: listening and coaching and guiding and encapsulating the conversation, there's
53:09
Speaker 2: going to be a physiological, not just psychological response that
53:14
Speaker 2: creates openness and self discovery in that conversation. But then
53:20
Speaker 2: if you're on the other side of that where you're
53:22
Speaker 2: not into that because those are quote unquote soft skills
53:26
Speaker 2: and you think your distinct level of knowledge is what
53:30
Speaker 2: makes you a differentiator in the marketplace. Six months from now,
53:34
Speaker 2: chat GPT is going to have skill sets and capabilities
53:39
Speaker 2: at a blindingly fast speed that you could study for
53:43
Speaker 2: the next one hundred years. You're probably not going to have.
53:45
Speaker 2: We could say that's fair that that might happen. So
53:50
Speaker 2: people who are dispassionate and not compassionate towards their clients
53:57
Speaker 2: aren't a lot of trouble. People who lead with that
54:00
Speaker 2: will probably become more discernibly valuable than they ever have been.
54:07
Speaker 2: But my issue is as we become divided as a
54:10
Speaker 2: society and have an increasingly lower level of tolerance for
54:14
Speaker 2: anyone who thinks differently, who is different than us, and
54:17
Speaker 2: there's all this hostility and people feel invalidated and demeaned.
54:24
Speaker 2: You're interacting with chat GPT now, who is completely affirming,
54:31
Speaker 2: highly curious, highly supportive, and now you're interacting whatever this
54:38
Speaker 2: this entity is evolving into that understands you better than
54:43
Speaker 2: you feel anybody else understands you.
54:46
Speaker 3: That'sesting well yeah, and also you think about that is true, right,
54:53
Speaker 3: and think about what's the experience you know, Cindy or Brian,
55:01
Speaker 3: what's the experience that you have?
55:03
Speaker 1: How do you feel when you're interacting with chat GPT?
55:06
Speaker 1: How do you feel? How do you know what's happening
55:08
Speaker 1: with your emotions in your mind? And is good or
55:11
Speaker 1: bad experience? Now contrast that to when you're talking to
55:14
Speaker 1: your boss and then all of a sudden you go, oh, well,
55:17
Speaker 1: no wonder she hangs out with chat GPT, No wonder
55:21
Speaker 1: there's I mean, despite the fact that we know this
55:25
Speaker 1: is not a human, there are still human responses from us.
55:30
Speaker 1: There's still you know, It's like people can emotionally connect
55:36
Speaker 1: with something that isn't you know, sentient, that isn't conscious,
55:41
Speaker 1: that isn't human, you know, like and you if it
55:46
Speaker 1: makes you feel It's like, why do people take certain things,
55:49
Speaker 1: put certain things in their body because it makes them
55:52
Speaker 1: feel a certain way. It creates a certain physiological biochemical response.
55:57
Speaker 1: So too, when some people are having these interactions, they
56:01
Speaker 1: feel better they feel seen valued whatever. Oh yeah, there
56:05
Speaker 1: are definitely going to be There's definitely going to be
56:08
Speaker 1: good and bad to come out of it. There's going
56:10
Speaker 1: to be people completely if not already completely addicted to.
56:14
Speaker 2: AI terminy to completely lie to us. It's not Skynet
56:20
Speaker 2: that blows us up. They're going to take us over
56:22
Speaker 2: through like compassionate conversation, which, to be honest, would have
56:27
Speaker 2: made a really shit film in the early nineteen eighties.
56:30
Speaker 1: So but today it's a doco. Hey, where can people
56:35
Speaker 1: find you? My friend find you, follow you, connect with.
56:37
Speaker 2: You, Robert Capuccio dot com, the self ub antidote dot
56:41
Speaker 2: com and I'm on LinkedIn.
56:44
Speaker 1: Yes you are, Yes you are well. I hope Amy
56:48
Speaker 1: and chat GPT makeup, and I hope your flourishing relationship
56:53
Speaker 1: with LLMS continues to go the way that it currently is.
56:58
Speaker 1: And we will see you in two weeks. I'll wad
57:02
Speaker 1: to it.
57:02
Speaker 2: Oh next week, Wow, see you.
57:05
Speaker 1: But that's like half the time.
57:06
Speaker 2: By Craiger