Latest / 100 Stories: The Narrative Intelligence Project / Casey Erin Clark: Finding the Voice Beyond the Good Girl — Identity, Storytelling & Power
Transcript
- Casey Erin Clark: Mm-hmm. Paige Williams: Is it mostly singing? Casey Erin Clark: Yes, it is it it is it's it's a cabaret solo show ⁓ sung through dissertation personal storytelling it's a it's a Frankenstein and I'm loving putting it together. Paige Williams: Ha ha ⁓ my god, I can't wait. Are you Like one outfit, never leave the stage. Casey Erin Clark: Yes, one outfit. logistically this is you know, it's a small cabaret stage. I'm actually I've I've got my dress at my sewing machine right over there right now that I'm working on making. So yeah. Paige Williams: Excited for you. Okay. Casey Erin Clark: Yeah. Paige Williams: Today wait, let me start with. Today I am speaking with Casey Aaron Clark, who is the co-founder of Vital Voice Training, performer of mediums, singer, author, podcast host, all the things. And invited Casey to 100 Stories because she is a multimedia artist. And at the core of all of her work, it is about storytelling and storytelling in many different ways. And using our voice be able to tell stories. And so for me it was like so important to this conversation with Casey and to ask about narrative intelligence. Casey, welcome to the show. Casey Erin Clark: Thanks for having me, I'm so excited. Paige Williams: I wanna just dig right in and ask for you to tell me the work that has most shaped how you see yourself and the world. Casey Erin Clark: I am a voice user. and a helper of other voice users. And when I say voice, I mean both the the physical instrument we put out into the world where we say our thoughts out loud, but the way that the voice ties into our emotions and our thoughts and our feelings and our body and our our social world. And I've using my voice since I was a little girl. I sang my first solo in church when I was four. I was the daughter of a music minister and I then moved into musical theater. So my training, my degree, my BFA is in musical theater, which is its own interesting art form of storytelling. And I hope we will have time to get into that today. But stories so to both my work, but just how I see the world. I was thinking about this question before we spoke today and remembering like a few defining about when it comes to storytelling. read as a child, like ⁓ fiction the time. If I was in the car with my parents, I was probably reading. that's why my husband makes fun of me because I don't know how to get in my hometown. And it's because I never paid attention until I was 16 years old and driving myself. Like I was reading if I was in the car. ⁓ I was reading the playground. I was reading in my home. I was reading outdoors. I I ⁓ loved I books. I loved characters like Anne of Green Gables and you know, the these were the the mediums through which I think I understood the world. I gr I ⁓ set I I grew up singing in church Singing in church is an interesting way to enter the art form of singing because some other kinds of singing where the vocal pyrotechnics, like the f the fancy riffs or how high or how loud you can sing is the point of the singing. In ⁓ the is the ⁓ is important thing, the lyrics, the story that you're telling. And and is actually perfect training for musical theater because it's the same way in musical theater, you're telling a story. It's not just what your voice can do. You physically and and ⁓ auditorially to your audience. so yeah, reading ⁓ being crazy bookworm as a kid, growing up in church, moving into musical theater, and then taking all of experiences into the business world, which was ⁓ not something that think twenty years ago I have pictured for where my life was gonna go. But it Paige Williams: Go ahead. I was gonna sneeze, but it Casey Erin Clark: is very important. ⁓ it is ⁓ it been revelatory to to find this new whole arena of that I love so much. That the skills that built in one area can help people in another area, and that the the weird world view that I've cobbled together as an artist becomes ⁓ somewhat revolutionary in business and that's really exciting. Paige Williams: We're gonna get into theater because same. But I do have a question before we jump in. What's a transformational story that you tell about yourself and how has it changed over time? Casey Erin Clark: Yeah. Mm-hmm. I think one of the things that I always loved about stories about in musicals playing a character, Like that's like characters the center of the story and who they were and what they and what their journey was. And I think that ⁓ my my story transformation. happened over a long period of time in my life, but it really was my transition from small town girl who moved to New York to make it on Broadway and that being the singular focus of my dreams and my life to You listed off a bunch of things that I told you in the beginning when you were like, so how do I introduce you? Well, I do this, I do this, I do this, I do this, I do this. This ambersand life, this this multifaceted focus. ⁓ took It took a a little bit of a, don't know, mid ⁓ midlife crisis or whatever of making that identity transition to ⁓ I given up on my dreams or I just widening the aperture? And and that that definition of self was redefinition self really messy for a while. But it felt good too, even as it was ⁓ scary. Paige Williams: Small town girl from Casey Erin Clark: From Bothalto, Illinois, which is across from St. Louis, Missouri, of about ten thousand people. my high school had about seven hundred and fifty. I mean, I was a I was a a sort of big fish in the small pond. My parents were like fairly well known in the community and, you know, volunteered and did all kinds of things and so I was Don and Kathy Clark's daughter and then I was the girl who sang and that was my identity. Like from the time I was little bitty, was the girl with the voice. And and so i if we have any people pleasing A perfectionist eldest daughter types listening to the show, which I imagine might be part of your audience, they might be familiar with the thing that happens when your talents or your gifts in area of your life are praised externally ⁓ it's a great thing. It feels wonderful, but then it ⁓ it almost its own kind of trap. Like that's what you are, that's what you do and you have to always hit mark every time. ⁓ Paige Williams: What narrative and identity did you grow up with that allowed you to have the courage to be the girl who went to New York to make it on Broadway? I wanted that narrative as well, but I didn't have the courage. My dad said, No daughter of mine's going to New York City, and I listened to him, he said, when did you ever listen to me? So I just used it as an excuse, right? But that was my narrative at the time. ⁓ I can't go. Casey Erin Clark: Hmm. Yw. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I first of all I wanna acknowledge level of privilege that I had, both to be born into the family that I was born into, which was endlessly supportive of my dreams. My parents ⁓ parents brought me to New York. I was eight years old. We went and saw of Opera on Broadway and I was done for. Like I was like, this is it. This is the best thing I've ever seen. and and I never remember ever hearing them Say, I don't know, Casey, I don't know if you can handle it. So so having that level of support, huge, huge, huge, huge, huge. And one of I was reflecting before we s before we started this interview today, ⁓ I was thinking a little bit about the books that I loved the most as a kid, and many of them were about Paige Williams: Yeah. Yeah. Casey Erin Clark: the outsider, the rebel, the the girl who takes the unexpected path. And I think much as I did really live very firmly in that good girl people blazer identity as a ⁓ a kid and a teenager and a young woman and occasionally ⁓ now as a not young woman, I did want to be that that trailblazer. Like that felt that that like part of my story too. Paige Williams: It is. Casey Erin Clark: I like to think so. Paige Williams: Yeah, multi hyphenated. Okay, you mentioned a midlife transition. Can you tell me more about that? Casey Erin Clark: Yeah. Yeah, so around the time that we started vital voice training, happened, okay, all right, rewind. I got off the national tour of Le Miz, ⁓ I had been on for 18 months. ⁓ was the factory girl who beat up Fonteen, and then occasionally I was Fonteen. I was understudying for Fonteen. ⁓ and Paige Williams: Who did you play? ⁓ I love your voice already. Anyone who can sing Fonteen, like that to me is the voice. Go ahead. Casey Erin Clark: ⁓ it's yeah, I don't know that I will ever do another show that is as beloved as Le Miz was. It was incredible see how that show was received all over the country. So I I got off the National Tour of Le Miz and I was like, huh, making money's great, ⁓ turns but you know, I was it back in a very familiar position that all actors understand, which is unemployment and like being back on the audition trail and figuring out what my side gig jobs gonna be. And went an for what I thought a singing coach position. And I had taught singing before. I was like, yeah, I could do more of this. And it turned out that needed a speech coach. ⁓ They were looking for someone work with people on public speaking. And ⁓ with all of the in heart, I was like, I'm pretty sure I could figure out to do that. And absolutely in love with the art teaching ⁓ public speaking. While simultaneously be being deeply frustrated by this company that had hired me to work for them. like how they did it, ⁓ like how they were treating their ⁓ had enough Hutzba at that point in my life, I'm like, I'm not in my mid-20s anymore. Like I know ⁓ I know more than than somebody will accept this kind of treatment in a workplace. And then I Julie Fogg. And Julie Fogg and clocked each other literally across a crowded workout class ended up talking and finding that we had ⁓ views and similar frustrations and a together, knowing absolutely nothing about starting a business. And we hit interesting I think. 2014's what we call great moral panic over vocal fry, where was talking about how annoying and unserious women's voices were and giving them all like these solutions for how to fix their broken voices. And we were like, this is Like ⁓ this advice so bad. It's it's not actually ⁓ it doesn't understand the the actual function of the voice, and it doesn't ⁓ how we develop habits over time and why those vocal habits serve us in some environments. Not in others. it it is completely in denial about the sexism of that kind of claim and those kind of messages that we're giving women. So I Julie and I hit this zeitgeist where people were hearing that their voices were broken, instinctively knowing that advice was maybe not great. And then we were offering something different. So that was awesome. So all of that backstory to say, around the same time as we were starting to really ramp up with Vital Voice Training, there was a the an Broadway transfer of my tour was announced. And at that point I had just with the Le Miz cast at the Oscars. I was chosen from all of these thousands people who've done this show over time to come and sing with Jackman and the movie cast in the Oscars, which was absolutely insane. So was like, maybe they really like me. And then I was going for this Broadway transfer and I was all the way up to the end with auditions and on my last call back. And then I was put on and then I didn't book it. And I I I had really of thought, like, maybe this is it. This is the Broadway debut that I've been waiting my whole life for. And didn't happen. ⁓ And moment of like, okay, this is happening. But this business that built is happening. And it turns I kind love it. And it turns out that the frustrations that have been building over time with the limitations of the theater business and the limitations of pursuit of an acting career, those growing, not booking Leh Miz, and then this business taking off, I was like. Maybe I'm a person now. Like it's it ⁓ but really was the catalyst of not booking the Broadway show I thought was gonna be my moment that ⁓ I I needed that break to go actually think I'm really go full out into this business thing that turns out is so satisfying and interesting to Yeah. Paige Williams: I love it. Finding do I say that? We have this one narrative, right? Like I'm Caseier in Clark. The voice. I'm going to New York. I was raised by parents who taught me yes. I can do anything. And then you're there oop. Casey Erin Clark: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Mm. Yeah. Paige Williams: That moment when the story is rewritten for us almost. Casey Erin Clark: Mm-hmm. Yep. Paige Williams: Then allows, in my experience, the real creative project that is for me, the real business that is for me, that is maybe the blueprint of my soul to come forward. And that's where the new story is rewritten. But what I'm curious about with you is what happened to your narrative? Because you were carrying this narrative and then and then the new narrative. And then you just said, I mean, I I'm Casey Erin Clark: Yeah. Yeah. Paige Williams: Paraphrasing what you just said, but what I heard you say was, and now I'm experiencing more joy and fulfillment than I ever knew was possible by the new story. Casey Erin Clark: Hm. Yeah, I I think that S so one of the things that I say fairly often when I talk about my acting is that of the best acting classes I ever took in college was my directing class. And part of was because ⁓ really for the time I was able to out from the way my track fits into this story and my moments and my character and like, yes, of course there's other people on stage, but to but to get that, you know, let's use a d business term, 50,000 foot view or whatever, of what's happening and see ⁓ all these elements come together to create a whole gave me a totally new way to to and then dive back into the moment and create again. And I think I'm putting this together as I'm saying this. ⁓ Paige Williams: Yes. It's beautiful. Casey Erin Clark: The singular focus of my life being this of Broadway, ⁓ of of a kind of musical theater career, then expanding ⁓ new directions, connections, new communities to be a of, which was so huge. It it did it it it's kind of what that director's class did for my acting. It's like that moment did for my life. It made it bigger, made it more full, it made it more varied and interesting. And one of things that is true about how I think, and I think this is one of the reasons why Julie and I make such great partners and and partners in particular. Both of us like to look at giant piles of information and then process them in slightly different ways. Like Julie is always making, you know, big sort of murderboard style connections and and it's all a swirl and it all gets absorbed and then it kind of comes out. And finding the internal architecture of everything and then I'm like putting it into like frameworks. Like love framework. I'm such a freaking nerd about two axis graphs, right? Like one axis this way, one axis this way, and where do we put things? I'm the I I'm the architect. and I think that that the way that my life and my goals and my dreams have expanded feels like just feels the house got bigger. You know what I mean? Paige Williams: Yeah. So I promised you that we would talk about BFAs in musical theater. So here's my elegant segue. have I don't know if we talked about this when we met, but I started my MFA in directing theater. Casey Erin Clark: Yeah. Paige Williams: Yeah, and then a year into it I shifted to digital media, so making movies, and I ended up doing a master's in directing theater, an MA, not an MFA, and did my MFA in filmmaking. And I got to direct a main stage for the MA and then a short little film for my MFA and get my papers and move on. That said, I love theater. ⁓ ⁓ Casey Erin Clark: Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm. Paige Williams: Love theater. I love directing theater. I love seeing all the pieces, like you said, like that zoom out helped you then go back in and be a more embodied actress. but my secret wish always that I had a voice that could sing well. And I could have done musical theater ⁓ I sing that well, and I it. and so I just love a good singer, and so let's talk about. Casey Erin Clark: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Paige Williams: A BFA and musical theater, what it meant to you, what it taught you about the world, and what we need to know about it. Like what is it that you want to say about this, Casey Aaron Clark? Tell me everything. ⁓ and what is your favorite role you've ever played? Casey Erin Clark: Yeah. well the first ⁓ my goodness. ⁓ gosh, okay, so many things to go into here. Alright, so the first thing that I want to say is human ⁓ can And not that, I happen to that every human being should sing. Paige Williams: Yeah, yeah. Casey Erin Clark: Because I think that singing is one of the most things we do with our As primal as ⁓ as primal as as primal as any that. It is it is so deeply profoundly human to sustained sounds with our voice that rhythm pitch to them. We do it together, ⁓ we do it by ourselves. ⁓ It's it is of the most visceral ways to connect with your body, ⁓ vibration, and with the of you, because your voice contains everything that makes you who you are on the planet, whether you're ⁓ singing speaking. So I'll say that first. Everyone should sing. musical theater is such interesting medium of art. is very theatrical. It is inherently larger life. We're not doing kinchin sync drama, even in a serious musical like ⁓ let's like next to normal, which is a a you know a family drama. It's about mental illness, it's about all these things, but we're still singing. We you people don't do that necessarily in real life, right? So musical theater an form, I think, teaches you how to accept Extremity, something is not natural, and the core of humanity that's in that so that you can embody it. That's my job. My job is to make you as an audience member believe that of course character needs to sing right now because what's happening to her is so huge and extreme that that's way that she's processing it in front of us. So I think because of that, I have a very different worldview on the whole idea of authenticity. And that deeply informs Julie and my work, and we can go into that later about what it means to be real, to be authentic. That can contain extremity and and something that's unnatural. musical theater is business is very interesting. And is something that I'm exploring right now in this show that I'm writing. I'm exploring a lot of things around what it means to be a woman. one the things that as I was thinking about the the this show I'm creating that I wanted to explore was ⁓ types, ⁓ the of ⁓ characters we in musical theater. and really what it comes down to is like the leading lady, the ingenue, maybe the quirky friend, and character woman. And so much of that is about. Voice type, yes, really it's about what you look like. And I was a young actress, I used to call it the Sarah Adelaide and that was named the two main female characters of Guys and Dolls. So Sarah Brown is like the prim proper soprano ⁓ who's a little frosty a little bit of an ice queen and needs to get thawed out by the man. The is the brassy, funny, sexy, quirky, belter who's trying to also pursue a They're always pursuing a man. Always. I could sing roles. could play both roles. I act both roles. What a casting director saw me as when I walked in the room very much ⁓ depend entirely on who I was standing next to. Like to some women, I was clearly Sarah Brown. ⁓ Next other women, I was clearly Adelaide. But me, myself, I was to them ⁓ because they easily put me in a box. I wasn't ⁓ an ingenue I wasn't obviously a character woman They're just like, I don't know what to do with her. It's a mystery. Again, until I can be defined in opposition to someone else, basically. that was frustrating in the business. There were there were definitely casting directors who knew what to do with me and therefore I got to play some really great roles and do some very cool work. But was a I I I I seemed to be a bit of a mystery to the business because they just didn't know how to me and ⁓ and therefore ⁓ sort of to like Put myself in a box for them so that they could understand me, just decide that I was gonna walk in the room and I was gonna do my thing and I was gonna let them take and run with it and hope maybe that would get who I was what I could do. it's a weird business, it's especially as a woman, there is a rampant mismatch between this vast oversupply of talent this teeny tiny demand for jobs. So it's a mindset, it's a scarcity reality, when it comes to just there's a lot of people that want to do this and there's not a lot of opportunity for them to do it. So I was always grateful for any opportunity that I got to do what I loved. But the business itself is enormously frustrating in a lot of ways. so you asked me about my favorite roles. obviously playing Fontienne and Lame's was really fun. but I think my all-time favorite role was Joe March Little Women. It was a joyous experience. women who played my sisters really became my sisters in real life ⁓ and and good friends. and it happened to be at a regional theater in St. Louis, which is near my hometown. So like my softball coach from school came and saw me. Like my piano teacher, like p people people who had grown up got to come and see me do this incredible role in this beautiful jewel of a musical. And Joe March was so, much the the the bold, funny, silly, leading type role that I always wanted to do. ⁓ Paige Williams: Mm, that's so fun. This is for the record, but did you ever play Patsy and Always Patsy Glone? Casey Erin Clark: No, and you know what I I went in for it once. sh like her vocal range ⁓ ⁓ slightly lower than is like super comfortable for me. One of my best friends played her several times though and she's phenomenal at it. ⁓ it's a beautiful show. Yeah. Paige Williams: To left. Yeah, I love that show. It's so fun. Yeah. ⁓ okay, that was sidebar. me get ⁓ Casey Erin Clark: Well, gave you a lot about musical theater, so Paige Williams: What did okay. This mismatch of a casting director not knowing how to cast you? What narrative is Casey Erin Clark: Mm. Paige Williams: Did that tell you about yourself as Casey Aaron Clark? Casey Erin Clark: man. I mean so have a lot about the advantages that being artist, being a an aspiring musical theater actor gave me as an entrepreneur. ⁓ And mainly that's just continually putting yourself out there, ⁓ hearing no, and keeping right? And and the ability to Refine the messaging to make it clearer what it is that you have to offer so that people can get it because like how we tell the story of who we are and what we do very important to being able to make the impact that we want to make in the world. So so, know, I ⁓ it easy to ⁓ blame casting directors for not having enough imagination. And I don't think that that is strictly true. I think that they're also in world where they see a bajillion people, you've got to out how to stand out. You've got to figure out how to how to make their job easy for them. And so that is something that has been helpful to as a business person. an emotional standpoint, from a self-esteem standpoint, ⁓ hard. And particularly the stuff is a mind fuck ⁓ for most the women in the musical theater industry. And, you know, ⁓ one of oldest jokes in the book is like, what's the difference a leading lady and a best friend character? ⁓ about 15 pounds, you know. It's there is a is unfortunate narrowness how we see characters are capable of in love, characters that ought to be standing in the front, characters that the is centered around. And and it so much of it has to do with sort of really just narrow, rigid beauty standards and beauty ideals and Western beauty ideals and American beauty ideals and and that's boring. Like it's really boring. Why leading ladies to be shorter than their leading men? Why do ingenus need to be skinny? Why do ⁓ l you know why do leading men have to hair? I don't know, like because in the real world, people, fat people, short people, people in love and experience being the leading role in their own lives. So I always ⁓ very when I see productions, musicals, movies, shows take a risk on people who look like people opposed to people who look archetypes or ideals. Paige Williams: Mm. Is d there a show that you're into recently that's doing that well? Casey Erin Clark: not terribly recent. It was a couple it was a few years ago, but it's one that I just still back on and think, ⁓ man, really nailed creating real Groundhog Day the musical. you ever see that one in New York? So Tim mention Wrote Groundhog Day. He also wrote Matilda. He's an Australian musical theater writer. guy. ⁓ dumbs it down. Like, really expects a lot out of the audience, but but deeply and also very wonderfully in his writing. But they managed put this incredible ensemble of character actors who. were funny and and quirky and delightful and also deeply romantic and deeply attractive and and it it was it was really ⁓ quite I the of a character actor, I think, is it can be frightening it can be It can be a little demoralizing to hear as a as a young actor, no matter who you are, and I'm I'm speaking beyond of my own experience, but also beyond my own experience from lot of conversations that I've had with fellow actors, when a casting director or a director says, ⁓ you're a character actor, ⁓ I what a lot of us hear is you're or not attractive enough. You're you're you're too weird, you're out of the box. And Paige Williams: Mm. Casey Erin Clark: What is really true is that roles are all ⁓ are the most interesting, delicious roles there. They're they're the ones that are allowed to have edges. They're the ones that are allowed to have extremity. They're the ones that are allowed to do things are out of those ⁓ narrow archetypal that we have for ⁓ a romantic or an ingenue or whatever. Paige Williams: Why do you think? Archetypes attached to a standard of appearance. Casey Erin Clark: Mm. I think some of it is that we plain don't trust the audience to get it otherwise. I think that and I think that that is only getting worse, in movie and TV now like don't if you've heard anything about Netflix executives being like, You gotta really nail this exposition on the head because people are are scrolling and and and on their phones while they're watching a movie. So we gotta make it real easy for the audience. think some of that comes down to not trusting the audience. Whether not we ought to trust our audience maybe is a different conversation. I think I think that I think the stories that we tell about are that really deeply fascinates me and how that is to what it means be a good woman or bad woman or virtuous woman or an unvirtuous woman. I've always been fascinated by fairy tales. love I love a twisted fairy tale. It's one of my favorite genres to read in addition to romance novels, which I love romance novel. And the way that we define morality by whether someone's beautiful or not. I mean, think about the way that we like most witches are ugly and most, you know, ingenues, most of our our fairy tale heroines are beautiful. also very passive typically in classic fairy tales, whereas like the witch is doing shit, like she's getting shit done. ⁓ Paige Williams: She's really smart too. She's always smart. Casey Erin Clark: Yes. ⁓ yes. Absolutely. ⁓ my god. So so those archetypes go far the way we understand culture and the way we understand the world from the time we're like children first knowing like does mean to say once upon a time and happily ever after. ⁓ Paige Williams: Mm. Off the record, when there was Chris was at my reading that you came to and I don't know if you guys met. Did you get to meet? Because she's a musical theater girl. She has ⁓ Casey Erin Clark: Mm-hmm. I think we did, and I'm trying to picture her. Yes! she was she the chef? Or did food stuff? ⁓ Okay. Paige Williams: No, that was she's musical theater too. And she played Patsy. She played Patsy. She was great. I saw her outside of Chicago. Anyway, Chrissanne and I went to school together. She was doing her MFA and acting when I was doing mine and directing. And I remember Cryley, who was my mentor, being like she got in trouble because she was hired, I mean, for MFA, to be the ingenue and she gained 20 pounds. Casey Erin Clark: That I can totally see that. I can totally see that. Yep. Paige Williams: And they were up in arms about it. Like devastating. And she's a trained opera singer. But you know her f one of the best roles I saw her in was she was the mom and bat boy. Have you seen Bat Boy? ⁓ my God. Casey Erin Clark: Yeah, because Yeah. ⁓ my god, that's fantastic. That is delightful. ⁓ Paige Williams: Okay. Okay, we gotta Okay. I just wanted to tell you that 'cause you were all there. Like there were all these musical theater people there. I didn't even that's so awesome. Casey Erin Clark: Yes. Paige Williams: What I love about your story that you ⁓ now doing a one woman show. ⁓ so I'd love to hear how you came to it, the decision, how you had the courage to say, Yes, I'm gonna do this, and then to write it and to decide what goes in it and it is transforming you by telling your own story. Casey Erin Clark: Hehehe Ugh I have as long as I could remember wanted do something like this, w when I was college. I did a freshman recital, which is not something that freshmen are supposed to do. But I was like, I have a bunch of songs I wanna sing and I have a venue this beautiful chapel in Illinois Wesleyan that like and have a pianist who I can like, Hey, can you play for me? And I can invite people and do a recital. ⁓ So that like not having to ask permission to do a thing. that that's been part of the deconstructed Southern Baptist girl. as adult, as a New Yorker, as a as a woman in her forties, I always had really high standards of what I wanted this to be and I never could figure out exactly what I wanted it to be about. Like I just it was about having ten songs memorized, I could do one next week. But like that wasn't good enough for me. I needed a theme and literally last fall I was taking a nap on the couch in my studio, curled up in my little shrimp ball, and suddenly like blinked open my and I was like, difficult women. Difficult women. Difficult women. That's my theme. that it just it was like a gong inside chest. It was like that's the thing I have to talk about. I have to talk and and ⁓ in many different iterations of what that phrase could mean. Being a woman, having a b being difficult to cast or difficult to understand or outside of the societal boxes that people expect you to be in as a woman. tropes musical theater, tropes in literature, tropes in fairy tales. Like I I suddenly was like galaxy brained ideas of all the things that I could talk about. What has been and what continues to evolve. Is how much this is about and much this is about my journey a woman. Because what I I didn't wanna do with a cabaret ⁓ is just tell like talk about Like I didn't wanna do a cabaret about me. I was joking with a friend of mine who As a videographer for New York theater and has filmed a lot of cabarets, and I was like, Yeah, I just that's not what I'm into. And he's like, ⁓ you want you don't want to do living and lovin' in New York City? I'm like, no, I do not want to do that. I want it to be about something bigger than that. And I have come to understand through conversations with people who have this art form, and s a director friend who's helping me out with this that while it is not just about me, it is about me because I'm the one on stage. And and I the medium through which this story is being told. And and so what how am I weaving in my deep feelings and thoughts and opinions and and all of all of that this meta ⁓ that hope is pointing things that every ⁓ woman every non-woman, every human who comes to see this show will go, like, ⁓ yeah, I get that, or I see that, or I've been there, I've had those thoughts, or somebody that to me once and it ⁓ never right. And thank you for validating that feeling. Like I by being enough to go, yeah, I ⁓ am part of this story and that's okay, it's not that it's not enough or that it's boring too self indulgent or any of those things. Like that's the people are gonna be able to to come into it. Paige Williams: Yeah, the identification of the audience is so important in the work, right? Casey Erin Clark: Yeah. Paige Williams: Why do you think that is? Casey Erin Clark: The identification like how the I the how the audience is able to come to it, you mean? Paige Williams: Yeah, like you just said basically, I want to tell a story where a woman says, Yeah, that's me, thank you for validating me. Casey Erin Clark: Yeah. think that that that's woven through a of the work that we do as vital voice training. I think Julie and I both come to the work with our own stories that are so deeply embedded in how we see the world. and we also attract clients that very share of our stories and and that that ability to to tell our story and to draw out their story so that we can connect with those points of commonality that we can see our stories as part of a larger story of how are treated in the workplace ⁓ or women's or have been defined as or what leadership is supposed to sound like all of those big things. We our story fits that much larger narrative and the more commonality we can find, I think ⁓ the more interesting conversation gets. Paige Williams: I believe that we do creative work to be of love and service, and by doing that, we awaken. And I know that you're just in the middle of the show, you're writing it, it's in October, and I can't wait to come back and say, How did it change you by actually getting on stage and doing it in front of an audience? It's really exciting, and I'm just so proud of you for doing it. It takes such courage it's gonna be so meaningful, it's gonna have a lot of impact. Casey Erin Clark: Yes. Yes. Yeah. I am really excited about it. It's it's having the date ⁓ a real date, having actually been purchased is is one those things that it's like, okay, yeah, this is actually happening, this thing that I've dreamed of for a long time. ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ Yes, I absolutely believe that I am to do this. ⁓ Yeah. Paige Williams: Yeah. Yeah. And you were made for it. Yeah. And if you had gotten that the other thing I was thinking about, if you had gotten that one thing you wanted so badly, you might not be doing this. Casey Erin Clark: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it those those sliding doors moments in life are so interesting and I i I I don't know I don't know how you feel about the concept the multiverse. but I the the shadow of unlived life Paige Williams: Yeah. Yeah. Casey Erin Clark: Is is something that is so interesting, right? Like like if I'd made this other choice or if this other thing had happened to me and I life had split off in in that moment, where would I be? I think it's I think easy to depending on what's on in your world around you, start to be wistful for that unlived life, but but then you miss maybe the richness of around you at the moment. And I I d I do feel I do feel like booking that particular production of Leiz may have been the best thing that ever happened to me. ⁓ Paige Williams: Mm. Even that is sense making real time to tell that story. And we do it over and over and over, which me into let's talk about narrative intelligence and voice. When I say the words, what is narrative intelligence? What does that mean to you and how is it connected to voice in your mind? Casey Erin Clark: Yes very much so very much so Yeah Ya Mm. There are so many things that I feel like into my understanding of narrative intelligence. I think that eye, that ability to zoom out and make the connections across time space and experiences and other people is part of it. I think that to the the girl who was a good little girl loved the stories of rebels, ⁓ I think The way that was trained from a young age to understand a of institutional level storytelling, a larger level of storytelling, like the the the story of the church, the story of what it means to be a Christian, the story what it means to be a real artist in the theater industry. and that these either examined or of much more often very unexamined, but incredibly powerful, narratives, institutional level narratives have much power over our lives, ⁓ whether understand that or not. And then like, what is story within that institutional or outside? Do I need to take my story outside of that institutional narrative? Do I need to reject that institutional narrative in favor of different kind of storytelling, something that's ⁓ linear or less clean or more messy or more vibrant or more unexpected. that has been important, I think, my understanding of narrative intelligence in my own life, but also what we teach. Paige Williams: So You and I have a similar upbringing. I was raised Southern Baptist. Casey Erin Clark: Hm, yes. I remember this. I remember this from our first conversation. Yep. Paige Williams: And your dad was the minister of music. Casey Erin Clark: He was for a long time, when I was a kid, yeah. Paige Williams: And you brought this up just now, like well, y it played around it. know, the biblical stories that we learned growing up, Jonah and the well, Garden of Eden, David and his brothers. Casey Erin Clark: Mm-hmm. Yep. Paige Williams: Jesus in the Temple. And on and on and on. Mary and Martha. And the the lessons that we learned. in our Sunday school and in our homes. How did that narrative Casey Erin Clark: Hmm. Paige Williams: Shape your childhood, your adolescence, and your adulthood today. Casey Erin Clark: Oof. Paige Williams: I know, it's loaded. Casey Erin Clark: It's it's a big question and but it's I was thinking about this today a in in two specific ways. ⁓ So specific number one, I think the the largest meta narrative is threaded most of evangelicalism is you, human being, are You dirty, ⁓ are broken, are ⁓ worthless. In an like you a person, uh-uh, bad. ⁓ thank goodness I not get that from my parents, but I know a lot of evangelical kids did. And it and it's and it's given ⁓ from place of like, you're bad, you can be again, but only because this external deity comes and saves you, etc. etc. etc. So I think that the meta-narrative of ⁓ human are bad is toxic. And I will, you know, ⁓ not all Christians, hashtag not all religion. But that ⁓ a child that, having be the central way that a human understands themselves, is that everything me that makes me human also makes me terrible. Not a recipe good mental health. Not a recipe for relationships. Not a recipe for a healthy functioning society, frankly. So I'm really Glad that I of all had parents who who never that me or taught me ⁓ and said, you they taught me that I was worthy and that I was loved and that Jesus loved me and that all of that stuff. But like, but I heard it at the church that that I I knew it. I understood it. but I had to fully reject that. And now I'm like, burn that narrative to the ground. burnt, burnt Salt the earth behind it, burn it to the ground. other thing that I think is really fascinating about growing up as a Christian is the way that you understand the idea of your testimony. I was thinking about this as like one of the ways that we understand storytelling, right? Is our testimony. ⁓ got a testimony. ⁓ the testimony, ⁓ story, is for a very ⁓ purpose, and that purpose is conversion. Your must be framed around this very specific goal. Of make another Christian. the way that therefore we approach storytelling often this end game mind is kind of I'm just gonna use the word nefarious because it it really does there there is a level manipulation. Paige Williams: hang on just a second. I lost your sound. ⁓ okay, now it's back. Keep going. Sorry. Casey Erin Clark: Some I for some reason my AirPods just decided to play a song for me. I'm gonna start that thought over again. Okay. So so so so your testimony ⁓ is conversion. testimony is a story you tell in order to make another person what you have, to make another person I want to be like them. or or to make them feel bad or make them feel emotional enough to this huge decision about their life. And it's it's inherently a sa you've put yourself inherently in a s position of salesman in every you're ever in. Like I don't know that it is actually possible to create a real I'll just use the word authentic relationship with another human being when The end goal is make them like me. Save them. Paige Williams: So you're reminding me in the 80s your church a part of the SBC, the Southern Baptist Convention? Okay. Do you remember evangelism explosion? Did your church do this? E. So ⁓ Casey Erin Clark: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. I don't think I don't remember that one specifically, but evangelism was something we talked about for sure. Yeah. Paige Williams: I haven't Of course, of course. So E, Evangelism Explosion. They trained you how to tell your story to save lives. As a 10-year-old to a 15-year-old, I was knocking on doors like a Jehovah's Witness saying, there were two questions you would ask. If you were to die tonight, do you know for certain that you would go to heaven? And the second question was. Casey Erin Clark: Uh-huh. Ooh, yeah. ⁓ huh. Paige Williams: You're standing in front of God and He says, Why should I let you into heaven? What would you say? And that's how you opened the conversion experience. Do you remember this? It all just came back like an old Madonna song. I mean, I'm sending, I'm singing like a prayer and saying, Do you know for certain tonight that if you died tonight, you would go to heaven? And then we would go to the malls and do it. And we would go on mission trips and we would do it, and we would just evangelize. Casey Erin Clark: Ooh ⁓ My god. Yep Yep Yep Paige Williams: And you're so right. is where you just connected dots for me. I first learned to tell my story. Then came theater. I mean I was doing theater in the church, but then came outside church theater. Casey Erin Clark: Yes, me too. Yeah. And then came sinful outside church theatre, right? ⁓ Paige Williams: ⁓ yes. We don't talk about that. I was I played Inez in No Exit in my as starts no exit as senior project for college and my mother came and it's about a lesbian in hell. The devastation that I put that woman through because that was her greatest fear back then. Casey Erin Clark: Yeah. Ugh. So one of the f one of the tools that Julie and I talk about with our clients because we we use the tools of theater in order to help people understand to communicate, right? We we we're taking the frameworks, the principles of theater, which basically about recreating human behavior in a of extreme given circumstances, and we're saying, like, hey, you can use this to help understand your own life, ⁓ to help your meetings, ⁓ to help the way that you s speak one on one with people. because again ⁓ all describing human behavior. So things like given circumstances, things like my scene, what you know, who am I talking to. ⁓ the ⁓ the thing that this reminds me of is the idea of objective. What my objective in this scene? What do I want? And the of human communication is that we c we never communicate without that we want. We want ⁓ to be seen a way, we want to be heard, we want to be understood, we want to do Something with, through, or to this audience. There's always an objective. Having an objective is not the problem. And that is actually something that comes up a lot, especially when we talk to women, where they're like, wait, you're saying that like I I'm saying these words because I want something? Isn't that manipulative? I'm like, I mean, maybe. Maybe manipulative, but it's also just a precondition of human communication. Like ⁓ that want something is human. But the objective of conversion, the objective of ⁓ the only reason that I am communicating with this person I'm communicating with is to save their soul is very specific end game that causes a very specific way of interacting with people that is, I think, unique to. to that kind of conversation and and I do think it's inherently often manipulative. Paige Williams: Think it is fascinating that your parents gave you the yes that you have carried through life. Like I want to celebrate them. Like it's so important that you had parents who said yeah, even though there were these constraints of evangelical Southern Baptist ideology. Like that is amazing. Like, how did they almost overcome? Casey Erin Clark: Hm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Paige Williams: this traditional teaching to tell teach their kids that they are worthy and that they can say yes to everything the religion is actually saying, No, you need to get in a smaller box. You need to be saved. Like that's really interesting. I haven't ⁓ haven't heard that story much. Casey Erin Clark: Hm. Yeah, I I do feel incredibly fortunate and I am I close to my parents. I'm very fortunate with that too as an adult to be to have a good relationship with my mom and dad. my mom was a generation student her family and and I've asked her before, I was like How did you know that you wanted to go to school? Like your mom married at seventeen, never went to college, ⁓ know. Your ⁓ went c college for a little while, but really had to work more than anything. And, you know, he he was smart enough, certainly he could have gotten an engineering degree, but he started a construction business and ⁓ so didn't have like a family tradition of college and you were a girl and it was the sixties, like she was I don't know, I just always knew I was gonna go to college. I was like, that's that's cool, mom. Like that's cool that you knew that. It's and that and it's unusual. She didn't major in or nursing. She majored in commercial interior design and space planning. So she was doing a more ⁓ she was not a decorator. She was very careful. that's so fun that your was too. Okay, so yeah, commercial space planning. A little more way into making spaces beautiful. And she was a working mom in the eighties. I mean, you know, she was like, our were a touch more conservative than it was, and I and I do think some of what helped this is while my was Southern Baptist and so we did have some of the typical So Southern Baptist trappings, ⁓ my pastor, who was my godfather, was very much a Jesus' love pastor as opposed to a hellfire and brimstone pastor. He he he I think he just was a like a bit more liberal, I guess some ways than than his Southern Baptist ⁓ brethren. so we got little more of that messaging and a little less of the ⁓ you're going to hell messaging, which is great. Paige Williams: Think the biggest surprise in my family is that turns out we're all just human, having a human experience. And that has changed us. Like understanding that narrative has changed the hearts and minds of my family more than anything. Which is kind of a different narrative than what we I grew up with and was taught. ⁓ Casey Erin Clark: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Paige Williams: hymn or hymns still run through your brain today that you love to sing church. ⁓ Casey Erin Clark: ⁓ huh. ⁓ gosh. I've a really interesting vehicle for church that come up for since joining Broadway Inspirational Voices in eighteen. So Broadway Inspirational Voices is an incredible organization, a nonprofit, that is also a choir. It was in nineteen ninety-four by a black gay man from Ohio who grew up singing gospel music in church with his family and had a music minister mother, actually. And he wanted take music that he had loved as a as a child, a teenager, as a young man, and bring it to Broadway in the h during height of the AIDS crisis and take the hate. out of it and go, this music is about joy and love and and and freedom, liberation, especially from the black church. he started out with twelve singers in nineteen ninety four and I think thinking was gonna do a concert ⁓ and thirty years It's this incredible organization with I think I think we have like eighty more people on the roster singer-wise, we do outreach work the community and we we work with prison system and with seniors and with teenagers and with Covenant House and all of these things, in addition to the that we get to do. And we sing all different kinds of music, but it really comes down to this message of hope and inspiration. we do sing a lot of traditional gospel stuff, a lot of particularly African-American spiritual. tradition, gospel stuff, and back to that music. As part of an organization with people of every gender identity, of every sexual identity, every of creed, every everyone from like pagans and atheists to like hardcore, you know, Jesus believing Christians and ⁓ Jewish people Muslims and y i it's so diverse. the fact that of us can come together in a room ⁓ And sing love about freedom and about joy coming the morning after the sorrow of the night. And and ⁓ these messages, of exclusionary of any and given back to people, been quite healing for me, I think, as I've deconstructed from my own religious beliefs in a pretty profound Like it's nice to come back to the that I grew up singing with my mom and dad and and that I still love to sing with them whenever we get the opportunity to do so. there are some songs are very much imprinted upon my DNA at this point that I will never forget singing them. But but to sing it in that new context is really wonderful. Paige Williams: Totally. A couple of years ago I was back home in Mississippi and it was my parents' 50th wedding anniversary and we sat at my brother's house and sister-in-law has a collection of Baptist hymn hymnals. And so we started like, okay, what song do we want to sing? And then we would sing it. And some of those songs, you know, I haven't sung or heard since many years. And it was just like centering and joyful ⁓ ⁓ meaningful. Casey Erin Clark: Yeah. Yeah. What what's your favorite? Paige Williams: Man, I guess just as I am. Casey Erin Clark: I was just thinking of just as I am. I was that the altar call for your for your church? E every every time. Every time. Paige Williams: ⁓ totally they alter every time. But there's more. I mean, I surrender all. Remember that one? Casey Erin Clark: ⁓ yes, of course, of course, of course. My my grandma loved Ice Arrender All. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Paige Williams: Mine too and my mom and so I can hear their voices when I hear it. ⁓ I I yeah, there's so many, but because he Casey Erin Clark: Because he lives. My dad plays that one on the piano all the time. Yep. Paige Williams: It's so interesting that they're so meaningful to us there's so many narratives we had to strip away. Casey Erin Clark: Yeah. he lives is of those songs that my dad so my father is a mostly self-taught pianist. He had about six months of piano lessons when he was a little boy, and that's all could afford. He had eight brothers and sisters, scrub dirt poor, but plays mostly by even though he he does read music and knows a ton about music. But there are a few songs that he plays and has played for as long as I can remember. sits down at the piano, just you know, all it. And ⁓ and those for me now are about my dad ⁓ more than else. Like yeah. Paige Williams: Let me go back to these questions and we can wrap up. I think we probably covered a lot of it even without asking the questions. Casey Erin Clark: I am open. I don't wanna you you're a busy lady, but I'm having a great time. Paige Williams: Where are we? ⁓ my gosh, we're already in an hour. This has been so fun. Did I ask you when you hear the words narrative intelligence, what it how do you define it? Okay, I thought so. Usually I asked that last, but I I was like, I already did that. Casey Erin Clark: Yes. Yeah. We we ended up making a hard left turn into institutional storytelling in the evangelical church. So yes. ⁓ That's we got into that. Yes. Paige Williams: Yeah, but Is there anything you think I should ask you before I ask this question? Or anything we've left out that you want to say? Casey Erin Clark: Mm. You know, we've ended up talking a lot about and and a about I do for other people with their voices and their But maybe that's embedded in there. You tell me what you think. Paige Williams: Okay, this next question addresses it. Casey Erin Clark: Great, perfect. Paige Williams: Okay. teaching, training people about voice, what you experienced when a pe person is speaking from a story that is no longer ⁓ true them? Casey Erin Clark: One of the things that Julie and I have identified about our favorite clients, our favorite type of clients, that they all have what lovingly refer to as the flaming inner middle finger. Sometimes said inner finger is just Barely flickering. what been shellacked over that for years and years and years ⁓ is Or a good who can keep her head down and eventually people will notice what a good job I do. Or I'm shy and quiet nobody what I think. Or I don't belong in this industry and sooner or later everybody's gonna find out. The stories that I hear and I'm immediately like, are you sure? Are are often in that vein. And we started way back at the beginning of this conversation talking about a little bit about characters and the idea of like how we see ourselves in characters and archetypes and stuff. I think we live in a world that loves to both define us from the outside and then we love to define ourselves from the inside in order to better understand who we are. Like that is such a human instinct. Like I I put myself into a type box, whether it's Briggs, you have a beautiful tool that you've created to help people understand like what their narrative story type. And these are useful tools. But think that we can get very stuck in a This is who I am, this is what I do, this is what I cap what I'm capable of, this is what my voice is. ⁓ is what my story is. And I've learned anything from ⁓ a long career playing ⁓ many different kinds of characters is that you have so much more inside of you than have any clue because most people don't get to go to that extremity. They don't get to explore their inner Lady Macbeth or mother of dragons. They don't get to explore the silliest ⁓ that they possibly imagine. They they're they're living a a a real life in the real world. And and I think via play and imagination, exploration We can break out of those old boxes and old ways of defining ourselves and find something that is bigger and juicier and messier and edgier and so much more interesting those old definitions. But it takes that rebellion back to the inner middle finger. It takes a little bit of inner rebellion to be like, no, I'm not gonna do it that way anymore. I'm gonna do it a new way. I'm gonna try something different. Paige Williams: What do you think it takes for a person to shift to say, No, I'm not gonna do it that way anymore? Casey Erin Clark: Mm, I think sometimes it takes experiencing that you actually do have that other thing in you. that's why I love pulling Shakespeare monologues. That's why I love pulling out. know who you know who writes a great monologue that I wish every woman would get out is Shonda Rhymes. Man, woman can write a mic monologue. And every ⁓ everyone needs have the experience of the mic drop monologue. Because sometimes it takes someone else's text be like, I can say that thing. Yes, I I can I can it because I can ⁓ feel it. my gosh. Sometimes it takes a quiet person making a loud sound. Sometimes it takes, know, a a person with a hyper feminine, you know, like have you ever heard Tia call it the fundy baby voice, where like that that sweet, sort of semi-childlike voice that women in high control religions often to Paige Williams: I identify. Casey Erin Clark: Adopt because it makes us non-threatening. you find the depths of like fuck you voice, and you're who is that? Well, that was in you the whole time, girl. You have to experience it though, and that just takes sometimes somebody just giving you like the gentlest little bit of a like booplick push. Paige Williams: What does it do for a person to find their voice in that way? How does it change them? What have you seen working with women? Casey Erin Clark: The the expression that you're seeing on my face right now is just picturing all of the moments women and men, with young people and older people, with business people and with other artists. The ⁓ that when you're like, I didn't that could come out of me, and the like incandescent light ⁓ sort like shines out through their pores. That moment, like I just gobble up ice cream. Like it's the best thing in the world. It's so delicious to see. ⁓ And it and like yes, it's maybe satisfying to be witness to doing that, but when they have that moment of like, that was me. That my voice that did that. And you don't I don't think you forget a moment like that. I think it gets imprinted. Paige Williams: Love the light coming out of their pores. Casey Erin Clark: it's a drug. Let it shine, bitches! Yes! Paige Williams: This little white of mine. That was beautiful. Thank you. There was something I I thought I should ask you this after that. Let me just check in real quick, hang on. What is becoming all of who you are in your work have to do with voice? Casey Erin Clark: If everything that makes you you makes your voice it is, and that's what we believe, that's what we teach, then every and edge and new gonna mix now, branch on the tree, rivulet down the side the stream. Every everything you discover adds. Texture your instrument. Fullness. the compliment think Julie ever gave me about my voice was that my voice didn't sound a single note, it sounded like a chord happening all at once. And feel like that's that's you when you ask, when you when you are able to consciously Practice accessing all those different parts of yourself and then just enjoy that can flow through you in the moment. Like it's it's there the conscious practice that takes a little time and then there's the getting into that that flow state with it that is it is a feeling of power that I think nobody can take away from you, and that's the kind of power we want people ⁓ to experience their instrument. Power that doesn't anybody else's approval, power that doesn't require permission. power that like is you are your own power source that you then get to share and model other people what taking space, ⁓ saying what you really think, ⁓ changing a culture from the inside or from the outside looks and sounds like. What being a leader What the what the ⁓ the new model that we're creating in real time together in this crazy up time that we're living in, what that looks like when we when we bring that fullness to the table. Paige Williams: Casey Aaron Clark, this has been so fun. I have to tell you, you feel like home to me. And I I identify. Casey Erin Clark: Mm-hmm. ⁓ my gosh, we Paige, we have so much to talk about. gonna get a margarita some night or or a or a ⁓ a big plate of nachos and and some dessert and like really really dig on in here. ⁓ Paige Williams: Well. Girl, we could go for could go down a million rabbit holes. ⁓ you so much for being here. Casey Erin Clark: I bet we could. could probably still recite the entire altar call. Ha Paige Williams: Go ahead, take us out, just as I am. Casey Erin Clark: This was such a pleasure. Paige, thank you for inviting me. Thanks for this juicy, conversation and your wonderful questions. Paige Williams: thank you for being here. ⁓ so appreciate you. Okay, I have a question. ⁓ you ever worked with someone this is off the record and I didn't want to like put you on the spot, but I really am curious. Have you ever worked with someone who's mute or doesn't have a voice? Casey Erin Clark: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah. No, I have not. ⁓ Paige Williams: Because to me what you're saying could still be true for someone who can't speak. Like I was just interviewing this guy about who's a podcast host and he has a podcast on famous dead celebrities. And I was like, What's your favorite one? Maya Angelou. And you remember how she was mute? Casey Erin Clark: I agree. Yeah. Yeah, for years, yeah. Paige Williams: Feel like you could still train voice even in a mute person. Casey Erin Clark: There's a I because the the voice is Paige Williams: Is that true? Casey Erin Clark: The voice is physical. It's also s sort of spiritual. I mean I think a lot of Yeah, it really is. It's it's ⁓ it it is it's it's your aural fingerprint. It's everything ⁓ yeah. I love the work so much. Aurel. ⁓ mm-hmm. Yep. A U R A L Paige Williams: Yeah, it's like the soul. Oral? Like A U R A L. What's an oral fingerprint? Casey Erin Clark: just like like w our heard fingerprint, our felt fingerprint. Like it's yeah. Yeah, I love it. Makes me so happy. Paige Williams: feel like I mean I could just go.