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Eggs 441: The Future of Marketing: AI and Programmatic Advertising · EGGS! The Podcast

0:13
Everybody, welcome back to Eggs. Today's special guest is Chris
0:15
Carr. Chris, how are you?
0:16
Welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, I
0:19
appreciate it. Absolutely.
0:20
Yeah, no problem. Got.
0:21
To have you here. Can you?
0:23
Let's kick things off and just actually get a little quick
0:26
background about you and how you got into what you do.
0:29
Sure. My name is Chris Carr.
0:31
I started a digital marketing agency 22 years ago.
0:35
As of January, it's an agency called Ferritech.
0:38
We're located just outside the city of Philadelphia.
0:41
And essentially what we are is we're a comprehensive digital
0:43
marketing agency. And what we do is we focus on a
0:48
comprehensive approach that basically builds systems for
0:52
clients, that generates, leads, nurtures leads into clients and
0:55
then converts clients into raving fans of of your brand,
0:59
products, mission, values, you know, you name it.
1:02
So that's what I've been doing for the last 22 years.
1:04
In the last two years, I've been a heavy adopter of AI technology
1:08
to try to implement that into a marketing approaches as well.
1:11
And so I'm kind of known for two things, you know.
1:14
Yeah, and the and the and the AI side.
1:18
Yeah, it's really interesting because I mean, you know, we've
1:20
had a number of different marketers and, and stuff like
1:22
that on the podcast over the years.
1:24
And, you know, we've talked inbound, we've talked outbound,
1:27
we've talked, you know, sort of traditional marketing and even
1:30
kind of recently, you know, we've had people on the show and
1:32
we ask, you know, kind of what's next or where are we going or
1:34
what are we doing? And a lot of the advice is still
1:36
pretty traditional. You know, they're not really
1:38
getting into stuff like AI and things like that.
1:40
So yeah, maybe that would be a good area to start our
1:42
conversation. And sure.
1:44
Do you mind talking a little bit about just sort of your approach
1:46
or how you think the future of marketing might sort of shape up
1:49
with AII Think there's a interesting thing going on in
1:52
society where people seem to be kind of afraid of AI, like
1:55
getting out to get us. And so maybe if we could
1:57
dissuade some of those fears, but sort of see how we might
2:00
work with our robot overlords in the future.
2:02
You're not kidding. Well, there's there's two
2:05
different directions that I can go.
2:07
The first one is obviously in in the realm of ChatGPT and content
2:11
writing and the impact on that. And then I also do something
2:15
called programmatic advertising or programmatic advertising.
2:17
I use AI technology to look at all of your ads to put it into a
2:21
system and it basically basically the best ad for the
2:24
best audience and the best price wins.
2:26
Can we start with that? Actually that actually kind of
2:29
just really piqued my interest when you said that.
2:32
So the. Yeah, yeah.
2:34
And so programmatic advertising is, is deals with the the, the
2:40
open Internet as opposed to just when we think of advertising, a
2:43
lot of times we think of the things that are dealing with the
2:46
Google network and Facebook and some of the traditional markets
2:50
that we call walled gardens. And with walled gardens, as much
2:54
as they are such a value to us and they, they, they really
2:57
allow us to get the right message to those clients.
3:00
What you don't understand is, is that so, well, what most clients
3:04
understand is that so much of the intelligence and the reach
3:08
and the targeting is controlled by the overlords that run them.
3:12
And what I mean by that is, is that Google and Facebook and
3:15
these other companies, they want you to get that audience, but
3:18
they also are sort of holding critical information back that's
3:22
not going to let you do some of the things that you would be
3:24
able to do in a programmatic environment.
3:27
And So what you would think is you're like, oh, wow, they own
3:29
the lion's share of the, you know, of the Internet.
3:32
Well, the reality is, is that the, the advertising platforms
3:35
that, you know, only own about 30% of the World Wide Web.
3:40
It's 70% is dealing with the open Internet.
3:42
And that's where programmatic advertising lives, but it
3:45
functions very different. And so a lot of times people
3:47
will say, well, what's better? And I would say, well, what's
3:51
better a saw, a screwdriver or a hammer?
3:54
Because they're, they're different tools for different
3:56
purposes. And you know, what programmatic
4:00
advertising will do is it'll allow you to get very hyper
4:02
personalized on your targeting. And so that's where it's really
4:05
cool because it'll use data assets that aren't even like
4:10
from the traditional sources. So it, it's been scouring done
4:13
in Bradstreet and you know, all of these major big data
4:17
warehouses to understand your targeting.
4:20
And when you, when it knows that targeting, it's able to really,
4:24
really, really dive in and, and get to a spot where it's, it's
4:29
footprint is very different. So let me give you a case that
4:31
you're an example. So I had a client and they did
4:35
two things. One is they had traditional
4:37
billboards and the other things that they did is they put
4:41
billboards in, in football, baseball and soccer stadiums,
4:47
right? And So what they do is they have
4:49
a product that when you grab their product, it scours all of
4:52
your social media and it sends you messages.
4:55
Basically it scours your social media and says these are the
4:57
harmful posts that you've posted over the last 20 years.
5:01
You should clean these up because these harmful posts
5:03
might bite you, bite you or your company in in in oncoming years.
5:08
If someone drives by that billboard, what programmatic
5:11
advertising can do is it can say, hey, anybody who's gone
5:13
past this billboard 2 times should get messaging on their
5:18
phone or their mobile device that's identical to that
5:21
billboard that's going to follow them around with classic
5:24
retargeting. I've actually heard of this
5:26
where say for example, you go into a restaurant and connect to
5:30
their Wi-Fi. Now you're getting served ads
5:32
based off of that I. Don't even need the Wi-Fi
5:35
anymore. The other scenario here is, is
5:38
that the targeting is so good that it uses content AI, which
5:42
basically looks at what is the content you viewed before you
5:46
ever went into a building or something like that.
5:49
And so when you go and you go into a stadium, if I'm in the
5:54
cheap seats or just basically normal seating and I see the
5:57
company is called Life Brand. When I see their ad, I would say
6:00
to myself, hey, you know what, maybe I should get Life Brand
6:02
for me the person. But the executives who are in
6:06
the executive suites, when they leave, they get ads that say
6:10
Life Brand would be great for your business.
6:13
So you can get that niche and actually determine if they're,
6:17
you know, Ballers or if they're just Joe Schmo.
6:22
I know everything about everyone.
6:24
The targeting is, I would say it's about 3:00 to five times
6:26
stronger than the data that I get from social media
6:29
advertising and, and you know, traditional Google advertising.
6:33
It's unbelievable. Is this is this a proprietary
6:37
thing that you built yourself? Or is it something that's
6:40
available? I mean, they're widely known as
6:42
DSPS, OK. Yep.
6:45
But the technology and the approach matters.
6:48
Now, the other thing that you would say in this advertising
6:50
thing is, is that before you used to do cost per click.
6:54
A lot of these, specifically in the native space, will do what's
6:56
called cost per engagement. So when they click on the ad,
6:59
they have to stay on your website for 15 seconds for you
7:03
to have to pay, as opposed to someone who clicks and then
7:06
bounces. I'm assuming that's more of a
7:08
premium fee structure. Based off exactly Yep, the also
7:13
the reach the the reach allows you to.
7:15
I'm sorry if I'm talking too much, I know.
7:17
Oh, you're. Good, you're totally fine.
7:20
I can hit you on, I can hit you on your phone, I can hit you
7:22
interstitially, I can hit you on video, but I can also hit you in
7:26
your podcast. I can hit you on your connected
7:28
T VS I can hit you on radio anywhere that is digitally
7:32
connected. Those ads can follow you
7:34
wherever you go. Yeah, no, it's pretty
7:36
incredible. I remember I went to a
7:37
conference on sort of like when retargeting was the big hot
7:41
thing, right? And I remember them talking
7:43
about, you know, they were, they were able to sort of make
7:46
educated guesses about 10 or 15 steps ahead of you just based on
7:50
your search history and various things that you could sort of
7:53
collect in a pre AI world, right?
7:55
So it was IP addresses and locations and things like this.
7:58
And so it's interesting, I mean, that was maybe 5 years ago, six
8:01
years ago. And it's interesting to see how
8:03
far that has moved. And like even in my own realm,
8:06
like I had gone to a website, I can't remember what it was.
8:11
I'm getting into watches, so it's something watch centric.
8:14
And then I received an e-mail from that company that was like,
8:18
hey, we saw you were on our website and I thought, wow, you
8:22
were really able to put that together.
8:24
And I'm guessing that that is that programmatic where it's
8:27
scoured the Internet sort of AI wise.
8:29
I mean, my information's relatively public, so it's
8:31
probably easy to start cross referencing some things and but
8:35
they were literally able to drill it all the way down to a
8:37
personal e-mail address just from a web visit.
8:39
I didn't click anything, I didn't buy anything, I didn't do
8:41
anything. All I did was go to their
8:43
website, read an article and bounce.
8:45
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's I can, I
8:48
can nerd out it to you and tell you how they got you.
8:51
Actually, could you find other ways they got you?
8:54
Yeah, how how about you go down that rabbit hole because I'm
8:56
interested. Yeah.
8:58
Well, I mean, one of the ways they would do it is that they
8:59
would when you looked at that thing, if you looked at on your
9:02
cell phone, you know, it basically is putting it knows
9:06
your IP address of your cell phone.
9:07
And then when your IP address of your cell phone walks into a
9:09
building, it basically knows to connect the record between the
9:12
web search and The Walking into the building search.
9:14
And now it knows that you went into this premise.
9:17
Now you can even do it so that when you go in the first time,
9:19
you get ads that say, hey, welcome to ABC store, right?
9:23
And then the second time you walk in, it was like, these are
9:25
the five things you missed the first time you walked in.
9:29
You can connect it with purchase history.
9:30
You can connect it with everything this is.
9:31
Well, it's funny, you know, because really since sort of the
9:33
advent of the hey Googles and you know, Hey Siri type stuff,
9:39
sorry, my Siri is going to yell at me here in a second.
9:42
But sort of since that stuff started happening, right,
9:44
there's been these conspiracy theories, you know, oh, my
9:46
phone's listening to me. Oh, my device is listening.
9:48
Maybe it is, but ultimately they deny it.
9:51
But I think the point is that with programmatic or with this
9:54
type of technology, I mean, you could almost fake it.
9:57
Even if you didn't listen in. You could probably put together
10:00
enough of a profile on an individual that you could
10:04
probably make such educated guesses that it actually would
10:07
feel like you were listening in. Plus there's there's what you
10:11
have a segmentation. And So what you're able to do is
10:12
you're able to use 5 or 8 different data metrics that
10:17
would all when you add this data plus this data, it's going to,
10:20
it's going to narrow you down again and again and again.
10:22
You know, certain habits of certain people in certain
10:24
demographics in high income neighborhoods do different
10:28
tactics and different techniques than people that in low income
10:31
neighborhoods, you know, advertising to moms from from
10:35
three to five, you know what they do, they sit in their skids
10:38
school waiting for them to get out of soccer practice.
10:41
If you would hit moms, you Geo target all the schools because
10:44
they're pretty much sitting there in the parking lot on
10:46
their phone scroll. At 3:00 PM and on every Monday
10:50
through Friday. So you can pretty much Geo
10:53
track. Exactly.
10:55
Yeah, that's incredible. I've never actually put that
10:58
together where they can actually target based on a location and
11:01
wow, that's. And then your molder, now you
11:04
have Geo targeting plus whatever it is.
11:05
And then you could also say, Hey, the average net worth of
11:08
the kids that go to the school, not the kids, but the, the, the
11:10
families that go to the school. If I have a luxury product, I'm
11:13
going to identify those schools versus schools that might be
11:16
from a lower income. And it kind of goes on and on
11:18
and on and on. I mean, I think advertisers and
11:21
you know, Ryan, you, you would know, and this is a compliment
11:24
to you. I find that advertisers are
11:25
probably the smartest people in the marketing game because what
11:29
they're doing is, is that they're using rapid information.
11:33
They're quantifying their understanding.
11:35
You know what, what are all of these criterias?
11:37
What are the characteristics and stuff like that?
11:38
And how am I going to get the right message to the right
11:41
client at the right time? Like SEO is like throwing paint
11:45
against the wall, some sticks, some doesn't.
11:47
You write really great content. That's a select skill.
11:51
But advertisers have to dream a little bit and say, hey, where
11:54
are these people going to live? What are they going to say?
11:55
What are they going to respond? What if this data mixed with
11:59
this data equals this result? And you know, some of the the
12:02
people, if I sat in a room, I would go to the advertisers
12:05
first because they always seem to be a step ahead of everyone.
12:11
So let's talk a little bit about let's kind of keep this this
12:14
programmatic train rolling and talk a little bit about sort of
12:16
the, I guess your, your ideal customer, right?
12:19
I mean, like, who is the person that could actually leverage
12:22
this in their, in their business?
12:24
You know, for me, you know, if I, I mean, I may have a little
12:27
bit of insight, but for, you know, for your average person,
12:29
they may go, God, you know, that sounds great.
12:30
But I mean, like, I can barely afford Google Adwords.
12:32
Like, I mean, how can I afford something like programmatic, you
12:35
know, So are there, you know, not necessarily restrictions,
12:38
but I mean, like, is there a size of business that this is
12:40
more tailored for? Is there a a, you know, an entry
12:44
level budget that makes the most sense?
12:46
I would say no. I would say that, you know,
12:48
you're talking about a little bit medium, well, not small like
12:53
I would say really small brands, No, but I think you're probably
12:55
looking at $8000 minimum per month would probably move the
12:58
needle. But you know, what you start to
13:02
do is you start to figure out not only am I going to do
13:05
programmatic advertising, am I going to do native advertising,
13:07
which means I'm going to plant an article on someone's website
13:10
that looks like it was my article.
13:12
So when you go to Forbes, you think you're reading a Forbes
13:14
article, but you're not. You're reading an article I
13:16
wrote and curated to fit in Forbes.
13:18
So that's native advertising that costs a lot.
13:21
Then you want to do display in the same through programmatic
13:24
advertising, then you want to do a missing one.
13:28
But all of a sudden all of these approaches just start adding up
13:32
and adding up and adding up between your startup fees, your,
13:34
your artwork and all that, things like that.
13:37
It's not for the faint of heart. Like, these are for the people
13:40
that are really want to know that they're going to win
13:46
through advertising. Well, I really appreciate you
13:48
kind of calling out a number. You know, a lot of people give
13:50
kind of AI mean and I understand that's a broad number, right?
13:53
I mean, you can basically, yeah, sure, as much as you want.
13:55
But, but I think it's important to point that out because
13:57
there's so many people who get into social media, you know, and
14:01
they have their 14 year old run Twitter for them and they, you
14:04
know, and then they're upset because, man, we've put all this
14:06
time into, into Twitter and, and we don't get anything, you know,
14:09
no ROI on this thing. And you know, that happens a
14:11
lot. People advertise, you know,
14:13
through various channels, whether it's social media, not
14:15
to single them out or, you know, paper click or, you know,
14:18
billboards even for that matter. But I mean, people put money
14:21
into these things all the times. And if they don't see the needle
14:23
move, then they abandoned and just don't do anything right, or
14:27
they don't give it time to start working.
14:29
But it sounds like with programmatic because of sort of,
14:32
I mean if you do a good job, I guess identifying your customers
14:34
and knowing who you're trying to speak to, then you could
14:37
probably start moving that needle relatively quickly.
14:41
Yeah, Yeah, you can. I mean, when I would start, if
14:44
I, if I had to start out with a brand new company, I would
14:46
probably do depending on every client's different, every goals
14:49
are different. But let me just give the Garvin
14:50
variety. I would probably start out with
14:53
traditional Google advertising at first.
14:55
Then once you have some really good assets and you have to
14:58
nurture those leads, that's where I really find it's great
15:01
for brand awareness and it's great for nurturing.
15:03
It's not always great for transactional.
15:07
Hey, they clicked on this ad and they bought.
15:08
Now it's programmatic, kind of helps join the other ads
15:12
together. It's like the connective tissue
15:14
between other advertising approaches.
15:17
Yeah. Well, and I read a thing today,
15:19
you know, that might be a nice little addition to this
15:21
programmatic advertising and maybe correct me if I'm wrong,
15:23
because we actually don't sell programmatic at our place.
15:27
So I don't, I don't know all the insurance and outs, but I read
15:30
today that Amazon is pushing their one click purchase thing
15:34
out for other e-commerce platforms now.
15:36
Yeah, basically even if you don't have an Amazon store or
15:39
your products aren't on Amazon now they can do fulfillment and
15:41
things for you. So you can do the one click.
15:43
So theoretically you could do programmatic and and as simply
15:46
as just clicking the ad. You could have made your
15:48
purchase really. Yeah, yeah.
15:50
I mean, there's, there's some things I just love about Amazon
15:53
that this speed of transaction, the, the part I hate about
15:56
Amazon, this is that they own your audience, that you don't
15:59
get much information about them. And so like one of the things
16:02
that we don't even realize that we did in COVID is that we
16:07
worked super hard to keep our businesses alive.
16:11
And in that process, we made Amazon.
16:14
And I used the joke of the overlords.
16:15
The overlords were the real winner because they have all the
16:19
data and data is more expensive than gold.
16:22
Right. And of course, now they're
16:23
selling it all back to everybody.
16:25
So is there a way through the the program like approach that
16:29
can kind of counteract that where you can keep the data in
16:33
house and not necessary? Is there a way to kind of work
16:37
synergistically with someone like that and still retain the
16:40
data? No.
16:41
Matter how hard you try, you want to always get the e-mail
16:43
address. You also know that the e-mail
16:46
address decays by about 3% month over month so that you know, but
16:50
what I'm, what I'm always trying to do is I'm trying to get the
16:52
name and the e-mail address. And then we use technologies
16:55
like seamless or other things like that to double verify the
16:58
e-mail address. But that's going to be the goal
17:02
that you want to make sure that I think a lot of people grade
17:05
their marketing on how much money did I make?
17:08
Well, subscribers have to be a critical part of this process.
17:11
You know, it's like you Google couldn't dethrone Facebook
17:15
because Facebook actually had the people, you know, they were
17:18
already invested, they were already pregnant.
17:21
You know, it's just really hard for them to say, oh, leave
17:23
Facebook and come here. And so one of the things that
17:25
you don't want to do is you don't want to wake up one day
17:27
know that you've worked so hard in marketing and you look at
17:30
your database or basically your e-mail list and it's 1000
17:33
people, you know, that's you made great transactions, you
17:37
made great income, but it'll never compound.
17:41
That's why I like Neil. That's why I like Neil Patel.
17:43
I'm just real quick, Neil Patel's like, I got this idea
17:46
that I did it and I made, you know, $11 million on $5000 worth
17:49
of advertising. And I'm like, yeah, that's
17:51
really cool. But you also have an e-mail list
17:53
of 3.8 million people. Like, I could literally sell.
17:56
I could sell catch up to a woman wearing white gloves by 3
18:01
million people, yeah. There's bound to be some people
18:03
wearing white gloves in an audience that size.
18:05
That, that product that we were talking about beforehand, I'm
18:09
not going to drop the name in the, in this conversation, but
18:11
that product and that person that we were discussing, I think
18:15
a lot of it, the notoriety and the ability to get the word out
18:18
based off of the initial launch campaign came to his success on
18:24
TV and his success on his Instagram account.
18:27
And that I think was the initial driver to the product and the
18:30
the the the success that he had. So he found me on Instagram.
18:35
Yeah, yeah, I bought it. You touched on e-mail marketing
18:40
and I think programmatic, especially programmatic plus AI,
18:42
sounds like the future of marketing or future of
18:44
advertising. But what about older tools like
18:47
that, like e-mail? You mentioned the importance of
18:49
having your list and I think you know that's pretty commonly
18:52
espoused, you know the concept that you should own your
18:55
audience. But what role does e-mail
18:58
marketing play? I mean, if we are are choosing
19:01
our channels or if maybe we have a limited budget, we can't go
19:04
full hog on on programmatic. Is there still play in the
19:06
e-mail? Absolutely.
19:08
I, I so here's one of the things that this is a little bit of a
19:11
flex, but I wrote when I, I, I got, I became a Forbes
19:15
contributor. And when I did that, I wrote my
19:17
first article called Building Your House on Sand.
19:20
And the concept of that article was you can invest all your
19:24
money and time and energy into SEO and they can do an algorithm
19:27
change and it's gone. We have tons of stories of
19:29
people went all in on Facebook and then Facebook didn't change.
19:32
It's gone. All these things are controlled
19:34
by man. I've said the the joke three
19:36
times, but the, the overlords that control it, they set up all
19:39
the rules. There's no algorithm.
19:41
Theoretically with e-mail, I mean, you don't want to get
19:44
caught in spam boxes, but in you own the list and so you actually
19:48
get to own it. And so that is a luxury that you
19:53
should always just try to like, prize and respect.
19:56
And like we just said, we want to own that.
19:58
But I think one of the critical things about e-mail is just that
20:00
a lot of people e-mail wrong. And what I mean by that is, is
20:02
that they, they have their entire list and then they just
20:05
whack their entire list. The, the great companies take
20:09
their list and they do as much segmentation as possible.
20:12
And then they get strategic messaging to they'll send 5
20:16
emails to select groups, rather than one e-mail to the whole
20:19
damn list. And and by doing that or how can
20:25
you use just the e-mail address to differentiate who's in what
20:29
category? Well, I mean, a lot of times
20:31
we'll use technology that will get their e-mail address and
20:34
then the e-mail address will get the company and the title from
20:37
technologies like seamless or something like that that can
20:39
reverse engineer and kind of figure out where they live.
20:42
And then what I tried to do is I tried to find out, hey, how many
20:44
verticals am I actually serving or how can I group or lump these
20:46
people in together so that when I'm emailing and I'm doing it
20:52
for manufacturers, my messaging is very, very different than
20:55
when I do for orthopedics clients.
20:58
Yeah, No, it makes sense. I mean, I guess that's the sort
21:01
of the programmatic version of of e-mail and it it's probably a
21:04
little bit more clunky. You know, it's not as
21:07
streamlined or as slick as as using these new AI processes.
21:10
Although I have to imagine e-mail is improving too.
21:12
Oh I got AI, got AI, got a story about how AI like this should.
21:17
Aren't you allowed to curse on the show?
21:18
Yeah, go right ahead. Try not too free for benefit.
21:22
Yeah, you can do it anymore. Yeah.
21:24
So I've got a buddy of mine and he's using the technology here.
21:28
And this is like in beta and the guy's literally using ChatGPT
21:34
and or just GPT, sorry, not ChatGPT.
21:37
GPT and the GPT basically will go into your HubSpot and it'll
21:42
look at all the records in HubSpot.
21:44
And then from HubSpot, it'll find the guy's name, their
21:47
e-mail address, and their social handles.
21:50
And through GPT it'll say, you know, hey Mike, it's been 30
21:55
days since we talked. I loved the article that you
21:58
posted on LinkedIn about the five ways that you should, you
22:01
know that audio is killing podcasts.
22:04
Also thought it was really cool that you formed your company 13
22:07
years ago. Wanted to keep my name in front
22:09
of you. Think you're the best.
22:10
We should schedule a time to grab some lunch and it will know
22:14
three different things. One, that you're local to me.
22:16
Two, it'll know what you posted on your social media.
22:18
And three, it's going to e-mail you and send you that article
22:24
and you didn't do anything. Yeah, no, it, it's incredible.
22:28
And I mean, I've only played with with the ChatGPT side, but
22:30
I've, I've played with it enough just to kind of dabble.
22:33
And I was actually using it to just like brainstorm some like
22:37
strategic thought around a company that I'm advising.
22:40
And, you know, the idea was, OK, hey, we're speaking to this
22:43
audience. We want to tell them something
22:44
that's sort of, you know, intriguing or will pique their
22:46
interest. You know, what are their, what
22:48
are their problems? What are their needs?
22:50
And, you know, I mean, I guess if you fully trust the GPT, then
22:54
it came back with a great, I mean, it came back with a nice
22:56
spiel, right? That feels pretty good.
22:58
I mean, I guess you'd have to try it and vet it and see if it
23:01
actually works. But I mean, it was pretty darn
23:03
remarkable what it could come back with.
23:04
And you know, I've used Mid journey and some of the other AI
23:08
tools for imagery, but this was my first attempt at something
23:11
outside of some AI integrations in different like social media
23:16
publishing platforms, for example.
23:18
Some some of these guys are starting to integrate AI, you
23:21
know, so that you can send out automated messaging or whatever.
23:24
But I found in almost all of them, the messaging is almost
23:28
not usable. Like it's pretty bad.
23:30
And so but this ChatGPT is pretty slick.
23:33
It's it's, it's pretty slick. And to be able to stay
23:36
contextual and hone and hone and hone, I think it's really cool.
23:39
I mean, the, I'll say two things and I want to make sure that I'm
23:42
afraid that you and I are the three of us.
23:45
We're going to progress in the conversation.
23:46
I'm going to get, I'm going to miss some of these critical
23:48
things. And I think that this has to be
23:49
known. The first thing is, is that in
23:53
19 O3, the Wright brothers flew the plane 10 feet off the air,
23:58
off the ground for about 100 yards.
24:00
Totally innovative, blew every, all the competition away in
24:05
1969. We landed on the moon.
24:08
So in only 66 years, like that's a big jump in 66 years.
24:14
We're doing these, these chat, these, this AI stuff is coming,
24:19
but it's not coming in years. It's coming in weeks and months.
24:22
OK, 'cause you have, you have ChatGPT 4, you have GPT 4 coming
24:26
out. Google has Palm.
24:28
They, I don't know how they pronounce it, but it's spelled
24:30
PALM. They're going to have their AI.
24:33
All that stuff is just, it's all coming out so rapid fire.
24:36
And so the speed of technology is crazy.
24:39
And so when I think of ChatGPT, I'm like, it doesn't do
24:43
everything I want and everything I hoped.
24:46
But I'm telling you, this is what AI looks like when you're
24:49
flying at 10 feet off the ground.
24:50
Yeah, where it's going, it's going to knock your freaking
24:53
socks off. Yeah, and it's funny because
24:55
we're we had a conversation, we had a guy on the podcast a
24:57
couple weeks ago that runs an AI company that basically builds an
25:02
AI presence of you based on all your content that you've put out
25:05
on the Internet and build sort of a virtual you that people can
25:08
talk to. And we brought this up because
25:10
at the moment there was a news story about people using ChatGPT
25:13
to write college essays and stuff like that.
25:15
And my wife teaches in junior high here in Utah and it's, you
25:20
know, so we were just having a conversation about is this
25:22
technology going to screw it up for everybody?
25:25
And, you know, and it's funny. And so we brought it up with
25:27
this guy and he, you know, obviously a pioneer in AI and
25:30
he's like, no, no, no, he's like, The thing is, we'll build
25:32
an AI on top of that AI that can tell that it was AI.
25:36
Like he's like, it'll just get better.
25:37
It'll layer and layer and layer. And eventually you'll have a is
25:40
that can read the AI and recognize that it's AI so that
25:43
you don't have to worry about it, you know, so.
25:44
We're already there in the aspect of and this is that was
25:47
brings me to my second point. It's just that my fear of this
25:50
AI phase that we're in right now is the over adoption and
25:55
overreaction to what it really is.
25:58
So it should be a tool that assists you, but it shouldn't be
26:00
a tool that replaces what you do.
26:02
So what I'm seeing is a ton of people that are jumping out,
26:06
going into the content marketing game, writing tons of stuff for
26:09
their website, but open AI, you can even check out their
26:12
website. They literally have a watermark
26:15
technology so that Google and others will know that this
26:18
content is written with AI. So that's step number one is, is
26:22
that if this is an eminent threat to Google, all of a
26:25
sudden they could just be like, hey, anything that was AI
26:28
generated doesn't index. So you could literally be
26:31
building your house on sand. It's the same algorithm problem
26:33
we had before. So I, I've been getting into
26:36
software over the last few years and I just went through a coding
26:40
boot camp and a lot of the, the hype right now is that, well,
26:45
what were they going to need us for?
26:47
You know, like what, what, what's the, the relevance of
26:50
someone who's, you know, manually typing the code out?
26:53
And I've tried it, I've gone to ChatGPT.
26:55
I've said I need a model structure for this and I need it
26:58
to be in this language and it just spits it out.
27:01
But I, I honestly think that it's not going to be like, what
27:07
I think will end up happening in the long run is it will replace
27:10
a lot of us, but it won't replace all of us because
27:13
someone still has to sit behind the computer and tell it what
27:16
you need. So there's, I think there's
27:18
still relevance. I think there's still a place
27:20
for people in the equation. But I think it's it, it is going
27:24
to be, if anything, it's just going to be a, the encyclopedia
27:29
back in the day was revolutionary.
27:30
Google was revolutionary. All these things are
27:33
revolutionary and they're just tools to get to the end point.
27:36
And it'll just help you do it a little bit easier.
27:38
And then and the average person can can leverage it more versus
27:42
going to a big software firm and needing all the their help.
27:47
You know, you know what I mean? You'd see what I'm.
27:48
Getting at, I think it's, I think it's who's controlling the
27:50
tool. So like when the Abacus was
27:52
there and then the calculator came out, nobody said, Oh my
27:54
gosh, counting's dead. Why do you need ACPA?
27:57
Yeah, right. And I know that's a little
27:58
facetious, but I also think, and you know, you guys know when the
28:02
client hires you and let's say hypothetically you bill out at
28:05
$150.00 an hour, right? It's only maybe 5 to $8000
28:09
before you're at 40, you know, like basically 40 hours.
28:14
I'm trying to do the math real quick, but essentially my point
28:17
is, is that when you work for a client, there's you're probably
28:20
only doing about 20% of what you're capable of doing because
28:24
their budget ran out. You know, that's what it is in
28:28
the service industry. Now what's going to happen now
28:31
is, is that we're going to be able to say, hey, foundational
28:33
content for the most part is taken care of.
28:36
Now what's all the creative stuff that we can do on top?
28:40
What is your ACT to where you're going to bring as much value as
28:43
possible in an ever changing landscape?
28:46
And the companies that don't have act to, they're in trouble.
28:49
But the companies that do have an act to, and they're always
28:52
dreaming about how do I use that tool to make even more creative
28:55
value? Those are the companies that are
28:57
going to crush it. And they're going to use those
28:59
tools as an asset, not a replacement.
29:02
Yeah, to that point, that was part of what my discussion with
29:07
my wife was right after we talked to this AI expert, was
29:10
that even though people, yes, they'll be able to use an AI to
29:14
generate some copy or whatever they want, like so much of it
29:18
still depends on the individual being able to ask the right
29:20
questions, being able to do all that stuff, right.
29:22
So if the argument is kids are never gonna have to learn how to
29:25
write essays because now they can just fake essays, it's like,
29:28
well, no, they still have to have the foundational knowledge
29:31
and the even foundational like grammar knowledge to be able to
29:35
take that, you know, thing that the AI spit out and make sure
29:38
that it's grammatically accurate.
29:39
And you know, there's still a lot of skills that you're gonna
29:41
have to have to correct that stuff.
29:43
And you know, for people that have used Mid Journey or similar
29:46
AI platforms for graphics, I mean, it's like speaking in code
29:49
to get it to actually generate what you want it to generate,
29:51
right? So it still requires kind of
29:53
creative thinking and then all the things that it would make
29:55
take to create that asset yourself, But now you're just
29:59
using a different tool. So I think that, you know, to
30:02
your point about a second act, you know, or people being able
30:05
to do that, I mean, yes, one thing is this technology is
30:07
coming around, but the people who can truly master it and use
30:10
it to their own success and the success of their clients are
30:13
gonna be the ones that stand out.
30:15
Yep. My fear though, is the clients
30:17
are gonna be like, hey, I don't need you to I you can't charge
30:20
me that price for a blog. You could write, you could spin
30:22
it up in 15 seconds. I'm like, no, I can't.
30:25
No, I can't. Well, and there's also sort of
30:27
the aspect of of core knowledge, right?
30:29
I mean, yes, even if you could do it in 15 minutes, well, I can
30:32
do it in 15 minutes because I've been doing it for 20 years.
30:35
You know, you go ahead and try and if you want to, you know,
30:38
take a shot at doing it yourself, you can, I mean, the
30:40
reason you bring on an expert is because of their expertise.
30:43
It's not because of their ability to use a tool, for
30:45
example, you know, and you know, I, I think that that's one of
30:49
those sort of common things and it and it is for sure what a
30:52
customer would push back with, right?
30:54
It's like, why am I paying you so much?
30:55
I could do this myself. OK, do it yourself and then call
30:58
me back when you need me to come back on.
31:00
And so at least that's how it always worked out for me.
31:03
You ever seen the adage where the guy, I'm going to butcher
31:05
it, but let's just pretend like it was a boat.
31:07
And So what happens? They have this boat, they got to
31:08
get it into the water and they can't figure it out.
31:11
So they call this expert. The expert comes in, got
31:14
overalls on or whatever it was, and he just goes over to the
31:16
part of the boat and just in two hacks of wax of tool, he
31:20
basically fixes the boat in 10 minutes, right?
31:24
And then all of a sudden they give an invoice and he gives an
31:25
invoice for $20,000 and the guy's like $20,000.
31:29
I've been here for 2 minutes and he goes, no, the 2010 thousand,
31:34
no $20. It was for like basically using
31:38
my hammer and tapping it to make sure that it was right.
31:40
The other $18,000 or whatever that was, you know, the, my, my
31:43
mouse already off. But that was 18.
31:45
The other $18,000 was the 25 years it took me to know the
31:49
exact spot where to hit. So all of the tribal knowledge,
31:52
all the, the, you know, all of that stuff.
31:54
I wasn't born every night. I was born out of 10,000 hours
31:58
of doing it wrong. Figure how to do it right so
32:01
that you get to win in five seconds.
32:04
Yeah. I think that's right.
32:05
And I mean, I think that that is sort of, you know, the way of
32:08
the world actually. And I think for people who are
32:10
afraid of AI and and advancing tools, it's no different than
32:13
the the guy that used to shoe horses, you know, getting all
32:16
bummed out when the Model T rolled off.
32:17
You know, I mean, like, yeah, change does happen and people
32:21
are afraid of change. But if you think about it more
32:23
as like a layering on instead of a, a direct replacement, for
32:26
example. So, you know, yeah, now you're
32:28
not shoeing horses, but the skills you learned, you know,
32:31
working metal, now you can build fenders for.
32:33
The will will Ryan in in that same analogy, right?
32:37
Horses didn't go anywhere. There's still horses that need
32:40
to be shoed, but there's less people to know how to do it.
32:44
And if you still have that knowledge and that ability to do
32:48
it, now you're a commodity. Now you're in in the minority
32:52
and people have to look you up and find you to be able to do
32:55
that. So I.
32:57
Mean anybody who's trying to build a house or needs to have a
32:59
plumber over or needs an electrician or something right
33:02
now is really experiencing this where the people who are really
33:05
skillful and, you know, masters of their trade, they're hard to
33:09
find right now. And you know, if you need those
33:11
kind of people, you know, they're just not, they don't
33:13
exist. Everybody went into tech and
33:14
political science and all that kind of stuff.
33:16
And, and you're left with very few real technicians.
33:20
You know, I mean, I've always told my boys like if they felt
33:22
like they didn't want to go to college, I was like, you know
33:23
what? Just go apprentice at a plumber
33:25
shop and figure that out because you're you make $1,000,000 being
33:28
the best bummer in town. Yeah, well, you know, and it
33:31
goes one step further too. So let's just pretend like we're
33:34
going to look at the way content is developed in the traditional
33:37
sense. And so if you looked at a
33:38
buyer's journey, right? If you broke it down into 3
33:41
categories, awareness level content, consideration level
33:43
content and awareness consideration and decision level
33:46
content, right? If I'm, if I'm going to buy a
33:49
car in the awareness stage, I'm like, hey, I bought a car, my
33:53
car broke down or I want something cool.
33:54
So in the awareness stage, hey, I need some general information
33:57
on what are the cool cars that are out there.
33:59
Then in the consideration stage, then I'm trying to hone it in.
34:02
Do I want an SUV, a sedan or whatever that is?
34:05
And then in the decision level stage, I'm going to figure out
34:07
the the dealership, make, model, color, all the other details.
34:12
The ChatGPT is going to really take a bite out of the awareness
34:15
level content, the consideration and decision level content that
34:20
deals with your company, your brand, your voice, your unique
34:22
selling proposition. And no matter how hard ChatGPT
34:25
does in the ideal sense, they can scour everything you ever
34:29
written and sound like you and your voice.
34:32
But right now, it cannot do that.
34:34
It can't do consideration, It can't do decision level content
34:37
because it just doesn't know me versus you.
34:39
I mean, I do some advertising, Ryan does some advertising, but
34:42
I don't even know what you do differently than me, Ryan.
34:45
I don't and ChatGPT won't either.
34:47
Yeah, well, and actually that was one of the things when I was
34:49
playing with ChatGPT or GPT, I was asking it questions cuz I
34:53
was trying to basically write an essay to show my wife how this
34:56
thing would work, right? So I was like, OK, well, I was
34:58
asking it about Macbeth and what are the themes that exist in the
35:01
story. And it put together this nice
35:03
long thing, but I needed references.
35:05
I needed it to quote some things.
35:07
I needed it to do all this stuff.
35:08
And even though it has access to the world's information, it
35:11
didn't have like that granular little bit that we're writing
35:14
this particular style of essay and we need to include data from
35:17
these different places. And, you know, like, I mean, I
35:19
think it could probably do it with more fine tuning and honing
35:22
and stuff like that. But I found that it didn't seem
35:24
to call out that much. It rather took this collective
35:27
knowledge and gave you a response from its knowledge.
35:29
And I don't know if that's a generation or the type of
35:32
questions I was asking, but it seemed like it wasn't fully
35:34
formed yet. I think that the next generation
35:37
will allow you to import the critical information and how you
35:42
want to say it. So you were talking about Mike
35:45
was talking about specialist that they have coders now.
35:50
But what would a specialist look like in a year or ten years,
35:52
whatever five years, whatever it is, it's going to be the people
35:55
that know how to feed the beast the most efficiently and the
35:58
best and and fastest. So if this thing is like a
36:01
vacuuming just basically sucks all the stuff and spits it out,
36:05
it's going to be the people that know how to feed the beast most
36:08
effectively so that when it doesn't output through AI, it it
36:12
basically can read through the clutter and, and do all that
36:15
stuff. And so eventually they're going
36:17
to get to a spot where they were going to be able to read very
36:20
quickly everything I've ever written, said and done and then
36:24
speak in my voice. That's.
36:25
That's actually the guy that we interviewed 2 two weeks ago.
36:28
That's his whole concept is by feeding it with your content and
36:33
your voice. It actually hones it down to be
36:36
more precise and to sound more like you and your style per SE
36:42
versus a, a general, you know, just tell me about Macbeth.
36:45
It would tell if Ryan would go into that website and say tell
36:49
me a a thing about Macbeth, but it would come out sounding like
36:53
Ryan. Yeah, just pretty unique.
36:56
Yeah, it's really interesting. And I actually had a long talk
36:58
with them after about how we can, you know, leverage this
37:01
tool, you know, on our podcast or in other places.
37:04
And I mean, this, this idea of a knowledge base.
37:07
And, and part of what really piqued my interest with this guy
37:11
that came on, I wish he has a, a Indian name.
37:15
And so it's really hard to say otherwise.
37:16
I'd just say his name. So, but the company's personal
37:18
AI, I just don't want to screw it up without a note in front of
37:21
me. But the company is called
37:22
personal AI. And basically what they do is we
37:24
have a friend that's a guest of the show or has been on the
37:27
show, this guy Chris Doe, and he's really interested in
37:30
building AAI persona of himself that people can use to ask
37:33
questions of his consulting practice, right?
37:35
I mean, a lot of his audience can't really afford to hire him.
37:39
And so, but they e-mail him the same 50 questions, you know, 100
37:43
times a day. And so he's trying to build this
37:45
platform for doing that. And I don't know what what
37:47
platform or software he's using, but personal AI will do
37:49
something like that. But what it does is it sort of
37:51
constrains your knowledge base to your knowledge base.
37:54
So instead of like scouring the world for data, it rather will
37:57
look at every YouTube video you've produced and every
38:00
article you've written and every website you've written and
38:03
whatever else, and take your amalgamation of knowledge and
38:06
then in your voice basically respond to these questions.
38:09
And so I think it's really interesting the implications,
38:11
but it seems that for any anybody who's like afraid of AI,
38:15
it's like we really need to look at it more as like our friend or
38:18
like our compatriot in whatever it is we're trying to do.
38:21
Because it's going to facilitate, you know, ease of,
38:23
of doing so many different things that it's better to just
38:26
kind of work with it than be afraid of it.
38:28
Yeah, You know, we were saying like if it's either get out in
38:30
front of it or you're going to get rolled over by it.
38:33
Yeah, yeah. And I think.
38:34
That's you can, you can bury your head in the sand, but it's
38:36
not, it's, it's going to be here whether you like it or not.
38:39
I mean, like, I don't want the metaverse at all.
38:41
Like I, I, I, I watched a ton of stuff on what Mark was trying to
38:44
sell Mark, like I know him, call him Mark Zuckerberg.
38:49
I freaking guy. Anyhow, I don't want that world,
38:54
but it's coming whether I like it or not.
38:55
I mean, my kids are going to be best friends with kids in China
38:58
that look like elephants and all these other crazy avatars.
39:02
That world's bizarre to me, but it's coming.
39:05
I don't, I, I'm not, I'm not going to be able to stop it.
39:08
So, so actually I want to go down that rabbit hole.
39:11
You as a, as someone who's in the advertising world, I've,
39:15
I've actually had a discussion with the, the person in
39:19
advertising in a radio station and we've actually discussed
39:24
this, you know, the metaverse and how, how would that affect
39:28
future ad campaigns? I mean, are you, are you taking
39:31
that into consideration as a place to actually advertise?
39:36
Once it reached critical mass, if it if it has the adoption
39:39
levels that it should, you know, yeah.
39:42
I mean, I, I listen to a lot of Scott Galloway and I actually
39:45
believe that the. I like Scott too.
39:47
He's great. Yeah.
39:49
Like he believes that the metaverse is actually going to
39:51
be Airpods, you know? Yeah.
39:54
And that you're going to be able to get custom information very
39:57
specific to your likes and stuff like that.
39:59
It's just going to be mostly in your ears because I think a lot
40:02
of people just believe that, oh, the metaverse is here, but you
40:05
got to wear this console. And if you just know anything
40:08
about the dynamics of the way you're you're built, the screen
40:11
has to be a certain distance from your thing.
40:13
It's not. They're going to be able to put
40:14
contacts lenses with the stuff on because they can't power
40:16
them. And so no one wants to wear this
40:19
clunky thing. Like it's fun to go into an
40:21
Oculus and. Pick off a cat off the top of
40:24
the building without wondering whether you're going to get
40:26
whatever, you know, like Matt, choose your adventure in in the
40:28
Oculus world, but you do want to take them off.
40:31
You don't want to live there. But when we can get the
40:34
metaverse in our ears, right, we'll live in that world.
40:38
And so I think that the jump 1st jump is going to be AR and then
40:42
it's going to be whatever this metaverse is that he's he's
40:46
talking about. I the technology is not.
40:50
Yeah, I mean, even talking about just the programmatic
40:52
advertising we were talking about, I mean, if you could be
40:54
walking past my virtual storefront and get pinged in the
40:57
ear, you know, you know, hey man, I noticed you were nearby.
41:00
Why do you come in, you know, hang out, you know, or whatever.
41:03
I mean, cuz I think that, you know, there's a lot of different
41:05
versions of what the metaverse might be.
41:06
That's the first I've heard of it being in your ears, which is
41:08
really interesting. And, and I think what people go
41:10
to is the VR goggles or whatever.
41:13
And yeah, I played a little around a little bit with
41:15
Decentraland, and it was like sort of right in the middle of a
41:18
land grab, right? So everybody's buying up their
41:20
property and all that stuff so that you've got this.
41:22
And in my mind, it's like, OK, well, somebody's gonna have to
41:24
adopt this as the platform for that land to matter.
41:28
And so because I was like, maybe I want just one little brick in
41:31
there so that I can just, you know, have a virtual storefront
41:33
one day if this is where it ends up.
41:35
But, you know, but I'm not sure that that's gonna be what it is.
41:38
I think there's gonna always be sort of some need for, for real
41:43
life interaction, getting out, moving around and stuff.
41:46
I mean, you know, there's versions, you know, like if you
41:49
go full like Ready Player 1 where people just, you know, the
41:53
world's gotten so bad that we just do it all inside now.
41:56
But I prefer to be a little more optimistic and hope that's not
41:58
where we're ending up. Can you go ahead?
42:02
Oh, I was conceived you first. I wrote an article for Venture
42:08
Beat and just talked about the morality the advertiser should
42:10
have looking into this world that if they succeed on the
42:14
metaverse and they can make the virtual world more realistic or
42:18
as transparent as the world we're in, right?
42:21
It's like this whole like Garden of Eden thing, like you don't
42:24
want every desire you have. You think you do, but I promises
42:27
you don't. And so like, if you can't get
42:30
your kids off of Fortnite, what do you think it's going to be
42:33
like in the metaverse? And then when you're going to
42:35
look is you're going to marry that with AI and AI is going to
42:38
displace a crap ton of jobs. And then you're in a scenario
42:42
where you got a vast majority of the our country or the world
42:47
that's radically unemployable, that has access to another world
42:51
that they can just plug into and live there.
42:54
It's going to be this very world, we very weird world that
42:58
really technology that's trying to improve life is going to take
43:02
jobs away to to make life of the way to purpose.
43:06
You're going to find purpose in a fake life.
43:10
I hope I had to get weird on you here but that's literally what I
43:13
was trying to say. I'm like, all these two things
43:15
are like a collision course that is just like, holy crap.
43:19
And I think that's the threat, right?
43:21
And I think it's also the the same kind of concern that people
43:23
have had with other technologies along the way, right?
43:25
I remember somebody saying that there was a belief early on when
43:29
they first created the locomotive that if the human
43:31
body moved more than like 30 miles an hour, we'd just go like
43:34
full liquid. Like I mean.
43:36
Just like we would just fall apart if we went faster than
43:38
that. And so there are a lot of people
43:39
worried about the railroad when they first started building that
43:42
out because they were afraid, you know, they'd get on the
43:44
train and then just die, vaporize.
43:46
And, you know, which is crazy when you think about it now in
43:48
retrospect. But I mean, you know, these are
43:50
the kinds of beliefs people have, right?
43:51
So I think there is a version of society and a a class of people
43:57
who will get lost in the metaverse.
43:59
And that'll be where they live. And it'll be very unfortunate.
44:01
And that'll just be sort of their their life.
44:03
And, you know, I mean, to your point about getting kids off,
44:06
you know, Fortnite or anything else, I mean, God, I can barely
44:08
pull the controller out of my kids hands with those things.
44:11
And so that's not even being fueled by AI or anything else
44:14
yet. I mean, just imagine when it's
44:16
fully immersive. And, you know, so I mean, I
44:19
think that the concern is real. And I like to give humans the
44:23
the benefit of the doubt that they will actually eat, you
44:26
know, realize that this isn't actually that good for them.
44:29
But I think it will take some, you know, eggs being broken to
44:32
get there. Sort of like what you saw with
44:33
social media or any of the rise of any of these other
44:36
technologies. But but here's the deal when cat
44:39
I'm going to blow this the the the details of the story out,
44:43
but the the premise is still the same.
44:44
When they realized that he did all the studies, I think it was
44:47
by Ford that basically realized that seat belt saved lives.
44:51
I forget what his name McNamara. The guy was the the the
44:56
Secretary of Defense for Kennedy, stuff like that.
44:58
Vietnam, basically. Before that he worked for Ford
45:00
and he proved that safe seatbelts save lives.
45:04
The seatbelts are inconvenient to wear.
45:06
And so it took 30 years for the regulators, the politicians, to
45:10
basically make seatbelts mandatory.
45:13
They data for 30 years. The problem is if the AI and the
45:17
technology move so fast, often times we look at politicians or
45:21
whatever it is to be the saviors of the moral police to figure
45:24
out what to do. I think that the technology is
45:27
moving so fast and if you haven't noticed, every
45:29
politician is over has Gray hair and is over the age of.
45:32
I was, I was just going to say that I'm like, there's no way
45:35
Nancy Pelosi and Bernie Sanders knows anything about AI and, and
45:40
the effects of what it's the long term effects.
45:43
We don't even know what the long term effects of, you know,
45:45
anything are that are that's currently coming out.
45:48
I mean, Facebook, TikTok, all these crazy things that have
45:51
come out in the last 10 years, we don't even have any data to
45:54
associate it to. So how are how is an 80 year old
45:57
person who hasn't been on the computer in 40 years going to
46:01
know anything about it? And that's that's super
46:03
infuriating to me is. It's bizarre, but even if let's
46:06
pretend like I could just put it in the hands of 30 year olds, 35
46:09
year olds or 40 year olds, right that that we're smart enough to
46:12
do it. The technology curve is so high.
46:14
It's just by the time you could even write a manual on saying,
46:16
hey, this is the implications get peer reviewed and stuff like
46:19
that, Chat PT 4 comes out, then chat PT 5 comes out.
46:23
It's like the speed of innovation is five times faster
46:26
than litigation. I mean, yeah, well, and this can
46:28
get anybody. With traditional education right
46:31
now too, like going through university programs and stuff, I
46:34
actually prefer the way that Mike went through this tech boot
46:36
camp or this coding boot camp. But at least you get sort of
46:39
current what's happening now kind of information and it's
46:42
done in 12 weeks and then you're on your way, right?
46:45
Versus the model where you go to a four year career.
46:48
And I mean, just take ChatGPT as an example.
46:51
Where was it if I started my bachelor's four years ago to
46:54
where it is today? How could I have taken an
46:55
education on how to write AI? And to say.
46:59
What happened right? Well, and I would even go as far
47:02
as to say as like the boot camp that I went to four months ago,
47:05
yeah, they were on the cutting edge, but ChatGPT wasn't even
47:09
out at that point. Now you could almost have a full
47:12
on boot camp on how to effectively use ChatGPT to
47:16
deploy code or to manage your server or to whatever it is that
47:20
you're trying to do. There's probably boot camps that
47:23
are spinning up right now specifically for that cause.
47:27
It's yeah. And if you haven't done it, I
47:29
take the the trademark on that and send your royalties my way
47:32
here. Talking to ChatGPT today about
47:36
spending up a course on ChatGPT. I, I speak at colleges all the
47:40
time because that's where I get our interns from.
47:42
And I hire a lot of interns to work here.
47:44
And The thing is for me is I try to use a little bit of the Steve
47:48
Jobs speech and just say like, hey, you know what, You got to
47:50
love what you do. And so while the technology and
47:53
all the stuff will change, if you love marketing, I have a
47:56
home for you here at Ferrotech. You know what I mean?
47:58
If you're the guy who's just looking to get by, not so much.
48:01
And so I guess where college will have it sort of its place
48:05
is use the technology at the time to develop an appreciation
48:09
of love and adoration for your craft, and then when you get in
48:13
the real world, try to figure out how your craft can actually
48:16
work. Yeah, I might just add to that
48:18
too, cuz I mean, we don't normally make a practice of
48:21
totally crapping on the education system, but even
48:24
though neither Mike or I are giant fans, but we don't
48:27
generally discount it. We just sort of attribute it to
48:29
whoever's, if it's your path, it's your path.
48:32
But the one thing I will say that we've learned, and I bring
48:35
this up all the time is in 300 interviews on this show, what
48:38
we've learned about people is that basically everything is a
48:41
layering of knowledge, right? And there's basically no wrong
48:45
steps along the way. Everything contributes to your
48:48
foundational core, whatever that is, right?
48:51
So like you're saying, use college to decide that you like
48:53
marketing and that sort of thing.
48:54
And I think that's right. And it will also be all the life
48:56
experiences up to that point and all the life experiences
48:59
afterwards that will sort of inform who you are and what you
49:01
care about and all those things. And so I don't think that any
49:04
path is wrong necessarily, right?
49:06
So I think that, you know, whether you go traditional
49:08
education or you decide to do it on your own, especially in a
49:12
tech realm, it's very possible to do things on your own these
49:14
days. I, I still think there's no
49:17
shortcut around this layering of stuff, right?
49:20
I don't think you're going to get it all from college.
49:21
I don't think you're going to get it all from a friend.
49:23
I don't think you know it. It takes sort of the
49:25
amalgamation of everything to get there.
49:27
Yeah, I mean, if you learn to learn or you learn to love to
49:30
learn, I think that's that's one of the big things that the
49:33
hardest thing for me is to justify a college like Bucknell
49:36
University charging $80,000 a year.
49:39
I mean, ultimately if if the only outcome we're going to get
49:44
from some parts of college or to learn to learn or to learn to
49:48
love to learn, $80,000 a year is a pretty expensive cost.
49:51
Well, what, what, what's that movie that you like dumb apples
49:58
or whatever It's how about the hunting, Goodwill hunting?
50:02
There's a quote in there where, where he's like, you know, you
50:06
spent $120,000 on your education that I can get from a couple
50:09
late fees from the Public Library.
50:12
And, and that's 100%. It is like if you have the
50:15
desire to get out and actually study and focus your on
50:19
yourself, you don't need the education.
50:21
You can get it yourself. It's all out there.
50:24
You want to go and get a college education.
50:26
They, they, there's full programs where you can do that
50:30
for free. You just got to go and do the
50:32
work, you know? I don't, this sounds crazy, but
50:35
I don't read very much and please don't hear that in a very
50:38
way I'm saying read books. And So what I do is I find an
50:41
interest in a book and then I go on YouTube and I watch all the
50:45
interviews of the author of that book and to promote the book he
50:49
tells me the best parts of the book.
50:51
And after I've watched 3 or 4 videos of the author saying the
50:55
good parts, if I still am I still interested, then I'll read
50:58
the book. Yeah, and I, I don't read.
51:01
I'll, I'll be on a trip for, you know, 12 hours and I'll put an
51:05
audio book on, but it'll be an audio book of something I'm
51:08
interested in, not necessarily just a fiction or, you know,
51:11
something to keep me busy. It's something that I have a
51:13
desire to learn. And that's that's.
51:17
And that's where this it's going to be bizarre because the let's
51:20
pretend like we start to live. I don't even get into we're
51:22
going to implant technology in our skin.
51:24
I do believe that's going to be happening so easily.
51:26
But let's pretend like this metaverse is in our ear, like
51:29
you're going to be driving and just be like hey, tell me 5
51:32
things about Abraham Lincoln I don't know and all of a sudden
51:35
your ears just going to be playing and you're going to be
51:36
learning at the speed. It's just going to be a faster
51:39
hose. I'm looking forward to that
51:42
because every time I ask Siri for anything, she's like, what?
51:45
I'm busy, yo. I'm so incredibly unimpressed
51:49
with Siri and Alexa. I really am.
51:51
Like, for as brilliant as they are, they're also like, that's
51:54
the best you could do. When ChatGPT comes out, I'm
51:57
like, it's leagues beyond these giants that were building these
52:00
other technologies. There should be like certain
52:03
intuitive things that are just crazy, you know, And I, I look
52:07
at some of these companies that are so big and I, I'm always
52:09
surprised at some of the subtle things that they miss.
52:12
And I'm just like, we're, you know, like, it's just bizarre.
52:15
Like my iPhone, I got the iPhone 14 and I returned it three
52:19
months later. And they're like, why would you
52:20
return it? I was like, because it's no
52:21
better than the 13. Yeah, no.
52:25
Well, and it's funny, like the one I always call out is Apple
52:27
Maps. And like an Apple fanboy, you
52:31
know, the Macs, the iPhones, the Apple watches, everything,
52:33
right? I buy all their crap and Apple
52:36
Maps to me was half baked when they rolled it out.
52:38
And it still gets crap wrong all these years later.
52:41
And it's like Google Maps works perfect every time.
52:44
So it's like, OK, so you've got you're literally the most
52:47
valuable company on the planet. Like scoop up Google, then like
52:51
do something like just get me the best maps because I love
52:55
their interface. I love all their stuff, but the
52:56
the tool is not reliable. And so it's funny because it's
53:00
just, you know, to your point, they they got more money than
53:02
God, but they can't fix the little problems.
53:04
And that's the issue with, you know, these, these, you know,
53:06
self help bots, the series and the the googles and all that.
53:10
And so. Can I?
53:11
Listening, I still, I still love her.
53:13
It's 1:30, but I want to make sure I get this one story out
53:15
because it relates back to Apple Maps.
53:17
Yeah. So when we do this thing, we
53:20
develop comprehensive systems for marketing.
53:22
And what we do is, is that we talk to clients and what they'll
53:27
do is they'll say, you know, we need more traffic to our
53:30
website. And I'm like, what happens if
53:33
you win? And like, what do you mean what
53:35
happens if I win? We get more clients.
53:36
I'm like, well, let's pretend like I got a bucket and the
53:39
bucket has holes in it, right? And then what happens here is
53:43
like, pour more and more water into the bucket and it drains
53:46
out the bottom. What you keep doing as a
53:49
customer saying the answer to my problems is more water, I'm
53:52
like, no, it's not, dude. I'm like, I need to plug the
53:55
holes in the bucket. I want to get your story just
53:57
right. I want to get it when they come
53:58
to your website, they get immediate value.
54:00
They know exactly what you do. How many websites do you go to
54:02
and you don't even know what they do.
54:04
I want to be able to get all of these foundational things rock
54:07
solid so that when I do put water in, it actually sticks and
54:11
it stays because the answer to the problem is not more traffic
54:14
and it's not more water. The answer your question is
54:17
like, what do I get? Like it's so it costs a lot of
54:20
money to bring traffic. Why don't I retain the ones that
54:24
I have? Because here's the deal.
54:25
In certain markets, you only get one bite of the apple.
54:28
No pun intended here because I am going to circle back to that.
54:31
Apple Maps could be freaking incredible right now.
54:34
I don't go back to it because they they had my attention and
54:37
they lost it. They did a crappy roll out and I
54:41
don't trust them. Who are companies that would
54:44
come to me already doing that like bring me traffic.
54:47
I was like with your messaging, what have I don't?
54:50
I can bring you traffic. I don't know whether I can bring
54:52
them back because when they got there the first time, they were
54:55
so disappointed. Why would they come back?
54:57
You know what I mean? And this is what happens all the
55:01
time, you know, I mean, like Apple, the king of the world.
55:04
And you, Joe the plumber, it's the same problem.
55:11
Yeah. So I I've been down this rabbit
55:13
hole right recently trying to find a docking station for my my
55:17
computer that I just got and I bought 1 and it showed up it
55:21
worked for a day and it stopped working.
55:23
So I sent it back and they sent me a replacement and the
55:27
replacement didn't work. So you can bet your butt I'm not
55:30
going to go and go through the hassle of sending it back and
55:33
trying to get a third one because it's just going to be
55:35
the same problem. So I went and bought a whole
55:37
nother unit and I just washed my hands of that money and I'm over
55:41
it. It's the same same kind of
55:43
principle. You, you know, it's like you buy
55:46
a product that's inferior. It doesn't work.
55:48
That name brand that's associated to that product now
55:51
is no longer a a brand I'm willing to work with.
55:55
Yeah, well, and what's worse is you will then also tell your
55:57
friends when I come to you and say, hey, you know, I need a
56:00
dock for my Mac. How it you know?
56:01
What can you recommend? You say I don't know which one
56:04
you want, but you don't want this one.
56:05
I know that one. Yeah.
56:07
Exactly. So, you know, so I mean, that's
56:09
really the problem, right? I mean, they got your money,
56:11
right? They got you.
56:12
But to, to Chris's point, like you're not coming back and
56:15
you're also telling your friends, so you're keeping them
56:17
from going in the 1st place. And so I mean, it's, you know,
56:20
incredibly important to have, you know, great, you know, user
56:23
experience and customer experience.
56:25
But the idea that I think Chris is trying to articulate is, you
56:28
know, you got to plug the holes before you fill the water.
56:30
Like, I mean, the water doesn't do you any good.
56:33
You just end up drowning if you you know if your bucket's full
56:35
of holes. Yeah, Apple Maps could be
56:38
phenomenal. I will never check it out if.
56:41
You want So anyway, Chris, well, you know, like you mentioned,
56:44
we're sort of at the top of the hour.
56:46
Do you want to take a quick minute and just let people know
56:48
where they can track you down online?
56:49
Engage with you if they want to have a conversation, or maybe
56:52
look up Ferrotech? Get online, sure.
56:54
Sure. So I'm allowed to plug myself
56:55
here, right? So if you go to fairtech.com,
56:58
farotech.com, you can also e-mail me at info@fairtech.com.
57:03
One of the things that we do that's very unique is that we
57:05
sit down with our clients and we develop what's called a gap
57:08
assessment. And a gap assessment is A10 week
57:10
deep dive. Look how thick this book is.
57:13
This 10 week deep dive is our three to five year road map so
57:16
that when we work with clients, we know how to figure out every
57:20
critical dial that we need to turn to make the next three to
57:23
five years explosive for your business.
57:25
Very few marketing companies are willing to take that level of
57:28
discovery, you know, to get the results that we need.
57:31
And so when I speak with people, the number one thing I want them
57:34
to do is I want to give you as much information as possible to
57:37
make an educated choice on what to do next.
57:40
And so if you sit down with me for an hour, I'm not going to
57:42
try to sell you. I'm just going to try to get you
57:45
the information you need to decide for yourself.
57:48
So anyhow, you can reach me at fairtech.com.
57:51
But I think the main thing I want people to know is that
57:53
we're just not a heavy-handed sales company.
57:54
We just love to talk to people that want to, that want to grow,
57:57
that want to transform, that want to do really great things.
58:01
So that's my plug. I appreciate the the the minute
58:04
to. No, that's awesome.
58:06
Well, and I think it's a real value.
58:07
I mean, obviously this programmatic advertising I think
58:10
is is a hot item. I think it's a big part of the
58:12
way we market in the future. And it seems to be the most on
58:15
sort of the edge of what's new with technology versus a lot of
58:18
other channels. I mean, people are sort of
58:19
impending AI and things like that to older channels.
58:22
But I think that this is the most natural progression of that
58:25
technology. So I think it's really important
58:27
and I think it's awesome for our guests if they can get or our
58:30
listening audience if they can get in touch.
58:33
Yeah, so, well, I gotta say guys, I'm on, I do a podcast,
58:35
maybe I do about 3 a week. You guys are the easiest people
58:38
to talk to. I've I can tell you've done 300
58:41
interviews cuz this was like, Oh my gosh, an hour I think.
58:45
So yeah, no time really flew by, and in fact, I've still got, I
58:47
mean, I'm not even sure we actually hit our question list.
58:49
Which is, yeah, I didn't even look at it.
58:51
Honestly. Yeah.
58:53
So, so I mean it speaks to your podcast experience as well.
58:55
You know, not everybody makes a great guest.
58:57
So thanks for taking the time to do this.
58:58
We really appreciate. It got it.
58:59
My pleasure. Absolutely.
59:01
And thanks so much to everybody who tunes into the show this
59:03
week and every week. And we'll see you guys next
59:05
time.