Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Best of 2023 #1 - #721 Defusing Explosive Children with Dr Ross Greene

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Best of 2023 #1 - #721 Defusing Explosive Children with Dr Ross Greene · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
0:07
Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers now gday. This
0:11
Speaker 1: is doctor Justin Colson. Welcome to a Happy Families podcast. We've
0:14
Speaker 1: been counting down all this week our top five podcasts
0:18
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three based on how many times you've
0:22
Speaker 1: downloaded and listened to them. The most listened to podcast
0:25
Speaker 1: of the year is coming up in a couple of seconds.
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Speaker 1: A quick intro though. Doctor Ross Green is the man
0:32
Speaker 1: who is behind a book called The Explosive Child. The
0:35
Speaker 1: Explosive Child and we had a two part episode with
0:40
Speaker 1: Ross where we talked about all kinds of things around
0:43
Speaker 1: diffusing explosive children. Now, only one of those episodes made
0:47
Speaker 1: it into our top five, and it was our number one.
0:50
Speaker 1: But one of asked our wonderful producer Jr. To do
0:54
Speaker 1: is to pull together both parts of that interview so
0:57
Speaker 1: you get the whole thing you can take your time
0:59
Speaker 1: listening to across the Christmas break. How to Diffuse Explosive
1:03
Speaker 1: Children from Doctor Ross Green, the most listened to podcast
1:07
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three on The Happy Family's podcast Enjoy Today.
1:15
Speaker 1: On the podcast, I have the opportunity to chat with
1:17
Speaker 1: somebody that I'm super excited to talk to. Had a
1:20
Speaker 1: couple of conversations with doctor Ross Green, an associate clinical
1:24
Speaker 1: professor at Harvard Medical School and the originator of the
1:28
Speaker 1: model in the book The Explosive Child. More than half
1:31
Speaker 1: a million copies of this book have been sold, a
1:34
Speaker 1: new approach for understanding and parenting easily frustrated, chronically inflexible children.
1:40
Speaker 1: I love the book. Ross. You can see the dogged,
1:43
Speaker 1: highlighted nature of the book when I went through it,
1:45
Speaker 1: and it's just a delight to be able to talk
1:46
Speaker 1: with you today. Thanks for joining me on the podcast.
1:48
Speaker 2: I appreciate you invading me.
1:50
Speaker 1: Ross. One of the things that you are best known
1:52
Speaker 1: for saying, and it makes up an entire chapter Chapter
1:55
Speaker 1: two of the book is kids do well if they can.
2:01
Speaker 1: For parents who are struggling with children who are inflexible
2:05
Speaker 1: and rigid, and let's face it, just a little bit
2:08
Speaker 1: frustrating and even explosive. The idea that kids do well
2:11
Speaker 1: if they can is both comforting and confronting, because it's
2:16
Speaker 1: comforting meaning, well, the kids are doing the best that
2:18
Speaker 1: they can and they just can't do it right now.
2:19
Speaker 1: But it's also frustrating from the point of view that, well,
2:21
Speaker 1: why can't they do it like they did it yesterday
2:23
Speaker 1: or they did it last week? Can you elaborate a
2:26
Speaker 1: little bit more on this idea of kids do well
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Speaker 1: if they can?
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Speaker 3: There's a lot of science behind kids do all if
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Speaker 3: they can? A lot of research not on kids do
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Speaker 3: all if they can specifically, but research telling us why
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Speaker 3: kids who have concerning behaviors aren't doing well. And what
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Speaker 3: the research tells us, of course, is that they are
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Speaker 3: lacking crucial skills flexibility, adaptability, frustration tolerance, problem solving, emotion regulation.
2:57
Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to pause you right there, Ross, Let's
2:59
Speaker 1: come we talk about each of those four things five things.
3:02
Speaker 1: Because it's so easy to sit here in a podcast
3:04
Speaker 1: and go, yeah, okay, my kids don't have frustration tolerance,
3:07
Speaker 1: they don't have flexibility, adaptability, at motion regulation. Everyone nods
3:10
Speaker 1: their heads, But it's worth taking thirty seconds on each
3:13
Speaker 1: of them and saying, here's what they are and here's
3:14
Speaker 1: why they're lacking them. Can we please do that? That's
3:17
Speaker 1: so to me, really important.
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Speaker 3: I don't often get the chance to do that. Flexibility
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Speaker 3: and adaptability refers to your ability to deal with changes.
3:27
Speaker 1: They don't like that, right, Like when you're at the
3:29
Speaker 1: park with the kitschen you say it's time to go home.
3:31
Speaker 1: They're kind of in their own little world. They're saying,
3:34
Speaker 1: but I like it here, and now you're asking me.
3:35
Speaker 3: To change, right, And some kids are going to pout
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Speaker 3: about it. Some kids are going to go right along
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Speaker 3: with it, that's their personality. But kids who are lacking
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Speaker 3: the skills of flexibility and adaptability are going to get
3:50
Speaker 3: very upset by demands for change, especially if after we
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Speaker 3: demand that they shift gears quickly and they don't shift
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Speaker 3: gears quickly, all we do is insist harder or push
4:03
Speaker 3: harder that they shift quickly, and then you have concerning behavior.
4:08
Speaker 3: Concerning behavior occurs anytime you're placing demands on kids that
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Speaker 3: they're lacking the skills to handle. So there's flexibility adaptability.
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Speaker 3: Many of us take that skill for granted. I would
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Speaker 3: say demands for flexibility and adaptability for most human beings
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Speaker 3: happen many dozens of times every day, probably more so
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Speaker 3: for kids because we adults are so keen on telling
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Speaker 3: them what to do. Frustration tolerance. All of us gets frustrated.
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Speaker 3: How you manage that, whether you use your words, which
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Speaker 3: we say to two year olds, but which many of
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Speaker 3: the kids I work with who are fifteen still haven't mastered.
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Speaker 3: The ability to continue thinking clearly even if you are frustrated.
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Speaker 3: Crucial skill. We use it dozens of times every day,
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Speaker 3: easy to take for granted unless you are your kid
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Speaker 3: is lacking that skill problem solving. In my opinion, it
5:06
Speaker 3: should come first problem solving. I think if you twisted
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Speaker 3: my arm behind my back and said, ross most important
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Speaker 3: skill for life problem solving.
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Speaker 1: When you talk through these skills, and we'll tie it
5:22
Speaker 1: back to kids do well if they can in a
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Speaker 1: sec well, actually, I guess this does tie in. There's
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Speaker 1: a phrase that I use all the time with parents
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Speaker 1: when I'm chatting about how we can help our kids
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Speaker 1: navigate big emotions, but also how we can navigate our
5:33
Speaker 1: own big emotions, and that is the This is a shortcut.
5:38
Speaker 1: I know that you'll probably resistant least part of what
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Speaker 1: I'm saying here, but for simplicity's sake, I'll say to parents,
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Speaker 1: high emotions equals low intelligence. The more emotional we become,
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Speaker 1: the harder it is to think clearly, the problem solved,
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Speaker 1: to deal with the frustration, to regulate and step through it,
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Speaker 1: and so I guess when we talk about an explosive child,
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Speaker 1: the entire book and even the concept of kids do
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Speaker 1: well if they can, I'll comes down to let's help
6:01
Speaker 1: kids too, and let's help us as adults to keep
6:04
Speaker 1: our emotions and check so that we can solve problems effectively.
6:08
Speaker 3: Correct and in early editions of The Explosive Child, I
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Speaker 3: used to write that kids lost about forty IQ points
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Speaker 3: in the midst of frustration. The reason I took it
6:18
Speaker 3: out is because people were taking it literally and asking me,
6:21
Speaker 3: where's the research on that.
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Speaker 2: Right, No, it's a metaphor. It's a metaphor, but it
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Speaker 2: goes to what you're saying.
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Speaker 3: And then emotion regulation. Emotion regulation is huge. Life is
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Speaker 3: full of anxieties and frustrations and sadness. These are all
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Speaker 3: good emotions because they can propel us into action, says
6:45
Speaker 3: the research. But the other thing the research says is
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Speaker 3: that if we feel those emotions too strongly, they can
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Speaker 3: shut us down and make it harder for us to think.
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Speaker 3: So those are the global skills The research has identifiedly
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Speaker 3: hundreds of skills frequently found lacking in kids with social, emotional,
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Speaker 3: and behavioral challenges. Why do I say kids do all
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Speaker 3: if they can, because if you have those skills, you're
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Speaker 3: probably doing pretty well, and if you don't, you'd very
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Speaker 3: much like to be doing well, but something's getting in
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Speaker 3: your way.
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Speaker 1: What I love about that phrase as well, Ross is
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Speaker 1: kids do well if they can. Says we should trust
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Speaker 1: in the implicit in the innate desire of children to
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Speaker 1: do well. They want to do well, but they have
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Speaker 1: these challenges, these difficulties, these these skills that I yet
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Speaker 1: to be developed.
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Speaker 3: Here's the thing about that. That becomes philosophical, and sometimes
7:46
Speaker 3: in philosophical discussions there is no outcome because now you're
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Speaker 3: dueling about philosophies, the lagging skills research, and there are
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Speaker 3: hundreds of studies. Now for me, seals the philosophical debate.
8:04
Speaker 3: There is no philosophical debate. Kids do all if they
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Speaker 3: can wins, and I'm out into winning and losing. I'm
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Speaker 3: just saying if the alternative philosophy is kids do all
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Speaker 3: if they wanna, and that's going to lead us to
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Speaker 3: thinking that this kid doesn't want to do well, and
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Speaker 3: that's going to lead us to thinking it's our job
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Speaker 3: to make the kid wanna do well. The lagging skills
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Speaker 3: research puts that mentality to rest. It's been very popular
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Speaker 3: for a very long time, so I'm always I like
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Speaker 3: engaging in philosophical discussions. But that's one that should have
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Speaker 3: ended a very long time ago thanks to the literature
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Speaker 3: on lagging skills in kids with concerning behaviors.
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Speaker 1: Doctor Ross Green. He is the author of The Explosive
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Speaker 1: Child and associate clinical professor at Harvard Medical School. What
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Speaker 1: I'm hearing you say is some people will say it's
9:02
Speaker 1: a question of motivation. Others will say it's a question
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Speaker 1: of ability. You're highlighting this is an issue of ability.
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Speaker 1: Kids will do well if they have the ability. It's
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Speaker 1: not whether they're motivated to or not. They just don't
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Speaker 1: have the ability. And I would throw in here as well.
9:14
Speaker 1: Context is everything. Just because a child has the ability
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Speaker 1: at seven thirty am doesn't mean that they'll have the
9:19
Speaker 1: ability at six thirty pm.
9:21
Speaker 3: Correct, So there's always life's contextual factors that can make
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Speaker 3: you look better and more capable under some conditions and
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Speaker 3: not others.
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Speaker 2: No doubt about it.
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Speaker 3: I'm much better at seven thirty am than I am
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Speaker 3: at seven thirty pm. Luckily we're doing this early enough
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Speaker 3: for me to still have some brain cells left, but
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Speaker 3: you get the idea.
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Speaker 1: Very much so lagging skills. Lagging skills simply means that
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Speaker 1: things like frustration, tolerance, flexibility, and adaptability, problem solving, e
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Speaker 1: motion regulation have not yet been developed. So right now,
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Speaker 1: every parent of a child who is explosive, every parent
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Speaker 1: of a child who is rigid, every parent of a
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Speaker 1: child who has additional needs. Maybe they've got a diagnosis,
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Speaker 1: they're on the spectrum ADHD, whatever it could be. Every
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Speaker 1: parent right now is listening to us and saying, well,
10:11
Speaker 1: how do I give them the skills? I need them
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Speaker 1: to have the skills tonight, right now. Please. Obviously, skills
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Speaker 1: don't develop after listening to a brief podcast. It's for
10:21
Speaker 1: a time poor parent who really does want airsst right now.
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Speaker 1: But if we wanted to develop the skill of flexibility
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Speaker 1: and adaptability. Now you've got a couple of kids. I
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Speaker 1: have six kids. You know what it's like when a
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Speaker 1: child becomes intensely rigid, narrow minded, tunnel vision and what
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Speaker 1: they believe is the way that it is, and no
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Speaker 1: amount of logic will convince them. How do we work
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Speaker 1: with a child who is inflexible and teach them that
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Speaker 1: skill of psychological flexibility.
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Speaker 2: All right, this is going to take a minute. Okay.
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Speaker 3: I don't know if that is a skill that can
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Speaker 3: be taught through direct instruction, though I know many people try.
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Speaker 3: I think it is a skill that is taught more
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Speaker 3: through a process. And the process that we use to
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Speaker 3: enhance that skill is problem solving. Solving problems collaboratively. So
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Speaker 3: let me just rewind the tape a second. The kids
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Speaker 3: who we're thinking about right now don't look bad all
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Speaker 3: the time. They only look bad some of the time.
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Speaker 3: When do they look bad when expectations are being placed
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Speaker 3: upon them that they're having difficulty meeting. That could be
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Speaker 3: anything from difficulty turning off the xbox to come in
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Speaker 3: for dinner, to difficulty getting out of bed by seven
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Speaker 3: am to go to school, to difficulty eating what mom
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Speaker 3: or Dad has made for dinner. Those are all expectations.
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Speaker 3: If a kid is having difficulty meeting and expectation, we
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Speaker 3: have a problem that needs to be solved. We call
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Speaker 3: those unsolved problems. And as you know, but maybe some
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Speaker 3: of your listeners don't, don't, the collaborative and proactive solutions
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Speaker 3: model articulates a very systematic way of solving problems collaboratively
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Speaker 3: and proactively with kids. So the good news is that
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Speaker 3: once a problem is solved, it doesn't cause concerning behavior anymore.
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Speaker 2: That's good.
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Speaker 3: Both the problem is solved and the concerning behavior has subsided.
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Speaker 2: Both very good things.
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Speaker 3: But the process of solving problems with kids collaboratively and
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Speaker 3: outside the heat of the moment proactively also gives kids
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Speaker 3: practice at models for them and enhances the very skills
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Speaker 3: that they're lacking. So now to your question. In the
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Speaker 3: case of flexibility adaptability, let's say we've got a kid
12:51
Speaker 3: who's a very concrete, literal, black and white, rigid thinker.
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Speaker 3: They've already got the solution of that problem, but.
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Speaker 2: We don't want to hear about their solution yet.
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Speaker 3: We want to hear what's making it hard for them
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Speaker 3: to meet the expectation. First, it would sound like this,
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Speaker 3: I've noticed you've been having difficulty brushing your teeth before
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Speaker 3: going to bed at night.
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Speaker 2: What's up.
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Speaker 3: That's the beginning of the first of the three steps
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Speaker 3: that are involved in solving a problem collaboratively. Let's say
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Speaker 3: this very rigid kid then says, oh, no, no, no, I'm
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Speaker 3: in trouble brushing my teeth before I go to bed
13:27
Speaker 3: at night. I've got my way of doing it, and
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Speaker 3: that's my way of doing it. That's not any typical response, right.
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Speaker 3: The parent would then say, yes, but I'm interested in
13:37
Speaker 3: knowing what's hard for you about meeting that expectation. Now
13:43
Speaker 3: we're on a different subject. Now we're not on the
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Speaker 3: kid's solution. Now we've rewound the tape a little bit
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Speaker 3: back to what's making it hard for them. In the
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Speaker 3: second step, the adult is entering their concern into consideration
14:00
Speaker 3: why we think it's important that the expectation be met.
14:03
Speaker 3: In the third step, we're putting our heads together and
14:05
Speaker 3: collaborating on a solution, but one that addresses the concerns
14:10
Speaker 3: of both parties. So what happened in that process for
14:14
Speaker 3: that kid number one, they felt heard this is not
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Speaker 3: my solution versus your solution. It's let's hear your concerns.
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Speaker 3: Let's hear what's getting in your way. Then I'm going
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Speaker 3: to tell you my concerns. So we're listening to each other,
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Speaker 3: we're modeling, we're practicing, listening, empathizing, taking another person's perspective.
14:38
Speaker 3: And then when we get to that third step and
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Speaker 3: we discover that the kid's original solution and the adult's
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Speaker 3: original solution could not conceivably address the concerns of both parties,
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Speaker 3: and that we need a different solution. Well, the kid
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Speaker 3: has just gotten one rep in the skill of flexibility adaptability,
15:02
Speaker 3: also one rep on problem solving, one rep on frustration tolerance,
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Speaker 3: and if we did this proactively instead of the heat
15:10
Speaker 3: of the moment, probably some skills that are going to
15:13
Speaker 3: help them regulate their emotions down the road if we
15:15
Speaker 3: get them good enough at this. So, in answer to your question,
15:19
Speaker 3: I told you it was going to take a while.
15:21
Speaker 3: How do you teach skills when you're implementing collaborative and
15:24
Speaker 3: practice solutions? By solving problems collaboratively and proactively, just by
15:29
Speaker 3: engaging kids in that process, we model practice and enhance
15:35
Speaker 3: those skills. I should mention one other thing. It's not
15:39
Speaker 3: just the kid who's getting practice at those skills.
15:42
Speaker 1: There are two things that I want to pick up
15:43
Speaker 1: on here. One of them is a comment. I guess
15:45
Speaker 1: it's a little bit self referential. Your three elements where
15:49
Speaker 1: you sit down and say, hey, I've noticed this, there's
15:51
Speaker 1: some difficulty here. What's up in the model that I developed?
15:56
Speaker 1: I would call that explore We're nice, We're literally exploring
15:59
Speaker 1: the world. The next thing that you said is when
16:02
Speaker 1: they provide some resistance or when we're not really making
16:05
Speaker 1: any progress, you say, it's fine, but here's what we need.
16:09
Speaker 1: You talked about how we're outlining the expectation. I call
16:12
Speaker 1: that explain So we've got an exploration and an explanation.
16:16
Speaker 1: And then when you have that problem solving, that collaborative conversation.
16:20
Speaker 1: I call that in power. So I call that the
16:22
Speaker 1: three e's. It's essentially the same model you and I
16:24
Speaker 1: ross we're twins. We're teaching the same thing with the
16:26
Speaker 1: different words.
16:27
Speaker 2: That a much better hand than I do.
16:29
Speaker 1: But anyways, there but this concept is so foreign to
16:35
Speaker 1: so many parents who have been raised with the idea
16:38
Speaker 1: that if they're not doing it, And I've got books
16:42
Speaker 1: on my shelf from very well known, incredibly well educated
16:46
Speaker 1: parenting experts who essentially are saying, if the kids won't
16:51
Speaker 1: do as they're told, parent harder. You've just got a
16:55
Speaker 1: parent harder. You've got to push more, you've got to
16:57
Speaker 1: raise the stakes. That's more of an observation and a
17:00
Speaker 1: reflection on what you've shared that I just wanted to
17:01
Speaker 1: sort of, I guess for my happy family's audience to
17:04
Speaker 1: tie together the way that you're describing it in the
17:06
Speaker 1: way that I do, I think it makes it. It's
17:09
Speaker 1: wonderfully mutually reinforcing. The thing that I do want to
17:12
Speaker 1: pull out of there, though, is I'm listening really carefully
17:14
Speaker 1: of the language that you use, and I feel that
17:18
Speaker 1: you are very careful, explicitly careful about the language you're using.
17:23
Speaker 1: For example, you're talking about a child who's having difficulty
17:27
Speaker 1: or challenge, you're talking about lagging skills, you're talking about
17:33
Speaker 1: the collaborative, proactive way that we engage. Would you just
17:37
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the language that you're using
17:40
Speaker 1: and the specific words such as difficult behavior.
17:45
Speaker 3: I try not to be judgmental. I find that there's
17:47
Speaker 3: many ways of talking about kids with concerning behaviors that
17:50
Speaker 3: can be loaded. But the biggest reason I choose my
17:54
Speaker 3: words carefully is that because this is such a dramatic
17:58
Speaker 3: departure for so many people, it can be misunderstood quickly,
18:04
Speaker 3: often by people who are taking what they're doing already
18:06
Speaker 3: and saying, all right, this sounds good. How do I
18:09
Speaker 3: force what I'm hearing now into what I'm doing already?
18:13
Speaker 3: And I don't want my language to lend to confusion.
18:21
Speaker 3: I don't want to add to the confusion by being imprecise.
18:25
Speaker 3: This is hard enough of a transition for many caregivers
18:31
Speaker 3: without me confusing them with my own language. So yeah,
18:35
Speaker 3: I'm going to talk about difficult behavior.
18:38
Speaker 2: I'm not going to use.
18:39
Speaker 3: Terms that are more loaded than that, especially because since
18:44
Speaker 3: I don't think the kid is doing this to here,
18:48
Speaker 3: we go right, push our buttons, yank our chains, test limits,
18:56
Speaker 3: manipulate us, coerce us into capitulating to their wishes. I
19:01
Speaker 3: find those are very loaded terms, very judgmental that suggests
19:06
Speaker 3: that we actually know what's behind what's going on with
19:10
Speaker 3: the kid. None of that based in research. We're solid
19:17
Speaker 3: this is a kid who's lacking skills. I want to
19:19
Speaker 3: make sure that I am referring to this kid in
19:21
Speaker 3: the most humane, compassionate, enlatented, non judgmental way possible.
19:29
Speaker 1: I love the respect for the humanity of the child
19:33
Speaker 1: that is in your approach. Ross. When I was working
19:37
Speaker 1: through the Explosive Child some time ago, now, I came
19:40
Speaker 1: across a mathematical formula, and normally this is the kind
19:43
Speaker 1: of thing that would turn anybody off any any kind
19:45
Speaker 1: of a parenting book, cause hang on, I'm reading parenting.
19:47
Speaker 1: I'm not reading maths. This is not how I want
19:49
Speaker 1: to spend my Friday night. But it struck me as
19:52
Speaker 1: being such a profoundly important formula I'd love to unpack
19:56
Speaker 1: it with you for a couple of minutes. Just now,
19:58
Speaker 1: you describe the formula as such, inflexibility plus inflexibility equals
20:04
Speaker 1: melt down. Can you talk about this in the context
20:07
Speaker 1: of an explosive child, or in fact, in the context
20:09
Speaker 1: of just I think any relationship.
20:11
Speaker 3: Really, the kid is already inflexible by nature. That's inflexibility
20:18
Speaker 3: number one. If your stance toward the kid is equally inflexible,
20:24
Speaker 3: perhaps in an effort to show the kid whose boss,
20:29
Speaker 3: perhaps in an effort to teach the kid a lesson,
20:31
Speaker 3: they'll never forget all these things that we think we're
20:35
Speaker 3: supposed to be doing as parents. So that's inflexibility number two.
20:40
Speaker 3: If that's your equation, then it's not going to be pretty.
20:46
Speaker 2: Now.
20:47
Speaker 3: The addendum to that is that doesn't mean you're a pushover.
20:54
Speaker 3: A lot of people take inflexibility plus inflexibility equals melt
20:58
Speaker 3: down to me and Okay, so my kid's inflexible already,
21:01
Speaker 3: then I have to be perfectly flexible. Where do I
21:04
Speaker 3: have influence at that point? No one said that we
21:07
Speaker 3: are replacing your inflexibility with one hundred percent flexibility. It's
21:13
Speaker 3: just that the math equation still holds. If you pair
21:17
Speaker 3: two inflexible people with each other, it's not going to
21:20
Speaker 3: be pretty. That's where the problem solving process comes in.
21:24
Speaker 3: This is just not about being inflexible with somebody who's
21:27
Speaker 3: already inflexible. This is about proactively and collaboratively solving the
21:34
Speaker 3: problems that you are being inflexible about in the first place,
21:38
Speaker 3: so that there's really no inflexibility left in the equation.
21:42
Speaker 1: Let's talk about timing here, because so often parents will say, well,
21:46
Speaker 1: my child's being inflexible. I know that I'm supposed to
21:48
Speaker 1: be flexible here, which means that we need to have
21:49
Speaker 1: a collaborative and proactive conversation. But if we reflect on
21:54
Speaker 1: the high emotions equals on intelligence idea, how do you
21:58
Speaker 1: communicate with parents around the idea that we obviously need
22:00
Speaker 1: to find a solution really quickly because there's a problem
22:04
Speaker 1: right here, right now. But this isn't necessarily the time
22:07
Speaker 1: to sit down and try to work out a collabortive
22:09
Speaker 1: and proactive solution, because we're going to end up with
22:11
Speaker 1: a meltdown. And I guess the other challenge is so
22:14
Speaker 1: many parents will say, but I have the right to
22:16
Speaker 1: be inflexible because I'm thirty years older than this child,
22:19
Speaker 1: or forty years older than this child, and I know
22:21
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about. I know that I'm right. They
22:24
Speaker 1: need to listen to me.
22:25
Speaker 3: I have the right because I'm thirty years older to
22:27
Speaker 3: make a great big mess out of something that didn't
22:30
Speaker 3: have to be a great big mess in the first place.
22:32
Speaker 1: And yet so many parents will hold fastest to that
22:35
Speaker 1: right in the moment, We're so right.
22:38
Speaker 3: The goal of the CPS model is to get people
22:41
Speaker 3: out of the moment. Yeah, whatever expectation this kid is
22:45
Speaker 3: having difficulty meeting right now, I promise you it's not
22:48
Speaker 3: the first time. In fact, it's probably the fiftieth time.
22:53
Speaker 3: Why we are still dealing with it in the heat
22:55
Speaker 3: of the moment when it is entirely predictable, is probably
23:00
Speaker 3: because we haven't yet made a list of all of
23:03
Speaker 3: the expectations the kid is having difficulty meeting and prioritize
23:07
Speaker 3: that list so we know the unsolved problems. We're trying
23:09
Speaker 3: to solve right now, and we know the ones that
23:12
Speaker 3: we're trying to put on.
23:12
Speaker 2: Hold right now.
23:14
Speaker 3: The first edition of The Explosive Child was mostly about
23:18
Speaker 3: solving problems in the heat of the moment. Every addition
23:22
Speaker 3: since then has been about solving problems proactively, which simply
23:28
Speaker 3: means making your list of every single expectation your child
23:32
Speaker 3: is having difficulty meeting reliably, whether they can meet it
23:36
Speaker 3: sometimes and not others, it's still an unsolved problem, deciding
23:40
Speaker 3: which two or three you're going to start working on first,
23:45
Speaker 3: and starting to solve those problems proactively, not just collaboratively.
23:50
Speaker 3: In the CPS model as well as in other places,
23:52
Speaker 3: we would call that get out in front of it.
23:56
Speaker 3: If you don't get out in front of it, you're
23:58
Speaker 3: going to be behind the eight ball every single time
24:01
Speaker 3: and saying, well, what am I supposed to do? I've
24:03
Speaker 3: got time pressure, I'm in the heat of the moment.
24:05
Speaker 3: That is not a given. You make your list, you're
24:08
Speaker 3: not going to be in the heat of the moment anymore.
24:10
Speaker 3: As we frequently say to the parents we work with,
24:13
Speaker 3: I'm going to get you out of the heat of
24:14
Speaker 3: the moment, but you need your list first.
24:18
Speaker 1: At which point you then sit down with your child
24:20
Speaker 1: and you ask them what's up. You seem to be
24:23
Speaker 1: having difficulty to go back to the language, you seem
24:25
Speaker 1: to be having difficulty here, what's up? And then you
24:28
Speaker 1: work through that collaborative conversation where you explore their world,
24:31
Speaker 1: make sure that they understand what the expectations and the
24:33
Speaker 1: limits are, and then work on solutions together that are
24:36
Speaker 1: satisfactory for both parties to the extent that you can.
24:40
Speaker 1: You got it, Yeah, beautiful Ross. One more big question
24:47
Speaker 1: that I think every parent will want to hear an
24:50
Speaker 1: answer to. You have an entire chapter devoted to the
24:54
Speaker 1: truth about consequences. This is the favorite topic of mine.
24:58
Speaker 1: I love talking about it, but I love the way
25:00
Speaker 1: that you articulate the ideas in this chapter. Would you
25:04
Speaker 1: just help parents to get a sense of what the
25:07
Speaker 1: truth really is about consequences and how they impact on
25:12
Speaker 1: a child's ability to either be flexible and adaptible and
25:16
Speaker 1: to tolerate frustration well and all the things that we've
25:19
Speaker 1: talked about, the emotion regulation and so on. What's the
25:22
Speaker 1: truth about consequences?
25:24
Speaker 3: The truth about consequences is that they're overrated and we
25:28
Speaker 3: rely on them much too heavily. There's other aspects of
25:33
Speaker 3: parenting that are far more important than consequences. But the
25:37
Speaker 3: bottom line is, consequences are behavior modification strategies. What you're
25:43
Speaker 3: consequencing our behaviors you don't like, and you're rewarding the
25:47
Speaker 3: behaviors you do like, and you're punishing the behaviors you
25:50
Speaker 3: don't like. Just one problem with that. There's a problem
25:54
Speaker 3: that's causing that behavior. There's an expectation your child is
25:58
Speaker 3: having difficulty meeting. It's causing that behavior. Concerning behaviors don't
26:02
Speaker 3: occur out of the blue. They occur when a kid
26:05
Speaker 3: is having difficulty meeting a particular expectation. And the truth
26:08
Speaker 3: about consequences is that they do not solve any problems.
26:14
Speaker 3: And I'm quite convinced that they don't teach the skills
26:18
Speaker 3: that these kids are found to be lacking. And so
26:23
Speaker 3: that's why I'm saying that they're overrated. Yes, rewarding, rewarding,
26:29
Speaker 3: and punishing. Behavior modification, what is known as parent management training,
26:34
Speaker 3: is an evidence based approach. It's evidence based for modifying behavior.
26:39
Speaker 3: That's what consequences are good at. And I was trained
26:42
Speaker 3: in consequences early in my career. That's how I was trained,
26:45
Speaker 3: but they don't solve the problems that are causing that behavior.
26:48
Speaker 3: So evidence based though they might be, here's what I say.
26:53
Speaker 3: We can no longer be satisfied with merely improving a
26:57
Speaker 3: kid's behavior if the problems that are causing that behavior
27:00
Speaker 3: remain unsolved, It's not enough. And the best news is this,
27:08
Speaker 3: if we solve the problem that's causing the behavior collaboratively
27:12
Speaker 3: and proactively, not only is the problem solved, the behaviors
27:17
Speaker 3: that were being caused by that problem subside. We've all
27:21
Speaker 3: heard the cliche behavior is communication. All concerning behavior communicates
27:27
Speaker 3: is that there's an expectation that kid is having difficulty meeting.
27:30
Speaker 3: Once that problem is solved, the need for concerning behavior
27:34
Speaker 3: is gone and the need for consequencing the behavior is gone.
27:40
Speaker 1: I love the way you articulate that. I've come under
27:42
Speaker 1: fire from some people who have very strong opinions about
27:46
Speaker 1: how we should be dealing with children and the consequences
27:49
Speaker 1: that they need to face for saying quite explicitly, I
27:53
Speaker 1: have it a personal goal, and it's something that I
27:56
Speaker 1: encourage the parents that I work with to have as
27:58
Speaker 1: a goal. To never get my children in trouble. My
28:02
Speaker 1: goal is to not get them in trouble. I don't
28:04
Speaker 1: want to be punishing them. I don't want to be
28:05
Speaker 1: bribing them. I don't want to be sticking them in
28:07
Speaker 1: their room. I don't want to be threatening them. My
28:10
Speaker 1: goal is to never get them in trouble. And some
28:12
Speaker 1: people will misinterpret that as me becoming permissive. Lais a
28:17
Speaker 1: fair letting the children have no rules to whatever they want.
28:20
Speaker 1: But to the contrary, consistent with what you've described, when
28:24
Speaker 1: I see that we've got a challenge or a problem
28:26
Speaker 1: or a difficulty in our home, that becomes now an
28:29
Speaker 1: opportunity for connection. It becomes an opportunity for communication, It
28:33
Speaker 1: becomes an opportunity for flexibility and adaptability and development of
28:38
Speaker 1: frustration tolerance and emotion regulation and ultimately problem solving. And
28:42
Speaker 1: if we solve those problems effectively, we never need to
28:45
Speaker 1: get anyone in trouble in our home ever. And it
28:48
Speaker 1: feels amazing to not be getting the kids in trouble.
28:52
Speaker 1: I mean, it's the ultimate for me, it's the ultimate goal.
28:56
Speaker 1: Don't get the kids in trouble, just work out solutions
28:58
Speaker 1: when problems are right.
29:00
Speaker 3: Yes, this paradigm that if you're not consequencing, you must be.
29:05
Speaker 3: Being passive and permissive is absolute total bs. You have
29:13
Speaker 3: lots of options besides consequencing. They don't make you passive,
29:17
Speaker 3: they don't make you permissive. In my opinion, punishing a kid,
29:22
Speaker 3: at least on the surface of it, is a heck
29:24
Speaker 3: of a lot easier than solving a problem with a kid.
29:28
Speaker 3: It's harder over the long haul because you're solving nothing
29:31
Speaker 3: by consequencing the kid. But it's not hard to say
29:34
Speaker 3: to a kid, you just lost TV for a week.
29:37
Speaker 3: Look how easy that was.
29:39
Speaker 2: Right.
29:40
Speaker 3: Sitting down with a kid to solve a problem much
29:42
Speaker 3: more difficult. But only one of those two things is
29:44
Speaker 3: actually going to solve the problem.
29:47
Speaker 1: Russ. Your book is The Explosive Child Revised and Updated
29:52
Speaker 1: and you approach for understanding and pairing easily frustrated, chronically
29:56
Speaker 1: inflexible children. People can get that online wherever they want
29:59
Speaker 1: you provide. I have loads of resources for parents who
30:02
Speaker 1: have rigid and inflexible children, explosive children, children who don't
30:06
Speaker 1: regulate particularly well, and I think that your resources are
30:09
Speaker 1: absolutely worth shouting from the rooftops If people want to
30:12
Speaker 1: learn more about what you do and how your work
30:15
Speaker 1: can help their family, where should they be visiting. Where
30:18
Speaker 1: would you send them?
30:20
Speaker 3: Lives indebalance dot org l Ives in the Balance dot org.
30:27
Speaker 3: Lives in the Balance is the nonprofit that I've founded
30:29
Speaker 3: in two thousand and nine, and the first goal of
30:33
Speaker 3: me founding Lives in the Balance was to provide all
30:37
Speaker 3: kinds of free resources to people who wanted to learn
30:39
Speaker 3: more about this model without them necessarily having to buy
30:43
Speaker 3: a book. So the website is better than it's ever been,
30:47
Speaker 3: more resources than there have ever been. We're constantly adding
30:51
Speaker 3: to it. It's their waiting for people and livesndebalance dot
30:54
Speaker 3: oorg works just as well on the Internet in Australia
30:58
Speaker 3: as it does here in the United States.
31:01
Speaker 1: Lives Inthebalance dot org. We will link to that in
31:03
Speaker 1: the show notes. Also a quick plug. It's very very
31:05
Speaker 1: early days, but we were chatting before I press the
31:08
Speaker 1: record button. You're heading to Australia. I'm sure people will
31:10
Speaker 1: be excited to hear that limited information at the moment,
31:13
Speaker 1: but if people follow you on Facebook or check your website,
31:15
Speaker 1: I'm sure that come. Did you say it was September?
31:18
Speaker 3: September, I'll be in Australia for three weeks and like
31:20
Speaker 3: eight or ten different cities.
31:22
Speaker 1: Wonderful. Well, I'm looking forward to catching up with you
31:24
Speaker 1: in person when you when you show up here on
31:26
Speaker 1: our shores. Thanks so much for joining me on the podcast.
31:28
Speaker 2: Rous thanks for having me on.
31:29
Speaker 1: The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin Rowland from
31:32
Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer, and for
31:34
Speaker 1: more information about what we've talked about today, check the
31:36
Speaker 1: show notes or lives in theebalance dot org and as always,
31:40
Speaker 1: a whole lot of great info to help make your
31:42
Speaker 1: family happier is also available at happy families dot com
31:45
Speaker 1: dot au