Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Jim Allenby about his choice of The Tomb of the Cybermen (4/4)

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Talks to Jim Allenby about his choice of The Tomb of the Cybermen (4/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:23
  None. A hamster with a Blump Pen knife
• 0:35
  for doing quicker, quicker, quicker.
• 0:40
  Welcome back to a hamster with a Blump Pen Knife.
• 0:42
  The Doctor Who Commentary Podcast Mr. Jim Allenby.
• 0:47
  Hello. Hello Joe, How are you doing?
• 0:51
  It's been a while, you know, since we recorded episode three
• 0:54
  of Two of the Sidemen, Has it not?
• 0:56
  It has been a while, yes. It's been a while.
• 0:58
  I've in that time, I've got a different microphone.
• 1:01
  Oh really? I've moved house three times.
• 1:03
  You know you're located to another country.
• 1:07
  Yeah, it's been it's been a it's been a it's been a stretch.
• 1:10
  Due to illnesses and various other complications in my life,
• 1:15
  there has been a slight delay. But here we are for episode four
• 1:19
  of two of the sidemen. And you know, just to show that
• 1:23
  you in fact do pay attention when you watch Doctor Who's
• 1:26
  stories. I haven't done this to you
• 1:28
  before, so I know it's a bit mean.
• 1:30
  Perhaps you'd like to catch up the listeners with what has
• 1:33
  occurred into with the time meant to date.
• 1:37
  OK, so we have a set of explorers who have.
• 1:45
  Opened up the tomb and they have awoken the Cybermen.
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  We've got a starting set piece. Yeah, we've got a couple of
• 1:56
  villains there. We have we.
• 2:01
  And we've we've done a bit of to in and froing from going down
• 2:05
  into the tomb and coming out of the tomb and I believe we're at
• 2:09
  a a point where. Somebody has just been shot, I
• 2:15
  believe. Oh, that wonderfully
• 2:18
  melodramatic cliffhanger. Yeah, that's about it, I think.
• 2:27
  I'm not sure. I can't remember who's still
• 2:28
  alive in the story, and I've only watched this yesterday.
• 2:32
  Have we lost Cyril Shaps? Cyril Shaps yet?
• 2:35
  Is he still alive? I is he.
• 2:39
  I rewatched it myself yesterday and I can't remember, so shots
• 2:42
  might be dead by now. Captain Hopper is still with us
• 2:44
  because he makes it out alive. Yeah, yeah.
• 2:47
  Captain Hopper is. Kaftan's still there, isn't she?
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  Kaftan is still here, but she's going to be a grisly end in
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  episode 4. A lot of people die horribly in
• 2:57
  episode 4, and I want to talk to you as well about Patrick Trout
• 3:01
  and stop. So now we did talk about how he
• 3:03
  can be a bit morally muddy at times.
• 3:07
  His solution to this story? I'm going to set a deadly trap.
• 3:12
  So anyone that dares come in and dies instantly.
• 3:15
  Well, I mean, we need to cover that, but, well, I don't know if
• 3:19
  you're ready to jump in. I certainly AM.
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  I am. I've got my DVD queued up, so
• 3:24
  count as in. OK, in 54321, boom, off we go.
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  OK, I've I've got a question for you immediately.
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  This will come as zero surprise to you and that is I've been
• 3:40
  watching a lot of new Who lately, very slick Polish
• 3:45
  productions and then I went back and watched Tomb and Sidemen
• 3:49
  episode 4 yesterday. Some would say that's a slightly
• 3:52
  less slick and polished production at the time.
• 3:59
  Was this an expensive piece of work, do you imagine?
• 4:05
  Yes, I think so. Oh, I think so too.
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  I think for a piece of 1960s TV, looking at it through those
• 4:17
  eyes, I think it does look pretty slick, especially with
• 4:24
  the filmed. Inserts you know with the
• 4:27
  Cybermen, I I yeah, I think at the time, yes, when, but I think
• 4:35
  it's very much. I think a lot of the stories
• 4:39
  look pretty good around it as well.
• 4:41
  Well, what we can see of them, I expect evil of the dialects
• 4:46
  probably looks pretty good from from what we've seen of that, I
• 4:50
  think it was. Yeah, obviously you could.
• 4:52
  You know, it's on a budget, you can see that.
• 4:55
  But but what they've got to work with, It's pretty, yeah, I think
• 5:01
  it's pretty slick. There's a lot of quotes from
• 5:03
  people involved in this series. I know Derek Martinez saying we
• 5:06
  knew we were doing something special with even the Daleks.
• 5:09
  We knew this was something. Morris Barry says That about
• 5:12
  this story. I knew this was going to be
• 5:14
  quite iconic in terms of the Simon and in stories like Theory
• 5:17
  from the Deep, where Hugh Hugh David's like, you know, I'm
• 5:21
  going to scare the bikers off, you know, scare the willies out
• 5:24
  the little kiddos. Yeah, I think they did.
• 5:27
  But it was just such so jarring going from Yes, because it
• 5:30
  starts with someone off camera going Watch out Doctor, they
• 5:37
  don't make them like this anymore, do they?
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  No, they don't. I mean, you know, just, I mean,
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  look at this now. It just looks, you know, it
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  looks amazing. And climbing back into the
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  tombs, Is that just being reversed?
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  It has been reversed, yeah, but it still works.
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  There's something really, though, everyone's squinting
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  away at those tiny little TV's in the 60s going, well, what am
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  I saying, you know? Yeah, yeah.
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  And I think, yeah, I think if you, you could probably jump
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  around a lot of. The history of Doctor Who and
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  you could jump from this to the Davison episode and then jump up
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  to an Eccleston episode and back to Hartnell episode.
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  You're always going to, you're always going to find a jar in
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  it, you know, because this you know you were spared from space
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  And that's, you know, a million times looks better than this,
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  but it's of its time, you know. But going back to what you said
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  earlier, every time this jumps to film work, it's suddenly very
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  slick. The action sequence are very
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  polished, the camera work is better.
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  I was really aware that that's sort of like a higher level of
• 6:47
  production than it was a studio, and I think the studio works
• 6:50
  good. Yeah.
• 6:51
  Oh yeah, absolutely. But when it's enticing to think,
• 6:54
  isn't it all of it being shot on film?
• 6:56
  You know, you see, you see some of those series as well that
• 6:59
  were filmed at the time like The Avengers.
• 7:02
  And there's Diana Riggs season, the black and white one.
• 7:06
  It's gorgeous. It just, you know, I mean don't
• 7:09
  get me wrong. I wouldn't exchange it for any
• 7:11
  for anything because it is what it is.
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  But to think of you know, how it would have looked on film and
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  and I think we touched on it in the last one of the last
• 7:22
  episodes that we did of how, how sometimes I miss that.
• 7:29
  That kind of film effect that it had before it was vid fired.
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  Not that obviously. Filming techniques are different
• 7:37
  on videotape to what they are on on on film.
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  However, it didn't seem as jarring between film shots and
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  studio shots. I tend to forget those vid fires
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  ever existed. Now you know.
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  Now we've jumped to the Blu rays.
• 7:52
  Yeah, they don't get included on any of them, do they?
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  No, they don't. It's that sort of like that
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  embarrassing corner of releases. Oh yeah, over there in the in
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  the shadows. Yeah, Question for you then.
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  You know, because I. Another thing that was very
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  apparent as I was sitting there watching this episode was this
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  is how I camp this story, right. I know it's going for scares at
• 8:18
  time, but you've got two incredibly over the top
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  villains, including Kaftan, and you've got a lot of very
• 8:26
  overdone accents in there as well, sort of very colourful
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  characters amongst the archaeologists.
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  And it's all heightened, It's all up here at 11, you know,
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  whereas I'm thinking about the Abominable Snowmen where there's
• 8:38
  some, it's it's a little more quiet and a bit more thoughtful.
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  I think of Fury from the Deep, where there's a lot of character
• 8:46
  drama in there and it's more optimistic.
• 8:49
  This is like this is almost like the Horns of Naimon of this
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  season. Everything's fucking operatic,
• 8:54
  you know? It is, and it kind of gives that
• 8:57
  feel of of it being like a kind of a a.
• 9:01
  The 1960s kind of sci-fi film, really, you know, with a lot of,
• 9:09
  a lot of, like I say, camp it is.
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  It does feel more like this is made for kids, maybe without
• 9:17
  kind of knocking it back a little bit.
• 9:19
  Whereas something like, say, the Web of Fear Jesus, That's too
• 9:23
  scary for me to watch now. It's it's that feels more, you
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  know, fury from the deep. It's got very.
• 9:31
  Very serious, real people in it. There's there's there's not a
• 9:35
  lot to laugh at in In Fury From the Deep and the Web of Fear.
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  But this year it's very, it is very camp.
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  And I don't know if that was done for a purpose, whether it
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  was whether when they were writing it they were thinking,
• 9:52
  thinking of the kids. I don't know.
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  I think this is like like we talked about earlier, I think
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  this is absolutely aping. Those sort of bee movies, Hammer
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  movies and all of them. All of them are very heightened
• 10:05
  and a bit silly and over the top.
• 10:08
  You know the dangers are hyper real, but it doesn't mean within
• 10:14
  that this isn't incredibly enjoyable to.
• 10:17
  No, and we probably touched on it in the in the last few
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  episodes, but you know, I never understood the.
• 10:26
  The people who believed this was a classic and then said it
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  wasn't a classic when it was returned that it would be that
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  it'd been you know that that how can I put it, it was it was
• 10:37
  meant to be the lost classic and then it came back and people
• 10:41
  says, well actually no it's not actually that good but.
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  Again I was I I came from a time, came from a time I I I
• 10:51
  grew up in a in a time of being a fan when I didn't realise it
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  was missing. So you know, this was all I
• 10:57
  ever, ever had of it, you know. So I don't know.
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  I I've never experienced it as being a lost, a lost classic
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  before. Oh, I see.
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  I do remember people talking about it in sort of hush tones,
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  but then I remember it coming back and people saying, yeah,
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  it's pretty amazing. I I sort of missed all of that
• 11:15
  reappraisal. Actually, this is the fans Jim
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  fans know. Yeah, I'll say one thing.
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  There's a blessed relief about this story that all those ones I
• 11:24
  just mentioned, Abominable Snowman Fury from the Deep Web
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  of Fear. It's four episodes long, which
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  means it moves along at a lick rather than six episodes because
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  you imagine two more episodes of them going up and down those
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  tombs. Yeah, it doesn't.
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  It doesn't work Tedious. There's actually a question and
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  I'm not sure. Who asked it?
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  Let me just have a little look, do you know, embarrassing,
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  right? You know, you know, you said we
• 11:47
  were quite not quite sure which questions we've answered or not
• 11:50
  is. If we answer them, but
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  completely different to how we answered them before, they'll
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  just realise we're making it all up as we go along.
• 11:57
  Well, this is the thing. Oh, who was it who asked the
• 12:00
  question about Not going to be able to find this?
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  I apologise for not being able to find the person who asked the
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  question, but the question was something along the lines of
• 12:15
  which which story in season five would have benefited from being
• 12:20
  two episodes shorter. So that's a good question.
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  It sounds like a Fraser one, you know.
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  There's a few Fraser ones on there, yeah.
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  What do you think? Probably the wheel in space.
• 12:38
  Oh, that's an interesting answer.
• 12:40
  I always forget that that story is in Season 5 because it's got
• 12:44
  Zoe in it, you know, and I just, you know, associated with this
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  season six, as you do, and probably the wheel in space.
• 12:53
  If not wheel in space, I'd probably say the web of fear as
• 12:58
  yes, because there is a lot of dashing around in the dark and
• 13:02
  it's expertly done. But after a sort of, you know,
• 13:05
  the 900th scene of Victoria going along that tunnel going
• 13:09
  Jimmy or actually maybe even the Ice Warriors, they they seem to
• 13:14
  have four episodes where they try and decide whether they're
• 13:17
  going to, yeah, turn on the engines or not.
• 13:20
  That's, you know, that goes on for quite a bit.
• 13:22
  Oh. Before the Ice Warriors was
• 13:23
  released on VHSA, friend of mine got hold of the the, the
• 13:27
  episodes that remained and I I remember watching those episodes
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  and I didn't miss anything with with being with the two episodes
• 13:37
  missing out stuff, isn't it in those?
• 13:39
  Two. Yeah, yeah, it's.
• 13:41
  It kind of helped, really. Same with the reign of terror.
• 13:45
  Can I point out that that side man made made her.
• 13:49
  She made her open up the Hatch, and then when his back was
• 13:52
  turned, she'd put it back down again?
• 13:54
  I mean, we're in fucking panto territory.
• 13:56
  As she goes to put Paul the lever, she's laughing as well.
• 14:01
  Shirley Cookson's having a great time in this way.
• 14:04
  Well, not anymore. She's just been shot dead.
• 14:07
  I don't have a gun with a practical effect.
• 14:11
  It's some it's somehow more horrific, isn't it?
• 14:14
  I think another thing I noticed in this story as well is Morris
• 14:22
  Barry's direction in crowd scenes, because I find you guys
• 14:27
  sort of skip forward to season 19.
• 14:29
  Oh, hang on a second. He's.
• 14:31
  Just gone off camera to pick up the dummy.
• 14:33
  Oh, he's very limp all of a sudden, isn't he?
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  That cyber controller. And his his head comes off as
• 14:38
  well, although I do like the idea that he's thrown.
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  And then he just gets straight away.
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  He's a hard bitch, that cyber controller, you know.
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  Oh, this is fabulous. Don't you shoot him right in the
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  face. It's all action now, Jim.
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  That's it. That smoke belching out of his
• 14:58
  face. That's film again.
• 15:01
  You can see that look. It looks.
• 15:03
  So good, although I do wish they would move a little bit faster.
• 15:07
  I mean, I know I like the slow, silent Cybermen, but, you know,
• 15:11
  sometimes you do need a little bit of urgency with them, don't
• 15:14
  you? You know, some, you know, the
• 15:16
  new series, sometimes they go down that angle of, you know,
• 15:20
  giving you sympathy for the villain.
• 15:22
  Yeah, when the Cyberman came up that hole and went, the energy
• 15:26
  levels are low. I was like, oh.
• 15:32
  But that's like the Dalek in the in the the first Dalek story,
• 15:35
  isn't it? Please turn back the power on
• 15:38
  and and it just and and and he refuses And it's ice stop just
• 15:42
  goes up in the air. Yes, it's ice all sticking up in
• 15:49
  it. Erect.
• 15:50
  Very funny. It's greater in the minute where
• 15:54
  Jamie goes. What you doing?
• 15:55
  Put him in that revitalizer, Doctor says.
• 15:57
  Where would you want him out here or in there.
• 15:59
  I'll make sure he stays in there.
• 16:03
  We do need to get on to the phony subject of Toadman,
• 16:06
  though, and he's inevitable, and I'm going to say inevitable with
• 16:11
  particular racism demise. Yeah, it's it's not right, is
• 16:19
  it? It's it's of its time.
• 16:22
  Yeah, I was going to say that. Unfortunately, but just saying,
• 16:27
  it's of its time. Excuse that, it's of its time.
• 16:32
  It's a tough one, isn't it? Because it doesn't excuse it?
• 16:40
  No, because I I believe that. I don't know.
• 16:45
  I think you know. If you put yourself in in the
• 16:47
  position, you know us now and what we know.
• 16:53
  And you know, we live in a hopefully more enlightened
• 16:57
  world. We we would write it
• 17:01
  differently. But back then, did they care
• 17:06
  about that? Were they just there just to put
• 17:08
  out a show as quickly as possible?
• 17:10
  You know, this is more thoughtless than it is racist.
• 17:14
  I mean, it is. And do you know what?
• 17:16
  I actually I don't find his death a problem because I think
• 17:21
  it's quite moving and all the characters react as if it means
• 17:25
  something. In fact, his death is given a
• 17:27
  bit more thought than anybody else's in this story.
• 17:31
  Most people just die and they're like, oh, was he here?
• 17:33
  Oh well, I'm sorry we put him in the cupboard.
• 17:35
  That person's been. What I don't like is how he's
• 17:38
  portrayed it as this sort of mute, thick, brutish thug.
• 17:43
  Yeah, yeah, he's, I mean, how much, I mean, how better would
• 17:47
  it have been if he'd if he'd have, you know, obviously saves,
• 17:51
  saves them really. But how much would it have been
• 17:53
  better if it had survived? You know, if he did, If he'd
• 17:57
  have. If they developed him over the
• 17:59
  story and given him more to do and you know, and we could have
• 18:04
  learnt, you know, that there was a back story between him and
• 18:08
  Kaftan and yeah, it's just. Yeah, it's not like I've, I
• 18:13
  would hear people saying, Oh well, they just, they didn't
• 18:15
  think about characters in those ways back then.
• 18:18
  That's not true because Faria in The Enemy of the World has a
• 18:21
  brilliant back story. Yeah, she she's a black
• 18:24
  character that is characterized really well given a strong
• 18:28
  actress comes in and plays her. Her death is really moving when
• 18:32
  it comes, so they can do it. They can do it, yeah.
• 18:35
  I just don't think that there was enough people who were
• 18:39
  bothered about doing it. Back then, I think that's.
• 18:43
  I think that's the problem. Do you know there's a, there's a
• 18:45
  Big Finish sequel to this, you know, years down the line of
• 18:49
  Peter Davis and the story I can't remember set on Captain
• 18:51
  Hoppers ship as they're leaving telos and it's every bit as good
• 18:54
  as I'm making it sound there. But imagine you there is a story
• 18:59
  there in if Toberman gets away, he's been half cybernized.
• 19:01
  What do you do with that person? Yeah, where does he fit into
• 19:05
  society? What do they do with that
• 19:07
  technology? Like, that's a really
• 19:08
  interesting idea, but that on those levels they're just not
• 19:11
  thinking. No, no they don't.
• 19:14
  They don't think at all and. The worst thing is that they
• 19:19
  they they bring the the actor back don't they And he's, I
• 19:23
  think he's in terribly Autons is he and he's the the strong man
• 19:26
  at the circus and he's the mute again.
• 19:29
  Yeah, exactly. The trouble is because we just
• 19:32
  had Kemel last week and he was a mute in that, wasn't he?
• 19:35
  Yeah, my God, hot as hell, Jim Jesus.
• 19:39
  Oh, when they animated him and evil other dialects, they got
• 19:41
  him just right, you know? That was that.
• 19:45
  That was another moving death as well.
• 19:47
  And when Camel dies, it's like you he didn't need to die, you
• 19:53
  know? Did you hear Victoria being
• 19:57
  extremely sarky just then when she went?
• 19:59
  Oh, Captain Hopper. It's so, so good to know that we
• 20:02
  can rely on your superior strength should we need it.
• 20:06
  What a cow bag. We've got some good bands to go
• 20:09
  in. The parent I think.
• 20:10
  She's, she's. And my eyes have been open to
• 20:14
  Victoria through watching this because I don't particularly
• 20:19
  like, oh, here we go. That's a horrible day if he gets
• 20:24
  there, yeah. If, you know, we're just like
• 20:26
  that bit where the Doctor's like.
• 20:28
  Yes, I see it now. The vision of Kleek.
• 20:36
  Well, Jim, now I know you're mad.
• 20:41
  Yeah, Victoria, Victoria, I just, I've, I've never been keen
• 20:45
  on her. But watching this story, you
• 20:49
  kind of, it's probably the strongest, her strongest story,
• 20:53
  I would say. Because she's, you know?
• 20:57
  She's got this agency. She's, you know, you can tell
• 21:02
  she's scared and she's terrified.
• 21:03
  She doesn't know, You know, she's been thrust into this life
• 21:07
  with the Doctor and Jamie, but she's making the most of it of,
• 21:12
  you know, how, how she, you know how she reacts to it.
• 21:17
  Yeah. She just just sometimes develops
• 21:20
  into screaming all the time, unfortunately.
• 21:23
  That short there. Of that side man writhing about
• 21:27
  as his guts come phoning up out of his innings.
• 21:31
  That's really horrible. It is.
• 21:35
  It is. And you can hear the side man
• 21:37
  going, yeah. Like, sort of breathing.
• 21:41
  It's. I was just like that's That is
• 21:43
  almost like inappropriately nasty in this crazy story.
• 21:48
  Well, I I was always intrigued as to what it would have, what
• 21:51
  it looked like on the 10th planet when the Cybermen die,
• 21:55
  because you see the kind of the the kind of crushed bombs.
• 22:00
  But of course, episode 4 doesn't exist, so we don't know what
• 22:03
  that actually looked like. But yeah, Doctor Who has a way
• 22:07
  of doing some horrific, horrific deaths.
• 22:09
  And I've had a lot of. Say that episode one and two of
• 22:13
  this story are really good because there's lots of suspense
• 22:17
  and there's lots of mystery and then it gets to the bit with the
• 22:20
  tombs and that's that's all sort of all spectacle.
• 22:23
  And then afterwards it's just a run around.
• 22:25
  And I don't disagree that it's a run around in episode three and
• 22:28
  four, but there's loads of great set pieces.
• 22:31
  Yeah, absolutely, absolutely there is.
• 22:34
  And and it's not over yet either, you know, You think that
• 22:38
  they've all gone back into the tombs and that's it now.
• 22:41
  But now he's got the controller still alive.
• 22:47
  Oh, he gets a fantastically melodramatic close up in a
• 22:50
  minute and he's got his arms out wide like this.
• 22:54
  I'm going to get you all. Listen to him, all right?
• 22:58
  I'm going to make sure that nobody ever records another
• 23:01
  commentary for two of the side men, all right?
• 23:03
  And should they dare to do it, I'm going to electrify the
• 23:05
  microphone, the mouse, and the entire computer and give him a
• 23:09
  fatal shock. Is it OK for me to do that?
• 23:13
  It is absolutely fine for you to do that, Yes, OK.
• 23:17
  So you agree with the doctor scheme here then to murder
• 23:20
  people that dare to do exactly what he's just done?
• 23:25
  I mean it's. Off in it.
• 23:28
  He's. He's dark, isn't he?
• 23:29
  He is. He's dark.
• 23:31
  And again, I think we, we touched on it last time that,
• 23:36
  you know, about how he's quite happy to sort of sit back and
• 23:41
  watch these things happen and you know, is this a part of
• 23:47
  human history? You know, can he.
• 23:50
  He can't really interfere in it, you know.
• 23:53
  I think it's a good thing we didn't have too many historical
• 23:55
  stories of Trout. And you know, because he'd
• 23:56
  gotten the other way from Hartnell.
• 23:57
  He'd been like, right, Come on, yeah, getting fucked.
• 24:02
  Little anarchist that he is, yeah, he's fantastic, isn't he?
• 24:08
  I don't know. I just remember thinking I can't
• 24:09
  think of another story where the Doctor has set a lethal booby
• 24:12
  trap in order to stop this from ever happening again.
• 24:17
  Oh, mind you, usually I just blow it up, didn't they?
• 24:19
  Yeah, yeah. And I just noticed the shot of
• 24:22
  the cyber map there as well, kind of wiggling away.
• 24:26
  And I don't know if that was a little hint as to say, well,
• 24:30
  they will be back, you know? I think that's an old hammer
• 24:33
  technique though, isn't it? You know one thing survive or
• 24:35
  the ham just moves. You know, was it a good idea
• 24:42
  bringing him back to be the cyber controller in attack of
• 24:46
  the Cybermen? Put him on a crash diet before
• 24:50
  he got into the suit. It'd be like asking me to be the
• 24:53
  cyber controller, you know? I've had a few pies in my time.
• 24:59
  You see that fabulous shot there where they're both holding the
• 25:02
  doors? That was on film as well, wasn't
• 25:03
  it? Yeah, it's enticing.
• 25:05
  I just want this whole fucking thing to be on film and they go
• 25:10
  wrong. I think they liked it
• 25:11
  brilliantly. I think the sets are great.
• 25:12
  You know, like it's as good as it can be on video.
• 25:15
  But yeah, yeah, oh. My It's a shame, isn't it?
• 25:20
  Oh, we did. Like the doctor's reaction here,
• 25:21
  he said, I'm sorry I had to end. And he just goes, I know, I
• 25:24
  know. If it was Pert, we would be
• 25:27
  like, don't go, don't go home talking about your heroic deeds.
• 25:32
  You know, terrible platitudes, and there's only how many of
• 25:37
  them have survived. If you take, there's a Professor
• 25:41
  Hopper and that's it, isn't it? Apart from those 3, yeah.
• 25:47
  But one of those early Tom Baker stories, when you murder
• 25:49
  everybody, you know, oh, this is as well, if you're going to
• 25:54
  melodramatic story, we're going to have a swing round onto the
• 25:57
  corpse and then a massive Cyberman symbol on the wall.
• 26:03
  And what about, you know, I mean, what an insult.
• 26:06
  They don't even bother to Barry Tober, man, Or, you know, take
• 26:10
  him back. I mean, you don't need to
• 26:15
  electrify the fucking door, right?
• 26:17
  The fact that there's a corpse outside the building, I'd say
• 26:23
  that's a do not enter, you know, I was going to go to a party,
• 26:30
  you know, and I turned up and there was a dead man outside.
• 26:34
  You're all right. OK, well, like, look, before we
• 26:38
  go into our reasons as to why this is fabulous, and I do think
• 26:42
  this is fabulous, I want to ask you what makes this, this is an
• 26:48
  iconic story. It's one that people talk about
• 26:52
  a lot. What makes an iconic Doctor Who
• 26:55
  story and what makes this an iconic Doctor Who story?
• 26:59
  I think part of it is possibly because it was lost.
• 27:07
  I think that adds to it. I mean it's got the Cybermen in
• 27:13
  it for a start. So you know it's it's it's going
• 27:16
  to be, it's got that going for it to start with.
• 27:21
  But I think it's got a lot of memorable set pieces.
• 27:29
  It's not. I think it's, I think because
• 27:34
  it's short as well it it doesn't, it's not dragged out,
• 27:40
  although you know, obviously it is a little bit maybe, maybe
• 27:43
  could have done with having an episode shaved off.
• 27:46
  But it's yeah, I think it's very, I think it's very there's
• 27:54
  a lot, there's a lot of incidents in it.
• 27:57
  It's memorable. It's got memorable villains in
• 27:59
  it. It's got very, very clear cut
• 28:03
  characters, you know you don't, you don't forget about them.
• 28:09
  They don't all kind of merge into one.
• 28:11
  You can remember each of them. And I think it just it's got
• 28:17
  really great set design as well. So I think, I think all of those
• 28:21
  things kind of add up to make it iconic.
• 28:25
  I'll add two more things then, because I I think it might be
• 28:29
  simpler than all of those things.
• 28:30
  You know, I think one is the title, The Tomb of the Cybermen,
• 28:35
  which is enticing. It's such an enticing idea and
• 28:41
  and the fact that that is a very simple but very Hollywood idea.
• 28:45
  It's a bit like the Dalek Invasion of Earth, you know,
• 28:49
  it's an idea that just sort of it comes just up.
• 28:52
  That story, straight away, it's telling you what it is, isn't
• 28:55
  it? I think it's it's it, you know
• 28:57
  it's it says it on the tin what you what you're about to put on.
• 29:03
  And maybe that's where people are disappointed in the, you
• 29:05
  know, like that idea is so exciting that perhaps the story
• 29:10
  could never live up to. What?
• 29:13
  What goes on in your head when you hear something like Tomb of
• 29:16
  Sideman Dialect, Invasion of Planet of the Daleks, You know,
• 29:19
  I think so. I mean you, you're always going
• 29:21
  to have an idea in your head of what something looks like that's
• 29:25
  missing, you know, you, you know, Daleks, master plan, you
• 29:30
  know, I think about what that could look like.
• 29:33
  Would it be a disappointment for it, you know, if it ever
• 29:36
  returned the whole thing and we saw it?
• 29:38
  I don't know. But I think, yeah, I think it
• 29:43
  does say what it what it is on the tin and and I think yeah, it
• 29:49
  just, I think it ticks all, I think it ticks all the boxes.
• 29:53
  Well, just to see how many boxes it does tick, let's find 3
• 29:58
  reasons each to recommend to him.
• 30:00
  With a sideman this should be easy.
• 30:03
  I mean, I've got about 10, but I'm going to stick myself to
• 30:05
  three after you. OK, Well, I never thought I'd
• 30:10
  say this, but Vic? My God, shocking me immediately.
• 30:22
  I think she is. And you know, I've already, I've
• 30:24
  already spoken about it. But I think I love the idea of
• 30:29
  her being a this orphan who's dragged into this world and she
• 30:38
  doesn't really know what she's doing.
• 30:39
  But she makes the most of of what she's got and and I don't
• 30:44
  think she's as good in any stories, any subsequent stories
• 30:49
  as she is in this. I think she's she can be quite
• 30:52
  funny whether that's intentional or or not.
• 30:57
  You know the Captain Hopper thing is just said is is is
• 31:03
  prime example of that. That's hilarious.
• 31:05
  She could have been like, you know, the bit in this way.
• 31:07
  She picks up the gun and she shoots the cyber.
• 31:09
  She could have been more impulsive like that, couldn't
• 31:11
  she? You know, a bit more, You know,
• 31:14
  like with Jamie, he had a few stories of like, oh, well, you
• 31:17
  know, what is it? What is it?
• 31:17
  And then it was just like, OK, I'm on board with this now.
• 31:20
  Let's go. Yeah, Yeah.
• 31:22
  And and I think, you know, when you watch this, you kind of, I
• 31:25
  suppose if you was to watch this in a viewing marathon, watching
• 31:30
  in order, if you go into watching Victoria with the with
• 31:35
  the idea that she's somebody who really shouldn't be there.
• 31:41
  And within each story she really shouldn't be there.
• 31:44
  And by the end of her run she leaves because she really
• 31:48
  shouldn't be there, you know. And I think, I think.
• 31:50
  She said it out loud. This isn't my world, yeah.
• 31:53
  And I like that. And you know, although I would
• 31:56
  have preferred them to have gone further with with, you know,
• 32:00
  kind of developing a character a little bit.
• 32:03
  Of a direction, isn't she? She's sort of like, you know.
• 32:06
  I want to be a part of this and then in front of the next story
• 32:08
  on right I'm here. Let's go exactly, yeah.
• 32:14
  Yeah, OK, Well, fantastic. My first probably obvious thing
• 32:20
  is Klieg and Kaftan, who I think a lot of people write off as
• 32:25
  being, you know, cartoon characters.
• 32:27
  I mean, they do feel like they step straight out of an episode
• 32:29
  at The Simpsons. They are so you could see.
• 32:35
  I want an episode of The Simpsons now with leaking kaftan
• 32:38
  turning up. Does it not, Homer?
• 32:45
  So, Marge, you have survived. No, no.
• 32:50
  God, they're glorious. And you know, these are like
• 32:53
  Graham Williams villains before their time.
• 32:55
  And we, we've had a few over the top villains already.
• 32:58
  You know the infamous. Or, in my opinion, the famous
• 33:01
  professors are off. Just don't want to imagine them
• 33:05
  hanging out. You know, some secret base after
• 33:07
  the benches. We're going to get that fucking
• 33:10
  doctor, all right? All these mad camp villains
• 33:14
  don't give big finish. Any ideas?
• 33:16
  Oh Jesus, say it three times. It'll pop into.
• 33:20
  But I think, I think the two actors know exactly what they're
• 33:23
  doing. You know, they know they're in
• 33:26
  this sort of madcap, sort of. Cod horror movie, Doctor Who and
• 33:32
  play to their hill. They're so funny.
• 33:37
  I can't ever take them seriously as characters or as villains,
• 33:41
  really, but they they bring an enormous amount of enjoyment to
• 33:45
  the story. So they they bring the story to
• 33:47
  life, don't they? They, you know, they they give
• 33:50
  it some blavour. I think League might be the most
• 33:56
  over the top villain until we hear so the Heat doctor if I'd
• 34:01
  have known you were sympathetic, you could have worked for me.
• 34:07
  Gordon, back to you. I would say probably the film
• 34:11
  sequences, I think it just adds a bit of richness to the story.
• 34:18
  You can see, you can see what the story could have been if it
• 34:22
  had been filmed on film. Some of the sequences are
• 34:27
  absolutely fantastic and. Do you know what?
• 34:32
  That last fight with the Cyberman, It had the backdrop of
• 34:36
  the tombs as they were grappling about, because it was a healing.
• 34:39
  Oh, it looked terrific, yeah. And it from the, you know, from
• 34:42
  the opening shots as well, where they, where they've landed on
• 34:45
  telos and it just looks filmic. It feels big and epic and yeah,
• 34:55
  it's it looks fantastic. This is sort of open, spacious
• 34:59
  and then gets kind of smaller and smaller and then you go
• 35:02
  underground. So it feels even more
• 35:04
  claustrophobic. Yeah, yeah.
• 35:07
  OK, my second thing then is going to be I want to praise
• 35:13
  Maurice Barry because I don't think he gets enough.
• 35:17
  He did what? The Moon Base.
• 35:19
  The Human Side Men and the Dominators.
• 35:21
  I recently did the Dominators with Fraser and came to
• 35:24
  reappraise a lot of the direction in that he is a
• 35:28
  director of the old school. Apparently, by all accounts, he
• 35:31
  was a bit of a curmudgeonly old bugger.
• 35:35
  But he knows how to frame a shot.
• 35:38
  He knows how to deliver a set piece, clearly knows how to
• 35:41
  handle Patrick Trouton. So I think he gets the best out
• 35:45
  of him. Whether it's him, you know,
• 35:47
  going around that moon base, snipping off shoelaces and and
• 35:50
  acting like a little imp. Or in this in that sequence for
• 35:53
  Victoria, where you know he gets to that nice character moment or
• 35:57
  dominate is where he's pretending to be a fucking
• 35:59
  idiot. Do you remember those scenes?
• 36:01
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's. Like, you know, he can work with
• 36:03
  Trout, I think. I would like to see maybe one
• 36:07
  more. I think that DOMINATES was the
• 36:09
  best out for him. Yeah, I.
• 36:11
  I wouldn't want to handle him any of those great stories from
• 36:14
  Season 6, but maybe even something in colour, you know?
• 36:17
  Yeah, would have been interested to see see how we worked with
• 36:20
  Pertwee. But I think there's a reason why
• 36:23
  people remember Cybermen on the moon, Cybermen in their tombs.
• 36:27
  And I'm going to say it, Fraser, there's a reason why people
• 36:32
  remember the quarks as well. You know, so Morris Barry is my
• 36:35
  second. Oh, OK, So OK, I'm going to go
• 36:44
  with the actual Cybermen because I I don't think they were ever
• 36:53
  bettered after this story. I don't think.
• 36:57
  I think this this is if you if you look at the Moon Base as
• 37:01
  being a bit of a, well, this is kind of a bit of a sequel to the
• 37:04
  Moon Base isn't it. But I don't think they ever
• 37:06
  looked better after this story or no, no, no, that's that's
• 37:12
  maybe not right because they, I love the invasion Cybermen.
• 37:16
  But I think with this I I love the kind of the the silent kind
• 37:22
  of silent killers. Just those blank looks that they
• 37:26
  give people. I think they're fantastic and I
• 37:31
  would love for them to revisit this kind of design because I
• 37:36
  think with a few tweaks it would work in in modern who you know
• 37:41
  we we saw how the the the Mondassi and style Cyberman
• 37:44
  worked and world enough in time world enough in time.
• 37:50
  I just think that they, yeah, they were never better after
• 37:52
  this. Really.
• 37:53
  It's. Almost like there's never been.
• 37:56
  There's been a sideman story, as in like, where the idea of the
• 38:00
  sidemen turning up, is this enticing, You know, like after
• 38:04
  this they're always like, yeah, OK, the sidemen are here.
• 38:06
  Great set piece action. I think maybe Graham Harper has
• 38:10
  a stab at it in Rise of the Sidemen, actually, and he keeps
• 38:14
  them off screen for ages, so when they finally come and start
• 38:17
  smashing through windows and stuff.
• 38:19
  But it's kind of different again because this is such a like a
• 38:21
  massive idea. We're going down into their
• 38:24
  frozen tombs, you know, So it means you know, and it's not
• 38:28
  like we don't know they're in it.
• 38:29
  It's called to him and Cybermen, and they've got that fucking
• 38:31
  tramp stamp, you know? Oh, yeah, they're in this.
• 38:35
  All right. They're coming.
• 38:36
  OK, Yeah. When I hang out with these
• 38:38
  boring characters for a bit. But they'll be coming, yeah, I
• 38:41
  think. Yeah, maybe they're.
• 38:43
  Maybe the idea of the Cybermen hasn't been as exciting.
• 38:46
  I think so. And you know, you kind of it's a
• 38:49
  bit like the dialects, really, before Davros turned up.
• 38:52
  You know, you there's something a little bit more sinister about
• 38:56
  them in their early days. You know, they're they're
• 39:01
  there's something to be feared, you know, they quite clearly
• 39:05
  have no emotions. Whereas we get into the I love
• 39:10
  80 Cybermen, I love David Banks, but they're very different and
• 39:15
  they're they're much more, I can explain it.
• 39:20
  They're they're much more kind of cartoon villains, you know,
• 39:25
  They're very they're of their time.
• 39:28
  You can't imagine. I can't imagine the Cybermen
• 39:31
  working in an 80s story. They tried to do scale with
• 39:36
  Ershock, didn't they? And they did it well.
• 39:37
  But it's a different, it's a very different kind of story.
• 39:40
  It's yeah, and it's it's a different Cyberman as well.
• 39:43
  You know, it's I still think they're great, but they're just
• 39:45
  different. They're just.
• 39:47
  Different Trooper Cybermen, isn't it?
• 39:48
  It's very Post Star Wars Cybermen, Yeah, It's why I don't
• 39:52
  like, in particular the the Cybermen of Nuhu, really.
• 39:56
  Because there's just something I never get, that same sense of
• 40:02
  fear that I get. As well, aren't they?
• 40:06
  Yeah, I think the worst day Daleks.
• 40:09
  They get beaten by James Corden loving his son.
• 40:11
  Rubbish. Exactly.
• 40:14
  Yeah. And you know, you kind of, I
• 40:17
  think the worst date they ever got was probably in in in Dark
• 40:21
  water and where they were just. Lying about, zooming around like
• 40:28
  Iron Man, you know, and it's like, this is not what cyber men
• 40:30
  do. Talk about.
• 40:32
  Camp the Brigadier came along, Cyber Man with a mustache.
• 40:38
  I'll just imagine that. She needed the Briggs cap on the
• 40:43
  knee. Well, for my third do, you know,
• 40:46
  I'm very tempted to say the cyber controller, because I've
• 40:49
  never before seen such an impressive Robin Head as he's
• 40:53
  got. But I'm going to say I'm going
• 40:57
  to single out Patrick Trowell, who I think brings a hell of a
• 41:00
  lot of worth acting worth to this story.
• 41:03
  I think there's some really hokey performances in this.
• 41:06
  He just knows what he's doing at this point, you know.
• 41:09
  And you're right, he's a bit soon to start.
• 41:11
  He's very funny. He can be really sweet.
• 41:14
  He has that lovely moment where he grabs Jamie's hand as he
• 41:16
  going in the tombs. Yeah, and he sells it all.
• 41:20
  He sells every single moment. I mean, you know, that's just to
• 41:23
  make that bit where those ridiculous cyber Mads surround
• 41:27
  them feel like a genuinely tense moment because he's hopping
• 41:30
  about all over the place going everyone wake up to be danger.
• 41:35
  He's he's just brilliant. Like, I think he took him a
• 41:37
  little while to settle into the role.
• 41:39
  Yeah, couple of stories, macro terror maybe.
• 41:42
  I think is where he really gets, but then he just flies from that
• 41:46
  point on and. He never, he never feels like
• 41:49
  he's he's kind of. He doesn't feel big and
• 41:55
  overpowering. He's he's very good at being a a
• 42:00
  doctor that's there in the background influencing things.
• 42:06
  And that's not to say that he doesn't stand out in the store.
• 42:08
  It's because he does. But he's not like, he's not
• 42:12
  like, you know, a kind of a tenant Dr. that you know he's
• 42:15
  he's not focused on him. He doesn't behave like he's the
• 42:19
  smartest person in the room, does he?
• 42:21
  No. No, he doesn't know.
• 42:22
  He's a little sly boots there whilst everyone else is talking.
• 42:26
  He's touching their controls, you know, Go, go down there and
• 42:29
  see what's down there. Let's do it.
• 42:33
  Your little sods. Be careful what you wish for.
• 42:37
  Exactly. They're very, very manipulative.
• 42:40
  Yeah, very much a bit interesting.
• 42:43
  Interesting. Well, Jim, thus ends our
• 42:47
  discussion of this iconic story. Whereabouts are we heading in
• 42:53
  About 5 minutes time? We are going to visit a another
• 42:58
  Victorian young lady. We are going to visit one of the
• 43:04
  splinters of Clara in God. In the Victorian age, we're
• 43:12
  going to watch The Snowmen. Oh, that's my favorite Clara of
• 43:16
  all. Yeah, and I believe it's the
• 43:20
  pilot of the new podcast Jim Allenby presents.
• 43:27
  Don't put the pressure on me. I'll tell you what I I think
• 43:32
  there's plenty to discuss in The Snowman.
• 43:34
  I mean, both quite like it. With some innovations, yes, but
• 43:38
  it would be really nice to get into the insurance and outs of
• 43:40
  the year as well. Yeah, I think so.
• 43:43
  Let's just say until next time or two minutes time, Do you know
• 43:51
  what, I'll just kind of actually.