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76. Family Constellations and the Root System Beneath Us with Suzi Tucker · Constellations and all that...

0:00
Tracy: Kia ora and welcome to Constellations and All That.
0:03
Tracy: I'm your host, Tracey Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators from, and clients from around the world.
0:13
Tracy: Looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea, and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
0:23
Tracy: We'd love for you to join us.
0:25
Tracy: I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
0:33
Tracy: Kia ora, everyone.
0:34
Tracy: Welcome to Constellations and All That.
0:36
Tracy: Today I have the pleasure, the utmost pleasure, of chatting with Susie Tucker.
0:41
Tracy: Welcome, Susie.
0:42
Suzi: Ah, thank you so much.
0:44
Suzi: What a pleasure to be here, Tracey.
0:46
Tracy: I don't know if you've listened to too many of my podcasts, but my, the way I roll is I don't introduce you as in giving your credentials, but I invite you to please share a little bit about yourself for the listeners and the viewers.
0:59
Suzi: I, I love that actually because, you know, you think of yourself differently at different times in your life, and every time I do a podcast I think, "Oh, that's what I wanna emphasize," or, "That's what I wanna emphasize," or... Anyway, so I like to tell people, and I think I'm borrowing this phrase from somebody else actually, that, um, I came to constellation, I would describe, accidentally as I think most people sort of have, right?
1:30
Suzi: Uh, I don't think when I was a little girl, um, somebody asked me what I wanted to do, I don't believe I said, "I want to go into family constellations." But, um, I met Bert as a, uh, publisher and as an editor, and so I have to say most of my early learning was over dinner, and I didn't realize what an extraordinary, uh, privilege that was- Mm.
2:00
Suzi: Until sort of late in the game.
2:03
Suzi: And now I think, "Whoa, I am one lucky woman," and I take that seriously.
2:09
Suzi: But anyway, so I, I started working with him.
2:14
Suzi: He actually gave me a little piece of paper, a- it was actually a napkin that said, "The Bert Hellinger Institute, USA" on a little, on a little napkin many, many, many, many years ago.
2:28
Suzi: Probably in 2000, I wanna say.
2:30
Suzi: So I've been doing this work in one form or another or in many forms s- since about 2000.
2:38
Tracy: Wow.
2:40
Tracy: And was the napkin, was what he wrote on the napkin, was that a, was that his institute or yours, or what he was seeing for you?
2:48
Suzi: My, mine.
2:49
Suzi: Wow.
2:49
Suzi: Right?
2:50
Suzi: So, like, such, such a Hellinger thing, especially in the early days, I think.
2:56
Suzi: You know, go out- And do it, right?
3:00
Suzi: Mm-hmm.
3:00
Suzi: Go out and take the work and do it.
3:03
Suzi: And it l- that kinda let many flowers bloom mentality that he had.
3:09
Suzi: With the help of, and I know Raquel s- Schlosser also mentions his name, and I think I, uh, will mention it as well because his name is a little bit lost.
3:22
Suzi: But with the...
3:24
Suzi: I would not say with the help, I would say with the absolute determination and tenacity of Harold Honan, we started something in the United States.
3:36
Suzi: I do- I don't think I w- I know I would have not have done it on my own.
3:41
Tracy: I know that.
3:41
Tracy: Okay.
3:41
Tracy: Yeah, and his name is really just, for me, just starting to circulate, so I'd love to know a little bit more about him.
3:48
Tracy: But also, and, and I'll put that here, first of all, I know that you're a publisher, but I'd love for you to share a little bit about that, um, because you, you've been instrumental in printing and releasing a lot of, um, really important information.
4:06
Suzi: Yeah.
4:07
Suzi: So I'll, I'll give you another name, because really I got to ride a lot of coattails when I was younger.
4:15
Suzi: And I would say that I have developed my own coattails now.
4:19
Suzi: But certainly in the beginning, um...
4:19
Suzi: So I, I had a publishing company.
4:25
Suzi: I no longer... I stepped away from it, um, because I just got too busy to do it.
4:30
Suzi: Mm-hmm.
4:30
Suzi: What a wonderful reason.
4:32
Suzi: But I had started it with a man named Jeffrey K. Zeig.
4:37
Suzi: And Jeff is a, uh, Ericksonian therapist, very well known across the globe, and he is the reason that Bert Hellinger's work is published in the United States.
4:52
Suzi: So I like to tell the story 'cause it strikes me as sort of amusing that when I first got a partial manuscript from Bert, and I think it was really just the transcript of one constellation, I said, "Well, absolutely not. We cannot pub..." We were kind of a mainstream, small, independent publisher.
5:16
Suzi: I said, "We can't publish this.
5:17
Suzi: It's not gonna... It's not appropriate for..." And Jeff said to me, and he never said anything to me about editorial matters, he said to me, "Would you look at it again, please?" He said, "I know this man." Traveling w- in the same circles, teaching, and also Bert was very, very interested in Ericksonian hypnotherapy.
5:47
Suzi: Um, and you see it in his work.
5:50
Suzi: So I said, "Okay, I'll take another look at it." Proceeded to work for the next year on Love's Hidden Symmetry, mostly with Hunter Beaumont, who n- has now died, much to my shock.
6:02
Suzi: But anyway, and, and with Gunthard Weber, but really mostly with Hunter.
6:08
Suzi: And then we kind of worked on what I would say we published the core books.
6:13
Suzi: So Love's Hidden Symmetry, which I like to tell people my publisher mistakenly called Love's Hidden Sym- Cemetery.
6:23
Tracy: That's a faux pas, isn't
6:24
Suzi: it?
6:25
Suzi: It is.
6:25
Suzi: And he be- I began to correct him, then I said, "Well, sort of, actually." And Acknowledging What Is, and Love's Own Truths- Yeah ... and Supporting Love, and a bunch of, all the early videos that, uh, Hunter and Bert.
6:42
Suzi: So thank heavens, or thank somebody rather, that Jeff Zeig said to me, "Hey, Suzy, would you look at this again?"
6:50
Tracy: Yeah.
6:50
Tracy: And- Important, important stuff...
6:52
Tracy: Suzi: important stuff.
6:53
Tracy: And then I kind of look back and I sort of think, "Well, maybe I was hesitant because something in me knew everything's gonna change for me." Mm.
7:05
Tracy: You know, that there was just this little bit of, uh, you know, th- this is different.
7:10
Tracy: This feels different, you know?
7:13
Tracy: Oh, that's amazing.
7:13
Suzi: And, yeah, yeah, yeah.
7:15
Suzi: And J- Jeff is still, you know, Jeff is still around teaching.
7:19
Tracy: And so you, I didn't realize you did, um, videos as well.
7:23
Tracy: I knew that you- Yeah ... had published books.
7:26
Suzi: Yeah, I published, um, I mean, other videos of Erickson and stuff, but there's a, you know, six volume set called, there's Healing Love, and Holding Love, and, um, a fabulous, fabulous conversation with Bert Hellinger, Rupert Sheldrake, and, um, Madame Schutzenberger.
7:50
Suzi: I think that's how you say her name.
7:52
Suzi: Mm. Just an extraordinary, extraordinary conversation called Reviewing Assumptions.
7:58
Suzi: So the, the early, you know, his early output was just, you know, foundational.
8:05
Suzi: Just foundational.
8:06
Suzi: And it was like, you know, he had this energy, he j- just had to get it down and out, and it was a fun time to be working with him.
8:17
Tracy: Wow, that's really cool.
8:18
Tracy: And, and, and they are available to purchase?
8:21
Suzi: They are.
8:22
Suzi: You g- uh, go to the, um, Milton H.
8:26
Suzi: Erickson Foundation.
8:28
Tracy: Okay.
8:28
Tracy: Yeah That's b- that's brilliant.
8:31
Tracy: And what, what are you up to now?
8:32
Tracy: I know that, uh, you're, you've got a busy schedule ahead of you.
8:37
Tracy: You're going to-
8:38
Suzi: I do ... be
8:39
Tracy: with, with Leslie, and you said at the-
8:41
Suzi: I do things like the West Coast, uh, Intensive, and I do, uh, Omega Institute every summer.
8:49
Suzi: It's a little home away from home.
8:52
Suzi: I, I now go to the Bahamas in the sum- Oh ... in January, actually.
8:57
Suzi: So I do some of that stuff.
8:58
Suzi: I really love to teach, and so I'm just beginning my new art and practice, which is a 16-month exploration.
9:09
Suzi: Pretty intense.
9:11
Suzi: People are pretty serious who do it.
9:14
Suzi: Part on Zoom, part in person.
9:18
Suzi: Um, so I'll start that in August.
9:22
Suzi: I do a lot of teaching.
9:23
Suzi: I do experiential conversation.
9:26
Suzi: It's probably every- Mm ... third weekend on a theme.
9:29
Suzi: So I do love to kind of, um... You know, it's like when, when people would come to me as authors and they would have a paradigm, right, they would... EMDR or NLP or whatever their paradigm was, I would always say to them, "Start with the theme.
9:49
Suzi: Let your title be the theme, and then let your paradigm be the subtitle." Right?
9:55
Suzi: So in the experiential conversations, that's sort of my idea.
9:59
Suzi: Like, I let... I know that people have questions about money or relationship or adoption or... So I, I go by the theme, and then the lens is just my lens.
10:12
Suzi: Mm. So I do that very regularly, and I do some supervision teaching as well.
10:17
Suzi: So, and writing.
10:19
Suzi: That's my great- Yeah ... love.
10:20
Tracy: Yeah.
10:21
Suzi: That's my great love.
10:22
Tracy: Brilliant.
10:23
Tracy: Brilliant.
10:24
Tracy: So if anyone that's listening is wanting to join you in the West Coast or Omega, how would they find you for that?
10:31
Tracy: Just,
10:32
Suzi: just go to my, um, my website is, it's got everything.
10:37
Suzi: So it's Suzi Tucker, S-U-Z-I Tucker, T-U-C-K-E-R, .com.
10:44
Tracy: Brilliant.
10:45
Tracy: How do you, if you're having a conversation with someone and, and they've never heard of constellations before, how do you describe it?
10:52
Tracy: What would be your elevator pitch, as such?
10:56
Suzi: Kind of, it, it changes a little bit, but it, it, I have to say, I ha- always have this remarkable experience of people knowing what I'm talking about- Mm before it's fully out of my mouth.
11:08
Tracy: Wow.
11:08
Tracy: Right?
11:10
Suzi: And I had this, like, one moment, I was literally on a Starbucks line, and for some reason it was very crowded.
11:19
Suzi: And the woman in front of me sort of said- I don't know why, but she sort of said, "So what are you doing today?" We were near Lincoln Center.
11:26
Suzi: I think that's why she asked me, because she was going to Lincoln Center, and I said, "Well, I teach something called family constellation." And she, of course, said what many people said, she said,"Oh, like the stars?" The stars.
11:39
Suzi: "Astrology?"
11:40
Tracy: Mm. And I,
11:41
Suzi: and, uh, this is the first time I ever said that.
11:44
Suzi: Now I've said it a million times.
11:46
Suzi: I said, "Well, it's a little bit like if I pulled the stars out of the sky and planted them in the dirt." I said, "I'm really looking at the root system of the individual- Mm and how it is nested in the larger root system, and how those two things inform each other." And then I just said, "You know, five generations back, the choices people made, and often the choices they didn't make, get us caught up in a language that by the time to- it gets to us, we don't know the reasons why, but we speak the language." And she looked at me and she said,"Hmm." She said, "Like, would secrets be an appropriate..." And I started laughing, and I said, "Well, obviously you have been to a workshop.
12:38
Suzi: Yes, secrets are um, often very important be- because it's where the language becomes obscure, and somewhere in the generations there's a reason for that.
12:53
Suzi: But we experience the impact without knowing the reasons." I love that description.
12:59
Suzi: So- Yeah.
12:59
Suzi: Yeah.
13:00
Suzi: Thank you.
13:01
Suzi: And as I say, I really kind of, you know, again and again, you know, I'll be talking to somebody... I was talking to somebody at a conference once, and she said to me, she asked me what I did, and she said to me, she was a therapist, and she said to me, she gave me whatever her issue would be.
13:20
Suzi: I said, um, I, I said, "You're J- are you Jewish?" And she said, "Yes." I knew her name.
13:28
Suzi: And I said, "Well, imagine..." And I just gave her an image.
13:32
Suzi: I just said, "Imagine that your great-grandfather is over there."
13:38
Tracy: Mm.
13:38
Suzi: Right?
13:39
Suzi: Just, he's just over there.
13:41
Suzi: I mean, we can talk about, you know, 80 years ago, or we can talk about time, or I can say he's just over there, and you have- Mm some sort of bond with him that lives in your body and not in your mind.
13:58
Suzi: And so I'm looking over here, you know, at her great-grandfather, and I turn to her, and her mascara is completely running down her face based on an image that I am surfacing, I'm not creating.
14:15
Suzi: Mm. All right?
14:15
Suzi: I'm not creating it, I'm just- Bringing it to the surface.
14:19
Suzi: And now she has this connection between the challenge that she has always, the right to, or the ability to follow through, or whatever it is.
14:30
Suzi: And now she has a deep logic beyond the logic, oh, uh, you know, I always think, like, this logic is real and deep and I can work with.
14:45
Suzi: I can't work with the logic that just says, "Oh, I must be an idiot," or, "Ugh, I did it again." Yeah.
14:53
Suzi: "I'm so lazy." You know, or all of those internal ideas that we can beat ourselves up for, but we can't really do anything about.
15:03
Tracy: And the more you beat yourself up, the more you repeat them.
15:07
Suzi: Absolutely.
15:08
Suzi: Absolutely.
15:09
Suzi: You go into that tunnel, right?
15:11
Tracy: Do you have any, like, really standout moments, memories for your time with Bert?
15:16
Tracy: Like you said, you were, um, privileged to, to share many dinners with him, and I don't know.
15:23
Tracy: Or something that you may have, may have witnessed or, or... We'll start there.
15:27
Tracy: Yeah, we'll start
15:28
Suzi: there.
15:28
Suzi: Two things come to mind.
15:30
Suzi: One, I was at... I can really see where I am.
15:34
Suzi: We're having breakfast, and we're on, in Chelsea in New York City, and I'm hosting him at a place called Covenant House, which was a, um, place that took in runaways.
15:49
Suzi: Mm. And kids really in trouble, and a lot of LGT- a lot, a lot of gay, trans kids who just had nowhere to be, kicked out of their families and all that kind of stuff.
16:01
Suzi: Yeah.
16:02
Suzi: Anyway, so that's where I hosted him.
16:04
Suzi: And, um, we're having breakfast, and I asked him if he had ever been afraid.
16:11
Suzi: Something was going on, I think, in his world that was, um, people had kind of turned on him for something.
16:19
Suzi: And he seemed so peaceful.
16:22
Suzi: And he said, "Yes, I was afraid when I was a teenager and surrounded by war, and I knew that that level of terror would probably never be in my life again." So that really stood out for me, because it kind of, um, told me again where this work really comes from on that gut level.
16:47
Suzi: Mm.
16:47
Suzi: How do we reconcile the unfathomable?
16:51
Tracy: Yeah.
16:52
Tracy: What a beautiful question too.
16:54
Tracy: So were you going to work with the teenagers, or that was just where they hung out?
17:00
Suzi: Wow.
17:00
Suzi: This is, we rented space, and the, the money went to support Covenant House.
17:08
Suzi: Um, although many of the teenagers, they were serving the food and baking- Yeah the food and all of that for us.
17:15
Suzi: And it was really fun because I would sit on the stage with Burt, and I would notice them lingering , watching.
17:25
Suzi: Mm. It was, it was quite, quite, quite a thing.
17:28
Suzi: Quite a thing.
17:29
Suzi: Um, and I was very nervous about it because I knew it wasn't the beautiful spaces he was used to.
17:37
Suzi: And he walked into that space, and he looked around, and he said to me, "I love it." So that really stands out to me.
17:47
Suzi: And then it stands out to me that he, that he was with me, I guess, is maybe the way I would put it.
17:54
Suzi: I, I host... The last time I hosted him was 2008, and my husband was dying at that time.
18:03
Suzi: It was just, just yesterday, you know?
18:05
Suzi: Mm. Just yesterday.
18:06
Suzi: And there was something about continuing to do the work and feeling Burt, Burt, who was my husband, there, and feeling the kind of planting seeds for the future, and Burt's personal kindness and care in that space among 500 people that he just had.
18:30
Suzi: You know, he, he had the attention, I think, of an emergency room doctor.
18:35
Suzi: He could give you five seconds, but was so there for that five seconds that it felt- Yeah ... you know, he, he had that ability.
18:43
Suzi: So I am grateful, again, sort of in retrospect, not realizing how fortunate I was to have his good company during that time.
18:54
Tracy: Yeah.
18:55
Suzi: So those are the things- Mm ... that stand out today.
18:58
Tracy: Thank you for sharing that.
19:00
Tracy: And, uh- Of course ... yeah, to feel the tenderness in, in that too, so.
19:05
Tracy: I usually do this on the fly, so I'm just... And here's me talking to a well-established writer, presenter, publisher, and I'm just winging it.
19:15
Tracy: This is how
19:15
Suzi: I- That's the way to do it, is doing it.
19:18
Suzi: Do you know, when I do a, when I do a presentation, we're probably very similar in this way.
19:23
Suzi: When I do a presentation, I, I write often before it, but then I don't even know where what I've written is, right?
19:31
Suzi: And I always say, my, my assistants laugh at me because I always say, "I have great anxiety that I'm gonna open my mouth and nothing's gonna come out." But my sense is, particularly as- A writer, but as a speaker as well, that there's this line of women behind me who couldn't, who would be hung or drowned or institutionalized or silenced somehow.
19:59
Suzi: And that when I open my mouth, I am speaking with them.
20:04
Tracy: Yeah.
20:04
Tracy: Like,
20:05
Suzi: and that really is very, uh...
20:05
Suzi: Anyway, I, I, I like that feeling of deep accompaniment, and also the sense that I have the privilege to be able to speak and to write, to even put my name to things, to have a voice.
20:24
Suzi: So I suppose I do things on the fly as well, but sort of not alone, I think.
20:32
Suzi: We're not alone.
20:34
Tracy: Yes.
20:34
Tracy: This work has, has taught me, you know, I... For me, I felt most of my life in, in my experiences, but yeah, I love the how unalone I feel having met this work and recognizing the things that were there that were always, always there, but being able to give them a place.
20:52
Tracy: So, yeah.
20:54
Tracy: Yeah, and I love that- And al- and
20:54
Suzi: also ta- taking your place, right?
20:56
Suzi: Mm. I mean, I think of you doing this, and I think for somebody who has felt alone, to be willing and able, and maybe, maybe it's a lesson you didn't ask for, but being particularly well-positioned to take the lead.
21:14
Suzi: And as you take the lead, we all follow you in a certain
21:18
Tracy: way.
21:19
Suzi: Yeah.
21:20
Suzi: Thank
21:21
Tracy: you.
21:21
Tracy: I get that.
21:23
Tracy: I love when I listen to you,'cause I've popped in and out of some of your, um, teachings over the years, as you may remember.
21:31
Tracy: And there's always- I do ... the way you speak, I always get so much from it.
21:36
Tracy: Like, even just sharing a story about the woman standing behind you, there's so much in that.
21:43
Tracy: Small, brief sentences, but there's- Mm-hmm ... there's always a much bigger...
21:49
Tracy: For myself, there's always so- something very big and, um, what's the word?
21:55
Tracy: Usually a, a, a nugget in there for
21:57
Suzi: me.
21:57
Suzi: Thank you.
21:58
Suzi: I'm glad.
21:59
Suzi: I'm glad.
22:00
Suzi: Where are, are your ancestors from?
22:02
Suzi: So on my father's side, they're Hungarian.
22:05
Suzi: Mm. And on my mom's side, going way back, they're Welsh and Irish and English.
22:13
Suzi: But she, her, her greats, right, her grands and her greats, were in, um, Kentucky- Pennsylvania and Indiana.
22:24
Suzi: A lot of poverty, a lot of, um- Yeah ... farmers and coal miners and that kind of thing.
22:31
Suzi: I always think, you know, it's so interesting when we think about trauma and we think about, you know, wars and all of that, and my, my father's side is more obvious in a certain way.
22:43
Suzi: He's, uh, came from a Jewish family.
22:46
Suzi: He married a Catholic woman.
22:49
Suzi: Um, I mean, I'm sorry, his father married a Catholic woman.
22:52
Suzi: But a Jewish family in Hungary, so we, we know pogroms, and also very successful in Hungary.
22:59
Suzi: But a kind of more obvious history.
23:01
Suzi: But, uh, you know, I ... It was a long time before I started thinking about my mom, and thinking about one of the first stories she ever told me was that she and her sister and her parents lived in a car in New York City- Mm for several months.
23:21
Suzi: They drove from- Wow ... Indiana, and they lived in this car, and they were taken in eventually by the Salvation Army.
23:30
Suzi: Part of the ... And the reason she told me it be- was because she always gave money to the people ringing the bells at Christmas in the Salvation Army, and I thought that was sort of interesting, because of her relationship with religion and whatever.
23:45
Suzi: And she said, "Oh, but they took us in." Mm. And I have such a, a sense of, um, you know, what, what, what had they not?
23:57
Suzi: So, um, she's very proud of her Welsh background.
24:03
Suzi: I'm quite convinced that it's because it was the most obscure.
24:07
Suzi: People knew the least about Wales, and she really liked that idea.
24:13
Suzi: She really loved that idea.
24:15
Suzi: But one day, because Wales was such a sort of fantasy for her, I really want to, um ... D- I teach, actually.
24:23
Suzi: I'd love to do some workshops in Wales, Scotland, Ireland, England, just to kind of go to her, her territory.
24:30
Suzi: And I do do a little teaching.
24:33
Suzi: Um, got this wonderful, fabulous opportunity to do some online teaching, and we're, we're talking about doing it in person with a Bulgarian group.
24:44
Suzi: Mm. So that's a little bit for my father.
24:46
Suzi: This woman reached out, and she said she was Bulgarian, and we spoke, and she's delightful and wonderful.
24:52
Suzi: But also I noticed myself kind of go, "I'll do that." Mm. And then I thought, "Right," 'cause it's just a hop, skip, and a jump from Hungary.
25:00
Tracy: So if anyone's listening and they're in, uh, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, and you'd like to host Susie, great.
25:08
Suzi: Do you know, I didn't travel for years.
25:10
Suzi: I didn't travel for years because I, um, uh- So this sounds so terribly sad, but when my husband died, I hated to leave home.
25:19
Suzi: This sounds counterintuitive, but when he was alive, I loved to leave because I loved to come back.
25:27
Suzi: When he died, I had this strange experience of I didn't like to leave because I hated coming back.
25:34
Suzi: Oh.
25:34
Suzi: So, and it's only been, you know, maybe five years where I've become quite the little traveler, so.
25:43
Suzi: So I never went to Burn Ruby.
25:45
Suzi: I never... I kind of did not have the experience that some folks have had.
25:51
Suzi: And, you know, I kind of, I know I missed out on a bunch of things, but that's the way it is.
25:56
Suzi: Yeah, I,
25:57
Tracy: I, I've just had Bill Mennel here in, in Aotearoa for our conference, and he was telling me about Burn Ruby, and I was like, "Oh." So many people that talk about it, it just sounds like an amazing experience.
26:10
Suzi: Yeah, yeah.
26:10
Suzi: So- We,
26:11
Tracy: we never know what we're gonna create in this world that is, uh, just as amazing.
26:15
Suzi: Totally.
26:16
Suzi: I think that's right.
26:18
Suzi: I think that's right.
26:20
Tracy: So in, on your journey with, you've, you've worked alongside Bert, you know, you've learnt from Bert.
26:28
Tracy: Who else would you say would be some of the influential teachers for you in this work?
26:34
Tracy: So then you put
26:35
Suzi: that on at the end, some of the influential teachers for me.
26:39
Suzi: So everybody teaches from their system, right?
26:42
Suzi: I think they're guided by... So you have the very spiritual teachers or you have the, you know, people who are guided by our own systems to some extent.
26:52
Suzi: So I am really guided by the writers.
26:55
Tracy: Mm.
26:56
Suzi: And I really, um, take, you know, B- Bert is right, right behind me.
27:01
Suzi: You know, he's in front of my mother and father, kind of their, in my image, their hands are on his back, um, because he offers something that kind of comes through them in a way that I can hear it.
27:16
Suzi: But alongside him are not actually facilitators, right?
27:21
Suzi: Because the way I came up, he was the one.
27:25
Suzi: Yeah.
27:25
Suzi: Right?
27:26
Suzi: So I, you know, I ha- I had a lovely friendship with Mark Wallin, and I...
27:31
Suzi: But we learned together in some ways.
27:35
Suzi: Mark and I kind of grew up in the work together on some level.
27:39
Suzi: Think of him as almost like a, you know, long lost brother or something.
27:43
Suzi: But for me, like James Baldwin, if you read James Baldwin- People think I get royalties from his books, I mention him so much.
27:50
Suzi: Right.
27:51
Suzi: But anyway, if you read James Baldwin and you don't know who's speaking, you would think it was some fantastic facilitator.
28:01
Suzi: Because his attention to inclusion, his attention to the hardest things in the world to be and do in everyday life are just so graceful, and so gritty, and so beautiful.
28:20
Suzi: So I would say James Baldwin, I would say Walt Whitman, I would say, uh, Virginia Satir if we want the kind of more therapy world.
28:29
Suzi: She, she's very important to me.
28:32
Suzi: Uh, Erickson, Jeff Zeig, my modern dance teacher, Bertram Ross, when I was 14.
28:39
Suzi: All these people are, um, the reason that I have any kind of repertoire, right?
28:45
Suzi: So, right?
28:47
Suzi: I feel like people are complex.
28:51
Suzi: I have to come to them with a whole palette of colors, not just one.
28:57
Suzi: And so, you know, it's like I remember, Tracy, more and more teachers as- Mm time goes on, and as I need them, in a way.
29:08
Suzi: Yeah.
29:08
Tracy: Yeah.
29:09
Suzi: Right?
29:09
Suzi: It's not just me.
29:10
Suzi: It can't just be me, right?
29:13
Tracy: Yeah.
29:13
Tracy: And in, in many ways they teach us in ways that we don't recognize at the time, too.
29:19
Tracy: Right?
29:20
Suzi: That's right, or don't know how to appreciate, or, or too egotistical to admit or something.
29:26
Tracy: Yeah.
29:27
Tracy: Yeah.
29:28
Tracy: Yeah.
29:29
Tracy: And then we grow up, or we get a little bit wiser.
29:32
Suzi: And then we... Yeah, if we're lucky.
29:33
Suzi: Some of us gather years, but not wisdom, I think.
29:36
Suzi: That's
29:37
Tracy: true.
29:37
Tracy: That's true.
29:38
Suzi: I try to do a little of both,
29:39
Tracy: at least.
29:40
Tracy: Aw.
29:40
Tracy: Thank you, Susie.
29:41
Tracy: Oh, I know we're, we're coming to the end of our conversation here.
29:44
Tracy: Is there anything else that you'd like to just, to share with the listeners and the viewers before we sign off?
29:50
Tracy: It's funny, like w- you know,
29:52
Suzi: things are, like, rushing to get out.
29:54
Suzi: Like, oh, this, that.
29:55
Suzi: I'll say, I think I'll just stick with the simplest thing because we d- we talked about Bert a lot, and I d- I don't talk about him that much, and I love the opportunity to.
30:05
Suzi: And I think that, you know, one of the sort of central experiences that I had of Bert, which I now have of myself, is to be the forever student, and to...
30:22
Suzi: You know, one of the beautiful things that I saw him do, and it's one of the things that I think constellation is, constellation is a shelter for every wisdom tradition that anybody has ever heard of.
30:38
Suzi: Right?
30:39
Tracy: Mm. Yeah.
30:40
Suzi: And so, you know, Bert quoted, quoted Rilke, and Jesus, and Freud, and Satir, and ... right?
30:51
Suzi: And so for me, you know, what I, I am relentlessly, I use the word optimistic, that's different than positive.
31:00
Suzi: I'm quite aware of the hell we are in right now.
31:05
Suzi: Mm. Um, and yet, and yet I feel the optimism of continuing to gather and to learn, and I think that's something that he really introduced to me.
31:21
Suzi: Mm. So- Yeah ... I sort of leave people with that, that where we can't fix, we can continue to be curious.
31:31
Suzi: We need to stay
31:33
Tracy: curious.
31:34
Tracy: Yeah, which has a, which has such lovely soft edges to it, doesn't it, to be curious?
31:40
Tracy: That's right.
31:40
Suzi: That's right.
31:41
Suzi: It's like- Conveys
31:42
Tracy: that expansion.
31:43
Tracy: Yeah.
31:43
Tracy: Yeah.
31:44
Tracy: I love that.
31:44
Tracy: I love that.
31:45
Tracy: Thank you.
31:46
Tracy: You're welcome.
31:47
Tracy: Thank you, Suzy.
31:49
Tracy: So it's been a pleasure to have you, uh, chat with, chat here, and I'd love to have you on again sometime in the future.
31:58
Tracy: Um, how- Just call me.
31:59
Tracy: Yeah.
32:00
Suzi: Just call me, I'll be here.
32:02
Tracy: And for anyone who's interested in working with Suzy or seeing what Suzy's up to, go to her website, suzytucker.com.
32:10
Tracy: Correct?
32:11
Tracy: Easy as that.
32:12
Tracy: Yeah.
32:12
Tracy: Correct.
32:12
Tracy: Easy as that.
32:13
Tracy: Exactly.
32:14
Suzi: Beautiful.
32:15
Tracy: Been a pleasure, absolute pleasure.
32:16
Suzi: Thank you so much, Tracey.
32:17
Suzi: I really, I, I love that you invited me, and I am honored to be here.
32:22
Tracy: Yeah.
32:23
Tracy: You're welcome.
32:24
Tracy: I've been admiring your, um, blinds in the background.
32:27
Tracy: They remind me of salt lamp- Thank you.
32:29
Tracy: Do you know the salt lamp that you put the bulb in- Uh, yes ... and they glow?
32:31
Tracy: Sure, sure.
32:31
Tracy: Yeah.
32:31
Tracy: So, so, so true.
32:32
Tracy: Feels like you've got two giant salt lamps supporting you in the background.
32:36
Tracy: Oh, I love
32:36
Suzi: that.
32:37
Suzi: I love that.
32:38
Suzi: I love that.
32:39
Suzi: I love ... thank you.
32:41
Tracy: Thank you.
32:42
Suzi: Till soon.
32:44
Tracy: Thank you for listening.
32:45
Tracy: Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
32:50
Tracy: You'll find me at tracey.cartwright, that's Tracey with no E,.cartwright.
32:56
Tracy: And, or head over to my website, traceycartwright.co.nz, and receive a free audio with a gift from your ancestors.
33:06
Tracy: So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.