Latest / The Accounting Podcast / Burning It Down To Build Better: How Community Is Key To Battling Burnout (from The Earmark Podcast)
Transcript
- Attention: This is a machine-generated transcript. As such, there may be spelling, grammar, and accuracy errors throughout. Thank you for your understanding! Madeline Reeves: [00:00:00] One time we held this event, and the big amazing idea that the marketing team came up with was that we were going to do a personality type testing, and that was going to match you with a unique drink to your personality type. And I was like, waiting for the event setup. And I was like, I know exactly what's going to happen here. And it was a room of 100 people and like 97 of them had the same drink because this profession attracts a certain type of person. Blake Oliver: [00:00:27] Are you an accountant with a continuing education requirement? You can earn free Nasba approved CPE for listening to this episode. Just visit earmarked app in your web browser, take a short quiz and get your certificate. Hello everyone and welcome to earmark I'm Blake Oliver. Burnout is crushing our profession, but it doesn't have to be. Today we're in Seattle at the Advisory Amplified Tour with two leaders who rebuilt work on their own terms. We're joined by Madeline Reeves, founder and CEO of Fearless Foundry and host of the Finding Fearless podcast. We're also joined by Lynette O'Connell, a CPA turned burnout prevention and recovery coach and founder of Burnout Bestie. We're going to cover the early warning signs most accountants miss how to redesign work with boundaries and community, and a first aid checklist for anyone at a breaking point. Thanks for being here, Madeline and Lynette. Lynette Oss Connell: [00:01:22] You go first. Madeline Reeves: [00:01:23] Thanks for having us. Lynette Oss Connell: [00:01:25] Yeah. Thank you, Blake, for being here. Blake Oliver: [00:01:27] So, Madeline, I'm going to start with you. Okay. We're very brave today. Sharing your a bit of your burnout story. Could you take us to that moment when you realized that how you were working wasn't sustainable? Madeline Reeves: [00:01:41] Yeah. So there was kind of two key moments in this story. And I think this is one of the interesting things. I was actually talking with someone in the audience about this earlier today is I think we all think we know what the burnout bottom feels like. And then you're like, oh, wait, it can go even deeper. Um, so I thought that my rock bottom was that moment where I was literally face down in a parking lot. Um, you know, looking up at my friend being like, okay, maybe I'll hire people. That will be the solution. And, um, I didn't really know, you know, that team building could actually lead to a new level of bottom for me. Um, I am a service oriented leader. I really love people. I love building teams, I love building culture. And, you know, at first when you start building a team, you get a lot back from it. There's a lot of like, for me, you know, I really want to be liked by my team. I really want to be that leader they go to for mentorship. But there was a capacity stretching that was happening where I was coaching up a team of 12 people while simultaneously still coaching and mentoring all of our clients. Madeline Reeves: [00:02:44] And I had two children, one of whom was under the age of three, and I had a brand new marriage, and I had just moved to a new town. And it was a pandemic. And so I remember the bottom pretty well. It was a moment where I was kind of holding all of those strings together. And as I told the story, we had four of our largest clients, all of whom were in contracts that were like $100,000 plus all back to back within 30 days. Say, actually, we're not continuing. We're we're cutting costs. And that was no fault of my team. We'd done exceptional work. We really loved those clients. Um, and so I was scrambling to save everything for everyone. And, um, I worked close a cdfi, if anyone knows what that is. It's a community development financial institution. I closed $100,000 round in 30 days to try and save payroll for my staff, and that money was gone within a couple months. And so that was the really big breaking point where I was like, I cannot keep saving the day for everyone anymore. Um, I can't even save it for myself. Blake Oliver: [00:03:50] And to put some numbers around this, you shared that it was I think half of your revenue just disappeared in like a month or something like that. So Though $1 million agency suddenly cut in half. Madeline Reeves: [00:04:06] And my payroll at this time was between 88 and 102,000 a month. Blake Oliver: [00:04:11] 80 and 102. Yeah. So that's so I mean, what. Okay, so. Madeline Reeves: [00:04:19] I was I was in the red for anyone who's doing that math. Blake Oliver: [00:04:21] Right. Madeline Reeves: [00:04:21] So I'm very honest around here. Blake Oliver: [00:04:24] I'm not good at mental math, but even I can figure that out. Yeah. Um, so, you know, what? Did you. Well, we'll come back to that. We'll come back to that. So that's where you were. You were at rock bottom. I think we can all agree. Okay. Lynette, you have a slightly different story. I mean, I guess they're kind of related in the sense that you. I think the phrase you have used in the past is engineered a life of overfunctioning. Lynette Oss Connell: [00:04:49] Yeah. Engineered a life of my own. Overfunctioning. Blake Oliver: [00:04:51] Okay. So explain. Explain that. Lynette Oss Connell: [00:04:54] Okay. So as a slight introduction to who I am and what I do, um, I spent about 15 years building and rebuilding different iterations of a CAS practice. I initially started just doing QuickBooks desktop and then QuickBooks online for clients. I had previously been an auditor, and so my clients quickly realized that I had a lot more to offer than just bookkeeping. And so I ended up building a CAS practice. Well, over the years, both of my biological kids ended up with serious, serious medical problems. And as a result, I ended up being in the hospital a lot and burning the candle at all ends. Possible. While I was trying to run my firm. And a lot of what led to my burnout was not work related, but the work didn't help. It was fueled by my personal life being very unmanageable. So what I did to answer your question, Blake, is I had all the things in line. I had a nanny. I had my mom as back up for the kids. I had to the best that the technology would have offered us at any point during that 15 years, I had workflow software. I had backups for all my clients. I had all the things you're supposed to have, and I can only imagine today if I was to do it again and have all these amazing pieces of technology, that what I did was not put solutions in place that freed me up. I put solutions in place so that I could just layer more on. And so I was layering responsibility on top of responsibility, and I wasn't giving myself space to reevaluate where I began and ended. And so I was using technology and using my support systems to dig myself further and further into Overfunctioning. Blake Oliver: [00:06:51] And what that looked like on your calendar was just endless boxes on your calendar. Lynette Oss Connell: [00:06:58] Yeah. So I'm, I like to say that calendaring is my superpower because at this point in my life, in that 15 years I was divorced, I was remarried, and so now I have five children in my blended family. And so in order to keep all of my responsibilities with all of my clients, all my staff, my kids, my step kids in line, my calendar is this rainbow blocking. I mean, I've shown many of you my calendar, and I felt so proud of it that I was so efficient and so on top of it. But the bottom line was that I was where the buck stopped and started, both at work and at home. And even though work for me ended up being a respite from a lot of the stress that was happening at home, I also wasn't in any capacity exercising perspective and boundaries around where I stopped and where I started. Blake Oliver: [00:07:53] You were using systems technology to just max yourself out. You weren't. You weren't thinking about the that like you might run out of energy. Yeah, yeah. You were just using it all. Lynette Oss Connell: [00:08:06] I think. Yeah, absolutely. And when you're a parent especially, and if you're a business owner or entrepreneur, you're a parent of your business, that is that is one of your children. That is you care about it. You will sacrifice for it because you have a vision. And with your kids too, you will go to any length and any extreme. Blake Oliver: [00:08:30] And and Madeline, you at that point, um, well, let me say this. So. So, Lynette, your your it was like a personal family crisis that led you to this moment, right? You had maxed out, and then it was it was like a medical thing. Was it, uh, or. Lynette Oss Connell: [00:08:49] Well, so one of my burnouts. So we say we burn it multiple times. Madeline Reeves: [00:08:53] Yeah, several times. Lynette Oss Connell: [00:08:55] Several times. I mean, you, like Madeline said, you think that you've hit the rock bottom, and then you rebuild, and then you hit a new rock bottom. And I mean. For me, it was just I would leave my firm or, you know, terminate my clients. I can't handle it. Life is too lifey. And then I would come back to them and say, you know, life is more solid. Would you be interested in my services? And they say, absolutely, we love you, right? So I'd go back to my clients and I would rebuild it with different tools and with better boundaries and, and all the things. Blake Oliver: [00:09:27] And so, Madeleine, you know, going back to where you were at when the, you know, when your firm kind of cut in half, like what, what came after that, like what was the change that you made so that you wouldn't repeat this cycle. Madeline Reeves: [00:09:44] So there were a couple things, um, one of which was pretty hard for me, which was I stopped trying to be so likable. Um, so I have been very conditioned, as I think most women are, to be a people pleaser and to, um, to like, live off of that feedback of like, you're good, you did a good job, you know, and and as a result of that, um, you know, I was kind of like jumping through hoops for clients of all shapes and sizes, um, some of whom were very large accounting firms that will not be named, um, that, you know, didn't really align with my values or vision for the company, but had known me from kind of my previous iteration and career and wanted to work with us. And it was like, okay, well, it's good money, you know, and man, in nothing like those terrible clients to make you like, question what good money is. You're like, ah, I don't know if I actually want you to pay me any money, like go away, please, please. Um, and so when we got to that point, the first thing was really, you know, that's why I brought it up in my talk today, talking about, you know, what are our values. And that brought me to this second point, which was really interesting. So in the process of scaling the company, as I mentioned, I went from myself to 12 people in under two years. And as somebody who really values that service based approach to leadership, you get really like caught up in the feedback of everybody around you. And again, wanting to be likable, it's like, well, what do you want our ideal client to be? Or what do you think that our value should be? Or what do you think our brand is about? And I had had a vision when I started, but it got really muddied because I had hired a bunch of really wonderful young creatives who wanted to be a part of something, and I wanted them to feel included. Madeline Reeves: [00:11:25] But then in that process, it really muddied the waters and distracted from the work we had come there to do. And so the big thing about that season of walking through the woods by myself was like, actually, there's only one person I can guarantee who's going to be around here in five years, and it is me. And I actually want to be working in a business I like. I want to be working with clients I want to spend time with. I want to be doing projects I love. We have a mantra now that's like, life is too short to work with people in projects you hate, so don't do it. And so I really, you know, flipped it on its head. And it's been all this time being like, I just have to do whatever the team wants, like, whatever keeps the team happy. And then I was like, and this is not to say I don't love my team. We've met many of them today. My team is incredible. But I focused on the business I came to build and I was like, the team will follow that, but I can't sit here and wait for everybody else and to do what they want to do, because I'm going to get lost in that and I'm going to keep burning myself out trying to please all these people. Blake Oliver: [00:12:27] What about you, Lynette? How did you, uh, unburden yourself? Lynette Oss Connell: [00:12:32] So the last the final iteration of my CAS practice was a firm I co-owned with my husband. And when we got to the point where I was so burnt out, he and I had a conversation about how the way I was running the firm was very lifestyle oriented. I didn't want to grow and grow and grow. I wanted to just have an organic, small group of clients that served my needs. My husband, on the other hand, wanted to grow and scale and all good things, and so he and I ended up having that reconciliation moment, just reconciling what it is that I need and what it is that he needs. And so we had to decide, am I going to keep the firm and keep it small, or is he going to keep the firm and grow it big? And so we ended up deciding that we were going to sell it. So we sold the firm and I transitioned out. But the breaking point for me, ultimately was this very quiet moment in the middle of the night. I had staff who were working for me. I had an assistant and I knew that I was overworking. I knew that I was overfunctioning, and I thought, surely the other people in my life would see it. And I wanted desperately somebody to call me into account. I desperately wanted somebody to intervene and say, hey, you're doing too much. And nobody was doing it. Nobody. And so I told my assistant, I said, Crystal, my new plan is that I'm going to do an overnight shift on Thursdays to do all the work that I can't get done during the rest of the week. I'm going to stay up all night and work. And I expected Crystal to say, lady, you're crazy. That's not a good idea. And she didn't. She said, how can I support you in that? And I said, I thought to myself, nobody's coming to rescue me. I need to. And so I need to stop. And that was a really hard moment to come to with yourself, to say, I'm this, I am overfunctioning. I'm done. This is not okay. Blake Oliver: [00:14:25] And it's okay to think about your own needs and yourself and not sacrifice yourself for your team, your clients, whatever it is that's external, your family. I mean. I feel like this is something that is kind of like a core problem in our profession. Like, it's not just it's like. I mean, I found myself doing this in public accounting where it's it's about how many hours can I bill? How much can I make for the firm? Sometimes that's the idea. It comes out in many different ways. Madeline Reeves: [00:15:04] So this reminds me of a story that I told a few events ago. So in another lifetime, I worked for the big green company that sold you guys on QBO. And, uh, and, and when I was doing that job, I had many different roles. But one time we held this event and the the big amazing idea that the marketing team came up with was that we were going to do a personality type testing, and that was going to match you with a unique drink to your personality type. And I was like, waiting for the event setup. And I was like, I know exactly what's going to happen here. And it was a room of 100 people and like 97 of them had the same drink because this profession attracts a certain type of person. And, you know, accountants, what is your primary love language? It's acts of service. It's it's that you live to serve. And that's why I love accounting professionals. I come from three generations of entrepreneurs. I have seen the way that businesses live or die by the quality of their accountant. And also, I watched during the pandemic as these people put themselves on the line for their clients in ways that you would not believe in that era. Madeline Reeves: [00:16:13] I led two firm communities, one for female firm founders and one for firm runners that had known me during my career at fathom and were looking for kind of top tier advisory firms to kind of cohort with and talk about practice development. And basically for two years, I held space for those leaders to just cry privately together on zoom because they were holding it together for their families. They were holding it together for their staff. They were, uh, delaying billing for all their clients, but trying to figure out their cash flow. They were filing PPP loans. They were figuring out what the IDL meant. They were watching their clients businesses fall apart, and they were just absorbing the aftershocks of that. And the reason I built this event was because we I went back to conferences and nobody was talking about what happened to you all, like what it was like for you to do that work for your clients was incredible, but it has a real impact on people. Blake Oliver: [00:17:11] Well, we were celebrating it that we had done this, but not really talking about the impact on us. So. How do we notice this is happening before it happens? Like, how do we, Lynette. How do we how do we avoid crashing and burning? How do we, you know, see the fire smoldering? Like. Like what? What are the signs? Lynette Oss Connell: [00:17:37] So if you're crashing and smoldering, you're, like, well into, like, very burnt out territory and desperately need a vacation. So that's first of all. But, um, generally speaking, there's three categories of symptom around burnout. And it's, um, emotional exhaustion that's carrying too much for too long, that can manifest looking like all kinds of things. We saw this in the pandemic with accountants, but especially with teachers and with nursing staff like hospital staff, all of our essential workers. Um, the second symptom of being burned out is cynicism. That feeling of jaded, the feeling that something you love to doing, you now no longer find joy in that is a big red flag. If you feel that happening to you, you're you're on your way to burnout. And the third major symptom is this feeling, lack of accomplishment that you're on a hamster wheel, that no matter what you're doing, you're not getting ahead. So most symptoms can fall into one of those categories. And we should see all of those symptoms as an indicator. Burnout isn't the end of something. It's an indicator that something needs to be adjusted for you to be your most successful self. Because as life moves on, your firm evolves. Society evolves. Your clients evolve. You're going to need to continually recalibrate what's working for you and what's working for your clients. And so intentionality where you take those symptoms, you take that jaded feeling. You take that feeling of being emotionally exhausted or not feeling like you're accomplishing anything. Take a step back and recalibrate. Get back in alignment. It's an indicator that you need to take back your own empowerment. Take take back agency. Blake Oliver: [00:19:32] And one way to do that is to say I'm only going to work with clients that I enjoy working with. Madeline Reeves: [00:19:37] I highly recommend that one. Lynette Oss Connell: [00:19:39] Um, it can also be I need to charge more. Yeah, it can also be. This is not my niche. Yes, but when you when you can recalibrate, reassess, you can make those agency oriented, empowered decisions. But if you don't give yourself time to reassess why you feel like junk, you're not going to make that empowered decision. Madeline Reeves: [00:19:58] Yeah we did so first. First and foremost, I'm like not to give you a step by step guide, but we redid our brand strategy which clarified our ideal client. And then that really quickly kicked some people off the menu. Then we did, um, the work that Ryan did today. Super important. We repackaged and productized all our services. I did an audit of every single client that we had had over the history of the business, identified who we liked, who we didn't put them in two camps, looked at all the common denominators. This is pretty easy to do with AI now. I didn't do it with AI back in the day, but I put them in two camps. Love them or hate them. And we looked at the common denominators, both from a services perspective, a time lining perspective as well around those services. What worked well, what didn't, and then use that to inform the products that we built as our service line. Um, and then from there we repriced and now we replace annually. So we do a price increase every year. And all of those things fundamentally change that. But the other piece there is that we built processes. And so what was really interesting about that piece of the puzzle is that I work with creatives and creatives like to be creative. Madeline Reeves: [00:21:06] And so when you start to put processes in place, there's a little bit of adjustment. And some people don't like that. But what I realized was I couldn't maintain a system where I was the glue like that was not going to work. And that's what I hear in that story, too. We were both the glue. I if I was going to step out and go on vacation for, you know, a week or two, people need to know how to onboard clients. They needed to know how our invoicing worked. They needed to know how to set up a client in our project management system. If I was the only person who could tell you how to do those things, that's not very scalable. It's not very sustainable. And so all of these little pieces, it's not like a thing that happened overnight. It took us well over like a year or two, but we stacked them one on top of the other and they unlocked. And then as those unlocked came, it also really helped us clarify, like who was a fit to work for our business. And some people laughed. And it doesn't mean I don't care about those people to this day. But I had to run a business that could actually work well for my well-being. Blake Oliver: [00:22:05] It's better for everyone. It's better for you. It's better for your team. In the end, your clients are happier. Um, it's a lot easier to say goodbye to a client when you can say, this is better for you and for me, right? Madeline Reeves: [00:22:17] Or when they break up with you. I love that one. You're like, yeah, sorry it didn't work out. Blake Oliver: [00:22:20] It's me. It's not you. Madeline Reeves: [00:22:22] Yeah. Best wishes. Blake Oliver: [00:22:25] Um, I, I love what you said about process because I'm obsessed with documenting processes and, you know, building those into, like, workflow systems. I love nerding out about that. And it ties into this burnout discussion, because if you want to as a small firm, get out of the weeds and be able to take a vacation, you've got to build that redundancy and document these processes and get them out of your own head. I mean, it's hard, though. It takes it's taken me years. It took me years in my firm to do it. And now it's taken me years. Again in in earmark. So it's not easy. It's really not. Um. Lynette Oss Connell: [00:23:10] To the processes point to when you take the time to systemize anything, you're, you're taking stress off of your employees as well, because burnout isn't just a problem for us as firm leaders or entrepreneurs. It's a problem for our employees too. And so anything we can do to reduce the collective stress, because that's what burnout is at. The bottom line is the collective impact of stress on a person. That's all it is. It's mental, physical, emotional stress like compounded. So it's not just about us either. When we set good examples of reducing stress for the organization, we equip our employees to be more sustainable as well. Blake Oliver: [00:23:51] Let's talk about that then, because right, once we've tackled burnout for ourselves, then it's how do we avoid our. How do we help our team avoid getting burned out? Right. So. You've both talked about community, the role of community in in your own team. And then also just broadly, I mean, this is a community essentially that's been created here. Um, what does it mean to to build a community that that supports each other? Like, what does that look like? Uh, when it comes to this, this burnout discussion? Madeline Reeves: [00:24:25] I think it starts with getting really real with each other. Um, this is why I'm like, I didn't want to give that speech to a thousand people. Um, I was not ready to do that. Um, but I really think that we need to have smaller spaces where we can talk candidly about what we're going through. Um, so that we can build trust and vulnerability with each other. And I feel like vulnerability is also one of those words that gets thrown around a lot. But like, being vulnerable could just be as simple as, like, sharing with somebody like, this is a part that I'm still working on. Or like this part I haven't figured out yet. And I think there's a lot of like larger firm communities, especially like web based firm communities where there's a little bit of like a pressure to perform and like, let's be honest, we're all like A-plus students around here. And so like that pressure to, like, show up and just show like your shiny, polished like I have it figured out, self is really high. And so I think that one of the best ways that we can have community is just to have like things that are a little imperfect or spaces where, you know, we're just showing up and being like, yep, you know, I, you know, the lunch came five minutes late, but we all ate today, you know, or like whatever so that we can be able to figure out and keep it moving, but also feel safe to say like, yeah, I don't have it all together all the time. Madeline Reeves: [00:25:39] You know, I am still figuring this piece of the puzzle out. And I think also being able to recognize when you are on an island is really important. Like for me, nobody to your point about like, nobody's going to save me. Nobody's going to come and be like, join our community. You really need this. Like you. You know, there's a lot of people who are like, well, I'm all alone. And I'm like, but are you seeking it? And so that's the thing is, I think it's harder as we get older, especially if you're an introvert, to, like, go out and make friends in the world. But but it's really, really important. And Lynette will share more about the why of that. But for me, you know, it was the thing that saved me was the fact that I had like 2 or 3 people I could text on those days who were like, you're okay, you're okay. Like, stay here. Like, stay in this. And, you know, so if you don't have those people yet, please know that they're like in this room right now and they want to know you, but you also have to step forward and say, like, I want to be in community. I want to be a part of a community. You can't just, like, wait for it to show up on your doorstep. Lynette Oss Connell: [00:26:41] Agreed. When I. Got when I was divorced from my first husband. In that event, I lost my entire support system. I lost all my friends. And so I went from that into starting my firm and I. So when I was struggling with my personal life and my firm, I had no support system and I did not go out and search for it. And I will say that that is probably the number one, the number one thing, when I look back, it wasn't what was going on around me, it was that I didn't have. I didn't have support. And I tell people now, burnout has a universal individual, two sides of the same coin. It's universal in the sense that anybody can experience burnout because it's chronic stress. Anyone can be susceptible to getting there with something in your life, but it's individual in the sense that your tolerance for stress in a particular area, or your tolerance for stress in a particular area is going to be different than mine. And so when we are vulnerable for all of us to understand the fact that that is where we need to step in and say, I understand what you're feeling, not in this moment, but I've been there too. And the empathy component put into practical use to say, Blake, what do you need from me right now? And to actually step in and don't be afraid to ask, how can I help you? Because if we start to set that example, other people in our community will start to do that as well. And when I was super burnt out, I was under a rock. I like to say like I spent years not being in community. And it's when I started being in community again that I felt so much more clarity about who I was, because I can say Blake has these skills and diamond has these skills. And and then I begin to see who I am. Better. Because I see who you are, right? Blake Oliver: [00:28:31] And you realize that everyone is struggling? Lynette Oss Connell: [00:28:34] Yes. Blake Oliver: [00:28:34] Like, there is not a single firm owner. Accountant. There's nobody that I've met that has it all figured out. I've talked to a lot of people at this point, and, um, so it's okay to admit that it's hard and you don't know what you're doing. I didn't, and it's actually something that's been kind of liberating for me with, you know, earmark, which is my second business that I started that's different than my firm is just I talk to my employees when I feel stressed out and it's okay. You don't have to be like the perfect, you know, boss that has it all figured out. And actually, they really appreciate it when I'm honest. And it like, makes everything everything's better. It's it's strange. Madeline Reeves: [00:29:21] My my team got a lot of this from me this week. You know, planning an event across six cities. Kind of an insane thing to do. And and like, I do this really weird one where I'll make, like, a very like, like a guttural noise and I'm like, this is not about you. This is just me getting it out of my body like that. It's it's good for my nervous system. If I hold this in, it's going to come out worse later. Um, or, you know, the other thing that I, I don't do anymore is hold my reaction in. There were so many times where I was worried that people would code me. I'm going to swear as a bitch for being angry, or for being assertive, or for having a reaction to somebody's underperformance that I was just being the nice boss all the time. And that's really hard on your nervous system. And so, you know, I've had moments with my team where I'm like, I am really upset right now. It's not at you. It's at this circumstance I'm really disappointed with. You know, it's like we're parents in this room, right? You're like, it's about your behavior. It's not about you, you know? But like, having those moments with your team where you can be a human and show your emotion and not do it in a way that's weaponized and not do it in a way that's going to harm other people. But just owning the fact that, like, I'm up here. There's a lot of pressure on these shoulders and like, I'm also a person. Lynette Oss Connell: [00:30:35] Mhm. Yeah. Blake Oliver: [00:30:37] Lynette Madeline, thank you so much for joining me today. It was great talking with you about about burnout. And I learned a lot, so thanks. Madeline Reeves: [00:30:44] Thank you Blake. Lynette Oss Connell: [00:30:45] Thanks, Blake. Thanks, Madeline.