Latest / Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman / Jordan Wilkins on Military Blast Exposure, Brain Trauma, TMS and Veteran Mental Health | Broken Brains Ep. 112

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Jordan Wilkins on Military Blast Exposure, Brain Trauma, TMS and Veteran Mental Health | Broken Brains Ep. 112 · Broken Brains with Bruce Parkman

• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: Hey folks, Bruce Parkman here with another episode of Broken Brains, the official podcast of the Mack Parkman Foundation, where we look at the issue of repetitive brain trauma from two aspects: repetitive head impacts from contact sports and military service, as well as repetitive blast exposure, primarily for military service.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: And what these conditions are doing to the brains, the futures, and the mental well-being of our children, our parents, and our athletes.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Why is this important?
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the connection between repetitive brain trauma, damaged brains, and mental health is not taught in any medical, nursing, or psychological course in this country, which makes you the front line of defense in this issue.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we we go out there and bring the most amazing guests on this show.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: So you can learn of this from the treatment aspect, the diagnosis aspect, access, legislation, whatever we got, we can find people to talk on it for, because you need to be informed.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Today we have another powerful guest, Jordan Wilkins, PA Das C.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: So he's a physician assistant, which is good.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: I can spell that.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: He is a retired U.S.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Navy Physicians Associate, former Marshall Corpsman, special operations medic and combat veteran.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: During his military career, Jordan served with the 2nd Marine Special Operations Battalion and completed multiple combat deployments to Afghanistan, providing trauma care in austere operational environments.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Jordan later graduated from the military's physician assistance training program through the University of Nebraska's Medical Center, where he was inducted into the Phi Alpha Honor Society.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: Ah man, we got some fraternity stories there.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Today his work focuses on combat training, PTSD, and veteran health through a holistic approach drawing from both his clinical training and first-hand experience in special operations.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Jordan brings a unique perspective to the intersection of psychological trauma, brain health, combat exposure, and the long-term challenges that face our veterans after service.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Jordan, welcome to the show, sir.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: How are you doing?
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Good.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me, Bruce.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: No problem, man.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Love to have you on the show, bro.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: This is awesome, man.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, man.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you're one of our Marsok guys, man.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: You're in MSaba.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, yeah.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, I'm gonna go.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, man.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: I helped build that whole MarsOc thing with my first company back in the day.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: I got a call.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you have a new Colonel Jackle tool.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: That colonel calls me up one day and he goes, I heard you run the training at Fort Bragg for Special Forces.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: I go, I do, sir.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, I need your ass at Camp with June now.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: I go, who are you?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, We've just been told by USOCOM to stand up the Mars Oc.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: We got a bunch of money, and I need somebody who knows what he's doing.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I went out there and uh we ended up building most of the training contracts to start the MarsOc back then.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, you guys rocked, man.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: It was a lot of fun working with you, Matt.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: So good.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: It was good.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, tell us how you ended up there, man.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Where are you from?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: How'd you get going?
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Did you did you join as a special operations guy or what?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, how'd you get how'd you get over there?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so um basically I enlisted, you know, from through the Seattle maps.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I was from Washington State.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: And through that process, like I'm a big dude that like researches everything I do before I make any major decisions.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so, of course, you know, I I knew about the Fort Briggs schoolhouse, and I was like, hey, I want to be a special operations medic.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I talked to the Marines and they were like, hey, our medics come from the Navy, so go talk to them.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: And of course, everybody that wants to go into the Navy who's a dude wants to be a Navy SEAL.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so essentially, yeah, I think I told this story before, but I talked to the Navy recruiter and I was like, hey, if I make it through BUDS, SQT, like all that stuff first time, no rollbacks, nothing, can you guarantee me in writing that I'll be a medic and not like a com dude or intel dude or whatever else?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: And he's like, no.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: So essentially I went into the Navy um uh as a corpsman, and I was like, I'll you know, make my way there.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um throughout that time, I met a bunch of SEALs and then I met and got introduced to some recon, force recon guys.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, Marsak wasn't really a thing back then yet.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um they'd just done like debt one and that kind of stuff, um, but it wasn't really like well known at all.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: So uh the more I learned about the recon, the force recon guys, and and how professional and knowledgeable and everything they were, I was like, you know what?
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just I'm gonna cross out buds and and I'm gonna go to the recon corman pipeline.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean that whole process ended up taking about uh two and a half years or so.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then me and my buddy were the only two out of our class that made it through without getting rolled back or anything.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: So they were like, hey, we happen to have two sets of orders going to 2nd MSOB, Marine Special Operations Battalion, you know, now known as 2nd Raider Battalion at the time.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: And they're like, Do you want them?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, Yeah, absolutely.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: So um that's what kind of got us there.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it was you know, you go through this training pipeline, and the whole time, you know, for almost two and a half years, they're like, This is just the basics, just the basics, you know, like wait till you get to a team.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: And man, you at the time you're like, this seems like a lot for the basics, you know.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um well, you get to a team, and man, that learning curve is is steep.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: So it was um definitely a process going through that and kind of jumping right to Mars Oc instead of going through like marine recon, force recon plutons, things like that.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: Did you get any additional training when you after you know, after you became a corpsman before or during uh Marsock, did they require their medics to go through any other additional training?
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, like we have the 18 Delta course and uh and special operated special forces.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: So uh what do they have anything equivalent to that, or do you guys go through that course?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: We go through 18 Delta, yep.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Nice course.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: We're right next to the Green Berets, same class, um, doing the exact same stuff.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: They just call it, you know, they call it special operations independent duty corpsman.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it it's literally the same exact course.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Nice, man.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know that.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: So you went down to was it still is it still run down to Sam Houston back in the day?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: I bet sure it was back in the day.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's all at bragging.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: Back in the day, it was Sam Houston.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's at break.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, it's a good brake.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Cool, guys.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: Good for you, yeah.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean it's a bad, it's that's that's you know, tough training, man.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, uh before I went to El Salvador, I don't know, are they still using goats?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if we can talk about that, but uh yeah, I went through I had that when I was going and I got I got my orders to the war uh in El Salvador, I had some buddies over there, I go, hey man, I need some medical training because I don't I don't know what the nigga come on in.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I went through the the goat portion.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I've learned a lot, man.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh people don't understand really uh you know what you know that uh the that that type of uh training entails and how knowledgeable uh you guys are and need to be, right?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, when I mean you've done you know tours in Afghanistan, I'm sure that and did you do any other tours like uh we used to call them med ready's and JSATs and stuff like that, where you know in other countries basically you're more trained than other doctors in the area, right?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I didn't do any JSATS, I did three combat tours to Afghanistan.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um I did one, I guess you could call it a deployment uh as a PA to Australia.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: So it was more of a vacation than API.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that don't count.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: Australia, yeah.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: Send me, right?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: I love that place, man.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, no J sets.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um just Afghan over and over again.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: So three tours in Afghanistan, bro.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's a lot of tours, man.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Were you uh a corpsman for the whole time, or did you go as a PA as well?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: Nope, uh Corpsman the whole time.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I didn't become a PA until I was about I didn't commission until I was about 14 years in to my enlistment.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: So cool.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: So what I mean, what's it like being a marine raider on a Afghanistan deployment, man?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um I mean, it was looking back at it was some of the best of times and some of the worst of times, you know.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like we saw everything.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: I as a medical provider saw everything from you know severe trauma to you know taking care of kids, you know, little Afghan kids, um, to like helping out and deworming the local sheep or goat population.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was such a huge variety of things.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: On top of that, we were essentially, you know, we rode around on motorcycles, you know, training the Afghan locals and fighting Taliban.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: So man, taking a motorcycle out of that space, man, that's that's pretty badass, dude.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it was a good time.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I mean, we found riding motorcycles was it was a very good IED uh avoidance mechanism because you know they're not gonna put IEDs on you know the goat trails and things that people that the locals use.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um they'll put IEDs in the main roads and things like that, but they're not gonna try to set up all these IDs and blow people up when you know it's kind of off of the beaten path and we can take the motorcycles there.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Dude, that that's a great idea.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, people understand how we improvise in combat, right?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: How we just make things happen, especially when you don't have a bunch of damn officers looking at you every five seconds, right?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: You can make some stuff happen when them always ain't worried about their career, right?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, that's good, man.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome, man.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: The um explain to our audience um a little bit about you know being a a special operations medic.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean uh the skills that you have, from I mean, literally surgical skills to delivering babies, I mean, uh dental work.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, talk a little bit about this because people do not have a clue at what a a special operations medic is actually capable of doing.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so, I mean, the way that we're designed is we're supposed to have two special operations medics on every team.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so the idea behind that is that we have the capability in the middle of nowhere, remote location, and a tent in Afghanistan to conduct like major surgery, so like amputations, debridments that we can put people under general anesthesia.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: So one will work as uh the anesthesiologist, and one will work as the surgeon.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we do all the basic, you know, kind of cradle to grave sickhole type stuff, sniffles.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um had sniffles.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Haven't heard that one in a while, bro.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: Had some guys that needed to get dewormed while we're in Afghanistan.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I mean, we see everything from babies to the elderly and everything in between.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so we have to be ready and prepared for that.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it is completely unlike any medical specialty um except in that special operations world.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's very, very unique.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you know, coming back stateside, getting trained as a PA and that kind of stuff, and talking to doctors and telling them kind of my experiences, because I've, you know, I assisted in doing an amputation in Afghanistan of an arm.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I've done all these things and they're just like mind-blown because you know, they come and they do family practice or they do surgery or they do neurology, and like that's what they do, and that's it.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: Being able to do these entirely different things from suturing to major surgeries to, you know, just taking care of people on a daily basis, um, and making sure that they're healthy and preventative medicine and animal husbandry and animal medicine.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: And we're looking at labs, we're looking at x-rays, we're doing all of the things because, you know, really we don't have any other choice.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's like we're the only ones there in the middle of nowhere, um, taking care of our team and then also taking care of the local population.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Heck, you're the only guys with medical swabs and and syringes at everybody else's.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have seen amazing things, man.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, hello.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think one day we must have dewormed about a thousand children in the middle of the Amazon basin somewhere.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: I get the little worm bellies are like, come over here.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: I love kids, man.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just jamming them, right?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, yeah, that's uh uh the 18 deltas are just mind-blowing and what they have to learn and then what they've done, man, especially in combat, bro.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's by the time, you know, we've got to get these guys stable and get them, you know, in the in the lift, right?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: And get them to the hospital, what you have to perform on the field is it is just it is just nuts.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, um, so and then when did you become a PA?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: So that was after you so I did the three deployments with Marsock.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: They kept out offering me money to redeploy, and so I was like, yeah, let's go.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh money makes money money talks a lot to an NCO, bro.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know I'll go to combat.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you're gonna pay me, I'll go to combat in the war.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, at that point, um, I had a wife and two kids at the time, and apparently for some unknown reason, they like having me around.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't blame them.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um I ended up taking an instructor position and you know, screening the new recon corpsman going through the pipeline and training them and that kind of stuff.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so at that point, it was like I was like 11 years, maybe 12 years in.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was kind of like that point where you're like, okay, am I gonna make a career out of this or am I not?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so essentially, with family not wanting me to deploy as much, I looked at PA because that's the easiest, like closest, you know, step up.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so I applied for the military program.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: I was thinking, you know, because some people apply to that program and it takes them four or five years to be able to actually get in.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I was like, hey, if if I apply to that program and I get it, great.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: If I don't get it, I'll get out and you know, be a PA civilian side.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that was kind of the transition point for me.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: I ended up getting picked up the first time I applied, so that's the route I went.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about, you know, let's start talking about some of the the you know the post-career stuff that you went through, you know, when it when it's when we start talking about veteran care out here, especially in regards to brain trauma and your professional opinion, all right.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to us about blast exposure.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, we're now aware that everything that we did in the military, right?
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I'm a I'm a pre-9-11 guy, right?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: I retired in early 01.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have a suicide problem in my generation.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I've told this story before.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: The only guy I know that's taken his life was a master breacher for his entire career, only validating, right?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: But since 9-11, okay, uh, we know that shooting bullets, grenades, machine guns, being around mortars, right, all this stuff, artillery, right, all cause blasts.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Then if you look at the impact of our jobs, whether you Marines are beating each other with up with sticks, or now we have, you know, we have uh, you know, uh an MMR, or what do you call it, the MMA ring everywhere.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's just punching each other in the head, you know, you start throwing that on.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, why do we have this problem that with from a just from a physiological perspective, in your opinion, from you know, all the training that Marines do, whether it's you know blast or repetitive impact, because there's a lot of it.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: There is a lot of it.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's interesting for me because I've seen it both from the provider aspect and you know, in myself, you know, shooting Carl G's all day, and you end up having this massive headache and puking afterwards and seeing double vision and all that kind of stuff, being exposed to blasts.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: But it was cool, right?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it was great.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's the problem.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's the problem.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, ah, I got a headbow.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Man, I shot like 50 of those things, right?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, I got it, right?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we see it like you were talking about a lot in breachers and things like that.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, the breachers only right up front, like everybody else is still there in the stack waiting on the breacher, um, and gets exposed to all that last um firing weapons, doing repetit, even in training, right?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like repetitive uh shooting packages and breaching packages and all these different things that we, you know, think are just normal to have this massive headache at the end of the day, you know, you do 18 hours of shooting, you know, day into nighttime with nods and everything, and massive headache, and just go back and do it the next day.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: There's so much just inflammation that happens in the brain, and there's no time to recover from it.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: So even in, you know, some of the patients I see here in 29 Palms, um, you know, they don't have that much exposure, but even the exposure that they have is not dealt with appropriately.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: So it tends to not, um, they tend not to allow themselves or their command tends not to allow like a rest and recovery period for your brain to kind of decrease that inflammation because it, I mean, the human body is amazing and will heal if we give it some time, but we just keep doing it over and over and over again, repetitive, to the point where we can't recover anymore from it.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and so, you know, when we do have that amount of blast, I mean, now there is times like in Afghanistan, you can't control for that.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: You got to leave it on the field.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's why we train, that's why we wear uniforms, and you know, that's why the VA is supposed to take care of us when we're done, right?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, we got hurt, but it was a lot of fun, right?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like shooting those Carl Gustavs, right?
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but you know, you talked about it impacting yourself, you know, like in my me, myself, even though I was a not a uh um a post-9-11 guy, you know, being an SF guy, you know, got shot in the face in a training accident, and then playing all army rugby all those years, plus shooting everything in the world, you know, I had I still ended up by all my own my own issues, but they weren't when I was in and when I immediately retired.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: It took me till I was in my late 50s, actually early 60s, before I started having my or recognizing that my angry ass has been angry for years, but a lot of it had to do with you know what I had to do to really heal myself.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to us about you know your perspective from that, you know, you know, from I mean, talk you know, talk to us about your journey from that perspective.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because obviously, you know, you weren't just some medic sitting around doing snipples at the TMC.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: You're out there in the stack, you're out there in the field, you're out there in combat.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously you you had you know quite a bit of exposure.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I mean, even from before I went to combat, um, you know, I had a concussion from airborne school, you know, um, or I ended up with uh you know underwater and not having enough breath, passing out, that kind of stuff.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's funny how you can't breathe water, right?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh, dude, I've got a hilarious story about some forced recon guys I'll tell you, but go ahead.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: Keep talking about that.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean, I I had multiples of these things even before combat, and then you go to combat and all the Carl G's and all the explosions, you know, we had mass casualty incidents and we had all these different things that I'm doing.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Talk about a mass casualty incident to our to our audience, please.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so mass casualty essentially just means you have more patients in front of you than you have the equipment or personnel to deal with, right?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so um I kind of went into details with it on on Denny's podcast a little bit, you know, a week or two ago.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but essentially I had it was and this is probably the TBIs talking, but I can't remember if it was eight or ten patients.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I had enough patients that my medical kit, you know, had to reuse a couple things sometimes.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um so treating all those patients, getting them out of there, all that kind of stuff, um was my responsibility as really the the sole medic in that location.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: There were two other medics on the mission, uh, but they were kind of Separated by location.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so essentially it was once all the patients got consolidated, it was like me doing everything for that and relying on my marines and how I trained them.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: So that's essentially um the mass casualty incident.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um sorry, what was the previous question to that?
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: Hey man, I was gonna ask you, dude.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we both got busted up brains.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about how you can't breathe water.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I think um, you know, uh, you were talking about your um um your your concussive and teaching experience and and kind of my journey.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: So for me and looking back, this kind of what I think happened, right?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: After all those injuries, you know, I I continued to um be in like a high op tempo.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: So it was either I was training people at a high op tempo or I was going through PA school and it was a high op tempo, and I had to, you know, get stuff done.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it was just compensating, compensating, compensating with my brain and my body.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so after I got done with my first tour as a PA, I was with um Victor 37 here in 29 Palms, which is uh infantry battalion.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I got switched over to my first ever like legitimate Navy command.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_02: I was still seeing Marines, um, but it was, you know, it was I was just seeing clinic patients, and like that's all I was doing, right?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I think at that point is when my body and my brain were like, okay, we've been compensating enough.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: Now's the time to rest.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it just all the symptoms kind of came together in that kind of short period, you know, over a couple months, um, to the point where I ended up going uh to the TBI clinic, the Intrepid Spirit in Camp Pendleton.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: I did that, and then um just had all these issues and talking to my wife, you know, like losing my memory and having difficulty keeping conversations, um, and I'd start stuttering and all these different issues.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, even at the time, my my testosterone tanked to like 100.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: I don't remember the exact number, but it was somewhere around a hundred.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so all these issues started coming up, and my blood pressure was up at like 180 over 120.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so all these issues kind of stemmed from different injuries in the past that I think my body was just kind of compensating for for so long, and finally it was like, okay, we have a rest period, like time to stop compensating.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that's kind of when everything came out.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: That was about three-ish years ago.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, from there, due to all that stuff, due to me going, it's a six-week program for Intrepid Spirit, and it's a great program.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um the really the selling point from the uh commanding officer that runs it is like they their providers give a shit.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's that's their selling point, and it reigns true 100%.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like those providers that are there, they care about every single patient that comes in, and they fortunately have the time to be able to address so many of the concerns.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: But the thing with it is it's everything I learned there was great as far as like a coping mechanism, but there's no ability to really like you're not gonna go back and fix all the repetitive TBIs and things like that.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I had a great experience there, but and that's one of the points.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: I want to hold you there for a second, if you're fine.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, I've I've talked to people, you know, that have been through the Nico, that have been through Home Base, that have been through the Avalon series, right?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: The polytrauma clinics.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: And look, there's nothing better to go through that that's gonna validate the part that you got a brain problem, right?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna absolutely validate that, man.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: And and and they're gonna do some things to help you out, whether it's like the coping mechanism.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: You got some therapy, art therapy, music therapy, you get a dog, whatever.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, you're still on medication sometimes to these things, right?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: But what are they doing to heal the brain?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's my my question.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: And some of them are experimenting a little bit.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, we've had this problem around for a while now.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, was there and I've been to the Intrepid Center because before that they were, well, you know, that they've kind of evolved into the the TBI thing because that's the folks.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: But back when I went there, that's where we set, you know, our most horrendously wounded men and women to survive and get back on their feet.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, don't get me wrong, Intrepid, all these centers are amazing places.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: But when we start talking about, you know, we're not talking about, you know, men and women that are double amputees or have, you know, you know, you know, we're talking about men and women with a brain problem.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: And there are, you know, modalities out there that can affect them that I'm I'm not seeing a large amount of those being offered right now, and for different reasons that we could talk about in some of these cents and some of these centers, unfortunately.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: What what could what could what did you go through there that would have helped, you know, if anything, help start to address the problem that you have an injury, uh, you know, a bio, a phraseological industry, injury injury.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um so you're talking about like healing the brain.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: Right, like TMS, H bot, you know, and you know, molecular hydrogen, uh supplementation, stelic ganglion blocks, you know, I know the ketamine, whatever it is, was there, you know, the any any parallel, you know, healing modality offered during that.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that they treat both the mental illness or that the the you know the origins of mental illness, you know, with anything to help heal the brain, I guess.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um really, I felt because I mean they had a psych there and prescribing him meds and all that kind of stuff.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I felt like a lot of it was just um really like coping mechanisms.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: Textbooks.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you're you have this injury now for the rest of your life.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um this is your new normal.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: Hate that.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: That is not the new normal, dude.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is not the new normal.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's that is bullshit.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's a cop out, and and and and I'm um I'm done with this, man.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry, I get a little emotional about this because you know, this is what we hear over and over again from people, you know, and that's what I was told they didn't know what was wrong with me until I went to the BA and I said, I think I got a brain issue.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: They said, Why that?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Well, I'm pretty educated in this now, and this is why.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and and and turns out that I had to find my own path, but it all included modalities that aren't that are available, that do that do help, that there's evidence-backed, you know, evidence-backed evidence and reports and studies that saying these these modalities all the way through eyebogain, whatever.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: And and yet it's like, nah, man, this is your new normal.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, it's it doesn't have to be like that.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think for me was probably because what ended up happening, you know, after I did that is I I went through a med board process with the military.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I actually ended up getting medically retired at 19 years, three months, and 17 days, and that was about three months ago.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um so where I work now, I work at a TMS clinic clinic called Karma TMS here in 29 Palms, and I had never heard about TMS until I was getting out of the military medically retired.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that's one of the most frustrating things to me, both as a patient, but also as a provider.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like as a provider, I didn't know that we had this capability.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um you said we, the military or like the in the country, like that this actually existed.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: Both.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I'd vaguely heard about TMS, but nobody like it didn't it seemed like out of reach, almost to the point where it was like psychedelics and you have to go to Mexico and things like that.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um but then to find out, hey, we actually have in 29 Palms a clinic, you know, we have a couple of them actually in Palm Springs and Rancho Mirage and all over the place, but um, some of the VA facilities have them.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but nobody is really talking about it.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: And with TriCare, they present hurdles.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to do multiple medication trials and counseling and things like that to be able to qualify for them to pay for it.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: But are you saying, but the clinics they're they're commercial or civilian clinics, or they're actually on the military base?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: So we are off the military base, it's a civilian clinic.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, but I do know there are some VA facilities that have maybe like one TMS chair.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I can't remember if it's Loma Linda or um where it's at in Southern California.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it wow it just it frustrates me because one, I I did every type of therapy you could imagine prolonged exposure, EMDR, CBT, CPT, like all this different stuff.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um I did the stellar sorry, yeah, yeah, it's all this different stuff.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, keep going, man.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: I did the stellate ganglion block that didn't seem to do much of anything.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and nobody throughout the entire period, both me being a patient and myself as a provider, was like, hey, there's this TMS thing that actually works on like healing portions of the brain, increasing neuroplasticity, um, and helping you to function better on a daily basis.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the technology's been around for decades.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: So so so I mean, so what's what's your experience been with TMS, man?
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's been good.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm still doing it.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: So uh typically it's you know, the standard protocol is about 36 sessions, is what insureds is gonna pay for.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um people, you know, being a provider and talking to some of my patients, some people, day one, or like my sleep is better, you know, like everything is improved.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: Other people, like me, for example, it takes a little bit longer.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so initially my sleep didn't really improve very much, but I did notice increases in mood regulation.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: So like I would I'd stop at a stoplight in 29 Palms and I'd just start crying.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: I have no idea why, right?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not like thinking about anything, you know, that's super emotional.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not thinking about combat or anything like that, but it would just like randomly like show up, boom.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, that kind of started to decrease.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: My sleep has started to improve after a couple weeks.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and my I think my biggest thing was like my wife telling me that like, hey, you can remember conversations we had yesterday, whereas before, you know, you would have no idea what happened yesterday.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I I keep a log and that kind of stuff, bunch of notes, so that I can go back to it.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it it's not a um like a magic pill that automatically fixes everything.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's definitely still work that needs to be done and healing that needs to happen still.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's definitely a major improvement um from where I was before.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: So um so let's talk talk about TMS to our audience.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: What is it?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: A lot a lot of our folks haven't heard of it either, man, because uh you know it's it this is a treatment folks that's been around for a long time.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: So transcranial magnetic stimulation, uh TMS.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: So when we think of you know changing how the brain functions and healing it, um, a lot of times that's done with medication chemically, right?
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_02: So instead of using chemicals with the medication, antidepressants, all that kind of SSRIs, SNRIs, all the different variants, um, we use a it's a gentle magnetic pulse.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: And essentially what it does, because we've noticed different parts of the brain, specifically the DLPFC, which is the uh dorsilateral prefrontal cortex, is has decreased oxygenicity and decreased blood flow in depression.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, opposite kind of works for anxiety.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but we use these magnetic pulses to stimulate those portions of the brain to kind of wake them up, to get that blood flow going, to stimulate them a bit and increase that neuroplasticity so that those neurons can continue to kind of grow and um help heal the brain.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a lot of research done on this though.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it it's it's been I mean, in Europe, they're all over the place.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: And why do you why why why is this not I mean, we've had other TMS M E R T uh folks on the show.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in your opinion, you know, um, you know, yeah, obviously it's a benefit.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: Let me let me let me ask you this question.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Up until you tried TMS, what has the military or the VA or any medical provider provided you?
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not I'm not digging on the VA at all, I'm just trying to look at gaps in care.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: What had they what has happened, what has been offered to you as a brain injured patient that has helped you uh, you know, uh deal with you know the dysregulation and impacts of having an injured brain.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um so the two biggest things that they're gonna offer are drugs.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: And if one drug doesn't work, then we're gonna try 10 other drugs to see if they work and therapy.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, uh, and for a lot of veterans and active duty, it just it doesn't work, and the medications cause side effects.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um so those are the biggest things that are that are offered.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but most of the time, like if it's a legitimate injury, doesn't get to the point where it works well to a good like quality of life.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, I guess the what I've been told when I go to my VA provider, I say, all right, I've had a brain injury.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: What do you got?
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, I got drugs and therapy.
• 37:34
  unknown: Yep.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I go, what else?
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, I might be able to get you some Tai Chi.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's it.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, great.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, when we have an injured brain, we you cannot medically really, I mean, chemically induce plasticity, right?
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta the the brain needs, you know, feeding, it needs growth, and you know, and the only things that we know that really induce that plasticity are psychedelics right now, right?
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: And every and and and and modalities like that that are built, like TMS, that actually hit hit the brain, right?
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: They they you can't get to the brain.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other part is you cannot deal with the moral and spiritual trauma that needs to be processed by veterans through therapy and and you know these these chemicals.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: You cause war problems.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I heard this the other day from a guy named Dr.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: Billingson.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know this.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I used to be an instructor in the sear compound at Fort Breath.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: I had an IP switch on.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, oh man, I was a slapper, not a big boy then.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: Me and the bearded one, we would rage.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: And boy, if you were an officer, I've got me some back, man.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'll count on you.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, but you know, I I became very, you know, through that that experience, you know, very much aware of a lot of the POW work that we done.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because, you know, POWs from Vietnam actually built that course.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: It was Colonel Nick Rowe, uh, Dan Pritzer, and then we had, man, we had like uh four like Sante Raiders, like really badass guys that worked there.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I got told the other day, and this is true, that with all the POWs that we had in Vietnam, guess how many suicides there were among that POW population.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm guessing not a ton.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: None.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're talking about men in the most deplorable, depraved, like um, you know, just you know, beat down circumstances.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: Guess when the suicide started happening.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: G What?
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: When they got back.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_00: And they were starting, and they started prescribing them medications.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: What uh how's that?
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: And now here we are like just, you know, we have that, we kind of didn't have that knowledge.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: I never heard about it, but uh it kind of makes sense given what's happened since 9-11, where we had an mental health epidemic that still, outside of blast exposure, has not been adequately explained.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_00: We have been dealing with moral trauma for years.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, Americans have been killing a lot of people for a long time.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, is there a moral injury there?
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: No doubt.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've not had to take a life.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: I've been prepared to two times, and now I know that due to those circumstances, one was a child that walked up on me and bagged that.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, I know I could pull that trigger if I had to.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: And but I'm I'm kind of on, you know, I never had to, and thank God, because I, you know, that's something else I'd have to flip and deal with amongst all the other stuff I have to, right?
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, but you know, we processed that.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: But now you compound that with a brain injury and access to these drugs, like unlimited access.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you go to VA and ask for a pill for anything, and they'll give it to you.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: They don't, they do not, they are ruthless with uh prescribing these medications.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: And now all of a sudden, we got this epidemic of suicides.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_00: And what has changed?
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: We're still killing people, all right?
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: We've been killing people for a long time.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yet we never had this, I mean, we had you know suicides when the Vietnam vets you know came back, drugs, right?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: My generation, we didn't have a suicide problem.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't kill, I mean, we had Panama, we know some I was in the war in El Salvador for a while.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um but still, you know, we you we never heard suicides as you know being correlated with military service until 9-11.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: And what's changed?
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think that the only thing give me your opinion, the only thing has changed is because of the amount of training that we had to do and the amount of, I mean, Vietnam, you did one tour, two, if you were reckless, three, if you're crazy.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: I only know I only met a couple guys that did three tours.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: You done three tours as a normal military career.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: And you know there's other guys and women that have done a lot more, got it.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: A lot, some of them have done a lot less.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: But what has changed is the amount of blast exposure that you all have.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: When we look at suicides and mental health, it's all brain related, right?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: And what what else, what's what other denominator is there that can explain how we got to this point where, depending on your estimates, 120, 130,000, 160,000 veterans have taken their lives.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: How do we get there unless we we there's got to be something contributing it besides the medication, and there's got to be a reason for the medication to be given, that's mental health.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: What has changed that has impacted the brain?
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, sorry for the diatribe there.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: No, you're good.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I saw uh uh kind of a not a film, but like a little movie presentation type thing where you know there was a graph and essentially it had at the bottom the number of over time the number of Iraq and then Afghanistan, you know, deaths.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: But while those were at the bottom, skyrocketing was the number of suicides, right?
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: Up to 150, 160,000, just insane.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um and one of my first guys that you know ended up taking his life, he was on, I can't remember exactly.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to go back to that.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: One of the first guys you said that you knew to have taken his life.
• 43:20
  unknown: Yep.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: One of the first.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: I knew one.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I did 21 years in the army, and I I did, well, a bunch of contingency work.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, the the thing is, I I only knew one guy.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: You say in the first, and this is, I mean, this doesn't, this is not the first time, you know, of course, but still, for you to say as a young man, the first guy, I'm sorry, I just wanted to focus on that.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: So um he was on his, I want to say his seventh or eighth kind of back to back deployment.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he was a JTAC, you know, controlling aircraft and that kind of stuff.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but he was also, you know, on the team firing mortars, like doing all that kind of stuff.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um and really the biggest thing the biggest um consistent thing I've seen in everybody who has uh decided to end their life is um is a loss of hope and you know they feel like they're they're trapped in whatever situation they're in and there's no visible like sight out of it and that could be a combination of like legal issues or marriage troubles or combat or brain injury and all these different things are just compounding to the point where they've lost any hope for any happy life after after this.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well then they get told oh this is your new normal what kind of hope is that like hey just deal with a guy right there is no hope you're at the bottom of the barrel and they're saying there's no way up come on and and that's what gets me fired up is there is a way up and we see it over and over and over again with just access to TMS.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean how do you go through you're a physician's assistant you're a medical professional right and you know and here you are finding out after you get out that hey there's this crazy thing called TMS that's been around for a long time.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: All the modalities we're talking about whether they're psychedelics they're whether they're you know the technical modalities how I put it HP photobiomodulation contrast right stellate ganglion blocks the the brain supplementation programs they've been out there for a long time boss and we just would rather have dead kids than open up our eyes and make this shit available to you.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it drives me crazy that we cannot provide access to care that costs pennies on the dollar compared to all the money that's spent on therapy and drugs.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: Not that they're not you know when you've got acute needs you know you got suicidal ideation whatever you do you got drugs right you got to you got to stabilize people but it's not a it's not a lifetime it's not a it's not a lifetime of it's not a prophylactic for a you know a whole life.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah and I think well I mean one of the big issues is you know in the American medical system with insurance you know if you do TMS or you do ketamine or you do any of the other ibogaine or anything like that and you end up you know 50 60 70 90% better and you don't need to take medications anymore there's no profit in that you know what I mean like I mentioned I don't I don't want to be like a conspiracy theorist but like they're they're businesses you know even TRICARE is a business that's built on this um and they make medication and and that's why in order to get to TMS you have to do at least two trials for six weeks of two different classes of antidepressants to even be considered TMS.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah which I mean you don't have to be a doctor to put a helmet on a guy's flipping head right I mean you're talking about you need a doctor like you overseeing everything but we're talking about modalities we're talking to technology experts right now that can assess the brain with a computer scan.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: And you know one of them just won this massive contract to do DOW we're trying to get it out here so our veterans can take just computer tests and say oh shit I got to go see a neurologist.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: Now I know why I'm crazy or I'm angry or my wife hates me whatever that is right because to your point that it's not the only reason Ibogain is getting attention right now, we have iboga you can grind up that route dude you're gonna go on the I don't even know what I've been on IBogain.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: I've done it I've done everything I've done it all man done it all as re I did Ibogain as research.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't think I needed it and boy that thing put me I had a long way to go and it was the best thing I've ever done where I'm at right now.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: But but it was a long fight with myself right there's a whole nother story there.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: But to my point is we got iboga but how do you make money off tree bark bro right?
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh we got ayahuasca oh shit how do we make money off vines and leaves and that we gotta brew right and now they want to create the ayahuasca experience without purging or vomiting.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: Dude that's part of it bro you got to get rid of what you got to defecate sweat you get you got to get this stuff out and it comes up but you know to you know to your point it is about profit and the only thing about ibogain is that you can make it into a little pill right you can standardize it which okay I got it but you know what they don't like about ibogain is you only have to take it once okay and again what you're done right I mean it's for the most part most of our veterans go through that all the addictions ideation goes I mean it is amazing for on the outcome side and yes you have to be medically monitored there's a whole bunch of other stuff there you know to your point um you know what's your opinion on IBogain man it's all over the place now I mean old Trumpy signed stuff you know yeah I mean I a couple weeks ago I finally saw the In Waves and War documentary with Vets and Marcus Capone and DJ Shipley and all those dudes um and it it sounds amazing I have reservations with it personally just because some of those things seem really like they make it seem like it's spiritual um and so I have a pretty strong like Christian faith and so I don't know about that aspect of it and I'm definitely curious about it.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um but really that's my biggest reservation.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: But I dude I'll address that man I that medicine yeah good I was just gonna say I I've seen like the improvements that it has made and uh my teammates and like everybody um and it's it's definitely something you know a boy let's address that let's address that where does where does Ibogaine come from from the what the iboga right like what yeah what's it come from what's it it's it's what what what what kind of entity creates iboga a plant a tree right yeah who made trees god made trees so that's the way I look at all this stuff right this is God's medicine God put that here for us to use it is one of God's tools and I'm gonna tell you this I had been 95% in the Lord I in my whole life 95% whether it's God my marriage anything commitment special force 95% never get 100 I will gain 110 I mean my wife my marriage everything I am all in because that plant made me face myself and work through myself and understand that I do believe in it and that I am a man of faith and I better get my ass involved 100%.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that was the and and my my perspective and all this with the exception of ketamine which is a chemical these are medicines mushroom psilocybin right bufo frog venom who made the who made the frogs God so I look at it from the expectation God put these things here for us to use and if we can use them ethically and we're and we're in a controlled environment that's medically and morally this these are moral applications of God's technologies and God's tools to heal the brain that his creations have been screwing up right because we can't stop killing each other right but that's how from a Christian prosperity there is a lot of spiritual growth but a lot of it is very intensely personal from a universe and who created a universe God and so everything that that the whole thing is when they talk about spiritual growth on all psychedelics it is the work it is getting getting right with yourself forgiving yourself loving yourself getting rid of trauma understanding you know and and forgiving others that have hurt you there's a whole all this stuff it's it's it is the essence of Christianity it's all about getting to the foundation of love.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I know for me to start a talk all my buddies like oh my God what happened to Bruce Parker right so but that that is um that is a Christian's perspective on these medicines and that's why I take them with no reservation and yeah with ayahuasca they have a church and you know it's it's it's you know it's it's a it's it's a loophole let's say it right it's like peyote for the North American North Americans.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not really endorsing a church it's a way for them to be able to offer this medicine to veterans without having to go to Mexico right and and and and so yeah it's not you know this it I that that is my perspective you have your own Jordan I'm just saying that's that but that's um that was my outcome but the thing that made me right with the Lord like super right bro was was uh 44 hours I rolled with that thing.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: I broke the record I broke the record man I was like where does this stop?
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's crazy.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: But you know anyways um yeah I mean I do but whether it's you know whether it's TMS or Eibogame it's not available.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it is all about money.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: It is all about not doing the right and that's what bothers me people can make money.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: God has no problem with us making money.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: We're supposed to make money and do good things with it right what we're not supposed to do is deny people the right or the ability to heal because of money right money I'm sorry you're messing with my profit motive no we have 1300 dead kids that is unacceptable.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't care about your profit and I think you know you know we'll we'll you know we'll see what you know God has for these people down the line but it is immoral unethical and is absolutely horrible that you know that we're in this position and we have these ways of at least making it better.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: When you're told this is your new normal how would you like your new normal to be something you know not so normal, right?
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like how would you like to heal?
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah I think the healing is you know I that's a really good way to put it you know that you did from the Christian perspective.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_02: I never really talked to many guys that are legitimately Christian and have done ibogaine um so I mean definitely worth exploring.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I would man I mean well and and I'd say if you need it right I mean it's not it's not for you know everybody but it is I mean I went down there with no addiction issues at all actually I had almost stopped drinking and that was my big addition issue which was just more of a an attention getting issue I wasn't an alcoholic I just like to drink and be loud I was stupid right and I never grew up I people understand when you're in the army or the navy you don't have to grow up for 21 years just do what you're told you get a paycheck you could be a kid jump out of planes chase girls blow things up it's a wonderful life I loved it I'd do it all over again right so you know but uh you know the the um you know but it all comes back to you know taking you know taking care of ourselves and and and and and to take that jump into any of the psychedelics you know you you you're called to it once you understand that they are there for you to help and they are something that can help you we just did a study here on ketamine we provided 54 veterans ketamine with with mark Mark Gordon's brain supplementation the two of them already come back and said you saved my life how much of those two lives work and we did that on a hundred a$70,000 grant and now we're looking at buying the ketamine clinic and running it for free.
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: Nice you know because you know it's just not there.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it is another tool it's there's no pill and that's the other problem with this whole brain thing is everybody wants a pill.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well even with Ibogain you're gonna need therapy and integration and it might you know you still might need another psych a little bit of H Bot because it doesn't, you know you I've got some friends that have gone back at year four, year five, right?
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because they wanted to get back to being right they were drifting we're humans right we drift we get there and it's like ah we're gonna do that and then that way over here is like no I want it my wife's telling me I'm drinking too much all right and they go back down you know but there's other ways to get back to what right is which is you know healthy right that's what it is.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: So but I I think you're spot on man.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah dude uh you know this is amazing and I and I and I don't know uh do you have like a podcast or a book or anything like that?
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um no not really just Jordan Wilkins PA combat vet badass guy.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah just trying to you know do work and and make sure getting people are getting healed and you know what's your recommendations to our guys out there that are hurting man what do you think they should do don't give up on yourself I think um is a big thing because you know even going through for me going through Intrepid Spirit was great like I said and that I thought was like okay I'm taking care of myself I'm dealing with stuff but looking back to it you know talking about your new normal like don't be satisfied with that you know we operate at you know they like to say the tip of the spear right um but we even conventional forces operate at very high levels when compared to the rest of the general populace and we I think a lot of times we get complacent to the point where you know we're less worried about ourselves and we're more worried about everything else going on around us but man take that time to actually dig into yourself work on yourself um and heal yourself from all these things uh whether it's brain injury or you know things you've seen on deployment or toxic environments that you work in um taking that time to actually like dig in and be motivated enough to fix yourself so that you can then be strong enough to help others around you right especially for men leading a family you know taking care of your kids and your wife and showing them an example of like okay I've been through some stuff and I have issues but I'm taking care of myself so I can take care of you.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome man I mean because they need to hear it you you know you come in you know you make in the comeback yourself and and and you're on the road like we all are I mean I mean I've been working on myself for well spiritually and uh you know my brain for four years now and I'll I'll I'll get them in a lot better place and and I think you are too and I think those gentle words of guidance is exactly what our veterans need to need.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_00: You can't give up hope man and there are these tools and technologies out there.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you know I I want to thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your your your story with us.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah thanks for having me to me oh no love it man means a means a lot to me I I do got to tell you my force recon story right so I was okay go for it you got it you got to hear it so I'm in combat divers school right I'm in Key West Florida right I went through pre-scuber drowned a whole bunch of times I sucked I suck in the water I hate it that wasn't expected to finish right so these three force guys show up right and so you have to do you have to do uh several things in order to just be allowed in the school you got to swim 50 meters in uniform you got to tread water for two minutes and then I think you had to tie a knot so I can't remember.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we we all swim the 50 meters right anybody can do that right so we have to we have to tread water for two two minutes with your hands out of the water right just doing it.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: I had to go to a pool at night to learn how to do this because I had skinny legs how to do it.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we're doing it these three marines go they all jump in and they all drown.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_00: All of them shallow water blackout so they pull them out and we're treading water like who are these guys right we're just trying to stay alive you know just kind of trying to keep your air full right because we're all little mobs of muscle we have no fat.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: We don't float right storage they bring up we're watching this right because they they put the oxygen on they pop back and they got to tell you three times get in the pool get in the pool get in the pool.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not in the pool you're out right they go get the pool five they all jump in and they all drown again and we're and we're still kind of wondering like who are these guys right they're fire us so they pull them out and they had just jammed the air on them and they got up and they go separate they stuck they stop stop they said you have you had any training we're all treading water almost done they're like no they they just gave us some tickets and don't stop it's like holy cow man oh my God then we found out all three of them were forced recon guys they said hey wants to go to scuba school they're like I'll go you know yeah no training and so dude they said man come drink a beer with us tonight because you got big hearts but yeah you need to go get some training man but nah man well look uh I really really appreciate your time man this is amazing um and uh thank you and thank you for what you're doing for our veterans and uh I thank you for your recommendations to our guys and may God bless you on your journey and if you ever need anything you know you need uh you know let us know what we're talking about I just learned look up molecular hydrogen I just learned about this one too yeah yeah never heard about this one for the brain so check it out it's big in Japan no but I got one doctor here that does it and he's swearing by it and you can do your clinic could start offering this in a week just need to just need the right things.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah pretty amazing stuff from what I'm hearing so check that out but thank you so much Jordan and if you need anything man the Mac Parkman Foundation's here for you.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you brother buddy hey thank you bro all right folks another great episode man I love it when I get to laugh a little bit instead of being angry all the time man of of of uh of uh of broken brains man we are the official podcast of the Mac Parkman Foundation and one of the fastest growing podcasts on the brains so if you like us please spread the word around like us on Facebook Instagram Spotify Apple wherever you find us recommend us push us out there remember I wrote because my son's not here the only book for parents on these on the issues of contact sports and developing brains the book is for free it's on our website go get it I just spent six months updating the darn thing because now as Jordan I talked we now have hope there is hope we can find these kids we can heal them just like we can heal our veterans and that is for free so please go get the book our our app on the Apple store and the Google store HeadSmart the only app with repetitive impact information on it for your parents so for all of you that are on these journeys with brains we wish you all the luck in this world and all the love if you need anything please reach out to us and please remember your kids they only got one melon please take care of that we'll see you next time on Broken Brains and God bless you all.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_00: Take care