Latest / Art of the Question / How Did a Plumber Help Save Flydubai Flight 1073? - Prof. Shawn Pruchnicki - #60

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How Did a Plumber Help Save Flydubai Flight 1073? - Prof. Shawn Pruchnicki - #60 · Art of the Question

• Julius Moorman: Sean, thank you so much for coming on the show on such a short notice. ⁓ we're doing an emergency episode today about ⁓ the attempted hijacking of ⁓ flight Dubai. We're going to go through some flight data. I build a dashboard where we can ⁓ have a look and look from from minute to minute what's what's happening with ⁓ the plane. There's also a media tab, so we're going to be looking at some ⁓ videos and some photos ⁓ as well. ⁓ but before we do all that, I thought it would be good to do an introduction. And I can of course try to to introduce you, but you are much better equipped to introduce yourself than I am. So the floor is yours. I I appreciate that. And thank you for having me. I'm glad we gotta get a chance to sit down and ⁓ sit down and chance and ⁓ to talk about this. ⁓ yeah. I w I wish it would have been a a ⁓ nicer subject for our first time to ⁓ to work together. But my name is ⁓ Sean Pruchniki and I'm a ⁓ associate professor at the ⁓ the Ohio State University here in ⁓ Columbus, Ohio. And ⁓ I work in the College of Engineering, work in the aviation department, and over in integrative systems engineering. ⁓ so over there I work in ⁓ My specialty is cognitive engineering, automation design, advanced flight deck design. so I do aviation research in both areas, but also disaster research in in other areas. I have a background as an airline pilot as well, and also as an accident investigator, ⁓ where I still do some of that type of work. So that's kind of the short version of my C V that I think is most applicable to ⁓ to what we're gonna talk about today. Absolutely, absolutely. And thank you for that ⁓ wonderful introduction. I think you're ⁓ yeah, very well equipped to ⁓ to get into this discussion. I think ⁓ yeah, before we we dive into the data, ⁓ l last ⁓ week we we we heard this this incident on the news. ⁓ when did you first hear about it and and what were some of your initial thoughts as the the news and more details started pouring in? Well, actually I had the had the day off and I was ⁓ I was teaching and I took the rest of the day off. So it actually wasn't till the next day. And when I first heard about it, it was I it was very surprising because these are so rare. So my first reaction was you know I'm not it was it was someone at work told me about it. And I was thinking, ⁓ there's there's some information that has to be missing here because these are You know, these are so rare. This this can't quite be right. And, you know, we're missing some pieces here. So I I immediately got online and and you know, started reading and started pulling some information together and realized, you know, my God, that that is in fact exactly what ⁓ what is happening here, that this was an attempt at hijacking and ⁓ the co-pilot did apparently try to murder ⁓ you know, the captain and there was another pilot on board and passengers got involved. So ⁓ obviously a very dramatic situation ⁓ for multiple reasons. And you know, nine-11 aside, we haven't seen one of these types of events in a very long time, at least here in the States. I think the last time that something like this has happened, if memory serves, I haven't researched this, but if memory serves German wings, I believe, was the last time we saw. and aircraft, ⁓ suicide, homicide type situation where, you know, the first officer locked the captain out of the cockpit and intentionally crashed the airplane. So very rare events, ⁓ globally very rare events, but ⁓ this one much different than the the others that we've seen over the last sixty, seventy years, ⁓ for many reasons. Yeah, so such as ⁓ yeah, w what are what are some of ⁓ those those reasons? What is Interesting about this example and of course it's a it's a horrible tragedy. ⁓ luckily ⁓ the worst ⁓ was able to ⁓ they were able to divert ⁓ the worst ⁓ of it. The the plane didn't crash, it was able to land ⁓ safely, of course. But what makes this such a unique case? Well, first of all, that they that the individual was not successful, because if you look back historically, they usually are successful. when these events ⁓ happen, when these attempts happen, they usually are successful. ⁓ the fact that the individual was able to get a knife on board and able to do that. So that brings up security questions that, you know, that are all going to have to be looked into. And the fact that the the captain or somehow the cockpit door ⁓ was able to ⁓ to be opened. So now this enabled People from the cabin to get involved to help. Because you really have to wonder with the types of injuries the captain had, had that not happened, you really have to wonder if this would have had a much different outcome that we'd be talking about an actual fatal accident. Because without those people ⁓ you know, becoming involved, the other pilot, the passengers that got involved, that's one thing that I thought was quite remarkable about this. And I can't Think of another example where that happened, that we had folks from the back, you know, passengers too, that entered the flight deck and participated in ⁓ saving the airplane, you know, quite remarkable. ⁓ so those were the things that really jumped out at me at first. That, you know, the first news outlet that I read about that, I had to go read it a few more times at other places because I was thinking, you know, is is this really accurate? Is this You know, and then I found consistently this you know, this is what's being reported. and then of course, as more information was gathered over the next day, it turned out this, you know, was ⁓ very consistent. And then ⁓ passengers on board started, you know, coming forward and reporting, you know, I obviously I was there. I saw what happened, here's some video of it. And in fact, that's you know, that that is what happened. So I think those things, especially the passengers and having another pilot on board. Actually making entrance into the cockpit and getting involved with not only the offending person, the first officer, but also saving the airplane, helping fly the airplane and recover it, ⁓ quite phenomenal. Quite phenomenal. Yeah, it's a remarkable story for sure. And you mentioned there that of obviously they were able to enter into the cockpit because the door was opened, but ⁓ ⁓ how do you open the door to the cockpit? Is it only possible to open this door from inside the cockpit? Well, the as far as doors that we have in the States, yes. And I'm assuming that's the type of doors that they have as well. So all you know, if that's the case, then yes, that the captain must have been able to, as he was trying to fight this person off, was able to ⁓ and I and and of course I can't go into explaining how that's done, but was able to trigger or, you know, select the ability to open that door ⁓ that that had the presence of mind to I have to get this door opened because ⁓ I need some help up here. That, you know, even if I'm going to die. The only way that everyone's gonna survive is if I get this door open and we get some other people up here. so it was intentionally done. I'm sure the first officer who was trying to kill the captain, you'd stand the reason the first officer didn't open the door ⁓ by s by selecting and and going through that those steps. But ⁓ it would have had to have been the captain that that that did it. So that's amazing to have that presence of mind, right? ⁓ he's been, you know, severely injured. ⁓ fighting for control of the airplane, trying to fight this person off, and had the presence of mind of realizing I have to get this door open so people can come up here, even if I'm going to die. The only way this airplane's gonna be saved is by getting that door open so other folks can get up here. Yeah, ⁓ that's that's incredible. And and when you I I understand that you don't have an exact vision, but assuming the planes are similar to the ones that you are used ⁓ to flying and and what is used in the United States, ⁓ how is such a door open? Is it literally like the press of a button or is it like a two step verification or something to just open open the doors? Well I So let me just say this. It doesn't require both of them to like put in a special code. I'll I'll go as far as saying that. So it's, you know, it's not like on Star Trek where you saw that sometimes it required two, you know, two people on the bridge to put in their separate codes to make something happen. It's not like that, okay? There's there is you know, and I have to be careful, you know, I don't want to give you know, these you know, this information out, because, you know, obviously there could be people out there listening with ideologies where they, you know, might want to, you know, use airplanes as weapons again, that would love to know exactly how that works. Sure. No, I'm not looking forward to Yeah, but but what I am willing to say, that's probably not a surprise to anyone, is, you know, a single person up there can open the door that there is a ⁓ simple process for doing that, it does not take both of them to do that. So yeah, it's entirely feasible. The captain could have single-handedly opened the door with the, you know, there's a panel, and using that panel, ⁓ could have very easily opened that door by himself. So no, it it doesn't take both of them to You know, like on like on Star Trek to enter their special codes or whatever to do. No, no. I and I appreciate you being careful there. We don't wanna give ⁓ the right information to the wrong people, of course. Right. ⁓ but I was just curious to to what that would would l entail to to open ⁓ the doors. One of the interesting things as well is obviously ⁓ one of the passengers, a plumber ⁓ was able to go down and as the plane was nosediving able to to level the plane out again and after is my understanding at least and then afterwards ⁓ two Becca pilots took over and actually landed the plane ⁓ safely w is is it is is that what you've heard as well? I have heard that in several reports, yeah. And You know, the story kind of is changing a little bit. It's starting to settle down now. ⁓ and I and I think you're noticing the same thing that that seems to be the narrative that seems to be consistent now. And of course, you and I have both seen, you know, we you and I've both been in media for a long time, ⁓ and it and it could obviously still be wrong, but that seems to be the narrative that seems to be consistent here in the last 24 hours. So ⁓ yeah, that that seems to be. pretty consistent with what I'm hearing now that everyone is agreeing on people that are being interviewed, everyone seems to tell that same narrative. So it looks like that's probably what happened. You know, what's going to be very telling is the ⁓ listening to the Cockpit voice recorder. you know, when those boxes, ⁓ I'm I'm sure the boxes have already been pulled, ⁓ in in fact I'm sure they've already been listened to that ⁓ and those individuals have already been interviewed. ⁓ that that right there is already gonna lay out ⁓ you know for the investigators, you know, they already know. They've already interviewed those individuals, they've already listened to the C VR, ⁓ they've already built a timeline for how things unraveled in in in the cockpit. It's just a matter of time for them to finish the investigation, for them to be able to tell everyone, okay, this is exactly how it unfolded in the flight deck. This is who did what Like the plumber in the in the example you used and so forth. Yeah. And and the the the other pilot or pilots that were able to actually land the plane, so not the one not the the passenger that was able to to pull ⁓ the the the lever to to level the plane. is it is it common for for planes to have backup pilots ⁓ on board? No, it's not. You know, it's There was most of the time there there's one of two explanations. one the majority of pilots, around fifty percent or more, or at least here in the States, and I'm I'm sure it's true, you know, the friends that I have that fly for other carriers around the world, it's it's true there too. So probably the same with this airline that around fifty percent of the pilots actually do not live where their main base is. In other words, their main base is where all their trips start and end. They live someplace else. So they use the airlines, either their airline or other airlines, to get the work. So you could have had other pilots on board that were just using that ride to get somewhere to get the work for the next trip or They were doing what's called deadheading. In other words, the airline wanted them someplace to pick up a trip. So maybe some, maybe a pilot called in sick someplace where the airplane was going. And crew scheduling said, hey, look, I need you to get on this airplane. You're going as a passenger, fly to this city, and here's where you're going to pick up, you know, day two of this trip, because this pilot called in sick in that city. And we do that. and of course I guess there's the third option is sometimes we're on vacation and we're riding on board the airplanes. So it's not that, you know, for you know, for like transatlantic, you know, for the really long haul flights, yes, there are backup pilots because we have to have rest periods on all those types of things. But for for an airplane like this, no, you're not gonna have backup pilots. But you'd be surprised how many pilots are on board, sometimes in uniform and sometimes not in uniform. ⁓ I've traveled a lot in both. And ⁓ you'd be surprised sometimes how many how many pilots are on board that that you have no idea that are there for one of those three reasons. Yeah, it's literally ⁓ what ⁓ in catch me if you can, right? ⁓ as yeah, that that's one of the tricks that was used to ⁓ kind of hitch rights on on those ⁓ several airplane plane rights. It's how the protagonist came ⁓ went w went from a A to B. And ⁓ it's it's good that they were were were there because I've seen a video of ⁓ you know how men are usually pretty confident. So they are ⁓ there's this video where where regular guys are asked on the street, do you think that you could land an airplane if something goes bad with the pilot ⁓ for some reason? And all the guys in the video are like, Yeah, for sure I could land that airplane and and then they get br brought into the simulator right away and then they actually have to land ⁓ the airplane and it's like a ⁓ complete simulator like the whole the whole shebang and almost nobody was actually able to to land that plane safely so ⁓ but of course the the maneuver that was done during that nose dive as it was happening also quite impressive if you have zero skills flying an airplane and then you're able to to even level it out, right? Yeah. You know, absolutely. You know, first of all, you're exactly right about the overconfidence. You know, I I remember from, you know, p as part of my PhD, we take a lot of psychology classes because my PhD is in ⁓ cognitive engineering. And as human beings, we're ⁓ terribly overconfident. And you're exactly right, especially ⁓ males. ⁓ we we think we're much better at everything than we actually are. So ⁓ I've seen some of those studies that you're talking about. And you're exactly right. We put them in the sim and they crash every time. ⁓ However, you bring up a very good point because what was done was not easy to do. And the reason that I say that is, you know, there's a lot of listeners that people would think, well, how how hard could it be? You just pull back and the nose comes up, and you know, it's pretty straightforward. But here's the challenge that a lot of people do not realize. This is where be because of the velocity of that aircraft, you know, and the rate, that descent rate, this is where it would be very easy to overstress the aircraft and have structural failure depending on the rate that you pull the nose up. And all pilots listening know this. So, you know, an airline pilot up there would be very aware of this. trying to regain control of an airplane going down that fast, that weight of descent and that velocity, you have to be very gentle how quickly you pull the nose up. Because if you yank it up too quick, you're going to break the airplane. So it's amazing that this individual, ⁓ I I don't know if they just got lucky and did it right or or what the reason was, you know, part of it might have been There would have been a serious load on the yoke. So it would have been difficult to pull it back. That might have worked in his favor. Or maybe he spent a lot of time on flight simulator or something and has thousands of hours flying the airplane on flight simulator. I don't know. But ⁓ that's why it was you know, impressive or went so well from them because that's the point in time. that I realized as I read all this was, ⁓ my God, that is the moment where it really could have gone bad. Where someone could have grabbed that yoke, been terrified, understandably, a passenger not understanding really how to fly this airplane, grab that yoke and yank it back. And at those velocities and that descent rate, that's when you're most likely to break the airplane. ⁓ like a wing breaking off or the tail snapping off and Unfortunately now it's game over. Yeah. But he d but he didn't do that. Yeah, he didn't do that. No, it's it's it's crazy. And ⁓ obviously the the rudder came off. ⁓ we'll have a look at that picture ⁓ later. ⁓ but I think this would be a good moment to have a look at the flight data. So I was I was able to to download the the the actual flight data of Flight Radar twenty four, which is ⁓ the publicly available app that people can download on their phones and they can track all the all the flights that are currently happening and ⁓ they show some the pretty basic data, I would say, probably ⁓ from a professional perspective, quite basic. They show ⁓ GPS coordinates. ⁓ and they show altitude of course and they show the ground speed of the plane ⁓ at each moment in time. So it's a publicly available data set. And I built this dashboard in in Claude actually. It was very ⁓ impressive what it was able to do in such a short time. but you see if if we look ⁓ down here ⁓ you the the plane goes up and it stays level for for a long period of time, then it slightly moves up ⁓ at around four fifteen, four ten or something, and it remains at the same altitude for ⁓ about almost yeah one and a half hours, almost two hours. And then we get a zoomed in version of ⁓ of the data here as well. So right here you see a kind of goes up first slightly and then it it dips down, it enters into the nosedive. And this is interesting because according to ⁓ the public data, the the data looks kind of messed up in a way. It wasn't able to to give accurate readings during this exact time that the nosedive was happening. But we can kind of see where it goes down. And as as it goes down, you see the speed ramping up. Right. So at the very top it's like almost six hundred knots, which is like six hundred and eighty-eight miles an hour. And then right here we see that this is the first maneuver where the plane is ⁓ well I wouldn't say leveled because it goes back up almost immediately. but w if you're if if we're just looking at this this this data, what what what does it this tell you and ⁓ about the extreme stress that The airplane faced, but also the people inside of the airplane? So a couple of things to think about here. ⁓ The first thing is when we're talking about these excessive ⁓ pitch excursions and increase in speeds, that when we talk about structural engineering of aircraft, it's it's not always about the numbers that you achieve, but rather the rate that you achieve them. So in other words, if you quickly go from, and I'm just gonna pick some numbers here, you know, from 400 knots to 600 knots, but you do that fairly slowly, that is obviously completely different than going from 400 knots to 600 knots in three seconds, right? That's a completely different Mechanical load on the aircraft. So when we look at flight data, and that is when you look at something like this, and I have another one over here, that's why I'm looking over here. Yeah. is that, you know, look how quickly that peaks. that you do have a very, you know, and those coincide. That's another thing we look at is, you know, do they both make sense? And you see that you have the rapid increase in airspeed. and the rapid decrease in altitude. So those so those support each other. So now let me let me just go back and say one statement before we kind of start digging in this and into this a little bit more. That you you're exactly right. I mean, this this data is incredible. And I I play around with it and watch airplanes, you know, as well. When when my family's out flying around or my kids are on a trip someplace, I go online and watch them as well and and so forth. and We have to remember though, this is something called ADSB data. And it is not nearly as accurate as other data sources like what we would get from a flight data recorder. Right. I'm not I'm not saying that this didn't happen. What I'm saying is it does have limitations in how far it can read. in, you know, certain limits. So my only point is to the public in our discussion is we can look at this and it it it certainly tells us a lot, but as far as looking at the peaks and then going across and saying, well, that's the number that it reached, that we have to be careful of because that might not be the exact number. it could actually be lower than that, it could actually be higher than that. It's not That's accurate when you get into the extreme values. And I don't think a lot of people realize that because I know a lot of people around the world are downloading stuff like this and they're taking this for exact information. You know, like in this example, what are we? Ground speed 598. And they say, that's what they reached, 598. Well. You know, as an accident investigator, well, it might not be exactly 598. You know, it it could be off 75 miles per hour or so forth. So you have to consider your data source, what it's capable of. And sometimes computers ⁓ kind of fill in the blanks sometimes. ⁓ so yes, I believe this clearly shows, represents the struggles. It clearly shows a rapid decrease in altitude with corresponding increase in airspeed. And then of course there's the second ⁓ excursion, not nearly as bad as the first. Exact values, these might be pretty close. ⁓ but it's the flight data recorder that that's really going to give us a much better feel. Now let me add one more thing onto that. Yeah. And then ⁓ and then I'll quit talking for a second and let you talk. And this is something else a lot of people don't realize is even flight data recorders can do that. People think as accident investigators that we download the flight data recorders and sometimes we can get 800, 1,000 parameters. And even the flight data recorders, when we get those numbers and there's just a tremendous amount of information. Even those numbers, we do not take those as necessarily being You know, the you know, the holy grail, so to speak, the you know, that the exact precision, because we know that sometimes that those occasionally can be a little bit bogus from time to time. So even incredibly expensive computer, you know, equipment that's in these airplanes, even that can be a little suspect at times. ⁓ it's pretty darn accurate most of the time. But I have seen, and any accident investigator out there that's also done airline invest guess investigations has seen their share of flight data recorders that has looked and kind of you know seen some areas where it's like, I don't think we can trust those four seconds right there. That's a little goofy. ⁓ because nothing else supports that. so I think point take in is what I'm trying to make. ⁓ but clearly, clearly there were very significant excursions in airspeed and altitude ⁓ tremendous for this air. Yeah, and I'm so glad you brought that up too, because I I wanted to ask you, like how much will public data actually be able to tell us and and how much ⁓ would we have to wait for ⁓ black box information or or onboard systems to provide us with more accurate data because obviously This is I don't exactly know how Flight Raider twenty four acquires this data, but I'm sure it's it's accurate. Like you say, if you want to track a family member, hey, has sh has he or she landed yet, ⁓ completely fine and and general trajectory, but ⁓ probably not as accurate as some of the onboard systems. So I'm I'm very happy that you ⁓ made that made that clarification. Yeah, we yeah, we you know, there's obviously people all over the world that are kind of, you know Monday morning quarterbacking, as we say here is in the states that are setting back and self-proclaimed accident investigators and thinking I've got basically the flight data recorder, and I think you'd be further from the truth. In fact, you know, kind of a, you know, a real brief you know, kind of humorous story. I was in a meeting with ⁓ all of my folks over there that we do advanced flight deck design ⁓ for the FAA. And we were in one of those meetings. And my wife and daughter were on their way to Italy for two weeks. So I had flight tracker up and running while I'm in the meeting. And I'm watching them head into JFK. And this was this was before the DCA accident. And there was such a problem with runway incursions, with, you know, pilots pulling out in front of other jets on the runway and you have to do a go-around. And I'm, you know, participating in the meeting and I keep looking over and I, you know, I see them on short final and they get down to a hundred feet and all of a sudden I see them do a go around. And I'm just like, I look over and I'm like, holy crap. And everyone in the room is like, what? And I'm like, Nancy and Grace just did a go around at JFK. And and I knew the weather was good at JFK. So I knew it wasn't like, you know, the weather was low, they couldn't see the runway. I it was beautiful day, JFK. And I'm like, ⁓ God, what was that? Did someone pull out in front of them or you know, sometimes it's not so good to to know lots of things. ⁓ Yeah, no, it's it's kind of like ⁓ people who have ⁓ the well I have one, but those those devices that track your your health and then ⁓ if you had a bad night's sleep, then you you wake up and you look at it as like, ⁓ my god, my sleep score is terrible and now you feel terrible for the entire day. Whereas if you w ⁓ wouldn't have that data, you'd probably feel fine. So by God, you could bet I stopped paying attention to the meeting and I watched them come back around and land successively the second time. So I was like, Okay, all right. They got in the JFK. Thank thank God. no, but but I'm I'm glad you made you made that clarification. And I think it's important to to point out because obviously when when something like this happens, people like to speculate and ⁓ people pretend to be yeah, experts on on the stuff. but I think it is safe to say whether these numbers are whether they are all correct. I believe ⁓ this is what also like the the the gray area right here, this is why it indicated where the the data was too Too random to be accurate. So it kind of indicated that to be as a as an area of interest, or at least where we shouldn't trust it too much. But then here it looks looks better again. And and whether these are the actual speeds, whether it was lower, whether it was higher, I think it's safe to say that there was a huge amount of stress, not only on the airplane. ⁓ but also on the people inside of the plane, right? Because Dis will do some damage ⁓ non nonetheless. Absolutely. I mean, I'm I'm not saying it was off by two hundred knots or anything. I mean, this is all GPS driven. ADSB is all GPS driven. And there's various things that c you know can affect the accuracy. And, you know, and I just want to make it clear my caution isn't, you know, well, it says, you know, the peak was up to what? Almost ⁓ I'm sorry, I have to split. Six hundred off. Yeah, up to six hundred. I'm not saying it could have been really four fifty. I'm not saying it was off that much or anything. But we just have to be cautious and say, well, you know, it it it could be off some. but if we ballpark like if we just use these numbers as a ballpark and and and look at them through that lens with that important caveat in mind. Let's focus on the plane first, ⁓ and then we'll talk about people, what happens to them, ⁓ cognitively, physically, g forces in play, all that good stuff. I mean, the bottom line is you're exactly right, Joyce. That is serious. That is a very serious event. The exact numbers, ⁓ I'm not sure. Plus or minus what, fifty, plus or minus seventy five, you know, I don't know. That is a frightening tracing. Any way you look at it. Yeah. So what what happens when when a plane is exposed to forces like this? So what you know the the number one concern is that the airplane can become overstressed. And there's there's two concerns there is the well the ultimate concern is that you'll have structural failure and something important will come off the airplane. ⁓ the tail of the airplane can break off, which which has happened before in ⁓ aviation accidents where there's something else that causes the accident. And as the airplane is nosediving because of that event, on the way down the tail breaks off because of such a high speed descent. ⁓ But then there's also the concern is this airplane very well might be totaled, so to speak, because of the excess of forces. Because there could be lots of little cracks now in, you know, wing spars and other supporting structures deep within the airplane that they may not be able to find and prove that it's safe. And events like this, a lot of times they'll scrap the airplanes. They'll just say, the the forces were so high, we can't prove this airplane is safe to continue to meet safety margins. It's it's total. No, but it it did it did manage to to survive. I I wanna play a clip ⁓ that was on CNN and it was one of the ⁓ Aaron Murphy, his name is, he's a pilot, and CNN ⁓ interviewed him and they they're ⁓ he's with a colleague inside of a flight simulator and he has some comments about the data and I think he mentioned something that ties into what you said earlier about ⁓ the data. ⁓ but but I'll just play the clip and then I'll I'll I'll can hear your reaction. I I hope the audio is fine. Let's see if you can hear it. There we are with the fly to buy. That's the eight hundred model right there. And right there is the over speed warning. And I'm gonna just get my hand in here if I can and start pointing a little bit on the screen. If you can see my hand on the left side of that screen right there, there's the barber pole indicating the over speed. We're looking at nothing but ground on the primary flex display on the average indicator and the jet. You can take look in the center of your screen. That's approximately what we would have seen. We are now recovering at about eighteen, seventeen, sixty thousand feet. Perhaps a little more of a dive than the aircraft do today. I know there were some people they said they were sort of standing by the bathroom, right? They would have fallen immediately. I mean it frankly it's miraculous with something like that that that people people didn't get more seriously injured or die. ⁓ that's correct. I may have said the stick shaker, it's the over speed warning that's clicking away in the background, not the stick shaker. Stick shaker's at the other end of the spectrum where you're stalling the aircraft. So that is still going. We are just coming into about 500 knots. So some of the numbers that we're seeing from the reporting initially are they don't make sense to me because if you're descending that rapidly, the aircraft that's interesting. Cause that ⁓ the the the those I mean, I've as you point out, those are only the numbers that we have right now. But interesting that you said that that could have caused it to break apart and and that maybe some of those are are a little higher than actually happened. We do know there was damage on the rudder, right? From whatever the speeds actually will turn out to be. And portions of it apparently tore away during flight. Now, obviously with serious damage to the rudder, a plane's gonna crash. So when you just look at what we know here. How fortunate do you think it is that this plane was actually even able to safely land? Well, when I saw the images of the aircraft on the ground with the rudder section torn out, ⁓ I immediately had a cold chill because the amount of damage that that would cause to hydraulic systems, electrical systems, especially hydraulics, once you start ripping apart electronic or sorry, hydraulics, you start to bleed electronic fuel or Hydraulic fuel, excuse me, I'll get my words right here. And that would have affected other systems in the airplane. The saving grace on this one is at the vertical fin. So you'll see the vertical fin of the aircraft, and then the rudder is at the rear portion, the rear portion of that. That rudder was torn away. The vertical fin was what saved the day because that gave the aircraft directional stability. And I do not know how much longer they could have flown it after they landed. Because of the loss of hydraulic fluid due to the rudder being removed from the aircraft. Yeah. So one thing he says there is that I I think we're going to see some other data, ⁓ because based on what we know the the the plane would have disintegrated. Is is that what he w what does he mean by that, do you think? ⁓ obviously we can't look into his brain, but ⁓ i is that Probably in line with what you said earlier about the flight radar twenty-four not being entirely trustworthy here? Okay. First of all, airplanes when they're in a dive like this and they speed or they exceed their ⁓ maximum operating velocity or what we call VMO, and they eventually go beyond that limit, they do not you know, and maybe I'm nitpicking here, but In my line of work, you know, words matter. the the airplanes do not disintegrate. what what happens is some parts of the airplane might come off. Like the engines might come off, the entire tail section might come off. That's been seen before in airplanes that have, like I say, that have had other problems and have started to crash and on their way down. They gain so much velocity before they hit the ground, something will break off. that happens. But no, the airplanes do not disintegrate. They hit the ground basically whole, sometimes with a couple pieces missing, but they hit the ground basically whole. We'll go back to the conversation in just a second, but first I have an important announcement to make. If you've made it this far, I'm going to assume that you're enjoying the show. If you want to support the show, you can do so by leaving a like or a comment if you're watching on YouTube, or by rating the episode if you're listening on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. However, the single biggest thing you can do to support the show is by sharing it with someone you think might enjoy this episode. This could be a friend, it could be a family member, it could be a colleague. It doesn't really matter. If everyone who's currently listening to this episode would share it with just one person, the show would blow up in no time. Which also means that I could go full time. That means more episodes, it means better episodes, and it also means a happy host. So Please consider sharing the episode. It really helps me a lot. And I thank you. Now let's get back to talking. The third problem, what he said, is the rudder coming off, although that's a scary picture, and it certainly indicates the aircraft reached a a high velocity. But the the reason and Ninety-eight percent sure the reason. And I, you know, I all the aeronautical engineers out there listening, I'm willing to bet, dollars of donuts, they're gonna agree if they called in right now, is that rudder came off because of something called a flutter, rudder flutter. That when you get into high speeds, rudders will start to vibrate. And if you get too fast, you go too far past VMO, they can flutter so violently. That the rhetoric can actually rip off. And that's probably what happened here because the velocity was so high. And part B of that that's incorrect, you can land these airplanes without a rudder just fine. In fact, that's the beautiful thing about flying jets, is we really don't use the rudder unless we have an engine failure. If both engines are working, I mean that's the joke about, you know, all of us jet pilots is. We keep our feet flat on the floor because we don't need to use the rudder back in our propeller days. We used to fly propeller airplanes where you had to use the rudders. you don't really need the rudder in a normal operating with both engines going. If you have an engine failure, yes, you have to step on the rudder to keep the airplane flying straight. So, like for example, ⁓ emergency procedures. If if if you get a frozen rudder in a jet aircraft. That's just really not a big deal. As long as it freezes in the center, right? If it freezes all the way to the side, then the airplane's gonna want to fly sideways, then that could be a little more exciting. But if it freezes in the center, yeah, that's just, you know, kinda like who cares. ⁓ so there's lots I lots of problems with with what he said. Yeah. Well that's interesting. I mean that's that's that's the entire reason ⁓ I'm ⁓ I'm doing the show is we wanna get a better understanding of of what to make of everything ⁓ based on the data we have, right? I mean, I think that's one of the important ⁓ things ⁓ that it's also important what we cannot say ⁓ about this whole incident ⁓ without certain ⁓ certain data. I've I've done I've done so many shows with Brooke, Brooke Baldwin there and CNN called me twice this week and I I turned them down and I I wish I wouldn't have turned them down now. Yeah, no, I can imagine. ⁓ let's talk about the people inside of the airplane, right? Because we've we've discussed ⁓ what happens to the airplane. obviously we don't want to use the airplane anymore ⁓ after such an incident. It's better to have it grounded. I w I wouldn't feel quite safe in in that machine after it was tortured like that, but ⁓ thank God it survived and and made it to the ground safely. however I can imagine, again, using these numbers as a ballpark ⁓ estimate, ⁓ that the G forces inside of that aircraft must have been incredible. Wha what happens to people when we are exposed to ⁓ to forces like that? Well, you're exactly right. I mean, you know, certainly certainly very terrifying for the folks folks on board. Yeah, absolutely. As far as the G loading is concerned, ⁓ the flight data recorder is gonna show us that. So we'll you know, we will know what type of G loading they were exposed to. Wow, it you know, it would certainly be a guess, you know, I You know, I I hesitate to even come up with the number, but I two Gs maybe two point five. It's a guess, but there's probably viewers right now that are cringing at me saying that number. you know, what I can say is it certainly wasn't up around five or six because your average person that is not trained to do acrobatic flight or test pilot work or whatever, they Your average person cannot sustain five G's for very long at all. They pass out. ⁓ so we know we weren't up into those numbers. Or e everybody would have been unconscious. so something like that was, you know, probably somewhere around two G's, a little bit in that area or so. ⁓ so yeah, so that in and of itself, having never experienced something like that, in and of itself would have been frightening. ⁓ not to mention just the fact that the aircraft is. know, diving, you can look out the window, you see the, you know, the relationship to the earth is obviously this steep and accelerating and ⁓ all those commotions going on up front. Absolutely terrifying. Yeah. And it it it would it be comparable again, I I don't wanna zoom in too much on the Geo Forces because we can't simply cannot know without the actual data. ⁓ but ⁓ Comparable to to to when a car immediately slams on the brakes ⁓ after it's it's going pretty pretty fast, like when you like jumped into into the seatbelt, just a shockler, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I I look back on my, you know, early ⁓ younger years as a firefighter and a paramedic. ⁓ yeah, and you know, absolutely. I I've certainly seen my share of ⁓ auto accidents and And there are, you know, we do learn about certain G limits and tolerances. And it's the same thing with accent investigators for airplane crashes, that we, you know, we learn what the limits are in all three axes of the body, what g loadings the human body could tolerate. so, you know, based on all of that, first of all, yes, you're exactly right. the the only difference is what You and I are talking about now with auto accidents, it's a very short period of time. So the body can handle much higher G loads because the period is so short. So you end up, you know, possibly hitting 10 G's, but it's only four, you know, ⁓ uh.4 seconds or something. ⁓ whereas 10 G's sustained over four seconds. Could be quite devastating internally. ⁓ so time makes a difference. So, you know, these folks was definitely beyond one G. two, somewhere in that area. It's safe to say it was definitely beyond one. They definitely felt a difference in the G loading beyond what they're accustomed to, which is obviously one G. That would have made it even more. unusual, concerning, disorienting, even. And I will be interested just from an accident investigator's perspective, ⁓ from the flight data recording, just to see what the what the G loading actually is. ⁓ in fact, if I'd had more time, I would have ⁓ gone back and looked at the flight data recorder from a couple accidents that I know of that were nosedives. ⁓ US Air 427's a perfect example. I I I I should have gone and looked at the flight data recorded for four twenty-seven to see what the G loading was on the way down for that one. That would have helped answer that question. Yeah, it's it's no problem. I think ⁓ a bunch of the questions I've seen online regarding ⁓ what happened was also from arose from a few of the videos from inside of the airplane, right? And ⁓ I think maybe if we can look at one of those videos and then ⁓ cover some of those questions ⁓ people may have about ⁓ what we're seeing there. ⁓ well that can certainly be pretty telling. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so this is from Channel Four News. ⁓ I I I put it on full screen. I hope you can see it properly. Yes. Yeah, so let's see. Yeah, there we go. More than two hours into a flight from Dubai to Tel Aviv, fear and confusion ripple back through the cabin. Everything's okay, the man repeats. At the front of the plane, there's been a fight in the cockpit between the captain and the co-pilot. Check it, check it, danger. And then a steep spiraling dive. The Boeing seven three seven had been seconded from crashing to the ground before crew and passengers restrained the co pilot, a pair of reserve pilots taking the controls. Yeah, so that's one. ⁓ Yeah, so no, go for it. Well, so one thing I was gonna say is so we are under the impression or we believe or know that that video was taken while the airplane was in its well, I I'm dive I'm I'm not sure. I I don't think it would be taken ⁓ during Dino's dive. I it'll probably be pretty difficult to record something during the nose dive, but there seems to be ⁓ the altercation seems to be already going on as this is recorded. So this is like prior to the nosedive, I would assume. And then there is one of the aftermath. ⁓ so because I was gonna say from watching that, I can tell by looking at the people, there's not a high G loading on those folks. Just by look just by looking at the individuals, their bodies, their arms, their heads and the way they're walking. There there's not a high G loading on No, exactly. So but I think people are screaming here and I believe this is right before the nosedive. So there's this all altercation happening. There's screams coming from ⁓ the cockpit and this is why people are starting to wonder, hey, what's going on? ⁓ but this is pre pre nosedive. So there there's another video ⁓ of this ⁓ girl. This is also it starts out during the the the incident as well and then it kind of ends here so I'll I'll just play play it from here. I think that that's the relevant part. So yeah, so basically ⁓ some of the questions I saw as a result of those videos that started ⁓ circulating. ⁓ it was it was good to actually be accurate about which videos are legit and which ones were fake because immediately some older videos started circulating from different flights and ⁓ people started doing the wrong conclusions. There was this old video of a basketball team celebrating some some kind of win and there was a guy with a huge speaker box and people's like, hey, this is a different plane and ⁓ that's that's so people are immediately skewing the entire conversation by ⁓ it's just like I y it's like why do people you know people are just such idiots. It it's like why do they have to do things like that? You know I mean this is a serious event with serious questions and people traumatized and they have to do stupid stuff like that. I mean So so one of the one of the ⁓ things ⁓ that I saw online and I was also kind of curious about w the first thing I noticed is that there are no oxygen masks being ⁓ released. ⁓ is is that normal in in an ⁓ event like this? When do oxygen masks usually get released? So the oxygen masks are released automatically. Well, we could actually trigger their release. But that's very uncommon that we do that. they are automatically released when the cabin pressurization drops too low. In other words, the cabin altitude becomes too high. It's usually around fourteen thousand feet. so the air is I'm gonna use the you know the colloquial terms, the air's too thin. And you need supplemental oxygen to stay conscious. So that's when the masks come down. So we have an indicator in the flight deck that shows us the altitude of the ⁓ cabin. So even though we're 32,000 feet, it'll show us that in the back, the interior, the cabin is pressurized and it thinks it's flying at about 8,000 feet. Plenty of oxygen at 8,000 feet. If something were to happen and we start developing a pretty serious leak, that'll start climbing. And if it hits fourteen thousand feet, automatically all the masks come down. Right. So so No, so a no ⁓ would a nosedive event like this trigger oxygen masks or not necessarily? No, not unless the cabin depressurized ⁓ would would they do that? ⁓ Or where for some reason the cabin depressurized and the automatic system failed, then there's a checklist we would run and there's a manual button that you could drop them, but there's there's no reason to drop them. There's plenty of there's plenty of air. I mean, the cabin is still pressurized. There's it's not an oxygen problem for anyone anywhere. ⁓ it's an automated system. ⁓ And that's why they come down. Yeah. So yeah. No, makes total sense why they're not down. Wouldn't expect it. I'm ⁓ yeah. No, not at all. No, that that's why we're doing this. ⁓ second thing I read online is people were curious about ⁓ sometimes when there's videos of an aftermath of serious turbulence, ⁓ when there's like really heavy turbulence. Apparently there's some some photos I should have included them of ⁓ the overhead compartments being blown wide open and usually the plane is a mess, right? There's trash everywhere and people their ⁓ their stuff is scattered across the plane. Now it's pretty hard to tell from from this video specifically. ⁓ it doesn't seem to be an extreme mess after the nosedive. Overhead compartments are definitely closed. Other than that, I can't really tell where all people's stuff is. This was the only trustworthy video I could find of after the nosedive. ⁓ but w w what would we expect after a a nosedive and how could that compare? How does that compare to heavy turbulence? So the difference is with something like this, as the aircraft pitches over. You go for a short period of time into a negative G, ⁓ like negative half a G or something, just like a roller coaster when you get that kind of tickle in your stomach and you kind of feel that raising in your seat, right? Right. It's the same thing, going over a hill. And then as you come down, because of the physics involved here, and then you start adding some positive G's. So there's, you know, it's that steady. First we're doing this number. Then it switches over to a positive G loading and it stays there. There's no reason why the latches would fail. There's no reason why anything would happen. With turbulence, the difference is the G loading and the airframe is all over the place. I mean, the airplane's bouncing up and down, you know, ⁓ negative something, positive this, negative something, positive this, right? So it's just, you know, if if you would have In fact, when you look at flight data recorders and you look at G loadings and the pitch of the airplane and the yawing of the airplane, I mean, it's just all over the place. So when you put that kind of force on those on the overhead bins, those latches are already designed to take so much force. And then you have those heavy bags in there that are slamming against those. Though you know, those latches are gonna fail fairly easy. So They do. And all that stuff comes flying out. ⁓ sometimes the overhead bins actually get ripped off the ceiling of the airplane. It can be that violent, and you will and you'll see videos of those laying around. ⁓ so it's a totally different situation because, like I say, you know, think of ⁓ the difference between, you know. taking something and lifting it up quickly and then just kind of dropping it to the ground as opposed to taking a salt shaker and shaking it like this. I mean, think about the violence one versus the other. And I think you could clearly see why one would be so much more damaging than another. Right. So b basically like we are seeing some sort of roller coaster behavior when we look at the flight data. It goes down and then it goes up and then it goes down again. But it it's not necessarily as violent as something just like going up and down like within seconds. Yeah, I mean look how smooth it is. I mean it goes I mean, you know, granted it's a large deviation from normality, but it but but look what it is. It just goes all the way up. One direction increases and then peaks the top and then comes down one direction continuously. It's not up, you know, it's not positive G, negative G, positive G, negative G. That's what severe turbulence is. And that's why things get slammed around and things start breaking. drink carts get thrown all over the place, people get thrown all over the place. People get bounced, ⁓ you know, when you hit negative G's, people get bounced off the roof. ⁓ people actually get killed ⁓ you know, are actually killed sometimes when they get slammed to the ceiling and you know, they break their neck or closed head injuries. ⁓ but but look how smooth this is. so no, that makes that makes total sense why why we didn't have that. Yeah. So this is this doesn't seem like ⁓ if you look at like this, it's it's not the best video, but ⁓ being the the state that everything is in that that correlates to the to the data we currently have. Yes. No, I would say those pictures, though those videos, the the behavior of the people, meaning I should say the behavior, the biomechanics of the people, match what I see on the flight data as we have it now, the ADSB data. matches perfectly. And and and and if you had a lot of negative Gs, her pigtails would be floating up in the air as well. Yeah, no, this is the aftermath. So probably they they are likely already stabilized here as they are cheering that the event seems to be ⁓ seems to be over. Well as they pe as they peaked the top and started over, ⁓ her pigtails might have floated up just a little bit as as they hit like a negative point five or point seven five, they probably did come up a little bit and come down because that's what a negative G will do. Yeah. Wa one also I d I didn't think about this, but one comment I saw online was ⁓ both prior to the incident or ⁓ or during rather the pre-nosedive as well as after the nosedive, people mentioned that all of the media screens are turned to black, right? So they are ⁓ all turned off. Nobody is seems to be watching anything and they don't also seem to be interrupt. Is that is is that common for when an incident happens that the crew is able to to switch off all all media? The the crew does have the ability to to do that, but I would find it but I would find it hard to believe in this situation that anyone took the time to do that. And the bigger question would be, why would you take the time to do that? You know, I mean there's you know, there's just There's more important bigger fish to fry. Yeah, I mean, there's more important things going on. I mean, what that could indicate is that there was something damaged in the airplane ⁓ with with the system. ⁓ with the entertainment system, something was damaged with the entertainment system that caused them to all go out, would be my first guess. But there's just no reason as this whole thing is unfolding that the flight attendants would think. You know, 'cause they're focused on the passengers, trying to get them in their seats, trying to get them put seat belts on. No one's gonna say, you know, wait a minute, forget getting the passengers in their seats. Let's turn the entertainment system off. I mean, that's I mean, you know, that's not gonna happen. And then all the stuff going on the flight deck, you know, in fact in a seven thirty seven eight hundred, I'm not sure you can even turn the entertainment system off up there. But yeah, I I'm not sure why they're No, yeah, me me neither. And I'm also not sure why like we can see that they are all off, whatever reason there may be. yeah, I I'm I'm not sure what that would indicate otherwise. ⁓ you know how people online are, they speculate, so people are might be saying like ⁓ this was recorded on on a a grounded plane or or something like that. I haven't read those comments specifically, but I did see people mentioning those ⁓ Those TV ⁓ screens there, so I wanted to ask. You know, I could say as an accident investigator, we just wouldn't put a whole lot into that. I mean, you know, we're gonna they're gonna look at lots of things with the airplane. Someone's gonna notice that. They're gonna look at the electrical system anyways, but that's gonna be item 2,745 on the list. I mean, it's just It just doesn't hold a lot of interest quite frankly. No, I agree. ⁓ finally, ⁓ the plane, I forgot the name of the destination airport or or rather the emergency airport where ⁓ they eventually ⁓ manage to land. How is such a location chosen in case of an emergency like this? So the the decision is, you know, usually ⁓ What we call nearest suitable airport. So, and what that means is obviously nearest being you know the closest, and suitable means has a you know long enough runway. in and can accommodate ⁓ passengers. Now, when you have something this severe, the accommodating passengers part pretty much goes out the window. At this point. You know, the the at this point with something like this, the crew, you know, the pilots are gonna focus on, you know, we would just focus on two things. What's closest and is the runway long enough? And that's it. Now, you also have to think about these this part of the world, you do have to think about geopolitical concern. You know, it didn't seem like the most friendly place to land. Yeah. I mean, y you wanna You know, I suppose that is gonna cross your mind. but other than that, you know, what's the closest? You don't want to pick some little twenty five hundred foot runway. can we get it down? Is the runway long enough? That's where we're going. Right. Yeah. Makes sense. We have discussed the f the flight data. We we've looked at some of the the videos. Is there anything we we haven't talked about that you think is still interesting ⁓ to discuss when you were were looking at this ⁓ this case? One thing that's that's interesting that that I thought about is that both engines continued to operate despite the very high velocity, which can happen, but you can also get the engines can flame out. You get too much air going through them. So if some of these numbers are really true, that it's going that fast, and I don't know what the number would be for this type of engine, what it would take to fail the engine. But that did occur to me as well when I started hearing some numbers being thrown around. One thing I thought about was did they land with both engines? operating or did one flame out and the other one was operating or something like that. Did they have a double engine failure? And it it it appears that both engines were operating. so that was just you know just kind of the investigator in me ⁓ found that interesting. and I wonder if it there's da I'm there there has to be, I'm I'm sure, damage to the engines ⁓ to some degree. ⁓ I would be quite surprised if there's not. Now I think we I think we pretty well pretty well covered everything. I I I think the viewers probably have a better understanding after you know you and I going back and forth and s you know some of the great questions that you asked. I think we kind of laid this out for ⁓ pretty well. Yeah, well, I know I learned a lot, so that's ⁓ it's been really helpful for my understanding. So I'm sure that must be the case for for the listeners as well. One thing I was curious about, y w we discussed the the data being fine for an initial analysis, but that we have to be careful ⁓ with basic data, ⁓ basic public data like this. What about the more interesting, more more detailed data? Is that something that is ⁓ going to be made public? Is there a law specifically international airline law that requires ⁓ data to be made public when an event like this happens? So it depends on the country or the agency that is performing the investigation. So it varies all around the world. so here in the United States, yes, that is all put out. I am almost positive that's the case in the Netherlands. Great Britain, you know, a you know, there's many countries. Well, yes, it's all you know, put out in the open and and everybody can see that. but not all countries are like that. Not all investigative agencies do that. So I'm not sure who is going to be the lead agency on investigating this. And it'll be what their policies are. Some of them just simply do not. They just refuse to, ⁓ they'll share very little. They'll have the report and they'll say what they're going to say, but as far as like, you know, an appendix, You know, ⁓ with all of the other information, you know, they they won't have, like the ⁓ cockpit voice recorder transcript. ⁓ a lot of agencies, you know, like yours and ours and and many others, they'll have, you know, the transcript where we can see exactly what they were saying, you know, what was going on on the flight deck. Who knows if this agency ⁓ will publish something like that? ⁓ so we're just gonna have to wait and see. I'm not sure. I haven't heard yet. Who the lead agency will be. I do know that under ICAO ⁓ rules that because it is a Boeing aircraft, ⁓ so obviously a US based aircraft, that the United States at the NTSB is allowed to send an investigator or two. To participate in the investigation with whomever is doing the investigation. And what we've seen over time is sometimes they're welcome with open arms and saying, you know, you know, come on in here, you know, roll up your sleeves, you know, help us out. And I've heard stories sometimes where they're greeted with basically, stand in the corner and ⁓ don't touch anything unless we ask you to, kind of attitude. So who knows this agency, you know, whomever it's gonna be, who knows how they're gonna ⁓ be approached. But the NTSB ⁓ does have the right and I'm sure will, ⁓ probably already has someone over there. If not, they're on their way. and ⁓ you know, and and a lot of agencies around the world will will ask for additional people. Same thing with the engine manufacturer, they have the right to send someone. And so forth. And and and sometimes these other agencies will ask for extra people. So they'll tell like the engine manufacturer, hey, instead of sending one person, we want someone, you know, that's designed this, this, this, and this. Can you send those people or the NTSB? Instead of just sending one person, can you send six people that specialize in this or something? so who knows who's gonna get to be part of this? Who knows who the lead agency is? And the bottom line is who knows what they're gonna share when it's all sudden? Yeah. Yeah, that that'll be interesting for sure because it's UAE. I mean Fly Dubai, I'm assuming it's a UAE ⁓ company. obviously ⁓ Is Israel is involved as well. Is there any like international legislation as to which party, which investigation unit gets to do the investigation, or can one just claim it? It's the basically it's the site of where the airplane ends up. Right. Which is also Saudi Arabia. So it it should be a Saudi Arabia's investigation. But they have the right, ⁓ and I believe maybe I shouldn't say this because I don't know, but I believe they have a fairly robust investigative ⁓ agency. But I'm I'm not sure that's true. May me maybe I should pull that back. I I'm not sure that I think they do. I I think they do. but there have been countries out there where they do not have such robust in not like Saudi Arabia, but some other countries where they say, Yeah, I know it's ours to investigate, but you know, we've got six people that work on art, you know. Please send the world, you know. You know, can everyone else come do it for us, you know? I doubt that's the case with Saudi Arabia. So so yeah. ⁓ so it so technically it should be their investigation since it's on their soil is where the airplane is. Okay, interesting. Well, waiting for some some news out of ⁓ Saudi Arabia then. Is ⁓ is there anything you'd like to to see? I mean, w apart from the data, are you are you waiting for for any more details or is there some information that is likely to come out that hasn't yet that you would like to have a look at. I would be interested to know if some of the speed was controlled by if the gear was put down or the speed brakes were extended on the wings. And that's how they were able to keep the speed from going any higher. because those would be two methods that you could keep the speed from going any higher. The problem is that speed where it currently is might be above the structural limit for both of those. So you might not be you probably wouldn't be able to do that. But I would be curious to know if they were extended earlier on why the airspeed was climbing. Because those are two things that we think about when we have an aircraft accelerating and we can't get it to slow down. because putting the gear down has a huge amount of drag out there, right? It was big wheels that come down and, you know, the devices that come up on the wings. They probably were not because the speed still managed to get that high. But I'd be interested to see. if if that was done or not. But other than that, we're just gonna have to wait. We're just gonna have to wait and see. There's, you know, you know, hope for a speedy recovery. And and hopefully all the people that are on board get the help they need. I mean, you know, this this has a lot of huge psychological impact. We have to remember, you know, there's a lot of there's a lot of second victims here. ⁓ there's people that are seriously traumatized by this. And I hope they get the you know, the the support they need, you know, ⁓ whatever therapy or support they might need to to overcome this. ⁓ unbelievably traumatic for a lot of people. So Yeah. I mean it's the worst nightmare, right? I mean, there's so many people out there with flight anxiety already. So any anything like this is ⁓ Is terrible, especially for the people directly ⁓ involved. It's ⁓ probably you're in a cheerful mood when you make it out alive, logically, but ⁓ probably the real blow comes after a few weeks. Yeah, exactly. And I've s you know, and I've seen I've seen the whole gambit. You know, I've seen people that go through things like this and they're just fine and they stay fine and it just you know, it doesn't mean they're like tougher than anyone else. It's just some people just process things differently and they're just different personalities and I've seen some people not survive these type of events. That they, you know, you know, a lot of therapy, a lot of work. And even after a couple of years of that, you know, they end up, you know, ⁓ you know, committing suicide and stuff, you know. So I I've seen it go the go the extreme. So I just hope everyone gets the, you know, the help they need to be able to ⁓ navigate this very traumatic experience that everyone gets better and able to go on with their life and ⁓ And the captain. I haven't heard an update in the last twenty four hours on how he's doing. I heard last he's expected to survive, so I'm very happy to hear that. But I haven't heard anything today yet. So I I'm assuming he's still doing well. But Yeah. F fingers crawls. No no no g no news is good news, hopefully, ⁓ hopefully in the case. Yeah. Exactly. Well, Sean, thank you so much for for coming on the show again on such a short notice. And even though it was ⁓ quite a heavy topic, I still really enjoyed ⁓ having this conversation with you. It was phenomenal. You are so extremely knowledgeable and yeah, I'm very grateful that we ⁓ that we got to do this. In in case people wanna wanna keep up with ⁓ your work, ⁓ any any other stuff, ⁓ what is the bless best place for them to go? Well, I my my company, my consulting company has a website, HFIE dot org. Human factors investigation and education. That's where H F I E ⁓ comes from. So HFIE dot org is my website. and ⁓ they can go there and they can see ⁓ the consulting the type of consulting work I do. And you can also find me online. a lot of different places. I do a lot of media work. ⁓ so it's not too hard to find me. I ⁓ y a year and a half ago I testified to Congress about the ⁓ I was asked to testify to the Senate about ⁓ safety problems at Boeing when they were going through ⁓ right some of their initial problems. So there's lots of stuff out there with me ⁓ talking about safety issues. So Yeah. Well it's been it's been a pleasure, Sean. I'd ⁓ I'd love to stay in touch. It was great meeting you. ⁓ today and ⁓ yeah let's ⁓ let's ⁓ r well hopefully let's ⁓ run it back someday if ⁓ if there's some positive er airline news to ⁓ to discuss. I was gonna say let's find some other things to talk about. ⁓ I I would enjoy that very much. Yeah, me too. All right. Bye everybody.