Latest / Ridiculous History / CLASSIC: Playboy, Progressive Politics and Stand-up: The Dick Gregory Story, with Wayne Federman

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CLASSIC: Playboy, Progressive Politics and Stand-up: The Dick Gregory Story, with Wayne Federman · Ridiculous History

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Fellow Ridiculous Historians, this week's classic episode is something that
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: really stood out to us. We had an interview years
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: ago with the legendary Wayne Fetterman. Noel, you remember this one?
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: Of course, man. Love that guy. Hold on a second.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: I almost want to say that he was involved in
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: a sketch or a scene in Curb Your Enthusiasm involving tipping.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Larry David loved to joke about the politics of tipping,
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: but maybe I'm wrong. But he was definitely on an
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: episode of Curb. He taught classes about the history of
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: comedy in Los Angeles, and he was kind enough to
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  Speaker 2: talk to us about the progressive politics and scandalous stand-up
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: of Dick Gregory.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: So let's roll the tape. Welcome to the show, Ridiculous Historians.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for tuning in. Now, you know, also, additionally,
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: maybe it's just me. I want to thank everyone who
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: has bothered to chuckle, laugh, snort, laugh through their nose
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: or occasionally laugh. guffaw at our jokes because comedy is tough.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Ben. Hey, I'm Noel, and I've never fancied
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: myself a comedian. I always say I'm a purveyor of
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: dad jokes, and I am absolutely fine with that. But
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: straight seahorse teeth seems to be taking off online like wildfire, Ben.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: It's true, Noel.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: Did you already say your name?
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: Sorry. I said, hey, second time's a charm.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Comedy's all about listening, you know what I mean?
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: Oh, Ben.
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: It's true.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: Shaming me.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: You know what is pretty cool, though? It's the official
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: return of can we get a drum roll, please? He
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: has to do his own drum. Let's go. Super producer
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Casey Labouche-Pagram.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: I know. Casey, when you were away, did you hear
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: that we kind of developed a mythology for you based
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: on our knowledge of your French goings-ons?
• 2:28
  Speaker 5: I caught wind of this, yeah. My sources back here
• 2:30
  Speaker 5: in the States were keeping me informed of all relevant information.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: You're very tied in, very connected.
• 2:38
  Speaker 5: Spycraft, you know, you got to have your feelers out there, so.
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  Speaker 1: I have a question, and please do not feel obligated
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  Speaker 1: to answer this, Casey. First off, I say this with
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: great affection. There was a Casey-shaped hole in my heart
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: when you were gone. Now that you are aware, along
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: with all of our fellow listeners, about how your alleged
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: double life in France was portrayed, would you say that
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: this is accurate, inaccurate? A seed of truth?
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  Speaker 2: I don't know.
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  Speaker 5: I don't really want to blow up my own spot
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  Speaker 5: like that. But, you know, I'd say if it's maybe
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  Speaker 5: not true to the letter, it's certainly true to the spirit.
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  Speaker 1: All right. Okay. I can accept that. Well played. You've
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: passed the test, my friend. We have, in honor of
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: your return, we have not a surprise for you, but
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: a gift for you and hopefully for all of our
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: fellow listeners today. A while back, I think it was
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: episode 108 or 109. We did a two-part show on
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: the history of stand-up with our pal Wayne Fetterman, who
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: has an encyclopedic knowledge of the history of comedy. And Casey,
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: we waited until you returned with your U.S. identity to
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  Speaker 1: the studio to have Wayne Fetterman on the show today
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: for you, dude.
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  Speaker 5: I know, and I'm so psyched about this because, yeah,
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  Speaker 5: it was like a year ago that I was out
• 4:13
  Speaker 5: and he was on, and it was driving me up
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  Speaker 5: the wall because, yeah, I'm a big fan of the
• 4:17
  Speaker 5: guy and a big fan of the history of comedy
• 4:19
  Speaker 5: and everything else. So, yeah, it's great to be here
• 4:21
  Speaker 5: for this.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: Well, Wayne is an encyclopedic font of comedy knowledge. His podcast,
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: The History of Stand-Up, on the Podglomerate Network with his co-host,
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  Speaker 2: Andrew Stephen. It's just a delight. And last time we
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: had him on, we talked about Lenny Bruce and kind
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: of some more inflammatory comics that sort of pushed the
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: envelope of free speech.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: George Carlin.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: George Carlin, however many filthy words, unarable words there are.
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  Speaker 2: I think those are the only two explicit episodes of
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: the show we've ever had because we needed to be
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: able to unbleep those words because they were very important.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: To the story. It was about censorship. Luckily, however we
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: did with that episode, Wayne was a charitable enough guy
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: that he came back to hang out with us today.
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: Not to mention that my mic was cut for like
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: half of one of the episodes and we still salvaged
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: it with our crack forensic audio team and made it
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  Speaker 2: at least somewhat listenable. And also Wayne didn't think we
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: were a bunch of hacks and agreed to come back on,
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: which I really appreciate. And this episode is fantastic. Another
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: exploration of some envelope pushing comedy, but in a slightly
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: different way.
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  Speaker 1: So without having deep dive demographics on how many of
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  Speaker 1: us are stand-up history buffs, we'd like to introduce you
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  Speaker 1: to a man named Dick Gregory, a pioneer, not just
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  Speaker 1: in the world of stand-up comedy, though he very much was,
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  Speaker 1: but also in the world of civil rights and activism.
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  Speaker 1: So we hope that you enjoy our conversation here with
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: Wayne about not just comedy and but about progressive actions
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  Speaker 1: in the United States, about civil rights in the 60s,
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  Speaker 1: about the oddly heartwarming actions of the often controversial Hugh Hefner.
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  Speaker 2: Let's get right to it.
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: The rumors are true, ridiculous historians. We are joined once
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  Speaker 1: again with a friend of the show and host of
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  Speaker 1: the History of Stand-Up podcast, Wayne Fetterman.
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  Speaker 2: Friend of the American people, Wayne Fetterman.
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  Speaker 1: Friend to our producer, Casey Peck from Wayne Fetterman.
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  Speaker 4: How you doing, Wayne?
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  Speaker 6: I really would rather be speaking to Casey. That guy's incredible.
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  Speaker 2: He may chime in, but you won't be able to
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: hear him because he's not piped into the phone. But
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: we will relay any words of wisdom that he provides
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  Speaker 2: on his behalf.
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  Speaker 7: All right. Is he beaming right now because I'm talking
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  Speaker 7: about him?
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  Speaker 8: I am.
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  Speaker 3: He is.
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  Speaker 2: He says that he is. His face is obscured by
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: a giant computer monitor, so I can't speak to that person.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: But his voice in my ears says that he is.
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  Speaker 1: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: And he just leaned in and gave a big smile.
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  Speaker 1: Fun story before we get started. And this is a
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: true story, Wayne. When we were putting together this episode,
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Casey actually asked us to hold and he traveled all
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: the way back from Paris, France to be here today.
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  Speaker 2: Very special trip.
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  Speaker 1: It's true.
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  Speaker 2: It's all true.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 7: Let me just say that it's very much on brand
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  Speaker 7: for Casey.
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  Speaker 1: So when we previously spoke together, we looked at the
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: history of what we call stand up today, not just
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: as the craft or the actual performance that we think
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: of with somebody standing with a microphone and an audience
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: that hopefully loves them, but not always. We also talked
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: about some of the bigger social questions that stand-up brings
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  Speaker 1: to the forefront and sometimes Those can be uncomfortable questions
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  Speaker 1: that people don't typically explore. Now they laugh at it too,
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  Speaker 1: but sometimes they leave thinking. In our earlier conversations leading
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: up to today's episode, you started telling us about someone
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  Speaker 1: that was, I think maybe vaguely familiar to us, but
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  Speaker 1: someone we weren't super well acquainted with, which is the
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  Speaker 1: comedian and activist Dick Gregory. Wayne, could you tell us
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  Speaker 1: a little bit about just for our audience, who Dick
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  Speaker 1: Gregory is?
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  Speaker 6: Well, Dick Gregory is famous in the history of stand-up
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  Speaker 6: for one specific thing, and that is he became the
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  Speaker 6: first major, and there's a caveat, we can go into it, comedian,
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  Speaker 6: African-American comedian, to play white nightclubs. And how that happened,
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  Speaker 6: we will tell you in a moment, I'm sure. But
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  Speaker 6: he was just a You know, he was a funny kid.
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  Speaker 6: He was an athlete. He went to college. He was
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  Speaker 6: in the service. And then he moved from St. Louis
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  Speaker 6: to Chicago to pursue his dream of becoming a stand-up
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  Speaker 6: comedian and could only play the black clubs in and
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  Speaker 6: around Chicago and was really struggling. Actually had a day job.
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  Speaker 6: He worked at the post office. He washed cars, all
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  Speaker 6: trying to subsidize this career of his.
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  Speaker 7: And at this point, he's married. He has a lot
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  Speaker 7: of responsibilities.
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  Speaker 2: So leading up to this big moment that we're going
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  Speaker 2: to get into that involves another kind of historical luminary
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  Speaker 2: and controversial figure, Dick Gregory was kind of doing his
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  Speaker 2: best to get into the kind of Chicago stand-up nightclub scene.
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  Speaker 2: And as you said, it wasn't a very welcoming scene
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  Speaker 2: for people of color. And I want to play this
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  Speaker 2: clip from American Masters on PBS where Gregory kind of
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  Speaker 2: describes this moment. where he had to disarm a white
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  Speaker 2: audience at a club, I want to say in Alabama
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  Speaker 2: or something like that, where someone calls him a racial slur.
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  Speaker 2: And he has to take that opportunity to diffuse the
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  Speaker 2: situation rather than make a scene and, you know, put
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  Speaker 2: his career in jeopardy because these were ultimately his clients
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  Speaker 2: So he was there to entertain. So I think this
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  Speaker 2: really is a very teachable moment about the kind of
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  Speaker 2: climate that he was dealing with.
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  Speaker 4: So I go down there and I'm not thinking of anything.
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  Speaker 8: I didn't know at the time that a Negro is
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  Speaker 8: not permitted to work a white nightclub.
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  Speaker 4: That's in all of America. And I remember not knowing that.
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  Speaker 8: I used to practice, what do you do when some
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  Speaker 8: white person yells something negative out or embarrass you? And
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  Speaker 8: so I used to practice with my wife, but it
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  Speaker 8: didn't work because she was too nice and kind. And
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  Speaker 8: then one night, I don't know how I got this
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  Speaker 8: little job in this little hick town, little Mishawaka, Indiana.
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  Speaker 4: You don't have to say no more.
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  Speaker 8: So I'm in Mishawaka, Indiana, and somebody said, Get that
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  Speaker 8: nigga off the stage.
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  Speaker 2: Now, I was ready for it.
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  Speaker 4: And everybody just froze. And I said, yeah, white boy,
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  Speaker 4: call me, call me. All Rangers hearts, call me Trigger.
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  Speaker 4: And everybody laughed. I'm out of it. There's no way
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  Speaker 4: you can feel sorry for me or embarrassed and laugh.
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  Speaker 4: So now I got them back. Now I'm off. You know,
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  Speaker 4: and the guy walks up and says, whew, thank you.
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  Speaker 4: Jesus Christ. I wanted to hit him myself. And then
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  Speaker 4: the guy walks up and says he's sorry.
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  Speaker 3: Sorry?
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  Speaker 4: I almost paid you, man. I've been trying to figure
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  Speaker 4: out how to get through this.
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  Speaker 2: So, Wayne, I wanted to know if you thought that
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  Speaker 2: maybe this was kind of– he would have had to
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  Speaker 2: deal with similar situations like this leading up to this moment.
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  Speaker 2: And he almost describes it as like an aha moment
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  Speaker 2: where it's like, aha, this is how I can deal
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: with this kind of heckling. Right.
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  Speaker 6: Well, I feel like Dick Gregory, especially at that time,
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  Speaker 6: had a very high emotional and comedic IQ on how
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  Speaker 6: to handle crowds. And it's remarkable considering he's not that
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  Speaker 6: experienced other than basically playing these black clubs. But I
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  Speaker 6: just think he had an innate sense of, one, how
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  Speaker 6: to perform in front of white audiences, and two, how
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  Speaker 6: to diffuse these very volatile situations that I'm sure would
• 12:15
  Speaker 6: come up all the time.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 1: Because as, as you had mentioned before, he was, he
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: was working, let's see, his comedic career began in what
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: the mid to late 1950s. Is that correct?
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  Speaker 3: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: Yes.
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  Speaker 7: That's exactly correct.
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  Speaker 6: And at that time there wasn't a lot of, uh,
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  Speaker 6: you know, African-American comedians on television or on the Ed
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  Speaker 6: Sullivan show.
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  Speaker 7: It was just a few.
• 12:38
  Speaker 6: And once in a while he'd see somebody and there
• 12:41
  Speaker 6: really wasn't a, A big circuit to play. There was
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  Speaker 6: big white nightclubs, which we called nightclubs at that time.
• 12:48
  Speaker 6: But they wouldn't use African-American comedians. Once in a while,
• 12:53
  Speaker 6: they would. But as a rule, they'd have an act.
• 12:58
  Speaker 6: Sammy Davis could play there or something like that. Or
• 13:00
  Speaker 6: a team or a singer like Pearl Bailey or something
• 13:04
  Speaker 6: like that all the time.
• 13:06
  Speaker 7: But not a stand-up.
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  Speaker 2: I saw a really interesting clip with the comedian Paul Mooney,
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  Speaker 2: who was another very outspoken comic, a contemporary, maybe a
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: little younger than Gregory, but still kind of very much
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: like in the same scene as Richard Pryor. So maybe
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  Speaker 2: like the next generation. But he talked about how in Hollywood,
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: nothing could ever be too white, but it was very
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: easy for something to be too black. Um, and I
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  Speaker 2: think that's a really interesting distinction where like you talk
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  Speaker 2: about Sammy Davis juniors and like performers of that caliber,
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  Speaker 2: they were a little more palatable to a white audience,
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  Speaker 2: but a comic like Gregory who wasn't pulling any punches,
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  Speaker 2: that would be a little harder to take for these
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: folks who maybe weren't used to seeing things like that.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: Is that, would you say that's accurate?
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  Speaker 3: Yes.
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  Speaker 6: Mooney is a hundred percent on, on like people would go, okay,
• 13:49
  Speaker 6: this is, this is too much for us. But again,
• 13:52
  Speaker 6: Dick Gregory, I think really learned how to thread the
• 13:56
  Speaker 6: needle almost like in a, um, Jackie Robinson kind of
• 14:00
  Speaker 6: way that he was like able to like take white
• 14:03
  Speaker 6: audiences expectations of what a black guy would talk about.
• 14:07
  Speaker 6: And he talked about racial stuff all the time. That
• 14:09
  Speaker 6: was the centerpiece of his act, but he did it
• 14:12
  Speaker 6: in a very non-threatening, very human way, as opposed to
• 14:17
  Speaker 6: an angry way in that same NPR or PBS clip
• 14:21
  Speaker 6: that we just heard later on. He talks about that
• 14:24
  Speaker 6: he was always respectful and that he wasn't bitter and
• 14:27
  Speaker 6: that he wasn't angry. And this was all, I'm sure, underneath.
• 14:31
  Speaker 6: But again, I just feel like his emotional IQ was
• 14:37
  Speaker 6: through the roof on how to handle these situations. So
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  Speaker 6: he wasn't like Paul Mooney, who would not, you know,
• 14:42
  Speaker 6: I can't imagine Paul Mooney handling that situation in that
• 14:46
  Speaker 6: club the same way.
• 14:48
  Speaker 7: It would be way more confrontational.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. I agree 100% with that statement about emotional IQ. Recently,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: this is not a plug. I actually do listen to
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: the history of stand-up.
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: Oh.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, as season two started. And in season two, you
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: guys just had an episode come out recently about the
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: Playboy circuit. And this was something that I didn't recognize.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: This episode, for anybody listening, is available now when our
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: episode comes out. So give it a listen. This brings
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: us to something that we'd love for you to explore
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: with us here, which is the interactions between Dick Gregory
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: and Hugh Hefner, the mastermind behind Playboy Magazine, later the
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: Playboy Empire. Noel, this is something you were alluding to
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: in the beginning, right?
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. And this Playboy Club, I didn't realize,
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: was a big source of, you know, entertainment.
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: Huge.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: And, like, massive, you know, opportunity for working comics.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: If you got a regular gig at the Playboy Club,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: which was in Chicago at the time, that was a
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: massive break for you. Can you tell us a little
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: bit about how Dick Gregory literally kind of stumbled his
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: way into this massive break? The story is fantastic.
• 16:04
  Speaker 6: Well, this is I assume this is why I'm talking
• 16:06
  Speaker 6: to you guys. This moment is very important in the
• 16:09
  Speaker 6: big history of stand up. And we covered it briefly
• 16:11
  Speaker 6: in our first season and then went a little closer.
• 16:14
  Speaker 6: And thank you for the kind words about the Playboy. Episode.
• 16:19
  Speaker 6: I appreciate it. For anyone, it's the eight of us
• 16:23
  Speaker 6: that are interested in the history of stand-up.
• 16:25
  Speaker 7: So this is what happened.
• 16:27
  Speaker 6: February 29th, 1960, the first Playboy Club opens.
• 16:31
  Speaker 7: You're like, what does that mean, a Playboy Club?
• 16:33
  Speaker 6: Well, in 53, real quickly, Hefner publishes this magazine, December 53,
• 16:39
  Speaker 6: called Playboy. Marilyn Monroe's on the cover. There's no date
• 16:43
  Speaker 6: stamped on it because it might have been the last one.
• 16:45
  Speaker 6: And it basically has nudie pictures in it, but nothing
• 16:50
  Speaker 6: too graphic.
• 16:51
  Speaker 7: I hope that's clear what that means.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah.
• 16:55
  Speaker 6: And then like articles and he was into literature. And
• 16:58
  Speaker 6: so anyway, this magazine out of Chicago, this kid who
• 17:02
  Speaker 6: had this dream becomes this runaway success in the 50s.
• 17:06
  Speaker 6: So he is like printing money by.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: 57, 50.
• 17:09
  Speaker 6: It's outselling Time Magazine. It's outselling Esquire. It's like this incredible,
• 17:15
  Speaker 6: and has a big female readership as well. So he,
• 17:19
  Speaker 6: three things happen around this time. One, he does this
• 17:22
  Speaker 6: huge indoor jazz festival called the Playboy Jazz Festival. Two,
• 17:28
  Speaker 6: he buys a mansion in Chicago and they call it
• 17:32
  Speaker 6: the Playboy Mansion, which is like this party house. And three,
• 17:37
  Speaker 6: he opens the Playboy Club. And also four, there's another
• 17:41
  Speaker 6: thing I'm forgetting. He starts this syndicated television show called
• 17:44
  Speaker 6: Playboy's Penthouse, which is this black and white in the
• 17:48
  Speaker 6: first two years. And you kind of get, it sort
• 17:50
  Speaker 6: of presents like this party that you're invited to. So
• 17:54
  Speaker 6: people are sitting around and they're drinking and they're smoking.
• 17:57
  Speaker 6: And there's a guy playing piano and suddenly Sammy Davis
• 18:00
  Speaker 6: comes in and sings. And then Lenny Bruce does some comedy.
• 18:03
  Speaker 6: It's just a very incredible like insight into like the
• 18:07
  Speaker 6: world he wants to create.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: Hefner.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: And that was kind of like a variety show for him, right?
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: Is that where we get that idea of him with
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: the pipe and the smoking jacket and the whole nine?
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 18:16
  Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:17
  Speaker 6: But it's not, it is a variety show, but not
• 18:19
  Speaker 6: on a proscenium stage in like a living room. And
• 18:22
  Speaker 6: then we, let's go over to the dining room and
• 18:23
  Speaker 6: then let's get some cocktails made over here. And let's
• 18:26
  Speaker 6: listen to Cy Coleman play witchcraft. And then it's, it's
• 18:30
  Speaker 6: just a great like promotional tool for the Playboy brand,
• 18:34
  Speaker 6: which was, and we talk about it in the podcast
• 18:37
  Speaker 6: that he was going for sophistication like that was his
• 18:42
  Speaker 6: like he thought, God, if I could make nudie picture,
• 18:46
  Speaker 6: you know, this part of a sophisticated lifestyle with high
• 18:50
  Speaker 6: fidelity and sports cars and jazz music and great literature
• 18:54
  Speaker 6: that and that's what worked.
• 18:56
  Speaker 7: You know what I mean?
• 18:57
  Speaker 6: So it was like suddenly not a smutty behind the
• 19:00
  Speaker 6: counter kind of embarrassing thing if you wanted to see
• 19:03
  Speaker 6: pictures of beautiful women. So that was another genius, Hugh Hefner.
• 19:08
  Speaker 6: So he's killing it, killing it during Eisenhower's administration. So
• 19:13
  Speaker 6: he opens this Playboy Club, February 29th, 1960. And the
• 19:18
  Speaker 6: Playboy Club was this, you had to pay $ 25 and
• 19:21
  Speaker 6: you got a key, literally a metal key. It later
• 19:24
  Speaker 6: became a card. And that gave you access to the
• 19:27
  Speaker 6: Playboy Club. You were like a key member. And to
• 19:31
  Speaker 6: serve these men, it was a men's only club, but
• 19:34
  Speaker 6: you could bring women. They created the Playboy Bunny, which
• 19:38
  Speaker 6: is different than the Playboy Playmate, which were in the magazine.
• 19:42
  Speaker 6: And the bunny, how would you describe it? I'm going
• 19:45
  Speaker 6: to throw it to you because I feel like I'm
• 19:46
  Speaker 6: talking too much.
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: Were kind of hostesses. They would receive... the gentlemen and
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: their dates when they'd come in, speak to them by name,
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: make them feel very welcome and kind of cater to
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: their needs.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: It was similar to the idea, I guess, we would,
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: an analog would be a hostess club in Japan. You know,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: these people are not necessarily what we would call sex workers.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: They hang out with you. They laugh at your jokes.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: They converse with you. There were also, there was also
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: a uniform that changed over time.
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: Of course, yeah.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: But that was like, from what I remember- Thanks again, Dad.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: I'll admit if you're listening to the show that I
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: did steal some of your Playboys.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: Vintage.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: From what I remember with the advertisements they used to
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: have in the magazine for the Bunnies, there was, it
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: was like, there were even ears at some point.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: A little cotton tail.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then maybe, I feel like I'm remembering some
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: kind of collar thing.
• 20:41
  Speaker 7: I think there was a collar with a bow tie.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: That's correct. And an off-the-shoulder, almost kind of like bustier
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: leotard kind of onesie thing.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: And I believe they're wearing stockings and high heels. Some
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: of them would have those cigarette carts that they would
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: carry and, you know, sell cigarettes and get people's drink
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: orders and stuff.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Oh, and themed. Sometimes they would change it up a
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: little bit for the holidays.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: That makes sense.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 21:03
  Speaker 7: You did great. You did great.
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: You did great.
• 21:05
  Speaker 6: Again, I was never at the Chicago club, so I
• 21:09
  Speaker 6: only know from the pictures and such. But, yes, so
• 21:13
  Speaker 6: that was the vibe of this club. Again, with the
• 21:17
  Speaker 6: bow tie, I guessed. And I'm using quotes around it
• 21:21
  Speaker 6: because these were just young women. But the rule was
• 21:25
  Speaker 6: you weren't allowed to touch or date these women. He
• 21:28
  Speaker 6: was very careful to make it not a quasi strip
• 21:31
  Speaker 6: club or a quasi like, you know, you're going to
• 21:34
  Speaker 6: hook up with these girls or anything like that. And
• 21:36
  Speaker 6: also they wanted to make it, you know. Get as
• 21:39
  Speaker 6: many women customers in there as well.
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: Oh, sure.
• 21:41
  Speaker 6: So part of this, and this is interesting. We didn't
• 21:44
  Speaker 6: go into it. The guy who ran the food and
• 21:46
  Speaker 6: drink concession for this club and then eventually it became
• 21:49
  Speaker 6: a circuit was Arnie Morton, who eventually has these famous
• 21:54
  Speaker 6: steakhouses all across the country.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Wait, the Morton Steakhouse guy? Yes.
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 21:59
  Speaker 7: Same guy. Same guy. So this is one of his
• 22:02
  Speaker 7: earliest gigs.
• 22:04
  Speaker 6: And they had this crazy pricing plan, which was everything was,
• 22:09
  Speaker 6: this is when it opened, everything was $ 1.
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: 50.
• 22:10
  Speaker 6: A drink was $ 1.
• 22:12
  Speaker 7: 50. Your meal was $ 1.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: 50.
• 22:14
  Speaker 6: A pack of cigarettes and a lighter with the Playboy
• 22:18
  Speaker 6: logo on it was $ 1.
• 22:19
  Speaker 7: 50.
• 22:20
  Speaker 6: Like that was their kind of thing. And it's like, again,
• 22:23
  Speaker 6: with Hef, it's a runaway success. Like thousands and thousands
• 22:27
  Speaker 6: of people are pouring or paying 25 bucks to be
• 22:30
  Speaker 6: a member. Everyone kind of got accepted. And then could
• 22:35
  Speaker 6: get part of this sophisticated lifestyle surrounded by these beautiful women.
• 22:41
  Speaker 6: And part of the experience was there was always two
• 22:43
  Speaker 6: rooms for show business. And those were usually a singer
• 22:47
  Speaker 6: and a comic. So this is where Dick Gregory.
• 22:50
  Speaker 7: Comes into the picture. Now, at the time.
• 22:59
  Speaker 6: It's, you know, Chicago has this big nightclub called the
• 23:01
  Speaker 6: Chez Paris, which is run by the mob and is
• 23:04
  Speaker 6: a white nightclub. That was like the big place you
• 23:06
  Speaker 6: could play in Chicago. So acts from the Chez Paris,
• 23:10
  Speaker 6: but also play the Playboy Club. And one of these
• 23:14
  Speaker 6: acts in January 1961, so it's, I guess, 11 months later,
• 23:19
  Speaker 6: is named Professor Irwin Corey.
• 23:23
  Speaker 7: Does that name ring a bell to either of you?
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: That's, I gotta be honest.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: Not right off now.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: Not to me. Not right now. Okay.
• 23:30
  Speaker 6: He was a very curious kind of almost experimental avant-garde
• 23:34
  Speaker 6: comedian who pretended to be professor and then would give
• 23:38
  Speaker 6: lectures on different topics in a very crazed kind of,
• 23:42
  Speaker 6: do you remember like the way Einstein had his hair
• 23:45
  Speaker 6: all crazy?
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 23:47
  Speaker 6: That was, that was, so Erwin Corey, for some reason
• 23:51
  Speaker 6: is like, you know, I don't want to work seven
• 23:53
  Speaker 6: days a week. I don't want to work Monday through Sunday.
• 23:55
  Speaker 6: Can I get Sunday off? You know, I appreciate this
• 23:58
  Speaker 6: gig you're giving me here at the Playboy Club, but
• 24:02
  Speaker 6: I don't want to do it. So Hef, who had
• 24:07
  Speaker 6: seen Dick Gregory, he was the host of this club
• 24:10
  Speaker 6: called the Robert Show Club, which is a black club
• 24:12
  Speaker 6: in Chicago, and said, well, why don't we give this
• 24:16
  Speaker 6: kid a chance for $ 50? So we hired him that night,
• 24:20
  Speaker 6: and there were some Southern people in the crowd and
• 24:23
  Speaker 6: Dick Gregory got there late.
• 24:25
  Speaker 7: It was snowing, gets on stage and just kills it.
• 24:28
  Speaker 6: Like all of his instincts are 100% correct on how
• 24:33
  Speaker 6: to handle these crowds, how to talk about race, how
• 24:36
  Speaker 6: to talk about the fact that he had been in
• 24:39
  Speaker 6: the South and he did the joke, you know, I
• 24:40
  Speaker 6: spent four weeks there, one night or that kind of
• 24:43
  Speaker 6: thing and kills it.
• 24:45
  Speaker 7: And then immediately like, oh, let's hire this guy.
• 24:48
  Speaker 6: And in a way, that's the first time African-American comedian
• 24:53
  Speaker 6: had been hired in a white nightclub with a couple exceptions.
• 24:57
  Speaker 6: But that, yeah, but that was a big thing. But
• 24:59
  Speaker 6: there's more to the story. Can I keep going?
• 25:00
  Speaker 7: Oh, please, please.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: We're on the edge of our seat here, actually.
• 25:04
  Speaker 6: So Dick Gregory starts, you know, he had never heard
• 25:07
  Speaker 6: of making $ 50 a night times seven. Like that was
• 25:11
  Speaker 6: like out of the, it was mind blowing to him
• 25:13
  Speaker 6: that he could be making this much money doing comedy.
• 25:16
  Speaker 6: And word spreads quickly about this kid who, who is
• 25:20
  Speaker 6: doing great at the Playboy Club. So the New York
• 25:22
  Speaker 6: Times luckily writes a review of it and then Time Magazine.
• 25:28
  Speaker 6: And this is where the story gets really interesting to me.
• 25:31
  Speaker 6: Dick Gregory's dream was to be on The Tonight Show
• 25:35
  Speaker 6: with Jack Parr. That was the big break, that he
• 25:39
  Speaker 6: was the Carson before Carson.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: Of course.
• 25:42
  Speaker 6: So he was friends with this singer named Billy Eckstein,
• 25:46
  Speaker 6: another guy you're not going to know.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: But- All right.
• 25:50
  Speaker 6: A famous 40s, 50s singer. And Billy was like, I
• 25:54
  Speaker 6: don't know if you noticed this. Whenever there's a black
• 25:57
  Speaker 6: comedian on Jack Parr, he lets them do their act.
• 26:02
  Speaker 6: And that would usually be like an impression. It's like
• 26:04
  Speaker 6: he had George Kirby on that kind of thing. But
• 26:07
  Speaker 6: he would never bring him over to the couch to
• 26:09
  Speaker 6: sit down like he's just a normal American comedian.
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: Well, in general, getting brought over to the couch is
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: the dream of any comic doing the late show, doing
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: a late show like that. Yeah, yeah.
• 26:19
  Speaker 7: No question. No question. No question.
• 26:21
  Speaker 6: But when this Time magazine article hits, Jack Parr, producer,
• 26:26
  Speaker 6: calls Dick Gregory and is like, we'd love to have
• 26:29
  Speaker 6: you on the show. And he's like, I'm not going
• 26:31
  Speaker 6: to do the show unless you let me sit down
• 26:33
  Speaker 6: and talk to Jack Parr.
• 26:35
  Speaker 7: Because he had never even thought of this.
• 26:38
  Speaker 6: He never realized until Billy Eckstein pointed it out to him.
• 26:43
  Speaker 6: that this was a thing that Jack Parr was doing,
• 26:45
  Speaker 6: whether consciously or unconsciously. So the producer was like, well,
• 26:49
  Speaker 6: you know, that's not the way it works.
• 26:51
  Speaker 7: You do a set.
• 26:51
  Speaker 6: If it goes well, you might come back and do
• 26:53
  Speaker 6: another set. He's like, well, then I'm not doing your show.
• 26:56
  Speaker 6: And then apparently a couple, a day later, the producer's like, fine,
• 27:01
  Speaker 6: you can do the show and we'll talk to you.
• 27:03
  Speaker 6: And so, Again, I keep going back to this emotional
• 27:07
  Speaker 6: IQ of how to handle this situation and parlaying what little–
• 27:11
  Speaker 6: I mean, you can imagine. He's just playing the Playboy Club.
• 27:15
  Speaker 6: What little power he had to get what he wanted,
• 27:19
  Speaker 6: and that was also a breakthrough moment. And then he
• 27:22
  Speaker 6: became like a hero, and that's the moment. That's why
• 27:26
  Speaker 6: we're talking to you right now, like that moment. And
• 27:29
  Speaker 6: then everything changed from there.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: I have a question before because, yes, everything changes from there.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: But there's one question I wanted to clarify here, especially
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: with the tonight show with Jack Parr. It sounds like
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: there was an emotional calculation on his part or at
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: least some very clever diplomacy because didn't they invite him
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: more than once and eventually like, parr finally called him
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: right that's that's the thing that got me about it because.
• 28:00
  Speaker 6: Oh is there more to that that might be right
• 28:01
  Speaker 6: you're saying that that before like parr just wanting him
• 28:05
  Speaker 6: on the show eventually parr calls him personally and he
• 28:08
  Speaker 6: says to jack parr who we idolized i'm not going
• 28:11
  Speaker 6: to do the show unless you have me on is
• 28:12
  Speaker 6: that correct.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: That's what that's what uh that's what i had heard
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: i wanted to see that source because to me if
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: that's if that's what happens what's fascinating about that is
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: that it gets to a point where it's kind of
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: leveraging maybe the ego of the host of the show,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: because they're like, you know, I'm this huge show. What
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: this guy's too good. What gives, you know?
• 28:35
  Speaker 7: Yeah. I, I, you know, I will look into that.
• 28:37
  Speaker 6: Cause I did, we didn't go into, we just more,
• 28:40
  Speaker 6: we're talking about the club, but, and I do know
• 28:43
  Speaker 6: that he turned down the show. I don't remember the
• 28:46
  Speaker 6: jackpot himself call, but that could be absolutely correct. And
• 28:50
  Speaker 6: if that is, I mean, there's also, if you think
• 28:53
  Speaker 6: about it, there was like this thing about black people
• 28:58
  Speaker 6: and being pushy and uppity and all like that was
• 29:01
  Speaker 6: like a way to like marginalize a lot of those guys.
• 29:05
  Speaker 6: So I like that he was willing to risk that,
• 29:08
  Speaker 6: all of that to sit.
• 29:11
  Speaker 7: Down on the couch with Paul.
• 29:12
  Speaker 6: And Paul ended up loving him and having on the
• 29:14
  Speaker 6: show numerous times. And that, as we like to say
• 29:18
  Speaker 6: on our show, blew open the gates to- having African-Americans
• 29:23
  Speaker 6: not only on the show, but older African-Americans finally getting
• 29:28
  Speaker 6: a shot on television and stuff.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: Well, we've heard Dick Gregory later in his life describing
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: this period, but we haven't heard any of his comedy.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: And I think we should hear a little moment of
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: one of the bits. that might have been something he
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: would have performed on the Jack Parr show.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: You know, I feel so sorry for Willie. I hate
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: to see any baseball player having troubles, but that's a great.
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: Sport for my people.
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: That is the only sport in the world where a
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: Negro can shake a stick at a white man and
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: won't start no ride. LAUGHTER Of course, now, don't get
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: me wrong now.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: We're doing all right.
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: Now, at the rate we're going 10 years from now,
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: you might have to be my color to get a job.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: If you get me right, I'll get in there and
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: raise taxes on you. I mean, now, don't get me wrong.
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't mind paying my income tax if I knew
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: it was going to a friendly country. And we have
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: a lot of racial prejudice up north, but we're so
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: clever with it. Take my hometown, Chicago. I mean, you
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: can't see it just.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: Going in there.
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: When Negroes in Chicago move into one large area and
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: it looks like we might control the votes, they don't
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: say anything to us. They have a slum clearance. You
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: do the same thing on the West Coast, but you
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: call it freeways.
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: So what we've done here so far is trace this
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: guy's evolution to the gates. And then when they were
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: blown open, as you said, he could have, if we
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: want to speculate— he could have done what some people
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: decide to do when they're successful in entertainment and just
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: stayed in that lane and just, you know, worked on
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: comedy and honed his craft and then eventually, you know,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: retired or just exclusively gone on to do Comedy Central
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: roast or something. But he took it a step further.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: And you mentioned this earlier, Wayne, when you say everything changed.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: So what changed exactly? What was Dick Gregory's next phase
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: in life?
• 31:26
  Speaker 7: Well, Two things.
• 31:27
  Speaker 6: When I say that everything changed, I meant that everything
• 31:29
  Speaker 6: changed in stand up in that now Americans, club owners,
• 31:35
  Speaker 6: TV bookers were interested in the voices of African-American comedians.
• 31:41
  Speaker 6: That's what I meant by everything changed. So you now
• 31:44
  Speaker 6: had like suddenly Nipsey Russell is on television a lot
• 31:48
  Speaker 6: more and, you know, Slappy White and these older comedians
• 31:52
  Speaker 6: like Moms Mabley and Pig Meat Markham. like suddenly they
• 31:57
  Speaker 6: have a resurgence because people are kind of curious about
• 32:00
  Speaker 6: this world of comedy. And there's, you know, this underground
• 32:04
  Speaker 6: world of dirty records with, you know, Red Fox and
• 32:07
  Speaker 6: Lawanda Page and all of those people.
• 32:09
  Speaker 7: So it's just, it's.
• 32:10
  Speaker 6: Like kind of like if you go to the African-American
• 32:13
  Speaker 6: Museum at the Smithsonian and they show you the clips
• 32:16
  Speaker 6: of the comedians from that era, they're all post-1960. Like
• 32:20
  Speaker 6: they're all post-1961 when he broke through. Like they're all,
• 32:25
  Speaker 6: and a lot of people were getting sets and jobs.
• 32:28
  Speaker 6: So it was just a, it was a bit of a,
• 32:30
  Speaker 6: a great kind of resurgence. And then through those doors
• 32:34
  Speaker 6: walks Flip Wilson and Bill Cosby. And then Richard Pryor,
• 32:39
  Speaker 6: Richard Pryor makes his television debut in 1964. That's only
• 32:42
  Speaker 6: three years after this moment. It's like, it's a real like, okay,
• 32:47
  Speaker 6: now we're on, everything's changed and comedians and audiences are
• 32:52
  Speaker 6: ready to accept as Dick Gregory liked to say, Just
• 32:57
  Speaker 6: one person talking flat footed on stage to a white crowd.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: And then what were like he continued to work as
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: a comic, right? To great acclaim.
• 33:08
  Speaker 6: He was suddenly making a lot of money. He hired
• 33:10
  Speaker 6: a couple of writers to help him create more material
• 33:14
  Speaker 6: because he was really in demand. He put out records.
• 33:17
  Speaker 6: He's like he's a thing. Dick Gregory is a thing.
• 33:20
  Speaker 6: And then he gets very involved with the civil rights movement. movement,
• 33:25
  Speaker 6: which don't forget, I mean, this is before the Voting
• 33:28
  Speaker 6: Rights Act and before the Housing Act and all of that.
• 33:31
  Speaker 6: So this is before Martin Luther King in 1963 makes
• 33:34
  Speaker 6: the big speech. So he starts marching with Martin Luther
• 33:40
  Speaker 6: King and making speeches and raising money. And what happens
• 33:44
  Speaker 6: is he starts canceling nightclub dates and basically says, like, look,
• 33:51
  Speaker 6: I can do these jokes and I can do these
• 33:53
  Speaker 6: jokes these guys wrote for me and this is all great,
• 33:55
  Speaker 6: but there's a bigger wave that I'm involved with now.
• 34:00
  Speaker 6: And that basically kind of like marginalized his standup act
• 34:04
  Speaker 6: and made him this civil rights icon at the time.
• 34:07
  Speaker 6: So we basically canceled tens of thousands of dollars worth
• 34:11
  Speaker 6: of gigs so he could be involved with this movement
• 34:14
  Speaker 6: and would talk about it. And then he became sort
• 34:17
  Speaker 6: of identified with that and Because he was doing that,
• 34:21
  Speaker 6: opened the door again for like the Cosbys and Flip
• 34:25
  Speaker 6: Wilson and, you.
• 34:27
  Speaker 7: Know, Pryor and all of those gentlemen.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: But then he essentially, you know, so those floodgates were open.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: All those folks stepped in to kind of fill that vacuum.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: And then he kind of walked away from this career
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: in a lot of ways. I mean, maybe not entirely,
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: but he clearly had bigger fish to fry. He had
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: higher priorities, a higher calling, you could say.
• 34:46
  Speaker 7: No question. No question.
• 34:47
  Speaker 6: And that really motivated him very much. And then I
• 34:50
  Speaker 6: think in a way it hurt his career, his standup career.
• 34:53
  Speaker 7: And I also, for some reason, I just don't.
• 34:56
  Speaker 6: Know if he was that dedicated to standup once he
• 35:01
  Speaker 6: had sort of cracked this code and was like, okay,
• 35:04
  Speaker 6: I can do this and I can release these albums.
• 35:07
  Speaker 6: I can make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year
• 35:09
  Speaker 6: and where I used to make, you know, $ 5.
• 35:12
  Speaker 7: Doing this, this gig.
• 35:14
  Speaker 6: And yeah, He just– he was very much motivated in
• 35:18
  Speaker 6: racial equality, which is– I could understand that, which I'm
• 35:22
  Speaker 6: sure what he had to endure growing up in that
• 35:24
  Speaker 6: time period.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: We followed some of his work in this field, in
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: the civil rights movement. He also was advocating for the
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: rights of Native Americans and for gender equality, which We
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: found a couple of stories. One that really stood out
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: was he even got the attention of J. Edgar Hoover
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: at one point when he ran for president in 1968,
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: which I had no idea he actually ran for president.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: But the rumor is from documents that came out later
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: that J. Edgar Hoover considered Dick Gregory such a threat
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: that he ordered the Chicago office of the FBI to
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: contact the mob to neutralize.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, quote-unquote neutralize, whatever that means.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe it's something less sinister, to neutralize him during
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: that race. And I guess I wanted to ask you,
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: given what you said earlier about the biggest comedy club
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: or white nightclub in Chicago being run by the mob,
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: was the mob still really active in Chicago and the
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: comedy scene in the 60s?
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 36:43
  Speaker 6: I mean, it was starting to fade away a little
• 36:46
  Speaker 6: bit as these other rooms opened up. But basically, the
• 36:49
  Speaker 6: nightclub era, which started right after the end of Prohibition
• 36:54
  Speaker 6: and vaudeville dropping, a lot of nightclubs across the United States, South, North, Southwest, Northwest,
• 37:01
  Speaker 6: were mob-run organizations. One of the most famous in New
• 37:04
  Speaker 6: York was a room called the Copacabana, which you see
• 37:08
  Speaker 6: in these– Scorsese movies all the time but that was
• 37:13
  Speaker 6: they had the biggest headliners Martin Lewis and those guys
• 37:16
  Speaker 6: would perform there Sammy Davis with the Wilmaston trio and
• 37:21
  Speaker 6: those dudes were all mob run and then mob ran
• 37:24
  Speaker 6: obviously Las Vegas and then had their hooks deeply into
• 37:29
  Speaker 6: uh Miami which was also this big scene I mean
• 37:33
  Speaker 6: I guess the only place the mob didn't really run
• 37:36
  Speaker 6: too much was the uh the Borscht Belt up in
• 37:39
  Speaker 6: the mountains of the Adirondacks, upstate New York, where kind
• 37:43
  Speaker 6: of like Jewish comedians were performed there during the summers.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: Let's move on really quickly to a very important event
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: in the Freedom Summer or the 1964 Freedom Summer in Mississippi,
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: where all these marches took place. This is a very
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: big kind of high watermark point for the civil rights movement.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: There is a bombing of a church called the Mount
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: Zion Church, and three young men are sent to investigate it. Goodman, Cheney,
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: and Schwerner, and they do not come back alive. They
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: are murdered by members of the Ku Klux Klan and
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: Deputy Sheriff Cecil Ray Price. This is all proven, who
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: is also a Klansman. And basically, Dick Gregory goes there,
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: confronts the sheriff, and sticks his finger in his face
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: and says, I know you did this, and we're going
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: to pin it on you. And he reaches out to
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: Hugh Hefner, who puts up $ 25, 000 of 1964 money which
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: is no chump change for a reward for anyone that
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: can lead to the arrest or proof that these men
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: had something to do with it and to find the bodies.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: There is conjecture that the FBI already knew where the
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: bodies were. They just didn't want to create a giant storm.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: And so they kept quiet. And essentially, Gregory, with the
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: help of his friend Hugh Hefner, took these men to
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: task and everyone essentially, I mean, the degrees to which
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: they were punished, you could kind of argue were not
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: nearly fitting the crime, but they were exposed. And that
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: brings us around to Hefner kind of, I don't know,
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: you think of him as this kind of impresario of
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: smut or something like that. But as you said, he
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: was very interested. He was very progressive. He was all
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: about literature and good writing. And people joke about, oh,
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: I only read Playboy for the articles. But there's... a
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: lot of truth to that. I mean some of the
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: greatest writers of all time have gotten their start writing
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: shorts for Playboy or articles or having short stories published.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: So it absolutely has a place in that kind of canon. And–
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: More recently, Dick Gregory, unfortunately, we lost several years ago,
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: but near the end of his life, he participated in
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: a roast of Hugh Hefner, and he had a really
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: interesting quote.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: In 2001, right, during the roast of Hugh Hefner, he
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: actually went beyond the typical insult stuff, right? And I
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: think this is what you had mentioned earlier, Wayne, where
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: he says, You had a courage when no one was
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: bringing in blacks and minorities and let you stand flat
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: footed in America and just talk. You brought me in.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: You didn't give me a lecture. You gave me no instructions.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: I come here tonight not to roast you, but to
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: say that had you not had the guts back then,
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: we black comics that the world has been able to
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: look at and understand our genius, we would be in
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: some pot roasting in debt, knowing we were never going
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: to make it. And I have to ask because that's
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: such a powerful statement.
• 40:40
  Speaker 7: It is to this day.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Were they like friends past the business stuff, past
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: like the giving the start? Because that's a very personal,
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: sincere statement. Did they interact throughout his career in activism
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: as well as comedy?
• 40:58
  Speaker 7: Well, I know this.
• 41:00
  Speaker 6: I know in 1962– When Lenny Bruce got arrested at
• 41:06
  Speaker 6: the Gate of Horn, which was this little club also
• 41:08
  Speaker 6: in Chicago that Hef put up his bail money and
• 41:12
  Speaker 6: just felt like what Bruce is trying to do with language,
• 41:16
  Speaker 6: I'm trying to do with, you know, with literature here.
• 41:20
  Speaker 6: Like show, use satire and language and cartoons to sort
• 41:25
  Speaker 6: of elevate this art, not only the humor, but the
• 41:28
  Speaker 6: conversation about America in general. So I know he's always
• 41:32
  Speaker 6: been an activist in that. I don't know how close
• 41:35
  Speaker 6: they were through the years. I know that there's dozens
• 41:39
  Speaker 6: of Dick Gregory interviews where he thanks Hugh Hefner for
• 41:44
  Speaker 6: having the courage to put him on that stage and
• 41:47
  Speaker 6: or the foresight to put him on that stage. So
• 41:51
  Speaker 6: I know he was like extremely grateful. Obviously, what happens is,
• 41:55
  Speaker 6: I hate to say this, the Playboy clubs were basically
• 41:58
  Speaker 6: like Dick Gregory immediately got bigger than the Playboy clubs,
• 42:02
  Speaker 6: which became this circuit. There was like 20 of them
• 42:05
  Speaker 6: all over the United States.
• 42:06
  Speaker 7: Phoenix, St. Louis, you know.
• 42:08
  Speaker 6: So Miami, New Orleans, Boston, New York. So he was
• 42:13
  Speaker 6: already too big to play the Playboy circuit. So I
• 42:17
  Speaker 6: don't know if that was a thing between the two
• 42:20
  Speaker 6: of them.
• 42:20
  Speaker 7: I'm not sure.
• 42:21
  Speaker 6: But I've heard Dick Gregory numerous times thank Hugh Hefner
• 42:26
  Speaker 6: for that moment.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, he really did kind of go
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: out on a limb when he, you know, he did
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: kind of have the world, you know, on a platter
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: at that point because of, like you said, the Playboy
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: magazine just printing money and kind of having a sense
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: that he was untouchable. And that's really important. But also
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: any other person could have done something completely different with
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: that kind of success and that kind of power. And
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: he instead took a chance and went out on a
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: limb when he didn't have to. And without that moment,
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: Dick Gregory wouldn't have had the platform to affect such
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: social change that he did, not to mention blowing the
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: doors wide open for black comics, you know, around the world.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:02
  Speaker 6: It's a, it's an incredible story and it all happens
• 43:05
  Speaker 6: in this, you know, in this little club in Chicago,
• 43:09
  Speaker 6: in the middle of winter, January, 1961, there's a snow
• 43:14
  Speaker 6: storm and these takes a bus to the gig and
• 43:17
  Speaker 6: he gets off on the wrong stop. The whole story
• 43:20
  Speaker 6: is just crap. So he's running through the snow and
• 43:22
  Speaker 6: he's slipping and he's never been to the playboy club.
• 43:24
  Speaker 6: So he doesn't know exactly where it is. And then
• 43:27
  Speaker 6: he gets there and yeah, he gets on stage and
• 43:32
  Speaker 6: does his thing. As you just reflect on like his
• 43:36
  Speaker 6: use of language and the casualness of his performance. And
• 43:41
  Speaker 6: he is just like, this is his moment.
• 43:43
  Speaker 7: And he absolutely embraces it.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: And speaking of speaking of thanking and speaking of moments,
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: you know, we can we can thank Hugh Hefner the
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: way that Dick Gregory did. But we also have to admit,
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: you know, this wouldn't have been near as big a
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: moment had Dick Gregory not been such a talented writer,
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: performer and comic. So I don't want to get away
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: from how just objectively good the guy is.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: And also so savvy. I think it's not to be
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: overlooked that he wasn't rolling over when he kind of
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: did these maybe a little bit more palatable performances for
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: white audiences. he was being smart. He was reading the
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: room in a way that was able to like keep
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: him in the game. And, you know, as his comedy progressed,
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: I guess, or as his career progressed and he was
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: able to take more risks, you know, he was very
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: outspoken about race and politics and all of that, even
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: in his acts.
• 44:41
  Speaker 7: No question.
• 44:42
  Speaker 6: Again, it goes back to what we were speaking about
• 44:44
  Speaker 6: earlier about you said savvy. I said, you know, emotional IQ.
• 44:48
  Speaker 6: Like he just, I felt like he had a, a
• 44:51
  Speaker 6: really heightened level of like how to play these situations.
• 44:56
  Speaker 6: And he had seen, if I'm not mistaken, sometimes they
• 44:59
  Speaker 6: would have like, I don't know if it was Sammy
• 45:02
  Speaker 6: Davis at this Robert Show Club, and he watched Nipsey
• 45:06
  Speaker 6: Russell play a crowd. And sometimes they would get white
• 45:09
  Speaker 6: crowds coming into the Robert Show Club, which was a
• 45:12
  Speaker 6: black club, but they would let white people in, obviously.
• 45:16
  Speaker 6: So I think he had seen some other black comedians
• 45:20
  Speaker 6: like work the room. And he's like, okay, I think
• 45:23
  Speaker 6: I know how to crack this, this code. I think
• 45:26
  Speaker 6: I know the combination, uh, that, that'll, that'll make it work.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: So this, this is a watershed pivotal moment, uh, in,
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: in comedy and in American society overall, uh, you know,
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: longtime listeners know one thing that, uh, that I never
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: shy away from a Noel. I don't think you shy
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: away from it either. is admitting when we need to
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: know more about something. So thank you so much, Wayne Fetterman,
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: for introducing not just us, but our audience to Dick
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: Gregory and talking to us, even though you established pretty
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: early on in today's episode that you would always rather
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: be talking to Casey.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: That's fair. We feel the same way. Trust me. I
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: want to really quick, I just tell a very, very
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: short story. I, uh, had an interesting privilege to– I
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: was a reporter for public radio when I lived in Augusta, Georgia,
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: and I got to cover the funeral of James Brown.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: And Dick Gregory actually spoke and gave a eulogy at
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: James Brown's funeral, and I was not aware of him,
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: and that was the very first time I had ever
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: heard of this man. And I really thought of him
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: much more– all the research I did, which wasn't much,
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: that he was much more of an activist. So hearing
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: this completed part of his story– It's really fascinating. But
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: he gave a really powerful speech at James Brown's funeral.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: It was really interesting to see him kind of in
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: the flesh and a really fascinating man. Very, very glad
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: to know more about him. So thank you, Wayne, for
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: hipping us to this story.
• 46:58
  Speaker 7: Well, you know, I'm just– you're welcome.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: So, Wayne, at this point, people have heard us mention
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: your podcast that you do with your co-host, Andrew Stephen.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: I just want to let everybody know that the history
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: of Stand Up Season 2 is coming out now as
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: we speak. It hasn't all been released yet, though, right?
• 47:24
  Speaker 7: That is correct.
• 47:25
  Speaker 6: We are still editing, interviewing people, putting things together for
• 47:29
  Speaker 6: this season.
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: So the last episode I listened to, if you're interested
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: in hearing more about the Playboy circuit, is Season 2,
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: Episode 2, which came out just a few days ago.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: as we record this, and it explores the story of
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: Hugh Hefner and Playboy magazine and how they became, this
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: is a quote here from your show, Wayne, how they
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: became unlikely champions for an era of comedy between nightclubs
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: and the comedy boom.
• 48:00
  Speaker 7: That's exactly, I can't believe I came up with something
• 48:02
  Speaker 7: that articulate.
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: That's great.
• 48:04
  Speaker 7: That's very succinct.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: You've done good.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: You've done good, Wayne. It's a great show. Where can
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: folks find that? What's the best way to pull that up? I.
• 48:13
  Speaker 6: The classic, wherever you get your podcast, whether it's, you know,
• 48:18
  Speaker 6: on iTunes or Stitcher.
• 48:20
  Speaker 7: I'm not sure, whatever. It's, it's everywhere.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: It's there. It's out there.
• 48:24
  Speaker 7: Yeah. Yeah. It's easy to get. It's easy to get.
• 48:27
  Speaker 6: And thank you very much for, listening to it. I, um,
• 48:31
  Speaker 6: you know, I, this is a, I'm passionate about this,
• 48:34
  Speaker 6: but I, I just don't know how many people are
• 48:35
  Speaker 6: really interested in the history of standup as opposed to
• 48:39
  Speaker 6: standups now, you know, that, you know, talk about their
• 48:42
  Speaker 6: careers and stuff.
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: I've actually, I've been keeping note here. I'll, I'll confess
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: there were a couple of older comics that you had
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: mentioned in the course of today's episode where I was
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: writing them down. I was like, Oh wait, I've got
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: to look that guy up. I got to see if
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: I can hear something. So I've got some homework today
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: and I'll probably be posting some stuff about this on
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: our own Ridiculous History Facebook page or Instagram. You can
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: find us there. You can also find us on Twitter. Wayne,
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: I'm going to volunteer you. It looks like you are
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: also available on Twitter at Fetterman.
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: Correct.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: And if you want to find me, and Ben individually,
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: we keep up a pretty decent Instagram profile. I am
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: at HowNowNoelBrown.
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: And you can see me getting kicked into and out
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: of various countries at Ben Bolin. Yeah, that's true. That's true.
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: Don't make fun of me.
• 49:33
  Speaker 7: I love it.
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: I love it.
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: So that is our show, everyone. Thank you so much
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: for tuning in. We'd love to hear your take in
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: some of your favorite comics throughout history, right?
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. Thanks to super producer Casey Pegram. Thanks to Alex Williams,
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: who composed our theme. Big thanks to Christopher Haciotis, who
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: is here in spirit. and Jonathan Strickland, who, you know,
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: he can take a long walk off a short pier.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: Big thanks to Jonathan Strickland, a.k.a. The Quizster. I know
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: you and I don't see eye to eye on that.
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: And big thanks to Wayne, and thank you so much, folks,
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: for listening.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: We'll see you next time. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio,
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: listen to your favorite shows.