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Mega Edition: Alan Dershowitz Offers Kohberger Some Unsolicited Legal Advice (9/28/26) · Beyond The Horizon

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome back to the program. On
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to hear from Alan, I kept
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: my underpants on Dershowitz, about the murders in Idaho and
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: how the defense should go about putting together a tangible
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: defense for Brian Koberger.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Now, if anyone is going to know.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: How to defend an evil scuzzball, who is accused of
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: murdering four people in cold blood?
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: It would certainly be Alan Dershowitz.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: You want to talk about a rogues gallery of people
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: he has defended, and we can go on all day.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: From OJ Simpson to Jeffrey Epstein, this guy has defended
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: just about every scuzzy person that you can imagine. So
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: if you want an inside look at how you formulate
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: a scumbag plan, well.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: Mr.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: I Kept My Underpants has to be at the top
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: of the list. So let's see what Alan Dershowitz had
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: to say to Law and Crime about Brian Koberger. Headline,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Alan Dershowitz outlines possible defense tactics for alleged Idaho student murderer.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: This article was authored by Alyssa Fisher. The man charged
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: with the murders of four University of Idaho students in
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: November was faces a veritable mountain of evidence against him,
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: according to the police. But at least one prominent defense
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: attorney says that's only one side of the story.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Well, of course it is.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: We haven't heard anything from Brian Koberger or his attorneys.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: But what we have saw from the authorities is damning
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: as hell. And while everyone has a right to due process...
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: The evidence that has been presented is so strong that
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: it's very difficult to try and understand or wrap your
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: mind around what sort of plausible defense he thinks he's
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: going to come up with. When the probable cause affidavit
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: for the arrest of Brian Koberger was unsealed on January 5th,
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: legal experts told Law and Crime that they believed it
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: contained several bad facts for the defendant, including DNA evidence
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: linking him to the grisly scene. And we're going to
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: talk more about DNA later on in another episode and
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: how it's the gold standard of science, but it's not infallible.
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: And that's going to be the meat and the potatoes
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: for the defense. They're going to try and punch holes
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: in that DNA, whether it be the DNA itself, how
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: it was collected, how it was handled, how it was managed.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: That's what they're going to do as far as the
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: defense goes. And they're going to try and destroy the
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: credibility of that DNA. But it is an uphill task
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: considering what they have found and what we don't even
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: know yet. Remember, we don't even know if they match
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: that footprint that they found at the crime scene to
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: Brian Koberger yet. But attorney Allen, I kept my underpants
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: on Dershowitz, who was part of OJ Simpson's dream team
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: and part of the team that got Jeffrey Epstein off,
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: by the way. notes that the affidavit presents only the
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: prosecution's account of the events. And again, that's all we're
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: really going to get until we get to the trial
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: phase of this. With the gag order, that means that
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: the defense, well, they can't go running to the media either.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: And they were the ones who initiated that gag order
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: in the first place. So if anyone thinks that we're
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: going to get anything from Ann Taylor and the defense team,
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: I don't think they've been paying attention. So, of course,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: all the public has is the probable cause affidavit and
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: the evidence that has been released so far by the authorities.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: In an extended interview with Law and Crime Sidebar podcast,
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Dershowitz broke down the affidavit connecting arrested suspect Brian Koberger
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: to the November 13th fatal stabbings of four University of
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: Idaho students and shared his top defenses of the alleged
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: quadruple murderer.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: Now, look.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: When Alan I kept my underpants on Dershowitz can't come
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: up with a tangible defense for you, a viable defense
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: for you, you're cooked because this guy has never met
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: a scummy tactic that he didn't like. The document narrows
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: in on Koberger, so the defense first step should be
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: to begin developing their own evidence, Dershowitz explained. You always
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: assume your client is guilty, and then you work back
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: from there. I'm going to surprise people when I say
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: that a good criminal defense lawyer always starts with the
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: presumption of guilt, not a presumption of innocence, Dershowitz continued. Well,
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: if you are defending the clients that Dershowitz defended, then
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: I would think that's probably the best place to start, right?
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Because remember, it's not about guilt or innocence when you
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: get to this level. It's about technicalities and loopholes. And
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: that's what these lawyers are looking to do. They're trying
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: to manipulate all of the loopholes and all of the
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: technicalities when they know that their client is guilty. And
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: we've seen it time and time again. Sometimes the strategy
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: works if the federal government or the government that's doing
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: the prosecuting isn't on their game. But more times than not,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: it's a strategy of a last resort. And you see
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: it employed when people have no chance of defending their innocence.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: If you assume your client is innocent, you'll make mistakes.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: You'll allow searches. You will allow him to speak to
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: the police. Then you always keep in mind the possibility
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: of a plea bargain. This is difficult in a case
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: like this, where there are so many deaths and so
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: brutal that the lawyers, whoever they are, really have their
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: work cut out for them. And yeah, I doubt the
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: state would even want to enter into a plea agreement
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: at this point. They're pretty confident in the evidence that
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: they've collected, and they're pretty confident that that evidence that
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: turned into an indictment is going to turn into a conviction.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: The affidavit listed evidence like cell phone records and the
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: suspected car's proximity to the victim's house, which Dershowitz calls
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: But in the totality of it all put together, that's
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: when it's damning, right? If you just looked at it
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: in piecemeal and looked at it in one separate incident
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: and then another separate incident, you could write it off
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: to Koberger just being a weird-ass dude. But when you
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: put everything together that we know, even though it's circumstantial,
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: it all adds up to something much bigger. And when
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: you put it all together, it all points to Brian
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: Koberger being the person who is allegedly responsible for these murders.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: You're looking to try to explain away the physical, indisputable
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: evidence in a way that presents the possibility of innocence
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: or at least reasonable doubt, Dershowitz said. This, Dershowitz suggests,
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: could be done by putting all other parties on the stand.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: Often putting the police on trial, putting the prosecution on trial,
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: and deflecting attention away from the defendant toward other people
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: can be an approach that's worth pursuing as well, Dershowitz explained. Again,
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: attack the process. Attack the accusers. In the Epstein case,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: attack the people who came forward, the girls who came forward,
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: and destroy their credibility. And that's the route you go
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: if you're somebody like Dershowitz and you know that your
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: client is not innocent. You're going to attack the process.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: You're going to attack the police. You're going to attack
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: the investigation. And hell, you'll even attack the people who
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: are doing the accusing. In this case, they can't do
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: that because obviously they've been murdered. But A lot of
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: times you'll see these lawyers in big time cases say
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: it's a sexual assault case. Oh, they'll go after the
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: woman's credibility like you wouldn't believe. And I don't mean
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: in a fair manner either. A lot of times a
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: lawyer like Dershowitz, they'll just steamroll over people. And it's
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: all about the connections. When you have the connections of
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: somebody like Dershowitz, it has nothing to do. It has
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: nothing to do with his prowess in the courtroom. It
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: has to do with the people he knows, the connections
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: he has, and the points he can make to those
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: people so that it doesn't even escalate to a trial.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: Because the whole idea is to get you off with
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: a slap on the wrist like he did his buddy
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein. However, this is a completely different matter, and
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: I don't see how Koberger is going to wiggle his
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: way off this one, folks. Koberger also has to be
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: questioned as he's the most important witness, Dershowitz said. He
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: may have reason why his cell phone was off or
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: explain that he frequents that area of Moscow, Idaho, which
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: is not unreasonable given that he lives about 10 miles away. Yeah,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: how's he going to explain that? the directness of going
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: to that house, or at least being triangulated in that
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: direct vicinity, or the fact that, according to those pings,
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: he went back the next day. You see, if it
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: was just one thing, it would be a lot easier
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: for Kohlberger to explain it away. But we're dealing with
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: a whole host of issues that are pointing to him
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: being a murderer. In the end, it may be that
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: he had a relationship, Dershowitz continued. We have no real
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: evidence of this with any of the alleged victims or
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: their friends. Now, that would be the kind of defense
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: that you would try and set up here, right? Hey,
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: I was having a relationship with so-and-so, and I was
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: over there because she invited me. But you're going to
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: have to prove that. Anyone can say whatever they want,
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: but you're going to have to prove that to a jury.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: And how is he going to do that if there's
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: no evidence of it? I don't think that his word
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: is going to do it, folks. I don't think the
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: word of a man who is being accused of a
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: quadruple homicide, I don't think his word is going to
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: cut it in front of the jury. You're going to
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: need what we call receipts. So what you're looking for
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: is possible innocent explanations, or at least explanations that create
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: a reasonable doubt, he added. Koberger is charged with the
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: stabbing deaths of Ethan Chapin, Zanna Kern-Odle, Kaylee Gonsalves, Madison Mogan.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: The University of Idaho students were stabbed to death on
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: the second and third floors of a house near campus
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: in Moscow. Koberger, who was arrested on December 30th in Pennsylvania,
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: was a PhD student of criminology at Washington State University
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: and lived in nearby Pullman, about 10 miles away. The
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: affidavit noted that Koberger's DNA was found on a knife
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: sheath left behind, left beside one of the victims, which
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: Dershowitz said seems like very damning evidence. but not impossible
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: to challenge or dismiss. Of course he's going to say that,
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: but look, again, when you have Alan Dershowitz saying that
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: the evidence against you is damning, folks, that evidence is damning.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: This dude has never met a scumbag he didn't want
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: to defend. I won a case some years ago that
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: seemed like it was open and shut, and we found
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: out the lab had made mistake after mistake after mistake,
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: and our client was acquitted, Dershowitz said. And as of now,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: that's what Brian Koberger is going to have to rely on,
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: at least according to the evidence that has already been
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: made available. Because if he's going to try and defend
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: his innocence here, I don't know how he plans to
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: do it.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: I really don't.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: He explained that we'll have to wait until the trial
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: to learn the admissible evidence, the defenses, corroborating witnesses, or
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: Koberger's testimony if he decides to take the stand. We're
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: a long way away from being able to evaluate the
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: likely outcome, Dershowitz continued. However, based on the affidavit, he
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: has his own inkling. The likely outcome does, at this
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: point in time, point to probable guilt, he said. And
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: the American tradition of every defendant, particularly those who are
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: the most unpopular, deserves a zealous defense. So this man
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: should get a zealous defense. That doesn't guarantee an acquittal
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: or even a hung jury. All he's entitled to is
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: a zealous defense, not a verdict. And that's what he's
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: going to get from Ann Taylor. She's already proved herself
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: to be competent and he's going to get quality legal
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: advice from her. So I don't even think that's an issue.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: He's going to get a zealous defense. The question is,
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: what is that defense going to come up with that's
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: going to convince a jury that.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Brian Koberger is innocent?
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: And from where I'm sitting here in the peanut gallery
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: out in Las Vegas, well, it doesn't look like they're
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: going to be able to come up with much. And
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: it looks to me, unless there is some sort of
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: bombshell evidence that gets released at this trial, that Mr.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: I'm the smartest man in the room, Mr. Criminology, is
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: in fact not that smart, and he's either going to
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: face the death penalty or be sitting in a jail
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: cell rotting for the rest of his natural life. If
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: you'd like to contact me, you can do that at
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: bobbycapucci at protonmail.com. That's B-O-B-B-Y-C-A-P-U-C-C-I at protonmail.com. You can also
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at B-O-B-B-Y underscore C-A-P-U-C-C-I. The link
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: that I discussed can be found in the description box.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome back to the program. There's
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: been some confusion surrounding the traffic stops that were performed
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: on Brian Koberger and his father while they were in Indiana.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Now we're getting more information about those traffic stops. They
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: certainly make a lot more sense. We're hearing now that
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: the FBI actually requested that the police officers in Indiana
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: perform these stops so that they can get a better
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: look at Brian Koberger's hands. Now, that's a pretty shrewd
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: bit of police work there, if you're asking me. Instead
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: of tipping them off by having the FBI come up
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: and pull them over or question them or whatever, they
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: have the local police do it under the auspices of
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: it being a regular traffic stop. And that's why when
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: we look back on it now with context, we understand
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: there were no traffic citations issued.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Remember, we were talking about that a little bit.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: I was wondering why they wouldn't issue any traffic citations
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: or how the stops couldn't be notated in a computer
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: so somebody can go back and say, oh, yeah, here
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: they are. They were stopped at such and such a place. Well,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: it makes sense now because the FBI was involved, the
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: state police and the county police. They were just playing coy.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: They wanted to make sure that they played their part
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: and they played it well. That way the FBI could
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: get the information that they needed without Koberger.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: Being made aware.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: And the whole entire genesis is they were looking at
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: his hands to see, obviously, if he had any wounds,
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: any marks, any scars, anything of that nature that they
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: could say, hey, look, this wound is new and this
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: wound was probably acquired while committing these murders. That's what
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: they're looking to do. So this was a pretty decent
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: piece of police work by the FBI here to keep
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: things under wraps still so that they still had surprise
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: on their side. And that's crucial if you're going to
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: be raiding somebody's house, right? You don't want them to know,
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: especially if they're a dangerous murderer. You don't know what
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: they're capable of. So keeping things on the hush and
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: coming in by surprise is always the preferred method for
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: the FBI. And collecting data in this manner, certainly something
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: they do all the time as well. Look, the FBI
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: is always up to something. And if you're somebody that's
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: on their radar, you better believe they're going to compile
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: all the evidence. They're going to do everything that they
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: possibly can do to bring you down. And we see
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: that here. They certainly were working in coordination with the
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: local law enforcement as well as with Moscow PD to
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: not only get this video footage, but to surveil these guys,
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: Brian and his dad, all the way across the country.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: So we're talking about a vast operation with a lot
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: of moving parts that most certainly required a whole lot
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: of coordination. So today we have an article from the
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: New York Post talking about this and how it all
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: came to fruition. So let's dive into this article and
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: let's see what Yaron Steinbuch has for us. Headline, FBI
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: asked police to pull Brian Koberger over to get images
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: of his hands. The FBI reportedly tracked accused Idaho killer
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: Brian Koberger and his father as they drove from Washington
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: State University to Pennsylvania and asked Indiana cops to pull
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: him over to secure images of his hands. A law
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: enforcement source told Fox News that an FBI surveillance team
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: had its eye on the pair during their cross-country drive
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: last month when they were stopped twice for following too closely.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: So the feds, they asked the Indiana State Police to
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: help them out. And the Indiana State Police, obviously, they
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: get behind Brian Kohlberger after getting the license plate from
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: the FBI. They get behind him, pull him over under
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: the pretense of him following too closely. And then from there,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: they go about collecting the intelligence that they need to
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: continue on with their investigation into if Brian Kohlberger was
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: the man responsible for murdering these college students. The feds
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: had asked Indiana State Police to pull the white Hyundai
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: Elantra over on December 15th because they were seeking video
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: images of the murder suspect, including his hands, the source
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: told the outlet. And there was probably no other way
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: that they could get close to him to get this
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: sort of footage without tipping him off. And that's the
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: last thing you want to do is tip off somebody
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: like Brian Koberger, who you're trying to bring to justice.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: You know where he's at already. You know where he's going.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: So the police and the investigators, the last thing they
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: want to do is tip them off to the fact
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: that they're onto him. They don't want him to run.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: They don't want it to become some sort of fugitive
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: situation where he might hurt somebody else or where they
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: might not have eyes on him anymore. So this was
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: all part of a well thought out, well planned operation.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: At that time, authorities were still building the case against Koberger, 28,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: who was arrested at his parents' home in Albrightville, Pennsylvania,
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: and charged with four counts of murder. Police pulled him
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: over twice in quick succession on I-70 in Hancock County,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: outside of Indianapolis, for following too closely, officials said. So
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: while he was in Pullman, while he was in Moscow...
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: The police didn't have enough for a probable cause. So
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: they had to follow him across country and continue to
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: build their case. And when they finally got to the
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: point where they had that probable cause, they drew the
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: warrant in Idaho, but they carried it out in Pennsylvania.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: But it took them time to get that probable cause.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: And we were all talking about previous to this, if
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: they had anybody in their crosshairs. And I honestly didn't.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: think that they did. I thought they might have had
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: some people of interest at first, but had crossed them
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: all off. But they had Brian Koberger in their crosshairs
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: for quite some time. The problem was they didn't have
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: enough probable cause to swoop in and make an arrest.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: So that took some time. But eventually, after roughly six
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: weeks of investigations, the police say they have their guy.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: In both encounters, the officers let Kohlberger and his father,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: Michael Kohlberger, 67, drive off with a verbal warning. And
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: that is to be expected. If it's part of a
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: bigger operation, they're not going to issue a citation here.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: For what purpose?
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: They weren't even pulling them over on a real pretense. Now,
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: of course, the cop can say, well, I saw you
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: following too closely. And as a driver, what are you
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: going to say to that, right?
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay, great. Give me my ticket.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: But no ticket was issued in either of these encounters.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: And obviously now that we have hindsight to guide us,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: there was a reason for that. And that reason was
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: it was part of the larger investigation trying to find
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: probable cause on Brian Koberger so that they can enact
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: an arrest. Newly released body camera footage of one of
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: the traffic stops shows the pair looking jumpy as they
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: discussed a shooting at Coburgers University with an officer from
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: the Hancock County Sheriff's Office. So you're talking about this
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: shooting up there, but no mention of the Idaho murders, huh?
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: That's convenient.
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: Earlier that day, a SWAT team had killed a man
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: near Washington State University Pullman where Koberger had just finished
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: his first semester as a Ph.D. student after he threatened
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: to murder his roommates. Not Koberger, but the man in Pullman.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: And when that was happening, there was a lot of...
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: social media buzz wondering if perhaps this was the man
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: who was responsible for the murders in Moscow. Considering there
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: was a SWAT team there, tactical, people were trying to
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: piece it together. But it turned out it was just
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: a dude who had some kind of altercation with his
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: roommate and, well, threatened to murder them. But Brian Koberger's father,
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: on the drive across country when they got pulled over
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: on this body camera footage, was talking about that with
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: a police officer. And that's a bit ironic considering who
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: he's sitting next to and what his son is alleged
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: to have done. The incident was unrelated to the University
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: of Idaho murders. Kohlberger was arrested Friday in the shocking
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: November 13th crime in Moscow, Idaho, where Ethan Chapin, Zanna Kernodle,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Kaylee Gonsalves, and Madison Mogan were stabbed to death. On Tuesday,
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Kohlberger appeared in Pennsylvania court, where he agreed to be
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: extradited to Idaho. He arrived back in Idaho late Wednesday
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: and is expected to appear in court on Thursday. So
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: hopefully we'll get a look at those charging documents today
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: at some point and I'll pour through them and maybe
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: we'll just read them as they are right here on
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: the podcast. More details about the case are expected to
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: be released following his Idaho court appearance after which prosecutors
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: can make his probable cause affidavit public per local law.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Kohlberger's extradition attorney has said he plans to plead not
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: guilty and his family have urged the public not to
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: prejudge the suspect. Well, look, everybody is innocent until proven guilty.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: Everyone has the presumption of innocence, right? But when you
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: start working your way through these cases and you start
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: looking at evidence and you start looking at certain things
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: that are being revealed, well, you start to get an
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: idea one way or the other who you're dealing with
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: And if they're guilty or not, and right now we
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: don't have enough evidence for me to jump on board
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: and say, oh yeah, this dude's definitely guilty, but there's
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: a lot of circumstantial evidence that's pointing directly at Brian Koberger. Now,
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence is one thing. It's going to be up
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: to the investigators and the prosecutors to turn that circumstantial
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: evidence into evidence that could be submitted into the court
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: and and used by the prosecutors to help get the
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: prosecution that they're looking for. All right, folks, well, that's
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: going to do it for this one. If you'd like
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: to contact me, you can do that at BobbyCapucci at ProtonMail.com.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: That's B-O-B-B-Y-C-A-P-U-C-C-I at ProtonMail.com. You can also find me on
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Twitter at B-O-B-B-Y underscore C-A-P-U-C-C-I. The link that I discussed
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: can be found in the description box. What's up, everyone,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: and welcome back to the program. Brian Koberger had a
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: hearing yesterday, and to say that Judge Judge was not
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: happy with his legal team is an understatement. And this
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: all revolves around the fact that they sent out those
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: surveys that have the potential to spoil the jury pool
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: according to the judge. Well, Ann Taylor remained combative during
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: this hearing, and she was even admonished by the judge. So,
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: let's just dive right into the article, and let's get
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: caught up on what's going on with Brian Koberger. This
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: article was published by TheSpokesman.com and the headline, Judge in
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: UI Murder Case Rebukes Brian Kohlberger Defense Team for Juror
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: Phone Survey. So what in the world are you thinking,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: trying to have a survey like this, when there's a
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: gag order draped over this case? You can't talk about
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: even the basics of the case, but you're going to
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: be out here trying to conduct a survey? And I
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: get it, Ann Taylor's trying to do everything in her
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: power to defend her client, And that's what defense attorneys
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: are supposed to do. But this seems like it's a
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: bit too far. And if it wasn't for the gag order,
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: obviously things would be a little different. But with that
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: gag order in place, it puts a whole different set
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: of burdens upon everybody involved. So I don't know what
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: Ang Taylor and the defense team were thinking here coming
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: up with this idea. This article was authored by Kevin Fixler.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: The man charged with murder in the University of Idaho
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: student homicides returned to court Thursday for a hearing over
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: his defense, paying a survey, firm to contact potential jurors,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: as his attorneys try to build arguments that an impartial
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: jury is not possible in the county where the crime
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: took place. Loopholes, technicalities. And when you see somebody relying
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: on loopholes and technicalities in the manner that Kohlberger is,
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: that tells me everything I need to know about what
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: they think their chances are. Now don't get me wrong,
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: loopholes and technicalities should be part of your defense. But
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: when the whole entire thing is riding on loopholes and technicalities?
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: More times than not, that means you're guilty as hell.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Led by Latah County Prosecutor Bill Thompson, state attorneys objected
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: to public defenders for Brian Kohlberger asking certain types of
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: questions in a phone poll of 400 county residents who
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: could be called as jurors in the capital murder trial.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: Doing so could prejudice the local jury, Pooley argued, during
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: the hastily scheduled and lightly attended hearing. And let's not
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: forget it was Ann Taylor who asked for this gag
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: order to begin with. So now, the gag order that
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: you wanted, you're out here just stepping on it and
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: traipsing all over it and doing whatever you want? We
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: don't care about surveys. We care about these particular questions
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: asked in this particular survey, Thompson told the court on Thursday.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: Just because they're put in the form of a question
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: doesn't change the fact that they are affirmative representation of
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: a fact. That if the listener was not aware of
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: it now, they have been tainted by it. So the
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: defense would be cool if the prosecution did the same thing?
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: Start firing off phone calls, talking about the case? Or
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: would Ann Taylor be going absolutely batshit? we all know
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: she'd be going crazy. And considering how much of an
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: issue that they've been making out of the possibility of
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: a jury not being able to be impaneled due to bias,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: seems to me that this is kind of a calculated move.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: Let's fire off the survey, we'll get admonished, and then
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: later on down the road, when we're setting up the appeal,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: we'll say that we've been wronged. What, you don't think
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: they'd do that? You're not paying attention if that's what
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: you think. Because these defense attorneys, they're not just thinking
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: about what's right in front of them. They're looking at
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: the big picture and they know that their client's going
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: to end up appealing. So if they have some kind
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: of factual basis to appeal off of or something that
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: they feel is egregious, then that's just another bullet in
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: the chamber for them later on down the road. Because
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: let's be honest, do you really think that Ann Taylor,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: with all of her experience, with everything she knows about
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: the system, about capital punishment cases in Idaho, thinks that
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Brian Kohlberger is going to get off? I have a
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: very hard time believing that. And I think she is
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: more dealing in the world of realism where she knows
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: the evidence is strong and that an appeal is probably
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: going to be Kohlberger's only chance later on down the road.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: Thompson alleged that the defense had, whether willfully or inadvertently,
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: violated the court's standing gag order that prohibits the attorneys
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: in the case from public statements about it. Remember, they
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: wouldn't even talk about how much money had been spent.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Never mind the particulars of the case, the nuances. They
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: wouldn't even give you an answer when you're talking about
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: even the basic financials of what went on. But all
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: of a sudden, we can just start talking about the case,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: calling people up on the phone, cold calling them and.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: asking questions. So Ann Taylor and Brian Koberger, they can't
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: have it both ways. Either you want this gag order
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: and you're going to abide by it, or the gag
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: order should be removed and we should get on with
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: getting on. Judge John Judge of Idaho's 2nd Judicial District
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: in seemed to side with prosecutors on the issue, though
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: he did not issue a ruling on Thursday. On Thompson's
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: urging last month, he barred attorneys on both sides from
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: contacting possible jurors in a court order issued ahead of
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: Thursday's hearing, and that was all based on that phone survey,
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: and that's why this hearing was hastily put together the
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: way it was. Koberger, 29, is accused of killing four
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: U of I students in November of 2022. prosecutors plan
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: to seek the death penalty if a jury convicts him,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: though a trial date has yet to be set. And
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: the fact that there's no trial date has caused a
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: lot of pain and anger for a lot of the
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: victim's families. And I totally understand why that would be painful.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: But on the flip side of that, I understand that
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: there's a huge process that has to take place here.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: Even if I don't agree with it, I understand why
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: it's happening. The victims were seniors Kaylee Gonsalves and Madison Mogan,
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: both 21, and junior Zanna Kernodle and freshman Ethan Chapin,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: both 20. The three women rented the off-campus house in Moscow,
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: where they were stabbed to death while Chapin was staying
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: the night with Kernodle, his girlfriend. Koberger's defense, led by
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: public defender Ann Taylor, objected and argued that judges' decision
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: to stop their community survey work before a court hearing
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: violated Koberger's rights under the 14th Amendment Guaranteeing due process. Judge,
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: heated at points, rejected the allegation. Well, yeah, she's basically
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: saying that Judge Judge is guilty of stepping all over
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: Kohlberger's constitutional rights. And there's no judge in the land
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: that's going to be okay with somebody saying that. I
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: am being accused, directly accused, okay, by you in your
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: brief that I violated his due process rights. Judge fired
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: at Taylor. Now, that's not what the law says, and
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: that's not what the facts are. So this is the
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: judge firing off on Ann Taylor inside the courtroom. As
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: you can imagine, he's not very happy of being accused
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: of something that he says he's not doing. Taylor acquiesced
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: when challenged, but vented frustration over a legal process that
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: did not allow the defense to continue its work ahead
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: of a looming deadline. Later this month, the file briefs
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: justifying its position for a change of venue. And this
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: whole change of venue conversation is just old and tired
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: and stale.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: Enough already.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: The dude's going to be able to get a fair trial,
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: just like Chad Daybell is getting jurors empaneled as we speak.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Same can be said for Brian Koberger. They're going to
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: be able to find the jurors necessary to sit in
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: and judge this man for his alleged crimes. And it
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter if it's in Latah County or Timbuktu. The
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: result is going to be the same, in my opinion.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: She did not write or preview the survey. firm's questions beforehand,
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: she said, and sought to avoid scrapping the already completed
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: poll work, which was intended for comparison with responses in
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: at least two other counties before Judge halted it with
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: his order. Doing these surveys is not an anomaly, Taylor
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: told the court on Thursday. This is something that's done
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: in these high-profile cases. And just to be clear, the
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: prosecution has already stated it's not so much the survey,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: it's the questions that were being asked in the survey.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: So she's trying to make it about one thing, but
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: the prosecution's issue is something completely different. She accepted responsibility
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: for not ensuring that the survey firm had received a
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: copy of Judge's gag order in the case as it
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: prepared poll questions. She emailed the firm a copy of
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: the order, Taylor said, but didn't follow through to confirm
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: it had received it, which the company had not for
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: unknown reasons. Yeah, look, when there's a gag order, you're
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: just going to fire this off to a third party
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: and rely on them to do their job correctly? Now,
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: I'm sure that the firm is a great company, but
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to rely on them to do something
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: like this and then not check their work, especially with
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: this gag order and the fact that I might end
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: up getting in trouble by the state and the judge.
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: You better believe I'm double-checking your work. Trust but verify, right? Judge,
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: unsure of how to move forward... pushed a ruling out
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: until after another scheduled hearing on the issue on Wednesday.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: He said he planned to delay the deadline for filing
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: change of venue arguments by two weeks. The decision also
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: could delay a scheduled May 14th hearing for arguments on
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: whether to move Koberger's murder trial to another county in
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: the state. The defense had been working toward an April
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: 17th deadline to file their briefs with support for the request,
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: which was the basis of the phone surveys. The state's
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: response was to be due on May 1st. Also due
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: April 17th is Koberger's alibi if his attorneys plan to
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: argue such a defense. What could his alibi possibly be?
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: And if he had one, don't you think that we'd
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: all know about it by now? This seems to me
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: as just another delay tactic from the defense. Earlier this week,
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: the family of Kaylee Gonsalves took aim at the extended
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: timeline for Koberger to file an alibi. They again voiced
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: their frustration that Judge has yet set a trial date.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: And look, of all the criticism, I think this is valid.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: There's no doubt about it that Kohlberger should be turning
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: over that alibi already. What are you waiting for? Either
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: you have one or you don't. To me, it's simple.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: Where were you driving during these times on this day?
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: The family posted on their dedicated Facebook page. Not sure
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: why the judge keeps allowing more time for this either.
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: If we can't get past some of the simplest things,
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: how will we ever get to trial? And look, that
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: is a legitimate concern and a legitimate criticism. And especially
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: coming from the family of Kaylee or one of the victims.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: I think they should have as much room as they
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: need to grieve how they want and be as critical
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: of the process as they deem necessary. Remember, it's not
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: your loved one who's gone.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: It's theirs.
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: And they want justice. Unfortunately, that justice takes time. But
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: there's no doubt in my mind that little things like
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: this should be cleared up. And hopefully, very soon, we'll
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: see that. But either way, that's where things stand as
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: of now. As for me, that's going to do it
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: for this one. All of the information that goes with
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: this episode can be found in the description box.