Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Procrastination or Perfectionism? An Enneagram Two conversation with Andrea Fortenberry

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Procrastination or Perfectionism? An Enneagram Two conversation with Andrea Fortenberry · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I really have found just perfectionism really kind of fall off in a lot of ways.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like I instead of trying to be a crazy lady and keep my house clean all the time, like I just accept that we're gonna have some level of mess.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're not gonna be slobs, we're not gonna just have messes everywhere.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I've just learned to lower my standards to meet the reality of where we are.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, my name is Amy Wicks, and I help you navigate the overwhelm and frustration of motherhood through faith, Enneagram, and simple plans.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: As a faith-based Enneagram coach, I champion you to love your mothering style because you are the mom your kids need, even when you don't feel like it.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a mountain mama who somehow ended up on a cul-de-sac in the Midwest, overwhelmed and frustrated by motherhood.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: But the Lord didn't let me stay there.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: He helped me turn the challenges of motherhood into a wholehearted decision to get intentional with my faith, my self-awareness, and my family.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Each episode of this podcast provides perspective through story, wholehearted purpose, and simple plan so you can discover how to love your mothering style and be confident that you are the mom your kids need.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: Think of this podcast as your on-the-go mom pal and friend who can't help but talk about Jesus and the Enneagram.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: So get to that pile of laundry, or hit the treadmill, or load up the kids in the car for that grocery run.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: Get ready to be encouraged and empowered while you listen.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: This is the Simply Wholehearted Podcast.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: Hey friend, welcome back to the summer in the Enneagram.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: This month of June, we're making our way through Enneagram types one through four.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: But honestly, these are just amazing interviews with friends who happen to lead conveniently with those types, and who also love talking about Jesus as much as I do.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: The second guest of our Enneasummer is a friend you might have heard me mention before.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: If you are a part of the wholehearted community, you got the heads up and email when I was on Andrea's podcast, The Perfectionist Guide to Mothering.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: It was a super fun conversation, and I'll link to it in the show notes, of course.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: But we talked about how each Enneagram type might struggle with perfectionism, not just the Enneagram ones.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: Now, on this episode, Andrea Fortinberry is going to share a little bit about the struggles of being an Enneagram too.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: She's going to share about motherhood and an unexpected friendship birthed from a less than perfect moment.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: All of our conversation points to the gift of authenticity and the power of being at peace with reality that is yours.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: I could share more about Andrea, but I'm going to let her share as we jump right into the conversation.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: But if you are also interested in other specific episodes about the Enneagram too, be sure and check out episode 169, that is in my motherhood and Enneagram series, and episode 104, and that is back from 2019 and my summer in the Enneagram.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited for our conversation today.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: Now I've told my friends that I got to be on your podcast back in, it was the beginning of April, right?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: Or the end of March.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, or end of March.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: End of March.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I got to be on there and we talked about the perfectionist struggle for each Enneagram type.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: I had a ton of fun with that.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: Even did some social media stuff about it.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it was a good conversation.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: It was.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was so helpful for moms who listen to my show that maybe don't feel like, you know, I'm not, I don't really struggle with this a ton, but just helping them to identify that, oh yes, this is the unique way that I struggle based on my type with perfectionism.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we do all struggle with it in different ways.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: And we may not realize that, oh, that is that is perfectionism in me.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the Enneagram one gets a bad rap because they're oftentimes referred to as a perfectionist.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: But even my Enneagram one coaching clients have had a hard time identifying the perfectionism.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: And in fact, I've even seen a greater strat a struggle of perfectionism with sevens who go to a one in stress, which kind of an interesting thing.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say perfectionism, that's the low side for any of us, right?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's where we're not running as adopted and beloved and we're trying to do things on our own strength.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes perfectionism, like people have this perfect idea of what a perfectionist is.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's a very type A person that runs by lists, their house is immaculate, their clothes are starched and ironed.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: But for some people, that is the case.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: But for a lot of perfectionists, it also I think I heard John Acoff talk about that the person that you know who has the dirtiest car is probably a perfectionist because they want to take like two days to detail the car, like do it perfectly, and they just haven't found that time.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: They may not ever find that time.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: So they procrastinate in putting, you know, those pieces, taking those steps to clean the car.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that that is really true that sometimes procrastination is a big sign of a perfectionist because you're afraid you're not going to be able to do it perfectly.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: So you haven't even started yet.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_02: Oh man, that is a good one to remember.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think, like you said, it's the I mean, for me, if my house was orderly and you know, sparkling and clean, well, that means I'm healthy.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas, like you said, the the piles are more of an indication of I'm waiting to do it just right.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm I'm putting it off and delaying because I'm I need to overcome the perfectionists in the process.
• 6:03
  unknown: Right.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna be my Enneagram one mom who is very organized.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: I just need to do it my way.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: So yes, absolutely.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: So it's actually done.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I wanted to have you share a little bit of your Enneagram journey and your story with my friends.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: Let them know what type you lead as and kind of the awareness that it's brought to your life.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I remember it was probably four or five summers ago specifically, that several friends of mine had been talking about the Enneagram.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And do you know what your number is?
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I had no clue what the Enneagram was at all.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so a friend explained it to me, and then I listened to Allie Worthington's podcast, and she talks about the Enneagram a lot and asks her guests what number they are.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so I really started to think about it more and think about, well, what type am I?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I had seen an article somewhere with all of the types listed out, and I thought, okay, I'm most likely going to be a one or a three, is what I thought.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: So the three is the achiever and the one being the perfectionist.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then I took the test on the Enneagram Institute, and I was very surprised that my highest score was a two, which is the helper.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I was a little, you know, perplexed, confused, thinking, huh, like that's not what I would have picked myself as.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: But as I really explored more about each type, and then when I learned about wings, that was my big aha moment that okay, this makes total sense.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I am a two, but I wing in the direction of a one and three a lot.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: And in different aspects, I think I'm more of the one when I am in person my personal relationships with people.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: But in work, I think I wing toward the three more.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: But that was just really super helpful to me to understand that we do have characteristics of those types above and below us.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: And for each of us, it looks different, which makes the dynamic of how we lead, you know, where it's you you have a friend who leads us the same type as you, but it looks totally different on them than it does on you.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: I always say wings are more of a nurture thing than nature.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: So it also depends on your family of origin and their personality types and the environment.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: I yes, I think I haven't had her have my mom take the test yet, but I think she probably a two as well.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: So just thinking, yeah, like some of these things, like you said, is it nature?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: Is it nurture?
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a combination of of both, probably.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: So tell us a little bit because I think the twos always they're they're sometimes known as the darling of the Enneagram.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, a lot of women are going, Well, I'm a two because helper, helper just sounds a lot better than achiever and perfectionist, which is the numbers right beside it, right?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but for you, when you get frustrated and angry, tell us a little bit what that looks like now, now especially that you have language and awareness for it.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the well, one of the challenges of being a two is that you feel like you need to help everybody.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_01: You you do have a heart to help and be helpful.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so I can think of so many circumstances where I have a heart to help my friends or my family and do things, and and that's good and healthy.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: But where it becomes unhealthy is when we feel like we have to help everyone.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then we're not doing it out of a heart of joy or of wanting to serve one another in love.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: We're doing it out of a place of obligation.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so we can then do it with bitterness.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I can think of, you know, maybe it's like serving your family dinner and you're just exhausted and you feel like nobody appreciates you.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you kind of like slam the plates down in like a passive, aggressive, like that, those are types of things that that can happen.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: And then also I have felt as a two that sometimes when people don't reciprocate me in my, you know, I've offered to help them in these ways, or I try to be a good friend to them in these specific ways.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: But if they don't reciprocate that to me, then I can start to go down this spiral sometimes of like, well, they must not care about me, or they don't love me, or what about me?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: What about my needs?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so it really can just quickly switch from this place of serving and helping others with joy to being resentful when we don't feel people reciprocating that help to us.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: Oh man, that is real.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: And it requires boundaries, which is very challenging for two.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: So because you now have language and understanding, what kind of boundaries have you implemented so you don't get to that point as often?
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: I know it's gonna take longer to not get to that point, or you know, maybe on the other side.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: But what do you do for now to help us women who struggle with boundaries a little bit?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the first thing was reading the book Boundaries.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: That has been very helpful to understanding that boundaries are not necessarily burdens, that they are they can actually bring such blessing to our lives because we have more order and we've put these boundaries and parameters in place to protect us, protect ourselves, our hearts, and our time.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: And in that book, they give the example of a woman who has absolutely no boundaries and what her day looks like.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: And she's so cringy.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's horrible to read that part.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: It is, and as too, is like I definitely can see myself in that woman a little bit, and you know, like every request that everybody makes of her, she says yes to, all the while she is suffering, and she is even enabling other people by taking on the things that they should take care of themselves.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I've learned that boundaries aren't bad.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: I've also learned that not every opportunity to help is mine to take.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that has taken, yeah, just some processing and realization of I'm called to certain things, but I'm not called to everything.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: So for helpers, we because we want to help and have heart to help and we generally are reliable, everyone will ask you for help.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and it's hard to say no.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it could be your kids' school that they want you to volunteer, it's church, it's the soccer team.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Will you be the coach?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so many different asks for help that we get.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you really have to ask yourself, uh, do I feel called to help?
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Is this something I'm passionate about?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: Is that is this somewhere where I can add value?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then I have to ask myself, what will this do to my family?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: And what will this do to my well-being and my sanity?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if any of those things that I'm being asked to do, if they don't fit in those questions well, then I've learned it's okay to say no, and that someone else will step up.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: And if we as the helpers take every opportunity to help, then we are really preventing someone else from that opportunity to help or their turn.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: I firmly believe, like with being a class mom or a coach or those types of things for our kids, like we can do it sometimes, but we don't have to do it all the time.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: So let's let someone else take a turn because we've taken our turn already.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: Girl, uh, we can just like hang up now, call it good, send it out.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: I know someone's gonna be ministered to more than one person hearing this.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: This was really good.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, really good content there on boundaries and a good reminder for all of us just to evaluate how we're saying yes and making sure that we're doing it in a way that's life-giving for our souls in the end.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: So, man, that's awesome.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I I would love to hear too.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I know my friends would, uh I mentioned that I had been on your podcast and we actually met because of a podcast mastermind, which um is this fun little group.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: How many of us are there?
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: Five, six, five of us.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it was kind of one of those things I even shared the other day about like I thought, well, this is cool, but I didn't, I had no idea how much I would value it and value the women in it.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I've just I love getting to know you all and just we all have podcasts on different things, and it's fun to swap ideas and encouragement.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: But for you, what why did you start your podcast?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: What was the maybe even the brokenhearted moment that led to a decision to speak on the message of perfectionism and motherhood?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's a big topic to tackle.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: It is, and it's come, yes, from my own struggles of dealing with perfectionism and motherhood.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think so often that God grows us and brings us through things so that we can help other people.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, I never want to waste those lessons that God has given me.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I that's really what inspired me.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: But where I found myself, I think it was about six or seven years ago.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: So my kids then would have been like five and three, somewhere in that range.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just very frustrated with feeling frustrated all the time.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: I uh you know, the messes that the kids would make or them not obeying, and my daughter, she is so precious.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: She, when she was little, was very strong-willed, and that completely surprised me.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: It completely just flipped my expectations of what mothering a daughter would look like.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I put my expectations on her based on how I was as a child.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: I was a very calm, compliant little girl.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: You were it too.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: And she was more like if you've seen the movie, the Disney movie Brave with Merida, like that she's a challenger.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: When that movie came out, I'm like, this is my life.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is exactly where I find myself.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and I love it because I see things in her that I wish I had sometimes.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but it was really challenging because I just thought, what am I doing wrong?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: Why is this, why is my expectation different than my reality?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: And when that happens, we we feel frustrated, we feel disappointed.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I just didn't like that I was feeling that way.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I I would react in anger to the kids.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I just thought, I don't want them to have these memories of me where I'm slamming the food on the table or where I'm yelling at them because they made a mess.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized like they're acting like children.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm surprised, right?
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm expecting them to act like adults.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I think this is something with me that I need to deal with, not necessarily something that's going on with them because they were being typical children.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just Googled some Christian counselors in my area and I made an appointment.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's funny because I had these expectations of even what counseling would be like, that I would go in and just tell her, hey, I'm feeling angry.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: And she would, you know, we'd have a couple sessions and she'd give me like 10 easy things to do to stop feeling angry.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: But we really we I still meet with her monthly.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's so helpful.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: So really what she helped me to do was to unpack my own childhood, my own past, and to make really important connections of things that I had gone through that I had never processed before, painful things.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: I had a I had a good childhood, but there were painful things that happened that I had never really talked about before.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so her asking me questions about those things and allowing me to talk about those things really gave me that aha moment of the fact that perfectionism was a coping mechanism that I adopted subconsciously without being aware of it.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: But I tried to be perfect and tried to achieve and excel because it's really a um just a cycle that can happen where you are trying to perfect and please and perform, and then you get approval and that feels good and feel safe and secure from that.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so then you keep doing it because you want that cycle to continue, but it really is a negative cycle because it's where does it stop?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you have where you know can you be how can it be satisfied ever?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it always will have an appetite and you won't find satisfaction in that.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so I realized through going through my counseling that yeah, perfectionism is not a healthy thing.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's great for us to want to do a good job and to excel, but I I just took it to an extreme level.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: And when perfectionism wasn't working for me anymore with mothering my kids, I I knew I had to do something about it.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so she really has helped me to learn that it's okay for things to not be perfect, it's okay for us to do a good enough job and to find satisfaction and peace in that instead of striving and feeling stressed and angry and anxious all the time.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that is really good.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting how, and this is a methodology that I use with my coaching, and I know it works because plenty of counselors that I've seen and talked with, it's the go back going back to the family of origin, right?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: That uncovers a ton of mysteries.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I use that in my coaching of understanding what I call your childhood experience and the lens that you looked through.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because when you can suddenly have language for why you had a specific, I don't know, like, well, experience, but also your viewpoint.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: You have ever siblings, but you all come away from the situation differently.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's personality.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: But when you suddenly can have someone validate this is why you thought the way you did, or this is why you're motivated to engage with your family of origin in a certain way, you can you can get begin to like going, oh, wow, you know, and be able to name the stress that it was or the trauma that it was.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not a trauma counselor, but sometimes even just being able to name it what it is gets people on to the next step of healing.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes that's working with a therapist or at least being able to read and write the story that they live so far.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: So that way they don't do what you were realizing, which is repeat history and take that and put that on your children or engage in behaviors that were going to create your own children's trauma, right?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's the thing of it.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: If we're continuing to live on this pressure of perfectionism, we're just uh projecting, you know, things on our kids that they can't possibly liberate to exactly.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I and that really was that one of those aha moments of I don't want my kids to suffer based on whatever is going on with me that I need to get control of.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm just so thankful for my counselor and for the years of work that she has helped me to go through.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's not been easy.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's not Fun to go back to some of those things.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why people avoid it and try to just cope as best they can in the here and now.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: But really, I found that when we go back and do that hard work, then we can move forward in a healthy way.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so I really have found just perfections really kind of fall off in a lot of ways.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like I instead of trying to be a crazy lady and keep my house clean all the time, like I just accept that we're gonna have some level of mess.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're not gonna be slobs, we're not gonna just have messes everywhere.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: But I've just learned to lower my standards to meet the reality of where we are.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I understand that this is just the season that we're in where there's volleyball equipment and football cleats and things like that everywhere.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: But I've also tried to see some of the messes and some of these things that irritate me sometimes to see them more as just beautiful evidence of living a life as a mom of now a 12-year-old and a nine-year-old, and just seeing them throughout my house because I know that one day they're gonna go off to college or move away.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: And those things won't be here then.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: They won't always be here.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: So just trying to flip and have an attitude of gratitude versus being frustrated by some of the challenges of motherhood.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I I love how you are taking what you have learned and what you lived and you are uh really sharing that knowledge then on a podcast.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like maybe, maybe some of our friends are a little nervous about going to counselor.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: I get it, um, but I know that we both can testify it's so worth it.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I know, I know of people, man, they would really if they could just be willing to sit with one, it would change their life.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: They would get unstuck, you know, in just like a few sessions.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is just so worth it.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's so helpful.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I uh whenever I speak to mom's groups or mom's groups, I always tell my story and just recommend it.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I've had a couple of people respond to me later and say, thank you so much for mentioning that.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like I made an appointment and that just brings me such joy because I know how it can bring us healing and freedom when we're willing to do the work and willing to let God into those places and to just make those connections for us.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: It might be different for all of us, though the things that we've walked through, but we've all been through pain and we've all had wounds because we're living in this fallen world.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: So none of us are immune from that.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really helpful and healthy for us to seek counseling.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think some in our culture, I think it's shifting, but I think there has been a little bit of like shame or stigma attached to counseling in the past that, like, oh, you're, you know, you must have really big issues because you're going to counseling.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not the case at all.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: Again, we all have issues because we all live in a fallen world with broken people, and we're broken ourselves.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really, I think, an act of courage and strength to go see a counselor and not weakness at all.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a good one.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: An act of courage and strength.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, as you mentioned, you do speak to mom's groups.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that last year and this year it's looked a little different.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lot more Zoom, and you have continued on with your podcasts, which you're sharing stories that are, you know, messages that speak to this.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: You're sharing your own heart, your own messages along the way.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I know that you have five things that you just speak to moms about that you call embracing perfection.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd love for you if you could um just as we really kind of finish out our conversation, if you could share those five things.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: So moms could take it along with them today, and it'll be almost as good as getting to sit with a bunch of other moms in a mom's group and have some action steps to take with them.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: So my talk that I give is embracing imperfection.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so the five steps are number one, accept your weaknesses and your limits.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: Dang it.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: So you, which is it doesn't sound fun, right?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because our culture reminds us to shy away from weakness, but we are human beings with limited capacity.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: We are not robots, we are not the energizer bunny.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like we need sleep, we need rest, we need time with the Lord, and we were made with limits.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_01: We were also made with things that we don't do well.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: God has given us other areas that we're strong in.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's good and healthy when we can just accept the weaknesses.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe you're not a crafty mom or you're not organized, or you're not a great cook, or whatever those things are that we just maybe we can do, but we're not great at, we can just accept that that's not how God made us, and and that's okay.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think too, just those areas where we uh struggle, where we fall short, just remembering that God tells us that when we are weak, that then he is strong.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's 2 Corinthians 12, 8 through 10, where Paul is talking and saying, like that he's been pleading with the Lord to take away this thing that he's struggling with.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: But God says to him, My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: And just realizing that helps us, I think, so much in our daily lives.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Just knowing that we don't have to be perfect.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: God is not asking us to do that, he's asking us to rely on his grace and his strength when we're in our weaknesses.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: And Paul then tells us that when we are weak, then we are strong.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that is a great encouragement for us to just accept and for us to embrace our weaknesses and our limits.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good one.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then the second thing that we can do is to honor our strengths.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, God gave each of us strengths and gifts and talents that are wonderful.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: And he gave us these things so that we would go out and bless the world with them.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we need to honor them.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: We it the culture that we live in is so interesting because sometimes we hear these messages of you know, like self-empowerment, like you're great, hustle, like do all of these things.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: But then I think sometimes we also hear messages and feel that we need to be small and that we don't want to outshine anybody else, that we should, you know, not try to compete with others.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think some of these things conflict and confuse us and as believers.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: But truly, again, God created us with gifts and talents that he wants us to shine in the world.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: He tells us that we don't take a lamp and cover it up so that no one can see the light.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: We want to shine our light.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: And he also tells us that we are his masterpieces, that he has created us to do good works that he has planned long ago.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: So let's we don't want to be prideful about the things that we do well or the areas of giftedness God has given us, but we want to have an attitude of really holy humility of these gifts that God has given us.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: So let's honor them, let's let our light shine in those areas that we excel in and do it all for the glory of God.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's one of the reasons I love using the Enneagram because it doesn't just show our weaknesses.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's important to know, but it also celebrates the strengths, our God-given strengths.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I do believe He created us to with the desire that we would use them and run in our lane for his glory.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: So amen.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Then the third thing is for us to be kind to ourselves and to others and to realize that again, the world already makes us feel guilty and insecurity, and that we're judged by other people.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think what we often do when we mess up is that we shame ourselves and we pour on those messages of more guilt and insecurity and judgment on ourselves.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think as women, we say things to ourselves that we would never ever say to our best friend or our sister who is struggling with something or who made a mistake.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we would ever say some of those things to anybody else.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: So why do we say them to ourselves?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: So just really learning to take on a posture of kindness to yourself and to realize that our mistakes don't have to define us, but they can really help to refine us.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: They can help us to do better next time, to just have an attitude of I'm growing, I'm in progress, and that's good and that's okay.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we need to yeah, just remember that and then also to remember that for others.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: So for our kids, when they mess up, how do we want them to treat themselves when they mess up?
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, we're called to discipline and to correct, but can we do that in a way that is still loving and kind so that they know that we love them no matter what?
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: We want them to walk away with that message after we've disciplined or corrected.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a good one.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: We got to example it.
• 31:59
  unknown: Yeah.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next step, number four, is to be vulnerable about our imperfections.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a hard one again, because the world tells us, you know, put on the mask, be perfect, let create the image that you want everyone else to think of you.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it can be really hard to be vulnerable about our imperfections.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll share a story that really God gave me the opportunity to really consider like, am I going to live this out?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: And a really great thing happened.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it was about five years ago that my parents unexpectedly had separated.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: And it was really difficult for me.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it was something I didn't see coming.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: It was very painful.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like two, two months or so, I think, into this.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I I some days I would just cry all day.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: Some days I just felt this fog over me.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: And one particular day I remember like I didn't really want to get up or get out of bed, but I had to take my daughter to school.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I we got in the car, I'm driving her to our school, it's in our neighborhood, like a little over a mile away.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I stopped at a stop sign and I looked to the left.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: I was turning right.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: I looked to the left, I saw one vehicle coming.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: So right after it passed, I started turning, but it was like a large SUV.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't see that there was another vehicle right behind it.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I almost T-boned this van.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized, you know, thankfully it didn't happen.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_01: She's honking, like throwing her arms up in the air.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt so bad because I realized it was a neighbor that I had that I didn't know her personally, but I knew I knew she was my neighbor.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: She lived like toward the end of the street.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I just thought, oh my goodness, like this is awful.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: What does she think of me?
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I had to drive behind her the whole way through the neighborhood, through the car, drop off.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I just was so ashamed that I had, you know, almost hit her.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, okay, as I'm driving home, what am I gonna do?
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_01: Am I gonna just I really wanted to just pull into my driveway and shut the hit the button and crawl?
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: Forget it, right?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I thought, no, no, I have to make this right and at least go over and apologize.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: So after we dropped the kids, I followed her to her house and she got out of her car and she was upset, which understandably so.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I just said I I told her something along the lines of, you know, I know you're my neighbor, and I I just wanted to come over and apologize because you know it wasn't, it was an accident, but I I'm going through a really hard time right now and I'm just not on top of my game.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not feeling myself, and I just wasn't paying attention and I didn't see you, and I wanted to apologize.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it really kind of changed her demeanor a little bit.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: She said, Okay, you know, thanks.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: And and then she made a comment.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: I remember she said, Well, I like your car, you know, something like that, trying to make it lighthearted.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: And and then he, it got really, I think that was like April or May, and it got really hot here in Arizona, and people are on vacation.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't see her again until school started the next school year.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I walked into curriculum night and we had switched schools for my daughter, and lo and behold, she switched schools for her son, and he was sitting in my daughter's classroom for curriculum night.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I got a little, I got a little butterfly in my stomach, but I went and sat next to her and just started to make small talk.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, how are you doing?
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then she said something that was just so encouraging to me about us taking this brave step to be vulnerable.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, I want you to know how much I've thought about what you said to me that day about how you shared that you were going through something hard.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, it just reminded me that you never know what someone is going through and how quick we are to judge people sometimes.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, I thought about all of the times where I've made a similar mistake when I'm diving, and about how I didn't get the opportunity to go apologize to that person or explain what happened.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so she just said, I'm just so grateful that you shared that with me.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: And she had tears in her eyes, and so it was really just such a great woman.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I was just so thankful to the Lord that he gave me the courage to go to go talk to her because I was so wanting to just pull into mind to we started like helping out with drop-off and pickup when one of us wasn't available for each other.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so it really started a relationship because I almost ran into her and then I got the opportunity to share with her just kind of what was going on.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it we just never know what can happen when we're vulnerable with each other.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: And then I think when we are, it really just gives other people around us the reminder that they don't have to be perfect, the reminder that we have greater connection with one another when we share about some of those imperfections or hard things that we have in our lives.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: Oh man, that's so good.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: What a great story! What a what a fun friendship story.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: You just never know, right?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then lastly, step number five is to trust that God does beautiful things with imperfection.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: He can we we read all throughout scripture that God takes imperfect people and he can do beautiful things through them and through their stories.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I just love in Isaiah 61, where he talks about all of the things, the hard things that exist in life and how he's gonna turn it around.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: So he says that the Lord has sent him to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then he talks about comforting all who mourn, providing for those who grieve, to bestow on them a crown of beauty instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then that next verse in Isaiah 61 says that they will be called oaks of righteousness, a planting of the Lord for the display of his splendor.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: And when you think about an oak tree, an oak tree is a huge tree that has such huge branches and provides such beautiful shade.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so thinking about how the Lord is going to take these hard things that we go through to take our imperfections, our mistakes, and he's going to put them, he's going to change them around and put them on display for others to see him shining through.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just a beautiful picture, a visual that we can take with us to know that God is taking these things in us and can turn them around so that others can see him in it.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: Man, this is so good.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: Andrea, thank you for sharing your heart and pouring out.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: I know that all my friends listening, they they got more than just a fun conversation.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: They got the word of the Lord, they got some encouragement, they got some practical steps to implement in their life and to carry with them.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: You're welcome.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's been my pleasure.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: Friend, if you felt stuck in a cycle of perfectionism, I pray that this conversation has sparked a desire to get free from the lie that is holding you back.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_02: You aren't the only one, which is why I've created my coaching programs to help you get free from the emotional struggles such as control, anxiety, and shame.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: The root of perfectionism often goes back to one of these three things.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: But freedom is possible.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: If you'd like to chat about how I can help you, I'd love to have you get my calendar for your free 15-minute Zoom call with me.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: Now be sure you're following this podcast on this app so you don't miss next week's conversation with Laura Hernandez.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_02: She's a rock star with systems and has actionable advice that you can implement as you listen to our conversation.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know these summer months can be daunting with kids, but I think you'll feel empowered after hearing some of Laura's mom's system wisdom.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_02: Remember, you are the mom your kids need.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: Continue to pursue perspective, purpose, and plans for the whole heart of life you desire.