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Bestselling Author Janet McHenry on Studying the Form for Your Writing · The Daily Writer

0:06
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Daily Rider Podcast, where we bring you tips and inspiration each day to help you build habits for riding success.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: For more resources, including your free Daily Rider Starter Kit, visit DailyRiderLife.com.
0:22
SPEAKER_00: If you like to spend time in the kitchen, you know that it's important to understand what you're making before you gather your ingredients and start cooking.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: The recipe for making buffalo wings, for example, is quite different than the recipe for chocolate cake.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: In other words, you have to understand the form of what you're making in order to create it simply and successfully.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: My guest today is Janet McHenry, and she is here to help us learn how to use this simple principle of studying the form for your writing in order for you to have greater enjoyment and success in your work as an author.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: Janet is a national speaker and the author of 25 books, with six of those books on prayer, including the best-selling book, Prayer Walk, and her newest book, The Complete Guide to the Prayers of Jesus.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: Janet has written in a variety of genres Christian living, gift books, Bible studies, devotionals, as well as children's board books, first chapter books, girls' mysteries, and a cozy mystery for adults.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: So today we have a bona fide expert on studying the form, and she can easily shift from one kind of writing to another, which is a skill that is extremely valuable.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: So in today's conversation, we dive into this concept and we talk about why it's so important for writers and how you can start applying it to your writing today.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: You can check out Janet's website at JanetMcHenry.com, where you can also grab her free ebook called Prayer Helps Scripture-Based Prayers When You Don't Know How to Pray.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: Here's my conversation with the amazing Janet McHenry.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: Janet, I'm excited to have you on the show today because we're talking about a topic that I have never done an interview on.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: And that is this phrase actually came from you, which is study the form.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: And I found that so intriguing and so compelling.
2:08
SPEAKER_00: So I'd love to dive into this topic today.
2:11
SPEAKER_00: So uh, but before we do that, I just want to say, welcome to the show.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: It's really great to connect with you.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: And I have to thank our mutual friend, Kelly Brinkman, for the intro.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: So so glad to have you on the Daily Writer Podcast.
2:22
SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much, Kent.
2:23
SPEAKER_01: It's a pleasure to be here.
2:25
SPEAKER_00: Well, let's dive into this concept of studying the form.
2:28
SPEAKER_00: I guess the first place that we would start off with this is what does that mean exactly to study the form?
2:36
SPEAKER_01: And that's exactly that's why, exactly why I teach you.
2:40
SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, if you've gone to writers' conferences, you know that there are sort of writer expressions like um, you know, write what you know and so forth, all those kinds of things, show, don't tell, and all that.
2:53
SPEAKER_01: So another one I kept hearing as I started going to writers' conferences more than 30 years ago was study the form, study the form.
3:01
SPEAKER_01: So I'd look down the workshop list, you know, to find out, okay, so I want to learn what what does that mean?
3:07
SPEAKER_01: And no one was teaching it.
3:09
SPEAKER_01: So uh some years ago, I began kind of uh figuring out a process to actually do that.
3:18
SPEAKER_01: Um my experience as a writer is that uh I I kind of approach it journalistically.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: Um I have a journalism degree, I worked as a newspaper reporter.
3:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm not one of more of those kind of uh compulsive writers who felt like she needed to write every day.
3:36
SPEAKER_01: I'm more of a person who just says, uh, give me an assignment and I can do it.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
3:42
SPEAKER_01: So what I began doing is, you know, examining uh, for example, just uh article styles.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: And years ago, I actually started writing writing articles.
3:53
SPEAKER_01: And I learned that, oh, you have to actually figure out what that particular magazine, how they want to approach a how-to piece, for example.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: And so I I learned uh a process and uh teach a process where I break down uh writing form and just examine it.
4:12
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's uh it's pretty simple, really.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: But so can you can you go into some of that process about how you would how you would actually break down a piece?
4:24
SPEAKER_00: And I assume really you're talking about reverse engineering.
4:27
SPEAKER_00: Uh would that be a fair a fair term to put on that?
4:30
SPEAKER_00: You haven't used that term, but is that kind of a fair way of thinking about it as you have the thing that you want to create and then you figure out you figure out how it's put together, then you can build it more easily knowing how it was put together.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: Right.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: Um I I'm not a math or science person so much, but I think I think what you mean is that you really examine it closely.
4:52
SPEAKER_01: Like my my brother, yeah, when he would when my mom was uh you know raising my brother, she would give him an old toaster that doesn't work.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: And so he'd take it apart.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: That's kind of what we're doing with studying the form.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: You first um you kind of get first a mentor book or a mentor article, for example.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: Love that, and a really good one that you admire and you think is put together structurally well, and then you just begin to notice the components of that.
5:20
SPEAKER_01: And I would just open up the book, for example, first and look at the table of contents and break down um exactly, okay, so is this writer using particular sections?
5:30
SPEAKER_01: Are there section headings?
5:31
SPEAKER_01: And how are the titles put together?
5:34
SPEAKER_01: Are they all starting with ing verbs, for example?
5:38
SPEAKER_01: Or are they, you know, using sort of headline approaches?
5:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then um are how are the uh how are the ideas going to progress through just even as you're studying the table of contents?
5:52
SPEAKER_01: How and if we think of nonfiction books as as an art as an argument, yes, an argument has to progress.
6:01
SPEAKER_01: So you have a problem at the beginning, and you're taking the the reader through a process to some sort of promise at the end.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: That's good so that um we be you can begin to notice how that's structurally put together by examining tables of contents in that way.
6:19
SPEAKER_01: And then I would go, uh I even would even begin sort of counting.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: And this I just told you I'm not a math or science person, but um I do count.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: So, for example, the first time I wrote a devotion and I was writing it for a project, and I've written them for many different projects for um like NIV women's study bibles and guideposts and so forth.
6:44
SPEAKER_01: So you begin to look at the structure of it.
6:46
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it starts with a verse, and then there's an anecdote, you know, and then it shifts to there's a transition point where it shifts to a point of teaching, you know, that kind of thing.
6:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, so you begin to kind of look at chapters or articles in that kind of way analytically.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: And uh when I was teaching high school English, I would tell my students, okay, what we're gonna do is not um think about what the writer is saying, but we're looking at what the writer is doing strategically as a writer to create that argument.
7:23
SPEAKER_01: Um and so then you're gonna look at a chapter, you're gonna probably notice that, for example, in a Christian living book that it starts out anecdotally, you know, there's some sort of a story, it's a personal story from that writer, or it could be about a biblical character, but it's often um background and it's story.
7:43
SPEAKER_01: It's something that's going to help the reader identify with you as the writer.
7:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's important for that reader to be able to trust the author because you're not going to get anywhere if um you know you come across arrogantly and that kind of thing.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: So you want to start anecdotally, and then usually in a chapter, you'll notice that there'll be two, three, or four headings that divide up the rest of the chapter.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: Think about your pastor's sermon on a Sunday, right?
8:20
SPEAKER_02: Same thing.
8:20
SPEAKER_01: How does he start?
8:22
SPEAKER_01: He starts out anecdotally, he might have a joke or a personal story of some kind that's leading into the issue that he wants to dig into during that sermon.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: And then there are three points, right?
8:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, so we do the same thing in a nonfiction Christian living book, for example.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so we're gonna in those sections, you'll also notice that there are they're gonna be there will be biblical principle.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: Um, people often ask me, Janet, you know, where do you get your ideas for books?
8:55
SPEAKER_01: You know, what do you read?
8:56
SPEAKER_01: You know, what do you experience?
8:57
SPEAKER_01: What do you do?
8:58
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I read the Bible.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: What a novel concept.
9:05
SPEAKER_01: I read the Bible, you know.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, for about the last 20 years, I've read it for cover from cover to cover.
9:11
SPEAKER_01: And um, and so every every day God shows me something new.
9:17
SPEAKER_01: And so those something new, something new that we're we're reading can become then biblical principles that can guide our life.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: So we use biblical principles in those chapters.
9:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, we can also bring in other forms of teaching and that can come out of our personal experience or others' personal experience, historical examples.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that's kind of the kind of the thrust of the teaching behind that, sort of the basic nuts and bolts of what you do.
9:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I mentioned the idea of counting earlier.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, I will, if I'm studying a new form, I actually will count the words.
9:58
SPEAKER_01: Okay, if it's a devotion and I am writing for a particular publication, I want to be right on target with that if they haven't given me a guideline.
10:06
SPEAKER_01: Or if I'm proposing a new book, um, I want to make sure that the devotions, whether it's going to be a 90-day devotion or a 365-day devotional book, that that I'm I'm gonna be right on target in terms of the correct number of words.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: So um structurally, I look for that.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: I look um in chapters.
10:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I'll look, okay, how long is this anecdote of this book, this mentor book that I really admire?
10:35
SPEAKER_01: How much time did that writer spend doing that introductory part of the of the book?
10:40
SPEAKER_01: And then I'll look at those sections there.
10:43
SPEAKER_01: So, say, for example, um a Christian living nonfiction book is going to be about 48,000 words, maybe a little more.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: You're gonna have 12 chapters.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: That means you're gonna have about 4,000 words in a chapter, right?
10:59
SPEAKER_01: So you can spend about a thousand words on an introductory anecdote and a thousand words on each of those next three sections in your chapter.
11:08
SPEAKER_01: That helps me personally.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: Um, I know that you uh you talk about uh creativity on the Daily Writer a lot and that um and strategies for writers to help them tap into their creativity.
11:21
SPEAKER_01: For me, I'm I'm more left-brain minded.
11:24
SPEAKER_01: So approaching something like that systematically, mathematically, I like to say, really helps me understand what I'm supposed to do as opposed to just sort of sitting down and pantsing the whole thing, which sends me sends me into a panic.
11:41
SPEAKER_00: And it's important to remember too that creativity takes place within within limits or with the confines of whatever form that you're creating.
11:50
SPEAKER_00: I mean, Michelangelo, you know, I guess to use another form of of art and creativity, Michelangelo didn't go into the Sistine Chapel and just say, Oh, I can paint whatever I want.
11:58
SPEAKER_00: He was limited by the confines of how the arches were designed and how much space he had with with the within each of those things.
12:04
SPEAKER_00: But because he had limitations, that allowed his creativity to thrive.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: You can't just go onto the blank canvas and go, Well, I can do whatever I want and I have as much space and time as I want.
12:15
SPEAKER_00: He had limits.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: So if I hear you correctly, what you're saying is those limits and understanding what the form is of what we're creating actually gives our creativity a place to thrive because we don't have to go out and create 15 different kinds of things.
12:30
SPEAKER_00: We're working on this one form of a book, and knowing what the form is really releases that creativity because now we can direct our energy in a certain way with certain word counts with a certain style or format.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: Would that would all that be a fair way to say all that?
12:47
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
12:48
SPEAKER_01: And if people uh a lot of people say, well, that just like puts me in a box, Janet.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: I can't, I can't handle that.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: I don't work that way.
12:56
SPEAKER_01: Um I I feel my response would be, well, I think God has provided structure, um, he's provided limitations for us, right?
13:07
SPEAKER_01: He's I think he's organized, I think he's clear, but he's also creative.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: You know, that creativity, we we just I can look out the windows right now and I and I can just be astonished by it every single day.
13:20
SPEAKER_01: But I think put um doing some planning won't necessarily uh keep you confined in a box, but you can pour your energies into that box, you know, and let it burst out a little bit if it needs to, but it will help you get to the end of your book project without feeling like you have a mess you have to fix.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: And that happens a lot, doesn't it?
13:44
SPEAKER_00: Particularly with people who are new to this whole writing thing, is some, and I'm sure you talk to people like this too.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I'll talk to people who have kind of created this whole messy draft that really hasn't it doesn't have a lot of structure to it or any sort of a a direction.
14:01
SPEAKER_00: And and then you have to go back and and really redo a lot of it because there wasn't some kind of structure or a plan to begin with.
14:09
SPEAKER_00: So now you you've got to invest all this extra energy into it because there wasn't really a plan, which can be a very frustrating place to be.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: And I've done that before myself, so I can relate to that.
14:20
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
14:21
SPEAKER_01: I know uh even you know, we're recording this in in November, and uh lots of people, thousands of people in the United States are doing nano rhymo right now.
14:31
SPEAKER_01: You know, they're gonna pour out 50,000 words in a month.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: I say, God bless you.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: Good luck.
14:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, I would have to have a real um strict framework for that.
14:42
SPEAKER_01: And um, I myself just finished a book with over 53,000 words, but I started it, I already had one chapter done, um, and I'm you know, writing it under contract.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: I started at the beginning of June and I just finished it.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: Um so I but the thing is I only had to spend two days editing that book um because it was already, you know, in a form that I, you know, that I felt really strongly about.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: So and I think it's interesting you mentioned this book is under contract with the publisher.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: Um one and I think one thing to keep in mind with all this that's really important is that if you work with the publisher, they expect a certain form or a certain format.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: Depending on what genre you're writing in or or the specifics of the publisher, of course, they're gonna expect a certain kind of thing.
15:38
SPEAKER_00: And if you want to be perceived as a professional and work with publishers, then you got to kind of learn what the form is and what they require and be be willing to conform to what they expect, which can be difficult if you've never done that before.
15:53
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: And that's why um I will also teach writers um to not necessarily just sit down and write, um, to create a proposal first.
16:05
SPEAKER_01: Even if you're if you know you're gonna self-publish, even if you know you're gonna hybrid publish, to do a proposal first.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: That will put you in a place where you understand your audience better.
16:17
SPEAKER_01: You'll understand whether there's a market for your book, and then you will have created a structure, whether it's, you know, if it's non-fiction, you're you're you've done an annotated table of contents.
16:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and if you're writing fiction, you will have done uh, you know, a pretty, pretty good summary that shows some transition from one section to another of a book.
16:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think that's kind of healthy unless you really enjoy that process of you know putting all the pieces here, there, and everywhere.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know.
16:54
SPEAKER_01: Uh, years ago I wrote uh fiction.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: I I've written quite a bit of fiction actually for um young people.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: I did girls' mysteries, I did first chapter books, and I've done a cozy mystery for adults.
17:06
SPEAKER_01: And um one of those mysteries, though, I thought, oh, I'm gonna be like those people who, you know, pants their way through a book.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: I I just want to see, it'll be fun.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: So I got halfway into this mystery, and I had to tell myself, Janet, you don't even know who the villain is yet.
17:26
SPEAKER_01: You have to you have to figure that out.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: So I I went back to structure.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: Um, and mystery is a very has a very particular form that that was a dangerous, dangerous approach for that.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: And I would think mystery would especially be a challenge because you have to lay those clues out for who the villain is or what the the ultimate solution is or whatever.
17:51
SPEAKER_00: But I know that has to be done in a very kind of structured way in a specific way where you're kind of giving away things, but you're not giving away things too heavily, so it's not too obvious.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I see I see mystery books and mystery movies, and I think those seem to me to be really complicated animals.
18:08
SPEAKER_00: I don't think I could ever do that.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: So I have a lot of respect that you that you try to do that.
18:13
SPEAKER_00: Well, maybe I'll give it a shot.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
18:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you just you lay out lots of different possibilities for who the villa can be and whatever the situation is, and then you eliminate them one by one.
18:25
SPEAKER_01: So the reader is going like, oh, I don't know who it is.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: And then, but you've given them some fair advantage by planting those clues along the way.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: You have to play fair with the reader.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, but then it's always fun to surprise them.
18:38
SPEAKER_01: And uh one of my mysteries, I had two villains, and then one of my mysteries I had three.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: So um, so I wanted always some sort of a big surprise.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
18:52
SPEAKER_00: So, one of the things that that I wanted to throw out there is what you're talking about really sounds similar to what Stephen Covey talked about way back in the 80s with his book, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.
19:04
SPEAKER_00: A lot of people have read that book and been impacted by it.
19:07
SPEAKER_00: And I know the very first habit is begin with the end in mind.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: And I've always thought about that and how much that applies to different things in life.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: So, what you're saying is there's a real value when you sit down to do a book of thinking about what you're trying to create, what the structure is going to be, what the form is going to be, because that's gonna save you a lot of time and heartache and energy as you go through the process.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: You're thinking about the promises that you have for your reader, and you know, and that um, so the current book project that I'm just finished, I want to help someone have um a praying lifestyle.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: So um, I'm not gonna review the title yet.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: We're not we're hanging on to that because it the book is unique.
19:53
SPEAKER_01: So um then I'm always thinking that.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: And um, even if you're writing memoir or you're writing prescription memoir or you're writing Christian Living book and you want to help someone, I think we often tend to think, oh, my experience was the perfect way, is uh will be the perfect way to help someone else with their similar issue.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: But we also have to think through what is going to be the most logical process to take them from that point of pain to that point of promise.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: And our experience may not have been the most logical, if that makes sense, or the most orderly way for someone else to quote, get it, you know, unquote.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, it's it's uh it's fun and it, you know, it's challenging mentally.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, it just writing is just such a um satisfying profession.
20:49
SPEAKER_01: I feel like you can really help people from those pain points.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: Can you talk more about the concept of having a mentor book?
20:56
SPEAKER_00: I've actually never heard that term before.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: Now, I actually I do that with my own books as well as with client books.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: One of the things when I'm ghostwriting a project, one of the very first things that I do is I ask the client to give me two or three or four books that they kind of want their book to sound like or feel like.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: Not that they have to have to be exactly the same, of course, but give me two or three books that you kind of want yours to have the same vibe as that really helps me to capture their voice and kind of get into the client's headspace.
21:26
SPEAKER_00: But I've never heard that term, a a model or a mentor book.
21:31
SPEAKER_00: How do you have any suggestions on how to select a good mentor book when you're working on your own book?
21:38
SPEAKER_00: And should you have more than one?
21:40
SPEAKER_00: Or is it good to just kind of pick one and go with it?
21:43
SPEAKER_01: Really great question.
21:45
SPEAKER_01: Um, I you know, and I think I made up that term.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: So But I love it.
21:49
SPEAKER_00: It's absolutely perfect.
21:51
SPEAKER_00: I I'm probably gonna steal it.
21:53
SPEAKER_00: I'll put a little registered, you know, R with a circle around it.
21:57
SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: And and make sure you get the credit.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: I, you know, at my retreats that I hold for writers, I will have a half a dozen, you know, and typically the kind of storyboarding that we're doing and the teaching that I'll do leans more toward the Christian living book because that is probably the most popular one people are going to have in terms of nonfiction on their shelves.
22:18
SPEAKER_01: And so I'll have a half a dozen there, or I'll just sit, you know, advise them when I'm teaching, if it's virtually, you know, to go to your bookshelves.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: You know, what have you got there?
22:29
SPEAKER_01: Pull out a half a dozen books, take a look at them.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: Is there one because you've got an idea in your head?
22:36
SPEAKER_01: And so is there one that you know has a particular kind of form that you think structurally is going to work better for you?
22:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I use the model of a 48,000 a word book broken down into 12 chapters, you know, uh 4,000 words a chapter.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, chapters are becoming shorter.
22:56
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, there may be, you know, be maybe uh easier for the reader to get through a book that only has 3,000 word chapters or even 2,000 word chapters, or you know, I've I've seen Max Lucato books that are like a page, you know, chapters or a page, for example.
23:13
SPEAKER_01: Um, so you can you know take a look at that and you think through um, you know, have you as you've um kind of thought through your process, what are gonna be those particular teaching, the largest teaching points you have will become chapter titles.
23:27
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
23:28
SPEAKER_01: And then so if you if you got 20 of those, you know, then you're gonna look for a book that you know is kind of fashioned in that way.
23:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, have you got 12 of those?
23:38
SPEAKER_01: Have you got 16 of those?
23:40
SPEAKER_01: What you know, whatever whatever it is.
23:42
SPEAKER_01: So um, but yeah, and I just I just uh the book I just finished, I originally started with 14 chapters, um, and actually and 16 chapters actually, and then realized, oh, these two need to be combined, combined, they're too similar.
24:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, so I lapped them together, I ended up adding one of a different kind of uh you know thought that I'd gotten along the way.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, it's not like you're putting yourself completely into sealed boxes, but that you do you have a structure there.
24:20
SPEAKER_00: That makes a lot of sense, man.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like this would solve a lot of problems for people if you would just have a mentor book that you're looking at to give you some guidance, as opposed to feeling like you have to invent something totally from scratch, because you don't.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: Because there's really it doesn't matter what you create, there's already a book out there that probably already has what you have in mind.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: So save yourself a lot of time and energy and and look to that mentor book to give you some some guidance.
24:46
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
24:48
SPEAKER_00: I'd love to ask you about um about your writing habits.
24:51
SPEAKER_00: Do you have any particular habits or routines that have become really essential for you, like writing at a certain time or place or any kind of rituals that you have?
25:02
SPEAKER_01: I um start my day by reading God's word, you know, those couple chapters or more um from that.
25:11
SPEAKER_01: I spend most of my morning kind of focusing in on that scripture that kind of jumps out at me.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: I create a meme based on that scripture, and I post in about six or seven places on social media.
25:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, all of this is sort of meditative for me, and it helps to sink God's word into me.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: That's where I start that's the first piece of discipline as a writer that that I put into place in my day.
25:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, I do also blog every day.
25:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I know that you know you're um big on writing every day, and I do have found that that in the last three years or more that I've been doing this, it really has create you know freed up my creativity.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: I um write devotions for guideposts and for example, and I can write 10.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: I can I've written as many as 13 of those devotions, and they're not short in a day.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: So it's just that's fantastic.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: The process, the process of blogging on God's word every single day has really freed up, you know, freed up my writer's block.
26:19
SPEAKER_01: Um recently read, I can't remember what writer was who said recently that there's no such thing as writer's block.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, yes, maybe, perhaps.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: Um, but for me, I I feel like if I just sit contemplated contemplatively with God each day, that then we just go.
26:39
SPEAKER_01: We just go the rest of the day and the words come out.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, I also use a bullet journal every single day.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: Um, this particularly helps me um not only kind of keep track of appointments, but personal goals that I have, particularly when as a writer, when you're not working on a deadline, you need someone to give you a deadline.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: So you become your own editor that way.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: You give yourself deadlines.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: And I I am just like fanatically crazy about putting an X through all those bullets on my on my bullet journal every single day.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: And if if I have, if I've only put a slash on it or I didn't even get to it at all, it makes me crazy.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: So I um that has really been a really good tool I've used for the last three years.
27:29
SPEAKER_01: And um, it was Alice Kreider who suggested that to me.
27:32
SPEAKER_01: And actually, she gave me my first one.
27:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, she's a great um mentor.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, she was an editor of mine.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: I work with her and I did some editing for her, and um, she's just a terrific person.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: And um also, I you know, I have a regular calendar that I use, and I put put those, all those things into my bullet journal every single day.
27:54
SPEAKER_01: I think one process that's helped me with a bullet journal is the night before to put your bulleted items already in your bullet journal for the next day.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: So you have you don't have to worry about, oh, what's tomorrow?
28:06
SPEAKER_01: I don't even know.
28:07
SPEAKER_01: So as you're going to sleep, you it's already set up for you, you know what's expected, you're ready to go.
28:13
SPEAKER_01: Um and um I think in terms of disciplines, you know, that you know, I do all that uh all of that kind of thing in the morning.
28:22
SPEAKER_01: I take care of emails, marketing stuff, all that.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: I have lunch and then I write into the afternoon into the early evening.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of my process.
28:32
SPEAKER_01: I'm usually by dinner time, I'm I'm kind of spent.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm done.
28:37
SPEAKER_01: So um right now I'm I'm just watching Gilmore Girls in the evening.
28:44
SPEAKER_00: My wife can get along really well, she loves that show.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: That's all I can do.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: So you've written how many books at this point?
28:51
SPEAKER_00: Is it something like 25 or more?
28:54
SPEAKER_01: I just turned in my 26th book.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
28:56
SPEAKER_00: 26.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: So if somebody wants to take the journey through your books, can you recommend the one or two that maybe they should start with?
29:05
SPEAKER_01: Let's say um Pur Walk uh came out in 2001.
29:08
SPEAKER_01: It was a best-selling book, and it's uh still in print today with uh Waterbrook and Random House.
29:14
SPEAKER_01: And that was uh it was it ended up having a nine-page feature in Health magazine.
29:20
SPEAKER_01: So it's crossed over into all kinds of different audiences, and that was a fabulous experience.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then um another one, uh prayer streaming came a couple years after that.
29:31
SPEAKER_01: It's about praying without ceasing.
29:33
SPEAKER_01: The subtitle is um uh what's the subtitle?
29:39
SPEAKER_01: Um staying in touch with God all day long, and uh and then a more recent one that I did on prayer, uh, the complete guide to the prayers of Jesus, what Jesus prayed and how it will change your life today.
29:53
SPEAKER_01: And that's with Bethany House, and it's um everything uh maybe you've wanted to know about what Jesus taught on prayer, his prayer practices, and his prayers themselves.
30:04
SPEAKER_01: So um takes you through his prayer life.
30:08
SPEAKER_00: Now I know you've done a lot of work with publishers.
30:10
SPEAKER_00: I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about this.
30:12
SPEAKER_00: What are the advantages that you have found because you you've worked with a lot of publishers?
30:16
SPEAKER_00: What are the advantages to working with a traditional publisher versus self-publishing?
30:21
SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of people today, and I'm probably one of those, uh, I love self-publishing, and and I know obviously you recognize the benefits of that too.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: But what are the advantages of going kind of the old school way and working with a traditional publisher for your books?
30:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, I my traditional publishers give me an advance.
30:43
SPEAKER_01: It's an advance on royalties, and so that you know helps me justify the time that I'm going to put into a project.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: You know, because I primarily write nonfiction, um, I don't have to write a whole book in advance.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: Because maybe that project isn't, maybe a project that I propose isn't gonna hit the right readership.
31:07
SPEAKER_01: It's healthy to kind of know that ahead of time, you know, that it's whether it's gonna be sellable or not.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: So a publisher will kind of make that.
31:16
SPEAKER_01: They, you know, you certainly provide them with information about compare comp comparable books, but they will also do research to find out, you know, is there is there an audience for this?
31:27
SPEAKER_01: Is there a need, etc.?
31:29
SPEAKER_01: So um they partner with you um and they they help you uh work through the editorial process.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, you you will know that there are um many layers of edits.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, Kriegel is publishing this book I just turned in, and she told me that they do, you know, they well, they have a content or developmental let uh level of editing first.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: They do a copy edit, strong copy edit.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: Then they have three different proofreading levels.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: That's exceptional.
31:59
SPEAKER_00: Um that's really unusual, too.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: It seems it's exceptional.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: And um, the publishers, I've been really fortunate to work with really good publishers who have excellent editors, and um, so there's that level too, because sometimes you know that gets skimped on in the self-publishing route.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: And I often find lots of grammatical and spelling and punctuation errors all the time with um with books there.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: But you know, some people have a passion to get a message out.
32:30
SPEAKER_01: Perhaps they already have a speaking platform, you know, they're a podcaster, they want to add in, you know, have a different some products to be able to offer.
32:39
SPEAKER_01: So I don't think there's anything wrong with self-publishing or working with a hybrid publisher.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: I actually work for uh Redemption Press, which partners with people to publish their books.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: So um I'm the community manager for the She Writes for Him tribe, and I love hanging out with those writers.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: They're super, super lovely.
33:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, that that's really um that's really all thought-provoking because it's interesting to hear your perspective on on why you still love traditional publishing.
33:11
SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's so great because we have so many options today.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: Hybrid, traditional, indie publishing, uh, or all the above.
33:18
SPEAKER_00: You know, take your pick as to what according to what your goals are and what you want out of the whole process, or do all the above.
33:24
SPEAKER_00: Why not?
33:26
SPEAKER_00: I think they're all they're all great.
33:28
SPEAKER_00: Well, Jeanette, this has been a blast.
33:30
SPEAKER_00: I've really enjoyed this conversation.
33:32
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I've learned a lot and you've confirmed that I've been doing some things right.
33:36
SPEAKER_00: And I and you've also confirmed in my own heart that there are some things I can improve in in my choosing and mentor book process.
33:43
SPEAKER_00: So this has been great.
33:43
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you taking time to be on the Daily Rider podcast and sharing your wisdom with our listeners.
33:49
SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for having me, Ken.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: It's really been fun.
33:52
SPEAKER_00: Wasn't that a fun conversation?
33:54
SPEAKER_00: I enjoyed chatting with Janet and I felt so inspired by listening to her talk about different ways that we can study the form as writers and how we can apply that to the work that we're doing.
34:03
SPEAKER_00: You know, the work that we do as writers is fun and we should have a blast while we're doing it, but it's also serious business.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: What we do is a craft and it doesn't come naturally.
34:13
SPEAKER_00: It's something that we have to work at.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: We have to put the time and effort into it.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: You know, a lot of the reason that people get frustrated when they sit down to work on a book is that they feel like it should come easy.
34:23
SPEAKER_00: They feel like it should just come out and, you know, they should produce the first draft that's great and ready to publish and upload to Amazon or send to the agent or publisher or whatever.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: But the truth is that we have to work at this, my friends.
34:35
SPEAKER_00: We've got to put the time and effort into it.
34:37
SPEAKER_00: And I'm still thankful for people like Janet who have fun at what they're doing and they're very successful at it, but they also remind us that what we do is a craft that we have to study, that we have to take very seriously, and that we have to put the time and effort and the work into.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: So I hope that this has not intimidated you, but I hope that this is inspiring you to work hard, to put the time into your book, and to know that every time you put a book out there into the world, every time you do that blog post or you put that social media post up there, it's practice.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: You're getting a little bit better every time that you do it.
35:09
SPEAKER_00: So don't quit, don't give up, keep on pressing on.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: And if you need to re-listen to this conversation because, man, Janet is such an inspiring author and such an encourager.
35:18
SPEAKER_00: And I just want to thank her again for taking the time to be a guest on today's episode.
35:22
SPEAKER_00: And as always, I want to thank you for listening.
35:25
SPEAKER_00: I never take for granted the fact that you listen to this podcast, and I hope that today's episode has inspired you, as I hope it always does.
35:32
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening, and I'll see you tomorrow.