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Why MK Ultra Is the Most Frustrating Conspiracy Theory · Conspiracy! The Show

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  Speaker 1: Win True Insurance, GAD, I'm true good Truth, I'm a
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  Speaker 1: check out both get Thank you.
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  Speaker 2: Hey, everybody, welcome to Conspiracy The Show. I'm your host,
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  Speaker 2: Adam Todd Brown joining me as co.
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  Speaker 3: Host this week.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Ooh, my favorite co host of all no co host,
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  Speaker 2: but I do have a couple of fantastic guests. Case
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  Speaker 2: in point, first time guest Dante Wimberley.
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  Speaker 4: How's it going, man, how you guys doing. Glad to
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  Speaker 4: be here. Thanks for having me on.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you for doing it. I appreciate it. Tell the
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  Speaker 3: people a little bit about yourself.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm an artist. It was in a lot of
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  Speaker 1: movement spaces over the past decade. Been really active and
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  Speaker 1: involved in a lot of different social movements. Mostly an artist,
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  Speaker 1: self taught student, and yeah, just interested in all things political,
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  Speaker 1: interested in all things conspiracy and things like that.
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  Speaker 4: So I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me on.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you for doing it.
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  Speaker 2: Me and Dante are in a fantasy football league right now.
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  Speaker 2: That you know your three, I am oh and three.
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  Speaker 2: I'm getting fucking smoked right now.
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  Speaker 3: It's fine.
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  Speaker 2: I'll bring it around. Also joining us. You all know her,
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  Speaker 2: you all lover Hannah Michaels is here.
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  Speaker 5: Hey, what's up. I'm Hannah Michaels. I've been here before.
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  Speaker 5: I guess you know. Normally I would call myself the
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  Speaker 5: resident skeptic, except for things like mk Ultra.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, mk Ultra is one of my favorite things to
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  Speaker 2: talk about. We were just going to talk about this
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  Speaker 2: one mk Ultra figure and then I read this article
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  Speaker 2: during the research for this and it really sent me
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  Speaker 2: on a tangent because I really hate the way people
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  Speaker 2: talk about mk ultra, especially when they call it.
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  Speaker 3: A conspiracy theory. It's not.
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  Speaker 2: It's just a longstanding government program before we dive into it.
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  Speaker 2: Because I've talked about mkultra a bunch, But what's everyone
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  Speaker 2: else's familiarity with it?
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  Speaker 3: Dante? How about you?
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  Speaker 1: I feel like the biggest thing from mk Ultra was
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  Speaker 1: that the LSD experiments. I know people have kind of
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  Speaker 1: implicated the Manson family and a lot of the experiments
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  Speaker 1: that were happening, as well as other cults.
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  Speaker 4: But I feel like that's.
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  Speaker 1: The big thing from a cursory glance that sticks out
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  Speaker 1: for me is like attempts at my control. I know
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  Speaker 1: there were other, like more ridiculous elements, like trying to
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  Speaker 1: get people to use like telepathy or like psychokinesis or
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  Speaker 1: things like that, like just testing in the paranormal around
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  Speaker 1: other things. But I feel like, yeah, like the LSD
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  Speaker 1: experiments are probably the thing that's mostly great for me.
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  Speaker 4: When I think about MK Ultra.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I always wonder they did those all those LSD experiments.
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  Speaker 2: Did they just come out the other end realizing people
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  Speaker 2: fucking love LSD.
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  Speaker 3: Because it's great?
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  Speaker 5: It is great.
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  Speaker 3: You ever tried it? Wow, Chef's kiss fantastic.
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  Speaker 5: It's not super great when you take it, and then
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  Speaker 5: someone feels like they have to read their manifesto, so
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  Speaker 5: maybe the government version of it lest is not great.
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  Speaker 5: I've had them happen separately, so I can imagine if.
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  Speaker 2: I even knew someone who had a manifesto, I'd probably
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  Speaker 2: cut them out of my life.
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  Speaker 5: That's bro, you're a comic, you do.
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  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, probably that wouldn't.
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  Speaker 5: You just don't You just haven't been sent it yet.
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  Speaker 4: I just think they're right, manifesto.
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  Speaker 1: I'm willing to hear you out, but if your manifesto
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  Speaker 1: starts sounding wonky, I'm out of there for sure.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think my not really favorite. It's hard to
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  Speaker 2: say you have a favorite aspect of something as horrible
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  Speaker 2: as MK Ultra. But the part that has always stood
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  Speaker 2: out to me is as part of this, the CIA
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  Speaker 2: ran a brothel in San Francisco in the sixties, and
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  Speaker 2: people treat it like, Oh, isn't that wacky? My question
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  Speaker 2: is where did the girls come from.
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  Speaker 5: And how were they treated?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah? Were they government employees? Were they fucking kidnapped?
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  Speaker 5: Did they were they part of the experiment? Were they
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  Speaker 5: informed of that?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah?
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  Speaker 2: I do wonder if they were informed of that part,
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  Speaker 2: because it is exactly what it sounds like. The CIA
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  Speaker 2: set up a brothel and it had one of those
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  Speaker 2: police interrogation room mirrors in it, which if I walked
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  Speaker 2: into a brothel and saw that, I'd be like, all right,
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  Speaker 2: I'm out. You're obviously watching what's happening. And they would
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  Speaker 2: just watch dudes have sex with prostitutes.
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  Speaker 4: Probably front operation.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that CIA loves a fucking front.
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  Speaker 5: So many they love a front. Yeah, And they also
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  Speaker 5: love a way to use government funds to do some
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  Speaker 5: ship they want to do that's not legal.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 5: I mean cops love that. Lower level law enforcement loves that.
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  Speaker 3: So yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So yeah, like I said, we were gonna talk just
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  Speaker 2: about you and Cameron. But I found this article and
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  Speaker 2: I don't so much care about the subject of the article,
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  Speaker 2: which is this video of Cardi B on the red
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  Speaker 2: carpet at some event, I think it was twenty nineteen,
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  Speaker 2: and she's talking and then just like freezes up for
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  Speaker 2: a couple seconds, and people freaked out and said she
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  Speaker 2: was glitching out and that it was MK Ultra related,
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  Speaker 2: and it's like citation needed. To me, it looked like
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  Speaker 2: she just saw something off in the distance that caught
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  Speaker 2: her attention, because the woman interviewing her just starts going,
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  Speaker 2: it's good, it's good, it's good, and Cardi B was like, oh,
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  Speaker 2: it's good, okay.
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  Speaker 3: And people were like, she's been programmed.
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  Speaker 4: It's like, why Cardi B.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, what is Cardi B out there doing on
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  Speaker 2: behalf of the American government making songs making music about
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  Speaker 2: sex that's been happening.
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  Speaker 4: Destroying the community in the youth.
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  Speaker 2: There's that, yeah, yeah, And I don't care about that part.
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  Speaker 2: I think that is perfectly explainable. What I hate is
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  Speaker 2: the way this article treats this story. And I want
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  Speaker 2: to talk about a few different lines in this article
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  Speaker 2: that especially bothered me.
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  Speaker 3: The first one.
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  Speaker 2: Mk ultra is a wild conspiracy theory that has infiltrated
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  Speaker 2: certain corners of the Internet.
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  Speaker 3: End quote. No, it's not.
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  Speaker 2: It's a government program that ran for decades. It's not
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  Speaker 2: a conspiracy theory.
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  Speaker 5: They admitted to it. It's like when you say CIA
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  Speaker 5: sold crack to inner cities. They admitted to it. Yeah,
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  Speaker 5: those aren't conspiracies. You and I will argue about Bigfoot,
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  Speaker 5: but you can't argue about this.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm I want to believe when it comes to Bigfoot, Dante,
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  Speaker 2: are you you a Bigfoot believer?
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  Speaker 1: I'm not in the woods enough to say that Bigfoot
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  Speaker 1: doesn't exist.
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  Speaker 3: See, I agree, that's kind of my stance.
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  Speaker 2: I disagree with this idea that, oh we would see
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  Speaker 2: all over the place.
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  Speaker 3: Maybe they've evolved to avoid humans. That's I wouldn't mind
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  Speaker 3: doing that. I wouldn't mind evolving to avoid humans.
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  Speaker 4: Maybe bigfoot.
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  Speaker 5: But I mean my only issue is Pacific Northwest.
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  Speaker 3: Why would they go there? I agree with that that
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  Speaker 3: place sucks.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: So yeah, with mk ultra, the only reason we don't
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  Speaker 2: know more about it is the CIA shredded most of
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  Speaker 2: the documents pertaining to it after Watergate happened, and someone
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  Speaker 2: accidentally stored like twenty thousand documents in the wrong place
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  Speaker 2: and those never got shredded.
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  Speaker 3: And that's how we know about mk Ultra.
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  Speaker 1: So Watergate was also how we find out about cointelpro Right.
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  Speaker 4: I feel like that was the big Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I believe so, because like.
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  Speaker 1: A Watershap moment for a lot of CIA activities.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, because what happens after Watergate is the Church Committee hearings,
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  Speaker 2: which we're all about trying to bring the intelligence community
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  Speaker 2: to task. And that's where the thing where the CIA
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  Speaker 2: can't their shit on American citizens came from. It's like,
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  Speaker 2: we have eighteen intelligence agencies, they don't need to operate
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  Speaker 2: on Americans anymore. Yeah, And that actually leads to the
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  Speaker 2: next line. The mk Ultra program was officially a failure,
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  Speaker 2: with the CIA, embarrassed by its lack of concrete findings,
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  Speaker 2: shutting it down in nineteen seventy three. End quote again,
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  Speaker 2: fucking citation needed. Where is it in the historical record
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  Speaker 2: that the CIA was embarrassed by their lack of findings
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  Speaker 2: and shut this program down. I believe they shut it down,
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  Speaker 2: But yeah.
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  Speaker 5: I mean there were lack of There was a lack
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  Speaker 5: of findings in some areas, that any rational human could
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  Speaker 5: have told you there would be a lack of findings.
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  Speaker 5: You know, it's children playing with their money at that point.
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  Speaker 5: But right, there are some areas we just don't know.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and maybe they could have been embarrassed by I
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  Speaker 1: guess the more and I'm not as well right on it.
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  Speaker 4: I'll know only a little cursory about it.
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  Speaker 1: But maybe they were embarrassed by the more paranormal aspects
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  Speaker 1: of the program, where it's like, if you have to
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  Speaker 1: go in front of a congressional hearings, Sam, Yeah, we're
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  Speaker 1: trying to get people to lift things with their mind.
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  Speaker 4: I could see how that would be. Yeah, very embarrassing.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, we poured millions of dollars into this.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, we sure did.
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  Speaker 2: And yeah, I keep promising that I'm going to do
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  Speaker 2: a bunch of episodes about the Church Committee hearings, and
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  Speaker 2: I will. But one of the craziest moments from those
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  Speaker 2: hearings is I forget who's asking the questions, but they're
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  Speaker 2: talking to then CIA director I think it was Richard Helms,
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  Speaker 2: and they're like, what's going on with this shellfish tocsin gun?
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  Speaker 2: We heard you made a gun that you can assassinate
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  Speaker 2: people with. That shoots shellfish TOCs and arrows, and not
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  Speaker 2: only does he confirm it, he fucking pulls it out and.
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  Speaker 3: He's like, yeah, it's right here.
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  Speaker 2: It's Honestly, if you look into shellfish tocsin, if I'm
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  Speaker 2: ever assassinated, that's how I want it to happen.
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  Speaker 3: It sounds so fucking pleasant. You just there's no pain.
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  Speaker 3: You just fucking die.
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  Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, the CIA was into some crazy shit
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  Speaker 2: in the seventies, sixties, seventies.
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  Speaker 3: Fifties, all that.
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  Speaker 2: But when my nineties, nineties, two thousands, ten, yeah, forever, the.
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  Speaker 5: Hits of eighties nineties in today, Yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 3: They were especially hot in the eighties.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know what the CIA was up to in
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  Speaker 2: the nineties when we didn't have enemies. Probably trying to
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  Speaker 2: drum up new enemies.
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  Speaker 5: Oh for sure, I think was one of the things.
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  Speaker 1: Or they focused on Islamism. They were trying to recruit,
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  Speaker 1: They were trying to recruit Islamis to help topple regimes
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  Speaker 1: in the nineties.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, like PSI Afghanistan. They were really like trying to
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  Speaker 4: recruit Islamis.
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  Speaker 5: Was the shot of I ran earlier, or if that
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  Speaker 5: was earlier, that was.
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  Speaker 4: Seventies, right, seventies seventies.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, My thing about them saying they ended the program
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  Speaker 2: because there was a lack of results.
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  Speaker 3: Has anyone ever asked what results they were looking for?
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  Speaker 3: And how do they know there was a lack of results?
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  Speaker 2: What did they have people do after putting them through
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  Speaker 2: these experiments for them to determine there was a lack
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  Speaker 2: of results.
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  Speaker 3: I've never heard anyone answer that.
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  Speaker 1: Was the official story of the brainwashes like Machuria and candidate,
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  Speaker 1: Is that the official story that we were looking for,
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  Speaker 1: specifically how to brainwash people and get them to carry
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  Speaker 1: out task unwittingly.
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  Speaker 2: That's I think more of a rumor or a suspicion.
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  Speaker 2: I think the official explanation that they gave is that
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  Speaker 2: they were looking for like interrogation techniques and torture techniques.
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  Speaker 2: And the thing about mind control hasn't because they shredded
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  Speaker 2: all the documents, that hasn't ever been confirmed. But the
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  Speaker 2: CIA was interested in mind control for a long time,
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  Speaker 2: starting after I believe it was the Korean.
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  Speaker 1: War, because people were being flipped like prisoners of war
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: were being captured by like Chinese and Korean soldiers, and
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: they were like defecting. So the CIA was basically like, oh,
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: they're bringing brainwashed by the Communists. Like, we have to
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: like the communists literally just talk to them like, hey,
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  Speaker 1: you know you're fighting for the imperial power. You're they're
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: going to war to support corporations. Basically, yeah, talking to soldiers,
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: and soldiers were like defect. Yeah, a lot of soldiers
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  Speaker 1: would have defected, and so the CIA was like, oh,
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  Speaker 1: they're being brainwashed. We have to like get a hold
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  Speaker 1: on this brainwashing technique.
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  Speaker 5: There is kind of a through line with cults and
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  Speaker 5: cult de programming, because culti programming is just as unethical
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  Speaker 5: as the cult if the person doesn't agree to it.
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  Speaker 5: They used the same tactics as the cults.
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there's a fantastic documentary out there called Deprogrammed,
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  Speaker 2: and it's about a guy who was the premier cult
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: dprogrammer in the seventies and eighties, and all he would
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: do is kidnap motherfuckers off the street, lock them in
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  Speaker 2: a hotel room for a weekend.
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  Speaker 5: And be like adults on behest of their parents. Yeah,
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  Speaker 5: eighteen nineteen year.
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  Speaker 4: Olds like treatment, like what they do for trouble youth.
• 12:49
  Speaker 5: I forget the oh it was like those teen centers.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well they literally kidnap you in the middle
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  Speaker 1: of the night and then put you in like treatment.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah that all feels like mk ultra shit to me too.
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  Speaker 4: Probably aren't you.
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  Speaker 1: It was probably a photoground for a lot of test
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  Speaker 1: of making people highly suggestible.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me.
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  Speaker 2: And the thing about mind control when it comes to
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  Speaker 2: mk ultra, people always kind of scoff at the idea
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  Speaker 2: that maybe the CIA and the government was working on
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  Speaker 2: can we get someone to assassinate someone at our behest
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  Speaker 2: And people laugh that off even though mk ultra was
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  Speaker 2: happening when the entire high level progressive movement in this
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: country was getting assassinated, like year after year, motherfuckers were
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: getting assassinated in not always, but in a lot of
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: cases kind of weird mk ultra fashion, Like Malcolm X no,
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  Speaker 2: Fred Hampton, no, Bobby Kennedy. Yeah, that was some mk
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  Speaker 2: ultra shit. Martin Luther King probably, but we don't know
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  Speaker 2: who actually killed him, so there's no no word on that.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: But I mean we know officially, but that's a few
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: that's your episode, everybody. The time mlca's family sued the
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: government and one so yeah, A thing that is really
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: important to keep in mind about the CIA is they
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: are a collaboration with the Nazis. Operation paper Clip was
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: a thing that happened after World War Two where we
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: brought Nazi scientists, doctors, shit like that over and kind
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: of integrated them into the American government. And the CIA
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: at its foundation was half Office of Special Services I
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: think it's called that was a USA precursor to the CIA,
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: and the other half was just SS members. So our
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: biggest intelligence agency was half Nazi at its foundation. That's
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: not conspiracy theory shit either, Like Operation paper Clip, we
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: know all about that. And I guess my question would
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: be when did they stop being Nazis, because is that
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: how Nazis work?
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: Did they stop being that?
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: Or have we just had a half Nazi intelligence agency
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: this whole time that they seemed kind of Nazi?
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  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I think it's interesting the idea of
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: a Nazi. And that's even the dude we're going to
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: talk about you and camera, the notion that the Nazis
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: are somehow vastly different from like regular everyday people. It's
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: something that I find really really fascinating and really important
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: to like America's and also just the West in general's
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: like narrative post war is that these Nazis are like particularities,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: like they're specific and special, whereas like the Nazi ideology
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: is like, I mean, it's something specific to Germany, but
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: I guess the underlying fascism inherent with it is something
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: that's like very deep into the psyche of every European country.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: And it's his particular idea that it was something specific
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: about the Germans that made them do this I very
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: much disagree with. I think Hannah add has a book
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: about the banality of evil in that like anybody can
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: be made to commit atrocities as long as you're able
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  Speaker 1: to justify it through ideology or say, hey, yeah, I'm
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: doing this on behalf of something else.
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: I'm doing this to serve a greater purpose xyz.
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  Speaker 1: Like a lot of people can be made to commit
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  Speaker 1: atrocities without ultra tactics.
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  Speaker 4: To the general Milgrim experiment type.
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  Speaker 5: Absolutely, the only thing that I was wondering was a
• 16:08
  Speaker 5: failure was when you were talking about unknowing ly assassinate,
• 16:10
  Speaker 5: because you could absolutely get people to knowing le assassinate anyone.
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, I have a little bit about Bobby
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: Kennedy in the notes somewhere, but I think that's what
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: happened with him. I think Sir Hans Sirhan was the patsy,
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it. But I mean there's
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: documentaries and things out there that you can watch about it.
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  Speaker 2: Sir Hans Sirhan never got close enough to Bobby Kennedy
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: to fire the shot that killed him. Meanwhile, the LAPD
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: officer who was escorting Bobby Kennedy through the kitchen when
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: he was shot was a hardcore right winger who probably
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: didn't associate with Bobby Kennedy's politics that much. And the
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: shot that kills Kennedy is fired from point blank range
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  Speaker 2: behind his right ear, and it was like a twenty two.
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  Speaker 5: Interesting because it was actually, from what I remember, the
• 16:59
  Speaker 5: LAPD that confiscated that high school journalist's photos, not a
• 17:04
  Speaker 5: higher up government official.
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  Speaker 2: From what I remember, I could be wrong, Yeah, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: I mean, we don't have time to get into all
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: of the I did an episode about the Bobby Kennedy assassination.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: It's a fucking weird one and it feels the most
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: mk ultri to me except Reagan.
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: Reagan also, but I.
• 17:20
  Speaker 5: Guess Reagan's more Heritage Foundation, which I guess. You know,
• 17:23
  Speaker 5: you've got a blending of government interests. Anyway, where does
• 17:28
  Speaker 5: that end? When does m Kalterer begin? And things like
• 17:32
  Speaker 5: the Heritage Foundation.
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: One of my favorite unprovable conspiracy theories is the notion
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: that the CIA actually tried to kill Reagan because the
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: timeline works out because the Church Committee hearings happen. Jimmy
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Carter comes in office and is like, all right, we're
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: going to fucking put some restraints on the CIA, and then,
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: as if by magic, the then director of the CIA
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: decides to run for vice president for the first time
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: in history. That's George hw Bush, and they do this
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: sneaky shit in Iran with hostages the October Surprise to
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: get Reagan elected, and then what happens. Reagan almost gets
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: assassinated in weird MK ultra fashion, but he survives. I
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: think they were trying to fucking kill Reagan and put
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: George hw Bush in office to keep all those constraints
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: from being put on what they were doing, but can't
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: prove it. And even if I could, what the fuck
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: would happen. That's my whole thing about this. Every time
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: we talk about the CIA, it's like, what's the point?
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: This is like a true crime podcast. Basically we're just
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: marveling at the tactics of very skilled murderers and terrible people.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: But we could know all of this and it wouldn't matter.
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: We wouldn't bring anyone to justice.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: Do you think it's important ideologically for people to know,
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: because I think on some level most Americans would like
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: what the CIA. We can say, oh, the CIA has
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: done terrible things, but most Americans will say, oh, well,
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: they're doing this thing to serve American interests, which are
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: just like corporate interests.
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: So I don't know.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: Do you think it would be important to have that
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: discourse in order to get the majority of Americans to
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: I guess break with their attachment to the intelligence apparatus
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: as like something to uphold. Because if you asked, like
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: there are multiple people, was like, yeah, we should have
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: bolished the CIA. That was like a big I think
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: that was one of the things that Kennedy, you know,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: at least tacitly remarked of taking the CIA and destroying
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: it and scattering it into a bunch of pieces. So
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: like the notion of abolishing the CIA how do you
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: think people would respond to that. Do you think they
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: would respond positively or be like, I don't know, they
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: helped keep us safe like the police xyz.
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder if it would, And that is a
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: good point, like for that reason, people should definitely know
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: about more of what the CIA does. I wonder if,
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: just because of the times we're living in now, if
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: even that would just break on party lines, like there'd
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: be one side of the country that's like, oh shit,
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: we should abolish the CIA, And then I'm assuming the
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: right wingers would be like, no, they keep us safe.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: We need to top of those governments.
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: I think it would be flipped.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: Actually, I think the right wing is very anti establishment conspiratorial,
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: So if any there may I feel like the left, well,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: I don't want to say the left, but I feel
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: like the Democrats would probably be the one that says, oh,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: it's important to have the.
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: Democratic candidates would certainly uphold yeah, yeah.
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: Whereas the right wing would be like they would just
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: feed the base.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like this fuck the deep state, like fu the
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: you know, the puppets working they're trying to kill Trumpe YadA, YadA, YadA.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: I could definitely see the right wing being the one
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: most gun co about abolishing the CIA, and the Democrats
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: specifically would be like, no, we need these institutions in place.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: That's one of the frustrating things about right wingers in
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: their push to abolish the FBI.
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, but.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: I think we want that for different reasons. I think
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: you just want a right wing version of the FBI
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: to replace the current FBI.
• 20:54
  Speaker 5: And I'm like, are is the current the right wing
• 20:58
  Speaker 5: version of the FBI?
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, statute, but like a more right wing version, yes,
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: if that's fucking possible. I wrote a substack article about this.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: I went to an FBI exhibit at the Ronald Reagan Library,
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: which fucking shivers. But there is a room in the
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: Reagan Library where they just play him getting shot on
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: loop and it's like two minutes, so you can see
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: it like twenty fucking times if you stay there long enough.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: And I lingered for a little bit. But in the
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: FBI exhibit, they had a plaque on the wall that
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: was all about how dedicated they've been to upholding civil
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: rights over the years, and it's like, Oh, at least
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: you have a fucking sense of humor about things. In
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: what world has the FBI upheld civil rights?
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: It's fucking nuts.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's it's super tough because even though the
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: FBI was the main ones doing like the cointail pro
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: and the mass surveillance and the breaking up of organizations,
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: I feel like over the last thirty years they have
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: really been big in terms of trying to combat hay crimes. Yeah,
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: at least rhetorically, the FBI is kind of the and
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: that's the thing of like, oh, the FBI investigate hate,
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: hate crime, and hate groups. So it's the FBI that's
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: stifling the domestic terrorists in the in the right waying
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: malicious is that the FBI is the institution that keeps
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: a bay the worst elements of you know, American society.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: So it is a very that's their rhetoric. That's like
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: the rhetoric they use. So it is a very complicated
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: like tugging pool.
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true. Yeah.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: The that actually comes up in has anyone seen Civil War?
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: The Civil War move just came out. That's one of
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: the first things they bring up. They're talking to President
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: fucking Parks and Rex I forget his name, but they're like,
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: do you regret disbanding the FBI. It's like, Oh, is
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: that what's going to happen if we disband the FBI?
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Probably Yeah, I mean I get that we need intelligence agencies.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: I guess we need police.
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that at all.
• 22:56
  Speaker 5: And that the way they're currently structured.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the thing, like it, I don't know if
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: FBI police any of that shit CIA. I don't know
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: if any of that can be fixed, Like it needs
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: to be burnt down and rebuilt.
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: I think it's important to have investigators, but when you
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: bring these investigators and put them along with the court
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: system and just the American injustice system's apparatus, it just
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: turns into so the idea of like, oh, if there's
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: a crime that happens, or something happens to somebody, it's
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: good to have people that are on the scene and
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: investigated and can figure out what's going on. But when
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: you talk about bringing those people to as similis of justice,
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: that's where it gets like tricky because it's like all
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: these other factors come into play with the court system
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: and the prison system and XYZB.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, let's talk about another line from this article,
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: I swear we'll talk about this doctor.
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: In a minute. But here goes quote.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: With the Internet, you have this free flow of information
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: that has taken this nugget of our history and made
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: it into this huge, huge entity end quote.
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: Motherfucker.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: We are not even too hundred and fifty years old
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: as a country. This program ran for a minimum of
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: twenty years, so that's like damn near ten percent something
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: like that.
• 24:07
  Speaker 5: Now, it's not like there aren't still people alive in
• 24:10
  Speaker 5: loved in this.
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, And there were like precursors of this that date
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: back to nineteen forty five. And when you couple that
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: with when this happened, which was the end of World
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: War Two, which is a highly pivotal moment in American history,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: I don't know how you write this off as a
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: nugget of our history.
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: This is so fucking important to our history.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: I think that's this is what we were as a
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: country after World War Two.
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: We were just.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: Fucking doing human experiments on people and seeing what worked.
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: That's our history.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: And that's the fact that they even used like a
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: government source is also very telling in the article because
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: this notion that oh, using the government source because they're
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: an expert and they're going to be like unbiased, as
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: if they have no incentive to give a certain narrative
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: or give a certain story. Is like just frustrating from
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: a journalistic standpoint.
• 25:03
  Speaker 5: Yeah, no, this is why we need to protect independent
• 25:05
  Speaker 5: journalism and where.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I get really frustrated when with any kind of
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: government scandal anything.
• 25:14
  Speaker 3: A good example is Joe Biden.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: There was a Parkinson's doctor that visited the White House
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: like every month for the past year, and a lot
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: of people rightfully asked, well.
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: Does Joe Biden have Parkinson's what's that about?
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: And the White House issued this thing and was like, no,
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: we just had an event every month that required this
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: Parkinson's doctor to be there, and it's like cool cover story.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: Who's going to ask the follow up questions?
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: No?
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: One Like that is what people consider debunking something is
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: asking well, hey, government, did you do this? And the
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: government says no, and they're like, see, this is fake news.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: It's like the government's not going to say yes. When
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: is anyone suspected of anything going to just be like, oh,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: you got me, You've fucking got me.
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: I did it.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: But that's how so many mainstream outlets work now. They
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: function based on their access to the government, and that's
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: not how that should work.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, knowledge production, knowledge production is really big. I think
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: full Cola has a quote about how, like knowledge, the
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: production of knowledge isn't removed from power. So it's like
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: the idea that knowledge is here and power is here,
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: and like somehow in the middle is like where it's like,
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: no knowledge comes from power. The notion of oh, having
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: a quote or a source, and is that source credible?
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: How many even just the notion of like articles as
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: well academic or scientific articles, and about how just knowledge
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: is produced in general is not removed from power, and
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: oftentimes knowledge reinforces power and reinforces power relations within you know,
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: whatever you're talking about.
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And that kind of brings me to not
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: the last line, but one of the last lines from
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: this article I want to talk about. This is the
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: thing you hear every time a conspiracy expert pops up
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: to talk about a conspiracy theory. You hear some variation
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: of this. This is a quote conspiracy is a low
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: us to make sense of the inexplicable in a world
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: that's too complicated already.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: End quote.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: You hear that all the time, as if people are
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: just grasping for straws as opposed to just looking for
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: answers from the government.
• 27:16
  Speaker 5: I mean, I think that applies to a lot of conspiracies,
• 27:19
  Speaker 5: definitely not this one.
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, it's a case by case thing.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: And when you get these experts who just broadly say, oh, yeah,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: any conspiracy theory, it's just people looking for answers to
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: the fucked up universe, It's like, no, sometimes people just
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: want answers that are available from the government. And the
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: example I put in the notes is Saudi Arabia's involvement
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: in nine to eleven. Like, the families forever have been
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: trying to sue Saudi Arabia or at least ask Saudi
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: Arabia what their actual involvement was, and they keep getting
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: stonewalled by the American government. The bin Laden family, we know,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: was allowed to fly out of the United States at
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: a point when the skies were locked the fuck down.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: Are those nine to eleven families crazy? Are they looking
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: for answers in a complicated world that doesn't make sense?
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: No, they want the truth from the fucking government.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: And I think one of the most effective I don't
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: know who started it, but the most effective thing the
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: government ever did in shutting down dissent, in my opinion,
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: is the phrase conspiracy theory. Like, once you attach that
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: to a story, it puts such a stink on it
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: to where, oh, you're one of those ten foil hat
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: motherfuckers sitting in your mom's basement typing on your blog.
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: It's like, motherfucking no one has blogs anymore. But it
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: just makes it so they never.
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: Really have our critical discussion anymore.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just immediately, Oh, your question in the government, Well,
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: you're a conspiracy theorist.
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: It's like, Nope, it's not actually how that works. You're
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: supposed to question the government.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and all right, last line for this article. Here's
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: the last quote before we talk about you and Cameron. However,
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: mk Ultra is also the canary for something all to
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: apparent about the present. When it's easier to blame a
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: conspiracy about mind control than it is to face our political.
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: Differences, then something is very wrong. End quote. How the
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: fuck did we get there? From Cardi B.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't like, no one was questioning political differences
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: or anything. They were just like, why is Cardi B's
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: face like that? And now at the end we're getting
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: admonished for like blaming our Yeah, it's crazy. All right,
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: let's talk about doctor Donald, you and Cameron. I've done
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: mk Ultra episodes before and we talked about this guy
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: a little bit, but he deserves a little more attention.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: And I think the reason he deserves more attention is
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: if you're one of these people who's like, oh.
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: Mk Ultra, it's a conspiracy theory. Just look into this guy.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: There's still articles being written about this guy and the
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: actual real world things he did and the damage he caused.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: It's not a fucking conspiracy theory. It's just something that happened.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: And this article that got me so riled up. One
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: of the things they talk about is how crazy it
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: is that we're still talking about mk Ultra in this
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: article was twenty nineteen.
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: It's like, I think it's crazy that we don't talk
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: about it more. It's such a big deal.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: And doctor Ewan, I mean, I hate calling him doctor
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: ew and Cameron. He makes for a good counter to
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: the idea that mk Ultra was some kind of blip
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: on the radar. America always gets the credit for mk Ultra,
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: but it was actually kind of a joint thing between
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: us and Canada, and a lot of the stuff happened
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: in Canada, which is crazy because Canadians are so nice.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: And while the American government has never really had to
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: answer for mk ultra in any way, Canada has, there
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: have been a shit ton of lawsuits filed there and
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: a lot of those have to do with doctor Cameron.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: So let's talk about this fuck face. He was born
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: in Scotland, educated in Scotland, moved around a bunch between
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: the US, Europe, and Canada. He was known to dabble
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: in outlandish experiments even before the CIA signed him. Case
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: in point, in nineteen thirty four, he published a study
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: where to test the effects of body temperature, he would
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: put a person in a room that was heated to
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: one hundred and seven degrees for an hour and then
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: would just toss them in cold water and see if
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: that cured their schizophrenia. Madison used to be so wild.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: There's so many examples of shit like this, and of
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: course it did nothing to cure their schizophrenia.
• 31:36
  Speaker 5: This is why I'm a coach, not a therapist right here,
• 31:40
  Speaker 5: that's just my day job. It doesn't matter for this.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: But this is why you've never tried this on anyone
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: to see if it gets their project going.
• 31:47
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, see if it helps them reach their personal goals. Yeah,
• 31:51
  Speaker 5: I should give it a shot. Yeah sounds great, sounds
• 31:54
  Speaker 5: like something they would I would definitely not get sued
• 31:56
  Speaker 5: for as someone with fewer legal protect then a therapist.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: He also did an experiment where he tested the effects
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: of dehydration on people with epilepsy by not giving them water.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: It's like that, what is that supposed to do for
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: someone's epilepsy?
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: Man, that's crazy, And it didn't do anything to reduce epilepsy.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: People just started like stealing food and drinks from other
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: people who weren't being experimented on. They were drinking out
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: of flower vases, eating snow from windowsills, and also everyone
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: experienced severe weight loss and acidosis.
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: In one patient died.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: So of course we could bring this guy in to
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: help with our government shit. And what's interesting is a
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: lot of this kind of mirrors what Nazis were doing.
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: Almost at the same time.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: Like they had experiments where they would just throw people
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: out in cold weather to see what happened. They also
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: did experiments where they would deprive people of water just
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: to see what happened. So this guy is kind of
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: a good fit.
• 32:55
  Speaker 5: For there's a reason that they targeted disabled people.
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's mostly people who couldn't fight back is who
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: got targeted here. And so in nineteen forty three he
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: settles in Montreal at McGill University, and that's where we
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: get this supervillain origin story sounding detail.
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: Here's a quote.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: In nineteen forty three, Cameron set up his research laboratory
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: known as the Allen Memorial Institute in Raven's Crag, a
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: mansion that formerly belonged to Sir Hugh Allen end quote.
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: So he's doing this shit in like a castle or something.
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: I like that part's interesting. But given the similarities between
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: his work, like I said, it's only right that he
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: was involved in MK Ultra. But he was also sent
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: to the Nuremberg Trials to figure out why Rudolph hess
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: especially was so fanatical about Hitler. And unlike most of
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: the people who were involved in the Nuremberg Trials who
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: came out the other end like holy shit, we better
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: never do that again, this motherfucker just came out the
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: other end thinking and society consists of a weak class
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: and a strong class, and that he was very concerned
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: about the weak class reproducing.
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: It's like, Oh, that sounds like Nazi shit.
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: Literally, So that point of in reading about him and reading.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: About his ideas, he's describing himself, Like when when he
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: talks about the German population and about how people are
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: scared and afraid, and I don't know, it feels like
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: in a lot of his critiques about German society and
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: the quote unquote German race, like he's kind of talking
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: about himself because he sounds like the paranoid one. He
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: sounds like the one that's Oh, we have to like
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: these Germans are gonna kill again, we have to organize society.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: Society is full of dangerous people, and we have to
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: get these weak and dangerous people out of society. Like
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: it just so much mirrors the very thing that he's,
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: you know, set purporting to go against. But you can
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: see his own anxiety and paranoia within, like his railing
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: against weaker populations or weaker peoples.
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: Yes, and it is such a projection. Because he knows
• 34:57
  Speaker 5: what he's capable of doing to quote unquot weaker people,
• 35:01
  Speaker 5: he's going to assume the rest of the world is
• 35:02
  Speaker 5: that way.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because he had already been doing it before that.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: Those experiments I just described, those were way before he
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: signs on.
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: With the CIA.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: But the CIA actually when they first caught wind of
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: what he was doing, they were at McGill University to
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: look into the work of a colleague of his, guy
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: named doctor Donald olding Hebb. And this guy also conducted
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: psychological experiments on people, but he used willing participants and
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: paid them, and I imagine the CIA was like, well,
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: that's fucking boring.
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: What else do we got? And that's when they landed
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: on you and Cameron.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: He was a colleague of doctor Hebb, but he took
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: doctor Hebb's work in a way more extreme direction where
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: he was forcing people to take part in these experiments
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: without them knowing, And the CIA being the CIA, they
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: were like that you want that, You want that one,
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: not the fucking consent.
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: Get the fuck out of here, or the CIA.
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: The review board, what nah, we don't need that.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: And the most any of doctor Hebb's patients lasted under
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: sensory deprivation because that's what he would do. Doctor Hebb
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: would just basically strap you to a table, put goggles
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: on you so you couldn't hear anything, see anything, and
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: would just see how long you lasted, and even that
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: drove people crazy. By the end of these experiments, people
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: are hallucinating and shit. But the longest he ever kept
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: anyone under was six days. Doctor Cameron was keeping people
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: under for up to thirty.
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: Five days at a time.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: That was his whole fucking thing is people would show
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: up at this it was called the Allen Institute, named
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: after the fucking former castle owner where he operated. Out
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: of people would show up for like postpartum depression, anxiety,
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: like really basic shit, and they'd end up getting this,
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: like they would get put into a medically induced coma
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: and fucking experimented on.
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: And that carried on for fucking decades.
• 37:09
  Speaker 5: Say it still carries on in our prison system.
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that is true.
• 37:12
  Speaker 5: The population of people in prison who are there because
• 37:16
  Speaker 5: they're in need of some mental health care.
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: Yes, that's insane.
• 37:19
  Speaker 5: I mean that's solitary confinement. You're describing solitary confinement right, right.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: But with doctor Cameron, he would do that, like he
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: would put people under, but he would also like make suggestions,
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: he would play recordings. He was literally trying to reprogram people.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: And so three years after mk Ultra was founded, the
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: CIA approached doctor Cameron through an outfit called the Society
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: for the Investigation of Human Ecology, which is just a
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: CIA front for fucking who knows what, but they use
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: that to funnel money to people conducting the kind.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: Of research they were interested in.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: And they allegedly encouraged him to apply for this grant.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: He applies for, he immediately gets it. It's sixty thousand dollars,
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: which is equivalent to just under six hundred and ninety
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: thousand in today's money. And what he was doing to people,
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: there were kind of two aspects of it. It was depatterning,
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: was what he called it, and that means your brain
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: is just a blank slate that the person experimenting on
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: you can rebuild in whatever way they see fit. And
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: I think this part's important for people who believe the
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: idea that mk Ultra ended because there were no results.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: This guy was getting results, and there is decades and
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: decades of lawsuits that prove it. At least this part
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: he was really good at. He could wipe a person's
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: brain clean to the point that they just forget who
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: they are.
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: And the way he would do it.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: First he would put people in a drug induced coma,
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: and the drugs he would use were like anything from
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: like thorazine to stuff you'd see in hospitals LSD. I
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: don't know how you fucking put a person in a
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: coma with LSD that does not track.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: Also, they mentioned PCP at one point.
• 39:08
  Speaker 5: I wonder how long that sounds like the opposite of
• 39:10
  Speaker 5: a coma, But.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know that either. Those both seem very
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: stimulant like to me. But after this drug induced coma,
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: which would last for ten days or more, then he
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: would do electroconvulsive shock therapy in way higher amounts than Oh.
• 39:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that has been proven to effect short term memory.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and with that you would be like, after enough
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: of that, your brain is just like blank, like you forget.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: There's stories we'll talk about. There's a woman who forgot
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: how to boil water because of this. It's really fundamentally
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: changing people. And so the part where the CIA stopped
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: because they didn't get any results. Here's what doctor Cameron
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: said in a nineteen sixty one paper for the Canadian
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: Psychiatric Association Journal about what he'd learned from his work
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: over the years. This is a little long, sorry. One
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: the key component of the psychic driving theory, verbal signals
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: lead to changes in behavior.
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: Two.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: These statements can be set up by the experimenter. Three,
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: a patient's personality set can be temporarily broken up by
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: means such as induced sleep and electroshock therapy.
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: Four.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: Personality changes are more effectively induced when targeting a dormant
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: behavioral pattern.
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: Five.
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: Repeated verbal signals can cause physiological changes as well as
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: psychological ones, such as the flexer extensor dominance of forearm muscles,
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: and six. These methods are more effective when follow up
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: psychic driving sessions are provided for weeks or months after
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: the initial procedure. So it sounds like he was getting
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: some shit done to me.
• 40:45
  Speaker 5: And a lot of the shit that he was getting
• 40:47
  Speaker 5: done sounds very similar to what cults do we were
• 40:50
  Speaker 5: talking about, so yeah, we kind of know.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: I find it interesting though, like he was the head
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: of a lot of these different psychological associations. Goes back
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: to the idea about like knowledge and power, and this
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: is like, yet it doesn't seem that it's not that
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: hard to break a human psyche, Like it's not that hard,
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: Like he's just kind of always just got to drug
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: you up and sequester you for days on end, like, Yeah,
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: I don't think it would be that difficult.
• 41:17
  Speaker 5: No, Jordan Peterson did it to himself willingly. I mean,
• 41:22
  Speaker 5: it's not hard to break a person.
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: His psyche isn't that hard to break. But no, it.
• 41:29
  Speaker 5: Probably wasn't great before the self induced coma.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he was doing all of this under the guise
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: of treating schizophrenia, and that part seemed like it sort
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: of worked, but only because the people like also forgot
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: they were fucking schizophrenic.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: Like, it just eliminated that part.
• 41:47
  Speaker 5: So I'm sure behavior so much. And I'm sure that
• 41:51
  Speaker 5: they still experienced hallucinations in some form.
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: And the idea that doctor Cameron knew he was being
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: funded by the CIA is still kind of open for debate.
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: But I also don't think it matters that much.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: Like it seemed to CIA wasn't important to him. He
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: was more so focused on his research, so he would
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: have took money from anyone.
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: And this is a quote from one of doctor Cameron's patients.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: We hanged Nazis for doing the sort of things Cameron
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: did end quote, And that's true, that is absolutely true.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: And yeah, Dante, you just mentioned the associations he was
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: the head of. Let's run through some of them, the
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: American Psychiatric Association, the Canadian Psychiatric Association, the American Psychopathological Association,
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: the Society of Biological Psychiatry, and the World Psychiatric Association.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: This is a prominent fucking doctor in psychiatry. And he
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: was an MK ultra doctor too. That's the only like
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: when scientology always talks about their aversion to mental health treatment,
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: I wonder if it's coming from this, and because.
• 43:06
  Speaker 5: They've also tried to infiltrate the government and l Ron
• 43:09
  Speaker 5: Hubbard did need psychological treatment.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: He sure did, But I think that's also I think
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: that actually is more why scientology is so anti mental health.
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: I think he just had a fucking bone to pick.
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: I think it's important to note there's a book that
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: I'm currently reading, but I gotta finish it in Madness
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: and Civilization and Fouco talks a lot about how the
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: notion of curing people that have mental health issues. For
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: a long time in society, like for human history, people
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: have had like mental health issues, and of course the
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: direction mental health issues take is very dependent on you
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: know that society and like the ins and outs of it,
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: but like kind of seeing it as, oh, this is
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: just these people are just a part of society, but
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: especially in Europe around post enlightenment, and you get this
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: sort of scientific medicalization of it to now like we
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: have to treat people, and it's like that it's always
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: under the eyes of helping, so doing these experiments literally
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: torturing people.
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: And even when you think.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: Today about shit like conversion therapy, it's always under the
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: guise of helping or under the guiys of therapy. But
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: I think it's really important to look into the roots
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: of like therapy or treatment and see like the darkness
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: that's there of like when you say helping, who are
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: you helping?
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: How is it helping?
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: And all that To say, I think it's reasonable to
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: have a suspicion of like just the mainstream mental health
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: discourse just because of a lot of these figures. I'm
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: sure he wasn't the only doctor that thought that or
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: that had these ideas about the week and the strong
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: and I'm sure it was the practice across the board
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: for a lot of these doctors.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's actually one of the defenses people make for
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: this guy is yeah, this all sounds crazy, but that
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: was kind of just medicine in the thirties and forties,
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: Like a lot of people were doing these crazy ass experiments,
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: And I mean that's a valid point, but also fucking
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: don't get caught.
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: He got caught.
• 45:00
  Speaker 5: We also the idea of curing people of these chronic
• 45:03
  Speaker 5: issues that we truly know nothing about. Even now, we
• 45:08
  Speaker 5: barely scratch the surface of what causes them. So the
• 45:12
  Speaker 5: idea of curing instead of just supporting people in whatever
• 45:15
  Speaker 5: they need is still prevalent and still kind of the
• 45:20
  Speaker 5: idea of what relying on behaviorism. I don't know, there
• 45:22
  Speaker 5: are a lot of problems that persist because of this history.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: Well, the notion of healthy, like the very notion of
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: what is a healthy body is created juxtaposed to like
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: debarcading me insane. So in order to demarcate healthy and
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: you have to like say this is unhealthy. So it's
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: like even in the notion of treatment, it's just very
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: jumble and it's not as cut and dry or even
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: quote unquote scientific. It's really not as scientific as we
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: would like to believe.
• 45:50
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it is a very soft science. Like that consent
• 45:53
  Speaker 5: issue is huge. Unhealthy and healthy have to be determined
• 45:58
  Speaker 5: by the patient must be. Yeah, and it's in other
• 46:02
  Speaker 5: areas of medicine too, just not as easy. It doesn't
• 46:05
  Speaker 5: worm its way in quite as easily, because you know,
• 46:08
  Speaker 5: psychology is a soft science. But like we still rely
• 46:12
  Speaker 5: on B and Mian shit. We know that's bullshit.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of junk science out there. We
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: are if we haven't, I say we meaning the country,
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: but it's also I think, just is it Missouri where
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: it's happening. They're about to execute a guy over shaking
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: baby syndrome, which is shaking baby syndrome is nonsense, like
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: not and I don't mean that in that Yeah, shake
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: the shit out of a baby.
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: They'll be fine. No they won't.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: But if you've ever seen that demonstration, that baby's head
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: is fucking flopping back and forth, it's a baby. That
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: head would fucking fly off if you were shaking a
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: baby that hard. So any shaking baby syndrome case that
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: doesn't involve neck injuries, also, that person is probably innocent
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: because there was one doctor who put out this report
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: that said, if you have these three symptoms, it can
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: only be shaken baby syndrome. And meanwhile, these symptoms can
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: be caused by a lack of vitamin D. They can
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: be caused from falling shaking baby syndrome. The science behind
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: it would have you believe a child cannot get a
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: head injury from falling off of a changing table or
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: a bed, and it's like anyone can get a fall
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: like nuts and so as you'd expect from experiments meant
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: to turn people into a blank slate.
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: There are a lot of lawsuits over this.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: We'll link to a nineteen eighty five Washington Post article
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: about some of the victims of Cameron that were attempting
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: to sue the government. That lawsuit was filed in nineteen
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: eighty and the CIA successfully stonewalled that until I think
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: eighty eight, when the case was finally settled for seven
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: hundred and fifty thousand dollars that eight people got to
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: split among them.
• 47:55
  Speaker 5: Hasn't even covered therapy for the rest of their lives.
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: No, No.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: One of the things that really caught my attention when
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: I opened this article was the first name you read,
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: Harvey Weinstein.
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: I was like, Oh, is it that one. It's not,
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: it's not.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: It's just the name of a guy whose father got
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: experimented on, and his father's name was Lewis. He checked
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: in due to respiratory and digestive issues caused by anxiety,
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: and was immediately subjected to deep patterning and psychic driving.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: This is a quote from his son, who describes his
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: father as a lost soul with no social sense, how
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: to keep clean, how to carry on a conversation.
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: They took his self away from him. End quote.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: And we'll link to articles about it. That's every fucking
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: account of this is Oh. I came out the other
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: end like a I don't even know who I am anymore,
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: like I know my name, I know my kids barely,
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: But yond that, it really is a blank slate. And
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: I think that's where the question of oh, the CIA
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: didn't get results, That's where that question needs to be asked.
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: What were these people supposed to do after this? I
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: really want to know that part.
• 49:07
  Speaker 5: Like what results were they looking for?
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because they did this for decades and decades, they
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: had to be achieving something, but we'll never know, and
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: so the Yeah, there's also doctor Mary Morrow. She approached
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: Cameron for a fellowship in psychiatry at the hospital he
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: worked at, and he was like, Nah, you seem sick.
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: We should probably check you in she underwent electroshock treatment
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: for eleven days along with induced sleep, all of which
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: resulted in a brain anoxia, which means not enough oxygen
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: reaching the brain. She had to be hospitalized and for
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: the rest of her life suffered from propognosia, which is
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: the inability to recognize faces.
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: So that's crazy.
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean there's the episodes getting a little
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: long in the tooth, so we don't have to go
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: through all these other examples. And also it's they're all
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: pretty fucking horrifying. I don't want to end this just
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: listing off graphic details of people getting abused, but that's
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: what this is, and people are still trying to get
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: justice for this. There are still lawsuits making their way
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: through the court system right now that are about MK ultra.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: So don't let magazine or Variety whoever it was, tell
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: you that mk ultra is a wild conspiracy theory.
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: It's wild. It's wild, for sure, But that shit happened,
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: and I think that's our.
• 50:31
  Speaker 5: Carty B's allowed to space out. That happens happens to
• 50:34
  Speaker 5: everybody all the time.
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah too, Yeah, that's seen.
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: It's such a crazy idea that also when people are
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: like Oh that's mk ultra.
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: How and for what?
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: Mkultra was just designed to make celebrities glitch out on
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: the red carpet. That doesn't make any sense, but I
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: think that's our episode. Do we have any final thoughts
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: on mk ultra and doctor Ewan Cameron?
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: He died of a heart attack on a hike.
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: Oh I like that.
• 51:03
  Speaker 4: Sixty Yeah, so he died.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I wish he lived longer to face a little
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: more repercussions from this.
• 51:11
  Speaker 5: Part of me does, and part of me thinks like
• 51:13
  Speaker 5: he wouldn't care.
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I could see that or justify it.
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, what repercussions would there really be because they're
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: having I mean, aside from the American government paying out
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars, which I'm sure almost
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: brought this country to its knees. Beyond that, like, there's
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: not really been any justice for this, which is fucking nuts,
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: and calling it a wild conspiracy theory makes it even
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: less likely that that justice will ever happen.
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: So stop doing it.
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: And hey, Hannah Dante, thank you both for doing the podcast.
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: I really appreciate it.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: This seems like a great time to plug shit, what
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: do we have to plug before we get out of here.
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: I have a solo podcast called in Broad Daylight that
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: you can hear wherever podcasts are at.
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: Listen to that. Dante, what do you got to plumb?
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: I would just say you follow me on Instagram. Like
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: I said, I'm an artist. I release snippets of my
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: music on Instagram. If you're looking for my music, you
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: can check out my instagram whenbow XIV on Instagram, just
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: like it is in my name tack right there, nice.
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: Hannah, what do you got?
• 52:15
  Speaker 5: Just all my socials it's spelled h A N A
• 52:17
  Speaker 5: and my ch E L S because oh a side
• 52:21
  Speaker 5: of the family. Yeah, it's a mess, but that's what
• 52:25
  Speaker 5: it is, all.
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: Right, and I think that's it. Let's get the fuck
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: out of here. Hannahs say goodbye, goodbye.
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: Dante, say goodbye, farewell, farewell, goodbye everybody, and we love you.