Latest / The You Project / #2130 It's Hard Until It's Easy - Bobby Cappuccio

Transcript

#2130 It's Hard Until It's Easy - Bobby Cappuccio · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: O good.
• 0:01
  Speaker 2: A team, it's a project. That's you, It's Bobby, it's Tiffany,
• 0:03
  Speaker 2: and it's me Craig Anthony. We're going to start with
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: tiff because she's been crooked. Are you on the men?
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: How are you?
• 0:09
  Speaker 3: I'm feeling much better, but I've got that raspy, ridiculous
• 0:13
  Speaker 3: horse cough that incidentally, How good is laughing when you
• 0:17
  Speaker 3: have that wheezy, weird kind of thing. I just think
• 0:21
  Speaker 3: laughing so much more fun.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: You know what?
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: It makes you sound like a dirty old man? See
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: there it is there, It is dirty old man.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Laugh.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Hell, that's you. Dude, like a flannel shirt and a
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: packet of winning blues in your pocket and you just
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: tag your hand on your crotch while you're doing that laugh.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: That's you.
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: I've got a flanny shirt here, actually.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, put it on listening.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: You know who?
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: You sound like that cartoon character Muttley. Do you remember Mutley? Bobby?
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Think?
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: I'm like, I know there's a cannoon that sounds like this.
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Muttley Bobby? Did you ever watch.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: What Is with You?
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: I was going to say, when they let you out
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: of the basement, what.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: Are you laughing at? Your dirty old man.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: Oh fuck, listen to that. That's worse than I thought.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Oh that, we'll just call you Ralph.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Somebody take her cigarettes away? Please?
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: Oh god god, we'll just call you Muttley from from now. Bobby, Hi,
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: how are you?
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Ohis wow? I'm doing a lot better than Tiffany's laugh.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you that.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: There you go. I reckon, you should keep that. Yeah,
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: I like it. I like it. I don't know that
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: the listeners are going to like it. But oh, she's
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: muted herself, and the fucking don't we wish she did
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: that more often? That's now half my listeners are gone.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Why don't you mute yourself? You can't.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: I'm like, all right, that's exactly what I was thinking.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: I was like, don't you ever mute yourself? And Greg,
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: well you said it. I speak for the audience now.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: I concur I get sick of my own voice, and
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: I think I think too. I regularly get you know,
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: can you shut the fuck up a bit? I'm like, okay,
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: but then other people seem to like it, so I'll
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: solder on try and self regulate. Bobby, what's news? Give
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: us one bit of news on planet Capuccio before we
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: dive in today's topic that you don't know what.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Is I'm moving to Wayne Country.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: Ah, and you're you're partial to wine, so that that's
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: a nice fit.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I mean if I was pursuing like complete sobriety,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: this would be an interesting move from me. It's kind
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: of like the famous gangster John Dillinger when they said, John,
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: why do you do it? Why do you rib banks?
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: So because that's where the money is, so kind of
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: like the same thing.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh god, there's Martley just firing up again. Hell,
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: it builds like a fan star, you know, when it
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: just starts and then just kind of hits a fucking crescendo.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: Oh dear, all right, I want to talk about the
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: idea today of Tiff talks a lot about doing hard
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: in her presentations, and I think we're obviously we talk
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: about it a bit, but the benefit of doing hard
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: things and the subjective experience of hard versus an objective
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: global reality of hard because one person's hard thing will
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: be someone else's easy thing and so on. But if
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: we look at this conversation through the lens of us
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: the listener, or ask the hosts as what is easy? Well,
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: what is hard? For me that I would like to
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: make part of my routine and hopefully make it easier
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: over time. I guess the very obvious comparison being we
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: go to the gym, Initially it's very hard, and then
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: it becomes less hard than it becomes somewhat comfortable, and
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: then somewhat easy, and then we have to up the
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: weights or the sets or reps, or the intensity or
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: the level of commitment to find some new hard so
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: that we keep growing. Do you think that stepping away
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: from the physiological kind of practice of progressive overload in
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: fitness and strength and flexibility and individual specific sport training,
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: can we apply that principle to our emotional system and
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  Speaker 2: our mind in terms of choosing to do things that
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: are hard in order to change ourselves so that we're
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: more resilient or capable. And now the hard thing has
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: become easy. Is that a reasonable idea?
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  Speaker 1: I mean, we're sitting here talking about it, so it
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: has to be. I mean what I mean that is
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: throughout most of human history, even going back not even
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: a century ago, hard was a necessity for survival. So yeah,
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  Speaker 1: obviously we can do that. I mean, we evolved into
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  Speaker 1: the people we are today. Because our ancestors did very,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: very hard things, and I would imagine most of them
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  Speaker 1: failed at it and we're taken out of the gene pool.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: Others were successful, and you know nature selected for that perhaps,
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: But I really think that hard has a needs to
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: fire its pr manager. We need to reframe our definition
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: around what hard is, because I mean, if you look
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: at the most rewarding things in our lives and the
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: things that exhilarate us and give us challenge, I think
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: it's around things that are hard, It's around things that
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: are difficult but sometimes meaningful, right, So I mean our
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: whole dopaminergic pathway are designed around effort and pursued. So
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you're talking about motivation and the reward
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: associated with that, that requires heart. TIF and I had
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: a podcast years ago. I can't remember the exact episode
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: because that would be insane if I did, but we
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: were talking about doctor Victor Frankel in man Search for Meaning,
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: a book we've discussed on this show, and doctor Victor
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: Frankl had a brilliantly insightful quote where he said that
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: despair is suffering in the absence of meaning. And I've
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: always had the question, what then is suffering in the
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: presence of meaning. So I think like anything that's anything
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: that's worth getting, is worth enduring for I think that's
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: where a lot of rewards come from. And I don't
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: personally believe that we're all that happy when we're not
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: growing and going through the associated growing pains that comes
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: with any situation that puts us in an environment where
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: we can readily do that. Even if you look at
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: self determination theory, you know, a lot of times you
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: talk about intrinsic motivation and the elements that make up
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: intrinsic motivation, but there's also something called integrated motivation, where
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: I might not love what I'm doing at the moment,
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: like for me going to the gym. I mean recently,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: I've experienced this because I have injuries. Now that's really
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: changed my relationship with exercise. But in the past it's
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: not like, oh, I got to motivate myself to go
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: to the gym. There's no place I'd rather be, So
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: I would work out if there was no physical benefit,
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: just for the way it made me feel in the moment.
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: So the payoff is in the process, and that's intrinsic motivation,
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: but in integrated most motivations where I might not really
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: elect to do that if I could do something else,
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: but the meaning that this represents causes me to engage
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  Speaker 1: in it and struggle through the hard anyway. And there's
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: a like think about a parent waking up three, four
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: or five times in the middle of the night because
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: they have a sick kid. Very few parents roll over
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: and ignore the needs of a sick child. It happens
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: so infrequently that there's a special name for them. We
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: usually call them inmates because society frowns upon stuff like that.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: But why do we do that even though it's painful.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: It's the meaning that that child represents. So when we
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  Speaker 1: talk about effort, a lot of times there is this
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  Speaker 1: I feel like self congratulatory undertone where I put in
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: all the effort because I'm that type of person, but
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  Speaker 1: other people I don't believe. I really struggle with that.
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  Speaker 1: I think that when there is enough importance and when
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: there's enough confidence, people do engage in the heart and
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  Speaker 1: it's extremely rewarding. I feel like sometimes people don't do
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: very well in kind of cross examining hard in one
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  Speaker 1: area of their life versus another. Do you know what
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  Speaker 1: I mean?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know, because hard. Hard can be physical, financial, emotional, social, practical, psychological, cognitive, academic. Like,
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  Speaker 2: there's so many different kinds of hard. What do you
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: think determines whether or not you know? There are some
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  Speaker 2: things that I could do that are hard, but they're
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  Speaker 2: stupidly hard and I'm just not that Like, it doesn't
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: matter that much to me. Could I do certain things?
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Like I got asked, do I want to do a
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: postdoctoral study? No? Could I do it? Yep?
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: What?
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  Speaker 2: I may be enjoyed that maybe, but no. You know,
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  Speaker 2: so like what are the variables? That is it just
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  Speaker 2: about how much it matters to us? Because we get
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: the opportunity to choose hard every day, multiple hearts. Maybe,
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  Speaker 2: how do we know when that's worth stepping into or confronting? Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: based on our needs or our wants.
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  Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of complexity and there's two
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  Speaker 1: variables that intersect here. Coach Margaret Moore talks about this
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  Speaker 1: in her new book and Leader on Leadership. Margaret Moore
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  Speaker 1: is probably one of the top executive coaches in the world,
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  Speaker 1: and she talks about the intersection of importance and confidence.
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  Speaker 1: How important is this to me? And I would add
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  Speaker 1: in some cases, enjoyment is a variable. So I might
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  Speaker 1: enjoy something but it's not fundamentally important to me. Like
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: I might really enjoy watching a Netflix show, but it
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: doesn't produce I mean, some shows really produce meaning. But
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  Speaker 1: if I miss something, who cares? So they and then
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  Speaker 1: other things might not be terribly enjoyable, but they're meaningful.
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  Speaker 1: And then there's confidence. So if I feel that no
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  Speaker 1: matter how hard I try, I'm never gonna quite get this,
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  Speaker 1: and I have that level of low efficacy, I think
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  Speaker 1: that frames how hard something is. Like for me, simple
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  Speaker 1: things are extremely difficult because of the way I was raised.
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  Speaker 1: And I don't want to I don't want to hash
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  Speaker 1: this out too much on the show. We've done it
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  Speaker 1: like a lot before. But I learned how to tie
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: my shoes in a brutal environment. So my stepfather, who
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: I barely knew at the times, like, all right, I'm
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: gonna teach you how to tie your shoes, and he
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: would show me a step and I would do the
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: stet and all right, now do this, and if I
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: got it wrong, he would just haul off and hit
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: me hard, like very hard. And then if I did
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: that too many times in a row, because Weirdly enough,
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: when you're terrified and being beaten, it doesn't increase cognitive
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: function when you're trying to execute a series of steps.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: So then it wasn't like getting hit hard for missing
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: a step. It was a full on beating and getting
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: thrown around the room. And then after five minutes, let's
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: try this again. So I could put together a piece
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: of Ikea furniture and have a meltdown missing a couple
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: of steps because that's my conditioning. Well, then putting together
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: I keya furniture for me would rank as extremely hard,
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: right because it is very very important. Maybe, but it's
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: furniture low sense of self efficacy and that conditioning where
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: my wife might look at it as I'm gonna pull
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: myself a glass of wine and this is a puzzle.
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: If I miss step, I'm just gonna go back and
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: retrace it. So that level of enjoyment and that sense
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: of self efficacy that if I just take my time
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: with this, I know I can get it, it decreases
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  Speaker 1: her perception of hard. So there's the intersection of confidence
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: and importance, and you can kind of tell where somebody
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: is within their stages of change in the trans theoretical
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: model by where those two points intersect, and I also
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: think it's an eight interests. Victor Frankel also talked about this,
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: where a clue around what you value and what you're
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: meant to do, what you're engineered for, can be found
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: in what is it that's pretty hard for other people
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: to learn? And it's also really hard for them to do,
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: but for you, it is much easier for you to learn,
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: and it's a lot easier for you to do now
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: if you add meaning and enjoyment to that, I think
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: that that's a clue as to what you're uniquely suited for.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: And when you're engaging in something that's hard but you're
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: uniquely suited for it, it becomes invigorating, engaging, and rewarding.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: When you lack those elements, it becomes redundant. It could
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: become quite torturous. That's what yeah.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: And I think the ever present reality too is that
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: most of us, because our brain is kind of wired
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: for safety and security and predictability and comfort and instant gratification,
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: is that it's way easier to go yep, I'm going
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: to do that now because that's no risk, there's no
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: adversity in this, this is not uncomfortable, this is not hard.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: I'm going to do this easy thing because I'm going
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: to get this immediate payoff, and I'll do the hard
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: thing tomorrow. And then that becomes a five year internal
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: conversation that never ends. And I think that that's stepping
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: off and being fully committed, I guess. But then even
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: with that, I think, like I know lots of people,
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: even clients that I work with over the years where
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: they would stop and start the same process or a
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: version of the same process ten times, and depending on
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: the attitude or the talk that went into that. Initially,
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't say it, but I would feel they're not
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: going to do it, just because there was something about
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: the energy or the level of commitment or lack of commitment.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: And then invariably not all the time, but a lot
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: of times, it's like something happened, they had an event
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: and experience and awakening, a light bulb, something would and
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: then they're like, oh, I'm doing it. I'm like, oh,
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: they're going to do it. They're actually doing it this time,
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: like something has changed where now this is not something
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: they want to do, this is something they are going
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: to do. And I like is a different energy, there's
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: a different attitude. It's like I don't have more resources
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: or different biology or physiology or potential. It's all the same,
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: but something in their thinking, attitude, whatever has shifted, and
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: it's like invariably they go and do it.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's that element of readiness, I think, and it's
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: not around use these words because it produces this action.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: It's observe your conversation and your dialogue. So if you
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: take a look at motivational interviewing Ronald Nick and Miller,
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: there are different levels of readiness that are represented within
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: linguistic patterns. It's really interesting. And the acronym darn cat
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: represents them well. And darn staves for desire, ability, reasons,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: and need. So when you're talking to someone or you're
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: in a conversation and you're the one who's expressing something,
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: you might talk about out something you want to do
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: in terms of desire. I really want to do this
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: or I feel like I'm able to do this because
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: or you know, here's why, here's the reasons why I
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: think I should do this, and then maybe it's like
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: need where oh, well, here's what happens if I don't
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: do this? So that that's representing need in that linguistic pattern,
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: and a lot of people think, well, that's readiness, right. Oh,
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: when people start talking about I've heard motivational speakers talk
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: about shifting your language from I should to I want to,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: there's nothing magic there. It's not shifting your language. It's
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: observe your language because all of those the desire, the ability,
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: the reasons, and the need reflect readiness getting ready to
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: get ready. It doesn't mean that you're going to do
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: something that's represented in the cat acronym where C is comment,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: and that's when the language changes. When you start shifting
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: from I want to to I will, that's a much
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: deeper level of commitment. And the A is activation. That's
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: when people say like I'm ready, Like you're talking about like, yeah,
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: I will, you know I want to do this. It's like, no,
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: I'm ready to do this. And then the greatest predictor
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: that someone will take action or you'll take action is
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: the t where you speak about yourself in the frame
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: of an identity of someone who's already engaged in it,
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: which is kind of like when someone's trying to make
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: a dietary change. There's a couple of approaches right where
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: someone can say, well, I'm not going to eat pizza anymore,
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: pizza is bad. Well, first of all, I don't know
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: if an extreme relationship with food like that is sustainable
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: or it's healthy and food is not bad. You know,
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: I never saw a pizza commit a crime, and I
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: never saw it even be rude to someone on the
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: checkout queue. But it's a lot easier to talk about
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: what you're going to do rather than what you're not
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: going to do. So you could look at it as okay,
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: you know, for a week, I'm going to eat the
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: same foods that I've typically eaten, but I'm going to
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: add a lot more whole foods to it. I'm going
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: to add a lot more plans to it. I'm going
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: to bring in a lot more nutrients that support a
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: healthy microbiome and do something like that. Because even though
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: that's a very small step, what starts to happen after
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: a week or two, Well, if your diet's really bad,
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: you'll probably start to feel a lot better and you'll
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: be better at emotional regulation, because a lot of emotional
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: regulation depends on our diet. Right, So if you have
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: a healthier if you have a healthier microbiome, You're going
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: to produce more serotonin. Serotonin helps with emotional regulation, it
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: helps with a feeling of satisfaction. So all of these
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: things start happening in your favor, and so you're more
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: a to engage in greater dietary changes. But what's really
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: important is you start to see yourself as someone who's
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: already doing it. I am already doing this. It's not
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: like someday or next week or my New Year's resolution
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: is or Monday. It's like, no, I'm doing it now.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: And that is very critical to pay attention to those things,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: because the question becomes what brings your desire to an action?
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Like I really want to do this? Well, what is
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: if I really want to do this, how can I test?
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: What would be one thing that I could do today
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: that would enable me to act on that desire or
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: what would need to happen or what would I need
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: to believe to bridge that gap between an intention and
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: a measurable behavior? If that makes sense.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: H I love that I was thinking about. Are there
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: any circumstances where all that kind of thinking and attitude
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: and readiness and self talk and blah blah blah that
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: becomes redundant. And I think there is one situation where
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: it's not about transformation change, doing the hard thing. Is
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: not about how mentally or emotionally ready you are, but
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: what happens. And so I was thinking about my friend
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: and I think, oh, also Tip's friend Joel Sardi, who
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: spends life in a wheelchair, who was a soldier, went
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: on I think multiple deployments, came back and had an
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: accident while he was on leave and broke his back
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: and became a quadriplegic. And it's like, all of a sudden, hey, Joel,
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: you're going to do life in a wheelchair. By the way,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: you can't do this, this, this, this, this, this and this,
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: and you can't reject this like this is you now.
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: So whether or not you feel ready to be a quadriplegic,
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: it doesn't fucking matter. You are. And so people get
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: in situations where life fucks them over and now they
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: just have to be a different version of themselves. Like
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: readiness doesn't come into it. I'm sure in a way
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: it does, But you know what I'm saying, where and
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: I look at him. He's such a great dad, he's
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: such a great husband, he's such a great speaker. He's
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: a fucking amazing human. He's all about solutions, not problems.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: He's like, who knows, who knows? How you know able
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: bodied Joel versus current Joel would be in terms of
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: performance and outcomes and happiness. Maybe, Like it's a weird
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: thing to say that maybe his current version is happier
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: or more productive or whatever than the other version might
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: have been. We don't know, but it's like, and then
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: that brings me back to this, Oh, we can change
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: in a fucking instant if we don't have a choice,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Like we can adapt today. We can behave differently today
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: when we don't have the choice of behaving how we
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: did yesterday because something fucking monumental has shifted. And now
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: I'm this is my reality now. Wasn't my reality yesterday,
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: but now it is, so I have And I'm sure
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: people go through massive peaks and troughs dealing with stuff
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: like that. But it's that we spoke. I don't know
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: if Tiff and I or I spoke at least a
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: couple of times recently about this idea. In psychology, they
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: call a performance capacity gap. You know, so performance what
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: you're currently doing and capacity what you're capable of doing,
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: you know, like what you what is your absolute capacity?
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: Like what could you if you're if you a jol
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: could you survive? Could you thrive? Could you adapt? Could
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: you improve? Learn, grow, evolve? Could you be a better
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: version of you in a chair than out of all that?
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: All those kind of amazing questions. It's like, imagine if
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: we didn't have to wait to get into the right state,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: but we just went I'm doing it because I don't
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: have a choice. But nobody wants to get put in
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: that situation.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: No, but there are choices though, like most of the
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: time it's not that dire. But you bring up something
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: that's very important in terms of behavior change. And my
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: disclaimer is pain and situations and difficulty. It's all relative, right,
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: Like if your capacity is not where someone else's capacity is,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: that that doesn't mean that you're broken. That's okay. I
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: mean we all talk to Charlie Plumb, right, and you
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: know it's like, well, if I haven't spent several years
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: as a prisoner of war the Hanoi Hilton, Well, what
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: right do I have to complain that, you know, my
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: partner broke up with me?
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Well?
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: No, is it the same thing. No, but is it devastating? Yes,
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: and you should sit with that. So I'm not saying
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: do the comparison, but when we have people like a
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: Joe or a Charlie and say, wow, that's an extraordinary circumstance.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: What are the attributes that this person is displaying that
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: I admire? I mean, Albert ben dur and social cognitive
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: theory talked about that in terms of vicarious experience. Where Okay,
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: if I were to emulate in a very small way
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: one of those attributes that Joe demonstrates with courage and
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: with joel il, I'm sorry, So what would what would
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: be one small way that I can demonstrate that? Yeah,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: and go out and test that. So I think looking
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: at people who you know, we might not have gone
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: through what they went through, right, we might not be
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: where they are in their journey, But being able to
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: utilize them as an example of vicarious experience and model
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: some of their behaviors I think is one a great
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: framework too. It's kind of psychological distancing, you know, it's like, okay, yeah,
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: well this isn't me and I've done that. Okay, well,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: let's take a look at this person here. If you
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: were to do this? What made you adapt as a behavior?
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: I know this is an unanswerable question to feel free
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: to have an opinion as well, But Bobby, to what
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: extent do you think like we need to Like let's
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: say you said to me, Harps, I want to set
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: up a personal training center. Can I do an hour
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: consult with you and you walk me through peaks and
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: troughs and challenges and bullshit you dealt with. And in fact,
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: let's do five sessions. So we do five hours of
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: me coaching you on you know, how to maybe do
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: or not do certain things and build this business that
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: I built multiple times? Right, and you go, well'll be
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: good to talk to. Great because it was not bad
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: at that. How much can we learn through that? And
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: I guess it varies, but versus just starting with a
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: blank sheet and just trial and error and you doing
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: it yourself experiences through someone else or your own experience
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: or both.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: Well, if you're I think both matters. And here's why
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: I'm saying that, because if you're going to do something
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: you've never done before, but somebody else has been very successful,
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: and I think the key point here it's not like, Okay,
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: I started this business and this is what I've started
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: multiple businesses, and here's a history of successes. I want
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: to learn from that person, Like I want to talk
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: to that person because they obviously understand a lot about
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: what they're doing and what I need to do or
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: the mistakes that I'm very likely to make that I
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: need to look out for. But there's also how I
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: approach things in the world. So in one sense, what
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: works for another person, especially if it's procedural, could probably
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: work for me. But in terms of what inspires people,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: what motivates people, you know, how they approach doing anything.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of space for uniqueness there.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: And I'm still going to have to go out and
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: do trial and error to want to learn from myself
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: to test what works for me. I'm a big fan
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: of going out and just wandering about a little bit
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: in life. Not you don't have direction, but it's almost
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: like if you're on a ship and you've got a compass,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: instead of sailing in a straight line, kind of like
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: letting the current of the waves take it in and
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: out a little bit, because I think you'll find that
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: you'll find out a lot about yourself by putting yourself
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: in different situations, different contacts. I think a lot of
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: that is critical for self discovery. So my answer would
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: be both.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: You've done. If you've done both, you've had a fair
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: bit of coaching, but you've also set up two gyms,
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: and you've managed people and led people and had to
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: go through the fucking all the mayhem of money and
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: books and partnerships and development and brand And what are
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: your thoughts on that?
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was thinking, and I find it difficult to
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: answer that question because I think there are a lot
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: of variables in what comes into it being who you are,
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: how you think and learn and function, and how you
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: execute ideas. One of the biggest things I remember banging
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: on about after starting the podcast was the lesson for
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: me that naivety was a gift. If I was not
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: so naive about how podcasts worked, how sponsorship worked, how
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: getting guests worked, I wouldn't have taken action on any
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: of them. I had sponsors within eight weeks. But I've
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: made it up, and I made and I created a
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: way to offer value and out there in the world
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: of people doing the same thing as me. I would
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: join groups and I would read people asking how to
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: and other people saying don't bother. You can't rah rah.
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: So I think, yeah, it depends who you're looking at,
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: how you think, and how somebody else's coaching or lessons.
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: And this is why I took so long to dive
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: into a speaking course. How is that going to affect
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: what you're naturally talented at and what you're already doing
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: well based on someone else's opinion?
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: Were you doing right now until recently? Both? Right, you're
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: in a course being coached on speaking, but you're also
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: separate to that out there speaking like you're doing the job.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: You're already doing it. You're already on a stage in
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: front of humans, sharing thoughts, insights, messages, building rapport, connection
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: and staining all the shit that you do. And over
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: here you're being trained. So you can do a direct comparison.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: Do you get more value from just doing it? And
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: I know this is not global, this is just you,
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: but do you get more valuable, more value and more
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: I don't know, benefit from the courses and all the
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: talking you and I have talked a lot, or from
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: just being on the stage and doing it.
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: I want to say yes, more from doing it, But
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: I also have an awareness that that's my bias opinion,
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: and that's my experience, Like, what don't I see? So
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: I think maybe it's both, but I do think I
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: do think it's really important to just get out there
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: and get hands dirty.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Bobby, we're going to wind up. I was just
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: going to say, so, somebody's got to they're listening to
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: this and they're hard. Could be something completely unrelated to
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: what we've spoken about today, a completely different challenge. And
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: again there's no global answer, individual answer to this very
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: broad question. But how do we know where to start? Like,
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: is there any advice for somebody just going?
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: Fuck? I?
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: It all makes sense, but I'm so overwhelmed. It's so
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: big this thing that I do not know where to start.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: We'll want to start small and over the past year
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: looking at values that people have. One value that I've observed,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: and if it's not innatly for you, then it won't work.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: But one value I've observed in people that's a superpower's curiosity.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: What am I curious about? It's overwhelming. Yeah, there's probably
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: one hundred steps to it. What is one thing that
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: I'm curious about experimenting with this week and just seeing
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: what happens? Because I think curiosity in a lot of
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: ways is an antitude to overwhelm unless sure, well then yeah,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: it's very risky. Don't want to use up any of
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: those nine lives from that. But yeah, because it's like
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: I think when you when you take things and break
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: it down in terms of experiments, they're fun and the
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: whole idea of an experiment is not like, Okay, did
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: I accomplish this thing? Did I fail? Did I succeed?
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: What did I learn? What do I learn from this?
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: And how does that learning inform my next step? So
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: curiosity takes things from the oh, this is huge, and
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: am I going to succeed at this? Can I do this?
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: Am I going to fail? That doesn't make a difference,
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter what am I going to learn? Because if
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: it's what am I curious about? What's one small step
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: I could take? And what what have I learned from it?
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: There's no waste of time?
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, And what will I do next time?
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: And what won't I do next time? You know, it's
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: like just taking practical shit away. Thank you both. Tiffany
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: and Cooque has a podcast. She might be interested. It's
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: called Roll the Punches. She's done a thousand episodes as
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: she keeps on fuck and banging on. I've done a
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: thousand episodes. All right, good, well done. Ah, No, she's amazing.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: It's amazing. Bobby hasn't done a thousand episodes, but he's
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: probably done ten thousand on other people's shows. The self
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: help Antidote is his amazing podcast, Robert Capuccio dot on
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: the interwebs, and you can find him on LinkedIn and
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: all dodgy bookstores, and Muttley you can find in a
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: bar leaning over a flagon of something wrapped in brown
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: paper with a fucking dodgy, old, stinky, old flannel on,
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: just looking shifty as fuck in the corner. Did I
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: miss anything?
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: You just listed all of my life's aspirations.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: Oh fucking Muttley's going to finish the show, so
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: Bye,