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95. More Than Constellations: Love, Reconciliation and Inner Wisdom with Ursula Maria Bell · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Tracy: Kia ora, and welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:03
  Tracy: I'm your host, Tracey Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators from, and clients from around the world, looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:23
  Tracy: We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:25
  Tracy: I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:33
  Tracy: Kia ora, everyone.
• 0:34
  Tracy: Welcome to Constellations and All That.
• 0:37
  Tracy: Today, I have the pleasure of chatting with Ursula Maria Bell.
• 0:41
  Tracy: Welcome, Ursula.
• 0:43
  Ursula: Thank you very much, and thank you for having me.
• 0:46
  Tracy: Aw, you're welcome.
• 0:47
  Tracy: This is exciting.
• 0:48
  Tracy: Yeah, a, an admirer of, of from a distance for a very long time, so, um, I'm excited to have you on board on, on this conversation.
• 0:57
  Tracy: Would you like to introduce a little bit about yourself for the listeners and the viewers, please?
• 1:02
  Ursula: Sure.
• 1:03
  Ursula: Uh, so my name is Ursula Maria Bell.
• 1:05
  Ursula: Actually, I have three first names, Ursula Maria Elizabeth, but it was a bit, it's a bit too long.
• 1:11
  Ursula: And Maria is the name of my, of the first wife of my grandfather, and also of the first wife of my great-grandfather who died.
• 1:26
  Ursula: So, uh, when I realized that, I kind of as honoring them- Mm … I included the second name also in my official name.
• 1:37
  Ursula: Um, yeah, what, what can I say?
• 1:39
  Ursula: I'm from Germany, born in Germany, raised in Germany.
• 1:42
  Ursula: Uh, left Germany in 2004 with my husband.
• 1:45
  Ursula: We have lived in different countries since then.
• 1:49
  Ursula: Every country gave me something amazing.
• 1:51
  Ursula: And- Mm … uh, we have a… I'm 66 years old.
• 1:54
  Ursula: We have a daughter of 25.
• 1:57
  Ursula: I'm married since 27 years, so, um, yeah, I would say a very lively life with all kinds of ups and downs.
• 2:07
  Ursula: I came to constellations through- My own experience, uh, painful experience with my mother and my sister.
• 2:17
  Ursula: Mm. And a friend of mine, she knew about constellations and she said,"Well, you know, you're angry and you're hurt, and it might be good to look at this because if not, your daughter might carry it along and, and there is a workshop you can join." And I got in touch with that person.
• 2:35
  Ursula: And, uh, before that I was trained in Viktor Frankl's logotherapy and existential ana- analysis.
• 2:41
  Ursula: I al- always struggle.
• 2:42
  Tracy: Analysis.
• 2:44
  Ursula: Analysis, yes.
• 2:45
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 2:45
  Ursula: And it was something that is, or it's still something that is very close to my heart, and still I was looking for something that would combine also the, the heart and the soul and the body, and so the whole being.
• 2:59
  Tracy: Mm.
• 2:59
  Ursula: And when I did my first constellation in that workshop, I said, "This is it. This is what I had been looking for."
• 3:05
  Tracy: Mm.
• 3:05
  Ursula: And I asked the facilitator,"Where can I learn this?
• 3:09
  Ursula: I want to learn this." And he said,"I have just started a training and you can still join." Well, this was- Wow … in 2010 or '11, I think.
• 3:17
  Ursula: And since then I'm-
• 3:19
  Tracy: Yeah
• 3:19
  Ursula: I'm on the constellation path.
• 3:21
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 3:22
  Tracy: Wow.
• 3:22
  Tracy: Who was the trainer that you worked with?
• 3:25
  Ursula: Uh, Conrad Pinecker.
• 3:27
  Ursula: Nobody knows him, or few people know him.
• 3:30
  Ursula: So I never trained with one of the big names.
• 3:33
  Ursula: I'm always … I just go with where universe takes me- Yeah … and what my heart feels.
• 3:41
  Ursula: And I can say he was the perfect trainer and we It was not only about constellations, but- He integrated other approaches.
• 3:52
  Ursula: Mm. So for me, this opened up I think already the path which I'm now going, and, uh, it's also the title of my book.
• 4:04
  Ursula: So the subtitle, More Than Constellations.
• 4:07
  Ursula: Mm. And I more and more realize that, yes, constellations are a wonderful technique, but it's, it's about the inner posture that we work with.
• 4:17
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 4:17
  Tracy: That's right.
• 4:18
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 4:19
  Tracy: And I love that, um, you know, I mean, like you said, you didn't train with one of the, the big names, but when you go through the lineage, there'll be… I mean, it all comes from the, the source, doesn't it?
• 4:30
  Ursula: Absolutely.
• 4:31
  Ursula: Absolutely.
• 4:32
  Tracy: You know, the- Yes, yes … the thread that flows down, exactly.
• 4:35
  Ursula: And- Absolutely.
• 4:35
  Ursula: But you know, I think that we forget that there are so many amazing trainers out there-
• 4:42
  Tracy: Yeah… Ursula: that we don't hear about, feel sad about, that everything foc- or everybody focuses on this and this and this, um, or that person and that person and that person, and we forget about the thousands others that- Yeah
• 5:02
  Ursula: might not be known, but they are just amazing.
• 5:06
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 5:07
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 5:07
  Tracy: I agree.
• 5:08
  Tracy: I agree.
• 5:09
  Tracy: That's why I'm loving doing this podcast, you know, helping to spotlight all sorts of people as well.
• 5:15
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 5:15
  Tracy: You know?
• 5:15
  Tracy: That's
• 5:15
  Ursula: beautiful.
• 5:16
  Ursula: That's beautiful.
• 5:16
  Tracy: Um, yeah.
• 5:17
  Tracy: Let's talk about your book,'cause you've got your cover there in the background, and- Yeah um, in the spirit of
• 5:23
  Ursula: love-
• 5:24
  Tracy: So this is- Yeah?
• 5:25
  Ursula: Wait a moment.
• 5:26
  Ursula: I don't know if you see
• 5:27
  Tracy: it.
• 5:27
  Tracy: Yeah, that's In the Spirit of Love and Reconciliation.
• 5:30
  Ursula: And Reconciliation, and the subtitle is, no, you, you can't see it with the background, More Than Constellations.
• 5:36
  Ursula: It was published in December 2024, and I had planned to write it years before.
• 5:43
  Ursula: And I always started a little bit, a little bit, but it never happened.
• 5:48
  Ursula: And then eventually in, um, 2023, uh, in, in autumn, I got a sciatica so painful that I couldn't move anymore, and it took me months- And went to doctors and they said, "Operation," and all these things, and I said, "No, no way." And in the end I asked my training group, "Would you be willing to have a look at this with me?" So we did a constellation about the situation and we had, uh, we had, uh, representatives for my sciatica nerve, for the pain, for myself, for the two vertebrae where the herniated disc was.
• 6:28
  Ursula: And it was a blind constellation, so nobody knew about who they represented.
• 6:33
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 6:33
  Ursula: And in the end it came out, share your legacy.
• 6:37
  Ursula: And some, another, I don't know which representative it was, and said, "A book, a book. I s- I see a book. You have to write a book." And nobody knew that I had this in mind, so it was so funny.
• 6:48
  Ursula: And I said, "Yeah, actually, there is a book waiting." Yeah.
• 6:51
  Ursula: And I promised myself and I promised my body I would write that book.
• 6:55
  Ursula: What can I say?
• 6:56
  Ursula: Two days after, my pain was gone.
• 6:59
  Ursula: It never came back.
• 7:01
  Tracy: Wow.
• 7:02
  Ursula: And, uh, and-
• 7:03
  Tracy: Bodies are incredible speakers, aren't they?
• 7:06
  Tracy: They're incredible when we, when we're listening to them.
• 7:09
  Ursula: It's, it's, you know, if, if I didn't experience it myself Mm-hmm … I would say you're crazy.
• 7:15
  Ursula: And, and then I, I started.
• 7:17
  Ursula: So this was in March 2024, and then I, I really started in April and then the whole summer, and I published it in December 2024.
• 7:27
  Ursula: Yes.
• 7:28
  Ursula: And it's basically, it shares my own journey from, you know, a simple participant to the facilitator and eventually the trainer.
• 7:40
  Ursula: I included this to encourage others-
• 7:44
  Tracy: Mm… Ursula: to understand that first of all So I started when I was 50.
• 7:50
  Tracy: To encourage people to follow their dreams and follow their, their, their, where universe wants them to be.
• 7:58
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 7:59
  Ursula: And on the other hand, I included a lot of, of course, about constellations, about the orders of love and helping, but also my way of seeing them.
• 8:10
  Ursula: I wrote a lot about reconciliation, because for me this is where they are guiding us to about love.
• 8:18
  Ursula: What does love mean?
• 8:20
  Ursula: What does love mean for me?
• 8:21
  Ursula: How do I see it?
• 8:23
  Ursula: Uh, expectation.
• 8:24
  Ursula: So, um, pain.
• 8:27
  Ursula: Uh-huh.
• 8:27
  Ursula: So there are, uh, different- Is
• 8:29
  Tracy: there a snippet of that that you could share with us that maybe- I wasn't prepared for that … open a book and see what, what pops out?
• 8:36
  Ursula: Okay.
• 8:37
  Ursula: So let's maybe… Because what we usually do is we reject our past, we reject our parents, we reject others.
• 8:46
  Ursula: There are so many people who talk about cutting ties and, you know, uh, for me, it is very important to use the use of words.
• 8:58
  Ursula: If it, for example, if you talk about to cut, this is very aggressive, and aggressive words cannot heal.
• 9:07
  Ursula: So for me, it is from, uh, from rejection to acknowledgement.
• 9:14
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 9:14
  Ursula: And the, the biggest rejection, I think, is about rejecting ourselves.
• 9:19
  Ursula: So people come and they say, "Oh, I, I've, I've worked so hard on myself." I want to read just that part, if that's okay for
• 9:28
  Tracy: you.
• 9:29
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 9:29
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 9:29
  Tracy: Sounds good.
• 9:30
  Ursula: So the decision to shift from rejection and judgment to acceptance and acknowledgement is not passive resignation.
• 9:40
  Ursula: It does not mean giving up.
• 9:42
  Ursula: It is the most active and conscious decision we can make The first step to love and reconciliation, especially in regards to ourselves.
• 9:54
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 9:54
  Ursula: Many clients tell me, "I have worked so hard on myself for so long, and I'm still not there." My answer usually is, "Stop working so hard on yourself." Working hard on ourselves means that we are not right, we are not good enough, not how we should be.
• 10:11
  Ursula: Let me ask you a question.
• 10:13
  Ursula: What happens to a child who is constantly receiving the message, "You are not right.
• 10:20
  Ursula: You are not enough.
• 10:22
  Ursula: You are not how you should be"?
• 10:24
  Ursula: Sounds familiar?
• 10:25
  Ursula: Does it bring back memories from childhood or school days?
• 10:29
  Ursula: Well, that's how many of us treat ourselves day by day.
• 10:35
  Ursula: Instead of finding peace with who we are and embracing the wonderful being of our true nature, instead of seeing what is good and beautiful in us, we judge and punish ourselves for each and everything that is not what we or others consider perfect.
• 10:53
  Tracy: Wow, that's lovely.
• 10:55
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 10:55
  Ursula: So
• 10:56
  Tracy: this is- And it's so-
• 10:56
  Ursula: Yeah, this is the, the, the basic tenor of the book.
• 11:01
  Ursula: And many people who have read it say they love it because they just open it and… So it's not a book that you need to read from the beginning to the end.
• 11:11
  Tracy: Mm.
• 11:11
  Ursula: Or you go through the, the table of contents, and you pick a topic, or you just open it and read it.
• 11:18
  Ursula: Mm. And, uh, and this is what I wanted.
• 11:21
  Ursula: Simple language, nothing that you need to write… to read three times to understand it.
• 11:27
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 11:27
  Ursula: But just as I speak to people, yeah.
• 11:30
  Tracy: That's fas- fantastic.
• 11:32
  Tracy: It, um… And an amazing resource for people as well to be able to, you know- Even maybe even ask a question or looking for support or-
• 11:43
  Ursula: Yes, yes yeah.
• 11:44
  Ursula: Some people have it on their, you know, bed, bed table.
• 11:48
  Ursula: So they trust, yes.
• 11:51
  Tracy: And- Well, I was sharing with, um, someone earlier today actually that, you know, 'cause when someone writes a book, all of their consciousness is in the field already, right?
• 11:59
  Tracy: 'Cause you've, you've had those thoughts.
• 12:01
  Tracy: You've put it there, and so it's already in the, out there.
• 12:04
  Tracy: So I often sleep with lots of books.
• 12:07
  Tracy: Some I've read and some I haven't.
• 12:09
  Tracy: And my, sleep be- with them beside me, not in the bed with me.
• 12:14
  Tracy: And my intention is to, to receive the knowledge that I need.
• 12:19
  Ursula: Yes.
• 12:19
  Tracy: Uh, you know?
• 12:21
  Tracy: Like, particularly if I'm, if I'm doing a big workshop or if I've got other things.
• 12:25
  Tracy: And I, and I swap them out.
• 12:27
  Tracy: I don't have the same things.
• 12:28
  Tracy: I tune into the, into my little library and what books do I need for those who are coming toward, you know, near me right now.
• 12:37
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 12:37
  Tracy: And it might only be that I've got one or two on the books- on the nightstand, or sometimes I've got, like, a big stack.
• 12:43
  Tracy: Yeah, so.
• 12:44
  Tracy: I
• 12:45
  Ursula: had an, an interesting experience with books years ago.
• 12:48
  Ursula: I think it was bef- no, after I did the training with Constellations.
• 12:53
  Ursula: Um, I sold nearly all my books.
• 12:57
  Ursula: I kept, I think, five because I said, "I have put so many things in my head. Now I want to create a situation where I want to see what is inside of me." Mm-hmm.
• 13:10
  Ursula: What happens if I stop putting information?
• 13:13
  Ursula: So I stopped workshops.
• 13:15
  Ursula: I stopped reading.
• 13:17
  Ursula: I just allowed things to come.
• 13:20
  Ursula: Mm. And it was one of the most beautiful times in my life.
• 13:25
  Ursula: To realize the, the, the richness that we have inside.
• 13:30
  Ursula: I'm not only speaking about myself, because I know we all have it.
• 13:34
  Ursula: But we are so focused on and trained on you need to learn, you need to put it in, you, you know, you need to be better, better, better, that we very often miss that time and space where we realize what, what is the wisdom that is inside of us.
• 13:54
  Tracy: Mm. Yeah.
• 13:55
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 13:55
  Tracy: And, and have that time to pause and- Yes … and to listen.
• 13:58
  Ursula: Yes.
• 13:59
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 14:00
  Tracy: Beautiful.
• 14:01
  Tracy: Beautiful.
• 14:02
  Tracy: And you shared just, um, before that you were doing the, the Viktor Frankl-
• 14:07
  Ursula: Yes, yes … Frankl thing.
• 14:08
  Ursula: So Viktor Frankl, the, um, logotherapy was my first training, and for me it … The interesting thing is that when I started then with constellations I thought I had put aside logotherapy, but then I realized more and more, especially then when I started, uh, to offer my, my training, how much of Frankl I included in my teaching.
• 14:36
  Ursula: Um, you know, the, the, the, the inner poster, uh, that I, that I try to convey to my participants is, is based on Viktor Frankl's respect for the human being.
• 14:51
  Tracy: Mm.
• 14:51
  Ursula: And taking on responsibility for the choices for their lives.
• 14:57
  Ursula: Um, it's like, you know, you can go on for your whole life blaming your parents for what has been, or you can let it, acknowledge it and say, "Okay, now I'm grown up.
• 15:09
  Ursula: Now I can take responsibility for my, for my life.
• 15:12
  Ursula: What do I do with it?
• 15:13
  Ursula: I am the one who can decide who I'm going to be in the next moment of my life." Yeah.
• 15:18
  Ursula: So this is Viktor Frankl.
• 15:20
  Ursula: But on the other-
• 15:21
  Tracy: I, I hadn't heard of logotherapy before, so it's, it's fascinating.
• 15:25
  Tracy: Oh, yeah.
• 15:25
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 15:26
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 15:26
  Ursula: So Viktor Frankl is, uh, is the third y- logotherapy is the third Viennese school of psychotherapy after Freud and Adler.
• 15:35
  Ursula: Mm-hmm.
• 15:35
  Ursula: Freud is the one who said the human being is a being in search of lust.
• 15:40
  Ursula: Adler said it's a being in search of power, and Viktor Frankl said, no, the human being is a being in search of meaning, and this is amazing.
• 15:49
  Ursula: So when we, when we, when we live … Because for me it is, I can only teach what I live.
• 15:56
  Ursula: I cannot teach something and live something different.
• 15:58
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 15:59
  Ursula: So when, when we live on this basis, it's all about meaning, finding what… how, how does my life get meaning?
• 16:07
  Ursula: How do my, my … What meaning do my, my, my daily actions and reactions have?
• 16:14
  Ursula: What do they bring in this world?
• 16:16
  Ursula: But the more I worked with constellations, then I realized, but also here something is missing.
• 16:24
  Ursula: Because if I'm still entangled with an ancestor, if I'm still loyal to someone in my family, the meaning I might think- I bring in my li- in my life, in my present life might still not be mine.
• 16:41
  Tracy: Mm. That's right.
• 16:42
  Ursula: Right?
• 16:43
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 16:43
  Ursula: Yes.
• 16:44
  Ursula: And on the other hand, if I work with constellations and I let go of the loyalties and entanglements, what is the next step?
• 16:53
  Ursula: Mm. The next step then for me is, okay, now I take responsibility and I bring something good in my life.
• 17:00
  Ursula: So it is neither the one nor the other, but it is bringing them all together.
• 17:07
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 17:08
  Tracy: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:09
  Tracy: And that's what I love about constellations is the, mm, the fluidity of being able to infuse other modalities with it, right?
• 17:19
  Tracy: And there are so many, um, without actually losing the constellation, the, or the essence of it, but being able to bring in other things to support it.
• 17:30
  Ursula: Yes.
• 17:31
  Ursula: Mm. And the essence of constellations for me are the orders of love and the orders of helping.
• 17:36
  Ursula: And sometimes, you know, if we really integrate them in our life, we don't need the, the, the constellation, the tool anymore.
• 17:46
  Ursula: Mm. Because if I integrate the orders of love in my life, I will kind of do constellations every time I interact with someone, acknowledging, honoring.
• 17:59
  Ursula: So, uh, these for me are the, the… It, it's the basis.
• 18:04
  Ursula: And some people say, I, I… Lately I read the orders of love are patriarchal, and I think you didn't get it.
• 18:13
  Ursula: Because this is not about men and women, about who is right, who is wrong.
• 18:19
  Ursula: It is much more.
• 18:20
  Ursula: It goes much deeper.
• 18:22
  Ursula: It is about finding our place.
• 18:26
  Ursula: Uh, and it has nothing to do with being more important or not.
• 18:31
  Ursula: Mm. And so for me, there, there… the danger is a lot of misunderstandings in this field.
• 18:40
  Tracy: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:41
  Tracy: Yeah, that is, is-
• 18:42
  Ursula: Or what I have to do.
• 18:44
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 18:45
  Tracy: Yeah, it's important that it's communicated in, in, in its true essence for the understanding, right?
• 18:51
  Ursula: Yes.
• 18:52
  Ursula: Mm. And here we are with love and reconciliation.
• 18:54
  Ursula: Here we are with the inner posture.
• 18:57
  Ursula: I have been to, as a representative, to workshops where I was forced to bow.
• 19:01
  Ursula: And I never force anyone to bow, because bowing for me is one of the most sacred movements that we can do, but it, it, it needs time and place to come.
• 19:16
  Ursula: And if it comes, it comes.
• 19:17
  Ursula: If it doesn't come, it doesn't come at that moment.
• 19:19
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 19:20
  Ursula: So who am I as a facilitator to force that?
• 19:23
  Ursula: And I remember one constellation where I, I, I, I was the issue holder.
• 19:28
  Ursula: And then there was this final where I really wanted to bow to that ancestor.
• 19:33
  Ursula: I had this inner, yes, I want to bow, but I wanted to take my time to really feel it.
• 19:39
  Ursula: And the facilitator came from behind, pushed me, "Bow."
• 19:42
  Tracy: Oh, wow.
• 19:42
  Ursula: And I said, "What is that?" And it was someone with a big name.
• 19:46
  Ursula: I don't want… You know?
• 19:47
  Ursula: So it, it is just, as you said, what is the essence?
• 19:51
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 19:51
  Ursula: What is the essence and the true spirit, and how do we bring our work into that world?
• 19:59
  Ursula: And this is not to judge, it's just to share my own experience.
• 20:02
  Ursula: Everybody can do it as they want.
• 20:04
  Ursula: People choose- Yeah, mm-hmm … with whom they work.
• 20:06
  Ursula: That's perfectly okay.
• 20:08
  Ursula: We are millions of people.
• 20:09
  Tracy: I think in the situations too, there are situations that show up for us to go, "Okay, well, uh, that's not how I'm gonna facilitate."
• 20:17
  Ursula: Yes.
• 20:17
  Tracy: You know?
• 20:17
  Tracy: Yes.
• 20:18
  Tracy: It's, it's, uh… I had to exper- experience that to go- Yes"Oh no, there's no way I want to do
• 20:23
  Ursula: that." We have got to experience it.
• 20:24
  Ursula: Yes, it does.
• 20:24
  Ursula: Yes.
• 20:25
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 20:25
  Ursula: Yes.
• 20:25
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 20:26
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 20:27
  Tracy: Ah, brilliant.
• 20:28
  Tracy: How has, how has constellation impacted on your family for, for your system?
• 20:33
  Tracy: Is there a… C- can you see?
• 20:36
  Ursula: So for my, my system of origin, it… As I said, I had this, this, uh… I started with constellations because of that painful experience with my mother and my sister.
• 20:49
  Ursula: Um, my mother, my mother died, so I couldn't physically, I would say, make peace with her because she had dementia in her last years.
• 21:03
  Ursula: And still I had, as it's also in my book, I had this- beautiful experience with her when, uh, I saw her for the last time where she didn't recognize me anymore.
• 21:16
  Ursula: And, um, she said, "I don't know who you are." And then I just sat next to her.
• 21:21
  Ursula: I held her in my arms and I allowed … First, I, my life passed in front of my eyes.
• 21:29
  Ursula: You know, how I suffered with her many times, what she did, what I would have needed.
• 21:34
  Ursula: And then her life, I saw her life in my mind passing.
• 21:41
  Ursula: Mm. And how difficult her life was and the losses she had and the pain she endured.
• 21:49
  Ursula: And then I just felt gratitude for, that she, after all that, she gave life to me and she allowed me- Yeah … to be in this world.
• 21:58
  Ursula: And in that moment she opened her eyes, she looked at me and she said, "Ursula." Mm. I still get goosebumps when I think of it.
• 22:06
  Ursula: And I said, "Yeah, do you, do you know me now?" And she said, "No, I don't know you, but I know your eyes." And this for me was … And the eyes are the language of the soul.
• 22:17
  Ursula: That is … This is- Mm … how our souls connect.
• 22:19
  Ursula: So for me, this was everything is good, everything is healed, everything is fine.
• 22:24
  Ursula: My father was already dead when I started with constellations, but, so I, I just could reconcile with them in my heart.
• 22:31
  Ursula: With my sister, there is still, uh, unfortunately a situation where she doesn't want to- Really get in touch.
• 22:40
  Ursula: She is in her old story, and I offered several times to connect.
• 22:45
  Ursula: Eventually, I just said,"She's in my heart.
• 22:47
  Ursula: She's my sister.
• 22:48
  Ursula: I love her.
• 22:49
  Ursula: If, at any time she wants to reconnect, I'm here." Um, but I'm
• 22:54
  Tracy: at peace.
• 22:54
  Tracy: And, and that's the beauty of constellations when we get that, right?
• 22:57
  Ursula: Yes.
• 22:58
  Ursula: Yes.
• 22:58
  Tracy: And we're not trying to force anything, and we're just- Yes … we're, uh, taking them as they are.
• 23:02
  Tracy: Yes.
• 23:03
  Tracy: And that is how it is because- Yeah … you can't change them.
• 23:06
  Tracy: It's, uh- Yeah … we can only change that part of us as to how I- We can
• 23:10
  Ursula: only- Yeah change, transform something within us.
• 23:13
  Ursula: Mm-hmm.
• 23:13
  Ursula: And for my present family, I can say that constellations have saved my mar- my marriage.
• 23:18
  Ursula: Yes.
• 23:19
  Tracy: Mm.
• 23:20
  Ursula: Yes.
• 23:20
  Ursula: Mm. They have changed the way I live my relationship.
• 23:24
  Ursula: They have… Yeah, it was very hard at the beginning, but after 27 years, I can say I'm so glad that I have the best man I, I can have next to
• 23:36
  Tracy: me.
• 23:36
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 23:37
  Tracy: That's wonderful to hear.
• 23:38
  Tracy: That's very cool.
• 23:40
  Tracy: Very cool.
• 23:41
  Tracy: When you're, when you're meeting people, how do you describe the work that you do?
• 23:44
  Tracy: When someone says, "So what do you do?"
• 23:47
  Ursula: This is an interesting question because, uh, hardly anyone asks me that because usually people know what I do.
• 23:55
  Ursula: But if I, if I met someone asking me that questions, I would say, "I support people in reconciling with their past, with their family- Mm and eventually with themselves." That's what I do.
• 24:10
  Tracy: Great.
• 24:11
  Tracy: Great, great answer.
• 24:12
  Ursula: And I support people in allowing themselves to make decisions to live a good life.
• 24:19
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 24:19
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 24:20
  Tracy: That's wonderful.
• 24:21
  Tracy: And I, and then, and that's… Just trying to think of the word for that.
• 24:25
  Tracy: Nope, I hear, I heard something and it's gone, so we'll, we'll cut that bit out.
• 24:30
  Ursula: Um- Maybe it will come.
• 24:31
  Tracy: Yeah, maybe it'll come back.
• 24:33
  Tracy: On that train of thought somewhere, it's gone off.
• 24:35
  Tracy: But I, I was thinking about, um, I remember Jan Jacob Stam in a workshop saying, um… Oh, I asked,"How do you take care of yourself?
• 24:47
  Tracy: What, what do you do to take care of your, yeah, yourself and, um, in the work?" And he says, "I don't h- I don't help people."
• 24:57
  Ursula: Yes, yes.
• 24:58
  Tracy: And I, and I was like, this is… I was like, "What? What do you mean?" This is way back then.
• 25:04
  Tracy: And I was thinking, "That's what we do.
• 25:06
  Tracy: We're facilitators." And, and he goes, "I don't help people, because if I help them, I'm taking away their experience." Yes.
• 25:15
  Tracy: Ah.
• 25:15
  Tracy: He says, "I can guide someone to something, but it's, uh, totally them.
• 25:20
  Tracy: I'm not helping them, because helping in, in that context of, um, helping and doing." And it was like, ah, that makes sense.
• 25:30
  Tracy: Yeah, 'cause it's also a leak of energy, isn't it, when we are, um, in that-
• 25:35
  Ursula: But, you know, the thing is, uh, we have the orders of helping, and the orders of helping say exactly that.
• 25:41
  Ursula: Mm-hmm.
• 25:41
  Ursula: And I always wonder that many people who have trained or trained in constellations know so little about the orders of helping.
• 25:48
  Tracy: And- It's not as well known as the, as the orders of our love.
• 25:51
  Tracy: I had been- But,
• 25:52
  Ursula: but it's the basic of our… How can I facilitate without knowing the orders of helping?
• 25:57
  Ursula: It's- Mm-hmm … it's, it's, it… For me, it's mandatory in every training.
• 26:01
  Ursula: And Hellinger himself said, "Don't try to be helpful. Try to be useful." Mm-hmm.
• 26:08
  Ursula: And that's a big difference Because when we, when… I mean, the thing is, you know, that every one of us in a helping profession, no matter if it's facilitators of constellations, therapists, counselors, social workers, we all do that work or we start doing that work because we want to help.
• 26:28
  Ursula: Mm. And most of us start doing that work from our own wound from childhood.
• 26:33
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 26:33
  Ursula: So we project on other people what, what we bring with us.
• 26:39
  Ursula: Um, and once we understand this, we can let go of this.
• 26:45
  Tracy: Absolutely.
• 26:45
  Tracy: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:46
  Ursula: And as, as you said, as Jan Jacob said, uh, if I… I have never done any workshop with him, but it's perfect.
• 26:55
  Ursula: It's, it's absolutely what, what, what I think too and h- Mm … what I teach too.
• 27:01
  Ursula: Uh, if, if we go, um, if I, if I meet someone, if I encounter someone who suffers and I start thinking,"How can I help that person?" I'm already or projecting something that I think I know what that person needs or I come with my mind.
• 27:21
  Ursula: So for me it is if I connect with my heart, if I open my heart, I can listen to what comes from that person.
• 27:29
  Ursula: And as you said, who am I to, to know or who am I to, to know what that person needs in that moment?
• 27:37
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 27:38
  Ursula: It might be that someone- You talked about experience, taking away experience.
• 27:44
  Ursula: It might be that that person needs to go through another month of suffering to understand something.
• 27:52
  Ursula: All of a sudden, an insight comes up.
• 27:55
  Ursula: In, in my training groups, most of them are therapists, and this is the first thing that they unlearn.
• 28:01
  Ursula: Mm-hmm.
• 28:01
  Ursula: And they all say in their final essays, "One of the most liberating things I learned was that I do not need to help." Yeah.
• 28:11
  Ursula: That it is enough to be there.
• 28:13
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 28:13
  Tracy: Yeah, Maria Dilins c- says, um, in her training, she says, uh, "I'm te- I'm h- I'm going to teach you how to unlearn." Yes.
• 28:22
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 28:22
  Tracy: Yes, yes.
• 28:22
  Tracy: "How to unlearn all the things that- Yeah … the things that you've learned and, and to be."
• 28:26
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 28:27
  Tracy: To be present and, uh- Yes … and to see what is there.
• 28:30
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 28:31
  Tracy: To be
• 28:31
  Ursula: with what's in front of you.
• 28:32
  Ursula: And it's also when we want to help, we are no longer connected with the field.
• 28:37
  Ursula: The field doesn't want to help.
• 28:38
  Ursula: The field just brings up what comes.
• 28:41
  Ursula: So if I want to help, I'm in my head, but I can connect through the f- with the field only through my heart.
• 28:47
  Ursula: Mm. And, and also hear some people have, have a different idea about what does it mean connected with my heart.
• 28:54
  Ursula: Some people think, "Oh, yeah, it's empathy, feeling what the other person feels." And I, I always say, "This is an illusion.
• 29:02
  Ursula: You cannot feel what another person feels.
• 29:05
  Ursula: It's impossible.
• 29:06
  Ursula: You feel your own feelings connected with their experience." Mm. Because you might have felt or experienced something similar.
• 29:15
  Ursula: So empathy is, um… empathy is being with someone without… I don't want to say without feeling, but without being dragged into their feelings.
• 29:28
  Tracy: Yeah, without absorbing it, do you mean?
• 29:30
  Tracy: Yes.
• 29:30
  Tracy: Like, taking it on.
• 29:32
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 29:32
  Ursula: Mm. So if I have a client in front of me and I see the client suffering or, or in a very difficult situation, I, I never think,"Oh, my God, that poor person."
• 29:42
  Tracy: Mm.
• 29:43
  Ursula: I look at them and I say, "Wow. How strong are they?"
• 29:47
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 29:48
  Tracy: "Because-" Yes… Ursula: and let's see what comes up.
• 29:51
  Tracy: Let's see what, what, what in that moment is maybe asked of them or what could be the next steps for them.
• 29:59
  Tracy: Mm. Yeah.
• 30:00
  Tracy: That's… Yeah.
• 30:01
  Ursula: And sometimes it's- Great
• 30:02
  Tracy: aware- it's great awareness.
• 30:04
  Ursula: Yes.
• 30:04
  Ursula: Yes.
• 30:05
  Ursula: Mm. Yes.
• 30:06
  Ursula: And, and the interesting thing is also I, I just had… Last weekend I had… Last weekend I think.
• 30:12
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 30:13
  Ursula: I had a constellation day, and there were two participants who had already done constellations with me.
• 30:22
  Ursula: And somehow it was always about- the same things.
• 30:27
  Ursula: And it became so clear that it was the story that was in their mind.
• 30:31
  Ursula: So I suggested this time to use the life integration process that Wilfried Nelles has developed.
• 30:42
  Tracy: And
• 30:42
  Ursula: this was mind-blowing, because the life integration process allows us independently from, from the system, allows us to get in touch with ourselves and see ourselves in the different stages of our life.
• 30:58
  Ursula: Um, and how can I say, uh, uncover the stories that we have created in our mind.
• 31:06
  Ursula: So it could be that- Mm … I say, "Oh my God, you know, I was such a poor baby, and I was, I was weak from the beginning, and my life started so badly." And then we see that representative, strong, full of power, coming into this life and just saying, "Why don't you let me?"
• 31:28
  Tracy: Mm.
• 31:29
  Ursula: So, uh, this is f- for me, it's, it's, it's one of also the, the kinds of constellations that we can do to, especially-
• 31:40
  Tracy: Wh- who did you say it was?
• 31:41
  Tracy: Who w- whose?
• 31:42
  Ursula: It's called the life integration process.
• 31:45
  Ursula: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:45
  Ursula: And the, the one who developed it is a German.
• 31:49
  Ursula: His name is Wilfried Nelles.
• 31:52
  Tracy: Wilfried Nelles.
• 31:53
  Tracy: I think I've heard his name before.
• 31:55
  Ursula: Yes, yes.
• 31:55
  Ursula: Mm. It's, it's, it's amazing.
• 31:57
  Ursula: And, and you only have representatives for the, for the stages before you.
• 32:03
  Ursula: So one representative for yourself in the womb, another representative as a toddler, then the teenager.
• 32:11
  Ursula: Then depending on your age, if you are still young, if you're a teenager, of course you are you are in the position of the teenager.
• 32:19
  Ursula: If you are at a young age, then you are in that position.
• 32:23
  Ursula: Then we have the, the numbers, 5 is… would be m- me, so elder people but before retirement that are still working.
• 32:35
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 32:36
  Ursula: And then number 6 is after retirement, so the last stage of our life.
• 32:41
  Ursula: And number 7 is death, um, never has a representative, but it's there also to be aware, where am I in this moment in my life?
• 32:51
  Ursula: And it's really… I love it.
• 32:52
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 32:54
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 32:55
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 32:56
  Tracy: Um, if, if someone wants to get one of your books, where would they find it?
• 33:01
  Tracy: How would they find your book?
• 33:03
  Ursula: They find it on Amazon.
• 33:04
  Tracy: Okay.
• 33:05
  Ursula: Yes.
• 33:06
  Ursula: It is in, in Eng- So I s- I wrote it first in English and then I translated it in German.
• 33:12
  Ursula: Yes.
• 33:13
  Ursula: So the English is not perfect, but I am not perfect and, uh, it's just how I, how I speak, so yeah.
• 33:20
  Ursula: But, um, um, yeah, just on Amazon, In the Spirit of Love and Reconciliation, or if you put Ursula Maria Bell- In both you can find it.
• 33:31
  Ursula: It's… You can, uh, find it as a hardcover, hardcover, as a softcover, and- Mm … a e-book.
• 33:39
  Ursula: Yes.
• 33:40
  Ursula: It's also in German since last year, but yeah.
• 33:45
  Tracy: Oh, fantastic.
• 33:46
  Tracy: And you're on Instagram and Facebook.
• 33:48
  Ursula: I'm on- Is it?
• 33:49
  Ursula: I'm on Instagram, I'm on Facebook, but I think I will stop my Facebook because I will take a sabbatical in 2027.
• 33:59
  Ursula: Mm. Um, I feel that something new wants to be born, which, uh, is more than constellations, so more combining- Mm … logotherapy with the orders of love- Yeah … with constellations.
• 34:14
  Ursula: But also, at the moment I'm including also the German philosophers because it's, it's all one, it all makes sense.
• 34:22
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 34:23
  Ursula: So, yeah.
• 34:24
  Ursula: So from facilitating and teaching, I want maybe in 2028 come up with something that is more about sharing and how can we live our best lives and contribute the best to this crazy world that is, we have in that moment.
• 34:45
  Ursula: Um, yeah.
• 34:47
  Ursula: But we will see what will come up.
• 34:49
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 34:49
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 34:50
  Tracy: Well, I mean, a year sabbatical, a lot can happen in a year, right?
• 34:55
  Ursula: Absolutely.
• 34:56
  Ursula: Mm-hmm.
• 34:56
  Ursula: And I will… I already started to write my second book, which is that combination, so I will take time for that.
• 35:03
  Ursula: And I'm, I'm… I realize also, and I think this is also something important, that we might not, often not realize when we love what we're doing, how exhausted we can be.
• 35:17
  Ursula: Mm. I mean, I'm now… It's 16 years that I fully work with constellations.
• 35:23
  Ursula: I create a genogram of every client I work with, so I have nearly 1,000 genograms here in my book, and, uh, in my, in my desk.
• 35:34
  Ursula: Done so much deep connection work, uh, creating new seminars, new workshops, the trainings, and I realized that I was just running, running, running, running, creating the next step.
• 35:48
  Ursula: So it felt like I can allow myself a break now and-
• 35:54
  Tracy: Mm… Ursula: get back to myself, and again, as see what comes up, uh, from within.
• 36:03
  Tracy: Yes.
• 36:04
  Tracy: Oh, that's wonderful.
• 36:06
  Tracy: Yeah, and good, yeah, good reminder for people as well.
• 36:09
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 36:10
  Tracy: Yes.
• 36:10
  Tracy: 'Cause, yeah, sometimes we get so absorbed in it.
• 36:13
  Tracy: And I, I was like you, you know.
• 36:15
  Tracy: The first time I experienced constellations it was like, "Oh, this is… I'm meant to do this." And it's been a real deep passion and, uh, yeah, and flow on ever since then too, so yeah, I get that.
• 36:26
  Tracy: And, uh, I look forward to seeing what is birthed.
• 36:30
  Ursula: Thank you.
• 36:31
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 36:31
  Ursula: Thank you very much.
• 36:32
  Ursula: Yes.
• 36:32
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 36:32
  Ursula: I will continue my newsletter, so if anyone wants to, to, uh, be part of, on my newsletter list, I send them regularly, uh, each month.
• 36:42
  Ursula: And I always write an article about a topic.
• 36:46
  Ursula: So, uh, especially next year there will be no more announcements because I don't have any workshops.
• 36:53
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 36:53
  Ursula: So it will really be mostly about sharing and, uh, and, and about articles about certain topics.
• 37:00
  Ursula: Right.
• 37:00
  Ursula: Maybe I will ask, uh, what people want to know about, so we will see.
• 37:06
  Ursula: Yeah, so this
• 37:06
  Tracy: is- So what's the name of your website for people to, um, access?
• 37:09
  Tracy: It's
• 37:09
  Ursula: my name, ursulamariabell.com.
• 37:12
  Tracy: Okay.
• 37:13
  Tracy: Brilliant.
• 37:13
  Ursula: Yes.
• 37:14
  Tracy: And we'll put
• 37:14
  Ursula: that link- Without dots- Yeah … without dashes.
• 37:16
  Ursula: Yeah.
• 37:16
  Ursula: Just ursulamariabell.com, yes.
• 37:18
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 37:19
  Tracy: We'll put that link into the thread as well.
• 37:21
  Tracy: So thank you so much for sharing your time.
• 37:25
  Tracy: And, um, yeah, it's been really lovely to connect with you here on this platform.
• 37:30
  Ursula: Thank you so much, Tracy, for having me.
• 37:32
  Ursula: I'm really honored and grateful for you allowing me to be here.
• 37:37
  Tracy: Oh.
• 37:37
  Ursula: And, yeah.
• 37:37
  Ursula: You're welcome.
• 37:38
  Tracy: It's, it's lovely.
• 37:39
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 37:40
  Tracy: Thank you.
• 37:41
  Ursula: Thank you.
• 37:42
  Tracy: Thank you for listening.
• 37:44
  Tracy: Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
• 37:48
  Tracy: You'll find me at tracy.cartwright, that's Tracy with no E, .cartwright.
• 37:55
  Tracy: And, or head over to my website, tracycartwright.co.nz, and receive a free audio with a gift from your ancestors.
• 38:04
  Tracy: So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.