Latest / Future Christian / Rethinking Seminary for the Next Generation: Bekah Buchterkirchen on Innovation, Inclusion, and Formation

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Rethinking Seminary for the Next Generation: Bekah Buchterkirchen on Innovation, Inclusion, and Formation · Future Christian

0:07
>> Loren Richmond: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:13
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond Jr. Is in conversation
0:50
with Becca Buchter Kirkhan.
0:52
Becca is a writer, speaker and creative
0:55
collaborator passionate about cultivating joy
0:58
and faith in every season. With
1:01
nearly a decade in Christian higher education
1:03
and ministry, alongside her pastor husband,
1:06
she seeks to create spaces where curiosity,
1:09
hospitality, and the love of Jesus meet.
1:13
She lives in the Pacific Northwest with
1:16
their two, almost three young kids and
1:18
writes to encourage moms in the trenches of
1:21
motherhood to seek the Lord daily, even when
1:24
they feel like it's not enough.
1:27
A reminder. Before we start today's conversation,
1:30
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
1:33
leave a review and share Future Christian with
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with comments, questions or ideas for future
1:49
episodes. We appreciate your
1:52
voice in how we faithfully discern the future
1:55
of the church.
2:05
>> Loren: Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. My name is Loren
2:08
Richmond Jr. And today I'm pleased to be joined by
2:10
Becca Buckturkin. Thanks so much for
2:13
being here.
2:15
>> Speaker D: Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.
2:17
>> Loren: Yeah. Looking forward to having this conversation.
2:20
Is there anything else you want listeners to know about you?
2:24
>> Speaker D: Yeah. When thinking about the conversation we're going to dive into,
2:27
I was thinking it might be helpful for listeners to know
2:30
that I worked, uh, for nearly a
2:33
decade in Christian higher education at three different
2:35
institutions. Um, and
2:38
all during eight of those years, my husband
2:41
has also been in seminary alongside
2:43
pastoral ministry. So for the two of
2:46
us, we have been deeply formed by
2:49
theological education. Um, um, and we
2:51
also really believe in the local church despite all
2:54
the chaos of the past several years. And,
2:58
and so I think for me, how I try to always approach
3:01
conversations like these is to not show
3:04
up thinking I, I have the answers,
3:07
but with a heart that's still being formed and is gen
3:10
generally curious. So I'm looking forward to what we'll
3:13
be discussing today.
3:14
>> Loren: Absolutely appreciate that perspective.
3:16
Do you want to share a bit about your faith journey, what that's looked like in the
3:19
past and what that looks like today.
3:21
>> Speaker D: Yeah. So I was really fortunate to
3:24
grow up in, um, an entire
3:27
family, including all of my extended family that
3:30
have known Jesus, walked with Jesus for decades.
3:34
And so I like to say that I
3:37
really feel like I have known and
3:39
loved Jesus ever since I was a little girl.
3:42
And it has just been this gradual process of
3:45
getting to know him on a deeper level all throughout my life.
3:48
And, um, surprisingly, I didn't
3:51
really have this falling away sort of season.
3:54
Um, and for me, I think, in
3:57
the past, looking back on it, I grew up in public
4:00
school my whole life until I went away to
4:03
a private Christian college. And that's when the
4:06
Bible just became very real to me and I
4:09
gained a lot of head knowledge. But then
4:12
I think where I struggled was, wait a second, now that
4:15
I have all this head knowledge, how is it supposed
4:18
to impact my heart? And how do I.
4:21
I, uh, don't know. It's kind of strange to me that I think a lot of the times when
4:24
we grow in our knowledge of God and the
4:27
Scriptures, a lot of time, pride can get in
4:30
there. And, um. And so
4:33
what it means for me to be a Christian now, it has looked
4:36
a lot more like, um,
4:39
soul care. And I think with my husband having served
4:42
in pastoral ministry, getting to sit
4:45
in front of people and listen and hear their stories
4:48
and see the way that God has been moving in their life,
4:51
that's really been a beautiful opportunity
4:54
for me to try to experience not just head
4:57
knowledge, but also heart knowledge. And how does it impact everything we
5:00
do?
5:01
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah, that's great.
5:03
I'm curious just because this is a theme that I've been
5:05
following a lot, even if informally
5:08
with guests, too, as I've followed this
5:11
sort of on the broader trend. Like,
5:14
obviously, there's no, like, formula. Right. This is, I think, a
5:16
mistake that often happens in some Christian circles is,
5:19
like, we have the formula for raising our kids so they will not
5:22
depart from the faith. Like, is there anything, like you
5:25
think that your parents or your
5:28
Christian faith context did, right, to kind of
5:31
help you not have that typical,
5:34
like, falling away?
5:36
>> Speaker D: Gosh, I think about that often, too. Especially now,
5:39
raising my own kids.
5:40
>> Loren: Yeah.
5:40
>> Speaker D: Where I'm like, what? Okay, what was it? Because I have two
5:43
siblings, and similarly, they both love
5:46
Jesus. And, um, the only
5:49
thing that I can think of in my own personal life is I like to
5:52
say that I'm a product of mentorship, like, very
5:55
intentional discipleship, and my Parents
5:59
didn't assume that they were going
6:01
to be the sole tenders
6:04
of making sure that they pass on the generation of faith.
6:08
And so I had several men and women
6:11
within our local church context
6:14
that poured into me and that were just
6:17
present in my life and I looked up to
6:20
them. And so because of that, I think it helped
6:22
me stay rooted when situations
6:25
arose where it would have been easy for me to stray.
6:28
>> Loren: Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. Thanks for sharing that.
6:32
What kind of, uh, spiritual practice do you find
6:34
meaningful today or help you sustain your faith?
6:37
>> Speaker D: M. Yeah, so right now for me, I,
6:40
um, I made the really hard decision a
6:43
year ago to not return to full time work outside
6:46
of the home after my second, uh, kiddo was
6:49
born. And I
6:52
think being a full time
6:54
caretaker now to little kids, I
6:57
grieved how much my relationship with God
6:59
changed. Uh, my husband and I were married for
7:02
seven years before we became parents. And
7:06
that gave me a lot of time to develop practices
7:08
and rhythms that helped me feel
7:11
healthy. And then once I
7:14
had kids, all of that just got thrown out the window where you're like, wait a
7:17
second, uh, I don't have time to just sit,
7:20
um, in stillness and read scripture
7:23
or journal or whatever. So for me
7:26
it's been over the last several years, a
7:28
practice that I regularly return to has been
7:31
breath prayers. And those are
7:34
just, they're monumental for me. They're like
7:37
my lifeline throughout the day when I start to feel
7:39
frustrated or like I'm losing my patience just to
7:42
have some sort of scripture that I can breathe in,
7:45
breathe out, and rest
7:48
in the knowledge that God is with me, the Spirit is
7:51
present, and I can continue about my day.
7:54
>> Loren: Yeah, that's great. That's great. Thank you for sharing that.
7:57
Well, I had Becca on to talk about her
8:00
experience in
8:02
theological education. This is a topic that I
8:05
think is incredibly important to the future of the church.
8:09
You know, broadly speaking, for our context
8:11
in America's sake. And
8:15
uh, we're undergoing like, obviously a, uh, serious time of just
8:18
change and disruption with
8:21
attendance, institutional
8:23
stability. I mean, you name the disruption,
8:26
like we're experiencing it. And
8:30
I've primarily approached this conversation just
8:33
from my current most, my most
8:36
recent situation or context being in mainline
8:39
prosthetism. But certainly I follow
8:43
evangelical institutions. And so I'm curious, like,
8:46
to talk about how these same dynamics or challenges are
8:49
playing out in those contexts. So, uh, I guess first of
8:51
all, you know, I think it's interesting like, like you said, like you worked
8:54
in a seminary Your husband attended it.
8:57
So you really saw like both sides,
9:00
Both sides of it very well. Like,
9:03
what do you think? Like, are the, just to start out, like, what are the
9:05
biggest challenges facing seminaries
9:08
as, as institutions today?
9:11
>> Speaker D: Mhm. Oh man, it's such a good question.
9:14
And I think the hardest part about it is like you're saying
9:16
it's not just one thing which makes it so
9:19
challenging, but a few things that really have stood out to
9:22
me are,
9:23
um, I think, correct
9:26
me if I'm wrong, but I believe the seminary and
9:29
theological education was born out of the church.
9:33
And I think over the years we have seen that kind
9:36
of start to divide a little bit where
9:39
it's no longer integrated as thoughtfully
9:42
as it maybe once was. I know even for my
9:44
husband, with, um, applying to
9:47
different churches, and it's no longer,
9:51
um, a requirement at many churches that you
9:53
have to have theological training. And that has
9:56
even been a really interesting shift to see. So I feel
9:59
like at kind of like the broader level, it's
10:02
churches who um, need
10:05
to almost be convinced, like, why does theological education
10:08
still matter and how can it actually
10:11
impact our congregation?
10:13
Um, because then what it ends
10:16
up lending itself to is the seminary that I
10:19
worked at. We didn't have a large endowment
10:22
that was able to offset the significant
10:25
rising costs.
10:26
>> Loren: Right.
10:27
>> Speaker D: And when that's the case, you have
10:30
to partner with the church to be able to say, hey,
10:33
what about cohort based models? Are you open to
10:36
doing that? Hey, could we use your facilities to be able
10:39
to host classes? Or if you have
10:42
a pastor, um, or even
10:45
like a person on staff that is helping
10:48
to care for your flock, um, would you be
10:50
willing to financially contribute a little bit? And then our
10:53
seminary would be happy to match that
10:56
to make it more affordable for the student.
10:59
So I think those are just like some of the
11:02
initial things that come to mind. But
11:06
um, yeah, I mean, what are your thoughts on that?
11:08
>> Loren: Well, that's good. Uh, you're kind of stealing our thunder here. So
11:11
I'm glad you just hinted at, I guess you gave a little teaser there to
11:14
cohorts and endowments. So we'll hopefully come back
11:17
and explore that here in a little bit.
11:19
Something I think you can especially speak to,
11:22
I'm hoping, as you served, what Dean of
11:25
students, right? Is that correct? Yeah, yeah. So
11:29
one of my previous guests was John Hawthorne, who wrote
11:32
about, had a long history
11:34
or career in Christian education
11:37
and talked about how the, I can't remember
11:40
exactly how it said the current student or the future
11:43
student is not white,
11:46
not male. I Can't remember exactly what it said, but it's basically making the point
11:50
the era of 20 something white
11:53
guy student, uh, and I imagine
11:56
to some extent in seminary, uh, what
11:59
are, what are you seeing about how the student body has
12:02
changed, whether not just in demographics but also
12:05
in age, in, I don't know, social
12:08
income. Yeah, talk about that.
12:10
>> Speaker D: Yeah. Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up because,
12:13
um, in my role as Dean of Students, one
12:16
of my favorite things that we got to do was we
12:19
hosted, um, or we put on different
12:22
uh, questionnaires to the entire student body to
12:25
be able to see, like what, what are the changes that are
12:27
occurring. And if you looked back 10 years,
12:31
could see that exact trend where the age
12:34
of student has significantly
12:36
increased.
12:37
>> Loren: Yeah.
12:38
>> Speaker D: And this wasn't something that was just at our
12:40
seminary. Um, we were able to
12:43
see with the association of Theological
12:46
Schools, um, what are the trends that
12:49
are going on nationwide.
12:52
And a lot of seminaries were seeing that. So even
12:55
at my local seminary, what was happening was
12:58
it was no longer like young, 20 something
13:01
white, uh, male. It was actually our average
13:04
student was a 34 year old male
13:08
who was working full time
13:11
and attending seminary part time.
13:14
And so that was a huge shift. We also saw a
13:17
significant increase of more female
13:20
students that were attending seminary.
13:22
But what was really fascinating about that was when
13:25
we asked a male and a female
13:28
seminary student like, what, what is your
13:31
career outcome? Or what's your trajectory? Where are
13:34
you headed? More often than not
13:36
the male students were, were able to have a clear
13:39
answer to that. And they said, this is exactly what I plan to
13:42
do. Our female students, not the
13:45
faintest clue. Because I think in the
13:48
churches there's not always a clear,
13:50
um, outcome for what women can do
13:53
with a theological degree.
13:56
>> Loren: Right.
13:56
>> Speaker D: And that was really fascinating to see too.
13:59
Um, but I loved the fact that we
14:02
had so many, um,
14:05
older students that were in their 50s
14:07
and 60s that had lived these long
14:10
careers and were now coming back and saying,
14:13
I just want to grow in my faith and
14:17
serve my local body. And that was really, really
14:20
beautiful.
14:21
>> Loren: Yeah, that's so interesting because again, that even matches
14:24
what I've seen again in mainline context where it's like
14:27
second and even sometimes, like you said, I think
14:30
third career. I guess if you're 50s or 60s, you could define
14:33
it like as a third career, almost. Students coming
14:36
back, certainly an increase
14:39
in female, non male.
14:43
I'm curious about too,
14:46
how you saw this challenge play out. I'm
14:49
assuming it's a challenge. Again, you talked about that
14:52
the age increase of the 34 year old
14:55
male working full time. Whether
14:58
someone's male or female, if they're in their 30s
15:01
or 40s, they probably have kids or
15:03
jobs or responsibilities, relationships.
15:07
And I imagine that makes this whole
15:09
seminary experience a lot more complicated.
15:13
Like I remember even just, I
15:16
mean, I was in my late 20s when I did seminary, just thinking about,
15:19
I didn't have kids yet, but just like the
15:21
strain on my marriage, relationship and there weren't
15:24
kids in the picture yet. Uh,
15:27
I mean, obviously there's some kind of growing and
15:30
changing during seminary.
15:33
How did you experience it or how did your seminary
15:36
experience like working with students and their families
15:39
to help support the whole unit.
15:42
>> Speaker D: Oh, man. Yeah, that was
15:45
probably the number one thing that we heard from
15:47
students. Piece of feedback was, I
15:50
am juggling so much right now.
15:53
And so no longer was it assumed
15:56
that all of their attention was going to be fixated
15:59
on the degree that they were receiving. Like, oh, come
16:02
for four years and then you'll be done. A lot
16:05
of our students, like my husband, eight years
16:08
in seminary because he's been working
16:11
full time and doing this part time.
16:14
Um, so it's, it was a
16:17
challenge. And I think it's also
16:20
because of that reality of having
16:23
older students, they're not as willing to
16:26
uproot their families and move to attend
16:29
seminary. So then you have these brick and
16:32
mortar campuses that are not being
16:34
filled by a student body, which is
16:37
another challenge of, okay, so how do you pivot
16:40
to online theological education
16:43
but not lose the importance of
16:46
spiritual formation? And that was a
16:48
tension that we really saw where our faculty
16:51
deeply cared about. I want to know who these
16:54
students are. M. If we are
16:57
giving our stamp of approval and saying they're going to go
17:00
pastor, we want to make sure that we feel
17:02
good about their character too.
17:04
>> Loren: Yeah, let's talk about that brick and mortar
17:07
challenge because I just saw the news
17:10
yesterday or this week of a seminary.
17:13
I follow, like my next guest
17:15
hopefully will be a, uh, professor from Luther
17:18
Seminary in, I think Minneapolis.
17:21
And I just saw that they're selling their campus or
17:24
making plans to sell their campus. I
17:27
mean, again, it's. Nothing shocks me anymore.
17:30
>> Speaker D: Yeah.
17:30
>> Loren: Just because, like you, you talked about like the financial
17:33
challenges and feel free to, to go into this too,
17:36
if you want to. But, you know, you mentioned endowments.
17:39
Some schools have bigger endowments than others. I know
17:42
my alma mater, Phillips Seminary, uh, shout
17:45
out. They support the pod like they have, I think a fairly
17:48
healthy endowment, which is very much
17:52
strengthened
17:55
their impact and their ability to be sustainable.
17:58
Like I gave you a lot there. So respond to what
18:01
you want to respond to.
18:03
>> Speaker D: Oh yeah, I'm seeing
18:06
that same thing. And I remember even when I was in that role,
18:09
it almost felt like monthly is too strong.
18:12
But certainly quarterly or twice a year you
18:15
would hear the news. I mean even Ted's University
18:18
where you're just like, what happened? And
18:22
how did we not see this coming?
18:24
Um, and how do we try to stay
18:27
nimble enough to where you can pivot
18:30
and make those pivots so that way you're not having
18:33
to sell your campus or
18:36
um, I don't know, like merge with another
18:38
seminary and. But I,
18:42
I don't know.
18:43
Um, yeah, I
18:45
don't have a clear cut answer for that. But I think going
18:48
to the funding piece.
18:51
>> Loren: Mhm.
18:52
>> Speaker D: That's, that's really huge. And
18:55
again, I think it has to be this
18:58
creative opportunity to try to see like
19:01
our students don't have thousands of dollars that they can
19:04
pour into seminary education on their own when they
19:07
know the role that they likely carry
19:10
is not going to help them pay off their debt anytime
19:13
soon.
19:14
>> Loren: Yeah, let's dive into that more
19:16
because I was just listening to a conversation with Chuck De Groat
19:21
and he was talking about like when he's. It's funny because
19:24
I looked up Chuck De Groat also teaches a Western
19:26
Seminary, but it's the one in Michigan, not the one
19:29
you're associated with.
19:31
>> Speaker D: Uh-huh.
19:31
>> Loren: Uh, but he was talking about in this
19:34
conversation like how he's encouraging students like
19:37
hey, it's likely it can be bivocationality or co.
19:39
Vocationality or whatever, you name it.
19:42
Certainly I think gone are the
19:45
days in the vast majority context where you
19:48
can expect to go out and get like a top of the market
19:51
type job. So
19:54
there's these dynamics of colleges in higher
19:57
education is not getting any cheaper,
20:00
while conversely like the pay is.
20:03
So let's talk about kind of like, you know, you hinted at earlier
20:06
like these, these cohort models, what are some,
20:08
some alternative models of higher
20:11
education that, that you've seen or you think should be explored
20:14
more?
20:15
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I, I love the cohort
20:18
based model. And that was something that Western Seminary
20:21
did a phenomenal job with.
20:23
And it really was when they went to
20:26
faculty members and enabled them to have some
20:29
creativity and to say, hey, what are you
20:31
passionate about? Um, what's a
20:35
program that we could develop that would be
20:37
appealing to different students? Um,
20:40
and so what they ended up doing is they would actually
20:43
partner with specific churches, um, who
20:46
were kind of larger based churches, but they said, hey, if
20:49
you can find 20 students
20:52
that was give, um, or take, that was around the
20:55
number that would make it feasible for professors to be
20:58
able to engage in it. And then the local church
21:01
would be able to find those students,
21:03
open up, in a lot of cases, their own facilities
21:07
for our professors to come and they would meet once a
21:10
month. Um, and all the rest of it was online,
21:13
so it was a far easier sell to students as
21:16
well. Where it was like, hey, give us one
21:19
day a month where it's an eight hour day, it's very long.
21:22
Um, but the rest of it will be online. But
21:25
you'll have this like, beautiful thriving
21:28
community. And another seminary I've seen
21:31
do really well with that is actually Denver Seminary.
21:33
>> Loren: Okay.
21:34
>> Speaker D: There's a whole group of
21:37
Christian female authors, speakers,
21:40
Bible teachers that are in a
21:43
cohort actively right now at Denver Seminary.
21:46
And the stories that they're sharing about just like
21:49
the life transformation that's happening has been really
21:52
cool. And for me, I'm like, I want to keep an eye
21:55
on that because I think that's going to be a really strategic
21:58
model moving forward. And
22:01
um, the other option that
22:03
I know, um, a lot of seminaries are exploring
22:06
are stackable certifications.
22:09
Instead of having like this huge M. Div. Program
22:12
that takes five years, it's like, hey, what if you
22:15
were to come in and you could get a certificate in
22:18
like Bible transformation or whatever. Um,
22:21
and a lot of times for students, all it takes is them to
22:24
experience the fruit of what they
22:27
receive from seminary that then they say, I want to
22:30
continue on. So then it's great, let's just continue
22:33
stacking. And if you stack this many,
22:36
then you end up with an MDIV or you can
22:39
just get a certificate and call it good.
22:42
>> Loren: Yeah, I think that's a great idea because I think
22:45
the market, so to speak, is trending in that model
22:48
certainly towards like graduate certificates. Like, I'm even
22:51
thinking of like Coursera and these online learning models
22:54
where you get a professional certificate or a graduate certificate.
22:57
And like you said, like, it's not like immediately
23:00
taking out a huge student loan.
23:03
>> Speaker D: Yeah.
23:03
>> Loren: You know, committing five years, like
23:06
four, five, six years, eight years. Like your husband.
23:10
Uh, and like you said, if you're like, man, I cannot
23:12
finish this, like you can walk away with
23:15
something. Uh, again,
23:18
I have to give a shout out to my
23:21
alma mater. They've been exploring this model too
23:24
through different programs. They have. I think it's so good.
23:28
The other side of this I want to ask about because again, you kind of
23:31
mentioned it this Lack of integration with churches, which
23:34
I think, I think is a
23:37
problem in many different ways, if anything,
23:39
because from my experience there
23:42
can be a disconnect to like what the people in the
23:45
pews are experiencing and
23:48
where they're at versus like where the
23:51
professors or students are at.
23:53
So I don't remember if we talked about this.
23:57
I wonder, uh, maybe in our email exchanges. But I
23:59
was thinking about, and I'm curious if you've had an
24:02
experience of this or thoughts on this. But like I was thinking about
24:05
years ago when I was in Bible college, like
24:09
the professors were often like local church pastors.
24:12
And obviously that's going to be variable based
24:15
on like the region. Like if there's a, you
24:18
know, if it's in a small town, there can only be so many like local
24:21
church pastors. Right.
24:24
I mean there can be a twofold advantage, certainly more like,
24:27
obviously, A, there's integration with the churches. B, like you're not
24:30
necessarily like, again, for the cost of the seminar, like you're not like
24:33
expecting that professor's not expecting a full
24:36
time salary. Like, what else have you seen? What else have
24:39
you seen in that regard?
24:44
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I, I think that's such
24:46
a great selling point also is for
24:49
students to know that, oh, the professors that I'm learning from
24:53
have been church planters or they're an elder at their
24:55
current church. Um, and they get
24:58
it, they have a finger on the pulse to what the
25:01
body is experiencing. Um, and
25:04
I mean shout out to Western Seminary. That's
25:07
one of their main, um, selling
25:10
points is the fact that nearly every
25:13
single full time seminary faculty member
25:16
is actively involved and serving in their church.
25:19
And one of my favorite classes
25:22
that they held and my husband got to be a part of this was
25:25
um, it was a professor who
25:28
continued to serve for decades in youth
25:31
ministry. And he would
25:34
ask every single student to bring in a case study
25:37
from their local church. And he would say, because
25:40
none of us like attend the same churches
25:42
here, it's a safe space for you to be able to
25:45
come and wrestle through. Like,
25:48
how do I navigate this? And what, how should
25:51
I respond? So they were doing this in real time.
25:55
And I loved when my husband came home from
25:58
those classes and, and he would just say, man, this
26:01
case study was so helpful to hear. Like,
26:04
I've never experienced that before, but it got me thinking,
26:07
how would I respond? And um,
26:09
so I think being able to have opportunities like
26:12
that or I've also seen
26:15
sometimes it's a requirement for
26:17
first year seminary students to have a
26:20
pastor in their Local church that's willing
26:23
to mentor them.
26:24
>> Loren: Yeah.
26:25
>> Speaker D: And, yeah, that's really cool, too, because it's almost this,
26:28
like, apprenticeship type thing.
26:30
>> Loren: Right.
26:30
>> Speaker D: Um, where the professor has different
26:33
points throughout the semester where they.
26:36
It requires, like, the pastor to submit a
26:39
form or maybe have a quick phone call,
26:42
check in just to see how are they doing. What are you noticing? What
26:45
should I be noticing and paying attention to inside the classroom?
26:49
>> Loren: Yeah. The apprenticeship, uh, model is interesting because, again,
26:52
like, there's,
26:55
broadly speaking, in our society, there seems to be,
26:58
hopefully, a growing need and hopefully
27:01
growing rise in
27:03
kind of the trades thing. And again, I'm
27:06
someone who really appreciates theological education, but also,
27:10
I think we can both agree there's some students who.
27:14
That's not their strength and still
27:17
are deeply called to love and. And
27:20
serve others to the local church. Also
27:24
feel strongly about their relationship with God and theology. But
27:28
I, uh, want there to be models, I guess, for them to be
27:31
like, I don't know, value is the right word,
27:34
but recognized. Um, certified. That's
27:37
not the right word, but hopefully. You get what I'm saying.
27:39
>> Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely. And I think
27:42
that's one of the unique
27:44
opportunities that seminary professors get
27:47
to enter into with students. I remember one
27:50
faculty member, he actually really struggled
27:53
with the word calling because he said, I see
27:56
so many of these students come in and they say, I'm
27:59
called to be a senior pastor. And
28:02
he's like, wow, well, what
28:05
happens if you're not actually very
28:08
skilled in it or it's not something that
28:11
I see for you in the future? And so, um,
28:13
to their credit, they were willing to have those hard
28:16
conversations. Um, and it wasn't just like a. Ah,
28:19
let me tell you, this will never be the case for you, but
28:22
more so, hey, let's take a step back. And what is that
28:25
rooted in? And what is your first
28:27
calling? Uh, it's to love God and love
28:30
others. And let's just take it one step at a time.
28:33
>> Loren: Yeah. I'm called to make, you know, 200k as a
28:36
pastor, so.
28:37
>> Speaker D: Right.
28:37
>> Loren: I'm gonna speak that into existence.
28:40
>> Speaker D: Uh-huh.
28:40
>> Loren: Uh, it reminds me of sort of how we got connected.
28:43
Is it Ariana? Is that how you say her name?
28:46
Previous guest, Ariana Malloy, who
28:49
really recommend her book. Uh, I'll
28:52
make sure to link in the show notes, our conversation,
28:55
but she talked about that. I can't
28:57
remember the word calling. Burnout or calling shame.
29:00
When your title doesn't
29:03
necessarily
29:06
attach or correlate with what you're
29:09
doing or your calling. I should say and
29:12
how to bridge that disconnect. I thought that was so helpful. And again,
29:14
I think that's where that's the
29:17
challenge, I suppose, of these online learning models where it's
29:20
just like fill a discussion post,
29:23
look at slideshows and write
29:26
papers. And again, that's very m.
29:29
Boiled down. But
29:32
in the online learning models,
29:35
what have you seen? What works well to kind of stay. Because
29:38
like you said, professors want to invest in students.
29:41
They don't want to just read discussion posts. I
29:44
can imagine.
29:45
>> Speaker D: Oh, absolutely.
29:47
Well, briefly, uh, Ariana's book Healthy Calling
29:50
is phenomenal. And uh, I've talked to my
29:53
husband about it a lot where he's like, as a pastor,
29:56
that disconnect that can happen between.
29:59
I used to feel called to this, but now I'm so burnt
30:01
out. Like, how do you bridge that gap? So, um, she
30:04
is a dear friend of mine. Um, so I'm so glad that
30:08
she connected us. But, um, thinking
30:11
about online education, like how, how
30:14
do you do that? Well, and I think a lot
30:17
of it is students who are willing
30:20
to show up and actively participate, even
30:22
in a zoom format. And I know that there's
30:25
this whole like asynchronous versus synchronous
30:28
learning and the broader
30:31
that your student body gets you, you start to
30:34
encounter significant challenges with people who are halfway
30:36
across the world in different time zones. So it
30:39
becomes more and more challenging. But I
30:42
do think that there's a way to do it. Um,
30:45
and even like how you and I are connecting right now via,
30:48
uh, this platform, it's like, okay,
30:51
you can start to get a sense for who is this
30:53
person and are they who they say they are?
30:56
Um, so I think it's possible. I know at,
30:59
uh, our seminary, what they offered was,
31:02
they offered a, it was one week, four times
31:05
a year. They called it Threshold. And they would
31:08
invite students who were distance learners
31:11
to come to campus and have an in
31:14
person experience where they would receive
31:16
credit for their courses. And it was kind of an intensive
31:19
process. But I know even for myself, when I was in
31:22
grad school, I actually went to, um,
31:25
Gonzaga University. As an online student.
31:27
>> Loren: Sure, yeah.
31:28
>> Speaker D: And that was a requirement. Was, hey, it's
31:31
a fully online program. However, during
31:34
your second year, you have to be willing to come to
31:37
campus, um, for a week long intensive.
31:40
So that way you could get to meet the professors face to
31:43
face. And I actually, I really like that
31:46
model. Um, I know it's, it can be a deterrent
31:49
to some students who are like, that's so expensive.
31:52
Um, but there's There's a great value to it.
31:56
>> Loren: Yeah, I've got to agree with you. When I was starting
31:59
seminary, I did online. In the first semester I didn't
32:03
go to the campus. And the second, like, I didn't feel like.
32:05
I didn't feel like I was really a seminary student
32:08
until that second
32:10
semester where I did a week long
32:13
intensive. Like that's when it hit home.
32:16
I'm thinking of another example. Like I think
32:19
it's Southern Seminary.
32:22
Can't remember. South. Can't remember. It's not Southern
32:25
Seminary. It's like somewhere in Tennessee there's
32:28
like a South. Something
32:31
Southwestern. No, because it's like
32:34
uh, it's like a. Anyway, they invited
32:36
me to like speak up. They just do like these weekly
32:39
like zoom cohorts where they have a speaker
32:43
like once a week and students can pop in and get credit
32:46
for popping in and engaging. Like you said in the
32:49
conversation or the. What happens?
32:51
Uh, like I said, another example I think of what you're talking about
32:55
of these Zoom or online participation
32:57
cohorts.
32:59
>> Speaker D: Oh, I love that. That's so creative too.
33:01
Mhm.
33:05
>> Loren: I want to ask this too because I think it's related. You mentioned
33:08
the challenges of jobs and
33:11
different time zones and family responsibilities,
33:15
socioeconomic demographics, so to speak.
33:18
What do you think schools,
33:21
what have you seen? What do you think schools still need to do?
33:25
Let's talk about this way, like to help
33:28
these non traditional students.
33:32
>> Speaker D: Yeah. Oh man.
33:36
I really feel like a lot of it kind of has to go back
33:38
to de
33:41
centering the western white male voice,
33:44
um, and seeing like what can we learn from the global
33:47
church. And a lot of that has to start at
33:50
the m
33:52
leadership level. Like being willing
33:55
to invite people who represent
33:58
the student body and faculty members who
34:01
more so reflect the student body. Because
34:04
really you can shape a classroom,
34:07
um, based on the type of faculty that
34:10
you have. And I think
34:13
that's something that I would love to see just continue
34:16
in that direction. Um, and
34:20
I don't know if this is exactly, um, related
34:23
or not, but something that's coming to mind is even trying
34:26
to enhance like lay education,
34:29
lay theological education for people
34:33
who are leading Bible studies in
34:35
their church or maybe their community group leaders.
34:39
And they love deep
34:42
study. But for them they're like, I would never go to
34:45
seminary because I work full time and it's, it's
34:48
not in the cards for me. Um, and that is
34:51
something where I feel like the Bible project has done a
34:53
phenomenal job. Um, as kind of
34:56
this. They, they offer
34:59
seminary level education. Um, but
35:02
it's at a very reduced cost or even
35:05
free. So I don't know. I wonder if
35:08
there's an opportunity for seminaries to start trying to think
35:11
strategically along those lines.
35:13
>> Loren: I think that's a great point, because if we think about
35:17
the traditional. I shouldn't say traditional. What's become
35:20
the church model, I suppose, over the last 10,
35:23
20 years? It's just like that one hour Sunday
35:25
morning, maybe you're in a small group, but the
35:28
whole traditional Sunday school and then
35:31
the worship service where you're getting
35:34
In Sunday school, 30, 40 minutes of
35:38
biblical education discussion, like, that's not happening.
35:41
Like, probably in a small group. Right. It's like, let's talk about
35:44
this verse for, you know, 15, 20
35:47
minutes. Maybe there's. Maybe there's some kind of
35:50
curriculum. But again, I really like your idea about some
35:53
kind of lay education program
35:56
and, uh, how that could. Oh, and then again, like, your
35:59
point about the Bible project,
36:02
like, certainly, I think
36:05
seminaries, like, they have, like, what's the,
36:08
what's the business word? Like, they have the, the market.
36:12
Like, they have the, the resources to be able, like, do
36:15
that. Well, like, I can't think of, like, the, the businessy
36:18
word, so to speak, but, like, uh, they should be able to,
36:20
like, again, it's just kind of thinking outside the box, thinking,
36:23
you know, long term, how can we engage with different
36:26
people in different ways because of, like you said, these different challenges.
36:30
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I know. You just reminded me. There were two
36:33
professors, um, that were so
36:35
creative, and they came up with a podcast
36:38
that they wanted to start.
36:39
>> Loren: Yeah.
36:40
>> Speaker D: And they titled it Food Trucks in Babylon because
36:43
our seminary is based in Portland. And so
36:46
it was a lot of, like, we are in a
36:49
very interesting,
36:51
uh, place, culturally speaking,
36:54
where we're still, like, we have a
36:57
seminary on a hill inside of Portland,
36:59
which was really fascinating. And so they said, what if we just
37:02
got professors to be able to talk through,
37:05
like, what are some of these challenges that we're facing alongside
37:08
the church? And how do you do that? Well, and it was
37:11
really fun because it ended up becoming this really
37:14
cool admissions piece too, where our
37:16
admissions team, when talking to students who were like, well,
37:19
I kind of want to get a feel for what's it like to be a student
37:22
there. It was like, hey, check out our podcast.
37:24
>> Loren: Yes.
37:25
>> Speaker D: Um, and so I feel like, yeah, just
37:27
infusing creativity with that
37:30
could be really cool. But going back to the piece
37:33
about, um, churches, when you
37:36
were saying, no longer is it, like, oh, 45
37:39
minutes to an hour of deep, rich theological
37:41
Study, um, the church that
37:44
my husband is currently serving in, they have even seen
37:47
themselves a trend of like, no longer is
37:50
it a standard practice for most
37:53
churchgoers to attend every single Sunday
37:56
month.
37:56
>> Loren: Right.
37:58
>> Speaker D: Our average that we're seeing is a lot of
38:00
people attend one or two Sundays
38:03
out of a month.
38:04
>> Loren: Mhm.
38:05
>> Speaker D: So then it's kind of taking even a further step
38:08
back. Um, yeah. Where you're like, okay,
38:11
things are shifting.
38:12
>> Loren: Yeah. I was recently talking to a UMC
38:15
denominational leader in Louisiana. He's saying like, his data
38:18
is like one out of every six weeks, which is just,
38:21
you know, it's not. I would have said once a
38:24
month. But I mean, one out of, uh, six weeks doesn't shock
38:27
me just because again, what we're seeing from
38:30
trends, I, uh, gotta give a shameless plug there. I guess
38:33
this too. Like, I do podcast producing. So
38:36
if you're, if you're seminary, another seminary wants to
38:39
get a podcast back in action, I can help
38:42
you. Shameless plug over.
38:44
Uh, last question here before we take a break.
38:47
What do you think we're not talking about
38:50
enough in theological education that we need to talk
38:53
about more?
38:54
>> Speaker D: Ooh, this, um, is
38:57
something that may just be like a personal piece for me
39:00
because I've worked a lot in marketing as
39:03
well, and I think it's poor digital
39:06
presence, um, where
39:08
a lot of theological education
39:11
is like 10 to 20 years
39:14
behind the times, digitally speaking.
39:17
And um, so then I think that's a
39:20
massive turnoff to students where,
39:23
um, there's clunky websites,
39:26
there's unclear admissions processes.
39:29
Um, sometimes when you get inside of
39:32
student portals, there's just a lot of
39:35
confusion of like, I'm sorry, how do I submit
39:37
a project? And so
39:40
that, that is something that I feel like
39:44
I understand the financial component to that,
39:47
which is why it's challenging to be able to change those things.
39:50
But I do feel like in today's day and culture,
39:52
it's something that uh, we need prioritize to be
39:55
able to meet the students where they're at and try to make it
39:58
as easy as possible for them to,
40:01
um, attend.
40:02
>> Loren: Well, I'm just glad you didn't say like a better social media presence.
40:06
Oh, maybe, maybe you're
40:09
thinking that. But I could, I could do
40:12
without like seminary posting regularly on
40:14
TikTok. Like I just. Right, that's another
40:17
conversation. Uh, I appreciate your.
40:20
>> Speaker D: You don't like faculty members doing TikTok dances?
40:22
>> Loren: You know, I don't. Maybe I'm just too snobby.
40:25
Like, I don't need My professor doing
40:28
TikTok dances. And I think maybe
40:31
I'm soapboxing here. But I think, you know, I
40:34
think some spaces, right, like, they just don't lend themselves
40:37
to like. I
40:39
remember five, seven years ago, I was starting a new church and
40:42
I. I bought this, like, social media advertising
40:45
planner for the church. And I quickly realized, like, this kind
40:48
of like, you know, you've been in marketing. Like, I kind of realized,
40:51
like, this kind of marketing vibe is not the kind of vibe that I want
40:54
from my church, you know?
40:57
So, uh, you know, you have some
41:00
marketing experience. I have some marketing experience. Like,
41:03
marketing can be like, oh, can be really ill
41:05
if it's not done with, I think, some
41:09
intentionality and integrity. Right, agreed.
41:11
>> Speaker D: Ah, absolutely. Both for churches
41:13
and seminaries and.
41:15
>> Loren: Yeah, right, right. Uh, well,
41:18
let's take a quick break here and let's come back with some
41:20
closing questions.
41:25
All right, we're back with Becca Buchterkirchen.
41:28
Great to have this conversation. Appreciate your time.
41:31
And, uh, I think I've gotten your name right both times, so
41:34
hopefully that was the case. Closing questions. You're
41:37
welcome to take these as seriously or not as you'd like to, but if
41:40
you're pope for a day, what
41:43
might that day look like for you?
41:45
>> Speaker D: Oh, I love that.
41:47
Um, I feel like two thoughts came
41:50
to mind and just based on where I'm at in
41:53
life, I'm like, oh, man, it would be so great to implement,
41:56
like, high quality, affordable childcare for
41:59
ministry families. Um, that would be
42:02
phenomenal. But thinking about it, just from a
42:05
fun, light hearted standpoint, I think it would be
42:08
awesome to host an, an epic barbecue
42:10
with lawn games on the Vatican lawn and
42:13
just be like, come one, come all,
42:16
let's. Let's get everyone together and have some fun.
42:20
>> Loren: Okay. That is fun. Yeah. Lawn
42:23
games. I like that. St. Peter's
42:25
Square. Like, I've never been there, but.
42:27
>> Speaker D: Right.
42:29
>> Loren: Just a bunch of lawn games. Some, you know,
42:32
smokers. Because. And I guess I have to clarify this. Like,
42:34
are we talking like hot dogs and hamburgers
42:37
cookout or are we talking barbecue, which is like meat.
42:41
Smoked barbecue.
42:42
>> Speaker D: Oh, uh, smoked meat.
42:43
>> Loren: Okay.
42:44
>> Speaker D: For sure.
42:44
>> Loren: Good.
42:45
>> Speaker D: Yep.
42:46
>> Loren: Um, I like that. That's
42:49
fun.
42:49
Okay. A theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want
42:52
to meet or bring back to life.
42:55
>> Speaker D: M. I think the first person that comes to
42:58
mind for me is Timothy, ah, Keller.
43:01
>> Loren: Okay.
43:01
>> Speaker D: I know he hasn't been gone for all that long, but
43:04
being a family that works in
43:06
ministry, I feel like he was such a
43:09
phenomenal example of being a pastor. Theologian.
43:13
And I also really appreciated
43:16
how he passed the baton. Well, he
43:19
didn't stay the senior pastor at
43:22
his church for forever, and he took a step
43:25
back, I felt like, at a great time,
43:28
and instead sought to, um,
43:31
raise up the next generation.
43:34
And for me, I'm just like, wow, I need more examples
43:37
like that. Um, in today's church.
43:39
>> Loren: What do you think about Tim Keller? When
43:42
I'm thinking about through the lens of. We've seen so many, like,
43:45
church leaders, whether it's moral failings, whether
43:48
it's narcissistic trips, whether
43:51
it's. I, uh, mean, obviously,
43:54
nobody's perfect. I'm sure Tim Keller has his
43:57
flaws. Certainly there's things that I disagreed with him about,
44:00
but I also recognize he's a very wise man.
44:04
Like, what do you think? What. What are some
44:07
traits that you think he showed that are worth
44:10
emphasizing, that are especially important for leaders today?
44:13
>> Speaker D: M. I feel like he showed up
44:16
remaining curious. He didn't strike me
44:19
as someone that was really prideful. I feel
44:22
like how he approached the scriptures was
44:25
with a willingness to. To say,
44:27
here's what I believe, but I could be wrong,
44:30
and to welcome different perspectives in
44:33
a way that I miss that.
44:35
Um, from what we're seeing in
44:38
today's context. Um, and I also liked that.
44:41
As far as I could tell, it seemed like
44:45
he didn't just covet the pulpit all by himself.
44:48
He wasn't the primary teacher 95%
44:51
of the time. And I think there's something to that.
44:54
Um, and I crave that in my own local church
44:57
setting of, like, I want to see different people,
45:00
um, sharing about their insights with who God
45:03
is.
45:03
>> Loren: Yeah, that's good. Uh, what do you think history will
45:06
remember from our current time and place?
45:09
>> Speaker D: Oof, man, that
45:12
one. That's so tricky. I.
45:15
I feel like it'll probably remember that we
45:18
lived in a time of, like, deep cultural
45:21
polarization and digital noise,
45:24
um, but that I feel like
45:27
a lot of people were quietly longing for something
45:30
deeper.
45:30
>> Loren: Yeah.
45:31
>> Speaker D: Um, and I can sense that
45:34
just seeing where things
45:37
are headed right now, it's like, you can see that there's a deep
45:40
level of sadness, but people don't know exactly what to do with
45:43
it.
45:43
>> Loren: All right, I've got to give another shout out then for my next guest,
45:46
Nandra Root, whose book is. And if you haven't read it, I
45:49
really recommend it. Evangelism in the Age of Despair.
45:53
>> Speaker D: Amazing.
45:53
>> Loren: And it's just basically that. That our world is
45:56
just deeply sad.
45:59
And, I mean, I think it's heartbroken. And I Think one of the
46:02
things that,
46:05
I mean, I think people are so. There's so many people who
46:08
are nihilistic to a point, and they're
46:10
hungering for something more, and they're. They're like,
46:15
they're chasing it in these
46:18
dangerous, you know,
46:21
dangerous patterns. So I don't
46:24
want to take too long on that. But, um,
46:27
yeah, appreciate you sharing that. Something more
46:30
positive. What are your hopes for the future of Christianity?
46:34
>> Speaker D: Yeah, I have a lot of hope that we would
46:37
learn to truly embody what it means to
46:40
love God and love others, and I think to
46:43
not get so caught up in who's wrong or who's right,
46:46
especially about secondary theological issues.
46:49
If there's anything about living in today's
46:52
cultural, uh, context that I'm sensing, it's like, you
46:55
know what? We need to go back to the basics and even
46:58
though it sounds so simple to preach the
47:01
gospel and to not get so sidelined about all of these
47:04
other things.
47:05
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. Well, share where folks
47:08
can connect with you and, um, reach out to you
47:11
if so desired.
47:12
>> Speaker D: Yeah. Uh, the best place to do that is at my
47:15
website, beccabuck.com. um, I have
47:18
a lot of ks in my name too, so. Ah, B E
47:21
K A H B U C K dot com.
47:24
And, uh, now I predominantly do a lot
47:27
of writing, um, speaking to moms who
47:30
are kind of in the trenches of motherhood, but still want to
47:33
pursue the Lord daily, even when they worry it's not
47:36
enough. So that's where they can find me.
47:39
>> Loren: Yeah. Awesome. Thank you so much for your time. I really
47:42
appreciate the conversation. Uh, we always leave folks
47:45
with a word of peace, so may God's peace be with you.
47:48
>> Speaker D: Oh, thank you. Well, I received that and thank you.
47:51
Likewise for having me. It was a wonderful discussion.
48:00
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
48:03
The Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
48:06
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with questions,
48:09
questions, comments, and ideas for future episodes.
48:12
Visit our website at, uh, future-christian.com
48:15
and find the Connect with Us form at the bottom of
48:18
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48:21
But before you go, do us a favor, subscribe to
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48:29
>> Loren: Thanks.
48:29
>> Loren Richmond: And go in PE.