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As I Lay Dying: Are Phonies Running the Christian Metal Scene? · DISGRACELAND

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This episode contains content that may be disturbing to some listeners.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Please check the show notes for more information. This is
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: a story about charlatans in the Christian metal community. It's
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: about the frontman of a prominent Christian metal band who
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: tried to hire a hitman to murder his wife. A
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: man who squandered a second chance and whose continued violent
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: and shocking transgressions were caught on camera. And this is
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: a story that's also about forgiveness. It's about redemption. It's
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: about losing your faith. And about whether or not an
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: entire music genre built upon faith is, in fact, now
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: populated by phonies. Because this is a story about Tim Lambesis,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: a notorious frontman from a Christian metal band called As
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: I Lay Dying. A band that I don't believe made
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: great music, but you might, and I'm not going to
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: judge you for it. Either way, it's not anything like
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: the music that I played for you at the top
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: of the show. That wasn't great music. That was a
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: preset loop from my Mellotron. called Jacked and Juiced MK1.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: I played you that loop because I can't afford the
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: rights to Just Give Me a Reason by Pink featuring
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Nate Reese. And why would I play you that specific
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: slice of strangely spelled Reese cheese? Could I afford it?
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Because that was the number one song in America on
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: May 7th, 2013. And that was the day that As
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: I Lay Dying frontman Tim Lambesis walked into a Burns &
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: Noble thinking he was hiring a hitman to murder his wife,
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: when in fact, he was walking into a San Diego
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Sheriff's Department sting operation. On this episode, fake hitmen and
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: phony Christians, second chances, lost faith, charlatans, and as I
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: lay dying. I'm Jake Brennan, and this is Disgraceland. In 2014,
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Tim Lambesis, frontman for the Christian metalcore band As I
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: Lay Dying, gave an interview to Alternative Press Magazine in
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: which he positioned himself as an unlikely whistleblower. Now, in
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: this interview, Lambesis made the claim that the Christian metal circuit,
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: the collection of bands whose Christian faith is a driving
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: force in their music and their identity, the scene that
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: As I Lay Dying had been part of for years
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: was nothing more than a fraud. In 12 years of
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: touring with As I Lay Dying, Lambesis said, I would
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: say maybe 1 in 10 Christian bands we toured with
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: were actually Christian bands. Lambesis even outed himself in this interview,
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: saying that he'd stepped away from Christianity years ago and
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: now identified as an atheist. So imagine that, an atheist
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: fronting one of the biggest Christian metalcore bands in the world.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: Was Tim Lambesis telling the truth? Is the Christian metal
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: scene full of phony Christians? I should mention that Tim
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: Lambesis gave this interview as he was about to be
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: sentenced for the very unchristian crime of attempting to hire
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: an undercover cop to murder his estranged wife, Megan Lambesis.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: You heard that right. Tim Lambesis thought he was hiring
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: a hitman to off his own wife, but instead found
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: himself caught up in a San Diego Sheriff's Department sting.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: solicitation of another to commit murder was the actual charge.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: But more on that in a minute. Back to this
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: interview with Alternative Press from 2014. In the interview, Tim
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: Lambesis alleges that he wasn't even the first member of
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: As I Lay Dying to lose his faith, that perhaps
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: at least two others had done so before him. He
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: says the band held meetings to discuss whether they should
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: continue the ruse to continue taking money from the Christian market,
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: as he puts it. And Lambesis also describes some awkward
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: moments with fans, Christian fans who would ask to pray
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: with him. Lambesis says he wouldn't actually pray along with him,
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: but that he'd let them think he was praying. He'd
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: say amen when they finished and all that. But in
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: the end, he was nothing more than a non-believer with
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: a shoulder to lean on and a dollar to make.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: So again, I ask you, was Tim Lambesis, a man
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: facing up to nine years in prison, telling the truth?
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: and is the Christian metal scene, which includes Lambesis' band,
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: As I Lay Dying, full of phony Christians. As I
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: Lay Dying stands as one of the most successful acts
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: in metalcore, an intense musical subgenre which fuses heavy metal
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: and hardcore punk rock. And though they are named for
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: the 1930 Southern Gothic novel of the same name by
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: William Faulkner, As I Lay Dying has nothing in common
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: with any work of classic literature. The San Diego-based group
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: went through some lineup changes early on, but by the
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: end of 2006, the year that Revolver magazine hailed Christian
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: Metal as the phenomenon of the year, As I Lay
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: Dying's lineup included Lambesis, drummer Jordan Mancino, bassist Josh Gilbert,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: and guitarists Nick Hippa and Phil Scoroso. In 2007, the
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: group's fourth studio album, An Ocean Between Us, released on
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: Metal Blade Records, peaked at number eight on the Billboard
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: album chart. That album's first single, Nothing Left, with its rapid-fire,
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: heart-pounding drums and squealing guitars, along with Lambesis' trademark guttural scream,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: was even nominated for a Grammy Award in the Best
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: Metal Performance category. The 2000s were a huge decade for
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: As I Lay Dying in particular and for the Christian
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: metal scene in general. Christian metal bands like P.O.D. and
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: Under Oath were crossing over into the mainstream, playing Ozfest
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: and The Warped Tour. Heaven's Metal, a fanzine for Christian
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: rock and culture, which had since changed its name to
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: simply HM, reverted back to its original, unambiguous name. It
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: was a validating moment for Christian Metal, and a hard-fought one, too,
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: because only years earlier, many fans had seen Christian Metal
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: as nothing but a joke. If you think about it,
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: the entire concept of Christian Metal itself seeks to reclaim
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: a style of music that was deemed satanic by many
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: in the church. In the 1980s, televangelists searched in vain
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: for evil backwards messages in the music of OG metal
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: bands like Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin. But also in
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: the 80s, one of the earliest mainstream Christian metal bands, Striper,
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: met with dirty looks from conventional metalheads rocking out to
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Motley Crue, Rat, and Dokken. Not me, though. I was
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: into Striper. And, you know, they're goofy. They had their
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: matching outfits and their They're, I don't know, I want
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: to say uncool songs, but I liked To Hell with
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: the Devil, okay? I just did. I think I liked
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: that whole yellow and black thing Striper had going on. Anyways,
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: by the end of the 20th century, the goofiness that
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: Striper seemed to embody had been driven out of the
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: Christian metal scene and replaced by darker, heavier vibes. Simultaneously,
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: Major mainstream rock bands who didn't outwardly market themselves as
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: Christian bands, bands like U2, were couching Christian imagery in
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: the themes of their music. So by the 2000s, this
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: whole thing, this whole Christian thing, this whole Christian scene
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  Speaker 1: blew open. The scene got larger and the scene had
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: hardcore fans. Fans who were fans because bands like As
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: I Lay Dying were Christian. That was the whole hook,
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: being Christian. But Tim Lambesis was living a lie. He
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: had long since lost his faith. He was not the
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: Christian he once was, and if he is to be believed,
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: neither were the other guys in his band. Still, as
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: I lay dying, carried on, crossing over, touring, not only
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: with other Christian metal luminaries like Demon Hunter, but also
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: with the likes of Motorhead, Anthrax, Slipknot, and Slayer. Make
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: that make sense. All the while, Lambesis kept his secret
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: close to his vest, so as not to lose the
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: good faith of the loyal Christian metal community. But faith
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: was in all Tim Lambesis had lost. By 2013, he
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: was separated from his wife, Megan. According to Lambesis, he
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: was not allowed to see the three young children he'd
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: adopted with Megan as often as he would like. And
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: then there was a looming divorce. Once that was finalized,
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: Lambesis would likely see even less of the kids while
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: being made to fork over up to 60% of his
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: income to his ex. If Tim Lambesis had still been
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: a believer, then this is when he would have fallen
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: to his knees, clasped his hands together, and asked God
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  Speaker 1: why he'd been forsaken. He may have even appealed to
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: God for guidance for a way out of this mess.
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  Speaker 1: But Tim Lambesis had no faith. He had no wife.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: He had no family. And a man who has lost
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: all that will do just about anything to avoid his
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: unwanted fate. Tim Lambesis walked confidently into the Barnes &
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Noble in Oceanside, California. Within seconds, he found the man
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  Speaker 1: he knew only as Red, even though he'd never laid
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: eyes on the guy. But Red looked exactly like what
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: Lambesis had been told to expect. Long beard, pierced ears,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: older and grizzled. Some real dyed-in-the-wool Southern California biker vibes.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: Red was a fixer. Red was a problem solver. Red
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  Speaker 1: was the guy who did the dirty work and got
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: paid handsomely for the pleasure. And to that end, Tim
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: Lambesis had $ 1, 000 in cash waiting in his Jeep out
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: in the parking lot as a down payment for what
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  Speaker 1: he was hiring Red to do. Kill his estranged wife, Megan.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: He got Red's contact info from someone at the gym.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: Lambesis had been asking around. He needed a trigger man.
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  Speaker 1: Someone who could go to her house, in and out
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: like a stiff breeze off the coast and make it
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: look like a robbery gone wrong. Finding someone was easier
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: than he thought and cheaper too. 20 grand all in.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: Red was a man of few words. He asked Lambesis
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: if he had the $ 1, 000 down payment. Lambesis nodded yes.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: He also had some photos, a description of Megan's vehicle,
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: her address, and the passcode to get inside her house.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: Lambesis was careful how he spoke. It was always a
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: one or gone. He didn't use words like murder or
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: kill because people listened and people talked. But outside, after
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: he'd retrieved a file folder from his black Jeep that
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: contained the money, the address, the code, all that, and
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: after he'd passed the folder off to Red, Lambesis couldn't
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: help himself. He was casually walking away when he stopped,
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: turned around, made sure no one else was nearby, and
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: then looked Red in the eye and said, Just to clarify,
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: just so you know, I want her dead. It was
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: May 7th, 2013, and that was the day that Tim
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Lambesis discovered that the man he knew as Red was
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: actually an undercover San Diego County Sheriff's deputy, who was
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: now placing the front man of the Christian metal band
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: As I Lay Dying under arrest for solicitation of another
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  Speaker 1: to commit murder. For attempting to hire an undercover cop
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: to murder his wife in 2014, Tim Lambesis was sentenced
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: to six years in a California prison. At his trial,
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: Claudia Grasso, a deputy San Diego district attorney, revealed that
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: Lambesis had sent emails to his wife, Megan, in which
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: he wrote that he no longer believed in God and
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: wanted to end their marriage. And in divorce papers, Megan
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: described a man who had become an irresponsible father, an
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: unfaithful husband, and a gym rat. who was more concerned
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: with bodybuilding than he was with his own family. Later,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: former 80s metal veteran and Dokken guitarist George Lynch, whose
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: daughter was engaged for a time to As I Lay
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: Dying guitarist Nick Hippa, would go so far as to
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: allege that Lambesis had gotten himself mixed up with, quote, cocaine, strippers, heroin,
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: and steroids, unquote. Lambesis' defense attorney did admit that steroid
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: use had clouded his client's judgment. But the same attorney
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: claimed that Lambesis never actually intended for Megan to be
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: harmed and that he had in some way been set
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: up by a third party who had reason to vilify him.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: I think it's pretty clear based on the evidence that
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Lambesis and Lambesis alone was behind this. I mean, the
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: sheriff's deputy posing as Red the hitman got their entire
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: interaction on tape. But whether or not steroids had, quote,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: clouded his judgment, unquote, Lambesis found himself at what he
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: thought was rock bottom, the lowest of lows. And there
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: at the bottom, about to be carted off to prison,
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: he had that moment of clarity that one can access
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: when they hit rock bottom. A moment in which Tim
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: Lambesis decided to reveal what he claimed to be the
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: truth about the Christian metal scene. But then his own
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: band went ahead and did the most Christian thing ever.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: Because when Tim Lambesis was released from prison in December 2016,
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: after serving less than half of his sentence, the rest
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: of As I Lay Dying forgave him, and the band
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: got back together. The comeback was polarizing, to say the least.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: The reception surrounding As I Lay Dying's 2019 album Shaped
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: by a Fire was Their first, since reuniting with their frontman,
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: Tim Lambesis, was anything but lukewarm. It was hot and
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: it was cold. It was either or. Either you were
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: psyched that this band was back, or you were pissed
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: that Lambesis wasn't still rotting in a cell. Either you
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: turned the other cheek, like the rest of the guys
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: in the band somehow managed to do, or you did
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: not forgive and you did not forget. And what about
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: the rest of the Christian metal community? What about the
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: scene that had nurtured As I Lay Dying from the start?
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: The same scene that Tim Lambesis had since called out
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: as phony. Disillusionment and disappointment went hand in hand. Many
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: media outlets refused to cover the album, but those that did,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: did so with goodwill. The online music magazine Loudwire named
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Shaped by Fire one of the year's 50 best metal albums. Commercially,
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: it did pretty well too, peaking at number 50 on
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: the Billboard 200. And number three on the Hard Rock
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Albums chart. Should we be surprised by this? Should we
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: be surprised that an album by a man who lost
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: his faith and tried to have his wife murdered was
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: positively received by a large number of critics and fans? No.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: Because people compartmentalize. People say, Tim Lambesis did something terrible,
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: but he's changed. And look, he got remarried while he
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: was incarcerated. Someone loves this guy, so he must be alright.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: People also mythologize. They say, Tim Lambesis did something terrible,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: and somehow that makes him even more rock and roll,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: and that's metal as fuck. And people love a redemption story.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: As in, Tim Lambesis did something terrible, but he has
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: seen the error of his ways, and he has overcome
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: his demons, and we love him more because of it. Besides,
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: Tim Lambesis was hardly the first rock star to do
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: something truly deplorable, only to be forgiven, even rewarded, by
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: his fans. In 1984, Motley Crue lead singer Vince Neil
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: drunkenly steered his Ford Pantera into oncoming traffic, crashing head-on
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: into two cars, leaving the driver of one of those cars,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: an 18-year-old girl with brain damage, and killing Neil's passenger,
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: Hanoi Rocks drummer Nicholas Dazzle Ringley. Three years later, Motley
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: Crue released their album Girls, Girls, Girls, which sold over
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: 4 million copies. In 1989, Ozzy Osbourne tried to strangle
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: his wife and manager, Sharon Osbourne, and was arrested for
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: attempted murder. Two years later, all was forgiven when he
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: released his acclaimed album No More Tears, one of the
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: biggest records of his career, which included the massive single Mama,
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: I'm Coming Home, and went on to go quadruple platinum.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: There was precedent for this sort of thing, just like
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Tim Lambesis set a new precedent when he talked about
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: the phoniness of the Christian metal scene. Because once that
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: was out there, a sense of doubt came creeping out
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: of the woodwork. And it was right in the pages
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: of Heaven's Metal Magazine, or HM Magazine. In a 2013
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: interview with the publication J.B. Brubaker of the Christian metalcore
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: band August Burns Red, talked about the baggage that came
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: with being labeled a Christian band. And how it put
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: you under the microscope. And how it sometimes feels like
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: people are just waiting for you to screw up so
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: they can call you out. In a 2016 interview with
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: the same magazine, Steve Cabucci of the band Wolves at
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: the Gate talked about the palpable shift happening in the
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: scene and how the Christian metal community was quickly becoming
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: perceived as disingenuous. Anti-Christianity, as he put it, was the
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: new cool. And in a 2017 interview with Heaven's Metal...
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: Tyler Riley of the band Gideon confessed that Christian circuits
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: and Christian music festivals were too limiting and that it
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: felt weird to be admired by a fan base that
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: admired you for your religious beliefs alone. As of 2019,
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: Gideon no longer identifies as a Christian band. And at
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: the end of the day, Tim Lambesis and As I
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: Lay Dying just wanted to continue as a band that
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: was judged and accepted on their own musical merit. not
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: because of their allegiance to any particular sub-genre or belief.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: Lambesis in particular stated that he wanted to make amends
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: where possible, express my remorse, and just put my energy
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: into something positive. But the dual controversies of Lambesis' words
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: and actions did not wash away as easily as some
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: other sins. These things clung to the band like a
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: noxious odor. As I Lay Dying were finding themselves lepers
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: not only in Christian metal circles... but in the mainstream
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: as well. Most notably, they were dropped from the wildly
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: popular Resurrection Fest, an annual music festival in Spain for
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: major metal, hardcore, and punk bands. And that's when members
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: of As I Lay Dying began dropping out too. In 2020,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: As I Lay Dying guitarist Nick Hippa left the band.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: It had been three years, give or take, since frontman
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Tim Lambesis had been released from prison. and one year
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: since the release of As I Lay Dying's Come Back Out. Then,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: just two years later in 2022, both bass player Josh
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: Gilbert and founding drummer Jordan Mancino also stepped down from
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: their roles in the band. And this left only Lambesis
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: and guitarist Phil Scroso in the band. It also left
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: many unanswered questions. Questions like, what the hell is going
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: on here? Why did the majority of As I Lay
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: Dying's lineup quit in such a short period of time?
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: And what did it have to do with their problematic frontman?
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Lambesis would soon hire replacements and keep As I Lay
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: Dying moving forward. Even still, this only created more questions
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: and more rumors. Rumors that Tim Lambesis' so-called redemption, how
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: he supposedly pulled himself up from a humiliating fall from grace...
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: It was all as phony as the Christian metal scene
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: that he once described. And the statements given by As
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: I Lay Dying's departed members would serve as a premonition
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: of sorts, a glimpse of the darkness that lay ahead
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: in the coming days and months. We'll be right back
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: after this word, word, word. When guitarist Nick Hippa parted
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: ways with As I Lay Dying in 2020, he posted
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: a long statement on Instagram, part of which read, Respectfully,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: I left because the story and meaning we built our
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: reunion upon decayed considerably over time. In 2022, when drummer
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Jordan Mancino left the band, he also took to Instagram, writing,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: There have been a number of ongoing internal issues with
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: As I Lay Dying that need to be worked out.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Tim Lambesis in the As I Lay Dying camp responded
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: publicly to Mancino's claims of internal issues by alleging that
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: for two years straight, Mancino had excommunicated himself from the
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: rest of the group and had been speaking with them
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: only through lawyers. Whether or not this is true, what
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: is true is that three of the five members of
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: As I Lay Dying walked away, leaving Lambesis and Phil
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Scroso behind. And if I'm putting money on who's the
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: issue here, I'm putting it on the one guy who
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: tried to have his wife murdered. Despite all this, Lambesis
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: managed to find other musicians who were willing to play
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: in this controversial group. Ryan Neff from the band Miss
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: May joined on bass, and guitarist Ken Soucy and drummer
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: Nick Pierce, both formerly of the band Unearthed, signed on
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: as well. Soon, as I lay dying, we're prepping a
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: new album and plotting a tour of Europe. But apostasy,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: loss of faith, continued to be a theme that resonated
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: within the ranks of As I Lay Dying. And I'm
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: not talking about Tim Lambesis' personal loss of faith. I'm
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: talking about the ongoing loss of faith that other members
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: of As I Lay Dying had with Tim Lambesis. It
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: was supposed to be another reset. Another shot at redemption's
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: shiny brass ring. It was the fall of 2024. and
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: As I Lay Dying had a largely new lineup. They
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: had a new album, Through Storms Ahead, scheduled for release,
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: and they had a new tour on the horizon. But
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: only weeks before the new album was even out, in October,
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: newcomer Ryan Neff quit. And then, just six days after that,
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: Ken Soucy and Nick Pierce also quit. And by the
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: end of the month, Phil Scorso, who had stayed in
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: the band through thick and thin with Lambisa all these years,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: finally threw in the towel as well. So what happened?
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: Nick Pierce said he felt compelled to distance himself from
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: the band, quote, in an effort to retain my personal
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: health and integrity, unquote. Ken Soucy said that his, quote,
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: morals had reached a, quote, breaking point. Personal health, integrity, morals,
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: a breaking point. This version of the band had barely
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: been together two years and they were imploding in dramatic fashion. Why? Why?
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: Rumors surfacing online speculated that allegations of domestic abuse against
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Tim Lambesis would soon break, and that this is likely
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: the straw that broke the camel's back when it came
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: to the loyalty of Lambesis' new band members. These rumors
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: were so loud that Lambesis' third and current wife, Dani Ciara,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: felt compelled to speak publicly on her Instagram. In a
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: post from October 24th, 2024, Dani wrote, I want to
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: make it unequivocally clear that these allegations are completely false.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: Danny Ciara's denial of domestic violence was taken at face
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: value for about a month until late November, 2024 around
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Thanksgiving when the videos began to leak online. Security camera
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: footage from inside the home of Tim Lambesis and Danny
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Ciara anonymously surfaced online near the end of 2024. And
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: what can be seen in these clips is pretty disturbing.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: In one video, which appears to take place on an
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: outdoor patio, Lambesis suddenly flips over the table that Danny
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: is sitting at. And as she walks away, Lambesis follows,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: grabs her, turns her around to face him, trapping her
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: in the corner of the patio. And this is the
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: crazy part. This huge muscle-bound man starts to repeatedly punch
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: himself in the head with both fists yelling, please love me,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: please love me over and over. In another video, The
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: couple appears to be in their bedroom. There's no sound
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: in this one, but a shirtless lambesis lunges at Danny,
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: who is sitting up in bed, and he appears to
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: violently pin her just outside the camera frame. And when
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: he lets her go, he jumps up, his body vibrating,
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: yelling at her before sitting back down on the bed,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: grabbing her face with his hands, and then, yes, once again,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: pummeling himself in the head with his fists. As the
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: metalcore community reacted online to what they were seeing, Tim
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: Lambesis defended himself by releasing his own statement. In this missive,
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: Lambesis claimed that he was the victim and that the
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: leaked videos were attempts at retaliation over his initiating a divorce.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: He further stated that a domestic violence investigation was being
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: launched not against him, but against his wife, Dani, and
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: that she had verbally and mentally abused him for years
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: and that he even had video evidence of Dani assaulting him.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Of course, none of this supposed evidence ever saw the
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: light of day, because there was no evidence to the contrary.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: But there was plenty more evidence to come in the
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: case against Tim Lambesis. In early 2025, another clip of
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: home security camera footage leaked, this time appearing to show
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Tim Lambesis abusing his wife's dog. As tens of thousands
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: of signatures were being collected for an online petition to
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: investigate Lambesis for animal abuse, his former bandmate Ken Soucy
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: appeared on a podcast called Brutally Speaking to talk about
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: another video. This particular video had been captured a while
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: back on a security camera at Ken Soucy's house, but
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: had been kept a secret until now. According to Soucy,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: this video is the reason why he and the rest
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: of As I Lay Dying quit the band. Because, as
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: Ken Soucy would allege, this video showed Tim Lambesis inside
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Soucy's house abusing his wife, Danny Sierra, by cornering her
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: and spitting in her face. Danny denied leaking any of
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: the videos online. In fact, she asked whoever was doing
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: so to stop. But she did use this opportunity to
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: finally walk back the previous statement she'd made in which
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: she had said, I want to make it unequivocally clear
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: that these allegations are completely false. Now it was time
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: for the truth. Once again, posting on Instagram, Dani alleged
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: that she had been coerced by Tim Lambesis and his
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: management into denying any allegations of abuse. The reason given
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: was to protect his career and public image. She said
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: she even had proof of this coercion. She also accused
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: Lambesis of intimidation and bribery and said, incredibly, that he
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: wanted her to sign an NDA as part of their
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: divorce so that she couldn't talk shit about him afterward. Which, clearly,
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: she did not sign because, just like Ken Soucy, Danny
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Sierra was talking. And the world was now seeing Tim
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: Lambesis for what he really was, which is to say,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: the thing he'd been all along. He could see it
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: so clearly now. It was as though the heavens parted
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: and the sun came shining through like rushing water overwhelms
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: a break in the dam. Standing before him, a reflection
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: of himself, looking back with empathy, looking at his double,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: looking at a man who had done a horrible thing.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: This reflection had the same topography of muscles and the
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: same jungle of tattoos, the same fire in his eyes.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Except this version was something he was not. This reflection
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: was one of a rehabilitated man, a man who'd made amends,
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: found peace, and been redeemed. Unlike this reflection, redemption for
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: him remained an oasis in the desert. So why was
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: he being shown this vision? To mock him, or to
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: give him strength to carry on? There were people who
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: would never forgive him, and there was nothing he could
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: do about that. But unless he wanted to lose everything,
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: He knew he had to do something, no matter how drastic.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: So he stole the reflection. He assumed its form and
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: told everyone it was actually him. That this was a chance. man.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: That even though he no longer subscribed to their faith,
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: they could have faith in him. But the ruse was weak,
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: and the reflection was something that only he could see.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: No one could see his redemption or his rehabilitation. All
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: anyone could see was what was beneath that false exterior.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: The man he truly was. A charlatan.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: When As I Lay Dying frontman Tim Lambesis confessed back
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: in 2014 that he had lost his faith and simultaneously
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: revealed that the Christian metal.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Scene was, so he said, made up of phony non-believers...
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: It took a lot of fans by surprise. Perhaps it
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: shouldn't have. After all, this is coming from a 30-something-year-old
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: man who was confined to his parents' house with a
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: GPS monitor stuck to his ankle, waiting to be sentenced
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: for trying to hire who he thought was a hitman
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: to murder his then-wife. Is it possible that Lambesis wanted
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: to stir up some shit as he was being taken
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: down and thus take everyone down with him? Misery-loving company,
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying? Well, of course that's possible,
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: but Listen, losing your faith, going through periods of great doubt,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: this is something that every believer goes through. Look up
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: the story of Thomas the Apostle in the Bible. Even
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: priests lose their faith. Martin Scorsese has made an entire
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: 50-plus year career out of this very subject. It's okay
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: to doubt because doubting is natural even amongst the most faithful.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: It's okay for your faith to become unsteady. And if
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: it's cool for a priest to lose his faith or
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: confront the lack of faith, it's cool for an entire
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: music community, a community like the Christian metal scene, to
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: question their faith as well. But that doesn't necessarily make
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: it phony or corrupt. What does make one phony or
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: corrupt is to be a fraud, F for fake, someone
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: who is willing to do anything in order to keep
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: themselves in the spotlight. Someone who will lie and cheat
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: and manipulate and distort the narrative so that it will
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: reflect favorably upon them. Which, as people such as Ken
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: Soucy and Danny Ciara have alleged, is exactly what Tim
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Lambesis has done. And that's not even the craziest part
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: of this story. It was December of 2025, and Tim
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Lambesis had managed to convince four new musicians to join
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: As I Lay Dying and head out on tour in
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: the new year Only this tour would take them to
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: one of the few places left in the world map
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: that would actually have them. Russia. And this is not
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: to say that Russia was the only place that would
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: book the infamous As I Lay Dying, but Russia is
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: where Lambesis and his new crew had chosen to make
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: their live debut two months earlier in October of 2025.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: And after a few shows in Slovenia, Italy, Austria, Germany,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: and the Netherlands... Russia is where they plan to return
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: for 10 dates in March of 2026. This was a
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: highly unorthodox move, not to mention a highly frowned upon move,
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: because ever since Russia's invasion of Ukraine, a large majority
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: of American and Western bands have deliberately avoided performing in
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: that country altogether. It was around the exact same time
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: that As I Lay Dying announced their return to Russia
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: that in December 2025 that Lambesis' ex-wife, Dani Ciara, appeared
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: as a guest on the Brutally Speaking podcast, the same
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: show that Ken Susie had appeared on months earlier. And
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: just like Ken Susie, Dani had a bombshell or two
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: to drop, which somehow turned out to be some of
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: the most insane revelations in this entire saga. At first,
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: she talks to host John Beatty about her whirlwind courtship
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: with Lambesis, the bliss of those first dates, how he
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: swept her off her feet, and how they married just
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: weeks after meeting. But only six months into their marriage,
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: as Danny tells it, Lambesis had been unfaithful. She describes
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: the day she found out as the worst day of
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: my life. And this led to arguments and violent outbursts
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: from Lambesis, which Danny attributed to his regular steroid use.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: Danny doesn't deny screaming at Lambesis during their arguments. This
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: was a guy who had cheated on his new wife
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: and she was pissed off about it and She had
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: every right to be pissed off and every right to
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: scream at him. But Danny alleges that Lambesis then took
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: that security camera footage of their fights, manipulated it by
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: removing the audio, and emailed the silent video clips to
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: the rest of the band, thinking that he could spin
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: the truth and convince everyone that she was verbally or
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: emotionally abusing him. When in reality, she was just calling
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: him out for being a shitty husband. Now, The weird
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: thing is that, as Danny tells it, Lambesis sent this
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: footage to the guys in As I Lay Dying using
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: some dummy email address so that it looked like it
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: was coming from a third party. How was this supposed
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: to help make Lambesis look innocent? I don't know. But
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: all it did was raise more flags because there was
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: no doubt in anyone's mind that the email came from
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: Tim Lambesis. According to Danny, he later admitted to sending
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: that email and said he's just trying to salvage his career.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: But one of the most fucked up accusations that Dani
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: makes during this nearly four-hour podcast interview about her ex-husband,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: Tim Lambesis, is something that she stumbled upon while trying
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: to find more evidence of his cheating and lies. She
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: tells the host that she discovered AI-generated porn on Lambesis' smartphone. Specifically,
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: as she puts it, a pic of a kid like
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: erect making out with an adult woman. She says finding
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: this made her feel disgusting and gross, and when she
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: confronted Lambesis about it, he denied it. Danny Sierra told
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: the Brutally Speaking podcast that she has proof of the
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: AI-generated pornography she found on Tim Lambesis' phone. I don't
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: need to see that, because... Whatever with that. I've seen
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: the leaked camera footage online of Tim Lambesis losing his shit,
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: violently flipping over furniture, grabbing his wife, beating his own
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: head with his fists, and kicking a dog. I've read
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: through the reports of his trial, which cover in great
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: detail the lengths he went to have his first wife,
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: the mother of his three children, murdered. I've listened to
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: the testimonies of people who witnessed his toxic behavior. People
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: like As I Lay Dying's Ken Soucy and Lambesis' third wife,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Dani Ciara. And I've heard what this abusive, manipulative person
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: has had to say about what he perceives to be
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: the phony state of Christian metal. I guess what I'm
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: saying is, I'm prepared to make a judgment about the man.
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: But I'm not prepared to judge the entire music scene.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: Because consider this. The biggest Christian metal story of this year, 2026,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: involves one of the bands that As I Lay Dying
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: used to tour with on the Christian metal circuit, Demon Hunter.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: They made headlines when they sued Netflix for trademark infringement,
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: among other things, over the streaming service's most watched film
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: of all time, K-pop Demon Hunters. In the lawsuit, the
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: band says that the title of the film has created
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: substantial confusion in the marketplace. People are buying tickets to
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: Demon Hunter shows, thinking they're going to see K-pop Demon Hunters,
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: and vice versa. Now, Demon Hunter, the Christian metal band,
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: doesn't want any confusion, substantial or otherwise, around who they are.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: This is a band that proudly wears their Christianity on
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: their sleeve. They're not ambiguous about their beliefs. They're not concerned,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: as Lambesis has stated in the past, that they will
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: lose fans by aligning with their faith and aligning as
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: standard bearers for the Christian metal scene. There's nothing phony
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: about Demon Hunter. And I'm not sure we can ever
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: say the same thing about Tim Lambesis and As I
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: Lay Dying ever again. And that's not necessarily because of
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: the music. or the music scene, it's because the man
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: is a disgrace. I'm Jake Brennan, and this is Disgraceland.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: All right, guys, thanks for checking out this episode of
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: Disgraceland on Tim Lambesis. And as I lay dying, what
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: do you guys think? The question I'm trying to answer
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: here is the Christian metal scene full of charlatans, a
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: bunch of phonies. You heard where I came down on this,
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: but I want to know what you think. I wonder
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: if you have any experience in this scene, especially. That's
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: what I'm most interested in. Have you gone to these shows?
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: Do you listen to these bands? Are you old school?
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Were you vibing on Striper back in the day? Are
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: you an As I Lay Dying fan? What do you
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: think of all this? Hit me up, 617-906-6638. Voicemail and text.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: You want to hear yourself on the next episode of
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: the After Party, our bonus episodes. Hit me up. You
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: can also email me, disgracelandpod at gmail.com. Hit me on
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: the socials at disgracelandpod. Here comes some credits. Disgraceland was
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: created by yours truly and is produced in partnership with
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: Double Elvis, The Exactly Right Network, and iHeart Podcast. Credits
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: for this episode can be found on the show notes
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: page at disgracelandpod.com. If you're listening as a Disgraceland All
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: Access member, thank you for supporting the show. We really
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: appreciate it. And if not, you can become a member
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: right now by going to disgracelandpod.com slash membership. Members can
• 39:36
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• 39:40
  Speaker 1: the show and follow us on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, and
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: Facebook at disgracelandpod and on YouTube at youtube.com slash at disgracelandpod. Rock-a-rola.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: He's a bad, bad man.