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Train-Stab Victim Iryna Zarutska's Alleged Killer Deemed Incompetent For Trial · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace in a shock development, the
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Speaker 1: murder suspect to Carlos Brown, accused of murdering a beautiful
0:15
Speaker 1: Ukrainian woman, Arena Zeruska on a train, it is now
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Speaker 1: announced he cannot stand trial for the murder. What I
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Speaker 1: Meancy Grace? This is Crime Stories. I want to thank
0:31
Speaker 1: you for being with us. As you will recall. A
0:35
Speaker 1: North Carolina man accused in the brutal stabbing death of
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Speaker 1: a gorgeous Ukrainian refugee, Arena Zerutska. It was all caught
0:45
Speaker 1: on camera on a light rail vehicle on a light
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Speaker 1: rail train in North Carolina, now escapes trial. Attorneys Ford
0:56
Speaker 1: Carlos Brown Junior said his trial should be called off
1:01
Speaker 1: following an evaluation by a psychiatrist. Let's refresh our recollections
1:09
Speaker 1: as to what happened to Arena. Nine to one one
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Speaker 1: audio the train stabbing victim, Irena reveals her final desperate
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Speaker 1: moments and what is described by witnesses as a bloody
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Speaker 1: and hopeless scene. Can anybody say death penalty? I means
1:36
Speaker 1: he Grace, this is Crime Stories. I want to thank
1:38
Speaker 1: you for being with us. Why did Arena have to die?
1:52
Speaker 1: Stabbed dead? On public transportation.
1:57
Speaker 2: You said a mail down and reinvented a.
2:02
Speaker 3: Completely.
2:03
Speaker 1: I mean, the community still reeling. Now, what makes this
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Speaker 1: murder different from other murders. I'm about to play you
2:14
Speaker 1: that newly released to audio, and I've got to warn
2:17
Speaker 1: you up front, it's very, very disturbing. Straight out to
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Speaker 1: veteran trial lawyer who represents a lot of high profile clients.
2:26
Speaker 1: Randy Kessler, h Emory Law School professor, former chair ABA
2:31
Speaker 1: Family Law Section, author of Divorce, Protect Yourself, Your Kids,
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Speaker 1: in your Future. Kessler, this case is a death penalty
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Speaker 1: case because the aggravating circumstance is the murder, according to
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Speaker 1: the state, occurred on mass transit and a nutshell, Okay,
2:52
Speaker 1: you're not delivering a speech the ABA. Why is that
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Speaker 1: an aggravating circumstance? Randy Kessler.
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Speaker 4: That's all they needed is so pass the threshold, and
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Speaker 4: in the law they're allowed to ask for the death
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Speaker 4: penalty because it's on public transportation. But the sympathetic factor
3:09
Speaker 4: nobody wants this guy around. They're going to get a
3:11
Speaker 4: good shot at the death penalty. All they needed was
3:13
Speaker 4: the avenue to get in. They've got it because it's
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Speaker 4: public transportation that authorizes the death penalty.
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Speaker 1: Ass Okay, you do know what you just did, right?
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Speaker 1: Put Kessler up. That is not working. I said, why
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Speaker 1: is it a death penalty because it's on mass transit?
3:27
Speaker 1: And you say, like three times it's death penalty because
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Speaker 1: it's on mass transit. That's not an answer. You just
3:33
Speaker 1: regurgitated my question. But you did it beautifully. And now
3:36
Speaker 1: I see why you win so many cases and snow
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Speaker 1: appellate court judges. I hope they're not watching right now
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Speaker 1: for your sake. Mass transit killings are dp death penalty
3:48
Speaker 1: because much like a titular murder where a governor or
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Speaker 1: a senator or a president a judge is killed, it's
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Speaker 1: not just the individual, it's what they represent. That's why
4:04
Speaker 1: that or police officer, that's why those are death penalty cases.
4:08
Speaker 1: This is a am I actually quean ang with myself, Castler,
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Speaker 1: this is a death penalty case mass transit because it's
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Speaker 1: what it represents, mass transmit government. It's going to get
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Speaker 1: on a bus or a train. If this guy's walking
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Speaker 1: free with a bloody knife.
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Speaker 4: Well that's the reason for the death penalty. You want
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Speaker 4: to find the case is where a death penalty is
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Speaker 4: really going to have a chilling effect. Hopefully it's going
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Speaker 4: to scare other people. But the problem is Nancy, nobody's
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Speaker 4: going to not kill somebody because they might get death
4:38
Speaker 4: instead of life in prison.
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Speaker 5: To me, it should be death penalty because jury wants it.
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Speaker 1: Really, because I don't want old Sparky, I don't want
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Speaker 1: the needle and now the firing squad. Well, long story short,
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Speaker 1: that is why this is a death penalty case. Because
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Speaker 1: Irena was murdered on mass transit, which is an arm
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Speaker 1: of the government. There's a renner right now. And because
5:04
Speaker 1: it creates chaos when citizens are afraid to step on
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Speaker 1: a bus. Kay us. That is why this is a
5:15
Speaker 1: death penalty case. But I want to get back. This
5:18
Speaker 1: is something that Kessler loves and hates when a nine
5:22
Speaker 1: to one one audio is played in front of a jury.
5:27
Speaker 1: Why do you hate that so much? Kessler? Because I
5:29
Speaker 1: love it and.
5:30
Speaker 5: They say it.
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Speaker 4: Picture's worth a thousand words and audio is worth ten
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Speaker 4: thousand words. There's no way to unwring that bill.
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Speaker 5: Period. Jury hears that that equals conviction.
5:38
Speaker 1: Let's take a listen and see if he's right.
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Speaker 6: Listen, carlon nine one one, you need to fire he
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Speaker 6: said a mail stout one for no reason?
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Speaker 3: Did any Medican County fire? What does the for the emergency?
6:02
Speaker 3: What is this?
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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, Kessler, you're right, this man calling nine one one.
6:15
Speaker 1: What he observed makes a grown man cry. He's crying, Kessler,
6:21
Speaker 1: how do you think the jury's going to react to that?
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Speaker 4: He is the jury. The jury sees themselves in him.
6:26
Speaker 4: That's the that's the whole point of the audio. You
6:28
Speaker 4: can sympathize, empathize, whatever the word is. You see yourself
6:32
Speaker 4: and you don't ever want to be in his position.
6:34
Speaker 4: You don't ever want to witness that. You don't even
6:35
Speaker 4: want to experience it, and you don't want to love
6:37
Speaker 4: when to experience it, and you feel it, it's emotionally draining,
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Speaker 4: It hits you right here.
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Speaker 5: That's that's a conviction. That audio equals conviction.
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Speaker 1: To me, I want to hear that one. I'm going
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Speaker 1: to go to the next, the next nine on one,
6:51
Speaker 1: but I want to hear that one more time. We're
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Speaker 1: hearing a grown man witness breaking down in tears over
6:58
Speaker 1: what just happened to Irina. Listen, one police fire? He said,
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Speaker 1: a mail stout one for no reason?
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Speaker 5: Did any.
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Speaker 7: Medican County fire?
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Speaker 5: What is the address for the emergency.
7:23
Speaker 3: What is this? We'll stay.
7:31
Speaker 1: With me, renowned forensic psychologist, TV radio trauma expert consultant.
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Speaker 1: It's Karen Stark at Karenstark dot com. Karen, thank you
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Speaker 1: for being with us. The man is in tears. The
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Speaker 1: man is crying and he says I was standing right
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Speaker 1: beside her. He's going to have those nightmares the rest
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Speaker 1: of his life.
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Speaker 8: Without a doubt, Nancy, that trauma, terrible trauma, because just imagine.
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Speaker 8: I want everyone to imagine being the are on a train,
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Speaker 8: innocently going wherever you're going, and then you see somebody
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Speaker 8: being slept for no reason.
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Speaker 1: No, my stars, Look, Karen, Karen Stark, do you see
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Speaker 1: the video? The guy is walking around here, he is,
8:17
Speaker 1: he's about to stand up. He's fumbling in his pocket
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Speaker 1: for his knife. Plenty of time to form intent. You
8:22
Speaker 1: see what's on the do you see what's on the floor.
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Speaker 1: He's wandering around with a knife dripping with blood. I
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Speaker 1: guess the nine to one caller is traumatized, Karen Stark.
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Speaker 8: Without a doubt, Absolutely, Nancy.
8:39
Speaker 1: How could you not be.
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Speaker 8: I think everyone who witnessed that would be traumatized. How
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Speaker 8: many people see something like that instantly riding.
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Speaker 9: On a train.
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Speaker 1: Hopefully none, guys, we have just obtained the newly released
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Speaker 1: nine to one one calls.
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Speaker 6: Listen right now on the ground with a lot of blood,
9:00
Speaker 6: and everybody's bringing that she got stabbed. And I don't
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Speaker 6: know if anybody called that one.
9:04
Speaker 3: People are freaking out.
9:06
Speaker 2: I want to do some more information.
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Speaker 6: Yeah, she's on the train. She's on the train, she's
9:15
Speaker 6: on the ground right now. There's people around her right now.
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Speaker 6: I think they're holding pressure on this site.
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Speaker 1: There's a lot of luck joining us Doctor Thomas Coin,
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Speaker 1: chief Medical Examiner District to Medical Examiner's Office, State of Florida.
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Speaker 1: And never like a business there pathologists to psychologists and neuropathologist.
9:34
Speaker 1: It goes on and on, doctor Coin. Thank you for
9:39
Speaker 1: being with us. What what what are they trying? Medic
9:42
Speaker 1: is trying to explain what's happening? What's happening?
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Speaker 3: Sure?
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Speaker 7: So, I mean from watching the horrible video, you can
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Speaker 7: see that the stab wom was likely to the next just.
9:53
Speaker 3: Around the collarbone area, and in that area you have
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Speaker 3: several major arteries.
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Speaker 7: If the blade is long enough to you certainly have
10:01
Speaker 7: cut the aorta or some of the branches of the aorta,
10:03
Speaker 7: including the carotid artery. Those vessels carry blood about a
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Speaker 7: half a leader to three quarters of a leader per.
10:11
Speaker 3: Minute, So if you can imagine, if that vessyl is.
10:13
Speaker 7: Cut, you can bleed out probably half of your total blood.
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Speaker 3: Volume in less than about a two minute period.
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Speaker 7: So what they're trying to do is put pressure on
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Speaker 7: that area, or at least the hopes they're trying to
10:24
Speaker 7: put pressure on that area to stop the bleeding, but
10:27
Speaker 7: very hard to put pressure on that area because it's
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Speaker 7: your neck, the collarbones in the way, so it's hard
10:32
Speaker 7: to actually stop the blood from splurting out. It's most
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Speaker 7: times these wounds are fatal. It's almost impossible to get
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Speaker 7: this person to the hospital in time.
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Speaker 1: You said you can lose half your blood in less
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Speaker 1: than two minutes.
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Speaker 7: Yes, because blood flow here. These vessels carry blood at
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Speaker 7: high volume and fast rate, and so when you cut
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Speaker 7: that blood vessel, it will spurt out. Every time the
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Speaker 7: heart beats, blood will spurred out, and yes, you could
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Speaker 7: lose you know, a couple of liters of blood within
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Speaker 7: a couple of minute.
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Speaker 3: Windows small, a very small window of time.
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Speaker 1: Guys, I want to hear the tone that the medic
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Speaker 1: has in the nine to one one call. Listen to
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Speaker 1: the medic.
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Speaker 5: There's just a.
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Speaker 6: Lady right now on the ground with a lot of blood,
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Speaker 6: and everybody's springing that she got stabbed.
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Speaker 3: And I don't know if anybody's called that one. People
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Speaker 3: are just freaking out. I want to do some more information.
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Speaker 6: Yeah, she's on the train. She's on the train. She's
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Speaker 6: on the ground right now. There's people around her right now.
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Speaker 6: I think they're holding pressure on this website.
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Speaker 1: There's a lot of blood and doctor Thomas Coin, uh,
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Speaker 1: you're our only medical doctor today. I hear resignation. I
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Speaker 1: hear resignation. The medic's not going hurry, hurry, Harry, get here,
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Speaker 1: hurry hurry. It's like she's on the ground, she's she's
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Speaker 1: a lot of blood. They know, don't they, Doctor Coin?
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Speaker 1: Have you ever felt that when you're trying your best
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Speaker 1: to save a patient and you know there's just nothing
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Speaker 1: you can do, but you're trying anyway.
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Speaker 7: During my earlier early years of training, yeah, and especially
12:13
Speaker 7: in the trauma centers of the hospital where you have
12:16
Speaker 7: you know the injury is most likely fatal, but you're
12:19
Speaker 7: doing everything you can just to keep that patient alive,
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Speaker 7: and when you have an injury like this and you've
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Speaker 7: lost so much blood, it's almost impossible to get in
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Speaker 7: there and repair it in time to save the patient.
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Speaker 3: It's just it's a horrible experience.
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Speaker 1: I know that all of the newly released nine one
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Speaker 1: one audio is upsetting, but to me, this one with
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Speaker 1: the medic made me the most upset, because you know,
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Speaker 1: when you're in a crisis situation, a lot of people,
12:52
Speaker 1: including me, just power through it, and it's only after
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Speaker 1: it's over that you think, oh, my stars, I nearly
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Speaker 1: a X, or she nearly X was hit by a car,
13:04
Speaker 1: or fell off the tree, or it's after it's over
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Speaker 1: that you have a sigh of relief. But here I
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Speaker 1: hear the resignation in the medic's voice.
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Speaker 6: Listen, there's just a lady right now on the ground
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Speaker 6: with a lot of blood, and everybody's springing that she
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Speaker 6: got stabbed.
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Speaker 3: And I don't know if anybody's called on one yet.
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Speaker 3: People are just freaking out. I want to information.
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Speaker 6: Yeah, she's on the train, she's on the train, she's
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Speaker 6: on the ground right now. There's people around her right now.
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Speaker 6: I think they're holding pressure on this one.
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Speaker 1: There's a lot of blood, Sharon start. That was the
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Speaker 1: most upsetting part of all the nine one one. We're
13:51
Speaker 1: about to play.
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Speaker 8: Well because you hear it in her voice when she sighs. Nancy.
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Speaker 8: But I also want to point out and watching that
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Speaker 8: video that Dwayne is suffering. It's not that he stabs
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Speaker 8: her and she doesn't know what's going on. You can
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Speaker 8: very clearly see the horror on her face, the pine
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Speaker 8: and the fact that she's suffering, hold in her mouth
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Speaker 8: before she balls down and ultimately done.
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Speaker 1: You're right, Karen, she's looking down. She's looking down. She
14:24
Speaker 1: looked down at her stab. You're right, Karen, she's just oh,
14:31
Speaker 1: she's dying right in front of us. Here's more of
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Speaker 1: the nine on one calls the person who no, I
14:42
Speaker 1: did not.
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Speaker 6: We were on a different train, park down the road
14:46
Speaker 6: line and this is a very cloud train car. I
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Speaker 6: think the person move on to.
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Speaker 3: Believe. We're now confident that she's got it.
15:04
Speaker 10: I'm not.
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Speaker 6: There's a lot of people around her that they're all
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Speaker 6: saying the pupils are blown out and there's no pull.
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Speaker 1: Back to Dodger Thomas Coin two things, what does that mean?
15:16
Speaker 1: Stamped in the carotid and the pupils are blown out.
15:21
Speaker 1: Whoever this is seems to have medical training. What does
15:24
Speaker 1: that mean?
15:24
Speaker 3: Yeah?
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Speaker 7: Sure, So the carotid artery is that is the main
15:28
Speaker 7: artery that that supplies blood to our brain, So it
15:31
Speaker 7: travels within our neck along the lateral sides of our neck.
15:34
Speaker 7: It's where like you'd feel your pulse if you put
15:36
Speaker 7: your fingers on your neck. That that's the carotid artery.
15:39
Speaker 1: Uh.
15:40
Speaker 7: And it's one of the arteries that this certainly could
15:42
Speaker 7: have cut in that area of her neck, and it
15:45
Speaker 7: will pump a high volume of blood out.
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Speaker 3: Of the body if cut.
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Speaker 7: The pupils being blown just likely indicates that she's lost
15:53
Speaker 7: normal neurologic function.
15:54
Speaker 3: I mean, as you can imagine, if those.
15:56
Speaker 7: Arteries are cut, the blood supply to her brain has
15:59
Speaker 7: been separate, and so within probably less than a minute's time,
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Speaker 7: her brain's not getting the oxygen or blood flow it needs,
16:05
Speaker 7: and therefore, you know, her brain's not being responsive. So
16:08
Speaker 7: her pupils are blown, her her cranial nerves and her
16:11
Speaker 7: brainstem are not working like they should, and those just
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Speaker 7: simply really speak to her her dire situation.
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Speaker 1: Randy Kessler, a veteran trial lawyer, out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Randy,
16:23
Speaker 1: I know you're looking at the video right now. You
16:27
Speaker 1: do see the suspect changing clothes, getting rid of his
16:34
Speaker 1: bloody clothes. Isn't it true, Kessler, that the jury can
16:40
Speaker 1: consider behavior before, during, and after the crime to determine guilt.
16:48
Speaker 1: The guys getting rid of his bloody clothes before he
16:51
Speaker 1: steps off the train. That indicates he knows there'll be
16:54
Speaker 1: a problem if it goes out on that platform covered
16:57
Speaker 1: in blood.
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Speaker 4: Right, personally, this probably goes more to the sentencing. Right
17:03
Speaker 4: in normal cases at flight, if you're leaving a scene,
17:05
Speaker 4: you're trying to get away, you're trying to escape, you're
17:07
Speaker 4: trying to hide.
17:08
Speaker 5: That shows you did something wrong. You're trying to get away.
17:11
Speaker 5: In this case, we know he didn't. We've got him.
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Speaker 1: Gert E double l n oh. I spelled it out
17:17
Speaker 1: for you. That can be used as evidence of guilt,
17:22
Speaker 1: of course, But what I'm telling you, Generations, it was
17:26
Speaker 1: actually a jury charge that the general would give the
17:30
Speaker 1: jury somehow that a fastbar got rid of that. But
17:33
Speaker 1: the jury can consider that as evidence of guilt. Right,
17:38
Speaker 1: we're trying to get his bloody shirt. That's not sentiencing No,
17:42
Speaker 1: but you don't.
17:42
Speaker 5: You're right, Nancy, But you don't leave with that. You
17:44
Speaker 5: don't leave with Look, he's covering it up.
17:45
Speaker 4: When you got a video of him actually stabbing her,
17:48
Speaker 4: you don't need to start with Hey, he was trying
17:50
Speaker 4: to cover it up. You got him dead rights on
17:52
Speaker 4: the conviction. That's going to go further too. Wasn't mentally insane,
17:56
Speaker 4: He knew that what he did was wrong. Takes away
17:59
Speaker 4: the insanity. Did the fire takes really any excuse for
18:01
Speaker 4: why he did this other thing?
18:03
Speaker 1: Were you drinking?
18:04
Speaker 5: What?
18:05
Speaker 1: I mean, what you drinking? Smoking? I was going to
18:10
Speaker 1: leave with guilty conscience, leave with that video and the
18:14
Speaker 1: nine one one calls. That's the stay strongest evidence. I
18:18
Speaker 1: would go with the video that I'm on calls, and
18:20
Speaker 1: then the witnesses, every single person sitting in that tren car,
18:24
Speaker 1: even though they didn't help, which they're going to get
18:26
Speaker 1: cross examined on. Yes, that's just what I need. And
18:30
Speaker 1: I'd bring on doctor Thomas Coin, and then I would
18:32
Speaker 1: bring on Ron Bateman, and then I would bring on
18:34
Speaker 1: Andy Kahn, and then I would bring on Susan Hendricks.
18:37
Speaker 1: Just like that, but evince of guilty conscience. That's the
18:41
Speaker 1: last thing I bring on, But you darn right I'll
18:43
Speaker 1: bring it on.
18:44
Speaker 5: Sure it is piling on, and it's icing on the cake.
18:47
Speaker 5: It's extra, but really you don't need it.
18:49
Speaker 4: That's why I think it goes more towards sentencing, because
18:52
Speaker 4: is there a question that there's any reason why this
18:54
Speaker 4: guy should be given any breaks? No, he knew what
18:57
Speaker 4: he did was wrong. That's what that does for me.
18:59
Speaker 4: It doesn't help. You don't need it for the conviction.
19:01
Speaker 4: I mean, sooner or later, it's going to be overkill.
19:03
Speaker 4: You got him dead's rights. He's guilty of the crime.
19:06
Speaker 4: Now what do we do about it?
19:08
Speaker 2: Death?
19:08
Speaker 1: Because he knew he can't help himself. I can't, Kessler.
19:13
Speaker 1: I love it when defense attorney starts saying it's overkill.
19:17
Speaker 1: Stop you're piling on. Isn't it true? The state has
19:21
Speaker 1: one swing at the ball. If there's an MG not
19:25
Speaker 1: guilty your technical legal phrase, screwed, you have one chance.
19:32
Speaker 1: Why not put on all your evidence. When a defensive
19:35
Speaker 1: attorney starts squealing and whining overkill, piling on, that's when
19:41
Speaker 1: I really dig in.
19:43
Speaker 4: You can use it, you can add it, but again,
19:45
Speaker 4: it's not my emphasis. The emphasis is on the act,
19:48
Speaker 4: the actual crime. Sometimes you don't have the photographic or
19:51
Speaker 4: the videographic evidence of the killing and the murder of
19:54
Speaker 4: the crime, so that's more important. In this case, I'm
19:56
Speaker 4: just saying it's much less important than actually what happened,
20:00
Speaker 4: and what happened is terrible.
20:01
Speaker 5: It's on video. He's done, he's convicted.
20:04
Speaker 3: That is.
20:05
Speaker 5: It is overkill. It is extra Sure you use it, Nancy,
20:08
Speaker 5: throw it in there.
20:08
Speaker 4: But I would say to the jury, we're gonna show
20:11
Speaker 4: you this, but you don't really even need it because
20:12
Speaker 4: you've already got enough to convict him.
20:15
Speaker 5: But just in case there was any doubt.
20:16
Speaker 1: You're really not helping the defense right now. You know that,
20:20
Speaker 1: right You're really not explain for the defense.
20:22
Speaker 5: I'm just trying to explain it for the audience.
20:24
Speaker 1: I've got something for you, Cassler. All right, you ready,
20:28
Speaker 1: I don't know more nine to one one. Let's take
20:32
Speaker 1: a listen to the newly released audio.
20:35
Speaker 2: I think I'm here, man, I think the girl might
20:37
Speaker 2: be here, man, the guy there's and the guy over
20:43
Speaker 2: here on the round. Yeah, he was on all the platform.
20:45
Speaker 2: He's a black male dreadlog. You got a hand wrapped
20:48
Speaker 2: up in a red jacket, a black teacher, because it
20:51
Speaker 2: was hanging over not.
20:53
Speaker 1: Anymore, he doesn't. Let's see that video of him changing clothes.
21:02
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. De Carlos Brown's lawyer, Daniel
21:10
Speaker 1: Roberts said the murder suspect has undergone a capacity evaluation
21:16
Speaker 1: and he failed, leading the defense psychiatrist to determine De
21:21
Speaker 1: Carlos Brown is unfit to face murder charges. What happened
21:27
Speaker 1: to Arena Susan Henry's joining US investigative journalist, author of
21:32
Speaker 1: Down the Hill My descend into the double murder in Delphi?
21:36
Speaker 1: Susan the nine woman caller, another one of them. You
21:42
Speaker 1: know a lot of the people on the train, which
21:45
Speaker 1: totally is totally reprehensible. They don't even try to help her.
21:50
Speaker 1: They start videoing her dying. What a bunch of googles. However, Yeah,
21:58
Speaker 1: go on a video that I guess he posted it.
22:02
Speaker 1: Long story short, Several people did call nine one one,
22:06
Speaker 1: and this last call we played describes the defendant. He
22:12
Speaker 1: was standing on the rent. Now he's on another platform, dreadlocks.
22:16
Speaker 1: He's got his hand wrapped in a red jacket because
22:20
Speaker 1: he cut his hand, a black T shirt he's got
22:26
Speaker 1: on blue jeans, black T shirt, hand wrapped up dreads.
22:31
Speaker 1: We've got him on video changing clothes and there he goes. Guys,
22:36
Speaker 1: this is newly released video, and there he goes walking
22:43
Speaker 1: off like nothing happened. Susan Hendrix, what's happening in the
22:46
Speaker 1: video right here that we're showing.
22:49
Speaker 11: We're seeing the police move in on this guy and
22:52
Speaker 11: make the arrest, Nancy. It's so disturbing. I watched that
22:55
Speaker 11: entire video this morning. To a step quickly three times
22:59
Speaker 11: in the neck. And you mentioned it earlier, that look
23:01
Speaker 11: of horror. She's looking down, probably is realizing what is
23:05
Speaker 11: happening to her. She's dying before very eyes. What you're
23:08
Speaker 11: looking at now is the police move in and that
23:10
Speaker 11: last nine one one call, Nancy. You hear him say,
23:13
Speaker 11: no police presence, where is everyone? He's panicked too, and
23:17
Speaker 11: I believe she falls over and dies before her very
23:20
Speaker 11: eyes on that video.
23:21
Speaker 1: That is huge.
23:22
Speaker 5: That of course is what they playing port.
23:24
Speaker 12: But you're looking at the arrest of the video we
23:27
Speaker 12: just saw.
23:28
Speaker 2: I think I'm here, man, I pay the girl might
23:30
Speaker 2: be there, man, the poet person, the guy over there's
23:33
Speaker 2: no hole represent and the guy is he is standing
23:35
Speaker 2: over here on the round. Yeah, he's on on the platform.
23:38
Speaker 2: Either he's a black male dread loss. He got his
23:41
Speaker 2: hand wrapped up in a red jacket, a black teacher
23:43
Speaker 2: because the players like hanging out attaining. He got dread loge.
23:47
Speaker 2: He got on a blue dreams the black teacher and
23:49
Speaker 2: the hands wrapped up. He got LAUNDERI and the woman
23:52
Speaker 2: anywhere or is he no? He got a black teacher
23:56
Speaker 2: on the hoodies repper entertaining, okay.
24:01
Speaker 6: Leading right now on the ground with a lot of
24:03
Speaker 6: bloody bringing the new up staff.
24:05
Speaker 11: That's when he got up and he subsequently stabbed her
24:09
Speaker 11: three times.
24:10
Speaker 3: He's on the ground right now.
24:11
Speaker 2: There's people around there.
24:13
Speaker 6: I think they're pulling a pressure off.
24:15
Speaker 2: Heard a lot of blood.
24:18
Speaker 1: We just endured the Charlie Kirk murder. And whether you
24:25
Speaker 1: agree with him or disagree with him, whether you like
24:28
Speaker 1: him or hate him, it doesn't matter. He was murdered.
24:34
Speaker 1: Do you recall the suspect jumped down off the roof
24:39
Speaker 1: and took off and tried to blend in and he
24:42
Speaker 1: did blend him with all the other students his age.
24:46
Speaker 1: Same thing here. I want you to take a look
24:49
Speaker 1: as we're playing that nine to one one call one
24:52
Speaker 1: of them at the defendant just mosying off. Okay, listen, it.
25:00
Speaker 2: Might be dead man, the five persons guy over there's
25:03
Speaker 2: no police presidence. And the guy that he was standing
25:05
Speaker 2: over here on the round, Yeah, he was on the
25:07
Speaker 2: other platform.
25:08
Speaker 3: He's a black male.
25:09
Speaker 2: Dread loss. He got his hand wrapped up in a
25:11
Speaker 2: red jacket, a black teacher because his players like hanging
25:15
Speaker 2: off the taining. He got dread loge. He got on
25:17
Speaker 2: a blue dreams the black teacher and the hands wrapped up.
25:20
Speaker 2: He got laundry anywhere or is he no? He got
25:25
Speaker 2: a black teacher on. He's the hoodies wrapping undertaind.
25:30
Speaker 1: Okay, and what do I want you to look at?
25:33
Speaker 1: Let's see the video place of him getting off the
25:36
Speaker 1: train and just calmly walking away, much as Tyler Robinson did.
25:41
Speaker 1: Police are swarming the area. He's just like walking away.
25:46
Speaker 1: Don't look at me. I'm normal. I'm not running from
25:49
Speaker 1: the scene. I'm totally chill check it out, just wandering
25:56
Speaker 1: along until the nine one one calls that just described
26:00
Speaker 1: what he was wearing. Nail him. He's just blending in Castler.
26:05
Speaker 1: He does not want to bring attention to himself. By running.
26:08
Speaker 1: His hand is dripping with blood. Is he in a
26:11
Speaker 1: hurry to get to the dock in a box? No,
26:14
Speaker 1: because he doesn't want police to see him running.
26:17
Speaker 4: Right, And these two explanations, right, One is he's so
26:20
Speaker 4: clever that he's just trying to blend in and that's
26:22
Speaker 4: how clever he is. Or he's got some metal issues
26:24
Speaker 4: and he's mentally insane and he doesn't even realize that
26:26
Speaker 4: what he did was wrong. And certainly in this case,
26:29
Speaker 4: that's got a good, good chance of success. Right, this
26:31
Speaker 4: guy is absolutely off the deep end. You see somebody
26:34
Speaker 4: like that, you immediately jump to why would you do
26:37
Speaker 4: something like that? You've got to have something wrong with you.
26:39
Speaker 4: It's got to go right to a metal insanity defense.
26:41
Speaker 4: That's the only benefit. Otherwise you're thinking, this is a
26:44
Speaker 4: normal guy who planned that kind of murder, plan to
26:46
Speaker 4: just walk casually. He didn't plan this. He didn't plan
26:49
Speaker 4: to get out of trouble. He just didn't know where
26:51
Speaker 4: he was. You heard later, Right, he's got voices going
26:54
Speaker 4: on in his head. He's got some metal issues. That's
26:57
Speaker 4: why he was walking around as if he did nothing,
26:58
Speaker 4: because he's mentally.
26:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's got fourteen arrests and just got out of
27:02
Speaker 1: Yael in January and immediately did this. You know what,
27:06
Speaker 1: everybody there he is, there's Kessler. There is the truth.
27:12
Speaker 1: Kessler coming up with what some would say is a
27:16
Speaker 1: brilliant argument that he had he walked up because he
27:19
Speaker 1: didn't know he did anything wrong. Use what today that
27:25
Speaker 1: he didn't plan the incident, Randy Kessler? Under the law,
27:33
Speaker 1: isn't it true that intent can be formed in the
27:37
Speaker 1: blink of an eye and a twinkling of a moment,
27:40
Speaker 1: As my old judge, Juge Luther Alberson would say, isn't
27:43
Speaker 1: that true? Premeditation does not require a long drawn out plan,
27:47
Speaker 1: such as murdering someone by poisoning them over weeks and months.
27:51
Speaker 1: Isn't that true?
27:52
Speaker 4: It is true? And you might have missed another point,
27:54
Speaker 4: which is why did he have a knife on him
27:56
Speaker 4: in the first place? That probably helps the intent or planet,
27:59
Speaker 4: but the truth matters, why would he form intent to
28:02
Speaker 4: hurt this person?
28:02
Speaker 5: There's no interaction.
28:03
Speaker 4: You're talking about passion murder where you see your wife
28:06
Speaker 4: cheating with somebody else, or you see something that disturbs
28:08
Speaker 4: you and throws.
28:09
Speaker 5: You into the rage.
28:10
Speaker 1: That's not his wife cheating.
28:13
Speaker 5: That's my point.
28:16
Speaker 4: There's nothing that triggered this premeditation. You talk about forming
28:19
Speaker 4: you know the intent because you see something. There was
28:22
Speaker 4: nothing that happened to make him form the intent.
28:24
Speaker 1: It's just you've never had a criminal that did the
28:27
Speaker 1: day just because they felt like it. They had an
28:29
Speaker 1: itch and they scratched it. And we always say why, why? Why? Why?
28:35
Speaker 1: Ask why? State doesn't have to prove motive. There doesn't
28:38
Speaker 1: have to be why. All I have to know is
28:41
Speaker 1: who did it? Did they have intent? And am I
28:44
Speaker 1: in the right jurisdiction? That's what I need to know, right?
28:48
Speaker 4: And the defense will come up with the why. The
28:49
Speaker 4: why is because he's mentally insane, Stop hard Stock. That's
28:53
Speaker 4: the only explanation that's going to get him any possibility of.
28:57
Speaker 1: A defense, and very quickly if that's possible. Randy Kessler,
29:03
Speaker 1: you're used to making long and eloquent arguments to jurys
29:07
Speaker 1: and appellate judges. But we just agreed that intent can
29:14
Speaker 1: be formed in literally the blink of an eye. But
29:19
Speaker 1: you were saying he's clearly mainly insane. This is a
29:23
Speaker 1: litmus test a yes no. Isn't it true that the
29:29
Speaker 1: rule of insanity the insanity test is the old McNaughton rule,
29:33
Speaker 1: brought over to the US from Great Britain, and it's
29:36
Speaker 1: one simple question. Did the suspect know right from wrong
29:41
Speaker 1: at the time of the incident. I don't care what
29:44
Speaker 1: he says he heard voices last week or tomorrow. Did
29:48
Speaker 1: he know what he did at the time was wrong?
29:52
Speaker 1: Isn't that the old McNaughton test.
29:54
Speaker 5: That's the old macgotten test.
29:55
Speaker 4: And I think it's very applicable here because when at
29:58
Speaker 4: the time he did that, clearly, it's going to be
30:01
Speaker 4: easy to argue he did not know that what he
30:02
Speaker 4: was doing was wrong. He was acting under some impulse,
30:05
Speaker 4: some mental diagnosis, some alternate personality, something made him do
30:09
Speaker 4: that clearly.
30:13
Speaker 1: Personality. Did you just pull that out of your.
30:17
Speaker 5: Out of my way schools?
30:21
Speaker 4: The bottom line is he did this, and did he
30:23
Speaker 4: know right from wrong at the moment he did it.
30:25
Speaker 4: And you can almost argue that anybody doing something like
30:27
Speaker 4: that must not have known what they were doing. Why
30:30
Speaker 4: else would they do it? There's no other reason. It's
30:32
Speaker 4: not somebody he knew.
30:33
Speaker 5: It's not somebody.
30:35
Speaker 1: Why Why does it matter?
30:39
Speaker 5: That's what you have.
30:40
Speaker 10: Moments after allegedly stabbing Irena Brown captured on video nonchalantly
30:45
Speaker 10: walking the platform of the train station. Police with weapons
30:49
Speaker 10: drawn and up, surround the suspected killer, taking him to
30:52
Speaker 10: the ground and taking him into custody. On the train,
30:55
Speaker 10: Brown was described as.
30:57
Speaker 1: Wearing a hoodie.
30:57
Speaker 10: Now he's wearing a blank T shirt with the bloody
31:00
Speaker 10: hoodie wrapped around his hands.
31:02
Speaker 1: And here he comes, just walking along, cavalierly, calmly, don't
31:11
Speaker 1: look at me, nothing to see. Oops. I guess they
31:15
Speaker 1: got my description. Joining me and all Star Panuela makes
31:19
Speaker 1: sense of what we know right now. Straight out to
31:21
Speaker 1: Ron Bateman, former homicide detective, former undercover narc former sheriff,
31:27
Speaker 1: and author of a crime fiction series, Silent Blue, tears
31:31
Speaker 1: his new book coming out next week. Question to you,
31:36
Speaker 1: Ron Bateman, when you know when you see the police
31:40
Speaker 1: closing in, very often the fenants do not run. They
31:45
Speaker 1: try to blend in. Like Tyler Robinson did after he
31:49
Speaker 1: allegedly shot Charlie Kirk. He came down off the top
31:53
Speaker 1: of that roof and then he didn't run. He walked
31:59
Speaker 1: with Rampau's long gun and then hit it. See what
32:03
Speaker 1: I mean, That's just an example I'm giving you that
32:05
Speaker 1: everyone is familiar with.
32:08
Speaker 13: Yeah, and it really goes to speak to his intent.
32:11
Speaker 13: We talked about intent being formed in a matter of minutes,
32:14
Speaker 13: and you'll see him if you play the video back,
32:17
Speaker 13: you'll see him take a knife and it's a folding
32:19
Speaker 13: blade that he actually folds the blade out himself. He
32:22
Speaker 13: had to think about that. And then I believe when
32:25
Speaker 13: he was stabbing the victim, I believe it's not a
32:28
Speaker 13: lock blade. It actually closed and cut his finger and
32:31
Speaker 13: that's why all the blood is dripping out on the
32:33
Speaker 13: floor of the train. But then the further his show
32:36
Speaker 13: is intent. He has the wherewithal. Remember we're talking about
32:40
Speaker 13: a guy who's now schizophrenic and all that stuff, which
32:43
Speaker 13: is bull crap. He has the wherewithal to try to
32:47
Speaker 13: conceal his identity. He takes off the hoodie, he wraps
32:50
Speaker 13: his hand in the hoodie, He tries to conceal his identity,
32:53
Speaker 13: He tries to blend in and walk among the patrons.
32:56
Speaker 13: Let's not even talk about all the people or the
32:58
Speaker 13: train that didn't do it. That's another topic.
33:01
Speaker 1: Not a dam n thing, not a thing. In fact,
33:07
Speaker 1: some of them, indition not doing anything to help Arena.
33:10
Speaker 1: They actually started videoing her as she's dying. Okay, I'm
33:14
Speaker 1: glad you brought up what you did, Ron Bateman about
33:16
Speaker 1: the folding knife. Unlike the fixed blade knife used by
33:20
Speaker 1: Brian Koberger to butcher four innocent Idaho students, this is
33:27
Speaker 1: a folding blade used in the murder of Arena to
33:32
Speaker 1: Randy Kessler. Uh oh, where's Kessler? Don't see him? Let's
33:37
Speaker 1: see him? Kessler, go ahead and get your kleenex. Because
33:44
Speaker 1: many people would argue one two seconds don't matter what
33:46
Speaker 1: they do under the law. The time it takes, and
33:49
Speaker 1: you can see it on video, him fidgeting around, digging
33:52
Speaker 1: in his pockets to get the knife. Then he unfolds
33:56
Speaker 1: the knife and positions it. That buys me about five
33:59
Speaker 1: more seconds to form intent. Way when Kessler, yeah, well, I.
34:05
Speaker 4: Don't know what you're gonna do, and I don't know
34:07
Speaker 4: what you want me to do with that. He opened
34:08
Speaker 4: the knife and he did something with it. But did
34:10
Speaker 4: he know what he was doing? Did he know that
34:11
Speaker 4: he was actually did he think it was him? His
34:13
Speaker 4: argument is going to be some other personality.
34:15
Speaker 1: To go over think it was him? Wait what?
34:17
Speaker 3: Yes?
34:18
Speaker 5: Listen to the videos, Listen to the argument.
34:20
Speaker 4: I think it was due He did not think it
34:22
Speaker 4: was himself. He thought of somebody else in his body,
34:24
Speaker 4: somebody else making him do this. He was obviously mentally disturbed.
34:28
Speaker 4: He didn't form the content. Something in his brain went
34:31
Speaker 4: wrong and made him do that. That's the mental insanity
34:34
Speaker 4: defense that he's going to have to use. I don't
34:36
Speaker 4: know what else he has.
34:37
Speaker 1: In the last hours, newly obtained nine to one one
34:40
Speaker 1: audio and video. Now, this is video from the public
34:44
Speaker 1: transport train. There's plenty of video circulating out there because
34:49
Speaker 1: many of the train riders, the patrons, instead of trying
34:54
Speaker 1: to help Arena, started videoing her as she died. Let's
34:58
Speaker 1: see thirty eight Orna getting onto the train and taking
35:03
Speaker 1: her seat, minding her own business. She worked two jobs,
35:11
Speaker 1: new to the US, seeking a better life according to
35:16
Speaker 1: her family and God bless her soul. Look who is
35:21
Speaker 1: sitting behind her, and he's staring at her right now
35:24
Speaker 1: like a wolf looking at a sheep. She gets on,
35:29
Speaker 1: looks around and takes a seat fortuitously in front of
35:36
Speaker 1: the defendant. Let's move to thirty nine. I want you
35:40
Speaker 1: to see the defendant moving in his seat. This is
35:44
Speaker 1: what we call time to form intent, fidgeting with a knife,
35:47
Speaker 1: and we're stopping it right there. We don't need to
35:51
Speaker 1: see the next frame. I'll see it again time right
35:55
Speaker 1: there under the law to form intent. She comes and
35:58
Speaker 1: sits down. He's staring at her, stares at her like
36:02
Speaker 1: a wolf, and then pulls his knife, looks at it,
36:08
Speaker 1: unfolds it, and stands up to murder her. Let's move
36:13
Speaker 1: to forty this video showing a close up of the
36:18
Speaker 1: defendant's hands. That's Arena's hat. Look if that's not intent,
36:27
Speaker 1: that is intent. What do you have to say to that?
36:31
Speaker 1: Keep on the video, Kessler, look at that. I'm totally
36:35
Speaker 1: going to slow mow that for the jury.
36:38
Speaker 5: So I've maintained all along this is a case about sentencing. Right.
36:41
Speaker 4: You can tell me all day long that it's not
36:42
Speaker 4: just about sensing. You're going to get a conviction, But
36:45
Speaker 4: what made him do that? You say, the why doesn't matter.
36:48
Speaker 4: Jury's always want to know why. And you know what,
36:50
Speaker 4: if there's a mental insanity defense, the why is going
36:53
Speaker 4: to matter, and that's going to be the only thing
36:54
Speaker 4: he has if he goes to trial to argue is
36:57
Speaker 4: that he was out of his mind, he did not
36:59
Speaker 4: know what he was doing, was being control possessed, whatever
37:01
Speaker 4: it is, because you're right. Otherwise you've got the intention,
37:06
Speaker 4: you've got the conviction if he doesn't use him a
37:09
Speaker 4: much soon.
37:09
Speaker 1: He was quote possessed all the other fourteen times, maybe
37:14
Speaker 1: that he committed a crime, some of them violent. This
37:18
Speaker 1: is not age progression, people, This is just a few
37:22
Speaker 1: of his many arrests. Can I see Kessler, because I
37:26
Speaker 1: don't want him to hide behind some pictures you're putting up, Kessler,
37:30
Speaker 1: Did you actually just say maybe he was possessed. You're
37:34
Speaker 1: going to bring demon expirits in as a defense. I
37:37
Speaker 1: can't wait. Is that what you just said? I heard it.
37:39
Speaker 1: I can play it back.
37:40
Speaker 4: You said using the laborerson termed. It's you know, you
37:43
Speaker 4: want to use psychological term schizophrenic. Somebody he thought that
37:47
Speaker 4: he was possessed. He thought that somebody else was in
37:49
Speaker 4: his body, some sort of government device was in his body.
37:52
Speaker 4: He thought something else was going He is not owning
37:55
Speaker 4: this act. He did not say I don't know why
37:57
Speaker 4: I did this. He was saying, look, you know, I
38:00
Speaker 4: don't know what happened, but they need to scan me,
38:02
Speaker 4: they need to investigate me.
38:03
Speaker 5: They need to figure this out.
38:04
Speaker 4: Something was going on in his brain, and we don't
38:06
Speaker 4: understand brains yet far enough to understand why this happened.
38:09
Speaker 4: But clearly he did not say I did it and
38:11
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, or I can't figure out.
38:12
Speaker 2: Why I did it.
38:13
Speaker 5: He doesn't seem to have any recollection, so it's a
38:15
Speaker 5: mental health defense.
38:19
Speaker 1: It's clearly recollection. I can tell you this is the
38:23
Speaker 1: death nil for the defense when a JD starts talking
38:28
Speaker 1: like an MD. I just heard you trying to describe
38:31
Speaker 1: the human brain. Good luck with that. I know my limitations.
38:36
Speaker 1: I am not Did you hear me talking to Coin?
38:38
Speaker 1: I know that I don't know, but I love you
38:40
Speaker 1: theorizing on his brain function. I want to go to
38:44
Speaker 1: a special guest joining us any Con. He is director
38:47
Speaker 1: of Victim Services and Advocacy Crime Stoppers out of Houston.
38:50
Speaker 1: Longtime friend and colleague who first introduced me to murderabilia
38:57
Speaker 1: people making money off murder, Andy Con. How many times
39:03
Speaker 1: have you heard a defense attorney much like Randy Kessler
39:07
Speaker 1: joining us tonight state he didn't know what he was doing. Well,
39:11
Speaker 1: you know what he knew what train stopped to get off?
39:13
Speaker 1: Didn't he He needed to take off that bloody shirt
39:16
Speaker 1: and wrap it around his hand, not just the hurt
39:19
Speaker 1: hand that he sliced himself, but to change clothes. He
39:24
Speaker 1: got off that train at the very next stop and
39:27
Speaker 1: tried to walk away. Hit it. Andy.
39:31
Speaker 9: You know the video speaks volumes. I mean, there's no
39:33
Speaker 9: way off answer, Butts, he knew exactly what he was doing.
39:36
Speaker 5: He tried to cover up. But the real story to.
39:39
Speaker 9: Me is you had a young lady who fled wark
39:42
Speaker 9: torn war torn Ukraine only to end up being murdered
39:47
Speaker 9: in the United States. Now we look at what happened
39:52
Speaker 9: with the defendant. This defendant's got a wrap sheet ye
39:55
Speaker 9: long fourteen arrest and in and out of jail, in
39:58
Speaker 9: and out of prisons and out of mental hospitals and
40:01
Speaker 9: so forth. This is a total cataclysmic criminal justice system failure.
40:09
Speaker 9: This is a tragedy, yes, but it was so utterly preventable.
40:13
Speaker 9: And my position again is we continue to allow repeat
40:18
Speaker 9: offenders right back into our community to do what they
40:21
Speaker 9: do best, and that's commit crimes. This is not just
40:26
Speaker 9: a North Carolina it's a national issue. In Houston, we've
40:30
Speaker 9: documented over two hundred plus people that have been murdered
40:34
Speaker 9: by defendants released on what's called a personal recognance bond,
40:38
Speaker 9: which is what this defendant was recently released on. That
40:43
Speaker 9: is about as disturbing as it gets. And I'm hoping
40:47
Speaker 9: that this will ultimately open up everybody's eyes, not just
40:51
Speaker 9: in North Carolina, but all over the country that the
40:54
Speaker 9: criminal justice reform movement has led to more victimization more
41:00
Speaker 9: than any other natural disaster in this country, says Drink.
41:08
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The video of Arena cowering
41:18
Speaker 1: in her seat with de Carlos Brown standing over her,
41:21
Speaker 1: then stabbing her as fellow passengers took out their cell
41:25
Speaker 1: phones to take photos and video what was happening? What
41:31
Speaker 1: else happened on that light real train the day Arena
41:37
Speaker 1: was murdered. Susan Hendrix, joining US investigator journalists. I want
41:41
Speaker 1: to follow up on what Andy Kin just said. This
41:45
Speaker 1: guy just got out of jail again. Why who let
41:51
Speaker 1: him out of jail exactly?
41:54
Speaker 11: And it was mentioned of the forum laws they're not
41:57
Speaker 11: working fourteen. When you put up those ugshots, Nancy, and
42:01
Speaker 11: that's not all.
42:02
Speaker 12: Of them, you think, how could this guy have gotten out?
42:05
Speaker 12: What was he doing there in the first place?
42:08
Speaker 11: The governor signing a law in her name, Arena's law,
42:11
Speaker 11: But he even says, look, this isn't enough. It's a
42:14
Speaker 11: step in the right direction, but it's clearly not enough,
42:16
Speaker 11: meaning it will take away some of the power from
42:18
Speaker 11: the judges to make that decision in letting someone who
42:22
Speaker 11: has priors out of prison.
42:25
Speaker 1: Guys, we know who the judge was. She is about
42:30
Speaker 1: as hard on crime as a limp noodle. Her name
42:37
Speaker 1: is Judge Teresa Stokes. Let's listen.
42:41
Speaker 10: In September twenty twenty two, Brown arrested on assault on
42:44
Speaker 10: a female an injury to property. April twenty twenty four,
42:47
Speaker 10: Brown arrested for misusing nine one one May twenty twenty four,
42:50
Speaker 10: misusing nine one one January twenty twenty five, misusing nine
42:54
Speaker 10: one one January twenty twenty five. Judge Theresa Stokes release
42:58
Speaker 10: Brown the same day he was on a written promise
43:01
Speaker 10: to appear. Brown did not present himself for evaluation. Three
43:05
Speaker 10: weeks later. He is alleged to have killed Irena. If
43:08
Speaker 10: that order was followed, he would have been evaluated weeks
43:11
Speaker 10: before the stabbing. The public defender in his murdered charge
43:14
Speaker 10: filed a motion questioning Brown's mental capacity, and Wiggins again
43:17
Speaker 10: ordered d be evaluated. Police have not identified any motive
43:21
Speaker 10: or lengthy attack to mental illness in.
43:24
Speaker 1: The last hours. Newly released nine to one one audio
43:26
Speaker 1: and video. Let's take a look. This video is showing
43:31
Speaker 1: the defendant calmly waiting to exit the train. He knows
43:37
Speaker 1: exactly what he's doing, making way for people, and look
43:40
Speaker 1: at everybody walking around the blood. Yeah they didn't help her,
43:45
Speaker 1: but they don't want to get their tennis shoes bloody.
43:48
Speaker 1: And there he goes. He knows exactly what's going on
43:51
Speaker 1: around him. He knows when the train door opens that
43:54
Speaker 1: this is his exit and he's leaving. Aranda, by the way,
43:59
Speaker 1: is bleeding out dead right now.
44:04
Speaker 2: Two.
44:04
Speaker 1: Randy Kessler joining us. This is not only a state case,
44:09
Speaker 1: but a federal case as well. Explain why a special
44:18
Speaker 1: fleet of lawyers have been appointed that are death qualified.
44:23
Speaker 1: What does that mean?
44:25
Speaker 4: Because you want to make it appeal proof, right, lawyers
44:27
Speaker 4: that are qualified to take on.
44:29
Speaker 5: Death penalty cases.
44:30
Speaker 4: Then he can't after the fact say well, I had
44:32
Speaker 4: ineffective assistance of counsel. My lawyers didn't understand how to
44:36
Speaker 4: handle a death penalty case. They're protecting the verdict and
44:39
Speaker 4: the conviction straightforward, easy as that.
44:43
Speaker 1: The case will get reversed if there is a conviction,
44:47
Speaker 1: if there is a death penalty sentence, if the lawyers
44:51
Speaker 1: are not death qualified. In other words, you have to
44:55
Speaker 1: sit on x number of death penalty cases, either first
44:59
Speaker 1: chair or second chair. So you know what you're doing.
45:03
Speaker 1: It's got to be a fair fight, now, isn't a
45:05
Speaker 1: true Susan Hendrix that, Hey, the suspect has been sent
45:09
Speaker 1: for evaluation, mental evaluation to see if he is competent
45:15
Speaker 1: to stand trial. Yes, absolutely he is and will be evaluated.
45:21
Speaker 11: I was listening to a prison phone call between him
45:24
Speaker 11: and his sister and he doesn't make any sense.
45:27
Speaker 12: I don't know if that's because he is insane or
45:30
Speaker 12: he's acting like he does have a problem.
45:33
Speaker 11: But I think they will, of course be brought into
45:36
Speaker 11: court and he will be evaluated, and I think that
45:39
Speaker 11: that's the way the defense will go. But how can
45:41
Speaker 11: you erase these fourteen mugshots in all and the video
45:46
Speaker 11: there is just like you said, Nancy planning this out,
45:49
Speaker 11: opening the knife and doing it. He said to his
45:51
Speaker 11: sister in the jailhouse call that he felt that they
45:55
Speaker 11: wanted him.
45:55
Speaker 5: To do it. He didn't do it, he was told
45:57
Speaker 5: to do it. We'll see if that works, I doubt it.
46:00
Speaker 1: You know, Kessler, there's a big difference in evaluating someone
46:04
Speaker 1: for incompetency and insanity. Explain and a nutshell. What is incompetency?
46:15
Speaker 4: Well, in competency, you have to understand the proceedings. It's
46:17
Speaker 4: not fair you can't help the lawyer defend you if
46:20
Speaker 4: you're incompetent to stand trial if you don't understand the proceedings.
46:24
Speaker 4: To get off the hook for murder, you have to
46:26
Speaker 4: have been insane at the time that it happened that
46:29
Speaker 4: the thing happened. In Competency is more a question of
46:31
Speaker 4: ability to stand trial. Do you understand the proceedings. You
46:34
Speaker 4: need to be able to help in your own defense.
46:36
Speaker 4: And if you're not able to help in your own defense,
46:38
Speaker 4: then you don't have a trial until you are able
46:40
Speaker 4: to assist in your own defense.
46:42
Speaker 5: Nutshell, I kell Slar.
46:44
Speaker 1: Would you agree that competency is being able to assist
46:48
Speaker 1: your lawyers in your defense at your trial? Competent you
46:52
Speaker 1: are competent to assist your defense attorneys, Yes, okay. And
46:57
Speaker 1: insanity is whether you knew right from wrong at the
47:00
Speaker 1: time of the incident. The time of arena is killing.
47:04
Speaker 1: They're two very different things, right, don't like to agree
47:08
Speaker 1: with you, but yes, So first the lawyer is going
47:12
Speaker 1: to try to get enrled incompetent. Why delay, delay, delay,
47:17
Speaker 1: That's the first and the last rule in the defense playbook.
47:20
Speaker 1: Why people forget about it. Their memories fade, witnesses actually die,
47:25
Speaker 1: important witnesses actually die or move, you can't find them.
47:29
Speaker 1: And the inflammation surrounding the murder of an innocent young
47:35
Speaker 1: woman can die dw hew, people forget about it. That's
47:39
Speaker 1: why the defense wants a delay. Would you at least
47:42
Speaker 1: agree with that?
47:44
Speaker 4: Yes, And it's probably easier to find incompetent at the
47:48
Speaker 4: time of trial than insanity at the time. How do
47:50
Speaker 4: you get inside of his mind at that exact moment,
47:52
Speaker 4: whereas right now they can interview him, now, we can
47:54
Speaker 4: have a psychologists test him. Now, you know, it's easier
47:57
Speaker 4: for justice say I'm going to put off the trial
48:00
Speaker 4: then to say, oh, we're going to let him off
48:01
Speaker 4: the hook for murder because of insanity. So it's an
48:03
Speaker 4: easier thing to argue for the defense council. And you
48:06
Speaker 4: get a second bite at the apple. If you lose
48:08
Speaker 4: that argument, you still can argue insanity at the.
48:10
Speaker 5: Time of the murder.
48:13
Speaker 1: Right, So if at some point, if he is rehabbed
48:16
Speaker 1: and is determined he is competent to stand trial, then
48:20
Speaker 1: when he goes on trial, the defense will be insanity.
48:24
Speaker 1: And there are a host of variations. There's guilty but
48:28
Speaker 1: mentally ill, there's not guilty by reason of insanity, there's
48:33
Speaker 1: guilty but insane, just as a whole variation of what
48:38
Speaker 1: a jury can come back on. Just throw me a
48:41
Speaker 1: few choices, Kessler.
48:43
Speaker 5: I mean, you've named them.
48:45
Speaker 4: It really doesn't matter what you call him, and it's
48:46
Speaker 4: state by state. Each state calls them different things. But
48:49
Speaker 4: you're giving the jury options. If there are people on
48:51
Speaker 4: the jury that say there's something wrong with him. I
48:54
Speaker 4: can't find that he is a normal person that just
48:56
Speaker 4: intentionally went after this person and did it. I want
48:59
Speaker 4: to give him some minor little break because he's got
49:01
Speaker 4: mental issues, though to do use one of those other
49:04
Speaker 4: excuses to convict and say he had mental issues mental
49:08
Speaker 4: you know, But you're right you named three or four
49:09
Speaker 4: of them. They're called a whole bunch of different things
49:11
Speaker 4: depending on which state you're in. But there are other
49:13
Speaker 4: options besides murder.
49:15
Speaker 2: One.
49:15
Speaker 1: What about Andy Kahn?
49:17
Speaker 9: You know, as much as you want to blame the offender,
49:20
Speaker 9: and obviously he deserves a lot.
49:22
Speaker 13: Of blame, what happened to this young lady, I blame.
49:25
Speaker 5: Our criminal justice system even more.
49:27
Speaker 9: They kept knowingly allowing him to re enter society time
49:33
Speaker 9: and time again, only to see him reoffend time and
49:37
Speaker 9: time again. And how on the heck do you justify
49:40
Speaker 9: giving someone are you no bond? A cash no cash
49:45
Speaker 9: bond and say here, you know, appear in court. That's
49:49
Speaker 9: insane to actually allow someone with his rap sheet just
49:54
Speaker 9: to walk out of court on the promise that you'll
49:57
Speaker 9: reappear again. This is what's writhing our system and why
50:02
Speaker 9: the public has just lost faith because we keep seeing
50:06
Speaker 9: offenders like him that are recycled all over the time,
50:10
Speaker 9: and they end up killing people. This was a tragedy,
50:14
Speaker 9: but it was so utterly preventable and it's a total
50:18
Speaker 9: systematic failure. And I know you'll agree with me on this, Nancy,
50:23
Speaker 9: but I get sick and tired of naming laws after
50:26
Speaker 9: dead people. And now we have a new law named
50:30
Speaker 9: after Arena that hopefully others won't end up with the
50:33
Speaker 9: same faith as she has now become.
50:36
Speaker 12: Despite all of this past documented criminal history.
50:39
Speaker 14: When Brown was arrested yet again in January of this
50:42
Speaker 14: past year, a Democrat judge who will I will add
50:45
Speaker 14: was a supporter, a strong supporter of former Vice President
50:49
Speaker 14: Kamala Harris, released this insane criminal once again.
50:53
Speaker 12: Without requiring him to pay any bail.
50:56
Speaker 14: He simply had to sign a written promise to return
50:59
Speaker 14: for him court hearing. Think about how crazy it is
51:02
Speaker 14: to ask a career criminal, someone who by definition repeatedly
51:07
Speaker 14: breaks the law, to just sign.
51:09
Speaker 12: A written promise and come back again another day.
51:11
Speaker 1: This is madness.
51:13
Speaker 12: This monster should have been locked up and Arena should
51:15
Speaker 12: still be alive.
51:17
Speaker 1: From Fox straight out to Karen's Stark forensics psychologist renowned
51:23
Speaker 1: TV radio trauma expert Karen way In, I have to tell.
51:27
Speaker 8: You, Nancy, yes, this guy has been diagnosed I've heard
51:31
Speaker 8: with schizophrenia, but I see intent. He knew to have
51:36
Speaker 8: that knife. He fled after he committed that crime. And
51:41
Speaker 8: when her sister said to him, why did you do that?
51:46
Speaker 8: Why did you do that to this citizen person? And
51:49
Speaker 8: he said she was reading my mind, which tells me
51:53
Speaker 8: that he has a rationalization that he actually after the fact,
51:58
Speaker 8: was trying to explain what he did which means that
52:02
Speaker 8: he knows the difference, He understands he did something, and
52:06
Speaker 8: he wants to come up with some kind of an explanation.
52:09
Speaker 8: So I see intent. I see somebody who knew exactly
52:14
Speaker 8: what he was doing.
52:16
Speaker 1: Ron Bateman joining me. Former homicide detective, former undercover narc
52:20
Speaker 1: and author of a series Silent Blue Tears. You can
52:25
Speaker 1: find it at Ronbatemanbooks dot com. Ron is the investigators here,
52:32
Speaker 1: much like yourself, have their work cut out for them.
52:34
Speaker 1: They don't have to prove just what happened. They've got
52:38
Speaker 1: the right guy. Now, the state, including investigators, are going
52:43
Speaker 1: to have to prove he knew what he was doing
52:46
Speaker 1: and that it was wrong. Ron, how do you go
52:48
Speaker 1: about doing that?
52:50
Speaker 13: Well, you know, you got to ask the question, which
52:52
Speaker 13: is really obvious. If you didn't know what he was
52:55
Speaker 13: doing was wrong, then why did.
52:57
Speaker 3: He leave his seat?
52:58
Speaker 13: If he was completely scared to frantic and didn't know
53:01
Speaker 13: what was going on what he did was right, he
53:03
Speaker 13: would have stayed put. But we know we've already talked
53:06
Speaker 13: about it. He did all those things. He tried to
53:08
Speaker 13: conceal his identity and try to blend into the crowd
53:10
Speaker 13: and blah blah, blah, try to cover his hand up
53:12
Speaker 13: and all that. But I got to make one point
53:14
Speaker 13: that the community is crying about that. Maybe you don't hear, Nancy,
53:18
Speaker 13: but I do. What the hell is wrong with the
53:21
Speaker 13: media by Keith repeatedly showing these this murder over and
53:25
Speaker 13: over again. Thank god your staff didn't do it today.
53:28
Speaker 13: We saw Charlie Kirk murdered a thousand times. We've seen
53:32
Speaker 13: this poor girl stat a thousand times. Are we so
53:35
Speaker 13: desensitized that we have totally thrown away the victims dignity
53:40
Speaker 13: and respect that her parents probably most likely saw this
53:46
Speaker 13: and didn't learn about it in private like they should have.
53:49
Speaker 13: This is really despicable that the media released this video.
53:53
Speaker 13: Now you can release stills of the suspects so we
53:55
Speaker 13: can find them. Good, no problem. But the Charlotte Transit Department,
54:00
Speaker 13: you know, I don't know if it's a PIA that
54:01
Speaker 13: went out of Public Information Act request, but they released
54:04
Speaker 13: it and they didn't give it any thought, and it
54:06
Speaker 13: was just for a god darn sound bite. And that's
54:08
Speaker 13: bull crap. That is so desensitized. Desensitivity is just just
54:13
Speaker 13: off the charts.
54:15
Speaker 1: Andy con He's right, we are caring.
54:18
Speaker 9: More about defendants rights than we are about victims' rights,
54:23
Speaker 9: and we repeatedly see this with prime scene photos being
54:27
Speaker 9: sold online, videos being made of victims that are murdered,
54:32
Speaker 9: and she deserves better. But again I'm going to close
54:36
Speaker 9: with this. The defendant fair share of the blame. But
54:41
Speaker 9: this is a total systematic failure. It never should have happened.
54:47
Speaker 9: You cannot continue to continue to recycle offenders over and
54:52
Speaker 9: over again and expect a better outcome. She paid the
54:57
Speaker 9: ultimate price. The only question is how any more are
55:00
Speaker 9: going to pay the price under the guise of criminal
55:03
Speaker 9: justice reform that has taking its toll on all our
55:06
Speaker 9: citizens throughout the country. Enough is enough?
55:10
Speaker 5: This has to end.
55:11
Speaker 1: Hey Nancy, yeah, jump an please.
55:14
Speaker 13: Yeah, what I want to say? You know, we're so
55:17
Speaker 13: we were so hell bent on showing this video over
55:19
Speaker 13: and over again. Are we going to show a firing squad, which,
55:22
Speaker 13: by the way, I could clear my schedule for that day.
55:24
Speaker 13: Are we going to show the firing squad killing this guy? No,
55:27
Speaker 13: that's where not because we just care about this little
55:31
Speaker 13: cool SoundBite to get some attention, which is horrible, horrible
55:36
Speaker 13: for the victims.
55:37
Speaker 1: And I assume you're referring to the moment that Arena
55:39
Speaker 1: was actually stabbed, doctor Coin. Question to you, many people
55:45
Speaker 1: want to believe that Arena's death was instantaneous, that she
55:49
Speaker 1: felt nothing. That one moment she's looking at her phone.
55:52
Speaker 1: In the next moment she's looking at angels. That's not
55:56
Speaker 1: what happened, Doctor Coin. She suffered No.
56:00
Speaker 7: I mean, you can argue that maybe she went unconscious,
56:04
Speaker 7: you know, within a minute or just less. But she
56:07
Speaker 7: certainly would have felt that stab wound, and you could
56:10
Speaker 7: see when she looked at her attacker, she certainly would
56:12
Speaker 7: have had that sudden rush of fear and panic before
56:16
Speaker 7: she passed out.
56:17
Speaker 1: In a shocking turn of events, de Carlos Brown, the suspect,
56:23
Speaker 1: set to go to trial and arenas their roots because
56:26
Speaker 1: murder has now been deemed incompetent. Yes, the man accused
56:32
Speaker 1: of fatally stabbing a twenty three year old young woman
56:37
Speaker 1: has been determined to be mentally incompetent.
56:41
Speaker 5: As you know.
56:42
Speaker 1: Brown indicted on murder ie in Mecklenburg County Superior Court
56:48
Speaker 1: back in September. Also, a federal grand jury separately indicted
56:53
Speaker 1: him on charges of violence against a mass transportation system
56:57
Speaker 1: resulting in death. Deemed incompetent and we wait as justice unfolds.
57:04
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story is signing off. Goodbye Ford.
57:12
Speaker 4: M hmm