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Celebrating Inchstones in Autism: Sarah Kernion Talks with ABA Center Director, Melanie Roman White · Inchstones with Sarah | Autism Advocacy & Caregiver Stories

• 0:00
  Speaker A: All right, today on the Inchdomes podcast, I have a woman who has been in my life for over seven years now and is someone who has greatly changed the trajectory of my mindset from day one of being a mom to two children with non speaking autism. I have Mel Roman here today, director of Incenter and center based ABA Therapy for the Uncommon Thread in New Jersey where my children both attended for their first learning years. Mel, thank you so much for being here.
• 0:33
  Speaker B: Thank you so much, Sarah. This is, this is, it's a pleasure to be here. I was hoping the day would come. Yes, it is. I was waiting. I knew something was going to happen.
• 0:42
  Speaker A: You've always believed in this, but you've also just believe in the parents so fully and fiercely for the parents that you get to serve their children. What brought you into being a curator of the education and a leader for early childhood education for autistic children?
• 1:03
  Speaker B: You know, it wasn't planned, it was on accident. I was always around and around, you know, a diverse group of learners, adults and kids. My mother works in human service, so I was always exposed to disabilities. When I was in college, I was nannying for a family who had a little boy that wasn't speaking, crying a lot. And I was spending a lot of time in the home with a mom who, you know, took me to a doctor and said, something's going on here, not sure what it is. And then we got the lone behold diagnosis of autism. And this was back in 2000, around probably, you know, boss was thrown out there, ABA therapy was thrown out there. And you know, years later, we stuck by methodology that had data, so we weren't guessing. And I really became fiercely dedicated to the family. And this was before I had my own kids. And one of the things that kept me going was every time their kid did something, whether it was eat with a fork, throw something in the garbage, get in the car without crying, getting ice cream and waiting online, holding their bot. Like all of these things that as parents now of my own kids, I know we take for granted, all of these little wins were so impactful.
• 2:38
  Speaker A: The inch dumps.
• 2:39
  Speaker B: Yes, the inch thumbs.
• 2:41
  Speaker A: You saw it before.
• 2:43
  Speaker B: It was like these little things. It wasn't like these big things. And of course I was in my 20s then, so I was thinking, ah, you know, this is not that big of a deal. This is not big of a deal. And then years later, when I had my own kids, I'm like, oh no, that's a really big deal. And now I know why they wanted me to stay and now I know why they treated me so well and I was so important to them because I was helping them raise and protect the unknown. Right. This was 20 years ago. And I think the point in my. My personal life and career was when I had my own kids and I was always taken for granted. A lot of. A lot of inch zones. And that's when I thought, you know what? I got to help these parents that come into this building. I need to help them. Not on a. On a scientific level. I need to help them on a very, you know, I'm a mom. You're a mom. Your job is a little bit harder than mine. And I'm going to try to help you find the people, have a safe space, trust someone on a very personal level. And that is what has driven me to be in the field for 25 years.
• 4:04
  Speaker A: Well, it's almost like you're this professional village curator. I think that's. There's a lot of things out there right now in everyday parenting. Right. We've lost the sense of the village. Right. We do all this stuff on our own. Right. Typical. Parents are drained from all this, and we've lost the village. I always think the one nice thing about having children with autism is that I actually do have a village around them, like I do. And I think that I talk more about what Millie and Mac in their village does for my own life journey than I do with my typical oldest. Right. Because I get to have this kind of interpersonal dialogue. I don't have this with the director of, you know, I don't know, counseling at a middle school. At a typical middle school.
• 4:49
  Speaker B: Right.
• 4:49
  Speaker A: I don't have this.
• 4:50
  Speaker B: Right.
• 4:51
  Speaker A: You know, the basketball coach. I'm not. I mean, I'm sitting down and thanking them for their part in my children's life, but I'm not having these. Really. True.
• 4:59
  Speaker B: Yeah. I really, you know, I really. I guess I've always just known that I've been really lucky to be set up in a place that people from all different backgrounds and walks and situations land up for whatever reason. And I guess I never really thought of it as, you know, help per se. It was like, you know, let me do your favor. Check this out. Or I think you might hit it off with this mom. Or this mom has siblings that are affected and you have twins, like, hook up with her. And I do get a lot of. I get a lot of feedback from parents all the time. And you. You just wind up thinking, like, we're friends now. Right. You don't think of it as. And it's more like family, friends, I would say. And, and I guess.
• 5:47
  Speaker A: Well, I think that people. Think people feel so bucketed. Like you we were saying before I, you know, we recorded this. Like people think their life is over. And I, I certainly did. I mean like, you know, especially I was already pregnant with Mac when Millie was diagnosed. You know, that was like. Or, or that she was in the process of getting, of getting diagnosed. And I think we find ourselves so isolated and think we're so different and we're so unique and like no one's gonna understand. And then you're like, like no, there actually are a lot of people that are going through this. It's just that we haven't been conditioned to think that there's a bucket of people out there that are waking up and still changing a pull up of a nine year old. That actually there actually are a lot of us out there that are doing that and struggle with things. And the more that we just lean into, you know, what you're saying is you get to be this really cool bridge to say actually that person gets it actually you should listen to her, you know, and it's, it doesn't mean they come from the same walk of life getting these cool kids that are. There's so much to learn, little computers to understand, there's so much to learn. And when you have another mom or parent, you get to be that person, that connector. And I think that's one of the coolest things that you innately do as Melroman.
• 6:59
  Speaker B: Thank you so much. I love that. And I, and I, that's, that's, that's a really, that's a really good way and a really good explanation for me to even see it that way. Because I want, I want to give to people. I'm a giver by.
• 7:14
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 7:15
  Speaker B: Nature. And I don't like suffering, you know. So if those, if those little bits of information and connections is my way of making an impact on the community, then I am, you know, just like you. This is, this is my mission and this is what I'll continue to do.
• 7:33
  Speaker A: So tell me, what would be your greatest directive or your greatest lesson? To ask parents that are, you know, looking for the schooling or looking for the next place of education for their child. You've seen so many of us and probably could talk to anyone around the country at any center, what is the one thing you say to them that you feel could be your best directive?
• 7:55
  Speaker B: You know, I try to always make sure that you know this when, when I'M meeting with families for the first time. I try to really understand the person in a very brief time. You know, am I dealing with somebody? Like, when I met you, you're like, I don't know what's happening. I got your information from somebody I know of, somebody I know. Where do I start?
• 8:19
  Speaker A: Yep.
• 8:20
  Speaker B: And, you know, you can say, boom, boom, boom. This is what you're gonna do. And you're. You're moving through those raw emotions, and you're doing it. Sometimes you have a parent that's not like that. You know, they're looking at you, and they're. They're. They're literally. They're slimy. They can't. They can't even move. They can't make their neck.
• 8:36
  Speaker A: They've completely.
• 8:37
  Speaker B: They're frozen. They can't even tell their parents. Right. Or their siblings or. Or their best friends. So the first thing I try to do is say, let's take this diagnosis off the table for a minute. And. And if this was anything that we had to do with what we do first, we'd have to come up with a plan. We'd have to make a plan. We might not know that it's going to work. It might not work. It might not sound good, but let's come up with a plan so we can start moving this forward. Because here's what we have here. We have a little person that they only have us, and we're there only if we don't do anything. We're just wasting time, right? So I were to do anything. And the thing that I do constantly is I try to know my families, where they're coming from, right? I try to know their dynamic. And I always say, probably to every family I meet, if it's not working, change it.
• 9:33
  Speaker A: Right?
• 9:34
  Speaker B: If it's not working, let's. Let's change it. That could be family. That could be where you're living. That might be your network of people in town, your job. You know, I have lots of moms that are like, I can't work now. How do I get here? Here and here? Right there. I will. Let me. I'm gonna have you hook up with the mom that I have that's running a, you know, a huge company. I'm gonna hook you up with her, talk to her and see what she's. See how she does it. The other thing I try to really make sure I spend a lot of time on is. Is encouraging, like, a full family response. I want cousins, aunts, uncles, siblings, neighbors to know what you're Dealing with. How do you do that? Invite them over, go to the picnic, go on vacation, hook up with this lady, Sarah Markle, and check out her page because she got her kids all over the place. She gets her kids on planes, she's got her kids traveling, she's got them at football games. I try to make sure that I'm steering them that way because the automatic response I see over and over again is that we can't do it. Our kid is on the spectrum. We can't go. Our kid doesn't sit in a restaurant, we can't do it. Our kids won't wait online. And I don't like hearing that because my whole mission in life is inclusion, right?
• 11:00
  Speaker A: And that's also what's. I think the mismatch is always when you. As a cause I look to. There was a woman that someone gave me the name of. Her name's Jenna Mann, and she's got two boys that are now. One's living at a group home with other young men with autism. The other one's in the local community college. But I shared that because she was my person that said, no, you can live. Get your kids to the shows in New York City, go to the playgrounds, take them to Coney island, walk them on the boardwalk. And I saw in myself someone else. And so the more examples of just living large allows you to. And this is what something that's really, really extremely risen on my heart since having Mac and Millie is choosing interaction over isolation. Like constantly choosing to engage and interact with the world. Whether it's the smallest little two minute walk across the street or whether it is a trip to Disney World. It's going to be hard. It's going to be hard. It's going to be hard. Just wash that thought off. But choose to engage and interact versus isolate. Because when we isolate, we're literally just confirming what society has conditioned us to believe about children on the spectrum is that they're unworthy, they can't handle this, they're unable to do it. You know, it's just not the. It's just not true. And as you live it, you start to see, oh my gosh, 99% of the people out there are inquisitive, ask the best questions. Oh my gosh, you do this, you know, you travel, like 99% of the people are like pretty amazing, like when you interact with them and they're accepting of it. But for some reason we've been conditioned. And I don't know if this is like a millennial Thing I don't know if this is like, you know, growing up with, you know, grandparents that were depression babies. Like, I don't know what it is for like women and parents that are my age, but like we were conditioned that it was supposed to be this. And that's just how the white picket fence life goes. And you, you engage with people that are similar to you and you pick the right job and you're successful. And that's just it. And it's just, it's so the opposite. So when you are met with this mismatch within your own children, then choosing to interact, yeah, it's going to be hard, but it's still always the right choice.
• 13:13
  Speaker B: It's always.
• 13:14
  Speaker A: I really deeply believe that.
• 13:16
  Speaker B: I firmly believe that. And I think, you know, when I think about my lifetime, in 20 years and 30 years from now, I would love to be on the other side of we're all included, everybody is able to go, everybody can do this. And it's got to be modified. And we're okay with modifications. But.
• 13:38
  Speaker A: Yeah, and that's also the thing being okay with the modifications as the parent for some reason, again, this conditioning of, well, that's the same. That's not the same experience. You're right, it's not.
• 13:47
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's their experience. But that's their experience.
• 13:50
  Speaker A: Exactly. This is. That's their experience. Well, push your ego aside and think maybe that roller coaster was like thrilling for your child.
• 13:58
  Speaker B: Right.
• 13:59
  Speaker A: Who cares?
• 13:59
  Speaker B: Maybe all that input is just what they needed and they never got it before.
• 14:03
  Speaker A: Exactly. They never got it right.
• 14:06
  Speaker B: Maybe going backwards on the Himalaya was all they needed to feel that this.
• 14:13
  Speaker A: Reset button and you start to see.
• 14:16
  Speaker B: And that's, I think, where, you know, a few of my biggest. And it's hard, right, because I'm working in this ABA center where it's, you know, all the data, it's all the graphs and if it doesn't add up, then it's not good. And I, lots of times I say, but we walked to the ice cream shop, they waited in line, they ate the ice cream and then they asked to go back. I can't score that anywhere. But that's a summertime of going to ice cream shops.
• 14:49
  Speaker A: That's the win. Yes. Like that is. Those are the things that I think that parents of newly diagnosed children need to. I wish there was a way to hand a little like gift of that of like. Yes, this looks very rote and data driven and routine and repetitive, all these things. But let me show you what that Looks like six months from now, right. Is that we're going to Dairy Queen and you know what that dairy. You're not gonna sit there for 20 minutes. I know that you want to sit there for 20 minutes. Probably not gonna slept for 20 minutes. But did you go and did they tolerate sprinkles?
• 15:23
  Speaker B: Right.
• 15:23
  Speaker A: Like, like. And those are the things that. What I always like to say because you know, obviously there's a lot of thoughts on ABA is that ABA from the immediacy of it gives you the foundation to be able to do all the things that you desire to do with your children.
• 15:39
  Speaker B: I think Sarah, that's really important.
• 15:40
  Speaker A: It is because of that.
• 15:42
  Speaker B: That's right. And that I think is. That is hard for new parents when they come to an ABA program. They're like. Or are they going to change? They have to be here 40 hours, it's a long day, they can't nap. You know, it's saying that this is a lot of practice that we're going to do to be. To give them the gift of being able to have a little bit more independence than what you're thinking. Because those are the things that we hold on to. Right. As moms, we're on social media, we're always looking at other. Lots of times they say shut the, you know, shut it down. What your two year old's doing is somebody else's two year old doing. Forget it, shut it down. But I think that if. When I think about my two, my two biggest impacts that I want to make is I want to let newly diagnosed parents know your life is not over. It's going to look different. Don't give up. Do all the things that you had planned, you know, all the baby books you read. It's not working out for anybody, diagnosed or not diagnosed. Nobody's kid is sleeping 12 hours a night and not waking up.
• 16:44
  Speaker A: Exactly. You know how she is. Mac Markle. Mac markle still sleeps 12 hours a day. That's the irony of all this is that like my son with non speaking autism, that kid crashes at 6:30 and he's up at 7. I have to wake him up.
• 16:57
  Speaker B: It doesn't get better than that.
• 16:59
  Speaker A: But that's what I mean. That's what like it's like, like, like literally that's hilarious. As an example because this child push you get him in bed. He literally takes his hand and pushes my face like I am so white. Get the out of my room. I am tired. People think there's all these. We get conditioned to think of like you Said like the books say this or the life is so different than that. And if you're open to that and you're open to the possibilities, like it just, it's beautifully surprising. And like to your point about the social media, close those people out. Because comparison is the thief of joy.
• 17:34
  Speaker B: It is.
• 17:35
  Speaker A: And the more you compare because I, and I know that you know this about me and I'm sure you have other parents that are like this. The joy that is found in the small moments of these kids when you really get quiet and focus on their small little increments of growth is like you can't purchase it. Like you cannot purchase this. It is so high level. And it's this, you know, without the risk of getting like woo woo. Like it's like a thin veil of heaven for me. I'm like, it is such the good stuff, you know.
• 18:02
  Speaker B: But Sarah, you've always been as a parent and that's what is most admirable about. And there's a few things that I remember in our journey together. First, I remember.
• 18:12
  Speaker A: I remember every day.
• 18:14
  Speaker B: Nope, nope, nope. Always looking great. I even remember when you would come into the meeting. Sarah Barker was here because I smell her perfume. She was smelling.
• 18:22
  Speaker A: I love it. I love it. Well, that is a trademark to me. I haven't, I've worn it since high school. I can't quit it. So. Okay, I'll accept that.
• 18:28
  Speaker B: But I remember when we had Mac here in a car seat and you came into the office and you said, I need to come talk to you. And Mac was in the car seat and you said, I hear from Millie, but I want to talk about this guy. And I said, there's nothing to talk about. Just let me know what we are going to do. You know, let me know. Do I know that you know what to do? You just let me know what you need me to be able to do.
• 18:50
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 18:51
  Speaker B: And I remember being. I remember saying myself, this mom. There are no barriers for her. She is moving forward and always, just always kept moving at a admirable pace with double the work.
• 19:11
  Speaker A: Yeah. I mean to that point is that I said before I know that I wasn't the only one. And I think that realization that those who've come before, there are people that have had these too. Children that are mirror images of Millie and Mac or twins or all these things that like knowing that I really wasn't the only one to ever go through this. But if I keep moving, I'm gonna create acceleration for the possibility. You just keep moving because the Second we stop, that's where this real placation of isolation starts to begin.
• 19:43
  Speaker B: There. There's, you know, they're not talking by the time they're in first grade, you know, and I think that that is something that I always want to be able to support my parents with. You know, I say moms because, you know, these moms, they are hardcore. They are. They are ready for anything and they are not scared once they get going. Yeah, but I want to be that. That person that says, listen, this isn't working. I can't do it anymore. Help me figure something else out. There's always going to be an answer and we're always going to get you. We're always getting where you need to be. You won't have all the answers by the time you leave our center, but you're going to have enough to feel confident that you can keep going. And if I can continue to do that on all of our parents journeys, you know, that that's really all I'm looking to do.
• 20:28
  Speaker A: I wish that everyone could even just get the reminder from this broad bucket of autism parents when they leave a first meeting with someone like you or the director of an ABA center. I know that that was huge. That took a lot just to get that thing going, get the energy, the emotional grit, the emotional resistance, resilience, you know, to even have those and being able to sit there, take it all in process. It make changes, make choices. That's what I think a lot of. I don't want to say I don't want to box in as typical parents. People go to parent teacher conferences and it's like, doesn't do a nightly reading.
• 21:03
  Speaker B: But it's not raw in the night.
• 21:04
  Speaker A: And it's not intimate and it's not. Yes, it's not raw and intimate. And this insists upon raw and intimate. You have to be, because it's literally of you, it's your child who is, quite frankly, unable to survive without your deep guidance and reflection on what you want for them. And just keep going. I just say, like, keep. Keep moving. Just keep moving those legs. Keep moving that mind, you know. And you've seen this, I'm sure, and I just want to touch on this, is that having a boy and a girl and two and a half years apart, Mac is almost as big as Millie now. So people think they're twins. And I'm like, nope, two and a half years apart. They exhibit such different behaviors and personalities that like, sometimes I'm like, what is autism? And what is Millie just being the second child, like, she just stays in her. But that's like, is that autism or is that just Millie being Millie? She's always dog. And Mac has literally knows he's the baby of a family. Like, I want to remind parents so much that, like, your child, as these toddlers that are starting school in aba, trust me, they are going to lose their personality, like, behind this. Like, they are only going to grow in their behaviors because I've seen it from a boy and a girl at two different ages, and they went through the same process. It's very true. Education.
• 22:21
  Speaker B: It's. It's so true. We get that all the time. Are they going to change? Are they going to be like little robots? And I'm like, their personalities are personality. We can't change that.
• 22:31
  Speaker A: You know, the quest of your life is to start noticing what. What is an autism tastic behavior of theirs and what is their personality, you know, and get to know you and have personalities. Autism is not their only personality.
• 22:42
  Speaker B: That's right. And you got to get to know your kids. Like, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid to, you know, lie in bed at the end of the day and really get to know your kids. You know, it doesn't have to be work all the time. You know, it. You know, maybe.
• 22:58
  Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
• 22:59
  Speaker B: You know, you have to. You have to do that. I think sometimes you just get caught up as a parent. And I'm guilty of this, too. Wherever you're getting the most reinforcement, Right. That's the kid that you're gravitating towards. But, yep, you could be getting input in other ways, but you have to get to know them to know what that input is.
• 23:20
  Speaker A: Right.
• 23:20
  Speaker B: If you. If you have a kid that's really social and you have a kid that's really anxious and maybe not so social, that kid might be seeming like they're irritated, but they just don't know how to get in your space and connect with you. That's our job. We have to figure that out. It's your job.
• 23:36
  Speaker A: You're the leader. Like I always say, like, you know, kid, like, there's that funny comedian that goes, I'm a. I like, I birth these children and they these things and they think I'm their leader. No, we are. No, we are their leader. We're the tribal leader of these kids.
• 23:48
  Speaker B: Right, Right. And we don't know what we're doing.
• 23:51
  Speaker A: So we're like, understand them.
• 23:53
  Speaker B: That's right. We have to get to know our kids. And I think too, you know, whenever I see. And I see. You know, we do a lot of, like, parent events and stuff, and I always say that that parent is scared. We have to make sure they're not scared, you know. Right. We have to put them in charge. This is still your. This is still your. Your kid here. They. They're so. It's all. It's all I try to make sure. My biggest legacy I ever want to leave behind is you're the parent here and you're running the show. Make it your show. Give these kids what they deserve.
• 24:27
  Speaker A: Make it your show.
• 24:29
  Speaker B: Make it your show.
• 24:30
  Speaker A: We're all the star of our Broadway musical.
• 24:32
  Speaker B: That's right.
• 24:32
  Speaker A: We're all the star in center stage.
• 24:35
  Speaker B: That's right. So I try to encourage new parents that come to me. I try to encourage that. I try to get them hooked up with moms that I think can support. And I have to say, you know, a lot of people come back are like, you know, thanks so much that, that really made a difference. I really didn't look at it that way. I never thought that they would, they would play a sport. You know, you could play a sport and not be verbal. You could have full communication and be captain of a team. Right. We have kids doing amazing things. So I, I think that that is. That's the biggest, the biggest push that I'm. That I'm always going to push. And, and I think I'm able to do that for lots of reasons. You meet tons of people. You learn from all of these people. And, you know, we learn a ton from our kids. We rarely have any two. I don't have any kids that were ever alike. Tons of siblings, tons of cousins.
• 25:26
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 25:27
  Speaker B: You know, they're all different. Everybody.
• 25:29
  Speaker A: They're all different and we are all different. And it's, it's leaning into it, getting really quiet and finding those, those things. And you know, when your children are non speaking, you know, you have to get extra interested and curious about their nonverbal cues. Right. And. Or as you've seen, like, Millie. Millie has taken to, you know, a talker and an aac. I mean, her, her usage of it now is like, it's insane. Mac wants nothing to do with it. And so there's a lot of just remembering too, that like how they, even when you get quiet and understand their nonverbal and choices to learn are going to look different too. You know, they all love their one shows. Every kid loves, you know, a certain show, whatever. Millie went from Daniel Tiger, and now it's super wide. It's pbs, whatever. Mac is still Daniel Tiger. If you put on Daniel Tiger after school, Millie gets her talker, plops on the couch, looks up at you and goes, frustrated, frustrated, frustrated, frustrated. And I look at her and I go. Because I know her receptive language is 100%. I go, the wild irony in this, Millie, is that about like no less than two years ago, you were so obsessed with Daniel Tiger, the fact that you would be frustrated right now is so ridiculous. If she gets this little smirk on her face, like, no, you're right. And I think to myself, if I didn't assume competence in her, allow her to grow with that talker, allow her brother to like what he likes and have them have, like, they would not be where they are today. And trust me, by all standards, they are well behind what society dictates as a sex hole. But not to me, right? Not to me, right? You know, well, you know your kids personalities and to your point about that and staying curious to that. And you know, Mac as the youngest of the family, that boy knows that he's the youngest. He knows he's the only boy. And he knows he'll use it because I whisper to him, I literally just, I just. He knows it. I don't care. He can't speak. He frickin knows it. And he can give me kisses and I'm like, oh, all right, more Pirate's booty. Fine, fine. But like that he knows it. He's playing. Example is the same. But like, but he's always been like that. I mean, even at his new school, the teacher at their first like 30 day IEP meeting goes, I just have to say that little boy knows that he wants to come snuggle and he comes and puts his cheek on yours because the song, he wants to hear their song. Nonverbal communication. These kids, they've mastered it. He knows how darn cute he is and he uses that. And Millie is like, I'm gonna stomp on in here like a bull in a china shop and you're gonna give me Peppa Pig for God's sakes.
• 28:06
  Speaker B: And they're like, she's true to herself, that's for sure.
• 28:10
  Speaker A: I mean, she hasn't. The glasses only help whenever they fall down. And she's. I use it as. The example is that they are so different even in their autism, they are so different in their non speaking diagnoses. And I hope that the example of mine allows others to say, if you stay curious, trust me, their personalities are going to come out. But it's going to look so different than what we ever anticipated.
• 28:32
  Speaker B: You have to give the time. You have to give it the. You have to give it the time, and you have to get through all the. You know, you got to get through all the shitty parts to get to the good part.
• 28:42
  Speaker A: Yes. So tell me again what the slogan is, because I think I want to hear you say it again. You tell all parents to make your own show. Is that it?
• 28:49
  Speaker B: I tell my. Like, this is your show. You have to make it. You write, this is your. This is your book. You gotta write it. Your chapter. You know, I. I tell the same thing. My kids that are in high school. Listen, you got a problem, it's your book. Write it the way you want it. You want people. You want people to see it, hear it, and be told. I tell my parents the same thing. You're. You're running this. It could be as. As good as you want it. It's gonna look different than my book. It's gonna look different than the next parent. But you're driving this boat here. You gotta figure out what's gonna work.
• 29:23
  Speaker A: You didn't want to drive a boat. I know.
• 29:25
  Speaker B: Yeah. I didn't sign up for this.
• 29:26
  Speaker A: I didn't want to drive a boat. Yeah. I didn't want to drive a boat. Well, I'm sorry, sister. You're driving. You're in. Figure it out, because the sooner you can and accept that, the more beautiful it'll all seem. And you will think people that are just on the road are just, oh, how silly. They don't understand how amazing the boat ride can be.
• 29:45
  Speaker B: It is.
• 29:46
  Speaker A: Thank you so much for your time. And there's gonna be. I'm have to split this episode because there's too many nuggets of goodness that I want everyone to listen to. And thank you for being my person when I joined this journey and the educational process for both my kids. But thank you for all that you do for those families that are still coming in. They are all so lucky to have you.
• 30:05
  Speaker B: Thank you so much, Sarah. And thanks for reminding me of that. Always thinking of you and your kids.
• 30:11
  Speaker A: Thank you. All right, until next time on the Instruments podcast.