Latest / Upcoming Trial of Nathan Chasing Horse April 14, 2025 / Nathan Chasing Horse is many things; however, women too create trauma bonds in masculinity
Transcript
- Marina Crane: Okay. Well, good afternoon. It's Marina Crane. It's four 3pm on the 30th of March. I keep on forgetting April Fool's is coming up on Wednesday. And my guest here has been ⁓ basically, I keep her anonymous. She's like my, what do you call Aladdin in the lamp, you rub her and she appears. My wish has come true. It's true. So, ⁓ and it's basically been like surrounding and Nathan chasing more. So I'm just letting my guests know that, ⁓ the sentencing was supposed to be April 1st and it's been delayed again. ⁓ no. So April 1st is status update. and, again, what can you do? Right? I think he's delaying the inevitable. He's holding on for dear life onto those prison, those jail bars in Las Vegas. He doesn't want to let go and be put in some penitentiary in the middle of nowhere. Geez. Talk about, talk about, ⁓ like last ditch efforts. but it is what it is. And I was so tempted to, oh, I should just get on a plane, go down there one in the morning, go to the trial, come back in the evening. Michelle, $2,000 to do that. Oh my goodness. What a quick cheese, not that. So much, my goodness. And then on top of that too, just to try and find like a live feed. Like I'm going, okay, a lot of people in Suu Kyi and I want to see it live. So I'm trying to accommodate them by getting as much information as I can, like where the live feed will be. Yeah. And it's not coming from women. It's coming from men who want to see it, which is good. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's great. I'm happy to hear that. I am surprised that the Chief in Council, maybe the ⁓ Soutina police haven't figured out a way to do this as a part of, ⁓ community healing. Okay. I'm just really wicked laugh. I could probably put a bug in someone's ear. Mind you, they won't probably won't listen because they go, ⁓ she's an elder. Well, if it makes you feel better, I know the police don't listen to me either. So, ⁓ yeah, I mean, they're They're cordial and everything, know, just, you're the cordial because they you're like a fly in their ointment or something. Yeah. A bee buzzing around, they're swashing to get rid of me or you or you know, it's amazing. You know, the thing is about advocacy and narratives as Indigenous women is you remember we were talking about battle fatigue? Yeah, racial battle fatigue. Well, that to combat battle fatigue is to take part in activism and narratives. Yes. You do not know that. So even 20 years ago, was really plugging in there, making sure I had a narrative. And the reality of it for me is knowing that as old as I am, I'm still learning. I'm still learning about ⁓ predators. And I'm not talking about Nathan chasing worse. I'm talking about other women. You know, I when I talk about narcissism, and I I've been just focusing on Nathan chasing worse. It didn't occur to me. ⁓ But there's always been this burning question that people keep on asking me, why did it take so long for for people to, ⁓ you know, flag Nathan chasing horse or why didn't these things happen sooner? And ⁓ I think it's because of narcissism. I think it's because of indigenous women who were involved were narcissistic. Because there was one young woman who appeared on the fifth estate from here. ⁓ She met him when she was 14. And the next week, he took her took her three times and sexually assaulted her, took video tapes of her. And, and she had text me because she was having a difficult time just trying to find support. And whatever little support I was to her, because of my previous history, because a lot of people tend to forget or they don't realize that I had like 20 years, I took 20 years for me to actually ⁓ submit a report on my sexual assault, like being sexually assaulted. And so I knew like it's important to document everything. Even if these aren't like, even if it seems like they're not aware, like every time, like even what happened this week, and when I showed you what was sent to me, and they said, there's nothing we can do. ⁓ You have the person who sent you this has to report it themselves. Because apparently, like I'm not on their that person's Facebook feed. And, and, but the reality of it is like, some people are so narcissistic, some women, that that everything revolves around them. And just like Nathan chasing or said to appear that he was this holy person. And I think women You see it, you see in the phenomena of just women today supporting these horrible leaders in all walks of government. And you're wondering, what's the matter with you women? Well, it's because there's some sort of misogyny. I know when I say misogyny, a lot of people don't understand the word, but basically it's women who hate being women or hate other women or Or just maybe they're just so damn depressed about having the having been beaten so many times that they just sort of are complacent and say, why should I give it down? Give it down because nobody cares. Nobody nobody is worried. But but getting back to this young woman, I think for five years, she did collect all the information and bless her heart out of all the girls that all the people who eventually after 20 years realized were victims of Nathan chasing horse this young woman, right from the get go knew she was a victim. Like, like, like, you know, bless her heart. Yeah. And, and, you know, like, it's one thing, it's one thing like for a battered wife to, you know, stay in a dysfunctional relationship, and then realize, I have to find courage to leave him. And then to and then to walk away. But but for for women to just realize like right at the get-go that this person's not something's the matter and just walk away. There are women like I think the women who ⁓ are I don't know what's your stand on that? You know, ⁓ oppression dynamics are really strong. So we have multiple oppression dynamics as Indigenous women. And I think that when you're raised in an environment of oppression dynamics, which we all are as Native people, immediately political the moment we're born, and then as women living in a patriarchy, we have all of this lateral violence that is ⁓ part of the oppression dynamics. And then when we're not aware of oppression dynamics, we are unwillingly, unwittingly part of the problem then and start oppressing others. And so that's why I'm always talking about working on internalized oppression in my world, because if you are not caught like ⁓ aware of this dynamic, then you are going to continue to perpetuate it. And I say that as a disconnected native for the first you know, 20 years of my life. When I became an adult, I was aware there were problems, but it was still before the TRC, so I still hadn't really found the language to describe what is happening. And when I gave birth to my child experiencing systemic racism, you know, understanding the dynamics of the patriarchy versus all of the racism that's in these institutions. I started to understand what know, violence really was when it's women on women or when it's a settler on indigenous person. And because of that, ⁓ I think as you know, indigenous women, we know we can fight with each other. And that's the only people we can fight with. We can't fight with ⁓ white women. We can't fight with settlers. We can't fight with ⁓ women of color. because it's a different dynamic. And so to me, I think that's a lot of the internalized oppression that comes out that we ⁓ perpetuate onto each other. And that's why, like, you'll see a lot of ⁓ women who are pimps because they were pimped and this is the little control they have is to be able to pimp out other women. So that's how come we become a part of the problem. and in these horrible moments of human trafficking and sexual assault and I mean it ultimately even as mothers I have heard mothers say to their daughters after they're sexually assaulted well this is just what happens to us because they have come to understand we have no voice now that I don't believe that's true especially in 2026 and especially in this moment where Nathan chasing horses now finally getting proper do legal course But I also think because he's a native man the legal system was willing to convict him because obviously Jeffrey s Epstein Donald Trump I could talk endlessly about white men that should be in jail that aren't right and so I think part of it is this dynamic that For Nathan because he's native for sure. He's gonna get convicted But the bigger problem with all of the women who support him is that they have it in their head that this is the only fight that they can fight is somebody against you, someone against me. And then that just allows that sexual abuse to continue in this horrific system that, you know, settlers have come over and set up. Yes, because he groomed them to internalize each other, to fight amongst each other because Because again, he's not going to, he is so unsophisticated. Like he's so illegitimate in his understanding of cross-cultural dynamics of any minority or majority that he just does not get it. Like he's perpetually in that state of oppression and he's educating, whether it's mansplaying indigenous women on what it is to be an Indigenous woman and they're just taking it. That's what was so disgusting when, especially that one lady that came here 20 years ago and she says, yeah, Nathan says my daughter's a holy woman. And I'm going, who told you this? Here she is believing Nathan Chasing Horse without even saying to, knowing that I'm Dakota Sioux, knowing I'm old enough to be his parent. just listening to his lies, his manipulation, because she's so insecure. This woman ⁓ has no connection to her reservation, and her connection, her trying to reconnect to Indigenous ways of knowing was through Nathan James Moores. See, your way of connecting has been through reading, activism, you're actually on the ground, fighting the fight, thinking, you yourself and but but there's a whole dynamic of women who who don't have the skill set to do that. You know and maybe also for ⁓ reference you know I want to say this to my family what had happened in my my family is that my grandfather did molest my aunt and went to jail for it and so I see this knowing how many of my aunts and my uncles and now my cousins, my direct cousins, how we've all been affected by this one man and how to navigate that. Like, so for example, when my one cousin got married, ⁓ you know, my aunt did not want him at this wedding no matter what. Now, the wedding already was doomed and it turns out that that's already done, but it's not the point. The point is every major event where you should have your parents there, You know, there's infighting and there's infighting because some people have learned to forgive him and other people have not. So there's always this conflict in between the siblings, my aunts and my uncles, as well as in with my cousins. So, ⁓ like it's important to bring that up because it adds to what you're saying. It adds that value, that intersection of how painful this is when we don't have a proper process of how to deal with that. Yeah. See. See, for me, ⁓ I wouldn't use the word forgiveness. I would say compassion. That's a great way to say it. Yeah, because I think Indian residential school has basically pounded forgiveness into the very existence of our savage upbringing. Like, you you savages have to damn well learn how to forgive each other. And yet as you know, as whatever religion these Indian residential schools were. You know, ritual abuse has been around since the beginning of time and you know you have ⁓ Jewish men priests. You know have these spiritual people even even in India where they're they're just. You know they've had these sexual predators. There's not there's not. Not one. human race on existence can say that they come from a society where there are predators. And for me, I think ⁓ because of Indian Residential School, I try to make the distinction between forgiveness and what's forgivable and compassion. Because what my brother did was unforgivable. And 20 years, like what can I say? He did unforgivable and the same with Nathan Chasinghors. What these two men did to my niece was unforgivable. But to have ⁓ a woman, this one man, like I was so brokenhearted, Michelle, and the only comfort that I got, I shouldn't say comfort, but it was just, I needed that straightforward kind of talking to like, in other words, wake up Marina. you know, because I, he, you know, I thanked him for, for, you know, holding space for me. says, of course, anytime. And pardon my French, but that bitch can fuck off LMAO. She must be incredibly hurt, jealous, lonely. If, this is how she, she chooses to spend her time, be, be thankful you are not, you don't have the have to live with that kind of hate in your heart. Like it took that direct message for me, because throughout and the thing about like, again, I go back to narcissistic grandiose, what they call meta. ⁓ what's there's there's a Michael Micabele. Okay. ⁓ Okay. So the individual who sent me this has the capacity to report what she sent me. Didn't do that. ⁓ She doesn't have the capacity to say, I'm sorry, I sent it to you. I'm sorry it hurt you. It's one thing why I think this podcast is important for me is because it was one thing I focused so much on Nathan chasing horse. I was talking with one lady before I left. She bought me a cup of tea and I was with my traveling companion and she made some sort of comment about ⁓ we were talking, I was disclosing this post that I received and how it really hurt me and because she knows that these people, dynamics of it. And she, she said, I said to her, for 20 years, I've been frozen, like frozen in this narrative of they said, chasing horse warning people about him. Now that he's been found guilty and sentencing, I'm not frozen anymore. However, I didn't realize that I was frozen in the relationship with other indigenous women who were just like him. Narcissistic and that what do call it again? Mark? What did I? Michael Mike Abellium. You know, just focused on money, money set like, you know, they have no compassion for other people. And I think that's a shame because when women have that type of behavior, and they've used it as a coping mechanism of traumatic bonds with other women, that when children come along, they hurt their own children and other children in the community. That's why it took so long for my community to be aware of what Nathan Chasing Horse was doing. Not just my community, all other Indigenous communities in Canada and the United States, because of us women. Yeah, it's not right. But, ⁓ you know, that's the part of trying to teach people when, so I'll just say this about Indigenous life is that, you know, if you're at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder and you have somebody who's treating you well, you are such a financial dependency, ⁓ financial abusive situation that it is so easy to, you know, fall for. whatever lies you're being taught, like grooming in general, I guess, is what I'm trying to say about sexual assault and such, where it's easy to be manipulated when you have not a lot of choices in front of you. And I think that's why I'm a big advocate for, you know, a basic income, because if you had a basic income and you wouldn't have to put up with some of these lies, but ⁓ complicating this is of course the purposeful disconnection of Indigenous people to their culture and you and I both know that culture is prevention. So you as an Indigenous person meaningfully go out to find a healer and this healer then is a groomer, then manipulates you and that's wrong too. So it's really problematic because we need to heal but we don't really have the proper avenues that allow us to do that healing. And then worse, we're not in a financial position to be able to see that we're almost groomed from the get-go. So yeah, that's just some kind of some thoughts to add to that. Well, even a deeper take for it would be like prior to the white men coming over, you know, I'm pretty damn sure my ancestors knew how to deal with predators. You know, and but the fact is like whatever ⁓ status predators had within the community, I'm pretty damn sure that we weren't stupid and naive to say, well, we'll just let it happen. I mean, I grew up like I try to explain this to people. I grew up with my aunts and uncles and my grandparents openly talking about men who were perpetrators. Like relatives, like you said, your grandfather, you know, in small communities, we know and we talk about it. ⁓ That's why when Nathan chasing horse came into the community, I immediately started emailing some people, magazines or news articles that had published in in South Dakota to try and you know, get some some find somebody who knew him. ⁓ I again, even if I did from. What understand what happened in Las Vegas was he had even professionals running to support him. it. I mean, I experienced that here in, you know, psychologists and social workers supporting him. You know, our leadership was supporting him. And ⁓ and the reality is like, how come you supporting him? You haven't grown up with him. Yeah. The basic human instinct. is you grow up with people, you should damn well know there's common traits in every human being. Doesn't have to come from outer space to be like, ⁓ my goodness, he's got some special gift. I'm just like, ⁓ no, please. I know it's hard. I think it's a real reflection of colonialism that has caused this issue of us going to unhealthy spiritual advisors, but also colonialism teaching spiritual advisors that somehow okay to misuse their position of power. ⁓ You know, we learn from the best. can we say? Well, even like whatever, ⁓ what do call it? ⁓ I'm not professional, even paraprofessional, like whatever understanding of psychology that I have, there are people, Indigenous people who do have limited psychological experience, who manipulate and do the same damn thing as Nathan Chasinghors. You know, it's crazy, it's insane. I think there's also that age gap or that intergenerational, we'll call it, there's a space, we'll call it the Twilight Zone. There is a zone. See, for me, ⁓ when I talk to my peers, I'll say, yeah, I had a travel companion who is a white European male, handsome white European male. Now, okay. definition of handsome is another thing that I have a definition of too. But we'll get back to ⁓ talking to my cousin and she says, says, Marina, you you disclose too much to him. And I said to see, see, for me, the in this Twilight Zone, this difference between generations is, is the younger generation uses pronouns, you know, like his, her, they, them, and it's to identify their sexual preference, because there are too many people out there hurting each other. So when I'm open about my sexual life, I don't believe it's disclosing too much. I believe it's letting the fellow know that I'm heterosexual, like that, you know, this is who I am. Can't switch it off, can't switch it on. This is who I am. I don't think a lot of people my age get it. So they suppress their sexual desires and then only when they go out with other women or something that they... Like it's really nasty. It's nasty because why try and climb that mountain? It's an invisible mountain. You can't reach Mount Everest, I'm sorry. But as women we... We're constantly, ⁓ you know, like, ⁓ I'm with this handsome man. Well, excuse me. I told you my definition of handsome is totally different than your definition of handsome. My definition of what I will put up with is different than what your definition of what you'll put up with. That is true, too, isn't it? You know, and the thing is, like when I talk to men, ⁓ I'm just straightforward with them. I, you know, even in Las Vegas, when I was talking to a group, and we're talking about human sexuality, and these two members listening and, and the one says, ⁓ I don't want I don't want my partner's ears to hear what you're saying. I said, you know, when you when you're not sexually active, there's nothing more you can do but to be talking about sex, human sexuality. Cause that's sexual. That's my libido. I'm sorry, but if you can't handle it, this is who I am. ⁓ my goodness. I think it's funny though. I, you know, honestly, I know we're joking. I know, but there is that bigger picture of talking about healthy sexuality. And I think that, you know, a lot of people have been intimidated for you and your advocacy over the last decades because You are trying to have conversations about what is healthy sexuality? What is ⁓ you know healthy self-esteem self-knowledge And I think that that is an important conversation that yeah, we can joke about it But I wanted to say it on your podcast so that people listening know It's not a bunch of girls giggling. We are trying to have a bigger conversation about what is healthy sexuality in order to try to help The next generation is coming up because we didn't have these conversations When the settlers came because of the way they framed it with the you know Terminology like you were talking about rather than an empathy and compassion its forgiveness like it we're not using the proper language because we're our language was stripped first but second of all that bigger picture that You know, we had great ideas of what sexual health was what healthy relationships were And we haven't been able to fully go back to those ways or realize them simply because we haven't even been allowed to talk about them until now. So I just hope that your listeners are hearing, you know, it is time to have conversations about what is healthy sexuality, what is healthy relationships, and being able to talk about those things in a good way to help our kids so that that way they ⁓ No, they haven't those red flags in their head. Like it's not okay for uncle or auntie to do or say this. And you know, it is important conversation. So I really appreciate you wanting to have them Marina. Yes, because because you know, I struggled. ⁓ My mother was a Indian residential school survivor. And ⁓ most of the topics I tried to talk to her, she chastised me and And again, because I grew up in an integrated system with white people. again, just, it's just as a teenager, ⁓ like my traveling companion, I said to him, when I was younger, I was promiscuous. I said, just like men are promiscuous. I said, you know, because men were allowed to be promiscuous. catch a venereal disease, sow their wild oats, get married to a virgin, rape her on her wedding day or give her a sexually transmitted disease and it was deemed by religion or society, patriarchy, that it was okay because that's a man taking care of his woman, a piece of property. And because when he says, well, you mean to say that you broke these men's hearts? And I looked at him and said, what do you mean broke their hearts? I wanted to have sex. I went out saw found someone had sex came home. Nobody knew who I had sex with. It was my own private business. Like, you know, there's no shame attached to it. Nothing. And yet, and yet, because of society. When I moved back from Utah, in my community, people know that I like I've been single my whole life, they I haven't had a partner, children, like they don't, they've never seen me in a relationship. And, and so even when I go out socializing, if some of these Suchina women come to me, and this is, this is the truth. I'm just minding my own business, having a conversation with another woman, their partner comes up, chastises me and says, leave my wife alone, as if I'm a lesbian, making coming on to their wife. When really it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with the fact that he's so insecure that he damn well knows he beats up his wife and that his wife talking to me might get some notion to leave him. Like that to me is like is has been always an eye opener for me within my community and and the reality too is this whole ⁓ sense of men owning women, especially like with the Indian Act and how the Indian agent had guardianship over men and women. And I think that's why like for two-spirited or even like the pronouns and all that, the corruption of ⁓ the Indian agent or the white patriarchy, the white man is like, you've got to get permission. Like the American Indians would say, you Canadians have to say, your highness, how high do you want me to jump? You know, cause that's the Indian agent, the Indian agent says, Jump six feet. Oh, yes, my Lord. Here I jump six feet. And then when you take away the system, there's no Indian agent and you have the Indigenous man going, oh, how do I own my property? Well, my wife has to listen to me. My wife has to obey everything I say. And if she wants to go anywhere, she's got to get permission from me. And that to me is like, I'm going, no. When I talk about patriarchy, systemic racism, gender apartheid, I've lived it my whole life because even when I'm single, have even members of my own family saying that I'm a lesbian. When I haven't been sexually active, either male or female for decades, just that need to control or label or make it look like I'm not normal. And then this weekend when this lady ⁓ posted horrific stuff about me on Facebook ⁓ about me being a predator, because I support my brother who served time for doing an unforgivable thing to my niece, that I support him. And yet, do they understand the patriarchy behind what I had to fight for? They don't even have the guts or the courage to confront me and ask me. And that's why my white companion, when I said to him, white men, it takes a lot of dialogue, For me to find a white man handsome. Only because of the damage that I see the provincial and federal government. that has done to Indigenous women. And even, ⁓ like I said, my white man companion. Okay, we'll use the word handsome white man companion. So if he's listening, at least he'll forgive me for saying white man. Because I think he took quite offense that I was referring to him as white man all the time. But how am going to use the term when it's a white system, colonial system? that created the Indian Act. It's the colonial system that ⁓ put child and family in our communities under provincial and federal law. We're not sovereign. So, you know, just the fight, just to fight for our children as women and men, you only find it when there's a crisis. Like my cousin, she's worked with child and family for decades. And I've talked to Indigenous women who've worked with child and family services for decades. And the reality of it is like, when the tables are turned and you are the professional who has to make application for your grandchild or someone in your family to be fostered, you have to go through the same hoops, the same hoops because it's run under the provincial and federal guidelines, which is like, how insane is it? You've already proved your worth by working in the system for 20 years with child and family, and you still have to be treated like a criminal. I went through that advocating for my niece and nephew when they were apprehended in the city of Calgary. That's why I take so offense that this woman said I supported my brother, not realizing, you know, I have compassion because he has children. Those children aren't to blame for what he did. And when my niece who wasn't adopted into our family and who wasn't a band member, the chief and council couldn't advocate for her because they have no jurisdiction over her. If she was a band member, they would have said to the province, she's coming back onto Sue Dinna. They didn't. That's why I get so passionate about how our children are being lost in the system, the white system because of the government and... Until Indigenous people either lose their child in the foster care or they go murdered and missing or they're trafficked, it's not until then that they realize the whole scope of it because it's so marginalized, it's so accepted because like, I don't know if it's just Indigenous women being narcissistic or have this Machiavelli attitude that, you know, nothing's going to happen to my children. I'm a good person and yet you're like the denial that you're living under this patriarchy. Yeah, I agree. I couldn't agree more. ⁓ It's a really difficult thing to understand and comprehend. even myself, when I... So I guess a few things. Let's go back to your poor friend who is so sad that you call him a white man. Like, he just doesn't understand his privilege. Like, we've had a different lived experience. ⁓ This is backed by research. We have so much evidence to prove that. And honestly, when... people get offended by the term settler or white, it just absolutely shows their privilege, their lack of understanding of oppression dynamics, their unwillingness to read the Truth and Reconciliation Commission report, or the National Inquiry report, or the multiple reports on child welfare. There's so much there to unpack. Let's start there. And the solutions are there. We've been advocating as ⁓ people for decades. In 1996, the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples had over 444 recommendations. And if you stop the average person on the street, they don't even know that there was a Royal Commission, let alone that there were solutions. So, you know, it just says a lot about people's lack of willingness to do, you know, anti-racism training and understand sexism, et cetera. And let's also add that... their unwillingness to learn the solutions that have been available and given to them in multiple reports over the course of decades. So ⁓ to not listen to you and your lived experience also shows that unfortunately white supremacy. So a lot of people think white supremacy is, know, KKK people going around in white sheets, but it's actually the very basic of it is I'm better than you. And I feel that all the time. I'm mocked. when I talk about settlers regularly and say, know, ⁓ is this poor little dumb squaw's opinion upsetting you? Because I know I'm not dumb, I know I'm not a squaw, but I know that is terminology in their head that they've been taught and they haven't unpacked and therefore feel very superior to us when it comes to talking about basically anything. But I mean, you and your lived experience, especially when talking about all of the issues that you've had to face should be heard. And I hope we're getting better in 2026 at just listening to ⁓ Indigenous elders ⁓ experience. So I value every word you put out there, whether it's rich in our audio. And I hope one day our settler friends, our white friends will learn to appreciate that we were trying to help them. and not take it so personal and as an attack. Yes, because even though I'm talking to my white companion, okay, my handsome white companion, okay, excuse me, you know that whatever he's feeling hurt. When this lady who posted this horrific thing about me, I met her before I went down to Las Vegas. And the people who organized the meeting offered me tobacco. So I said prayers. And I could already feel the tension with her and some other people. And rightfully so, their trauma bonds with the Indian Residential School Memorial and stuff. that wasn't, for me, whatever I was saying was only trying to help them navigate solutions to their anger. Did not know this woman. And after they all left the liaison for the indigenous, the Aboriginal Indigenous Liaison for the Confluence, I said, did you, I said to him, did you see how they treated me? Like as an elder, an elder who was given tobacco. Like, like I want people to understand this, because I'm going to say this to people who give me tobacco. When you give a female elder tobacco, you sure as hell better protect her from misogyny, because it's ingrained so deep. I said to that man, said, I said, saw how they treated me? Because they even asked their sarcastic, what's misogyny? What's this? And they're in their 40s. And the guy turned to me says, you know, he says, any elder would have just walked out. Now, even that to the organizers who invited me didn't apologize didn't protect me. Then I got an invitation to go down to City Hall on the 20th. And there was this lady. taking pictures and then she posted, my brother went down to support it because there was just so much controversy about it that, you know, the more the merrier and in demonstrating to the deniers of Indian residential school that these things did happen. You know, my brother says when he was in Indian residential school in Cardston, he said not far away from the residential school, there were burials. He said the burial grounds were caved in. He says, and you could see the They didn't have coffins. He said, you could see the outlines of their bodies in those coffins, in that grave. Like how horrific is that for my brother, who was just a child to see that at this Indian residential school where he was shipped to? So that's why he went down there. He went down there because things that happened to him in there affected him throughout his whole life with trauma. Like just like the to the point where he became a perpetrator. And for this woman to say, ⁓ you know, he should be banished for what he did. Marina for supporting him, she's a pedophile as well. And it just broke my heart because I thought the hate like I said, what that man said, the hate that she has in her heart. So even When I talk about this handsome companion, white man, and if he takes offense, imagine me having to deal with an Indigenous young woman who is so deeply offended by my speaking the truth and my having the compassion to stand up to her and other young Indigenous people. Like that's what I was trying to say to him. the, because he was trying to say that it was somehow like, like a deeper psychological thing. And I'm going, yes, I know it is. I know it is I live it. But as a man, even if it's even if it's a traditional indigenous man who's offered tobacco, they don't need the same protection as an indigenous elder woman. Like that's the reality of it. Because like that ⁓ indigenous liaison, he said any indigenous woman, indigenous per elder would have walked away. And because I grew up around white people and my uncles are white, on my mom's side. ⁓ and I have white friends. If I had racism in my heart, I wouldn't be standing my grounds with young Indigenous people who just hate every word that comes out of my mouth. Yeah, because, you know, it's like I know, ⁓ again, my handsome companion, da da da, you know, he said, you know, it's, happens everywhere in society in the world. I know that. But but for me, ⁓ I think it was just the whole day of meeting the survivors of Nathan chasing horse, even even to the point to where I just have come to like a full circle, like I said to this lady that this traveling companion of mine met, I said, for 20 years, I believe I was frozen, advocating. Now I don't have to. I what do you mean frozen? See, so when you listen to my story, when I say I don't have to be frozen anymore, knowing the whole. you know, story of what I went through. What do you, what do you think? It's sort of an evolution of self I know, but I think I appreciate your vulnerability. I appreciate you being open about how it feels. think that people don't understand the gravity of this at all. So I hope you know I have a deep compassion for you being open and honest, knowing how often you were blown off for how many decades by how many people about the gravity of this issue. It's, ⁓ I think the unfreezing or the thawing out is that these women had come up to me and hugged me and shook my hand and thanked me for advocating for them, even though I didn't know who they were. Yeah. And that because a lot of people don't realize that when you're involved in a cult, the only way to dismantle a cult is for the followers to leave and for them to rally around my blog, to rally around the narrative that I had talked about and for them to thank me that they were able to find courage amongst each other to leave him and to testify in court against him. I'm sorry. See, the reality, ⁓ Michelle, ⁓ sorry, I'm trying to keep you anonymous. Beep, beep, beep. The irony of it is, ⁓ or the gravity of it is like ⁓ the horror, the sheer horror of it. It's one thing for me to explain to them that my niece, because of the unforgivable acts done to her. became a danger to herself and others. These women only met her once and I had to explain to them how dangerous she became. ⁓ And the fact that these women, like I said, one of the ladies knew him since she was 14. The other one, I think, knew him for 25 years. they were actively supporting him. ⁓ they explained, it's one thing for me to say when I was growing up and I would see all this abuse that that indigenous women were taken from their husbands. I thought, I don't want to ever be a battered woman. I don't want to ever be in a relationship where some man is cheating on me and there's jealousy and all this stuff. I didn't want that. And at the same time, too, I always wondered why women stayed with their abusers. the control that men have. It's just that, like, I can only say the tip of the iceberg because I only saw family violence from my perspective as a child. The reality of it is, with Nathan Chasing Horse, is that... They're adults actively engaged in this. like actively engaged in things because when he was arrested, how they explained it to me was there were state charges and there were federal charges. And the men who supported him, the ones who stayed in my home, the ones that was going to give what they call ⁓ amnesty or protection to be witness against Nathan. And this is a man, this is a Greek man. who Nathan had adopted as his brother. So if the state was charging him, this man would get amnesty. But the state of Utah, not Utah, Nevada said, no, it's gonna be state, no federal charges. So that's what he's being sentenced with. I'm curious to find out like what the federal... charges are going to lay federal charges after he's sentenced to a penitentiary. Because that would have to have some connection to those followers that groom those girls and set them up. really sorry. ⁓ I think he's well aware of those federal charges that are looming. And I think that's why he's doing every delay tactic that he can possibly do here, as is his lawyer. ⁓ You know, the way the legal system is designed so that that way his legal team can get prolonged in their payments and such. ⁓ You know, so it's a sad reality that the legal system is designed in such a way that really continues to harm its victims. because as victims you just want to see this done. You want to see him permanently in jail and you want to basically move forward and every delay means he's still in control of the narrative. And so I have a deep respect for how hard this system is on the victims. Yeah, I the reality too, is that the victims have been showing up ever since he was arrested. amount of money that they've had to pocket like out of pocket for traveling from California, from Montana, from Arizona, from New Mexico, even Canada. Yeah, like it's, you know, it's, ⁓ and that's just on the state of Nevada. Again, you know, I ⁓ Letting, like I'm not totally, how would I put it? I don't have to advocate and say he's a danger. People know he's a danger now. The reality of it is the victims, the ones who are there being protected by the law, okay, yeah, they are being protected. ⁓ That this isn't over for them. No, like it's, it's, it's gonna be, it's, however they set it up, I hope, I hope they set it up in a, in a way where it's just, you know, like it's done and they don't have to prolong it. Like with the federal charges, I, again, I don't know if that's going to happen. I'm just assuming that, but I'm hoping that it doesn't have to be prolonged for, for those other victims. But yet I do know. there are still people who are still supporting him. Yeah, I know. ⁓ It's hard. And he continues to manipulate them during this process while the victims are still forced to prolong healing. Yeah, I think that's really important to say as well from these folks who, again, have that internalized oppression, that internalized, you know, lateral violence. ⁓ committing lateral violence from that internalized oppression. I think that it's important to point all that out. The thing too is like, I think part of my freezing was being associated with women from my community who were narcissistic, Machiavellian. Yeah. You know, just like, the more they know about Nathan Chasing Horse, the more holier they appear. Because look, we're supporting victims and yet... Where the hell were they? And I don't have to justify myself anymore to them. don't, nor do I need to justify myself to the young women who went away with him, nor to their families. Because, know, Michelle, a lot of the victims, those girls, it's their grandfather who was a serial rapist. He was the one I took to court. So that lateral violence is whether or not ⁓ people understand it in small communities, it's quite hurtful. And for this young woman ⁓ who doesn't even know me, to accuse me of being a criminal. Like I said, she has to live with that hate in her heart. And for each person who's attacked me throughout my life, ⁓ it's taken me the weekend to deal with it. ⁓ It still hurts me. But talking with you and talking to other women, ⁓ it's like my sister said, Marina, you've gone through worse. Don't let this get to you. And yet ⁓ it has to get to me in order for me to move forward. Like too long, we suppress the feelings and deny that it hurts us. because by denying it, then we're not learning anything from it. And, you know, for me, I'm totally grateful to my traveling companion. ⁓ Again, only certain people know, ⁓ like you know about him because you you picked me up at the airport when I came back from Las Vegas. But for me, it's been ⁓ teaching him and educating him because he wanted to learn. He wanted to know whether or not he could stomach what I put out there. That's for him to decide, not me. ⁓ I try and tell people, even when they laugh, the one lady laughed at when I made a comment about my mother. I said, when she first got pregnant, she thought she was going to have a litter of puppies. And this woman with a PhD started laughing ⁓ in a classroom of PhDs. And I said to her, I said to the class, my mother was raised in an Indian residential school. where these people did not love her, did not give a damn about healthy human sexuality, did not give a damn about educating her about sexual reproduction, nothing. And you laugh. That's why when I talk about trauma bonding, limerence, bipolar disorder, ⁓ narcissistic, Machiavellian, like those are white man's terms. And yet, like as a person who's not a psychologist or a social worker, just a person who's lived my own truth is the ability to try and get people to understand. Yes, life isn't meant to be easy. But you know, my mother, my late mother would say, and again, this is coming from the grandmothers. Decades and decades of genocide, decades and decades. You know, when I when I hear about the settlers hunting Sioux women who are pregnant, they created a town in South Dakota, just for scalps, just for Dakota scalps. Lakota Nakota scalps. And they targeted pregnant Sioux women so they could gut them and take the scalps of their babies and the mums. And I think about my grandmothers. And I think about the star, like what they had to do to feed their kids. And I hear my mother saying, creator doesn't want us to give up. Like that genocide, that apartheid. We can talk about all things that happened to women. what's so damned horrible is like 500 years ago, the first 100 years, they estimated they killed five generations of Indigenous kids. That's 120 million children that they murdered. I know, it's not right. And that's why when white people get upset when we call them white, they don't listen to the gravity of what you just said. Yeah, and again, you know, like. When my parents went to South America and India when I was eight and 10, Those things about society and civilization weren't taught in public school or separate school. The ability to be proud of being Indigenous wasn't taught. And even though my parents saw the world, saw how life was, saw all the starvation, all the poverty, there was still that reality that there was something some great mystery in the Americas. Yeah. Like that to me, to me is our legacy. And yeah, I ⁓ like I, you know, I, like I said, I don't have children, I don't have a partner. But but you know, every, every week in the past two months, we've buried our young people from cirrhosis or drug overdose. And today we're having a funeral too. you know, this ⁓ combat fatigue, however I try to ⁓ put it at bay by advocacy or having a narrative, that's like the tribal police said, you have support? And I'm saying, I said to the tribal police, who's Métis, okay, so he wasn't raised in a Métis colony. I said, you've never lived in a collective or holistic community. You know, just like, like, you can worry about me, that's fine. said, for me to have lived as old as I am, even my travel companion, he says, you're more active than my parents. Well, I have to be, I have to be reactive. I've got to keep going because as women, as mammals, as human beings, that's our birthright to, as elder women, is to teach our youth about things that matter the most. But anyway, I just wanted to ask you, like, now that I've stepped back and, you know, taken a break from having ⁓ any further contact with certain people that I had in my life, I think it's that unfreezing part of my life. Sure. You know, just feel ⁓ my whole life, I've had to walk away from people. It's a grieving process, but I've had to do that. Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know it's really hard. I don't know why. I think it's how I talk about community or friendships now, and this is, I haven't lived as long as you, but I just kind of made peace with the fact that sometimes we cross paths with people when we're meant to, and that's it. You know, ⁓ I just, I don't, I'm not sure I understand community and friendships the same way that we've been taught through this colonial media, that's for sure. ⁓ For me personally, I just know we cross paths when we're meant to and we move on at times. And it's great when people can come with you, but most people are like, all on different paths, we're all doing different things. So understandably, we don't stay together all the time. ⁓ That's how I've kind of made peace with it. Well, I feel a lot better talking about this because I don't think this individual would even have the know-how to even get on my podcast and listen to what I have to say. And even if she did, she couldn't even comprehend, you know, what I've just gone through. I don't think so either. And you know what? And here's the thing. I kind of am a believer when it comes to these ⁓ medias that we are meant to be heard when we're meant to be heard and hopefully one day people will hear what you have to say with a better lens, you know, and help other people. I know that your words today will help other people. I know your work and your activism over the decades will help other people as well. So I think it's important that you put it out there for your own peace of mind, but also because This is that moment in time where people are finally learning from Indigenous women, Indigenous elders, and are willing to hear our voice. And so I'm glad that you've put words to a lot of the experience that you've had in the hopes that others can learn. Well, it's like I said, it's been a learning process and ⁓ healthy human sexuality took a hell of long time. You know, and took, you know, I, people can say, ⁓ sacrifice this or sacrifice that, but it's not a sacrifice. It's, it's, It's feeling, that's the word, feeling. Like it's one thing when somebody dies, you can't help but grieve, because even if you try to hide it, it's so deep. And for me, when we go through life on a daily basis and we grieve, I think sometimes we've suppressed it so much. But we can't, we have to pull it out from there, that place. And whatever that place may be, some people might give it a color or dimension or a zone. You still have to pull it out and expose it to the reality of life. When I think about my life and I think someday I'll leave leave just like someday I came here to this life. It's inevitable and yet we don't know what the future holds for us, even tomorrow or the next day. But whatever I can do in creating a narrative, like you said, people come across our paths for a reason. And whatever reason that is, maybe 100 years from now, somebody will look back and hear your podcast and say, that woman, what? She read or she knew how to read a book. I know it's so funny. that that ⁓ as Indigenous women, we both kind of touched on that thread of settlers looking down on us and not assuming we're smart. And, you know, there it is again that like we're talking about this. We see the white supremacy, even though they may not. So I appreciate you bringing it up and talking about it. And hopefully one day we will have more. You know, I always like to give solutions and I'll say this, those 444 recommendations from the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples have not been fully realized. The 94 calls to action have not been fully realized. The 231 calls to justice have not been fully realized. And the United Nations Declaration of Rights of Indigenous People have not been fully realized. You know, for folks who are like, well, I want solutions. Just know they're there. People just don't want to read books like, you know, white fragility, nice racism and all the reports I listed. Or have a twinkle in their eye and that's okay. No, it's not. I'm sorry. Yeah. Well, I enjoyed chatting with you. Thank you for having me, Marina. I'm just going to stop the recording right now. Hold on. Okay, stop.