Latest / The Director's Chair Network / Showgirls
Transcript
- 0:15 Welcome ladies and gentlemen who are watching and or listening to the director's chair. And in this director's 0:22 chair we will look at Paul Ferhovven. My guest at this time the legendary Craig 0:29 Cohen. Craig, how are you doing today? I'm good, Sego. Thank you. Uh, it's always a pleasure to to chat with you 0:35 and more importantly, it's a true pleasure to uh talk the legendary Paul 0:42 Verhovven. Uh, he was a big big uh 0:48 director that I was a fan of when I really started to get into, you know, the the I really really got into with, 0:55 you know, Tarantino. Uh yeah, and maybe like Steven Soderberg. 1:01 Um but yeah, what made him stand out to you? The audacity. I mean, and and I think 1:07 that was the main thing that like I think the European sensibilities and just the audacity, I think, is a good 1:15 word, but you know, you know, no hang-ups, so violence was on the table, 1:22 sex was on the table. uh an overall rawness 1:27 uh but also that sense of satire and I think that's one thing that a lot of people miss with with Verhovven. It's 1:34 amazing to me that somebody can watch like Robocop or even more importantly Starship Troopers and not see the 1:40 satire. Um uh and of course Showgirls isn't a satire on purpose, but 1:51 it kind it's kind of thought of. You have to be it's there's tits everywhere. Um so I made this compiled this little 1:58 list because obviously unlike you you came into contact with Paul for Hovind 2:04 probably around 1985 maybe 1987. 1985 was when Flesh and Blood came out that 2:09 came out in the United States and then 1987 of course was Robocop which basically put him on the map. 2:15 Yeah. And I grew up with Paul for Hovind. Um he 2:22 was the premier director in the country and there was no film industry until 2:27 Paul Verhovven started making movies. That's basically it. He started making movies in the early '7s and he was a big 2:33 part of what was then the Dutch sexual revolution which basically he would just you know make movies to shock people uh 2:42 spice everything up uh because he thought it was all boring and unrealistic and and 2:48 everything was geared towards showing the lives of u doctors and and people of 2:54 the elites. And basically what Paul Verhovven did in his Dutch cinema was basically show what life was like for 3:01 Dutch people, the regular ones, the ones who within go to big schools like he did cuz um people may not know this, but he 3:08 was actually he's actually he has holds master degrees in math and physics. 3:14 So he's a Sheldon basically and it shows whenever you see footage of him 3:20 directing. Mhm. Yeah. He probably has a bathroom schedule. Anyway, so I I made this little compiled 3:26 this little list of um all the complaints people have had about Paul 3:32 Verhovven in Holland over the years. And I was kind of curious to see if this 3:38 holds up compared to your many critics who complain about Paul Verhovven. So 3:43 the critics complain that he's an iconoclast. Number two, he's not a moralist. Most 3:51 movie makers are moralists. He is absolutely not a moralist. All his movies are just bereft of kind of 4:00 any kind of personal opinion. He just shows it for what it is. It's like, hey, I'm making a movie about Nazis and 4:07 they're pretty young people and they go to war. Uh, one of them actually causes 4:13 the war. And so he makes no comment on that. So people assume, oh, because he's not a moralist, he must be the Nazi 4:19 then. That's not exactly true, is it? So, three, he is absolutely obsessed 4:25 with Jesus of Nazareth. Obsessed. He even wrote a book about it. And in all 4:31 his movies, including this one, there is something about Jesus. There is or a in 4:37 this case, there's no Jesus whatsoever because Jesus would not be in Las Vegas 4:42 except to cuddle all the strippers and kick everybody out of the casino because they're users or whatever they are. 4:49 Anyway, so Holland is a artist town, 4:54 right? Over the centuries, we've had quite a few. We've had Rembrandt and we've had Vincent F and Mlan and we had 5:03 a bunch. So throughout the ages, artists like this choose a medium to express 5:10 themselves. And that's something people don't get. This is a artist who absconded his 5:18 parents wishes to become a mathematician in some high school. Instead, he chose 5:23 art. And his art, his canvas was film. Because, as he always argued, if you're 5:29 an artist and you're living in the 20th century, you wouldn't paint. You would have moving pictures. And that's 5:36 something people don't realize. He's painting. His movies are art. 5:43 Yeah. So that would be my top five. So I'm kind of interested in did did this any of this resonate 5:49 with any of the critics throughout his career in the United States. 5:55 I I don't think the films that Verhovven made in America 6:02 really engaged critics enough for them to get deep into his film making uh 6:10 process if you will. I think the only film that really probably got any serious 6:18 critical attention and you know critics at least got the theme behind it was was 6:24 probably Starship Troopers. But aside from that, I mean, I I don't really remember 6:31 critics giving Verhovven any kind of uh consideration 6:38 probably beyond the films he had made prior to coming to America. Uh and it's 6:44 funny because you know, you look at a film like Robocop and it's it's a it's a movie Verhovven famously didn't want to 6:50 make. And uh like most great decisions uh we make in this life, his wife convinced him to uh cuz she clearly saw 6:57 the you know the potential in the script. But I I I think the the main thing that I think 7:04 the gig I think the main thing that that that that critics really didn't didn't get was that like you know 7:10 Robocop not directed by Verhovven. Um it's a very very different film and I 7:17 think that kind of dubtales you see that in the sequels. Yeah. Oh no absolutely. I mean there's one Robocop in my opinion. 7:25 Yeah. And and it's funny because I think it kind of dubtales into Showg Girls in the sense that 7:32 no other filmmaker could have made Showg Girls for good or for bad. U and and I think Joe Essterhos 7:40 definitely needs to be part of this conversation because no other filmmaker uh or screenwriter could have written 7:45 the film. And I do want to sort of get in front of this right away and say by 7:50 no means am I saying that Showg Girls is a great film, but at the same time I'm going to say that I think a lot of 7:57 people consider it a bad film without really taking the time to consider it. And I 8:04 want to say that's fine if if if you think this is Showgirl is a bad movie. It's completely your prerogative. 8:12 That's always a personal taste. Exactly. But I think it, you know, it kind of became a punching bag. Uh, and 8:19 again, by no means am I going to Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. And it, and it's actually, it's actually a a shame 8:27 more than anything else because if you look at it, um, I don't know what the rating system over there is like, 8:33 but I mean, here we've got, you know, the G, PG, PG-13r. And when Showg Girls was coming out, 8:39 there was a big discussion about, you know, creating a rating that would allow 8:45 for more intense film making, you know, and not be X-rated, which was 8:51 The Kiss of Death. So, they came up with this NC I I looked into this. This was purposely 8:57 NC7. Yes. And and and ironically, the most expensive NC17 9:03 movie ever made. Well, because yeah, because this pretty much killed 9:08 the NC17 rating from a theatrical exhibition perspective. I mean, there 9:14 were even, you know, theaters that refused to carry it anyway. Um, and I 9:19 think the whole thing was a, you know, Yeah. And and and it's it's funny because if you watch the movie 9:27 and and I don't know if it's it's it's just the fact that I don't really watch movies through that 9:33 lens, but I mean there's nothing in this film that 9:39 doesn't seem any more extreme than what you'd see in a typical R-rated film. 9:46 I don't think so. But this movie, this movie got people's feathers ruffled 9:54 and that was the whole point. That's what Paul Forhovven does. That's 9:59 Yeah. Well, and I think that's what makes him happy in some way. I still think he wants recognition and I still think he wants 10:05 people to see his art for what it is, but in reality, I think he does this stuff and he dials it up to 10 because 10:12 that's what he's doing here. He's dialing it up. I mean, every bit everything he does is hyperbolic. Everything from the lighting to the way 10:20 it's shot to uh the way the shots are panned, uh all the noise to all the tits 10:26 everywhere, the full frontal nudity, the way the dialogue is clipped because it's all very clipped dialogue. I don't know 10:32 if you've noticed, but it's not like people have long stretched out sentences. This isn't the king's speech, 10:38 right? So, this is all on purpose. This is all Paul Verhovven trying to show you 10:43 what Las Vegas is really like. It's not your dream. It is a sex industry. It's 10:50 brutal. And it's a a m an industrial machine to turn uh your vices into money 10:58 for the people who own it. And that's what this entire movie is about. 11:03 And yeah, who functions in that? Well, and that's the main critique that I liked uh that I 11:10 think Paul Farhovven likes as well is like the the it's almost you could put it as a tagline for the movie show 11:16 girls. It's about surviving in a world populated by [ __ ] 11:22 because that's what it is. Everybody in that movie is an absolute [ __ ] except one person. 11:28 Yep. Molly. Molly. And that's interesting 11:33 um because we all know Verhovven and we all know how he works with dreams and how he kind of messes with reality. You 11:40 never know if it's real or not. You never know if if the m if the protagonist is is because they're always 11:46 unreliable. All all his protagonists are all unreliable. Robocop is an unreliable 11:51 narrator because he gets switched off, right? Uh Total Recall, Doug has 11:57 basically been brainwashed. He's unreliable. uh basic instincts. Shooter is drunk all the time, 12:03 right? The Michael Douglas's character. He's drunk all the time. He's unreliable. I mean, he gets into bed 12:08 with a serial killer. He's nuts, right? And ironically, what people complain 12:13 about about Show Girls, you know, the the way people are screaming at each other and how it's all so unrealistic. 12:20 Okay, so look at Basic Instinct, which is considered a genre classic. They're 12:25 doing the same thing. That's just his style. That's just you have to accept it. It's just Paul Verhovven films it 12:31 this way. It's just going to happen and nobody's going to tell him different because Paul Verhovven is the master of his own art. There's no way. And of 12:38 course this is Paul Verhovven at the height at the peak of very peak of his powers, right? He had hit after hit 12:43 after hit. So now he gets to make the movie he wants to make. That's always typical of great directors, right? They 12:50 they they build on their legacy and then finally they get to make a movie that is just so ambitious that they're scared of 12:58 it and it's something them. 13:04 Yeah. Well, every name a director, they've all done this. It's they all have like this this 13:10 Yeah. Titanic of a movie. Yeah. Well, no. And that's the most remarkable thing about this movie is 13:17 because I'm always amazed that this movie even 13:23 got made at the level it got made. It's it's a big budget exploitation movie at 13:29 the end of the day. And the fact that on purpose Verhovven and uh Esther House were able 13:37 to sell MGM on this idea, that must have been a heck of a pitch meeting. And you 13:43 know, I think a lot of it is I think very simply Paul Hovind was 13:49 printing money. Well, yeah. Well, no, especially, you know, all he had to do was say, "Hey, Joe Hester House is a great script. It's 13:56 going to be out show about Show Girls in Vegas." They were like, "How much money do you need?" 14:01 Yeah. How much money do you need? I mean, after Robocop, after Total Recall, after 14:06 u Basic Instinct, how much money do you need, Paul? We love your stuff because you're making us rich. I think that's 14:13 and then they got the final product and I mean there was some scuttlebutt before 14:20 of course because he actually negotiated to get the NC17 rating because he wanted to make 14:26 a movie like this. Yeah. He wanted to make a big budget movie that was for adults. 14:33 Yeah. This wasn't for kids. It's not intended for kids. It's not intended for for um the weak of heart 14:42 because it's a serious subject to him, a very serious subject because this is basically about uh exploiting women and 14:50 there's a theme, a common thread throughout all his movies from the very first which was about prostitution in in 14:57 the red light district to the last one he's made up till now which is Benadeta. 15:02 It's always about violence against women. He's depicting it. And this one is kind 15:10 of in the middle. And if you look at it from the first one to Benardeta, it fits 15:15 right in the theme. Yeah. It just fits right in. It's just the way he sees it. And it's like, okay, this is 15:20 what I'm going to make. I'm not going to make anything else. And when he does make something other people want that 15:26 he's not all on board in, then you get Hollow Man. Yeah. 15:32 Yeah. Which which I will cover at some point. Yeah. Oh, show girls. Yeah. Okay. So, 15:37 basically what he did was he said, "Okay, um, instead of paying me 7 15:42 million, just give me points on the back end, right?" Which is smart because this movie made a ton of money. That's 15:49 something people don't want to admit to because they're always clamoring, well, you know, it did bad at the box office. 15:55 It didn't do bad at the box office. It wasn't in enough theaters. It was only in 1300 theaters when there was a 16:02 at that time you had like 2500 to 3,000 right? So it still came in second on opening 16:09 weekend behind seven. If it had had all the theaters it would have still been in second place 16:16 but it would have made more money opening weekend and then it would have made its money back easy because it 16:21 would have been break even right out of the gate. But a phenomenon called licensing and 16:29 distribution which is like uh hard copy sales of VH test tapes and DVD sales and 16:35 Blu-ray shows a very different picture. This is the one of the if not the best seller for MGM. This makes more money 16:42 than Bond. This is there are like a 100 million in the plus. So Paul for Hovind 16:49 did okay on this and when people claim yeah it was a failure critical failure really all I 16:56 mean that was his intention to piss off the critics that's why he made a movie like this right why else would you 17:03 otherwise he would have put stuff in there like he would have made it Oscar bait he could have made it very tragic 17:09 right and then it would have been Oscar bait but it's not instead we got what we got because Fhovven loves this 17:17 Yeah. And and and I think the the the biggest 17:23 historical complaint with this movie uh and Verhovven has since sort of gone on 17:29 record and taken full ownership of this and and apologized um 17:36 is really Elizabeth Berkeley's performance. Poor Beth. Poor Beth. 17:41 And I Yeah. A and I think that's sort of what really 17:49 redirects this movie into, for lack of a better word, like camp territory. 17:55 And it it's funny because anytime you watch a performance in a movie, and we 18:01 talked about this on Ryan's Michael Man coverage with uh Al Puccini, 18:07 uh especially in Heat, is when an actor is doing something, 18:12 uh there's two things going on. Either it's at the director's sort of suggestion or the director's okay with 18:20 it. In the case of Showgirls, it was a spec specific performance he wanted 18:26 Elizabeth Berkeley to deliver. Otherwise, he would have either fired 18:31 her or she would have had to do a new take because he's famous for that. He would keep you in the room for two days. 18:37 Yeah, he's done that. Well, well, well, and the the problem the problem here, though, is 18:44 this movie pretty much ended Berkeley's mainstream film career. 18:52 So, you can't even say go back and look and let her work sort of speak for her abilities as an actress because nobody's 18:58 ever really gotten to see it Beyonce by the Bell, you know? So, it's it's kind of funny that like uh 19:04 Well, she was in the first Wives Club. Well, yeah. And she actually got good reviews for that. So, not really that. 19:11 But I mean, but I mean, if you ask the average Joe on the street, you know, they're they're going to say not a good 19:17 actress. But I mean, it it's it's funny though when you watch when you watch the 19:22 movie, obviously, she was 100% committed to the performance. Uh, it's a very 19:28 physical performance. Um, I I'm not Yeah. Well, yeah. And I'm not a dancer 19:34 and I, you know, I don't I don't have the the eye to to sort of, you know, be beyond establishing if somebody's got 19:40 rhythm or not, but, you know, all the talk about her being a natural a natural talent and things like that, I buy it. 19:47 Um, Sure. So, yeah. Yeah, I mean it's it it's funny that like the the cheapest shot 19:53 somebody can take of this movie is is is the performances and I think if you want to explain Elizabeth 20:01 Berkeley's performance, you have to explain the theme of this movie 20:07 and then you get into vague territory because this whole thing might just be a dream. This might just be a dream of a 20:14 hooker somewhere who dreams about going to Las Vegas and making it as a 20:19 showgirl. Because if you really look at what happens to her throughout the story, which is kind of 20:27 disjointed in many ways, everybody's out together, right? 20:32 Everybody is is is an adversary except the one person who isn't. 20:38 and she basically has to like do whatever she can, exploit anybody she 20:43 possibly can, gain any advantage she can get in order to get ahead and to win. 20:49 And when she finally wins, she realizes people still think I'm a [ __ ] Because 20:54 that's the theme of this movie. It's about a a girl who doesn't want to be a prostitute anymore. And this is her 21:00 dream. At least she thinks she can escape from that life and from her past 21:05 by reinventing herself as this star showg girl. And it could all be a dream 21:11 because it ends the way it begins even with the same guy because that's how the movie starts. 21:16 It's a girl. She looks good in jeans. She sticks out her thumb to hitchhike. 21:21 It's somewhere, I don't know, in the Rocky Mountain somewhere. I don't know where it is. Looked cold. And so this 21:27 dude picks her up, right? And the minute she gets in the car, she kind of sees 21:36 kind of sizes him up. It's like, what? Who am I getting in the car with? Is he Is he going to cut me into little pieces? Uh, what does he want? Right? Is 21:43 it am I just getting a ride here? And so the minute he says something she 21:48 doesn't like, she whips out a switchblade. And that's the introduction of the character. And that's also the ending of 21:55 the movie. So, this is either a dream or this character because this is a 22:01 character-driven movie because this is not a story. Not really. It's nonsense. It's a child childish dream. 22:08 I This character has no no arc. There's no learning curve here. There's nothing. There's when you start and when you 22:14 finish, it's basically the same thing. It's like the girl learns nothing. Okay, I'm coming into this town to stop being 22:22 a [ __ ] but this town is all about exploiting her as a prostitute. 22:29 That's the theme of the movie. So for Hovind specifically directed her to have this 22:38 reaction to everybody, right? Everybody she meets, she's as soon as she finds this person 22:45 objectionable in some way, they treat her like a piece of meat, 22:51 she just goes off. She just turns into um evil [ __ ] But the minute these 22:57 people are nice to her and see something in her like, oh, you might be you might have some talent or you might be a star or you might you're you're you might be 23:05 a lot nicer than than you look. Then she becomes this like almost childlike like 23:11 like um almost giddy little girl like this teenager who just wants to eat 23:17 potato chips and have hamburgers and enjoy herself, right? So there's this like extreme and in my opinion 23:27 those reactions, you have those basic reactions when you're dreaming. 23:34 So that's what I think is going on here. It's just it's not on the nose 23:40 and usually Forhovven is a little bit more on the nose with things. Robocop is on the nose. I'm making a movie about uh 23:48 Jesus. That's what Robocop is. It's about the resurrection of Jesus. It's about a guy. He gets crucified and he's 23:55 resurrected as a robot and he he um becomes something else and finally he 24:02 finds himself and becomes Jesus of Nazareth. That's for Hovven's obsession. 24:07 Same with Total Recall. It's a dream. Duck Wade in reality is probably in some 24:12 hospital getting lobtomized as we talked about it, you know, when we talked about this movie. So, same here. So, here's 24:20 Elizabeth Berkeley being lambasted for being a bad actress and she's not lambasted for anything else because this 24:26 this this chick is hot. I mean, um, this is one of the most beautiful women I've 24:32 ever seen on screen ever. This girl can take her clothes off and 24:38 she's perfect. Yeah. And that's what Verhovven saw. He's painting a nude. What do artists do? 24:44 They paint nudes. But when it's a painting, then everybody's admiring it. It's like, "Oh, they're worshiping this 24:51 this nude." But when it's a moving picture, then it's somehow dirty, wrong. the actress's fault. 24:59 Interesting reaction. And that's what Paul Forhovven was after in my opinion. 25:05 Yeah. Well, no. And it's it's interesting, too, because one of the sort of things that lends credence to 25:10 your theory is that for all the [ __ ] she brings to situations, 25:17 people just can't help but embrace her and bring her in and try and give her um 25:25 give her opportunities where at the end of the day, you'd be like, "Yes." Yeah. You know what? You know, it's just 25:31 easier not to deal with this [ __ ] You know what I mean? like and the fact that you know she's the center of everyone's universe 25:39 does lend credence to this but at the same time I' I'd like to say sort of that 25:45 it's interesting and and it's one of the things that I think is is uh the most interesting thing about the 25:51 collaborations between Esther Hos and Verhovven is 25:57 uh Esther Hos has never been a subtle screenwriter you know um he's kind of a 26:02 a beach over over the head type of guy. Um, I I I I love him as a screenwriter and 26:09 and I think he's an important part of the Hollywood screenwriter story. Um, and it's kind of unfortunate that a lot 26:15 of screenwriters didn't sort of take the lead from him and really fight for themselves and and fight for the art of 26:21 screenwriting and and fight for their place in in telling stories. Uh, Esther House at one point was the 26:27 highest paid screenwriter ever. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think that um 26:34 you know it's it's funny because I think a lot of screenwriters resented him uh and that's and that's probably why uh 26:42 but he earned every cent of every you know dollar that he made. But the funny 26:47 thing I think is with with Verhovven and and Esther Hos as a as a filmmaking 26:53 partnership, if you will, is the way that Verhovven interprets Esther 27:00 Hos's scripts. Um, and it's funny because, um, it's been a while since I've read it, but um, 27:07 Esther Hos has written a couple of biographies or autobiographies. Uh, one of them is American Animal. Um, 27:15 right. and or Holly W what's it called? Hollywood Animal. I think Hollywood Elm 27:21 either way. And he goes into detail, heavy detail about all of his films, including Basic Instinct and Showg 27:28 Girls. And you know, he's very much on the record as not agreeing with some of the choices that Verhovven made, but uh 27:35 which is funny because like you said, Verhovven's interpretation adds 27:42 a level to the film that wouldn't have been there if another director had picked up the script and made it. Uh but 27:48 at the same time, Esther Hos was writing a script that he knew Verhovven was gonna direct. So, uh 27:56 so yeah. Yeah. I mean, they were in cahoots. They were giddy with this stuff. It's 28:02 obvious. I It shows it obviously. Here's an interesting thing. When asked Verhovven at some 28:10 point said well if you look at Ingmar Burkeman movies Ingmar Burkeman always said that film 28:17 making is always instinct everything you do is instinct you make choices and 28:22 those choices are whatever they are and here's the mathematician saying this 28:28 it's like there's nothing you to calculate here you just go with your goods and so he says throughout through 28:34 this movie I learned that you know I'm right 80% of the time, not 100. 28:41 I mean, if you look at how he started and and what if it's just started, if he 28:47 how he how he made his start in the States, it was with Robocop and they had like this huge problem 28:53 finding the right actor, right? Because the studios wanted Schwarzenegger because they were thinking Terminator. 29:00 And he said, and obviously he's like, "No, it's not going to work because because of the suit. we need a really 29:06 thin guy otherwise he won't fit in the suit. So they were like yeah yeah yeah so at some point Michael Ironside you 29:12 know because for Hovven always wanted to work with him and so and they ended up with Weller 29:20 probably for the same reason why they ended up with Elizabeth Berkeley uh an 29:25 unknown and probably the same reason why they picked Gina Gerson. Um, American actors 29:33 have a hard time getting it, have a hard time understanding what Paul Forhovven 29:39 wants. And that's how you make a movie work. It's is a director 29:44 uh convincing his actors what kind of movie they're in. And once they know 29:49 what movie they're in, then it's fine. Then they find their character. Um, and 29:55 in in the case of Gina Gershan, it's obvious because she carries this movie, 30:01 right? Her her she's really convincing as Crystal and she's like the the 30:08 nemesis slash older sister slash whatever it is. It's it's um the main 30:16 character is basically looking at her future as a showgirl when she looks at Crystal. And at first she looks at her 30:22 and thinks, "Wow, she's a goddess. That's what I want." But that's now how Crystal is acting 30:28 throughout this, right? She always has this like kind of like a sardonic little smile and she doesn't really take 30:35 anything seriously. And like everyone else, she's looking for a way out in 30:41 that Verhovven has a great gift for casting the right people. 30:48 And people complain about Elizabeth Berkeley, but I think she was perfectly cast for this because that's precisely 30:53 the person he wanted. Someone who seems somehow innocent 31:00 but also completely completely evil. Because if you look at the actions of 31:06 Nomi and we'll get into the name in a minute. If you look at her actions, 31:12 she's not a really good person, is she? There's nothing in her actions that are, 31:18 you know, remotely redeemable from the get-go. I mean, she whips out a 31:23 a a switchblade at a person giving her a ride. I'd kick her out of the car. 31:31 Excuse me, could you leave the car, please? Well, yeah. And then also even right to 31:38 bear arms. Yeah. And then even her her first interactions with Molly who's like 31:44 genuinely showing her kindness and she she does everything she can to to be 31:49 like you know get the response of like why should I help you like yeah the only innocent person in the 31:56 entire film and she which kind of gave me pause 32:01 because I I you can sort of take it as okay she's the token victim right 32:07 because they have to show this this everybody's evil and so someone will suffer right and you need a example to 32:16 make this point or Molly doesn't exist 32:22 Molly is an aspect of Nomi's character the innocent part 32:28 that gets raped the part that gets taken advantage of because they meet uh after 32:35 her ride uh loses her luggage cuz the guy she was with stolen. And she 32:43 freaks out and she doesn't just freak out. I mean, she just has a tantrum, which is weird when you think about it. 32:49 And so she starts beating on someone's car and that's Molly's little car. And 32:54 somehow this Molly takes pity on her and buys her junk food. And apparently couple of weeks later, slash cut, she's 33:02 living in Molly's trailer home and she's going to work. work is stripping, which I suspect, 33:11 considering how good she looks on stage, she had been doing for a while, not just in Vegas, but somewhere else. She just 33:18 moved to Vegas because that's where you make your money as a stripper, right? That's stripper Valhalla. 33:24 And that's what this movie is. It's a kind of a documentary about 33:31 sex Valhalla in America, right? You go to Vegas to go to strip bars and to see naked 33:38 women and to gamble and to have lots of food and then you leave and whatever 33:44 happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. That's the saying, right? Yeah. Well, that's what our friend for Hovind 33:49 is showing you. It's like this is this is what you're doing. This is the industry. This is these women are are 33:57 basically meat for the grinder and they're not nice people because if you 34:02 survive in an industry like that, if you somehow thrive in it, then well, this is what it 34:09 takes. This is the kind of character you have cuz know me. And here comes the 34:15 name. It's not her real name, of course. She's reinventing herself. And why know me? Why not Naomi? Well, know me. 34:24 You have to know me. You must see me for who I really am because I am not a 34:30 prostitute. You must know me. I am a talented dancer. I am know so know me. 34:36 And she gets angry with every character in the movie that doesn't know her that just sees the 34:43 prostitute and the people that sort of try to know her 34:48 like uh the bouncer guy who hits on her all the entire movie. She has a kind of 34:54 well okay let's see what this really is and she sort of push pulls him you know to see if he's relationship material and 35:00 of course obviously he proves he isn't but know me is basically her way of 35:06 saying to people uh you have to look past the surface and that's what Hovind 35:11 is doing with this movie look past the surface look past the glitter look past the lights look past all the bombast 35:17 look past the superficiality of Las Vegas what you see is something very 35:22 nasty the longer you look, the more you're going to the more you're going to push it away. And of course, that's what 35:29 happens to this movie. And the critics and the audience and they killed the 35:35 messenger for it. They kill poor Liz Berkeley. She proves Paul Verhovven's 35:41 point. The girl never was in another movie again. Why? Why? She could have been in 35:48 a dance movie. She could have been in Coyote Ugly, right? She could have danced on the bar. should have looked 35:53 great better than the chicks that were in it. Interesting. Very interesting. That's 35:58 what makes this a very very influential movie because people are still talking about this 20 years 25 years later. 36:07 Yeah. Yeah. And well and and I I I think 36:13 another aspect of this movie we need to talk about is just overall 36:19 um the production values, the look of it. Um it looks like a 36:25 million bucks. Um and and I mean of course it does. I mean every Verhovven 36:31 movie looks like a million bucks. But I I think again at the end of the day, 36:36 this movie was judged on its budget too because this could have been made as a 36:43 sort of a grindhouse style movie uh and 36:48 probably been just as effective. But the fact that it was presented 36:53 uh in this, you know, shiny, you know, uh pristine 37:01 package. I I I think it threw a lot of people off because at the end of the day, it's a 37:07 very dark movie. It's a very um uh 37:12 you know, it's not easy subject material. So, I think it was like part of the the way this movie was sold, you 37:19 know, the the darkness wasn't really part of the marketing of this film. And I do want to talk about 37:26 Yeah. And and I do want to talk Yeah. And I do want to talk about this because I know uh our buddy Sean um from 37:33 the Last of the Action Heroes uh podcast network um brought this up. 37:38 Happy Funk Network. Yeah. The Last Horah. How sad it was. how how 37:44 disastrously that was snatched from us. Yeah. Uh unfortunately, but I I do know 37:50 that that he is not a fan of the direction this movie goes in. Uh and 37:58 it's a valid take, but at the same time, the movie has to go there. 38:03 There has to be a moment. There has to be a moment that 38:09 snaps know me out of it, right? Um because they can do whatever they want. Goes bad. 38:14 Yeah. They can do whatever they want to to Nomi. Nobody can handle it. Um she can roll with the punches for for 38:21 lack of a better term. And the irony is nothing touches her in this film. Yes, she's upset, 38:28 but nothing really touches her. She's not the one who gets violently raped. Mhm. 38:34 No, that's her friend. or this happened all happened to her before and it's just a co it's a it's a 38:42 conglomerate of all her memories. So that's an interesting take. Well, 38:47 that's my take anyway. But yeah, it's it's Sean's take was well this is a it's 38:53 a satire. It's a black comedy. So it should have it should be it shouldn't go there. It should should have more 39:00 lean into the comedy more and it should be funny and well that's the problem. 39:06 what they're doing there isn't funny at all. Not to pull for Hovind. And so he's not he may not be a moralist, but he 39:14 abores violence against women. And in his opinion, Las Vegas in its entirety 39:21 is just gross. That's what this movie proves. It's like 39:26 there's nobody nobody likable anywhere 39:33 because the people who are likable, they don't survive. They end up in hospital. 39:39 I found that amazing. And I found this reaction amazing. It's like, yeah, I was disappointed with the movie because it 39:46 wasn't funny or it didn't go somewhere funny. So, I would feel better about Las Vegas and I would feel better about 39:52 what's happening to this woman, right? Because that's the American way. If you make a movie where you're showing 39:58 something really gruesome and their things are blowing up and and it's just it's terrible, you know, someone's head 40:04 is being chopped off, then you just end it with a joke. You make it funny. Haha. And then everything is okay again 40:11 because we didn't mean it. We were making a joke. That's basically what what that says. Then then you can present it as entertainment. And here's 40:18 Paul Verhovven saying, "Yeah, let's not go there. This isn't funny at all. This is reality. I've talked to 200 uh 40:25 strippers and dancers and prostitutes because they did some serious research, right? And they had such fun doing it. I 40:31 mean, you can just imagine like him and Joe Esther talking to uh all the major 40:37 players in Vegas and you know, they're big names, so of course people are going to show up and tell them everything they know. It's like, oh yeah. 40:44 And he said, well, basically every note I took, it all ended in the movie ended up in the movie. Everything that happens 40:51 is someone someone's anecdote. So that that's not a pretty picture. That's not funny. Haha. There's no satire in there. 40:58 Well, to a degree. To a degree because there's the typical 41:03 Paul Forhovven uh kind of, you know, uh body humor where uh she's finally 41:09 getting with u the bouncer guy. And so they're making out and it's like, I 41:16 mean, this isn't just making out. This isn't Hollywood making out. This is a Dutch movie making out. There's tongues 41:21 everywhere. Nipples are pierced, you know. Um, and so at some point she says, 41:27 "I can't." And he says, "Why? Why? Why?" I said, "I'm on my period." Of course, he doesn't believe it. What guy would? I 41:32 mean, we're here. And she goes, "Check." So he sticks a finger in there and he comes out and it has blood on it. He's 41:38 like, "Hey, I got towels." But she leaves in a huff, right? That's really 41:44 Dutch. That's if you watch it like a Dutch movie from the 70s, there's a lot of that stuff going on. That's that's 41:49 what he came from. That's that's what he finds funny. It's like, yeah, now we're gonna present them. I mean, you don't 41:55 really get sex in this film. You don't get it because once she was on a period 42:00 and in the other one, it's underwater. You don't see anything. It's just waves. 42:07 Yeah. Holy was having a laugh while he was filming that. It's like, okay, now everybody's going to be expecting 42:14 sex, but you're not going to get it. Yeah. The only sex you're going to get is forced. 42:19 Mhm. When three guys forced themselves on an innocent woman who didn't ask for it. 42:25 Mhm. Who's just a fan? Yeah. Well, and and then also the the 42:32 simulated sex that we get where, you know, um Smith famously says to her, you 42:38 know, uh you were [ __ ] him without [ __ ] him. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's Paul for Hovind's 42:45 commentary on the on on that phenomenon because that's not European. We don't do that here at all. 42:51 Yeah. Yeah. You just you just if you do that, you just go to a prostitute, you know, takes 15 minutes and you pay maybe 42:57 €4 and and you get to get sucked and you and you get to have sex and you come and that's it. You know, it's just okay. 43:04 Saturday night, you had dinner, you've been to a movie, uh you're out with your buddies, you pick a prostitute, and you 43:10 have fun, right? And so in America it's like well you go to with your buddies to a a strip bar and you go to the buffet 43:18 and then you get a lap dance right for your birthday or something. Yeah. Paul does not get that. Well, he gets it 43:26 but he he kind of Well, there's the satire. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and and the other 43:31 funny thing is you mentioned the scene where, you know, uh she says she's on her period and he calls her bluff. But 43:38 um it seems like that's a tool that Nomi uses because uh earlier in the film 43:44 foreshadows Yeah. Robert Dobby. Yeah. You know, asked her why she missed 43:49 her shift and she says, "I had my period." So it it it was funny. To bleed all over the stage, do you? 43:56 Yeah. Bad for business. Uh uh but it's interesting because you know there's a lot of those sort of 44:04 um what Czechov's gun type moments and one that I noticed watching the movie again for this podcast and I've watched 44:11 the movie a dozen times probably but I didn't really pick it up until this time is how many times they reference 44:17 falling down those stairs, right? Uh, so it's like of course it 44:23 needs to culminate with somebody being pushed or quote unquote falling down 44:28 those stairs, but um it it's they even foreshadow it with the other girl who avenges herself, right? It's 44:35 it's and that's why I'm thinking this is this entire thing is like a dream state. It has to be because it's so on the nose. 44:43 Yeah. Uh but yeah, and my favorite thing about this movie 44:49 and we'll get into the ending, but my favorite thing is at the very end of the movie and when she gets into the u truck 44:56 of the same guy and they're arguing over where her luggage is, you see the sign where she's going next, 45:03 right? Los Angeles. She's going from Las Vegas to Los 45:08 Angeles. She's going from bad to worse. That's what Paul Forhovven is saying. It's a commentary. Yeah, 45:15 that's if there had been a sequel, it would have been about how Nomi is in 45:22 the porn industry trying to break into mainstream acting. It would it would have written itself, 45:28 right? Yeah. Yeah. You would have run into uh the Harvey Weinstein of this world. 45:34 Yeah. Yeah. Uh well, one interesting thing that sort of and and this is another thing I noticed for the first 45:41 time last night when I watched it again. Um and this this kind of gives, you know, credence to your theory, though. 45:47 Uh when they're at the Paradiso, uh at the Andrew Carver party, um Nomi's 45:53 dancing with Zach Kyle Mccclaclin, uh and his gloriously ridiculous 45:58 haircut. Um, I I I I can't get over the entire presentation of him as a 46:04 character. You either like or dislike Kyle Mclofflin's haircut. It's just what it 46:09 is. Uh, I I think he's perfect in this film, and it's unfortunate that he doesn't see 46:15 that. Um, but if you watch that scene in the background, you see um the Thai 46:23 businessman from the boat show dancing with Nikki, who was the other girl who 46:28 went to the boat show. and I never noticed him before. Right. Um, 46:33 and that alone he stayed to she stayed for karaoke in the afterparty. Mhm. Mhm. 46:40 But then also it it it's this whole sort of playing with with time because I 46:45 think after the six week time jump from, you know, when she arrives in Vegas to 46:51 when she's dancing at the cheetah Mhm. our whole sense of time is is [ __ ] Uh 47:00 because because a lot happens and you're like, well, does this happen over the period of days, the period of weeks, the period of months? 47:07 Um I mean, is she that talented that she becomes like um uh you know, the new 47:12 girl in into the understudy of the lead. Yeah. To the lead. Uh the lead. And and 47:19 I think uh that businessman being at the Paradiso, well, like for me, I was like, 47:25 well, it's got to be a couple of weeks later, right? Like, and I'm like, how long is he in town for? Or did he go 47:32 away and then come back? Um, but either way, I I I thought it was an interesting 47:38 detail that that he ended up at that at that party. And and like I said, I never 47:44 noticed him before. Yeah, because he's supposed to be what? A heavy roller, 47:49 right? Yeah. An important customer for the casino to be placated to, you know, will'll keep 47:55 him happy with uh free tickets to stuff and and uh show show girls to bang and 48:01 that kind of thing. Yeah. Um so that was definitely 48:07 interesting and and you're interested because that's the suggestion at the end of the movie and that's the ending of it 48:13 is that Nomi's made it. She's the star of the show. She's the goddess. But 48:21 Zach K Mclofflin, the director, finds out about her past that she's been 48:26 trying to hide, right? Oh, I don't know my social security number. Oh, I'm from back east somewhere, you know, from all 48:33 over the place. I've done a lot of stuff. Blah blah blah. Nobody knows anything about her because nobody has to 48:38 know anything about her because it's her dream. You don't introduce yourself in your own dream. You know everything everything about yourself. But you're 48:44 hiding stuff from yourself while you're dreaming. Again, my theory. But Zach finds out, and that's always your worst 48:51 fear, right? Yeah. So, guess what? I found out that you were a hooker and you 48:57 were busted here and here and here and here, and you had possession and and you uh you're violent and you know, you 49:03 assaulted people. And so, he's basically saying, you know, you're going to be a star here and you're going to be very 49:08 valuable to us and you know, you're going to make us a lot of money. And basically what he's saying is, yeah, I'm 49:15 your pimp now. I'm not going to be your boyfriend. I'm your pimp. And she recognizes it. And that's why 49:22 the ending, I mean, if you look at the ending and you just look at basically the story, it's like, why would she 49:28 leave? She's made it. No, she hasn't. Because the dream is not becoming the goddess of the show. The dream is 49:35 getting away from prostitution, getting away from her past. and she finds out, 49:40 "Oh god, I'm the biggest [ __ ] here." Because that's what Crystal keeps telling her. It's like, "No, I can just 49:47 buy you if I want to." Cuz she does. She keeps proving out throughout the movie, "No, I'm a [ __ ] and I do this for money 49:55 and I give my customers what they want." And then Nomi shells her down the stairs 50:02 and she can sue uh she can sue the casino and get a settlement and she's 50:07 actually happy about it cuz she got out. Yeah. 50:13 Right. We should all be thrown down the stairs. Well, yeah. And that's also the the most interesting thing about it is, you know, 50:19 you think when when they when Zach finds out who she really is that, you know, 50:26 the jig is up. But like you said, he sees he just sees dollar signs. I can They 50:32 were worried about They couldn't control her. Yeah. Mhm. How are we going to control this chick? 50:37 I mean, Crystal was a commodity. They knew what what they had there because she'd been a star for ages. So, what we 50:43 going to do? Get Paula Abdul and or get get this girl or get Latoya or No. No. 50:48 Too expensive. And now they have this chick and they can just keep her there in perpetuity because where where is she 50:57 going to go, right? Yeah. Well, apparently back on the road. 51:02 Yeah. Well, and then also they they also show that she's part of this bigger machine that is going to protect 51:09 people like Andrew Carver as well, right? You know, like he's not at our he's not at our casino right now, 51:15 but in two or three years he might be. So he going to be a big deal. Yeah. Yeah. So we're going to marry you to 51:22 this felon, right? Enjoy your life. 51:28 Yeah. Well, and and and again, like for me, the ending is 51:35 perfect. Um totally. Yeah. Great. The moment that the moment that gets her there isn't. And it's it's it's a 51:41 difficult scene to watch. And and I think that's probably what threw uh you 51:46 know Sean and a lot of other people off is like hey I didn't sign up for this. Uh but one thing Verhovven's great at is 51:53 like you know you're buying a ticket you're going to take the full ride. Um whether 51:58 you want to or not. Um and I think that's the real the real thing that I think a lot of people that 52:04 threw a lot of people off. They were like hey I didn't sign up for this. I signed up for a a fun Vegas movie and 52:12 Verhovven doesn't give you that. He gives you something really really dark and sinister instead. And the the 52:18 funniest part about it is and this is nobody warned them this was a horror movie, right? No. Well, well, no. And and the other 52:24 thing is this is a you know this speaks to the commentary on you know how women are treated in society and violence 52:30 against women is in the scene with Molly you you really 52:36 see the the the violence and you contrast that with the scene where um 52:42 Nomi goes to get her vengeance uh on Carver. you see the initial hit uh but 52:49 from that point all you're seeing is the the kicks from uh a POV perspective if 52:56 you will you're not it's like the Jean Claude Fandam wheel kick 53:02 yeah but you don't you don't see the the violence that is inflicted on on Carver 53:09 aside from from her end of things whereas you contrast that with the fact that we very much saw the violence Ino stole 53:17 this for his movie cuz he loves show girls and he stole 53:22 this for the ending of his movie for uh Death Proof. That's that's the death proof ending. 53:28 The three girls avenging themselves on uh Kurt Russell and they kick him to death. 53:34 But in in in in that scenario, we see the violence. We see Kurt Russell's uh head get smashed. Uh and that's the 53:42 thing. I mean, here we don't see the aftermath of what happened, but if you if you look at at what she does and 53:49 you're keeping score of it, you're like, she really [ __ ] this guy up. Like, you 53:54 almost wonder if he's going to be able to perform ever again. Yep. They're probably going to if that 54:01 actually happened, if it wasn't just a dream, then they're going to have to be wiring his jaw together. 54:07 Yeah. But but the thing is I wonder do you have any take on on on 54:14 the hows or wise of seeing the the violence against Mali and not really seeing it against Carver. 54:21 I think he um he purposely didn't show it um because he wanted to f he wanted to 54:28 focus to be on her and what happened to her because we already know what happened to her. She's very probably did 54:34 the same thing to him. She might have been she might even have gotten a little uh because we he 54:41 ironically he leaves it up to our imagination. Uh but at that point she's fairly psychotic. So that switchblade 54:47 that came out she might have gotten creative with that. You never know. There's a reason why she leaves town really quick. 54:55 Yeah. Yeah. Um she does stop to dress up in uh you know 55:00 uh some new nice. Yes. Uh 55:07 yeah, I it's it's it's it's wild because I I never I never really thought about some of the concepts and ideas that 55:14 you're you're presenting. And like I said, Esther House is a very sort of on-nose filmmaker. So interpreting his 55:22 stuff through the lens of Verhovven is is going to leave you a lot of uh 55:28 interesting questions. very interesting pairing because um I'm used to Verhovven 55:33 working with um Saudike which is his basically his his uh the usual guy he 55:40 writes with and Verhovven is very much a aur director. 55:46 Uh he but he usually picks a book and they just rework that into a scenario, 55:53 right? Like with Soldier Orange, they picked an actual autobiography of an actual person uh the actual um Eric 56:01 Hazelhov and made it into a movie and 56:06 Ferhovven did his take on it. That's not really what happened to to Helov. It's 56:12 kind of kind of an amalgamation of what happened to a lot of guys who uh got 56:17 into a boat and went to England to fight uh Nazi Germany, right? The thing with 56:23 Esther House, we already if you look at Esther's script for Basic Instinct, a 56:28 lot of the things you see aren't on the page. Like the scene where u Sharon Stone 56:36 bears all right, where she basically spreads her legs. That's something that 56:41 happened to Paul Verhovven personally in college at some point, right? So there's a lot of Paul 56:49 Verhovven in all his movies and that's why Jesus Christ keeps showing up. 56:54 That's why um uh violence against women is almost 57:01 a theme in in all of his films. Flesh and blood is almost the same story when you think about it. 57:08 And the same with an earlier movie he did in Holland which was called Spatters which is about three guys who are um 57:15 romantically interested in a girl who works in a burger joint. And so they all try and 57:23 finally she settles for the last one because the first one kills himself after an accident and uh the other one 57:30 turns out to be gay. Verhovven is the dominant partner in this. Yeah. Well well it's also not point I was trying to make 57:36 Yeah. I I think it's not and and Esther House talks about this in his books too is it wasn't really um 57:45 a collaboration in the sense that after the script was done Esther House had a lot of input on set and I think that's 57:51 part of the issues he had and you know why he almost walked from Basic Instinct and um thank goodness the partnership 57:59 ended up the way it did because we got the films that we got but it's sort of easy to see and it's Esther House's best 58:06 the facts. Yeah. But it's also easy and made it art. 58:12 Yeah. Uh it's easy to see Esther House's point of view though because he's a very opinionated guy and uh like I said, he 58:19 he he fought for he fought for his his scripts. Um but again, at the end of the 58:25 day, um you know, thank goodness uh that this collaboration uh wound up the way 58:31 it did. Uh it's amazing. And and again, I I think he's not writing the screenplay for 58:37 Jesus of Nazareth, apparently. Yeah. Hold is still looking for a guy to write 58:43 it. Yeah. Well, I mean, Esther Hos is in his 80s now. Um he's he's had some he's had 58:50 some battles in his life. He's he's battled throat cancer. Um the dude has 58:55 earned whatever he's earned in terms of where he's at now. Um retirement. Again, at the end of the 59:02 day, I really have to say thank goodness that Verhovven and Esther 59:07 House had the stroke to get this movie made. Thank goodness the executives in charge 59:13 of the the purse strings at MGM didn't think twice about what they were paying 59:19 for because we got a movie uh that 59:24 shouldn't have been made, that was made. True. uh and is 59:30 whether or not you think it's a good movie at the end of the day, it's it's it's a remarkable movie and it's 59:36 I think it's good art. Yeah, because that's what he was making. This 59:42 is an art house film done in Hollywood. It's his first art house film in 59:47 Hollywood, but that's what it is. And ironically, 59:52 um, Hollywood wanted him because of his art house movies, because of his Dutch sensibilities. That's why they wanted 59:58 him. The thing is, yeah, we we it's great that you can do that, but we want it this way, right? That's always been 1:00:05 his frustration. It was a frustration in Robocop. was a frustration in Total Recall and it was a frustration in in 1:00:11 Starship Troopers is that um he has all these abilities but they're constantly 1:00:17 reigning him in show girls 1:00:22 that's just an unleashed for Hovind film like it or dislike it. Well, no, and that's the funniest thing 1:00:28 about any kind of you know uh commercial art if you think about it. 1:00:33 Um you know and it's happened with plenty of filmmakers. It's happened with plenty of uh music artists. It's like, 1:00:41 well, do you do you want me or do you want the potential to make money from 1:00:47 me? Cuz it's like, if you want me, let me of having someone as Verhovven. They 1:00:52 don't want to actually have him do what he's good at. Yeah. Because the cache will sell the movie 1:01:01 and that's how we make money, not your stuff. Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't go down well with 1:01:08 movie makers. Yeah. So, again, I mean, it's just I I 1:01:15 I'm really thankful every every time I think about this movie uh about the fact that it actually got made. And it also 1:01:23 still stands up. Yeah. You can still It's still very watchable. Yeah. No, 1:01:29 because of the nudity. Yeah. No. And it also makes me disappointed because again, this was 1:01:36 a a a fork in the road in in Hollywood, if you will. Um, and 1:01:44 its failure uh or lack of success theatrically 1:01:49 uh really changed sort of the direction film making could have gone in. We could 1:01:55 have gotten more of these NC17 uh truly adult films, quote unquote. 1:02:03 Perhaps it was sabotaged for that very reason, cuz this movie made a ton of money. It's 1:02:10 just people didn't want to go to a theater to see it. They want to own the videape. They want to own that Blu-ray. 1:02:16 Right. Yeah. Which is a another weird commentary. Yeah. This film is an immense success 1:02:24 and it's being buil as an dramatic failure in every conceivable way in the 1:02:31 critical sense and in in in box office ways and it's just not true. 1:02:38 And that's what that's one of the reasons why I thought well you might be a good person to uh discuss this movie 1:02:44 uh with me. Yeah. No, absolutely. And I and I appreciate it and I think this was a a 1:02:49 really uh man this was a really interesting discussion and and it's I I wasn't sure 1:02:55 where it was going to go but uh man I I I it Perhovven makes movies that are food for 1:03:00 thought and and this every time I see it 1:03:08 I just I have a different take on it and I think well could be this it could be that and that's what good art does. 1:03:14 Yeah. It's what David Lynch was so good at. It's what Stanley Kubri was so good at. It's lost now. But there are still 1:03:22 movies you can enjoy that don't give you comfortable endings, that don't give you 1:03:28 logical conclusions. Not everything is easy. And Showgirl is certainly not 1:03:34 easy. No, it's only easy on the eyes. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Uh perfect 1:03:42 summation. Thank you. Anyway, um, let's talk again and I'll 1:03:49 see you soon. All right. Thank you, Seco. Thank you. Bye-bye.