Latest / Rough Drafts - Exploring Creative Process - by BOUNCE / Sarah Moloney // Feels So Real
Transcript
- BOUNCE: Hi there, this is Danielle from Rough Drafts. If you like our content, please consider giving us a follow. You can listen and watch on Spotify and YouTube, you can listen on Apple. And over on our Patreon you can see full content, videos, case studies and much, much more. Go on, click the button to follow along. In today's episode I speak with Sarah Maloney, graphic designer and illustrator based here in Dublin. This is a conversation about what sustains a practice over a long time, and the answer turns out to be emotion and the pursuit of a genuine felt response in whoever encounters the work. Sarah describes it plainly. She wants people to feel a connection. Everything else in her practice follows on from that. We talk about the relationship between style and design. Why Sarah's work is always recognizably hers, but never the same, and why the distinction matters more than ever before. We also go into AI not as a threat, but perhaps there is light on the horizon with a trend towards and focus on handmade design. Maybe this will prove to propel the industry forward rather than dismantle it. Just a note, there are a few dips in the Wi-Fi, but nonetheless, a beautiful showcase of work. And of her career at the Center of Illustration Led Design. Enjoy. Welcome to Rough Drafts, the podcast from Bounce where ideas are still forming. Today's guest has designed the visual world for the music festival based on Dingle Other Voices. She's done this for years, not just a single campaign or a single season, years. A different visual treatment, but the same world every time. If you've ever wondered how someone builds that kind of sustained creative relationship, Without repeating themselves, this conversation is from you. Sarah Maloney graduated from Visual Communications in NCAD, the National College of Art and Design, in 2010. She's worked in studios in Hamburg, London, and back to Dublin, where she's self-employed and based now for over a decade. Her client lists read like a tour of Irish cultural life, Kilkenny Katz Festival, Dublin International Film Festival, Senator Lynn Rouan, and Amnesty International. She's designed social campaigns for the repeal movement, she's created packaging for food and producers and craft brewers, worked with LGBTQ plus organization, and illustrated the identity of comedy festivals, children's arts festivals and film programs across Ireland. What holds all this together is Sarah's illustration, distinctly her, with a somewhat analogue vibe and full of attitude too. This episode is about what it takes to sustain an independent illustration led design practice, a remarkably diverse client list, and a cultural sector that values her approach. Sarah, welcome to Rough Drafts. Hi Dial, thanks for having me. Thanks for the nice introduction. So do you want to start by maybe telling us how did you get into design? How did you start your start off your career? Yeah, ⁓ so when I was in school, one of my art teachers, Helen Ryan, he ⁓ thought it would be a good area for me to go into and especially graphic design. luckily I got an internship after I graduated. So I moved to Hamburg ⁓ straight after college and ⁓ to be honest the the brand union is a well was a massive ⁓ branding agency. The work was ⁓ like global time wasn't very creative for me, ⁓ but it was a great experience for me to figure out that ⁓ that wasn't the kind of studio I wanted to work in or the work I wanted. ⁓ so after that internship I stayed in Hamburg and I got a job in a small design agency there called Spelatage and ⁓ that was great. The work was just like right up my street. I got to ⁓ illustration my design work a lot more there. I had a great creative director there, Sabina Arns and she ⁓ ⁓ she was great for like my design education too. ⁓ and I stayed there for about two years and then I moved back to Dublin. ⁓ and then when I moved back to Dublin I kinda just did the rounds with my portfolio and ⁓ break 'cause I kinda got a sense of the design scene in Dublin at the time. ⁓ get a job in design called Origin Design. ⁓ I worked there for about I was let go from there 'cause the company was sort of winding down. So it's like bat out back into looking for a job in Dublin. But this time when I was going around with my portfolio, the I also offered ⁓ my service as a freelance designer. And what do you think has changed in the design scene since then? Since when you came back, you know, you came back from your internship like in Hamburg and then your your position and then you came back to Dublin. What did the design scene in Dublin maybe what was it like then compared to how it is now? Yeah, I good question. I think when I was in college it just seemed so lively and there was lots of things happening. And actually when I came back to there was like design talks and ⁓ like offset the festival and things like that. And then that sort of like petered out a bit, but I feel like it's coming back into the scene now and I think that's just really great, especially for like designers to meet up. ⁓ like I think when I came out of college, because I'm not from Dublin, all my friends were designers, so and most of the people I knew in Dublin were designers and ⁓ It's nice to have ⁓ links to the design world. Your decision to be solo and freelance and work from your for yourself and not be in a studio. Talk us through that. What was what was the deciding factor there for you? ⁓ I really l like that I'm solo and on my own. ⁓ but I was just sort of crossed into it and I don't think I would ever had the ball just go out and do it on my own if I wasn't if that wasn't the case. It's just that I didn't get a job and and I just started working ⁓ for myself. ⁓ I think the ⁓ there's like not a there's not really a safety net and especially at the start when you start out it's really difficult and you don't have clients and you don't make that much money. ⁓ yeah, like I don't have like my family are from Dublin so I didn't have like you know, I couldn't go home and live with my family and not pay rent. I just needed to be able to sustain myself and it just sort of was coincidence or not coincidence like ⁓ that's just how it worked out for me but I'm really happy because I don't think I would have be brave enough to have made the push if it wasn't thrust upon me. Do you know what I mean? ⁓ at the same time I really liked working with designers in studios. I suppose that was ⁓ the benefits of working on my own are that I get to do a lot of work that I like in the studio do the work that you're given. ⁓ so you might be working on jobs that you just don't have again or ⁓ yeah. And and also not just designed for the clients, you're designed for creative director. It's a tough one because as you say, like, you know, it was kinda thrust upon you, but like, you know, it's not just the design work. Like it's not just the work, it's all the the peripheral stuff, the, you know, trying to get new clients, chasing new clients, you know, doing the the the books, all that sort of stuff. and I I it's it's a huge undertaking. It's a nice idea of freelance and freedom, you know, but actually it's a huge, huge undertaking. and the lack of security perhaps as well, ⁓ that goes along with that, kinda when you're starting out not having those returning clients or not having all of those connections yet. and I I I I wonder ⁓ guys coming out of college now feel like they want to do that kind of freelance thing. And I I think it's it's great to be able to stretch to different things. But is it sustainable over a long career to, you know, jump between studios? 'Cause I think there's two different types of freelance. There's freelance like what you're doing, which is you are your own you have your own client list, you know, that kind of thing. And then there's freelance kind of plugging the gap in a studio. kind of jumping from here to there to there. You know, there's so there's two different I suppose two different types of of freelance. do you think that like it is sustainable to kinda to operate just kind of plugging those gaps along the way or did you have any experience of that? So I I I just did a little bit of that. Well first of all I would say I think if you come out college and start working freelance like just for yourself and not plug up gaps. I I don't think that's a great idea. And I'm so happy I had that experience before I went out by myself. I I I would have been completely lost. Even when I the first big job I did ⁓ when I was ⁓ working for myself was the Dublin International Film Festival. And I remember ⁓ I had a pal in there who said, ⁓ does your studio want to ⁓ for this? And I said, ⁓ well, actually I'm out my own out. You could I do that? And she was like, Yeah, ⁓ okay. But think I could do that, like it's a big job, you know? She was like, Yeah, absolutely. And ⁓ like I I it was fine, but like even at the time I was like, ⁓ my god, this is a huge dub. I've never done anything like this before. Am I like if am I getting into something I'm getting way over my head in, you know, but it was it was it was fine in the end. But yeah, ⁓ I think that like bugging the gap, I did that like for ⁓ yes, you but I don't think that's something you could do long term. Yeah, and you're right, it is great experience to work in a studio of any sort, you know, ⁓ especially when you come out of college, just to see how it operates and and you know, learn from other people, which is really, really important. ⁓ but then I ⁓ just in terms of your own career and your own, I suppose, identity. So you're trained as a graphic designer essentially, and you are probably more known for your illustration than your graphic designer. There's a a lovely harmony between the two of ⁓ within your work. ⁓ so where do you where do you kind of see yourself sitting and at what point did you start to kinda Not sell yourself, but you know, ⁓ articulate your practice as an illustration led practice. yeah, I guess I always sort of call myself a graph designer. ⁓ and not an illustrator, but i I think the thing is like I just use illustration as my image making within the design. So maybe it's the wrong term I'm using to describe myself, but ⁓ I I guess I don't really sell myself through words. I just sell myself through my work so people see what I can do and then ⁓ yeah, I'm not sure what the best term is really because sometimes I do work as an illustrator, like people bring me on jobs as an illustrator and not as a designer, but it definitely helps that I have ⁓ yeah, the background design if there's typography within the illustration, like I just think a lot of illustrators you see that they're amazing illustration, but they might be really bad at layout or like typography is like not great. And and it I think you're right. Like you see some a lot of like, you know, illustrators and graphic designers team up. ⁓ and yeah, it's kinda like, you know, the ability to be able to flex between the two and the kind of working with copy and type, and make it feel part and harmonic with the the illustration that you created is, you know, is is actually a i a huge skill. ⁓ and it's not it's not that you're you're unique, but it's you know, you see it all the time. You see like an illustrator is a great illustrator but they're not really good ⁓ with layout. And then y you y I I I kinda sometimes wonder, like I can count on my ⁓ on a couple of hands maybe, ⁓ how many people that are illustration only can actually really kinda, you know, sustain a career. ⁓ without having that other sensibility, that layout and ability to work with type. ⁓ and I I just fear that is you see you see it you kind of see it across all of the kind of colleges and universities, there's huge interest from people to study illustration only. And obviously they are t being taught other aspects of design. But i like is there enough Is there actually enough work for that the the volume of illustrators that seem to be kind of being produced at the minute? I seem I don't know. D d do you have any thoughts on that? ⁓ I don't know. It's hard to be saying but I think that I like I don't have an agent. I don't really have a grasp on like what it's like to just be an illustrator or to rely on that solely. But I can't imagine it's easy. There are so many illustrators and ⁓ yeah, even like amazing illustrators ⁓ like still struggle to get work, you know. ⁓ also I ⁓ just on you're talking about illustrators that ⁓ like haven't had the education of design and and it's just illustration. But I think like even if you think in Ireland, like when I was in college, Gaura Callen was in the year above me. ⁓ Keisha McCree was the year below me, ⁓ Kathy Burke I think was here too below me. These are all illustrators, but they actually all did the same course as me, which is visual communications. So they were all trained in design. So even though they work as they have this background in terms of illustration, yeah, I'm I'm not sure. It's it is hard to I think it's hard to make it ⁓ as an illustrator, there's a lot of competition. But then you could probably say the same thing as about about graphic designers. Like even when I graduated my cost, I think ⁓ the majority of them like me too we all left our well it was a recession but we all left Ireland and most of them like end up in London work as all sorts of things so it's not so easy 'cause the world isn't thinking but you'll make your way to something it's it's spooky to come out and just like need a job and think, ⁓ my god, I no suit take my own, what do I do? Like you're not gonna sit there and and not work for the rest of life. Like you will end up g getting something you just have to figure it out. ⁓ figure it out. Stuff the first job is the hardest to get and after that it gets a bit easier, you know. And I think like even while, you know, sometimes it is coming out at a recession or sometimes it's coming out during, you know, COVID or whatever the condition is, there's always a condition, you know. And I think, you know, travelling is actually really good regardless of that condition, you know, and and actually seeing how things operate in different in different ecosystems, you know, and seeing how broad your skill set is and how it could be transferable. And then things like your experience in Hamburg of finding out what you don't want is just as valuable as kind of finding the thing you do want. I think, you know, there's a lot to be said for giving yourself a little bit of space and time to kind of explore that, you know? ⁓ yeah. I even think that like when I came back after Hamburg, ⁓ when I was showing my portfolio, rectors like, ⁓ this is interesting. It's like a different style, you know, that you don't see Dublin tonight. like didn't see it but they can see it. They're like, ⁓ the typography choices you use and and it it's better for it's better for ⁓ the the Irish design scene that people come back with different styles and different ideas so it doesn't all seem like the same, you know? And it's I don't know, I think you kinda get into a little zone of looking at your own work and the people beside you and not really kind of opening your eyes to other things when you're when you're all in one little place. Okay, should this work? But ⁓ you mentioned there about kinda, you know, typographic layout and ⁓ typeface choices, but a lot of your work kind of, you know, has this kind of letter press look to it. at what point do you kind of decide, okay, I'm going to like draw the lettering rather than use a typeface? Is i i is there a a kind of point at which you say, ⁓ this would look better if I actually craft it? So like ⁓ one example of a job I did recently was ⁓ Coke line pizza and ⁓ I remember when I was sketching that I just sketched the lettering for that and then I ⁓ started looking for typefaces that might work and ⁓ I found a few but I really liked I really liked what I had drawn together with the illustration and not only that but it like worked really well in terms of the shape ⁓ because you can just manipulate the letters into shapes. even if, you know, the words are different sizes and ⁓ yeah, sometimes I think if sometimes it's too it depends on the product. Sometimes it's too much to have illustrated typography and hand draw next. But then ⁓ yeah, ⁓ because of the like overall it might seem a bit too illustrated. but then sometimes it this works very well and ⁓ like with Cochrane I didn't necessarily want that from the start, but it's the one that kind of worked well after exploring quite a lot of options. ⁓ I was kind of was drawn back to that and ⁓ for the project I think it worked really well. That's a really good example ⁓ of your kind of character development I think as well in in your work. ⁓ what like what inspires you? Where are you get get drawing your inspiration from when you're kind of developing these unique characters? Yeah. So with that project, ⁓ that was just a like a really light project for me. But the name I think was really fun and so they used to ⁓ they used to they started on a lane called Coke Lane, ⁓ with a little a little pizza ⁓ doll there. And ⁓ Dave who runs it, he he wanted to grow the business and he wanted to re brand and ⁓ people think about if he was gonna change the name, but he really liked it and ⁓ I really like that name. I think it's just a little bit edgy. Little bit fun and ⁓ that's what kind of anyway it's like it's not a serious meal, you know. ⁓ and ⁓ I think when I was thinking about that I thought that ⁓ a character would be really good. I think the ideas of it being a little bit edgy or a little bit dodgy or something, ⁓ I I like that idea 'cause I think well with the with the name. ⁓ so I actually kind of just came up with some ideas of these dodgy characters. Sorry to interrupt your listening pleasure, but at this point the Wi Fi died for Sarah. So we had to relocate. Okay, so we've had to have a little ⁓ little change of venue because of ⁓ our lovely Wi Fi. ⁓ but anyway, we are back. and so what I'd like to pick up with is the conversation about your process, really. Maybe you can talk to us a little bit about the project that you were involved in called Animals and and and your process in general and in relation to that. Yeah, so Animals is a play that is ⁓ gonna be on in the Abbey Theatre in September and it's ⁓ directed by Dan Collie but it's based on short stories by Blind Boy and ⁓ they brought me on board and they ⁓ gave me the script of the play, which is a bit unusual, but it was great because it was just ⁓ just very fun, chaotic read and it really helped ⁓ with my process. ⁓ so the brief I got was that they wanted they wanted the play or yeah, they wanted the illustration to reflect the ⁓ the the vibe of the play. They wanted ⁓ a reference to Blind Boy in the illustration, but because he's not actually on stage, ⁓ they didn't want it to be like the main feature and they wanted some animals in the illustration too. So the Abbey Theatre actually have a template layout ⁓ for their posters. So I wasn't involved in the design or the layout of it, but it was helpful to know ⁓ that for the illustration because to to figure out where the illustration would live on the poster. ⁓ yeah, so ⁓ there was like a few people involved in the decision. There was the ⁓ People at the Abbey, there was the director, there was the producer, and then I think Blind Boy also had ⁓ a lot of say in in the design too. ⁓ so yeah, I got the I got the script and I read it and it was it was great, and I like immediately just started taking notes of ⁓ all the scenarios and characters that that happen in this play, and ⁓ then immediately I just started sketching out like all these characters. ⁓ I I I use ⁓ Procreate for my sketching and ⁓ they actually asked me at this at the beginning if I could record myself drawing because they wanted to use it for promotion. So yeah, on Procreate you can screen record, so I did that. ⁓ but yeah, I just started drawing like sketches of everything that I kind of written down and then I ⁓ then I ⁓ just started like creating layouts and so I presented ⁓ I think three or four layout options for them. ⁓ there was one of a roundabout and all the characters like spinning around it and then we had one of like one of the main characters and like just chaos like emerging from behind him. ⁓ and then we had some animals bounding across the screen and then there was like one of a dog that ⁓ was licking himself with his paw on a blind boy mask. ⁓ but yeah, we had a conversation and in terms of like the layout and what they wanted to communicate ⁓ everyone sort of agreed that the the version of the animals like bounding across the screen would be most appropriate for the poster. So we went in that direction. ⁓ I also presented some colour options to them, but just as colour palettes not like within the design or anything, and everyone sort of agreed on a colour palette that they liked. but actually after I drew it up, I I put it in this like colour palette that was kind of like these purples and pinks and oranges. But just didn't really pop and ⁓ Yeah, it didn't seem like it it lost some of the energy. So I I tried a different one ⁓ that had more contrast and brighter colours and and that really worked. And so I s I sent both both of those over and and everyone kind of agreed that the the the second version I had made worked a lot better. so ⁓ they're quite happy with that, but then they had like an internal meeting and I think ⁓ a few other people were involved in that and ⁓ it was decided that ⁓ instead of ⁓ like going exactly that route that we would just pull out one of the characters and have Blind Boy riding on top of him and that would be the image for the poster in the end. the guys at the Abbey actually really liked the all the animals crossing over and they wanted to use that somehow in the promotion. So I still I still gave them pause for that and I think they've used it for for ⁓ some of the promotion. But ⁓ yeah, and then in ⁓ then In the end the the illustration was handed over to the design studio who who create the layouts and they actually changed the one of the colours which was yellow to a gold and ⁓ match it up with the the colour of the topography and it d it works really well. So ⁓ yeah, it's nice to it was a nice project to work on and ⁓ it's very fun and ⁓ I recommend everyone to go see it 'cause it's very entertaining. Did ⁓ did you ever hear what Blind Byte thought of it. Did he ever did you ever get any feedback directly from him? I didn't, but I think I'm I'm ⁓ more concerned about what the director thinks 'cause he's a pal of mine. So for anyone, Blind Boy has a ⁓ a podcast, obviously probably the best podcast in in Ireland. ⁓ don't put yourself down like that. But it no, it's it's fantastic. So you have this distinctive voice in terms of illustration, however, but you're able to marry the the kind of the the the context and the feeling, the emotion of the piece of work that you're working on. So it never feels like while it's it's recognizably yours, it doesn't feel like you're following a formula, if you know what mean. ⁓ is that something that you've kind of honed over over time or is is that a happy accident or what do you think? No, I don't I think that's sort of like how I was taught to design like I think this is possibly a thing as well. Like i illustrators maybe I mean, I know people always say that they recognise my style, so I definitely have a style and a look, but ⁓ I think when you when you design you're designing for the client and for the brief and ⁓ it's not maybe when you're illustrating, people look at a style and they really like that and they want that style. ⁓ so I always sort of have thought about it in terms of design that you're designing for a piece and for a client and and ⁓ yeah, maybe that's why it doesn't maybe that's why Makes sense? Yeah. Yeah. No, no, it is. It's I suppose it is a a really strong distinction between a graphic designer and an illustrator. An illustrator is searching for their style to apply it to things sometimes. And then a graphic designer is searching for an answer to a brief. So I think I think definitely your work f falls into the the graphic design category in that way. It's and it's funny there's this kind of tension between which is leading the work all the time, you know, the illustration, the type, the the graphic design where Where is where is one stop and then the other beginning and it's it's an interesting kind of tension ⁓ when you look at the body of your work on your website alone, you know, when you see all those little thumbnails together, you kinda you you kinda get a sense of of you get a sense of attitude more than style, I'd say, you know. Yeah. Well obviously like Like obviously your own personality is gonna come through in everything you design or illustrate because it's coming from you. So, ⁓ and then maybe also the f the jobs that I take on also reflect things I'm interested in or things I think that work well. And like to be honest, like the the jobs that I think are most successful are the ones that I think match me as a person really well or yeah, ⁓ But that's how it's gonna be with everyone, isn't it? You know, not not everyone can design f for everyone. And, you know, sometimes they even get briefs and I'm like, I'm not the designer for this, you know, I'm not gonna do the the best job. So to me, it's always like better if someone comes to me and asks for me because they find a connection with my work. And I think if I go pursue someone or if someone has just been recommended but they don't actually even look at my work, usually doesn't really work out well because they're try they're looking for something that It's not mm, something I can't really give them or they actually wanted a different designer, but you know, something like that. So yeah. I think I think my personality probably does shine through in in the jobs that I do. But yeah, and I do a lot of cultural work and and work in areas I'm interested in, so that helps too, you know. That's it. The n n nice clients working in the cultural space is is always great. But I think there's certainly a sense of whimsy and ⁓ playfulness and, you know satiric there's a satirical quality to the work as well, I think, which, you know, ⁓ definitely I would imagine is your your personality kind of shining through. and you know, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, there is definitely a sense of humor to everything. and where do you think that sense of humor kinda comes from? Just like is it that innate to kind of be an Irish and kind of being a bit of crack or like you know, like No or is it the noticing of things and kinda going, That's kinda funny or that's kinda odd, you know? Yeah. I think I'm drawn to things that are like a little bit odd maybe. Or yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I think it's just my personality, things I'm drawn to. ⁓ I don't know, that's too big a question. Yeah. I think existential. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I need some time to think about that. But then if you I suppose you were to think about your practice then, you know, and you kind of describe it as culture involving culture, involving music, involving you know, social politics, involved all those types of things. What's the kind of through line? What kinda is the thing that kind of connects all of those, do you think? Yeah, I was I was kind of thinking like, ⁓ like in your brief you were kind of asking me like what would be one word that when you look at an illustration, you know it's done, or ⁓ yeah, a phrase or something. And I think that it's like emotion, really, that I want I want an emotional response from the work. ⁓ you know, that's that's somehow, you know, even like humor, that's an easy way to get an an emotional response from someone. But ⁓ yeah, for people to feel like there's a connection. And I think even even earlier you were talking about like the the typography, that's I think like the fact that I illustrate and sometimes when I illustrate topography or I use like I'm kind of influenced by ⁓ craft and the mark of like the handmaid or the hand produced or whatever, like this this authentic vibe and I think it's because to me it's like that's what gives an emotional connection and ⁓ it shows that there's a human involved and I think it to be honest, like with AI now and all that coming in, this is really it's really I think helpful that the work doesn't look like, you know, a computer can just spit it out. It looks like there's someone involved and I think when there's someone involved the connection is felt on on the other side as well, you know. ⁓ actually like even with animals there, the way they asked me to record it. I I was part of a talk with NCD and Laura Callen was saying that a lot of her clients and she would do illustrations for really big like brands and they've been asking her to record herself or ⁓ yeah make some sort of recording of her her process and it's it's like the brand wants to make sure that you know that they've commissioned an illustrator and it's really important for them to like communicate that it's this isn't AI. Like we're putting we're yeah, putting value in craft and and illustrators and I just think that's really interesting. I haven't hadn't thought about it before, but because of AI, I think that will come in and and that's what people will want and they'll want this emotional response and they want to know that someone was involved. And yeah, I think that will be ⁓ yeah, a big a big part of work in the future. It's interesting, isn't it? That kind of idea of evidence. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's almost like there's a new level of authenticity required, you know, to kinda prove that this was done by a human, like, you know. I think it's valuable because it's valuable for the illustrator because it almost makes them more important, you know, like more value is put on showing that an illustrator did this and they're like hyping the illustrator up. Like, look who we got involved, this person and and I think it's it's kind of it's it's good to to do this for illustrators and designers. Mm-hmm Yeah, and I think people are just getting sick of the kind of AI I you know, the AI is kinda slop. Like it you know, it's it's it's been found out, it's it's very obvious, you know, and and you know, all the problems that kinda yeah of not commissioning designers. But like I know like that know the th th it's it's you know the the the train is on the tracks it's actually you know it's too late to stop it now but like the thoughts of it just being fed information and fed data to me is just a kind of pointless ⁓ activity because as you say like you know you're trying to connect with someone and you can feed something into the AI algorithms to learn and you know create a poster in the style of whatever Vim Crow. But does it ⁓ does it contextually apply? Does it you know what I mean? Is it stylized, fine, but actually that that bit that link is totally broken ⁓ in in in that conversation, you know? And do you have any kind of you know, fear, trepidation about AI and your f future in your career, particularly in terms of all the illustration jobs that potentially could be could disappear? I don't because I think that my style seems quite handmade. And to be honest, like my clients right now could all just like drop me and use AI if they wanted to, you know, it's and but they still choose to work with me. ⁓ I think possibly as well because a lot of my clients are in cultural, they really value like they're very much like ⁓ don't want to be seen to be using AI because they don't agree with it and they don't agree with ⁓ like ⁓ I suppose they they they appreciate having someone create something. ⁓ I I don't have fear of it, but maybe I've just had my head in the sand but Like it's the same as being freelanced at the start. You're like, ⁓ my god, what am I doing? But like you just have to sort of hope for the best, I think, you know? Like these things have happened before, you know, and you just have to ⁓ like now you can you can you can pay a fiver for a logo online, you know, or you can hire a designer. So you could be like, Well, why are you hiring me if you can pay a fiver for your logo? 'Cause people don't appreciate they can see that, you know, that's just like a cheap, like a cheap fix that doesn't actually work, you know? And they see the value in design and having someone actually think about it and ⁓ yeah, the whole process, you know, it's important. Wouldn't it be great if if that's what the shift was, that people actually realize the value of the thinking, the critical thought, the you know, the years of experience. Given that there's gonna be such an amount of AI just out you know what I mean? Like it wouldn't it be great if that was the swing that we we end up talking about and like it was the thing that encouraged more creativity and not less in the world. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I wonder as well, well like what I'm saying about Laura getting asked to like being asked to video herself, will this happen in as graph designers too? Will will will companies be like, ⁓ look, we got this design practice in and they'll requ they'll ask designers to like recorded process or things like that and like yeah like the the the studio like wants to hype up that they worked with a design studio and like wants everyone to know the design process and the thinking gone into it and like you said, yeah. That would be great I think maybe. Well in one way. Once we're not being recorded all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think then Jessica Walsh, didn't she have a video ⁓ a a a ⁓ cam in our studio that you could that you could toil it if you wanted to or whatever, I don't know. ⁓ I wasn't really sure why. But yeah, like, you know it's kinda a little that's a little bit dystopian, but that's hopefully. But in a way maybe like it's it's also s let's like not that I'm saying this, but not that I'm agreeing with having recorded everything, but like for people to see the work that's actually involved in in what you do, you know, 'cause you know, a lot of people are like, ⁓ yeah, what do they do? They just draw this. But like there's so much work going into the whole process that even to show little parts of it, like even you here today, you're like, ⁓ show some sketches. You know, like it's not just like the finished product which everyone knows as a designer, but like from the outside, maybe it just looks like, ⁓ you just did this, you know. But if you're if you're showing the process, maybe people will value it more. Yeah, definitely. And I think that we have always struggled before AI, we've always struggled with that conversation and shown that it You know, th it's not a linear thing. There's not like, you know, an answer and then we execute. It's, you know, all the thinking that goes on between ⁓ receiving the brief and, you know, and the that final outcome piece. And like that's where all the value is, you know. And that that's yeah, I think exposing that as much as possible is really kinda what kind of make me made me set up bounce in the first place. But, you know, and then the extension of that to here. but we have to talk about your biggest or n most maybe most known commission, Other Voices. Yeah. you know, this is a collaboration ⁓ for over a decade, is that right? and every time I see it again it's that that idea of the like, you know, the it it you're working with the same clients, it's the same festival, you know, things themes might change, for example, but and ⁓ there's a there's a a world that it operates within and it but it always feels fresh. How? Tell me how? yeah, it's yeah, it's definitely like probably the project that is most well known to people that I work on and also people love it so much. And to be honest, like it gives me anxiety every year when I ha when when the brief comes along, 'cause I'm like, ⁓ my god, there's so much like weight on it because people love it so much. I'm like, ⁓ I have to do a good job, you know? yeah, actually, so it it happens in December and ⁓ I get the brief I'm probably gonna be briefed on it this week or next week for December this year. ⁓ but like ⁓ yeah, the brief kind of stays the same in a way because the project is the same every year in that it's a music festival. happens in Dingle and and like I suppose it's like a music festival and music is really big and like being authentic, ⁓ that's like big for them and they like to promote Irish music and but like Dingle is like a really big draw as well because one, the people who run it are from Dingle and they love Dingle so much. And ⁓ two, when the people who come to the festival, a lot of people come down to Dingle for the festival and it's like this whole journey to get down there. And ⁓ yeah, it seems so magical when you're down there 'cause it's like winter and it's like a big draw and a big part of it. And ⁓ yeah, at the start I think the sense of place is what we leaned into for ⁓ the the design, well the illustrations for ⁓ for the festival. ⁓ so ⁓ yeah. So in a way, ⁓ like that brief is the same, but every year also the the the guys at other voices will come to me and they might have some references that they like and they might show me that and that might influence the design too. But ⁓ yeah, so like for example, ⁓ la ⁓ the first year I did it, I created these scenes of Django and it sort of ⁓ it wor it was really nice, but I realized then that this sort of illustration that like spans across the bottom of ⁓ the layout doesn't really work because ⁓ it's very difficult the amount of different ⁓ layouts that I have to do in different sizes and different posters. Like I cannot tell you how much like how many different layouts it's it's crazy. There's so many strands, so many posters, so many social media sizes to make and like that also kind of has influenced how It ha the design has developed throughout the years because now I've I'm at a stage where I think like icons work really well. So that's what I've been doing for the last few years is like ⁓ creating icons rather than scenes for the illustration. And it works really well for the design in terms of flexibility. ⁓ also the festival has loads of strands, so each strand has an icon that represents it in a different color ⁓ and it all kind of works together ⁓ overall. ⁓ but yeah, I guess I'm kind of influenced By ⁓ like yeah, old letterpress posters, ⁓ records of Irish trad music, old folk ⁓ posters, ⁓ yeah, like sta like old stamps, ⁓ trying to think other things that I yeah. Last year I think I was kind of looking at like protest posters and typography, things like that. ⁓ ⁓ and then and then every year I also change the change the title font. ⁓ so that changes every year, but ⁓ yeah, I keep an eye out throughout the year if I see interesting things that I think might work and ⁓ keep it in mind. ⁓ but like overall I think the idea is for it to to feel like you can feel this like handmade quality of this poster, but it I like we don't want it to be twe. We want it to be modern. But like ⁓ also feel like ⁓ crafted and Irish and in a way it's it's helpful 'cause that there is this like Celtic revival at the moment, you know, Lankum and all that and it's it's in fashion and I think other voices also kind of fits within that in terms of the design. So ⁓ yeah, it's funny actually some people even think that the design never changes every year and they're kind of surprised. They're like, ⁓ I love design, I'm like, ⁓ which one? They're like ⁓ what? But in a way I think it's great 'cause it shows that like it's consistent in its branding year on year, even though if they actually saw it they'd be like, ⁓ yeah, of course it changes, you know? But the the palettes, I think the palettes are always really novel and there's there's an edge to them. Like, you know, the colour palettes is is always what I s ⁓ not that I see first, but it's kinda what makes them really apparent. But I kinda am almost expecting that the colour palette is gonna kinda, you know Yeah. I think with the colour, it's ⁓ because it happens in December, we always want it to feel a bit dark and wintry. so that's a big thing. But also like yeah, I love colour. I like like trying to find colours that are really exciting. But ⁓ like last year, I think I used three colours. ⁓ not for the whole colour palette but per strand, let's say. And I was ⁓ like taking influence from like these letterpress posters that might be printed on paper that was one colour, but two colours, two colour ink, let's say. So the illustration was one colour, the typography was one colour. ⁓ and then I'm trying to like find colours that match, but also that kind of are a bit exciting, a little bit maybe. ⁓ so it has to I wanted to f I don't want it to feel too cool, you know, like You want it to feel like to represent the festival is so it doesn't look like s like something electronic festival or something like that, but but also to be ex a little bit exciting and and not so ⁓ traditional looking. And has there ever been like a a route or direction that you've kind of proposed for it and it just wasn't the right direction or or is there any struggle you had? I know the weight of the the weight of Dingle is on your shoulders to get it right. But yeah, though people you know, it is it's it's kinda like you've create a kind of a gold standard of of identities in that way and that's why I suppose people you know look to it. Very kind of you to say but ⁓ the pressure. ⁓ I'm adding more. Yeah. ⁓ no like every year I I I try and like come up with some let's be honest, I start off with ⁓ some layout sketches to kind of give me an idea of how I like how I want the text and the image of like a main poster, let's say, to to look. And then I start like sketching up ⁓ so like last year the Puffin was like one of the major icons. And so the icons are always like from ⁓ Dingle or to do Dingle or the surrounds or music. ⁓ but mainly Dingle or nature. So yeah, then I sort of kind of started drawing up ⁓ like so last year I was drawing up some puffins and different illustration styles and I I c I present some different illustration styles and some layouts to them at the start just to see where their heads at. ⁓ and then like we kind of focus on one direction and and go that way. So like ⁓ yeah I was trying to like collage photographs last year and maybe do some things that I hadn't done before. ⁓ but yeah, the direction that we went in sort of like these the illustrations like lived in these shapes. Some described it as ⁓ looking like stain gloss, which I hadn't intended to for it to look like, but I really like that. I think it works as a descriptor very well. ⁓ so there's always like the routes that they haven't chosen and there's a good reason. I think like a few years ago there was one that I really really liked and I was hoping that they would go that direction and they didn't. but then when I look at it, like it works really nice in terms of like functionality for layout, but like maybe the emotion wasn't as strong as the route they went with in the end, you know. So there's always like there's always routes that but you kinda have to trust the guind to it's their festival, you know. They know better than I do. And yeah, it's it's It's pro it's promoting their work and yeah, you got you gotta trust the the direction that they they wanna go in in the end, you know. They must also have a lot of trust in you though, you know. It's like at this point they kind of nearly maybe just you know, it can you know, they they can allow you that f that freedom that you can really maybe be experimental or try new things and yeah bring bring new ideas for those ⁓ considerations. Yeah. No, it's it's a really, really good relationship. Like I ⁓ like know the girls involved and like ⁓ like I have a good relationship with them and ⁓ I really respect them as a client and I always try and go above and beyond. Like so they don't just have the Dingle Festival. So throughout the years throughout the year they do different jobs. So like they usually do one in Guinness and this year they're gonna have ⁓ dairy as well and they've gone to different places. ⁓ so like I'm in contact with them all the time, but like You know, they might send me an email and say, Any chance you could send me over this file? And I'm always like happy to prioritize like getting work to them because like they're a big client for me and I have a great relationship with them and I they respect me and I respect them and it's it's it's really nice and ⁓ yeah, and to be honest, like they also have to sort of trust me in a way because once that initial design is done, there's so many bits involved in this that like if I had to send them every single thing to get a sign off. it would be insane. Like I kind of give them an overall idea and then I start working on the on the different things. Like they do have a look at it and they can change things, but like they just let me go with it once I'm on a roll and like I just start making things up. But ⁓ like if I had to send every single thing over to them for approval, ⁓ like every s little graphic, it would be like it would be crazy. Like so they do trust me in that ⁓ I'm kind of like once we're hitting hitting the road in the direction we're going. ⁓ they kind of like give me a brief of the assets they need and and I just get working on them and usually it's it's all okay. And then just in in terms of like your other some other projects, so your involvement in like repeal and and activism and ⁓ designing for political context. Can you speak little bit about that? Because I know a lot of ⁓ young designers like the idea of, you know, ⁓ design as activism or illustration as activism. and just your kind of your experience of that and and maybe some of the the work that you've done. Yeah, that was like I to be honest, like most of the work that I get, I don't seek out people that come to me. So ⁓ the repeal date ⁓ They came to me about that and ⁓ I guess it wasn't even that big a job, but it was a big thing, you know. So ⁓ it was actually quite a small job to do, but like it's such a big moment in our history that it's very cool to be involved in that. and like I worked on this other ⁓ project called Call It Out and I was just ⁓ doing a little bit of work for that too. And ⁓ again, it's like it's kind of great to be involved in things that you agree with and ⁓ you feel like you're part of history of Ireland too, which is which is great for the ego, I guess. ⁓ but ⁓ yeah and I do a lot of work for ⁓ shout out which is an LGBTQIA plus ⁓ charity but ⁓ I'm queer so I'm happy to work with them and I really ⁓ I'm really happy to work on on work that I agree with, but it's not something that I seek out. People have come to me for it. So I guess they see something in my work or see something in me that they think works for them. Yeah. And it I think it is it's it's, you know, it is when you get to a certain position, it is a responsibility to be able to, you know, lend a hand to ac you know, to to organizations who maybe can't get that get their communication out there and like doing it through the work that you do, like it it's so visual, it's so easy for people to ⁓ to to to spot, to understand, all of that sort of stuff. It it does so much. So it is a really good you know, opportunity to kind of to to show how much design can really help ⁓ organizations as well. And I think it's vital to to kind of do that and and you know I think it's funny that it's always like when there's campaigns on, it's always ⁓ the best design is on the right side, you know? Like you always look at posters and you're like, ⁓ all of the like I mean this is personal, but you know what I mean? You agree with me. Designers are always on the right side, you know, of history. Yeah. Good type is always on the right side of history 'cause you You see some far right posters and it's like, right, whatever, you know, th there's lots of things wrong there. Yeah, yeah. Including the type. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so I suppose really that's I suppose there's a kinda maybe nearly ⁓ a whistle stops tour of some of the types of projects you've worked on in your background. So because the podcast is called Rough Drafts, we kinda always like to know like, you know, what is it maybe maybe you're kind of thinking about in the background and haven't had a chance to execute, or maybe a client that you'd like to work with. Is there something ⁓ that's operating as a rough draft for you right now? yeah. ⁓ well, I always wanted to do a stamp for on bust. I think that would be really cool. But actually at the moment I'm working with ⁓ Image Now on an illustration, not for a stamp, but ⁓ For a illustration for a little booklet for them. ⁓ and that's very fun. So that's like a project maybe in the future I'd like to do. But what I what I what I also like to do is ⁓ for the last few years I've I've been doing some liner print and it's a great way for me to create ⁓ personal projects. what usually happens is I I have loads of sketches of things and sometimes I see sketches and I it they're not used and I just think there's merit in them and l then I end up like creating ⁓ liner prints of them and you know I'm not actually this is one of the liner prints in the background. That was not I didn't put that deliberately there, by the way. This is my neighbor says but ⁓ the but yeah, I like ⁓ just making ⁓ like cards or t shirts for friends or things like that. But like for me it's like a a nice way to use my hands and create actually create something and like print something. And I think it's very fun to do it. ⁓ so that's what I like to do ⁓ in my spare time. My spare time I like to do more research. ⁓ but yeah, that kind of gets me excited about things. And to be honest, it's kind of influenced my work in the last few years too as well. ⁓ like I love the mark that it gives and when you print and everything looks different and ⁓ yeah, so at the moment that's that's where I'm at. Yeah, there's a great texture to it and Lino is great for slowing you down, isn't it? It really kinda, you know, makes you have to be definitive about where you're putting lines and marks on you know it's it's actually it's it's really it's a really good practice. It's meditative al almost in in ways. But so w I I suppose where can people check you out? They obviously if they want to seek you out like everyone can, you have your website, Sarah Maloney.com, the Hundred Archive. You're we didn't even mention how many of your projects are are in there. Countless projects have been have been added to the archive over the years, which is is fantastic. How do you feel actually about like awards? ⁓ I know the archive is not an award, it's it's really a kind of a summation of how design looked in in Ireland. at a particular point in time. But in terms of just kind of, you know, those platforms, other platforms that recognize your work your work, including awards platforms, what do you what do you feel about them? ⁓ to be honest, like I don't really put my work in for design awards. probably could but we're just a bit lazy and like it costs it costs money and like but the 100 archive I think like the 100 archive is just a really ⁓ incredible ⁓ resource that we have here ⁓ it's lovely to be included ⁓ and t to be honest I think it's it's good like personally I think it's nice to get rec recognition from other designers. ⁓ but like I really like it, obviously, for my ego, but like it's not that if you're not included, it doesn't mean that your like design's not worth something. You know what I mean? So in a way, ⁓ yeah. ⁓ I suppose also 'cause I work for myself. I don't really ⁓ interact with designers day to day. ⁓ it's nice to have this like little community there. But the Hunter Archive in general I think is great as a resource. It's n it's just so good to have this like for like historical reasons and also like as a resource a resource for references. ⁓ it's great to see where design is at. It almost feels like you're back in college because you can see what everyone's doing and you know who's done what. And like almost like kind of like you're like, ⁓ I wish I had done that project. That looks so good, you know? And ⁓ like it definitely has like introduced me to designers and their work and that I that I'm like that I wouldn't even have known they had done it if I hadn't like seen the work on the Hundred Archive and ⁓ Yeah. In that way I think it's great for me to like feel like, ⁓ I want to I want to be at a level where these people are at and like kind of pushes you. ⁓ and but also like it's it's great as a resource. And even like when I get work in or I get like people looking for work but I'm I'm too busy or I don't think it would suit my style, I'd send them to the Hunter archive and I'll say, Look, have a look around there and you might you might find an illustrator or a designer that you think might fit this project and ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ yeah, it's great. Yeah, 'cause I th I think it's actually great, especially like as, you know, you know, people are kinda drawn to the likes of Instagram for f and followers and how popular is someone, you know, that kind of thing. And I think people doing really good work don't have as you like yourself, don't really have time for that and that intensity of, you know, g y you know, gathering followers and and you're nearly afraid that like, you know, ⁓ designers are kinda just not seen because of of things like that. But then the archive comes along and What I like about is that like about it is that it's not about the big budget ⁓ projects. Do you know any man? It's about what was culturally, socially ⁓ significant in terms of design in that year, you know, and it it really has a you know, it has a different ⁓ purpose. I also think it's like interesting to see 'cause at the moment I'm on the panel for the long list. So I'm looking at every single project and it's so interesting to see you know, a project will come up and it feels so fresh and so different and like you're like, ⁓ like yeah, that's great, you know, that it's it's like you like kind of what I was saying before, you can a lot of the work might end up sort of looking similar 'cause we're all sort of influenced by what we're seeing, but then like new things come in and then you're like, ⁓ that looks fresh. I want like I love that. You know, yeah, it's you're like you're inspired by that as well, I think, which is great too. Yeah. Definitely. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for today for and thank you thank your neighbour for letting us ⁓ jump in on his Wi Fi. thank you. It's been it's been a lovely ⁓ viewing of your of your work and your projects and it's been great to see you talk about your process and and the ways in which you kinda are proving proving to the world that a hand is at the end of all of the work. It's it's not generated by AI, but that quite interesting. Thank you. Thanks very much, Dial. And ⁓ yeah, it's great what you're doing. I think it's great for the scene in Ireland too. ⁓ so yeah. Thank you to you. Sarah, thank you. All right, see you now. If you like that, why not find us over on our Patreon, where you'll find lots more podcasts, video content and case studies and lots lots more. That's Bounce Creative over on patreon.com.