Latest / Conversations with Amoda Maa - Exploring Awareness Through Dialogue and Living Inquiry / Episode 50: Spirituality in the Marketplace

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Episode 50: Spirituality in the Marketplace · Conversations with Amoda Maa - Exploring Awareness Through Dialogue and Living Inquiry

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  Greetings everyone and welcome back to another Amoda Maa podcast, hello Amoda.
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  Hello, Kavi.
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  Nice to see you.
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  Nice to be back once again.
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  We're trying to keep up with the podcast, but in the midst of so many other things.
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  And, you know, sadly, sometimes we miss a week.
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  And for that, we deeply apologize.
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  If you like these videos and this podcast, please like, subscribe, share it, and that
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  way it kind of challenges us in some sort of way and encourages us to keep on doing them
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  and improve the amount and the quality of the content.
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  So having said that, let's dive into today's subject matter, which is called spirituality
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  in the marketplace.
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  So in this episode, we're going to explore the contemporary culture of spirituality within
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  the marketplace of life.
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  Unlike in previous ages when immersion into the spiritual life was a total devotion by
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  becoming a monk or living on the metaphorical mountaintop, or else took place in the latter
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  years of one's life when householder duties were over.
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  Today, spirituality has filtered into the mainstream culture.
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  I'm going to talk with a modal mark about whether this spiritual filtering into the everyday
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  life has changed the nature of the spiritual path and if there are any obstacles and/or
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  benefits to the marriage of the spiritual and the mundane.
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  A very juicy, a very topical kind of subject matter and very relevant, I think, because
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  This comes up very much in the live events and the online events that we do.
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  This meeting place of the want of better terms, absolute and the secular and the relative and
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  the meeting place of these two, which gives rise to very, very many questions, very, very
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  many dilemmas, etc., etc.
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  So we're going to try and unpack that with a Amoda.
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  And if you don't mind Amoda, the first thing as well as whatever it is that you want to
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  say at the very front, at the very beginning of this, you know, I actually want to, as
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  you said earlier, I want to point out or explore and try and define what we mean by
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  the marketplace.
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  Because I know that this is a term that we use a lot as if it's normal, but it's not
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  not necessarily a regular phrase that people know. So I'm going to hand over to you and
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  ask you to say what the marketplace is and then to keep going from there to open up the
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  conversation.
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  Okay, sounds good. Yes. I mean, it may be obvious what the marketplace is. But on second
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  thoughts, perhaps not so obvious. What we are not referring to is marketing business
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  and those kinds of interactions or that arena of life. We're not talking about the digital world
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  or the marketing world or the entrepreneurial world. It's really the basic definition of marketplace in
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  in the everyday, you know, if we look at a town, a village, it would have a market,
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  a marketplace. That's not just for trading. It's a symbol or reflective of the ordinary
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  human life. I mean, the marketplace can be the washing up, you know, the kitchen, the
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  place where we do the cooking. You know, just the ordinary human life that needs to be taken care of,
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  whether it's chopping wood, carrying water, washing the dishes, going shopping for provisions,
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  and everything and anything that's part of the human experience. So that's really what we're
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  referring to. As you said, the secular, we could call it the mundane, the ordinary, the human.
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  further secular, really secular and the human. Yeah, that's right. Because sometimes, you know,
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  there's a danger in using that term mundane that it already starts to diminish it. And with
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  the one thing that I'm going to be saying is that it can't be diminished on the spiritual path
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  as part of the contemporisation of the spirituality that we're experiencing now.
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  So yes, so that's what we mean by the marketplace, whereas in as you so beautifully said in the
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  introduction in the traditional sense or in older cultures or previous ages,
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  spirituality or the spiritual path, the inner journey, the spiritual exploration and so on,
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  would be separate from the marketplace of life.
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  That's why there are monasteries and ashrams and communities dedicated to that inner exploration
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  or that inner journey and that division, if you like, or separation between the everyday,
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  the householder duties, taking care of family, taking care of business in order to provide
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  home and so on are going to work were very separate for the most part from the inward journey which
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  would require not being distracted if you like by those concerns and really going within.
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  And so now we're talking about the marriage of the two because that's a very contemporary experience
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  and brings up many questions.
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  It really does bring up many questions when you highlight it.
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  You know, in what you just said, it does bring up many, many questions.
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  Is it possible? You know, it's one of them. You know, what's the impact?
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  What are the impact on both the lived life, the human life, and also on, you know,
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  one's deepest longing for spiritual awakening, can these two live not side by side as separate
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  things, but actually within and around and informing each other? Is it possible to take it into the
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  market? I think we're going to cut to the chase and say, yes, it is. I mean, you and I
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  who have lived in the marketplace, all the things that you just mentioned about the washing up,
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  maybe not the carrying water. Well, we do. I go to the store and carry the water because I get
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  that filtered water. You know, we always go, we know. So it is, but you know, it's worthy of
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  exploring of opening it up. So yeah. Well, let's just start perhaps with, again, perhaps stating
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  the obvious, but perhaps it needs to be stated, which is the reality that in our contemporary culture
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  the era that we are alive in, increasingly so, I would say, the spiritual
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  dimension, the spiritual longing, the spiritual inquiry has filtered in to a much wider stream
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  of people from all backgrounds, of all ages and of all cultures, of all perhaps lineages and traditions.
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  And that is in some ways quite new, I should say, a new development, although it's not so new,
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  but in the bigger scheme of things. You know, you have 20-year-olds, people in their 20s,
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  asking the same kind of questions coming to the retreats, what I'm talking about,
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  generally, all kind of spiritual retreats, whether it's non-duality or different kind of spiritual
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  explorations. I don't, as far as I know, I don't think that used to be the case. It really was
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  much more the case. Either it was a sort of a soul's longing that emerged quite early on, and then
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  what the young man or the young woman would dedicate themselves to that life, where they
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  sort of give up the worldly concerns and go and live in an ashram, go and live in a monastery,
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  and dedicate themselves to that. Or it would be something that emerged and developed and was much
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  more possible at a later stage in life, which is a natural turning within anyway. But also the
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  worldly concerns were not tugging on one. That's not the case anymore. So that is very different.
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  And well, that's what we're exploring. Is that an evolution, if you like, or something that bears
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  greater fruit? Or is it an impediment? Is it a confusion? Is it a mixing up? Yeah.
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  So I guess that's what we're going to untangle to some degree.
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  Yeah, so one of the things that when you're speaking, it struck me was actually to a certain
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  extent, let's talk about Western culture, to a certain extent, for the last like 50 or 60 years,
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  it has been happening more and more America has led the way to a certain extent, the West Coast
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  spirituality that emerged in the 50s particularly. And I'm thinking of people, you really like Alan
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  what's, you know, and then and then Ram Das, who actually did bring it back, you know, his
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  experiences and to a certain extent, they were not directly addressing this issue, but they were
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  still immersed in Western culture. You know, the significant thing that has changed is there is
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  an acceleration generally of life anyway and that's compounded and expanded by the internet.
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  The internet has brought spirituality out of books into their homes, not necessarily having to go to
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  see Alan Watts or Ram Das or a motor mile or Rupert Spire or anybody because you can get it all from
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  YouTube and all of this kind of stuff. And this is where the razor's edges in a way is both a
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  beautiful thing because the internet is expanding everything. If you search non-duality on AI,
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  you're going to get a lot of relevant and useful actually information. So that's part of the
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  conversation. So it is part of the zeitgeist of growth of the human experience anyway.
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  Yes indeed and I just on that point perhaps like to address
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  that the zeitgeist, I don't know for how many years past 100 or 200 years but certainly since
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  the 60s, as the world has accelerated and escalated in its, not only its communications network,
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  but its collective awareness, well, through the information network, but its collective awareness
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  of what's going on in other parts of the world in terms of conflict, war, suffering, poverty.
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  And as these issues or social issues, political issues, economic issues have come more and more
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  to the collective awareness, as well as having escalated in intensity people of all ages and
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  cultures, whether they're spiritual or not spiritual, in a conventional sense are looking for answers,
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  are looking for the meaning. Now for some that's going to be on the level of politics, on the level
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  of economics and on that level, which is fine, that everything is valuable. And then for some
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  people they're looking for a deeper, perhaps meaning as to why there's conflict in the world that
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  that seems to perpetuate itself,
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  why there's division and so on and so on.
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  And actually looking for answers that are much deeper.
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  So spirituality is not so much a self-serving concern,
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  although that's part of it,
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  or a transcendent concern,
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  but actually how can it inform our lives?
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  How can a deeper understanding of that,
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  which is invisible, not just visible on the surface of the relative,
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  understanding that there's a whole dimension of beingness within ourselves
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  and within life itself.
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  And how can that inform our lives?
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  Does it inform our lives?
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  Can it inform our lives and can it make any difference to the world?
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  So that's where it's filtered in in a way that is actually part of our
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  evolutionary growth as individuals and as a collective.
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  So on that level, I would say it's absolutely perfect in that way.
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  So then you have, of course, we have all the books and all these teachers emerging
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  right from I mean, right from Ram Das and of course Alan Watts and all of that that
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  happened then.
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  And then the bringing over of yoga to the West and the different movements in that,
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  bringing over of Buddhism in its many different facets.
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  We see that obviously in America so strongly, it's deeply embedded in the culture.
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  And then you've got the Eckhart Tolle that sort of appeared out of nowhere and that has
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  transformed on a massive level.
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  I mean, presence was something nobody used to speak about unless you were a meditation
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  practitioner.
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  And now it's just part of the everyday language.
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  So we see these big cultural changes in understanding that have just seeped into the ordinary.
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  And of course, there are deeper and deeper realms.
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  So yes, something very valuable is taking place with that and very necessary and very
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  organic.
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  And that's very different to how it used to be.
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  hundreds or thousands of years ago, let's say. Well, that had a minuif without going into any
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  history. There has been an enlightenment once. I don't actually know what century it was in,
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  but there was a European enlightenment, which actually did give rise to a new
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  genre, a new version, a new artistically enabled a new creative phase of humanity.
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  So it's not new in some ways, you know, and in light of what you're speaking to, you know,
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  which is this is a very aquarium conversation that we're having. Really, when you say it's
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  perfect, I realize that actually, you know, this mass questioning, you know, is absolutely perfect
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  in a sense because it needs, it does need to happen. You know, that humanity is asking on bigger
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  bigger and deeper and deeper questions itself. Let's say it's an arrogant organism comprised of
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  many and it's asking itself what on earth are we about? Who are we? What are our values? What is
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  the meaning? Yeah, and that is that's exactly the question that needs to be asked on the deepest
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  spiritual level. What is the nature of our existence and how does that inform the mundane?
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  How does it inform the marketplace? Because the deepest transformation or the only true transformation
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  is within. And that's a profound existential question. Who am I? You know, why am I here?
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  And that's not a self-serving question. That's a question that humanity is asking itself
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  through us as individuals. And can that in a transformation really inform the practical,
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  inform our actions, inform the way that we live, inform the way that we relate, not just one-on-one,
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  but nation to nation and so on. So I think there is a big wave of movement that is possible
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  in this marriage, if you like, between the spiritual and the marketplace, the ordinary,
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  the human. And then we can sort of distill that into, well, what does that mean for the individual
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  seeker? Yes, yes, yes. That's right. And are there any, if you like, stumbling blocks or obstacles or
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  hindrances on that path or challenges that perhaps weren't there before because it's
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  one thing to go and live in the metaphorical mountaintop and have fewer worldly concerns
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  and you and I know that we have in some ways lived our lives very much like that up into
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  a certain point, not out of choice, but out of necessity.
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  So we actually know both sides of the coin.
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  And so one can see and experience for oneself
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  what might be a hindrance, a challenge and a blind spot.
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  And how can we really marry the two?
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  How can they really come into coexistence
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  in a way that is seamless, that actually does serve the way
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  that we live as human beings on this planet with other human beings?
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  Yes. Well, we're going to speak to that then because, as you just say, it's kind of easy.
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  Easy spirituality is to say, "What's wrong with the world? It needs to find more meaning."
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  Oh God, do you know when we solve this? But when it comes to the very intimate, to the
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  very intimacy of one's own personal experience, it has a very different energetic effect because
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  It stops being philosophy, spiritual philosophy, or an idea, or a theory, and it starts to get
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  very intimate and very personal. And there has to be a degree of what my might call sacrifice,
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  or soul searching, or looking within. To me, you have to give up the world in order to leave
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  the world in order to go back to the world. That's a tall order in some ways. It was convenient for
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  me because I was in a mystical mess. But so, so, so, yes.
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  Yes. I think you just touched on it there. That is the, perhaps the main anchor or the
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  beginning of this, not the beginning, but one of the main points of this conversation
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  that it's quite, it gets very paradoxical and hence possibly confusing when we're speaking
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  on this level of the interaction between the transcendence and the imminent. It's very
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  easy in some ways to just talk about the transcendence and even experience it and reside
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  in that place. But when you bring it into imminence, then it gets much more complex,
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  seemingly, at least in the expression of it and the understanding of it and the exploration
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  of it. But by "eminence" you mean the marketplace, the form. Okay, good. Just so people know.
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  Into the relative, into the human, into the, yeah. Good.
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  So, yes, let's just start with that because that's an important point.
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  you can't carry two suitcases. You can't. Yeah. And I'm talking about the beginning of the path,
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  really. You can't carry the world. Yeah. And the acquisitions of the world, let's call it that.
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  And seek to know that which is eternal beyond the acquisitive mind. What does that mean? That
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  that doesn't mean that you have to have a life of poverty or a life of giving everything
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  up or a life of a ascetism. It doesn't mean that you are wherever you are in your life
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  and some people come into this with many riches or comforts of the world and some people come
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  with not very much. It doesn't actually matter, but what matters is that the
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  marrying of acquisitions and acquisitions are not just physical things
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  or wealth, material wealth. Acquisitions, everything that the self wants to grasp, hold onto, take
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  possession of in order to feel like it's a better person, a more lovable person, a more recognized
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  person, a more worthy person. And there are many levels of acquisitions. It's the psychological
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  acquisition, you can't carry that as well as look within for that which is free of the
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  acquisitive mechanism. So in that sense, you do have to give up everything in order to
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  find the truth of who you are. And of course, that will take many different shapes and forms
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  for each person. For some people it may mean, well, it'll mean whatever it means depending
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  on what the acquisitive self is holding onto in order to feel better about itself. That
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  could be a dysfunctional relationship or a relationship that's really reached. It's
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  the end of its journey, but you're still holding on. It could mean a job or an idea,
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  an agenda, a dream, a hope, a desire for something, holding on to family in order for
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  security, sort of, yeah, where we barter with life, and in order to feel that we've either
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  got something, got somebody's approval, somebody's recognition, somebody's love, the world's
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  approval. This is the sacrifice that needs to take place. That's the metaphorical mountain
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  top if you like, or the metaphorical cave. We have to go within and be naked in order to truly
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  find something that is much deeper and the true source of fulfillment. That does not always mean
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  that you have to just throw everything away or abandon everything or walk away from everything
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  and go and live in the woods. This is where it becomes paradoxical and this is where there is no
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  map, no template. You can't say, well, you have to do this, this, and this. Each individual has to
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  find that for themselves. So in other words, the commitment to the discovery of what is
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  true on all levels, on the personal level and on the impersonal level, the commitment
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  to that, we can call it truth, we can call it freedom, we can call it liberation, we can
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  call it, whatever it is that is the deepest longing, the longing to come home. That has to be 100%.
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  If that 100% can
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  filter into the lived ordinary experience, then there's really nothing you have to give up
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  or turn away from, it will naturally fall away because it no longer serves the upholding of the
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  acquisitive self. And that's a beautiful thing.
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  No, in what sense?
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  Why is it beautiful?
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  Right. Yeah. Because it sounds to many people, it sounds scary. I have to give up something.
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  I have to give up the world and my lovely home and all the beautiful things I have or my friends.
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  That's not the way to approach it. You don't have to give up anything. Just give yourself
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  to what is your deepest longing and then the external, the relative, or whatever it is,
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  will take care of itself. I don't know how else to put it really.
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  No, I'm struck with the fact, you know, with the dilemma. I am struck here in this moment,
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  with the dilemma in the contemporary human faces. And that dilemma is that we, everyone,
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  is shaped by the marketplace, shaped, formed, told who we are, given the identity,
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  we believed it, hook, line, and sink, even though it might be terrible, and I might have a terrible
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  view of myself and I'm all a failure and it hasn't really worked on a certain level because
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  look at me and I'm a mess but still the world itself, writ large, has shaped the self. It's
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  defined the self and that's the great thing about the turning away Allah Buddha who turned away from
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  the city, from his magnificent life, which was still full of suffering, and something else happened
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  to him. So you can see the attraction because the self itself, with all of its investments that
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  you talked of, the desires, the attachments, the yada yada, the story, the definitions,
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  all of those do have to be surrendered for so-called awakening to kind of complete itself.
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  self. And the trouble is that we work with a lot of people, and there are almost incompletions
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  going on. And I wonder whether that incompletion of awakening, to put it mechanically, is partly
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  because of this very dilemma. I'm not saying it's a good dilemma or a bad dilemma, I'm
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  just trying to get even deeper into the nuts and bolts of this kind of limbo that people
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  can get stuck in.
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  Yes, I think you're absolutely right.
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  I think on this level that we're speaking, we're actually speaking to the more seasoned
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  spiritual seeker, somebody who's been on the path for a long time, there does come a point
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  where it has to be 100%.
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  So if we're talking about the less seasoned seeker, then this may not be as relevant,
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  yeah, because there is much to be gained from an exploration, whether it's the exploration
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  presence or opening the heart or whatever, yeah, or even non-duality that can feed into
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  the life. But at some point, there's a tipping point. And this deeper sacrifice needs to happen.
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  We just have to be clear that the sacrifice is not necessarily on the material level.
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  It's on the psychological level.
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  Yeah, it may have ramifications on the material level, the
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  physical level, but not necessarily.
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  And that we cannot possibly know.
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  I mean, let's just give an example because we're always giving
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  personal examples on these podcasts.
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  I guess for you and I, the sacrifice or the...
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  I don't like that word sacrifice.
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  It sounds too punitive.
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  It was more that everything was given to this,
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  everything was given to this, which meant that in our case,
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  was relevant to us. Social interactions completely fell away. They just didn't have any, they
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  weren't high up on our valueless. They didn't serve anything. You were a wild party person.
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  I was a wild party person for a while, a long, long time ago. Of course, we're much older
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  now so shh, but you know, things that were of value to the self just weren't anymore. Travel
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  became irrelevant going out for meals. I'm talking about very ordinary human things,
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  became irrelevant. Going to the movies, I don't know, I could give million and one examples.
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  having a family, all sorts of things just that are part of the human experience just fell away.
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  Not that I don't know if they were particularly there to begin with, but certainly some of them
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  were. Everything was given to this and it wasn't punitive. It was like such an immersion.
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  Yeah, it was a choiceless choice. Yeah, it was a choiceless choice.
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  Now, in many ways, that deep in slow, if you like, going within has now filtered totally into the world.
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  And we're very interactive on some level. Obviously, some of those things are not of any relevance whatsoever.
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  So there's many different, yeah.
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  Yes, there are.
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  some points, there's a kind of tipping point. And it doesn't feel like a sacrifice. That's where it
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  gets confusing is that often a person on the spiritual path thinks, well, I really should give up
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  going to the movies or watching movies because that's not spiritual. Well, no, no, no, it's not
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  that you should give up anything. Nothing should be given up. It falls away by itself. That's what I
• 4:55
  I mean, being a beautiful thing, that which truly nourishes you, there's so many more
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  riches available than what the small psychological self or the unconscious, un-liberated self,
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  I should call thinks.
• 4:58
  Yeah.
• 4:59
  Yeah, I think, yes.
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  Now, I think what I agree with everything that you're saying.
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  And when we're talking, it strikes me that you, you know, one of the most important things
• 5:02
  is to become really insightfully intelligent. However, that happens. And I don't mean intelligent
• 5:03
  with that informational mind. But I mean, you and I are in the same place. We know ourselves
• 5:04
  extremely well. We've seen inside ourselves, there's an intelligence that is beyond the
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  mental information or educational intelligence. And that's available whether you're in the
• 5:06
  marketplace, you're on the mountaintop, it doesn't really matter where you are and that's what you're
• 5:07
  pointed to and I think the exciting thing is about the memes that go around the spiritual wisdom
• 5:08
  that goes around everywhere now. You see it writ large and sometimes you think, well that's
• 5:09
  insipid and that's diluting the whole of the depth and wisdom of the truth of life but actually on
• 5:10
  on a certain level, it means that there's much more opportunity for people to, if they want
• 5:11
  to be 100%, and that's the thing. It's not going to work with 75%, to be 100%, then buy
• 5:12
  and buy. You actually start to see yourself. You start to see deeper into yourself. Oh,
• 5:13
  that's what's driving me. Oh, it's fear that's driving me. Oh, it's desire for control that's
• 5:14
  driving me. Oh, my parents influenced me in such a way because of their screwed-upness,
• 5:15
  but that's what's driving me. And the simple act, and you've talked about this in many meetings,
• 5:16
  the simple act of awareness, of a deeper and deeper awareness, actually, is what is, that's the
• 5:17
  flame, that's the fire. And that can come in many, many different ways.
• 5:18
  It's deep inside, it's deep inside and honesty. One of the things that's called unawakened
• 5:19
  or unenlightened or un-liberated self is that it has layers and layers of what we could
• 5:20
  call dishonesty. You probably don't want to hear that, but I'm using that word in its
• 5:21
  most pure form, dishonesty in that we pretend we butter, we manipulate, we contort ourselves
• 5:22
  because we've been conditioned that way to get love from others and from the world and even from
• 5:23
  ourselves in a certain way. And in that way, we're sort of not being honest with ourselves.
• 5:24
  What is my deepest longing? Is my longing for the truth, the truth, not a philosophical truth,
• 5:25
  but the truth of what I feel, not emotional because emotional is couched in story and narrative and
• 5:26
  conditioning. But my direct felt sense. And in this way, can I truly know myself or am I just sort of
• 5:27
  living in this bubble of conditioned self, which is the prison? So it is deep insight, deep intelligence,
• 5:28
  deep questioning, deep inner inquiry and deep honesty, the honesty to expose to oneself.
• 5:29
  Wow, yeah.
• 5:30
  When I exposed to myself finally that I was in relationship, not with you.
• 5:31
  Yes, I was thinking about relationships.
• 5:32
  But in relationship previously and previously and previously.
• 5:33
  In order to be loved and know myself as lovable, because actually inside some level,
• 5:34
  I felt myself to be totally unlovable, to be an ugly, duckling, unworthy, and kicked
• 5:35
  out of the nest.
• 5:36
  Like the cuckoo comes into the nest of the little birds and kicks them all out in order
• 5:37
  to get the love and security it needs.
• 5:38
  And I felt like that, the little bird that had been kicked out.
• 5:39
  Oh, man.
• 5:40
  - Yeah.
• 5:41
  (laughs)
• 5:42
  - Yeah.
• 5:43
  So I finally exposed that to myself
• 5:44
  and it was such a raw, devastating feeling.
• 5:45
  It was such an abandonment,
• 5:46
  not just from anybody,
• 5:47
  but from God, from existence.
• 5:48
  And that's the kind of honesty we're talking about.
• 5:49
  Yeah.
• 5:50
  Once we can unveil that and give ourselves 100%
• 5:51
  to that unfoldment that discovery,
• 5:52
  then everything else takes itself, takes care of itself.
• 5:53
  That's really what it means to go into the metaphorical cave,
• 5:54
  or to sit under the Bodhi tree,
• 5:55
  or to go into the mountain top.
• 5:56
  We don't have to physically literally do that.
• 5:57
  This took place in my living room in the city of London.
• 5:58
  It's within.
• 5:59
  And then everything else takes care of itself.
• 6:00
  So we can't carry both those things.
• 6:01
  We can't carry on to our safety and security
• 6:02
  on a psychological level, pretending and covering things up.
• 6:03
  so that we don't feel that core wound if you like and expect to really know ourselves on a spiritual level.
• 6:04
  This is so true. I mean, the same thing in a different way happened for me,
• 6:05
  that I realized at a certain point in the relationship that I was having in the 90s,
• 6:06
  because things had started to fundamentally change for me on so many different levels,
• 6:07
  that actually I realized I was living a lie and I couldn't, I just couldn't anymore. Usually I could,
• 6:08
  and I didn't realize I was. I didn't realize I was pushing it away until I really listened to the
• 6:09
  truth of the matter and the environment that I was in was allowing me to actually acknowledge
• 6:10
  the truth of the matter. And even though it felt like the worst thing that I could possibly do
• 6:11
  ever in my life, I had to own it and I had to bring it forward into the world and it completely
• 6:12
  destroyed the relationship that I was having because it couldn't sustain that and God bless her.
• 6:13
  It was difficult and it happened and since then I have honored the truth within myself
• 6:14
  without compromise, not so it's cruel but just so it's true because I couldn't live with that.
• 6:15
  And it's actually very difficult, it can be very difficult to get to the truth within one because
• 6:16
  we're trained to lie to ourselves, we're trained to cover up to ourselves. And if there is any sort
• 6:17
  of journey in the secular world, that's exactly what you're talking about. And it's very beautiful,
• 6:18
  and it can be painful because you get to one level, and then you get to another level,
• 6:19
  and you get to another level. But that is it, because we live by compromise. And that compromise
• 6:20
  works to a certain extent and then it stops working and then we live in some other world of ghost
• 6:21
  ghost world and you can't be a ghost and wake up to the spiritual nature of yourself. You can't
• 6:22
  it's at the end of that ghosting. Yeah, for sure. So with that,
• 6:23
  with that,
• 6:24
  that, there then comes, if you like that's a kind of the inward path, which is primary
• 6:25
  without that, nothing transforms.
• 6:26
  And then there's the, if you like, an outward path in which, again, here is a stumbling
• 6:27
  block that we're well aware of, which many call spiritual bypassing, which is the avoidance
• 6:28
  of the ordinary human experience or the belief that now that I've discovered this, that
• 6:29
  now that there's a liberation from that prison of self-identity, I don't have to get my hands dirty
• 6:30
  in the world. So one is the stumbling block is the one of not giving 100% to this inner
• 6:31
  inquiry, this inner honesty, this inner self-exposure if you like, which is the beginning of the journey
• 6:32
  or the end of the journey. But then there's the outward journey which has a stumbling block,
• 6:33
  which is, "Oh, now I don't need to get involved in the world because I've gone beyond it or
• 6:34
  everything's perfect, I'm perfect," and so on. And that's the whole conversation about spiritual
• 6:35
  bypassing and how that truth, how that truth of the realization of one's true nature beyond
• 6:36
  self-identity filters into the human experience, which is both not a conversation or concern
• 6:37
  of previous ages, but it is one that is of utmost necessity in the age that we live in,
• 6:38
  because going right back to the beginning of our conversation, we are looking, if you like,
• 6:39
  collectively as part of our evolutionary stage, if you like, of consciousness, for that deep truth
• 6:40
  of who we are, to filter into the human interaction, the human actions, to end ultimately, to end
• 6:41
  division, both within and without, to end the divided self and therefore to end the division
• 6:42
  in the world, if that's at all possible. So that outward journey is very necessary part,
• 6:43
  and that has various stumbling blocks. One of them, which is, I don't have to get my
• 6:44
  hands dirty in the world because I've transcended it. And that's a bubble, if you like, a myth
• 6:45
  that very much needs to be burst or disentangled because we do live in the world. We do live
• 6:46
  in the marketplace. And that which has been discovered as the truth of who I am is not
• 6:47
  separate from that? Is this, are you pointing to the necessity for it to come out of the
• 6:48
  mind and enter the heart realm for the feeling sense, if you like, to be involved?
• 6:49
  when all of that, yes, or all of that, but first of all, to understand that
• 6:50
  if we want to call it awakening out of the limited self, the self identity, the ego identity,
• 6:51
  and the liberation of that awakening out of that, the realization of the truth of who I am
• 6:52
  is not a static transcendent state.
• 6:53
  Oh, right. Yes, sorry.
• 6:54
  Yeah, first of all, to really accept that and to at least on the level of acceptance,
• 6:55
  there's a kind of door that opens, which allows it to then filter into
• 6:56
  every aspect of the human experience, because that is one of the major stumbling blocks.
• 6:57
  Yes, it is. Yeah.
• 6:58
  you know, I know the truth, I've experienced the truth, I've experienced an awakening and so on and so on.
• 6:59
  But life is still difficult, or why do I still have a painful relationship, or why are there
• 7:00
  challenges in my, I don't know, work or financial situation? And there's a lot of confusion there.
• 7:01
  So this is another part of it, first the inward journey, now the outward journey.
• 7:02
  And again, this is something that perhaps in somebody who's devoted themselves to being in a
• 7:03
  spiritual community or ashram of some kind or monastery of some kind, doesn't have to deal with that question.
• 7:04
  But we do have to deal with that question.
• 7:05
  Well, yes, because these things, some of this is a circular conversation, isn't it?
• 7:06
  because the world itself is a trigger, is the trigger. And that trigger is either going
• 7:07
  to work, keep us stuck in our reactiveness, or else it's going to open the door of us
• 7:08
  up to a deeper intimacy with our life and with the world itself, which, if I hear you
• 7:09
  right, is what you're talking about, is a necessary part of the evolution of awakening.
• 7:10
  Yes, let's put it in somewhat, perhaps graphic terms. How can I live in the matrix without being
• 7:11
  identified by the matrix? Which is not a question, if you imagine yourself as a yogi or whatever it is
• 7:12
  in a cave that you have to ask yourself because you've totally turned away from the matrix.
• 7:13
  The only matrix that remains is the one in your mind. But if there's awakening out of that matrix
• 7:14
  and there's no external matrix, then there's nothing to tug on it, nothing to challenge it,
• 7:15
  nothing to it. But that's not relevant anymore. The relevance now is, how can I be in the matrix?
• 7:16
  without being identified by the matrix. And for sure, if you have pierced through the
• 7:17
  matrix within, in other words, all the false identities that we have that identifying with
• 7:18
  our thoughts, identifying with our emotions, identifying with our perceptions, identifying
• 7:19
  with our beliefs, identifying with myself as a separate self. Yeah. When the arrow or
• 7:20
  the, yeah, of truth has penetrated all those veils and you discover the truth of what you
• 7:21
  are. And that's awakening. And you're living as an ordinary human being in the world, in
• 7:22
  matrix, you're not turning away from it to go and live in a monastery, then there is
• 7:23
  the possibility of that matrix sticking to you or not. But it's a journey. It's not a
• 7:24
  guarantee that you've awakened truly and then you're involved in the world. You have
• 7:25
  family or you have children or you have a job or you have a house, yeah, all the things that we do.
• 7:26
  And you're completely immune. That is a fantasy. That is a fantasy that can become
• 7:27
  a kind of a sonar, a veneer. And that is very common. And what we're saying here,
• 7:28
  Yeah, and not useful.
• 7:29
  No, what we're saying here, that even after awakening,
• 7:30
  however profound it might be,
• 7:31
  there is a journey in which you are still immersed
• 7:32
  in the lived reality,
• 7:33
  even though many things may have fallen away,
• 7:34
  but there's still a certain kind of matrix, yeah,
• 7:35
  that goes on, interaction, yeah,
• 7:36
  that can stick somewhere or tug on you
• 7:37
  and create another subtle layer.
• 7:38
  And the journey is the continuing self honesty, clarity of seeing, looking within, and ongoing
• 7:39
  willingness to give yourself to that which is true.
• 7:40
  Even though it may hurt, even though you may have ideas that the journey isn't complete,
• 7:41
  even though whatever the reasons are, and that's called the embodiment of awakening.
• 7:42
  And that, at least as far as I can see, is a new possibility that perhaps wasn't so available
• 7:43
  or relevant in the old days of the spiritual path, because the world would be given up
• 7:44
  to some degree or to all degree as much as possible.
• 7:45
  But now it's a very important part.
• 7:46
  And that is the true.
• 7:47
  Let's say there's something evolutionary about that.
• 7:48
  There's something, if I can say, even exciting about the.
• 7:49
  I think so.
• 7:50
  Yeah, I think it's I'm excited.
• 7:51
  It really is the marriage of the human and the divine.
• 7:52
  Beautiful is it really is. Yeah. I absolutely listening to that is so beautiful, really, because
• 7:53
  it sort of says, the world is your, the world is your teacher. You know, the world is your teacher,
• 7:54
  what's coming into your orbit, you're going to have to be mental about this. What's coming into
• 7:55
  your orbit is your teacher. You might not like it. It might really hit the self, the self-possessed
• 7:56
  self, self-cherishing self so much and it hurts because you've got so much to let go of or so
• 7:57
  much to open up to. But it doesn't stop the basic sort of, you know, somehow core truth on the deep,
• 7:58
  deep level of natural intelligence that the world is the teacher, the world is a master.
• 7:59
  And when one can realize that and open to it without saying, I've lost it, I've lost it,
• 8:00
  I've lost it and actually the merging of self with that world,
• 8:01
  that's it, that's what you're talking about. And that is a beautiful new way of seeing the world
• 8:02
  itself, I believe. And with that also, there are many, let's call it aspects of the world that will
• 8:03
  no longer have any. Yeah, that way. Yes. Oh, yeah, it's not like we have to be just totally
• 8:04
  in the world all the time and deal with everything. Not at all. It'll just sort of fall away,
• 8:05
  but there'll still be some world going on. We've still got to live. That's what I mean. Yes.
• 8:06
  There's a great beauty in that. And also within that, there are cycles and waves. There are times
• 8:07
  where there's just this great enjoyment of solitude and simplicity, and then there's times where,
• 8:08
  if you like, the river is running, bubbling along and it's quite active.
• 8:09
  And yet, none of it is feeding the self on that surface level.
• 8:10
  No, that's right. The nourishment, the fulfillment is beyond all that.
• 8:11
  I think there was an expectation, or an imagination, or a hope, the movement of phenomena.
• 8:12
  The movement of the phenomena world is somehow going to cease. I think it's just an imagination,
• 8:13
  of course, but it's very prevalent, maybe hidden in people that the, you know, that which is
• 8:14
  uncopable with, you know, in awakening in the world, not on the mountaintop, but in the world,
• 8:15
  somehow that phenomena is going to cease. The waves are going to stop and the placidity,
• 8:16
  the ocean is going to become incredibly peaceful, even on the outside. And I think that's part of
• 8:17
  the illusion that you were talking about from one of the things that I really have always gained
• 8:18
  from you is to recognize that the phenomena world, the movement of phenomena never stops.
• 8:19
  You might stop, but it never stops. And that's a different thing because that means you don't
• 8:20
  have to, when the wave goes high, and even in our lives, we get trouble coming in, we get intense
• 8:21
  periods, you know, of the phenomena world throws itself at you, you know, but not to start dividing
• 8:22
  it up again. Oh, well, that's wrong. Oh, well, that shouldn't be happening because then you
• 8:23
  just jump back into the same thing, right? Yeah. I must say that I've found a night,
• 8:24
  I think this is part of the sort of shift, the inner shift that takes place that does have an
• 8:25
  impact on the external as well, not not so much in the way that we expect or imagine. But it's
• 8:26
  The problems that used to be, let's say prior to Awakening, which were much more dramas and,
• 8:27
  I don't know, let's put it this way. I find these days that the
• 8:28
  challenges that come or even the intensive, the intense situations or let's say challenges
• 8:29
  that come which are part of the phenomenal world especially when you're engaged on some
• 8:30
  level with the world.
• 8:31
  In America.
• 8:32
  Perhaps that I think is true everywhere.
• 8:33
  I know but it's especially in America.
• 8:34
  I, but when they land on your doorstep, I'm not talking about just the collective.
• 8:35
  I'm talking now when they're very personal.
• 8:36
  Yeah, they touch you personally and obviously the collective also touches us,
• 8:37
  but on a personal level, and I'm talking directly from my own experience,
• 8:38
  but I think this is the way that it is.
• 8:39
  If you're awakened and living in this way and, you know,
• 8:40
  the embodied awakening is that what comes as a challenge
• 8:41
  on a personal level wherever it comes from, however it appears, is no longer perhaps related
• 8:42
  to or seen or experienced even as some drama or terrible thing or punishment or something
• 8:43
  or accident that's happened and what's wrong with my life. But it's actually here because
• 8:44
  it's inviting a deepening of the embodiment of presence and openness, the embodiment of that
• 8:45
  which is eternal, the embodiment of the light of beingness, even within that challenge. It's here
• 8:46
  for our personal growth, if you like, not as a something terrible as happened. And that changes,
• 8:47
  whether that's because the internal shift of perception has taken place or whether that's actually
• 8:48
  how it is, and the universe is benevolent in that way, and it brings us these possibilities or
• 8:49
  opportunities for growth, because we still continue to grow as human beings awakened or not,
• 8:50
  you know, there's still a maturation of the human being in wisdom and experience, in the ability
• 8:51
  to be present in all circumstances and all of that, that's what I think is different.
• 8:52
  Now, of course, something collective may take place like a war. Is that an opportunity for growth?
• 8:53
  Is that an opportunity for personal maturation or is that simply a random or not so random,
• 8:54
  but an event that's taking place that I don't know? I mean, there could be a plane crash. Anything
• 8:55
  could happen. So there obviously is part of the phenomenal world that may not be for
• 8:56
  our growth, but maybe it is on a different level. Maybe it's growth on a soul level,
• 8:57
  and a invisible level. But anyway, that's how I'm experiencing it right now at this stage of my
• 8:58
  life. I recognize that because I think that I'd describe this slightly different and say that
• 8:59
  the self is fallen away and so no longer in the phenomena world, really it finds itself.
• 9:00
  There's no self to be found in it, which means that it's much, for me, the phenomena.
• 9:01
  You know I've had a problem with the phenomena of my mind, the phenomena of my emotion, the
• 9:02
  phenomena of displaying in the neighborhoods has irritated me and haunted me for really
• 9:03
  quite a long time. And now things have changed. So I see that the phenomenal world is an invitation
• 9:04
  for me to be right where I am, just exactly right here, and to not move from that place,
• 9:05
  but not in a tight way, but just in a loose way, so that I can stay in this place of self-mastery.
• 9:06
  And that reminds me of the Zen farmer, who had all these trust, terrible things happen,
• 9:07
  his horse was stolen, his son was a... And he just said, "All the time, we'll see."
• 9:08
  We know when it was like the drama. You've got to react to the drama, Mr. Farmer, and he's like,
• 9:09
  "We'll see. We'll see." And the phenomena came and the phenomena went. And still, he was just
• 9:10
  staying there as the infinite presence of who he really is. And that was a blessed relief for him,
• 9:11
  and I think a boon on the world because that's kind of key.
• 9:12
  That's contagious.
• 9:13
  - That's being in the Matrix without identifying the Matrix.
• 9:14
  - Well, yeah.
• 9:15
  - Here you are, something fabulous is happening, yes?
• 9:16
  And then, yeah, great.
• 9:17
  - Well, this is the, let's talk about the Matrix.
• 9:18
  - The terrible's happening.
• 9:19
  - The film The Matrix, you know, it was exactly that
• 9:20
  because, you know, when he was taken into the Matrix
• 9:21
  by Morpheus into the simulation of the Matrix,
• 9:22
  walking along in a New York street.
• 9:23
  The first thing he did was throw the woman
• 9:24
  in the red dress at him.
• 9:25
  The woman in the red dress walked by
• 9:26
  and he was like, oh my God,
• 9:27
  there's a woman in the red dress,
• 9:28
  which is just the natural reaction of a man.
• 9:29
  And it was like, they got you.
• 9:30
  You're back. - Yes, that's right.
• 9:31
  - You're back in the desire body, Neo.
• 9:32
  The point of leaving the Matrix is to heal yourself
• 9:33
  back to union and then you can walk in the Matrix
• 9:34
  without being pulled by desire or repulsion or the shiny things or anything.
• 9:35
  You can just stay where you are.
• 9:36
  That's what you're talking about.
• 9:37
  That's just beautiful.
• 9:38
  That is.
• 9:39
  And that makes all the difference to how we are in the world.
• 9:40
  Absolutely beautiful.
• 9:41
  Yes.
• 9:42
  OK.
• 9:43
  It's a good.
• 9:44
  It's a it's a it's a very good conversation.
• 9:45
  I mean, we have this conversation, you know, in our meetings, you know,
• 9:46
  not quite to the level that we can explore it here.
• 9:47
  And I feel that it's worthy of opening it up.
• 9:48
  So you never know we might do another one.
• 9:49
  Part two, keep on exploring.
• 9:50
  I'll just get something more out of you.
• 9:51
  Otherwise, have we concluded the inconclusive?
• 9:52
  Yes, I think that's enough now.
• 9:53
  Okay. That was a very beautiful conversation.
• 9:54
  and you do not know how much I like talking to you in these podcasts.
• 9:55
  It's absolutely exquisite. I must admit.
• 9:56
  So I thank you for the opportunity, Amoda,
• 9:57
  and I thank everybody for the opportunity for us to explore
• 9:58
  and in our an aquarium way, you know,
• 9:59
  and hope that it's useful, hope that it's useful in supporting this integration.
• 10:00
  It's very juicy, very relevant, very important, exquisite, painful,
• 10:01
  beautiful meeting place, dissolvement of the apparent absolute and the apparent relative.
• 10:02
  Because remember, there is no apparent division. There is no division. All is one thing. And
• 10:03
  that's the end of the podcast. Thank you very much for listening and watching. We'll see
• 10:04
  you again soon. Namaste, Amoda. Namaste, everybody.