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Why a NICU Mom Can't Give to NICU Charities with Maria Bryan · find your cause

• speaker-0: I can't bring myself to donate to organizations that are solving the issues that I experience, which you think I would be their best, most loyal rabid fan, but instead I am so activated by their messaging that I can't get through it till the call to action. We're going to come to a place where our donors are gonna be deeply turned off by exploitive messaging, deeply turned off by urgent and melee. Ask and it's gonna backfire in a really big way. speaker-1: Alrighty. So thanks everyone for tuning in to this episode of Find Your Cause. Today we have Maria Bryan, who's the partnership marketing manager at DonorBox, but also the founder of One Bearing Witness. Maria, thank you so much for your time today. speaker-0: Joseph, it is such an honor to be here hanging out with you. speaker-1: Yes. I'm excited to get into some of the topics we started talking about before hitting record. But before we do, let's start with donor box and one bearing witness. So what are the organizations and what are the missions of those organizations? speaker-0: Absolutely. So I'll start with a little bit of my journey. I've been a career storyteller. I studied journalism and went right into nonprofit marketing. And then it's probably about 10 years in, I started my own consultancy where I was training folks on marketing and storytelling and how to create a really great campaign. And during that time, I had a student that asked me how trauma informed storytelling works in my framework, and it just changed. my life and I stopped my services and dug deep into what it means to be a storyteller with a trauma informed lens in practice. And that's where Windbearing Witness came to be. When Bearing Witness is a training program and it's also a podcast that walks folks through this journey of becoming a trauma informed storyteller and fundraiser. And Donor Box is a Powerful, sophisticated tool for fundraising, both in-person fundraising and online giving. We also have a CRM. And for about two years, I was a donor box ambassador. And so they in a very big way supported my program. And I was able to also promote Donor Box, which is a values-driven tool that I believe in. So after two years of that, there was an opportunity to join the team. So now I manage the ambassador program. So I'm working with a lot of my consulting and coaching friends in that capacity and supporting the amazing things that they do. And then they also promote our tool. And I just have to say the reason that I'm, you know, here talking about this topic on behalf of DonorBox is because Donor Box has just committed to values and community driven fundraising and storytelling. So that's what brings me here. speaker-1: Yeah, amazing. So trauma informed fundraising. First of all, for people that maybe are not as familiar with trauma informed and what and why that's important, I feel like most people know the word trauma. So maybe let's start there before the trauma informed, because it could be a word, especially me having interviewed a lot of organizations, that appears constantly. Like how do you and have you define trauma and how has that evolved over the past ten or so years? speaker-0: Yeah, it's a really important question because actually I knew of the word trauma for many years until I really started studying it. And there's some misconceptions around what trauma is. Trauma is a natural, brilliant body response that keeps us safe and protected when our body is in danger or when our body perceives that we're in danger. So when we're actually in danger, we have the fight, flight, freeze, or fawn response. These happen almost immediately based on what our body knows to do to keep us safe, but also what's in our DNA and genetics and previous life experiences that we've had that all culminates in like what we do when we are not feeling safe or we are in danger. Oftentimes we talk about trauma, what we're really talking about is re-traumatization, or you're having that trauma response when in fact you are safe. You are safe. So you're remembering or maybe you're acting made it by something you read or even a smell, it can be anything that will your body will experience that and then go back into that trauma state. That is where trauma becomes unhealthy and doesn't necessarily benefit our body and can have all kinds of consequences. So what does it mean to be trauma informed? Being trauma informed is being aware that whether you see it or not, likely everyone that you are interacting with has experienced some kind of trauma. And this trauma response can come up When someone is telling their story and when someone is receiving a story in the context of fundraising, even the whole donation journey from hearing the story to being asked to give to giving in that ongoing relationship, trauma responses can come up and maybe backfire the community that we're trying to build with our donors. And of course, it can backfire with our community members when we ask them to share their story and we don't do so in a way that protects their safety and their agency. So that's what being trauma informed is. It's being aware and we don't promise safety, right? We can't promise safety because I'm not in your body, Joseph. So I might say something that's upsetting to you and that might activate something in you, and I won't know it, but I can do what I can to provide safety and also agency and autonomy through throughout this. And I think one thing to also share for a lot of your listeners is that folks in the nonprofit space are typically very caring, empathetic, deeply passionate people. And this is where we have to have boundaries between being trauma informed and trauma responsive. So trauma responsive is really for those who are licensed to deal with active trauma or ongoing therapy to help them heal through trauma. And likely folks when they are gathering and telling stories or fundraising or advocates for their community, their role is not necessarily to be trauma responsive, but to be trauma aware. In trauma informed. speaker-1: Is it I don't want to make assumptions, but is it safe to say that probably in the nonprofit space there are more instances of trauma that one would interact with versus like a for-profit space, or is it the same? We just don't really talk about it as much. speaker-0: I would say absolutely, because we're in the business of reducing harm. We're in the business of working with people in some of the most painful seasons of their life. So we exist because of harm that exists. And harm, whether that is something that impacts relationships between people or people themselves, whether that's public health or something relational to animal welfare and even climate change and climate issues, it all impacts people. So I do think that we should be aware because some people say to me, but what if it's just a nonprofit that helps seniors ride bikes? There's no trauma there. And that's also something when it comes to for profit, especially for profits. And I work for DonorBox, right? Which is a for profit organization, but it's a social enterprise that serves nonprofits, where you can use language in a way and messaging in a way that is trauma informed and not activating for people. So I think it matters everywhere. It matters with every interaction we have, but it deeply impacts those in the nonprofit space. And I will add to that that those who are in the field and directly implementing services are typically given the tools on how to be trauma aware and trauma informed. And it's our nonprofit marketers and storytellers, communicators and fundraisers that don't have those tools and knowledge. And that's the gap. that has become my life's work is that our storytellers and our fundraisers are moving money into really important missions and their work is truly making the world a better place. And I want them to have the tools to do so in a way that mitigates harm, which is what brought them to their role to begin with. speaker-1: Yeah. I would love to hear some examples, but before I do, I think why this is important f for me too. I feel like it's easy to just fall back on just focusing at so ser a nonprofit executive director or part of an organization, that just having the intention and thinking and feeling and knowing that what you're doing is adding positive impact to the world and not just going about not thinking about things and not thinking about the traumatic experiences that people you might be interacting with might have. It sounds like there is a responsibility that we should have going into this of at least getting informed on what this is and this topic. But just to make it maybe clear via examples, can you share a before and after of an organization that there's an obvious focus on a community that has been impacted by trauma and what that organization would look like before being trauma informed and after being trauma informed. And then we'll use an example of when maybe not so obvious organization. speaker-0: Sure. So there's a few things that you said that are really important. And one is having good intentions is not enough to mitigate harm. And I say that for myself, who I believe is a trauma-informed person. I'm also a white woman and I don't live in the experience of millions of other people. And so I have my biases, I have my blind spots. So even for myself and those who go through my program and those that are really well versed in what it means to be trauma. aware and trauma informed, it doesn't mean that harm will not happen. And I also say that with a great deal of grace, because this is not a destination. This is a journey. This is something that we will constantly have to do with humility and be open to feedback when harm has happened and to have a plan in place when harm has taken place. So the example I want to talk about is comic relief. And their mission is a just world free from poverty. And also real quick, want to make sure that I give credit where credit is due. Cause this it's down to me. speaker-1: That's such a creative name for a nonprofit too. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. So Comic Relief is a UK-based nonprofit. And one thing that they did for many years is they would host these events and they would bring on comedians to shed light on some of these issues to gather people. And I think that in of itself was like a really brilliant way to invite people in. But something that they started noticing and got feedback on is that they were typically taking white folks in. The UK and the United States and bringing them into these impoverished countries. And what that does is it really can skew the story, it can bring in this white saviorism. And these have huge impacts on trauma, communities that have experienced trauma. So they took a look at this and they decided: how can we tell stories in a way that doesn't flatten them? And so they started bringing in spokespersons that were from the community and actually highlighting people that are doing the work in the community instead of having spokespersons that are what we would consider influencers and celebrities to do that. So I just want to highlight an organization that was aware of what they were doing, even though it had a big fundraising impact. It was possibly causing harm to well was definitely causing harm to their community. It was likely Broadening stigmatizations and this idea that donors are here and our community is here and really othering both. Really proud that they took a an inner look at that. And think there's a lot of international organizations that we've used as case studies of worst-case scenarios of what we do in trauma-informed storytelling, those that really bring in messages that exploit trauma. That take out characters where we're only really looking at a really painful experience, but we're not bringing in the big picture of folks in the field that are doing a lot to change this. They're parents, other mentors, and things like that. And they're doing things differently now. And unfortunately, a lot of smaller nonprofits, I think, are still taking lessons from their campaigns 10, 20 years ago that we perceived as successful. And not paying attention to how actually they've changed to be more ethical and trauma informed and their messaging has changed quite a bit. I will share something personal, and I'm gonna give a a content warning here. I'm going to talk about the NICU and like pediatric NICU. So if this is upsetting, this might be a time to pause here. This is a story that ended well, but this is something that I experienced. My daughter was in the NICU for the first week of her life. And when she went into the NICU, I didn't know why she was brought to the NICU. They didn't really tell me. And I honestly didn't know if I'd see her alive again. That's how quickly it all happened. And we actually had to bring her to a completely different hospital across town. I lived in Manhattan, New York City at the time. It was a deeply, deeply traumatic experience for me. And from an audience perspective, when I sometimes watch videos and PSAs from pediatric hospitals. And I hear the loudspeaker and I see images of pediatric like NICU hospitals and the wires and the beeping, it's incredibly activating for me. It brings me right back there. I can almost smell the hallway of that NICU or what it was like when my daughter was taken away from me the day after she was born. So, from a messaging perspective, not just are we being trauma informed with our community, like comic relief. But how we treat our donors and being aware that do we want to create a pulling heartstrings or if it bleeds, it leads, all these things that I was taught as a journalist and early in my nonprofit marketing career can backfire in a huge way because I can't bring myself to donate to organizations that are solving the issues that I experience, which you think I would be their best, most loyal rabid fan. But instead, I am so activated by their messaging that I can't get through it till the call to action. So it impacts everyone in the ecosystem. It can impact those who we work with and serve and whose stories we tell, and it can impact our partners and our audience members and even staff. So I'll pause there for now. speaker-1: Yeah, no, that's great. And thank you for sharing your experience in that example. I think it helps shed a lot of light and provides a real your experience example as well as the organization communicator relief's example. So kind of digging deeper into that too, for the executive directors of nonprofits that are thinking about their mission statement and thinking about stories that they want to tell to share with the public of the impact they're having. What are some of the questions they should be asking themselves that lead them to being a little bit more trauma informed and help mold maybe what story to tell or what to preface the story with, which was I think what you did with the Nikki example. I'd love to educate and get your thoughts on what are questions they should be reflecting on. Yeah. speaker-0: I think there's two things that we need to be doing simultaneously. One as being trauma-informed as a reminder, that is being aware that everyone we're interacting with may be activated or have a trauma response in this story or in this donation journey. So we should know that the three kinds of people that are in this journey. Let's just say you're creating your end of your campaign. Right now we're in giving season. I don't know when this goes live, but right now we're in giving season. A lot of people are starting to create their end of your giving campaign. To know that this process impacts the story owner, so the person whose story that you are choosing. It impacts your story receivers, your which are your audiences and your donors and potential donors. And it also impacts you deeply as the storyteller who is Bearing witness to some of these very, very painful and traumatic stories. So, first it's understanding the three kinds of people impacted by this. And then going through the journey from beginning to end, starting with, we know we need to have a campaign and we know that a stories move action. They move people. So I'm not gonna say throw out stories. That's the last thing I want to do. So we start with we need a story. So story readiness, we have a story in mind. To is this person ready to tell their story? Do they have support systems in their life? Do they fully have consent? What does the consent conversation look like? And then it's reaching out to them and the interview, the whole interview process. There's a lot that we can do to provide safety and agency during the interview process. Then we move into the story crafting process. And I think the story crafting process is we're always keeping in mind all three, but this is a really important time to be keeping in mind both the story owner. But also our audiences and potential donors. This is like you said, where we can bring in content warnings, right? This is for where we can think about our calls to action. Are we using guilt shame manipulation, even if we don't intend to, but we've been taught to? We've always been taught show the urgency, right? Now or the never, donate today. Or and this happens so much in things like climate change and environmental issues, where it's just like you feel like if you don't act, this will all go away. And it can be paralyzing. So think about your language and how they might impact your audience. And of course, think about how it might impact your story owner. Are we using languages that makes them a one-dimensional character that doesn't have other loved ones, doesn't have other nonprofits that are serving them, that is so fully deficit-based. Deficit-based means we're really only honing in on their deficits. On their challenges and why they're here, and only really focusing on the most painful part of their life. That doesn't mean we don't water down their reality. That doesn't mean we're not speaking truth to power. But what that means is where can we bring in what we call asset base? Asset framing is was coined by Trivian Shorters. And it's instead of just talking about people's deficits, where can we also talk about their strengths and their aspirations? Now we're telling a more nuanced, contextualized. Story. Creating the story is like a really important time. And the through line through this is really just slowing down and making sure that we are giving time to be able to provide a lot of these details and to just give thoughtfulness to it. And then we move into the review process. If there's an opportunity for the story owner to look at the story, I think that's really key because one of the most trauma-triggering things that could happen is that you got their pronouns wrong or you got their name wrong, or maybe they were talking about. How their daughter showed up and you talked about it being their son or their aunt. These little details when they were vulnerable enough to share it can be deeply upsetting. So even these little details, fact-checking them and also giving them the opportunity. Also, they might have in the interview felt they could have totally disassociated and not remembered anything that they said, which to be honest, Joseph, if you don't know this, every time that you interview someone, they're likely disassociating. Like I at the end of this will be like, I hope that I said that. It's okay. Because when we are being interviewed, we tend to disassociate and just focus on getting through in the conversation. I'm very comfortable right now, but I also know as soon as this ends, I'll be like, I don't really remember what I said. This is what happens when we're interviewing our clients as well. They might have overshared, they might have undershared, so there's missing context. Allowing them to see their story just allows them to say, I know I shared that and I consented to it, but now that I see it, I don't think that would, I don't think my family would appreciate that, or I just that's information that I don't. want to be shown. I also want to just backtrack a little bit. I think that we need to also be talking about the fact when we're crafting stories that they don't need to be singular stories. We have a lot of freedom to create composite stories, which is stitching together a few stories and just being clear that this is an experience that a lot of our beneficiaries and clients have, but to protect them, we're not going to share their names and their images. Anonymous stories where we're changing their name and a few other things. These are all really important trauma-informed ways. That we can make sure that they are legally safe, that their reputation is saved, and that they're not at risk for actual physical safety if the story is shared. So they might not even know this can be an anonymous story. After review, and then it goes to publication. And that's where it begins, not where it ends. Really, once it's out in the world, that now becomes a legacy. That's where a story becomes a legacy. Are there pathways for community members to let you know that there's it's written in a way that was activating in a negative way for people? Will a story owner be able to reach out and say, it's time for that story to come down? I've been seeing you reusing it for the past five years. I know it was a great story, but that season in my life is over. I'm in the healing stage and I'd like that story taken down. Also, and I'm talking a lot about storytelling. Once we are publishing that story. We are going to have a call to action. This is something that we should have, right? We want to have a call to action. And this is where we're again going back to our audiences and donor members. So when we're telling this story, and now we're going into the ask, it's really important that we are not using false urgency. And actually, people are able to create their own urgency. We don't have to create that for them in our copy and in our multimedia. So be thoughtful. When you're reading these stories, think if I were to read this direct mail campaign to one of my grandparents or to an aunt and uncle or to a loved one, would I feel comfortable with this language? And then suddenly it's not like you're writing to a thousand people, but you're writing to one person. And it really allows you to think, maybe this is a little bit more manipulative than I thought. Ask others that are not in your nonprofit, do you think this language is evoking a sense of community and solidarity and hope and inspiration? Or it is evoking guilt and shame? What my dear friend Maria Rio says, the go-away gift. People are just so consumed with anxiety and stress and shame and guilt that they actually will give, but you're not cultivating a longtime relationship with that donor, right? Because they might not. give a gap. Yes, it's mouthful and my training is pretty long, but and it feels it can feel very overwhelming. But I think it can just be bringing in from the story owner and your audience member to think, what if this was my loved one? What if this was my daughter, my son, my parents, my nieces and nephews, my grandparents, my beloved neighbor or pastor or a mom? And would this be something that would make them feel crowd and part of this community, or might it activate a trauma response? speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. I think this detail that you shared is really important because I had not thought of it as a journey through the development, like soft launch and then the full launch of whatever campaign or story that you want to be told and how there's multiple checkpoints and opportunities to pause to ensure that whoever is is volunteer for telling the story in the example you shared does feel safe throughout the entire process. And I think what you shared as well is Which is really interesting. And I never thought of it as after they maybe agree to do something and it's out in the public, maybe they change their mind and checking back in. I think that's something that's it's very hard to move beyond that or to forget about that on the check-in. So these are all really good questions that I think listeners are gonna get a lot of value from thinking about as they're tr trying to figure out the best way to tell their story. Is there a balance? So thinking of like a pendulum, putting myself in the shoes of like a couple of different types of people nowadays where like tr trauma informed can be viewed maybe by some as this is a real world. So like exposure therapy, like the we we gotta people have to know what the real world's like. But at the same time, is there like an opposite pendulum of too much safety where I think you you mentioned like the power of truth. Maybe there's too much safety being applied that the story isn't even able to be told or it can't be told in a way that that people could relate with. Is there like A pendulum that we're trying to sit in between, or is that like a not the way to think about it? speaker-0: the it is the way to think about it. And it's a really important question. And it's a nuance that I've been sitting with for a long time now. And I wish I had the perfect answer for you. I don't. Because there's sometimes I sit in this and I'm like, stories can just have these painful stories can have such a negative impact. I wish that we would just put a break on it. And then sometimes I'm like, we know history repeats itself. We have to speak truth to power. We have to be We have to educate our donors. We have to educate our communities on the realities of what's happening. And we know from history how important it is to have record of injustices that are happening. I do not have a perfect answer for you. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, it's hard. speaker-0: Those conversations. No, I'm glad you asked it. These are really important. I'm not and I'm here for it. Cause if anyone tells you they have all the answers, run. Find someone that's going to have a nuance and not have all the answers. So this is what I say, Joseph. What I'd say is it's not a deep conversation for leadership to have an asilo. It's a conversation to have in community. So I think this is where you especially when there's just a really difficult thing rippling through a community. Let's say a community experienced some kind of a natural disaster that was really devastating. And there's so much trauma wrapped in that. I think it's worth having a conversation. There's a rapid response that's really important, but having conversations on We're not gonna share pictures of youth. We're just not. This is where we draw the line. We don't think that youth consent. So we're not gonna tell you stories. And so I do think that there are boundaries that we set. And I think that we can have conversations with our community on where are we gonna draw the line in this particular time in history, in this incident? How much information are we gonna share? How much are we not ready to share because we're still in the thick of it? And these are just value-based conversations that we need to be having in our communities and let them be part of the conversation and what they want to shout from the rooftops and the trauma that they're want to hold a little bit more closely guarded. But this is so important because there is no checklist. There is no checklist. I give all kinds of templates and I teach tools, but at the end of the day, there's just going to be so many circumstances where we just have to make bold, difficult decisions and we're going to mess up sometimes. We're going to do it right sometimes and we're going to mess up sometimes. And then we learn. We learn and hopefully we just keep moving forward on this trauma-informed storytelling and tag raising journey. speaker-1: Yeah, it sounds like have have the conversation, include the right people, include the community, and have grace and flexibility with things are going to change. Like most likely. speaker-0: Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. speaker-1: Amazing. So as as you look to the future of Donor Box and one bearing witness, what do you hope to see in the next five, ten years? This speaker-0: Is not a moment in time. This is a movement. And we are moving towards trauma-informed and ethical storytelling and fundraising, and there is no going back. So my vision will come to fruition. I know it will. I know that we're going to come to a place where our donors are going to be deeply turned off by exploitive messaging, deeply turned off by urgent and manipulative asks, and it's going to backfire in a really big way. What might have worked 20, 30, 40 years ago and work, what it maybe for one-time donations it worked, but maybe if we have data that it worked, it's not going to work in the next 10 to 15 years. So I think that we need to be really thoughtful about moving in this direction. And I do want to know as far as donor box is concerned, I think that we need to be thoughtful about the tools that we are using as well from a fundraising and ethical perspective. So donor box, first of all, we really are very invested in the safety and security of our platform. So when people are donating, that information is kept safe, right? And this is an absolute trauma-informed part of our fundraising practice, is that when people are giving, that they're trusting us with their information. Also, if you become an ongoing donor, whether a monthly, quarterly, or annual donor. Once you've made that decision, you have full autonomy on changing it. You actually receive a whole account where you can go in on your own at any time of day and decide, I know I was giving $25 a month, but I just don't have the capacity right now. So I'm gonna pause it, or I'm gonna move it to quarterly. This kinds of autonomy that we're giving to donors, it matters and they're gonna be paying attention to things like that. When people opt in, and I know every time I give to a politician, Every Democrat in the 10 states are gonna start texting me and emailing me because Act Blue gives my email address to everyone. So that matters too. Are people consenting? If people are not consenting when they're donating for that email address to be given to a whole bunch of like-minded nonprofits and causes. So be thinking, be thinking about the tools that you use. And are they also providing safety and agency to your donors. And so I think that folks are going to start percolating and thinking about these things and thinking a little bit more deeply and slowly about the tools that they choose, about the stories they tell, about the messaging and the ask and how they invite people to support our organizations. And I'm so proud to be part of that movement and I'm seeing it grow even in the past five years. speaker-1: Yeah. Maria, is there anything that maybe we missed or that you want to leave us with before we wrap up here? I feel like we've covered a lot. speaker-0: I wanna leave people with this and feeling a little spicy, it was a little spicy. What I want to say is I share this with a great deal of grace and kindness and empathy because any way that listeners have messed up, I've done it. I assure you, I have done it. I have used manipulative calls to action, I've exploited stories, I have done things without full consent. I've done it all. I've worked internationally. I was in the Peace Corps. I've worked in immigrant populations. I've worked in a lot of places as a white woman. And I look back and I've experienced a lot of grief with how I have done things in a way that has likely caused a lot of harm. And so what I want to say is you have grace. Once you know better, you can do better. And you're not always gonna be doing it a hundred percent. So I hope you have grace for yourself and that you have grace for others on this journey. And just know that you do not have to do this alone, that there are lots of other fundraisers and marketers and nonprofit leaders and executive directors that are also moving forward in trauma informed and ethical storytelling and fundraising. And I'm just again, Joseph, so appreciate this platform to talk about this. And I'm grateful for audiences for listening. speaker-1: Well, I'm grateful for you and for the time that you took to educate me and to educate us in the audience on on what being truly trauma informed is. I think it's a topic that is getting more and more popular and becoming more and more important with the advent of there being a lot of content and media that does seem to be a little bit manipulative and whether that's because people are writing or because AI now is getting even more and more ingrained in a lot of this content creation. Either way, I think it's a topic that that that is really going to differentiate in a positive way organizations that invest time in it because it's important to connect with with potential donors and an audience in your community to drive the amazing work that your organizations are doing. Thank you again so much for this time and we're honored to share the work that you're doing and share the story and people that are listening. We'll be sure to share some of the links. So if you want to learn more and talk to Maria and learn more about donor box, you could do that. So Thank you again and we're wishing you the best with your organization and donut box. speaker-0: Thank you so much, Joseph. It's been an honor to share space with you today.