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Skincare Innovation: A Scientist's Perspective · The Science of Skin

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, this is Ted Lane.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: I am a board certified dermatologist and your host for today's episode of Skin Care Confidential.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: Skincare Confidential is a podcast supporting the Science of Skin Care Summit, which is an annual educational conference revolved around skincare education, occurring November 8th through the 10th, 2024, in beautiful Austin, Texas.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: But today, I'm not in Austin.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in Hamburg, Germany, where I have the distinct pleasure to interview a real legend in skincare.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is Dr.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Ludger Kolbe.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Dr.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Kolbe is the chief scientist in photobiology overseeing sunscreen and pigment lightning development.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Ludge, thank you so much for being with me today.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's my pleasure, Ted.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very honored to be on your webcase.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Wonderful.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, as many of you may not know, Beyersdorf is coming out with a new product that targets pigment lightning.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: And Ludgeer is the person who invented the main ingredient, which is called thiamidol.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it really has a very interesting developmental history.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: But Ludgeer, if we could start at the very beginning, how did you start your career?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: Have you always been with Biersdorf or where did you start?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm almost 30 years now with Biosdorf.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: And uh actually I'm an immunologist by training.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: And when I came from the university, skin was just one of the immuno organs, not the most interesting one.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: But um then when I joined Biosdorf, I joined Biosdorf in Philadelphia, and I had a research uh uh treatment and education with Albert Klickman at that time, uh, which was very impressive to be with him, this giant endomatology.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: And Albert Klidman, as we know, has Kliegman's formula, which uh of course is hydroquinone with a retinoid and a steroid.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and you and I were chatting earlier.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: You think that Dr.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Cliedman would very much like the idea of moving away from hydroquinone.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, but he would also mention uh why did it take you kids 50 years to come up with something better?
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Why and why does he want us to move away, or did he want us to move away from hydroquinone?
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because he was always interested in science, in progress, and uh in hyperpigmentation, it was about time to have some progress, some new developments that really make a difference.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: So he was just saying essentially, look, it's time for something better, and and scientific progress should get us there sooner rather than later.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, we we also know that, and and please correct me, Luguer, if I'm wrong, because you, of course, are a master scientist in this and know everything about hydroquinone, but from my understanding, hydroquinone really is toxic to melanocytes.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's not a tyrosinase inhibitor, which is a very common misconception.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Am I right?
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, if you look at the literature, you will find several dozen papers claiming that uh hydrokinone is the tyrosinase inhibitor.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: And this might be true for the mushroom tyrosinase, which was used for decades to screen for inhibitors, but it's definitely not right for the human tyrosinase, which we use for our testing.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, we're gonna get back to that in a second.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: There's also been uh a poster that was presented a few years back at SID.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was a resident at University of Texas at Galveston who did a claims-based review uh just looking at those patients who had been prescribed hydroquinone versus those patients who didn't.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: That was the only variable that she looked at.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it was interesting because in those patients who were prescribed hydroquinone, there was an increased risk of non-melanoma and melanoma skin cancer.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: Now, one could say those patients who requested hydroquinone perhaps were had more photodamage, and that's why they needed hydroquinone.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: But it certainly can be prescribed from melasma, for example, which may not be related to sun exposure at all.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that there is some data, preliminary data, to show that hydroquinone may be not only toxic to melanocytes, but may be carcinogenic, may be carcinogenic.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: And again, another reason for us to look for alternatives to uh for pigment lightning, which as we know is one of the top concerns for our cosmetic patients.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, now Ludger, you you mentioned mushroom tyrosinase versus human tyrosinase as the model for testing new compounds.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: Can you review that for us?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, even 80 years ago when uh Thomas Fitzpatrick put all the pieces and uh bits together and said in a paper that the tyrosinase is important for the melanin production, the key enzyme.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: He already mentioned the mushroom tyrosinase, which was discovered in 1895, I think.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it's easy to get mushroom tyrosinase, you extract it from mushrooms and you can test on it.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's very, very difficult to get the human tyrosinase, almost impossible until a couple of years ago.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: So everybody was testing on mushroom tyrosinase, but you can imagine there are some differences between mushrooms and humans, and one is in the tyrosinase.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: I know some humans that are much like mushrooms, but we won't go there.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so let's talk about the human tyrosinase model that you developed.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh how could you possibly do this?
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, this has been attempted many, many times.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: How were you the successful one?
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, one of the main differences between the mushroom and the human tyrosinase is the human tyrosinase is attached to the melanosomal membrane.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a membrane protein.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: To get it, to express it in cells and harvest it from culture, you need to cut it from the transmembrane domain.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you do it, you end up with an inactive enzyme, which is of no use, of course.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to find the sweet spot where you can cut it and still have the active enzyme.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: And this was one of the main tasks we had to develop where to cut and how to express it in cells, get it glycosylated, and uh harvest it from the cell culture.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: This was something that took us seven to eight years.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Seven to eight years to really understand how to harvest human tyrosinase to be used in vitro to test compounds.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that gives you an idea of the preliminary research that was done just to start testing compounds to develop something that could compete with hydroquinone.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing, and it really speaks to the the length of time that sometimes science takes.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so is this human terosinase method, is is this out in the public domain or is this unique to Beiersdorf?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we published it uh 2013.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that's when we developed the uh enzyme and published the paper.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there are some other papers that also expressed a human tyrosinase, but to my knowledge, we are the only ones that have a tyrosinase which can be produced up to a level that you can use it for testing of thousands of compounds in a high throughput screening.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and so that that's exactly what you did, right?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: You you developed this new enzyme.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, it's not new, but you developed a methodology for harvesting active human tyrosinase.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then you said, let's go.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to start testing thousands and thousands of different chemicals.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: And and how did you even start with that process?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like tell me the thought process behind which products or which chemicals or molecules we will start with.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this was exactly the question we had to ask.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Where do we want to start?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Where do we start?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: And we we joined forces with a company that uh does it for big pharma.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's a company called Evotech, based here in Hamburg, uh, by the way.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: And from their library, we uh we selected 50,000 compounds based on the chemical diversity.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we wanted to have it as diverse as possible, but at the same time, we wanted to exclude all the uh moieties in the molecules which we know were toxic or not tolerant for uh skincare products.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Probably a good idea.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it turned out to be a good idea.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and so you started testing these thousands and thousands of different molecules, and you hit on one that that seemed to be very promising, right?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, uh we we screened about 50,000, and in the end we had a couple of hits.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, hits means they were positive in the test, but not at all compounds you want to have in in skincare products.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: They were instable and uh were very colourful, or some data were not reproducible.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: So there was a lot of work to be done.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: And one of these screening hits was especially uh interesting to us because it contained an resosinol motif, which we already knew was an inhibitor of tyrosinase.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: But the other parts of the molecule they were new, but still not the compound for the products, so we had to uh synthesize derivatives of this compound, more than 700 derivatives, to find the one that is stable, works in the tyrosinase, and also is compatible with topical products.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Let me make sure I have this right.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't I didn't realize this.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: So you you screened 50,000 products, you found a few, two of which were completely unstable or had a color that were that would not be advisable to use in skincare, but you found this one with the resource and all motif, which you knew uh had anti-terosinase and tempition, but there were other aspects to that molecule which otherwise made it not a great candidate.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so you went about then making a derivative of this in order to produce the final compound that met all of your needs for a skincare product pigment lightener.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is that correct?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is correct.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: It has to be have much more features than just inhibition of tyrosinase.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: It has to be non-toxic and uh soluble.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: This is a big request which uh is hard to achieve in this uh regard.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: We had a lot of compounds which were nice inhibitors, but not at all soluble in cosmetic formulations.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so so it took seven to eight years to develop the human tyrosinase um enzyme to stay stability of that.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: How long did it take for for both the testing of the 50,000 compounds and then the development of thiamidol?
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: How what's the time span there?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh, it's about five years to have the thiamidol in our hands, but at that time we did not really know is this really the final molecule.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: So we had to test it uh in in safety essays, and in the end, we wanted to see does it perform on human skin?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And this until the launch of the first product, it was another 10 years.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: So so really we're talking about a 17-year development cycle.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh look at my hair.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I I had the color of my hair was about your time, uh, your color when I started with this work.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, it's a lot of time.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and I think this is exactly why we need to highlight the science behind skincare, because people don't realize, I mean, that's a development cycle for a pharmaceutical, for new, a novel pharmaceutical compound, right?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: It it can take 17, 15 to 20 years, is what we usually think about, and millions and millions of dollars.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so we are talking about a pharmaceutical-like cycle, similar development process, I would say, you know, but you also have to consider how it works within the cosmetics industry.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it has to come up feel good.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, some of these pharmaceutical companies, they don't care how the product feels, they they don't care the color of the product, they just want the active and they want to get to their um their phase ones, right?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: You actually have to take into consideration the elegance, the feel, the dry-off, all of that as well.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it adds another layer of complexity to what you're doing.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a drug, you take it because you need it.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Here, our products, people want it.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: So we need to make it attractive for them.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: And uh this is hard work, I can tell you.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: So so when people see, you know, this is just really hitting me, right?
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: This is this is kind of revelatory for me.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: When when people see a skincare product and it talks about a brand new ingredient, right?
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of sales and marketing and and you know, it's there, you know, pigment lightener with thyamidol.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that people really realize the amount of time and and expense required just to get to that one new product, that one new ingredient.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: But this is really highlighting that.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and thank you for for um accepting my invitation to be on this podcast, Ludgar.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is something that people really haven't thought about at all.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: But we've we're back to thiamodon now.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: In vitro, you've done some testing.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if we go through the life cycle, you've you've looked at it in petri dishes, you've looked at it in in different ways and and shown that it is in fact a potent taros human tyrosinase inhibitor.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then you did something interesting, which a lot of scientists do.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: You tested it on yourself, didn't you?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, of course.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, uh, we all have two square meters of skin, so it's easy to test on your own skin.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, everybody knows what his or her skin looks like, but who knows what the liver looked like?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what my liver looks like.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, but I can test on my skin.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I had a spot uh where I really applied it.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and actually I tested my skin it on my skin for more than a year, and uh it works.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, now there's a famous picture, at least within Beyersdorf, there's a famous picture of uh it's a lentigo.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's on your arm, right?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe there's two lentico, I can't remember, but there's a lentico, and you showed you know month-to-month photos, and you see it lightning and lightning and lightning, um, which is it's just great.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: I love that story.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so now we have um Thamadol, and you kind of handed it off to the clinical testing team, and they performed multiple different trials on human subjects.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: And can you just do a review for us in terms of what they found?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_00: When you look at hyperpigmentary disorders, be it uh something in the face like melasma or post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation, uh, lentige lentigenous, and so on.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: When it's based on melanin, it works because it's a tyrosinase inhibitor, and when there's irregular um production of uh melanin, it would work.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it was it's very interesting to see that uh it works on the darker spots better than on the surrounding skin because there's more melanin produced, so you can inhibit better.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's uh very interesting to see because I had some concern it might just lighten everything up, and you have uh then uh a little bit lighter spot on a lighter background, but that's not like a target, which is what hydroquinone does, right?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: It lightens everything, it's it's kind of uh a carpet bombing the entire melanin field there because it's toxic to melanocytes.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: But this, what you're if if I understand correctly, again, the idea is that this really targets the hyperpigmentation because that's where the tirosinase activity is is highest.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so it tends to target the highest activity.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: And uh because it's so specific, you can adjust it by uh using the right concentration to get the right efficacy.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's impossible with hydrokinone, it's toxic, so you hit everything, but you cannot adjust it uh correctly.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: I see what you're saying.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: So based on the amount, the concentration is concentration equal, there must be a dose response curve at some point, but concentration equals tarosinase inhibition.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you're just trying to inhibit the tarosinase involved with the hyperpigmentation, you can target it, you can tune it to that and allow the the normal activity torosinase to be relatively unscathed or untouched.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: We did a study in in South Africa, and they were very concerned about the background of their skin.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: It was an acne PIH study, and we could show that the spots got lighter, but the background was totally untouched, which was a great study.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so essentially this is safe for hyperpigmentation in all skin types.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we have results now on all skin types.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's safe and effective in all skin types.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: And you have a study to show, therefore, that it's safe for post-inflammatory hyperpigmentation, which is what you just mentioned.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then do we have a study on melasma?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, we already this was one of the first studies.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: We published it in the Journal of Investigative Dermatology, uh, which it was a very interesting study to see that uh we got during the entire year.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: It took us a year to complete the study because we wanted to have the right subjects there, and we could see that it works all year round.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: All year round.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: And tell me, Ludger, in these studies, you paired it with the sunscreen, right?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um in some of the studies we uh we told them do not uh change your sun protection uh habits because we won't didn't want to see in the uh sunscreen effect.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: In other studies we uh we had the control group with our moisturizer the same uh sunscreen, the same with the thiamidol.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: There we could see the sunscreen effect and the on-top uh effect of thyamidol, which was very interesting to see.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's uh first of all, I have to commend you.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's brave, right?
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: First of to do a uh a pigment lightening study where you don't take control of the sun protection habits is is a brave thing to do in order to achieve statistical significance when you really have no idea what the subjects are doing uh on a day-to-day basis.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_01: They could be not applying sunscreen at all uh if you don't take control of it in the protocol.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that that was brave, but you did achieve statistical significance in that study, right?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yeah.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's the JID study, yeah.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: That's the JID study.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: Well, then I would imagine if you achieve statistical significance in that one, then the one where you did control the sunscreen, you achieved even greater statistical significance.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and it was interesting to see when we stopped.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: We also wanted to see the reversibility.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and when we stopped the study and uh checked for the uh uh skin condition three months later, we could see it came back to the effect of the sunscreen alone.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: So there's an reversibility as long as you use the inhibitor, it works.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: If you stop using it over time, it comes back to normal.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: This is something we saw already in vitro, but here also in vivo in a study.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, which brings up a good point, right?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: If people are going to be using this day after day, that one of the questions that arises is always safety.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in your toxicity studies and your safety studies, did would anything pop up that that would make us be careful for the duration of use of this product or the body surface area of use of this product?
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything that we should be careful of?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: You can use it year-round without any limitations.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: This is because it's so specific, not not toxic to the melanocytes.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: And uh yeah, we have body products, we have uh face products.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um I guess it would not make uh sense to cover your entire body with it.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Just the spots, uh spotty areas, but uh yeah, it's safe in use.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: So so maximum use studies, PKPD studies, uh inactive metabolites, active metabolites.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing that we really need to worry about with this.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: We also look for for molds which we didn't want to change.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh great.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: And uh they yeah, and in a three-month study, we had dermatologists look uh at the molds every four weeks, and they could not see any change.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: They were always saying that if there would be a change in the mole, we could diagnose it.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: There's no interference with diagnosis, which was very important for us because we did not want to interfere with that.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, absolutely, I completely understand that.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And as as a you know, dermatologist, the last thing we need is for moles to start changing because of a a topical that we're applying, which could inhibit our our um ability to really diagnose a dysplastic moles.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I appreciate that.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that you said that.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's very important as well.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, really, this this molecule then, this thiamidol, it it really is kind of uh a very exciting development for pigment lightening.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's safe, you can use it in all areas.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's been proven to work on melasma, it's been proven to work on PIH, it's been proven to work in all different um skin types.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you you should be pairing this with a sunscreen, right?
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: Anybody that is trying to lighten their pigment of any site type should be pairing it with the sunscreen.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what would you recommend in terms of, well, you know, that the uh filters that are available outside of the US are very different than the filters in the US.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: But given that you're the chief scientist for photobiology, let's just touch on that quickly.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: What would you recommend as kind of the optimal sunscreen to be paired with a thiamidol containing product?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course we would recommend to use the highest possible.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it's over here in it's uh SPF 50 plus, which means you have to measure a 60.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: So the highest protection.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: I know some would love to have only a 30, but uh I would recommend to have the highest uh protection you can get.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we have some serums with thiamidol, so uh it does not have to be in the same product, but for sure you should have an uh sunscreen on top of the product with thiamidol.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so so so thiamidol goes on first, sunscreen afterwards, although there is a product, I believe, that has thiamidol and a sunscreen in the same product.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, uh, we have a daycare where it is combined, of course.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and is that is the sunscreen um this the sunscreen filters that are in that product are they are they only chemical or are they also physical?
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: It depends on the products.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we have all kinds of uh combinations over here.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's different in the US, I know.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: You're limited in the use of uh different sunscreen molecules, right?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but still it's possible to have an effective sunscreen.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, okay.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: And and just as a final note, do you recommend physical blockers or do you think chemical blockers are are are just as good?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't think it's correct to discriminate between physical and and uh chemical.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: In the end, those are all chemicals, which is not bad.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and it's more the particulate worth of the soluble uh molecules property.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: And uh my assumption is or my experience is uh you need a good combination and you need a good filter uh property, and it doesn't matter if it's achieved with the minerals or the so-called organic filters.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, thank you for that.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: So it's essentially a combination, but formulation is key, and trust the company that's making them.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Look, Garrett, listen, this has been wonderful.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: I so appreciate your time.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and and uh of course, just taking us through the whole history of this molecule, which has been so interesting.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we're excited to get this in the United States.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's not available yet, but uh I'm sure it's coming soon.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and otherwise, you know, hopefully, you know, at your next invention, which I'm sure you're working on already, we can sit down again and talk about uh how you're gonna make me look 25 again.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: I will give you a call for sure.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: All right, great.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you, everybody.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: This has been uh Lugger Kolbe.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: He is the chief scientist in photobiology overseeing sunscreen and pigment lightning development here at Beersdorf in Hamburg, Germany.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: I am Dr.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: Ted Lane, and thank you for listening to this episode of Skincare Confidential.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to please subscribe to the podcast.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Refer us to your friends as well.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much, Dr.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Kolbe.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: My pleasure.