Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK Assassination - Ep. 276 - Symphony of Destruction W/ Carmine Savastano

Transcript

JFK Assassination - Ep. 276 - Symphony of Destruction W/ Carmine Savastano · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:01
  There is movie and joy Joe Me and Joey and Joby Joby and drama podcast
• 0:32
  in them and you we go and here we go. That's right, people,
• 0:47
  what's up? This is episode number two hundred and seventy six, The
• 0:51
  Symphony of Destruction, and today we have a very special guest. We're very
• 0:56
  honored to have him live here on the Lone Guming Podcast. Uh an old
• 1:00
  friend of mine, a new friend of Joe's, and a noted author and
• 1:04
  proprietor of tpac dot com that stands for two Princes and a King. Carmi
• 1:11
  and Sabastano comes back to the show. What's up, buddy? Not much?
• 1:15
  How you guys doing. It's good to be back. Yes, sir,
• 1:18
  you are looking freaking handsome, if I do say so myself. I
• 1:25
  was telling Carmi before we started. I was like, man, you look
• 1:26
  like my twin brother. Now that's awesome. See, Joe, you need
• 1:32
  to start going gray a little bit and grow grow big nasty beard. I
• 1:36
  thought you were going to say go bald or just shave my head. Not
• 1:42
  I'm bald because I'm going gray. I mean, there's I could I could
• 1:46
  have a pretty mean widow's peak going here with hair? Yeah? Really,
• 1:52
  who cares so much easier? I mean the guys that are really trying to
• 1:57
  style and look you know young when here you know, it's whatever your middle
• 2:00
  aged shave your head. Oh, Perry RUSSI over Perry Russo over here.
• 2:05
  Yeah, every every night for being late because I have to get ready.
• 2:10
  You gotta take a shower before we start, dude, nobody can smell you
• 2:14
  through to the screen, you know. But uh, where about the hair?
• 2:20
  Rop where about the hair? I know? I know, hey,
• 2:23
  now as zero must I'll sudden the original producers if you got it flowing it?
• 2:27
  But there you go, look good? To look good? You want
• 2:30
  to keep it short exactly, so Carline, everybody here should know who the
• 2:36
  hell you are if they've been listening to the show for a long time.
• 2:38
  But for the newer viewers that we have here on YouTube, this is a
• 2:42
  whole new format for us and the Longoman podcast. So please just just introduce
• 2:46
  yourself to the to the viewers out there and let them know what you got
• 2:51
  going on. Uh well, my name is Carmin Sevastano. If you look
• 2:55
  at some of the posts a k A c A a Astana, Just to
• 3:00
  make it shorter for descriptions and some online pages. But I have been doing
• 3:09
  historical research and for over a decade and have been involved in the JFK community
• 3:17
  a little bit roughly about that amount of time. I have a background of
• 3:24
  in literature and history, and I've always been interested in h intelligence and government
• 3:31
  operations. But once I became more involved in doing research and uh, you
• 3:39
  know, associating with historians and experts in certain fields like you know Larry Hancock
• 3:46
  and Cherry Feaster, and you know John Newman and others, and Bill Simpitch,
• 3:52
  Rex Bradford being able to help contribute to the Mary Farrell Foundations databases,
• 3:57
  and and I've conducted some research. I think over time, you know,
• 4:02
  people are more than free to disagree, but that has perhaps helped push things
• 4:08
  forward as far as for instance, some people might know the name Thomas Cassison,
• 4:15
  and Cassison is kind of an infamous misname because he was the CIA official
• 4:20
  that discussed using Lee Harvey Oswald. I was in Minsk, which is something
• 4:25
  that was always denied by the Warrant Commission, always denied by the agency.
• 4:28
  They would never use somebody like Oswald, which allow me to tell you after
• 4:31
  looking at hundreds of thousands of pages of the documents. They'd use much worse
• 4:35
  than Oswald than have used much worse than osl was a twenty four year old,
• 4:41
  misguided fool. They've used way worse than that. But I was able
• 4:46
  to actually locate this person, identify them as Jacques Richardson and he's alive and
• 4:51
  I think, well, still in France, and that's you know that I
• 4:59
  was able to. I've done some presentations at JFK Lancer. One of the
• 5:02
  things I'm proud of is I was able to actually locate certain people on the
• 5:05
  day of to try to clear the table. Like I think, you know,
• 5:10
  as I and Rob have discussed in the past, a lot of people
• 5:13
  want to add to the story. They don't want to take away. I'm
• 5:18
  one of the i'd say few who wants to take away. I want to
• 5:25
  remove the myths out of our way. I want to take the bad leads
• 5:30
  and toss them aside, improve with evidence that they don't exist, so that
• 5:32
  we actually start to have a list of names we can deal with. HI.
• 5:39
  How you doing? Everybody's saying IY, And hopefully you know once we're
• 5:45
  done, which you know, we'll probably be passing the reins up. Eventually
• 5:48
  one day robed, Oh, no, we got some big dogs watching this.
• 5:51
  Man. Doug Campbell's in the house. What's up, Doug Dog?
• 5:57
  And our music producer Roger is in the house. Us. Hello, Roger.
• 6:00
  That's a great we got. We got Mike, we got Claude Johnny
• 6:08
  I like the very good Yes you take a mortal man. Hey. You
• 6:15
  know I try to come up with catchy titles for the shows, you know,
• 6:19
  yeah, I've always tried to do that, And that just popped in
• 6:23
  my brain and I was like, what's that song? I know it's making
• 6:27
  death and finally popped in there. I was like, ah, yeah,
• 6:30
  I do man too much weed back in the day. But you know,
• 6:33
  here we are. But yeah, just to summ up, yeah, I
• 6:39
  people can check out my work. My references will be in the notes,
• 6:43
  and Rob already told you about teapot dot com. But my whole contribution and
• 6:48
  what I wanted to do going forward, as I have in the past,
• 6:51
  is just help us get rid of some of the bad leads so that Joe
• 6:55
  and Rob and all the other people out there doing research are not having to
• 6:59
  waste their time looking into every new thing that someone presents or a recycled,
• 7:05
  hashed old version of which we see. As you know, Rob was telling
• 7:10
  me about earlier new quote unquote documentaries that are released that just repeat nineteen eighties
• 7:16
  nineteen nineties information. That's very true, Carmine, And to your point.
• 7:24
  When I first, as you know, I started out as a listener,
• 7:28
  then started doing my own primary resources research say that three times fast. I
• 7:38
  was really impressed with like the straight up document nobs and I absolutely just took
• 7:49
  it from there and started doing my own research and it was a great and
• 7:55
  then we found some very interesting documents on what we're going to talk about today,
• 8:00
  instruction of documents, maybe some Martin stuff, And yeah, you are
• 8:05
  to my point, I almost lost my train of thought. I would have
• 8:11
  probably lost ten years of JFKA research reading certain people's books. But because of
• 8:20
  guests like you and Larry Hancock and Bill Sempitch and other really serious researchers,
• 8:26
  it saved me probably three decades of going waiting through the BS. Well,
• 8:31
  I'm happy to help and I'm happy with you join the community, because I
• 8:37
  mean that's that that's my goal. I'm hoping to save people time. And
• 8:39
  then we get new informed people in the community, and over time hopefully more
• 8:43
  and more people become informed and don't have to waste time arguing over nonsense.
• 8:50
  Yeah, yeah, James files r Judie Baker or you know, or yeah.
• 9:01
  And it's funny because when we talked last week on the Ocelli Effect,
• 9:07
  Chuck asked me about my thoughts about Pumley. I was like, honestly,
• 9:11
  I've never looked into him. It was also about Rosselli, which who obviously
• 9:16
  wasn't in Dallas, but like someone like Tosh Pumley, like, I never
• 9:20
  wasted my time like searching a document of him because people I know and trust
• 9:28
  have said it's horseship. Yeah, Like I mean to me, is the
• 9:33
  real thing is that we can you know, I've listened to you know some
• 9:35
  of your past shows. You provide some documents that's important. That really to
• 9:39
  me that there's a quality of research that is required if we're actually going to
• 9:46
  make some real progress, and I think we have. I think people didn't
• 9:48
  think much progress would happen after the nineties two thousands, but some real big
• 9:52
  leaps have happened. Then, you know, more releases, more possibilities,
• 9:58
  exactly, exactly. Thank you, Mike for the supersticker. We appreciate it
• 10:03
  greatly, sir, thank you. And yeah, yes, David shooters in
• 10:09
  the storm drain that's from the X Files. Is I believe the first time
• 10:13
  I saw that, Yeah, shooting from the limo behind the driver turning and
• 10:16
  shooting. Yeah, Jackie as well. Yeah, oh, you gotta love
• 10:22
  it. It's it's gotta be thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of various myths
• 10:28
  exist. And that's why you know, we you know, had Rob on
• 10:33
  before Hope to get him back, and had Joe on for the Myth series,
• 10:35
  because I mean, we've knocked down hundreds of myths and they're still so
• 10:43
  many more. They're like zombies rising out of the graveyard, you know,
• 10:48
  every every two years. Yeah, they just won't die. It gets clicks,
• 10:56
  that's the problem. Yeah, click bait, But you're not going to
• 11:01
  find a clickbait here. We try to stick to the documents as much as
• 11:05
  possible here people. So Carmelo, let's get right into what you found out
• 11:09
  about some destruction of documents. Okay, So last year I came across the
• 11:18
  document that verifies the largest yet documentary eradication by officials regarding the JFK case.
• 11:26
  Now I say yet, because there could be a still undiscovered larger one.
• 11:31
  Ye, this one. Anything's possible, it could be. This is in
• 11:35
  the tens two hundreds of thousands of files, this one. That's a lot
• 11:39
  of papers. Yeah, it's pretty significant. It's bigger than the CIA ones
• 11:43
  that have been discovered thus far bigger than the FBI ones. Though, as
• 11:48
  we will learn from Joe later, not definitely the latest document destruction. It's
• 11:54
  still ongoing. But this, I would think, especially in the time period,
• 11:58
  is what anyway, So because I think what people need to remember is
• 12:05
  the document destruction happened before the HSCA. The document I found basically was a
• 12:11
  response to the HSCA from the Defense Intelligence Agency and it was a query the
• 12:20
  DIA for background was created during the Kennedy administration by Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara
• 12:26
  to administrate the collection of military intelligence and to retainer for the DoD. So
• 12:33
  in the document I mentioned, the HC requested all their files retaining to the
• 12:35
  Kennedy assassination held by the DIA. Its response stated the DEA quote had destroyed
• 12:43
  all of its files which might be related to the assassination and that therefore had
• 12:48
  nothing to offer. Now, even the response was classified under an NSA agreement
• 12:56
  with the HCA, so the AHACA didn't even tell people they had destroyed it.
• 13:03
  And I think it would have made them look like fools because they wouldn't
• 13:05
  have been able to access all that material, and they had so brazenly basically
• 13:09
  told them, you know, as the British say, get stuffed, yes,
• 13:18
  so, among other things. So this notable response was given, so
• 13:30
  investigators were unable to find out why the destruction had occurred and discussed it publicly.
• 13:35
  As I said, this attack was unknown and among it within the millions
• 13:41
  of pages of the JFK collection, So we cannot prove this occurred. And
• 13:46
  I delved further to find additional specifics that I cover in a series Rob's going
• 13:52
  to link in the notes, and I can't state it was until at least
• 13:56
  nineteen seventy three that military officials were obliterating evidence related to Lee Harvey Oswald,
• 14:01
  thus the jeff K case. And they did so despite the historical importance of
• 14:05
  the material. And they're on filing requirements, which is interesting because I find
• 14:09
  out what those were, and they weren't supposed to destroy those files. They
• 14:15
  because there was a derogatory information on Oswald, they were supposed to retain.
• 14:18
  But as we know, so, yeah, it did happen. Yeah,
• 14:24
  So a real quick carman. There's a question, and it's a common question
• 14:28
  you do hear about these documents. It just jumped up. Why would the
• 14:35
  government create files that linked them to the assassination? To begin with? Well,
• 14:41
  I don't think that they would do it intentionally. But if a let's
• 14:50
  say, for instance, you have an operation going on, most likely a
• 14:54
  compartmentalized operation, you someone says something off. Let's say a warrant officer in
• 15:03
  Indonesia says that he thinks Kennedy should get killed sometime. They don't want that
• 15:11
  to be put into the public files. So that would be something. Basically,
• 15:16
  any mention of derogatory things about the president, which there were many,
• 15:22
  is a possible suspect. Is a theoretical link to military intelligence, is a
• 15:26
  theoretical link to the people in the chain of command. So and those are
• 15:31
  going to occur, you can't. The thing is is they're not intentionally creating
• 15:35
  I don't think that they would draw out their plans and that's no to the
• 15:39
  record. And then you know, doing an internal investigation. You know,
• 15:45
  they're asking questions, they're they're at, you know, saying, hey,
• 15:48
  JM Wave, what the hell you got going on down there? Do you
• 15:52
  know anything about this? And you know they're at they're tasked to look into
• 15:56
  things and report back. And so these documents get created, not necessarily linking
• 16:03
  them to the assassination, but they are assassination related documents, you know what
• 16:07
  I mean. They're not gonna have documents and say, oh, yeah,
• 16:11
  a couple of our it was a couple of our guys, you know.
• 16:15
  And I think what more to what the audience member was saying that if you
• 16:22
  look at they didn't need to create those documents, because if you look at
• 16:27
  the Castro plots, or you look at the varying assassinations of foreign leaders that
• 16:34
  our intelligence community conducted and our military intelligence community conducted, they didn't need to
• 16:41
  write it all in and submit it to the record. Those plans, right
• 16:45
  there, can be overlaid at times different events throughout history. I mean,
• 16:49
  and it's still happening today. I mean, you know, I think it
• 16:52
  was two or three weeks ago they arrested two Hell's Angels bikers who were linked
• 16:59
  to a rainy intelligence sent to the US to kill dissidents. It's still going
• 17:03
  on. The exact same thing the KGB was doing in the sixties is being
• 17:07
  done by other intelligence groups now, thanks drey So. But I think that's
• 17:14
  what would happen, and over time it would just be so many documents they
• 17:21
  you know, every okay, so every derogatory comment a military person made about
• 17:25
  Kennedy, which is I would imagine there's quite a few, every comment every
• 17:29
  officer ever made, anything anybody ever put to paper or heard or was reported
• 17:33
  by an FBI informant. All that stuff, over time just builds up.
• 17:37
  You can't destroy it fast enough. That's the whole funny thing about the destruction
• 17:41
  is that by doing it, they've only peaked our interest more and focused us
• 17:45
  on certain areas. Oh and another thing I want to do. I have
• 17:49
  one more update. And I didn't get it. It didn't happen until the
• 17:52
  day after we were on the Ocelli effect last week. So I wanted to
• 18:00
  give the d I a a chance to respond, and somebody, well,
• 18:10
  somebody told me, good now you got to file with them too, Sea
• 18:12
  You're doing great, So I sent I sent in November of last year,
• 18:22
  by the way, because I thought it was fitting, I wrote a letter
• 18:27
  to the Inspector General's Office of the Defense Intelligence Agency and asked them if it
• 18:36
  was their position that they destroyed all their JFK holdings, despite you know,
• 18:42
  their own requirements, despite the historical importance of them. And I was given
• 18:48
  a quote response. I sent the letter certified mail because I wanted to obtain
• 18:55
  a signature to at least an official. I wanted a shild the sign for
• 19:00
  it so I could get a name. But the item, Yeah, but
• 19:07
  it has no signature. They didn't even get me the signature they're supposed to
• 19:11
  that I paid for. But the letter sent there's a red stamp that it
• 19:18
  was screened and received by the Pentagon November thirtieth, twenty twenty three, so
• 19:25
  maybe a week or about a week after I sent it it got there.
• 19:30
  The Pentagon screened it. It was open, it was slit open, seemingly
• 19:34
  read and then replaced and taped closed. Bad tape. Job. Like I
• 19:41
  thought they could you know, this was a you could have esteemed it.
• 19:45
  I would have never known. They just don't care anymore. Yeah, exactly,
• 19:52
  God so, But and I'm going to eventually when I do another.
• 19:56
  When I discussed the issue again turned an article, I'm going to Yeah,
• 20:00
  well, what's funny is it has returned to sender on the front, but
• 20:04
  that's that's the post office. But on the back here, actually, i'm
• 20:07
  gonna take a photo. Mike wants me to, uh when we talk about
• 20:11
  it again. This is the actual envelope and has returned to sender. That's
• 20:15
  but that's the USPS. The interesting part is the red stamp and it's dated
• 20:22
  November thirtieth, twenty three at Pentagon, screamed, and it's certainly been opened,
• 20:29
  marked with an X on the front. Yeah, I could see the
• 20:32
  tape and sent back, so they got my letter. I sent it.
• 20:38
  I can prove I sent it. Well. Props for for actually having the
• 20:45
  kohonas to send a letter to the Inspector General, because that is bold and
• 20:52
  I respect that a lot as I appreciate it. Yeah, I would have
• 20:56
  brought out I didn't get it back until after the show, Otherwise I would
• 21:00
  have definitely dimensioned it on the show. But so you guys got the scoop
• 21:04
  on that one. Yeah, I didn't. I honestly didn't think I get
• 21:07
  it back at all. I thought that they would just you know, shred
• 21:11
  it and say I never got it, screwed this guy. Yeah, yeah,
• 21:15
  there you go, folks breaking news on the Long Len podcast. So
• 21:21
  we've asked them and they've given the response, yeah, go screw Yeah pretty
• 21:26
  much. Well they know, I mean, what are they really going to
• 21:29
  do? Really, all they could have wrote was like one letter yes,
• 21:33
  yes, yes, that was our position. But they don't want to because
• 21:38
  you know, that's a very indefensible position to be in. Yeah, they're
• 21:45
  not being hold accountable for that law in any way, shape or form,
• 21:51
  so it matters very little to them. But yeah, they can't say they
• 21:56
  weren't given a chance. I give them every opportunity to clarify if they wanted
• 22:02
  to. Scott said, get DNA from the tape job fingerprints maybe, Yeah,
• 22:12
  it sticks the head adhesive, We'll find out who who handled that damn
• 22:17
  thing. If it kills us, well, I would hope at least,
• 22:22
  if not the Inspector General his secretary. Yeah, at least very I hope
• 22:27
  it got to the office and at least and obviously was read. Otherwise,
• 22:33
  why would you tape job back up and slip the whole thing open or the
• 22:36
  guy that gets coffee and donuts. I mean somebody, yeah, somebody,
• 22:41
  did you explain any of your like, uh like credentials and or you know,
• 22:47
  author and you know, oh okay, yeah, yeah, I'm yeah,
• 22:51
  I've written that matters. But no, in the letter to the d
• 22:55
  I A. I think he's saying, oh oh yeah, yeah, no,
• 22:56
  no, I offered who I was, and I just had, you
• 23:00
  know, questions about the historical historical research. I said, this is for
• 23:03
  historical research, and I just I find it so it's you know, annoying,
• 23:11
  but hilarious that they still care that. I mean, at this point,
• 23:18
  everyone who could possibly have been prosecuted is probably gone most likely or did
• 23:25
  it's not yeah, and no one that is in a position of power today
• 23:29
  likely had anything to do with it, So they have really I mean,
• 23:32
  there might be a couple, but for the most part they're all too young,
• 23:36
  so they really have no vested interest in keeping it. I think is
• 23:40
  talking about yeah yeah. I think at this point they just are are content
• 23:45
  to let the public think whatever they want to think and not answer, because
• 23:48
  I would contend they probably don't know. I think that's what scares some officials,
• 23:52
  is they don't know either. They probably that maybe we'll never know.
• 23:56
  And even with all the destroyed document about destroying the docue, Yeah, yeah,
• 24:02
  think about that that in their document destruction they might have actually met,
• 24:06
  you know, destroyed their own chances of finding out who did. Yeah,
• 24:08
  there's your rabbit hole. Alice's a mirror. So so yeah, now I
• 24:17
  think that kind of Yeah, that was certainly something of interest that I came
• 24:25
  across last year. And then I also just wanted to quickly add before you
• 24:30
  guys just wanted to go into the Martin stuff. I also have a series
• 24:33
  that I threw in for the Notes that talks about defectors and moles and basically
• 24:41
  the Central Intelligence Agency and the inner workings of the CIA, a portion of
• 24:45
  the CIA during the fifties and sixties moving into the seventies, about a mole
• 24:51
  hunt that actually spread to five countries and was fairly extensive, all based largely
• 24:56
  upon the claims of one defector, one KGB defector named anatotally Galatzen. Well
• 25:03
  Popov was the first one. Yeah, Popov was the was the original defector
• 25:07
  that talked about Russia using dozen Infermatzia. They call it it disinformation campaigns.
• 25:14
  So but he was in too as well. Yeah, he was later killed
• 25:18
  indeed. Yeah, Well there was a few of them too, and some
• 25:22
  The unfortunate thing is is that the famous phrase that everyone that you'll see used
• 25:26
  a lot in the JFK case and intelligence is Angleton said there. James Angleton,
• 25:30
  who was the counterintelligence chief of the CIA from the fifties until the seventies,
• 25:36
  said wilderness of mirrors. And this wilderness of mirrors is in some ways
• 25:42
  an apt statement because in the JFK case, in larger intelligence and counterintelligence,
• 25:48
  there's a lot of unknowns. What I in my series I called the intelligence
• 25:52
  abyss is what I look at it as, and that abyss is all the
• 25:57
  unknowns that's around all of these things. And there's sometimes more unknowns than known
• 26:06
  quantities in various circumstances. So because a lot of it wasn't even put down
• 26:11
  on paper back then, you know, they were specifically told, you know,
• 26:15
  like Harvey was specifically tell his people do not put anything on paper,
• 26:18
  even though he made the QJ Win lists right assassination list notes that later came
• 26:25
  out and exposed the rifle and stuff. Yeah, whatever happened, Whatever happened,
• 26:30
  to that internal jam wave report after the assassination, right likes destruction of
• 26:37
  files? Right that? Oh yeah, or just when the one of the
• 26:42
  things that I talk about in that series. And I think that, you
• 26:47
  know, most people don't know about the way the CIA conducteds investigation in the
• 26:52
  beginning. Not everyone, of course, but some of the CIA leadership did
• 26:57
  to if only exonerate the cells, wanted to cooperate with the Commission, wanted
• 27:03
  to delve into this and just if it was one of the people, they
• 27:07
  were going to, you know, acts any connection with them and then expose
• 27:10
  them, burn them, just to get rid of them. So they wanted
• 27:14
  to work with the Commission, and they put John Whitten in charge of the
• 27:17
  investigation. Originally, unfortunately Angleton and c I. SIGG took it from him,
• 27:25
  and because they were so obsessed with moles and trying to find out if
• 27:30
  there were traders in their ranks, they didn't do the sort of investigation required
• 27:33
  That compromised the CIA's investigation. And it's not to say that they didn't want
• 27:37
  certain things hid, and certainly they did. But there's a lot of like
• 27:41
  you said before, Joe, there's a lot of competing factions in these groups.
• 27:47
  So it's not just as if they're you know, one whole entity acting
• 27:51
  together. This is a lot of different people with a lot of politics and
• 27:53
  a lot of power bases and compartmentalizations, struggles over yeah, struggles and you
• 28:00
  know, people hating each other. So that doesn't make for a you know,
• 28:07
  good group to conduct an assassination. You have to have just or cohesive
• 28:11
  narrative of an agency's intelligence operations so well. And I think that's the big
• 28:17
  thing about what I try to point out in the series is, and I
• 28:19
  think has been overlooked by some of the people who have looked into it before,
• 28:23
  is that it doesn't require a mole to do all the damage of one.
• 28:27
  Just that anatoty Gallatson claimed there was a mole set into motion. So
• 28:33
  many things sidelined over fifty careers, having hundreds of age and suspect and Angleton
• 28:40
  was already over the paranoid because he had been betrayed by his friend Kim Philby,
• 28:42
  who turned out to be one of the Cambridge five. So it was
• 28:47
  ripe. It was right. It couldn't have been. The Russians couldn't have
• 28:49
  picked a better person than Gallatson to come over here at that time, which
• 28:53
  makes me think. You know, some people want to say that either Gallotson
• 28:59
  was the plan or Nosenko was the plant, or that you know, both
• 29:03
  are guilty or both are in I think both can be legitimate defectors and still
• 29:08
  be wrong and still have lied, because if you look, defectors lie,
• 29:12
  that's just part of the process. They want to make themselves more impressive than
• 29:18
  they actually are so that we'll give them more money, We'll relocate them to
• 29:21
  a better lodgings, will take care of their families. And if they're not
• 29:25
  we're not impressed by them, why do we have any reason to retain them?
• 29:30
  Yeah, keep me in a black site for six months, four years,
• 29:36
  it's all the game. They all lie totally with all that you know
• 29:41
  between the CAMPII and other places that kept in Senko almost four years wow.
• 29:45
  And it was all based on Gallatson. I mean they and they they the
• 29:48
  CIA. If you look in the files, they actually made his tests fail,
• 29:55
  Like he took polygraph tests and passed, but they told him he failed
• 29:57
  every time no matter what because the to break him, because he had to
• 30:00
  be you know, a fake defector according to them, And you know,
• 30:07
  like we talked about a little bit off the air. A lot of people
• 30:08
  have claimed that they have the answer, but unless it's clearly shown in the
• 30:15
  evidence, and I mean, you know, something indicative of their betrayal,
• 30:22
  some communication with the Russian operative, some you know, some informant that saw
• 30:27
  them with the Russians, or you know, whatever Soviet entity they're dealing with.
• 30:33
  Yeah, some tangible, Yeah, you know, it's got to be
• 30:34
  tangible if you want to say that you have answered the question, no matter
• 30:37
  what it is, whether it's a JFK case or anything else. Absolutely definitely,
• 30:47
  Joe, you want to go into what we found with the the what
• 30:49
  the FBI was doing in the nineties, sure, well, I'll give a
• 30:55
  little backstory to this. And essentially, as we as many of our listeners,
• 31:03
  if not all, I now know, we thick of hearing the name.
• 31:07
  But we're going to bring it up again. Well that's kind of the
• 31:10
  point, Rob. It keeps coming up, and that's why we presented on
• 31:14
  it. And one of the Martins we came up with was a lady named
• 31:22
  Joan Martin, which is very interesting, and she was part of the JFK
• 31:29
  Task Force which was responsible for destructing some of the files and this is a
• 31:40
  memo in nineteen ninety eight, and you know, we have a few other
• 31:47
  corresponding documents. But yeah, I mean based on the nineteen ninety two JFK
• 31:52
  Records Act, in nineteen ninety eight, they still have a task force destroying
• 31:59
  docum. Who knows how many people, how much money was spent on this
• 32:04
  task force. As you know, the JFK movie, you know, garnered
• 32:10
  more interest in the case. Right, So they go directly to CYA mode
• 32:16
  and they say, we have to destroy more and uh, it's very very
• 32:23
  interesting. What do you think about this, Carlin? Yeah, I'm looking
• 32:28
  at over. There's very little on Joan Martin. She I'm wondering the dates.
• 32:38
  Oh no, no, I mean the dates of the destruction lists.
• 32:43
  Oh that's not that's yeah, yeah, that that would be very interesting.
• 32:47
  That's like, as I said with the DEA stuff, I'm trying to locate
• 32:51
  more information on it's it's very it's just bits and pieces. Yeah, we
• 32:55
  actually had the copy of the destruction log, which it might be the other
• 33:00
  document Joe's got. I'm wondering what volume nineteen is, yeah, right,
• 33:08
  because Volume nineteen was never destroyed and for some reason, yeah, forward copies
• 33:15
  of destruction lists regarding references to jacqu Leon Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald. I
• 33:21
  don't know if this meant them together or separately. Probably I would probably,
• 33:25
  I would imagine separate files. Yeah, so both of both Ruby's file and
• 33:30
  Oswald's file and then one one, one four four JFK task force could be
• 33:38
  some interesting things to look up individually to find more context on what exactly this
• 33:45
  task force was doing and when those dates of destruction actually happened. But like
• 33:52
  you said before, they probably destructed right of the destruction, destroyed the destruction
• 34:01
  instructions there we go. Yeah, well no, and I would I would.
• 34:06
  I wouldn't be surprised if it went on. But like I said,
• 34:08
  beyond seventy three, especially if it got a record ninety eight, then I'm
• 34:13
  thinking it would probably be after that. I could see them still destroying things
• 34:16
  even after the HCA, despite the agreements that were made. Well, I
• 34:22
  have a question for you, Carmine. Do you see a pattern of documents
• 34:27
  being destroyed, say pre Garrison, pre HCA, pre Church Committee pre Well,
• 34:35
  we know the Secret Service destroyed their documents, right, Carmine, Yeah,
• 34:37
  yeah, oh yeah, No, I certainly think that the timing.
• 34:42
  The question is when did he When did he do it? Yeah, the
• 34:45
  timing is far beyond coincidence because when you look at you know, as we're
• 34:49
  talking about, you know, Hoover, Hoover's files get destroyed. And that
• 34:54
  was my original article when I was talking about this is I was linking the
• 34:58
  destructions that occurred prior, because everybody always talked about, you know, what
• 35:01
  was destroyed with Hoover's files, thinking that it was you know, a a
• 35:07
  truckload or it was, you know, just just the files that were in
• 35:09
  Gandhi's office. But now it turned out to be multiple truckloads of dozens of
• 35:15
  file cabinets filled with hundreds of files each, plus cars bringing you know,
• 35:20
  extra files to be destroyed incinerated, plus files at different FBI offices, including
• 35:25
  the Washington d C Office, the field office that were being incinerated. It
• 35:30
  was a lot of files. It was about tens of thousands, I'd say,
• 35:34
  And then I would have loved to see that dude's basement, Oh my
• 35:37
  god. And then yeah, then as Rob mentioned, yeah, no,
• 35:40
  I mean after the after and during the commission, the Secret Services destroying files.
• 35:45
  The CIA is destroying files. The FBI is destroying files in smaller numbers,
• 35:51
  but perhaps in more critical areas as where the CIA. But we also
• 35:54
  too have to account for government ignorance, and we have to account for that.
• 36:02
  The common occurrence there was there were actually standards for like Mexico City is
• 36:07
  a good one, the Mexico City tapes and Mexico City transcript Well, some
• 36:14
  of the transcripts survived, but the tapes never survived, and the photos never
• 36:19
  survived. But the reasoning for the tapes is they they did replace. Basically,
• 36:25
  they're being cheap. The CIA were cheap as far as the surveillance operations,
• 36:31
  so they didn't always buy new tapes, and sometimes they would tape over
• 36:37
  old ones. Same thing, you know. And I'm not saying that that
• 36:39
  explains all the holes in the record that they created. I'm just saying that
• 36:44
  we have to at least allow that that can happen, and that might explain
• 36:47
  some of them, but it doesn't explain the specific Oswald ones. Yes,
• 36:53
  it doesn't explain why Ambassador Man and other people that the FBI heard the Oswall
• 37:00
  tapes with the public and the congressional investigators ever heard them. Yeah, didn't
• 37:05
  didn't Hoover say he heard him too when he was talking to OLBJ. Yeah,
• 37:07
  so those tapes weren't in the hands of the FBI and the CIA,
• 37:10
  and those tapes were vanished. Yeah, no matter what you you know,
• 37:15
  I mean, that's just probably because it wasn't Oswald on the tape might be
• 37:17
  my guess. Most likely That's what I would also guess is because it wasn't
• 37:22
  him. Well. Uh. Gruber has identified the guy, thankfully outside of
• 37:28
  the Mexico Embassy picture, as one of mac Wallace's former football players. Nice.
• 37:34
  Actually, what's his name? Because yeah, he was beaten to it
• 37:37
  by Richard hook On that identification Ralph Sink. But if that's who you're looking
• 37:45
  to for research, people, I got some bad news for you because I
• 37:50
  saw a mac Wallace comment in this in this thread earlier about his fingerprint,
• 37:54
  and I'm telling you right now, sir, uh, don't waste your time
• 38:00
  on it. Yeah, don't waste your time on it. Go read Jones
• 38:04
  Mellon's book. Uh what was it? What was that Faustian bargain? Yep,
• 38:10
  And you will find that the mac Wallace fingerprint is a giant myth YEP.
• 38:16
  Found it on an unfortunate you know, identification using bad resources. Yeah,
• 38:24
  you know, it was. It was kind of like the Reiner Reiner
• 38:29
  series that we covered on JFK Myths, where you know, just a lot
• 38:32
  of bad sources, you know, Negal and Fabian Escalante and you know,
• 38:39
  yeah, just just and that's what we're talking about. You know, these
• 38:43
  things pop up that are bad information, but then the good information never gets
• 38:50
  heard by the people that need to hear it. So you know, this
• 38:54
  mac Wallace myth just persists and persists and persist, while uh you know,
• 39:00
  actually somebody, uh you know, actually debunked the Macwalla's fingerprint. You just
• 39:05
  may have never heard about it, but it isn't Joan Mellon's book in the
• 39:08
  appendix in the book Fastian Bargain. And she, you know, she wrote
• 39:14
  a book about LBZ, about how evil he was. It would have it
• 39:17
  would have behooved her too for that to be Macwallis's fingerprint. Very true,
• 39:25
  but she got first, like a first generation copyright the directly from his military
• 39:32
  file, So it wasn't like the xeroxed one that was used in the supposed
• 39:37
  identification Wallless. So yeah, I just agree with what you're saying she used
• 39:42
  the right resources, she used the right means primary evidence, She looked it
• 39:45
  over, she had a fingerprint analysis person who taught other fingerprint analysis for people
• 39:52
  look at it, who was actually licensed at the time that they looked at.
• 39:54
  The person who made the Mackwalls one. Yeah, the guy that that
• 40:00
  guy who said it was mac Wallas's fingerprint was like ninety some years old,
• 40:02
  not licensed at the time, using xerox. Yeah, and a magnifying glass.
• 40:08
  I mean, come on, but I digress, all right, Well,
• 40:14
  and yeah, if it were nineteen sixty four, maybe he would have
• 40:16
  had a little more to stand. Right. We have the technology, we
• 40:21
  have the resources now to be able to check and that hopefully is what we'll
• 40:24
  put the bed some of these, you know, like all of us talking
• 40:29
  about it, and finally move it out of the way so we can get
• 40:30
  to some real names and real possibilities, right, because if we keep you
• 40:36
  know, if people keep rehashing the same old nonsense, sorry, guys,
• 40:40
  we're gonna keep going. We have to keep going. We have to keep
• 40:43
  knocking them down and you know, finding new stuff. You're killing me,
• 40:47
  Scott. You see that vein is starting to throw I know, I know
• 40:59
  everybody has missed your X. I thought I thought Richard case Neguill was mister
• 41:07
  X. Anyone could be you're mister X, Rob, that might be I
• 41:12
  had mister X on my show. Yeah, I remember, Cory. So
• 41:22
  let me get back to the next Joan Martin document I found regarding some destroying
• 41:29
  of documents that I thought would be relevant to something that to what Carbine was
• 41:36
  talking about. This is the next one. This is attention Joe Martin on
• 41:40
  the top right of the page. This is also on the JFP task Force.
• 41:45
  It would be interesting to synopsis Miami's requested to forward the documents listed below
• 41:52
  to the JFK set Task Force as as possible do an extremely short deadline of
• 41:59
  what I'm hurry. Yep, we got documents to destroy here, damn wave.
• 42:05
  Yeah, fifty six years after he might actually I'm sorry, I was
• 42:10
  just gonna mention you might actually still find some of the Richardson documents in there,
• 42:15
  because I found some of those later on after I had found out who
• 42:17
  he was. They still were trying to protect his name, Like into the
• 42:25
  nineties, they were still trying to protect his name because I think because they
• 42:30
  were still probably operationally using him that I saw that he worked for the United
• 42:35
  Nations afterwards, so chances are he was one of their guys in the United
• 42:39
  Nations. Yeah, and one thing I want to read from this is the
• 42:46
  JFKA Records Act defines how the FBI may now postpone certain information. But the
• 42:52
  originals are still Sentinara to be maintained until the year twenty seventeen, which we
• 43:00
  had some good releases but not significant ones, but not all of them like
• 43:06
  was supposed to be. And it's just very interesting that this lady Joan Martin
• 43:13
  is involved in this, and she's also involved found as one of another files
• 43:21
  that we found, again very hard to find anything on her. She is
• 43:27
  negotiated aka Carline said it was kind of like a redaction of sorts, and
• 43:34
  you can expand on that to Jose Molina and I believe I would call it
• 43:43
  more of a suggestion to destroy. Yeah, yeah, they didn't. Well,
• 43:47
  it could be like I was saying, it could be a consolidation.
• 43:51
  It could be because they had to make some sort of deal to keep those
• 43:57
  records held, or maybe you destroyed them. That could be it as well.
• 44:00
  And you can see folks that we're talking about Orlando Bosh, Sam g
• 44:05
  and Kanna, Joseph Molina, the entire Jure organization. I don't know who
• 44:10
  Richard Frank and Ed Moss are, but you know I believe those were a
• 44:17
  reviewed and are negotiated and slash destroyed by Jim Piglici. So Joan Martin was
• 44:24
  responsible for the people on the right side, I think is what I was
• 44:29
  able to. And I have two or three pages of this document. We
• 44:34
  will post it on our local page and along with some of the other documents
• 44:40
  we've shown here, and you can kind of make your own decision. But
• 44:47
  Joan Martin was part of the JFK task Force, and I think she was
• 44:52
  high enough as to where she was c seed and forwarded and attention a few
• 45:01
  significant documents regarding destroying of documents in nineteen ninety seven nineteen only eight. So
• 45:12
  we have extended your timeline. But we have one more surprise. We looked
• 45:17
  into Joan Marton and we think we found her. I'm skipping to the third
• 45:23
  sentence. She was married to Big Bob. Joan, Joan and Bob did
• 45:30
  everything together. Yes, so Rob, damn it, you found my ex
• 45:36
  wife. Do you have anything to say for yourself here? Yeah, were
• 45:40
  God rest her soul her and uh uh yeah, yeah, I found this
• 45:45
  right and I was like, she was married to Big Bob. I was
• 45:49
  like, what in the Sam Hill's going on around here? I just thought
• 45:54
  it was funny, Big Bob, Yeah, it is funny. And yeah,
• 46:02
  that is just a couple of the weird things we had on Joan waartn
• 46:08
  that we kind of tangentially found while looking for Martin's that were involved in the
• 46:15
  JFK case. And we were very surprised that one popped up so late that
• 46:20
  they were possibly still using this potential alias. I was. I just wanted
• 46:24
  to add I totally agree with the first document with the destruction. The second
• 46:30
  two could relate to it, But I think the second one also might be
• 46:34
  the Like we said that it depends on who's phrasing, what negotiated means and
• 46:40
  what, But that also could be that they negotiated that certain files wouldn't be
• 46:46
  released, right they think it would be. Yeah, Yeah, the first
• 46:51
  one I think was definitely destruction and destruction lists that they also they might have
• 46:54
  been trying to find out I mean, imagine being internally in the government trying
• 46:59
  to find out what was destroyed. Like if you just sent out like a
• 47:02
  query to all the different departments that are like, hey, did anybody destroy
• 47:07
  anything? Yeah, and then it just starts coming back that millions, you
• 47:10
  know, hundreds of thousands of pages had been destroyed. I know, it's
• 47:15
  crazy. Yeah, And you have to keep in mind a lot of these
• 47:20
  people the mind have destroyed things in the sixties or seventies, weren't around in
• 47:24
  the nineties to destroy things, so they might have not like to your point,
• 47:29
  in earlier, they might not have been aware of certain earlier destructions.
• 47:32
  Right. That goes back to compartmentalization, which I'm well certain the assassination was
• 47:37
  carried out in a compartmentalized way. That's how that's how ops like that were
• 47:44
  carrying out. And like we talked about with the you know, the turf
• 47:47
  wars and the interagency fighting that's still going on, that's why they had to
• 47:52
  create the Department of Homeland Security to try to unify all the different organizations that
• 47:58
  were still never learned from the syxties and seventies in the Cold War that not
• 48:01
  acting together would always create problems. So that too, I mean that you
• 48:05
  know, until twenty twenty three, we didn't know the DIA deep six dollars
• 48:09
  files, and until you just showed us that we did not, they were
• 48:13
  still destroying files. So you know, who knows that what is still undiscovered?
• 48:16
  But just with what we have discovered, That's why I think with the
• 48:22
  DIA specifically, it's important because they only destroyed all of their JFK files.
• 48:31
  If there was nothing in those files that were incriminating or would have been of
• 48:37
  use to the investigators, what other purpose would you have Embarrassment there you go,
• 48:45
  There had to be something, And like I said, it could have
• 48:47
  been something as benign as a couple of troopers saying that they wish they could
• 48:52
  take a shot at Kennedy. Yeah, to actually somebody making a Harvey mistake
• 48:59
  writing, you know, two assassins, two handlers JFK on the same piece
• 49:05
  of paper. I mean, it could it could be, you know,
• 49:07
  from one extreme to the other. But it certainly was something worth destroying.
• 49:10
  And the effort it would take to destroy that many documents is no small feat.
• 49:15
  You have to get groups of people together that have to assess all of
• 49:21
  your file holdings, anything with mention of JFK and purge it and that's a
• 49:28
  long process, it is. And characters related to the JFK, right,
• 49:32
  so someone anyone not connected at all to JFK who could provide some clues or
• 49:40
  context. You also have to dig into them and make sure you get rid
• 49:46
  of some of their files. And the DA is the storehouse for all the
• 49:50
  departments of the military. And then the DoD is who I find destroying Lee
• 49:55
  Harvey Oswald's file in seventy three in the second article. So it moves up
• 50:00
  the destruction began in the military. The d IA then destroys all of its
• 50:05
  conglomerate files. Then the DoD starts purging specific JFK files. Well, wasn't
• 50:12
  there a fire to Carmine like seventy somewhere? Call it a happy coincidence there,
• 50:17
  Yeah, what happens. It just so happens. After the Lee Harvey
• 50:23
  Oswald file was destroyed and the Army was going through trying to destroy all of
• 50:28
  its files on certain things, they had a fire at an army you know,
• 50:32
  a base where the holding center was destroyed and sixteen million files. Why
• 50:40
  up, Yeah, I think the same thing happened on nine to eleven,
• 50:45
  I believe, Let me double check it might have been one point six,
• 50:47
  but it was in the millions. Wow. If you were going to like
• 50:52
  put that in, like stack that up, that would be like a building.
• 51:00
  A lot of people don't know that building seven right, World Trade Center
• 51:04
  was housing all kinds of documents for government agencies as well. I mean that's
• 51:09
  what it was full of. Sorry I was being conservative. Sixteen point five
• 51:14
  million. Oh Jesus Christ, that's so many. And it wiped. I
• 51:21
  mean not just the jeff because the JFFK things were the JEFFK destructions were separate.
• 51:27
  This was just everything about various army figures. They talked about decades of
• 51:35
  files being lost in that fire. Oh yeah, so just gone poof yep.
• 51:40
  And it just so happens. It happened right before it happened after the
• 51:45
  Watergate Committee was founded and the congressional investigations were beginning that would lead to the
• 51:52
  Church Committee in other formations the next year, and people were asking questions and
• 51:58
  the press was getting involved, and there was a fire everything. You have
• 52:05
  to think that documents like MK Ultra related, Phoenix operation Phoenix related, it
• 52:14
  doesn't only have to deal with JFK. And and I think that we have
• 52:21
  tons of military operations between the CIA and between other branches of the military.
• 52:28
  I think, I think that's our last hope, to be honest, is
• 52:31
  that some idiot somewhere misfiled something. And I mean not that I think there's
• 52:38
  a smoking gun document, but something significant enough for us or Malcolm Blunt z
• 52:46
  Rocks did before they well it was yeah, there you go. But it's
• 52:53
  yeah, it's you know, I think that. And he's a great guy.
• 52:58
  By the way, I met Malcolm Blunt. He's a he's a he's
• 53:00
  a great Englishman, one of my favorites, as I've told Allen Dale before.
• 53:04
  But uh, yeah, it's it. Human error is what we have
• 53:07
  to rely on. Human error is what gave me that dea document that should
• 53:10
  have never been allowed into the files. They should have destroyed. And it's
• 53:15
  hilarious because it's like how other larger programs are found on just a little communication
• 53:20
  that really had not much to do with it, that would just sort of
• 53:22
  stacked in amongst because sometimes they miss file against it or forget to redact things.
• 53:27
  You know, it's like hmmm, or redact them separately. That's my
• 53:30
  favorite versions come out, But if you put them together, you can actually
• 53:34
  get the whole document, because yeah, it's redacted in the beginning and one
• 53:37
  in the end. Hey Carmen, you want to take this question from Paula,
• 53:43
  Go ahead. Oh so, the first problem with the Clint Murchison story
• 53:50
  is Clint Murchison did not own the ranch the day that this party was supposed
• 53:54
  to have taken place. He owned it earlier in the year or the year
• 53:57
  before, I believe. Uh so that's problem. Another issue is a lot
• 54:05
  of the figures that are supposed to be there change if you look at the
• 54:08
  varying versions of the Clint Murchison story. Sometimes you have Hoover, sometimes you
• 54:14
  have Dulles, sometimes you have all sorts of famous people who actually flew back
• 54:20
  to Washington and confirmed who would never have been present. If you are a
• 54:27
  conspirator with a brain in your head, you are alone conspirator. You do
• 54:32
  not have a big party where you blatantly talk about I mean, that's how
• 54:38
  much more bond villain can you be than to have a big party to talk
• 54:43
  with all your minions about what you're gonna do, and you don't tell your
• 54:47
  mistress that you don't have to worry about the Kennedy's After well, and if
• 54:52
  you look at her story Madlin Brown too, unfortunately it changes over time as
• 54:55
  well, so it's she was trying to cash in. I believe she had
• 54:59
  a six child. You know, I understand why a lot of the myth
• 55:01
  makers do what they do, but they're still myths. I mean, no
• 55:07
  matter how dramatic or heartwarming the story maybe, or Judy in her romance tales,
• 55:14
  it doesn't you know, various myths that crap up around this case might
• 55:17
  be, you know, pull on your heartstrings, but that doesn't make him
• 55:21
  true. Yeah, and according to the Secret Service, LBJ was in his
• 55:25
  hotel room by eleven pm that night. And once again, Johnson, like
• 55:30
  I've talked about elsewhere, Johnson is not a mastermind. I'm sorry. He's
• 55:37
  a you know, great bully. He's a villain and making other people do
• 55:43
  his work for him. Yeah. Yeah, he's a He is a perfect
• 55:46
  manipulator, and you know, was a politician certainly, but he's not a
• 55:52
  mastermind. He doesn't have military tactics at his disposal, he doesn't have people
• 55:58
  that would want to at the time that he office. I mean, first
• 56:00
  of all, he comes in in the shadow of JFK's death, that's the
• 56:04
  first problem. And when people like to say it was Johnson amongst the yeah,
• 56:07
  you know, as Rob said, he wasn't you know, there for
• 56:09
  this party, but Johnson. In the days following Kennedy's assassination, there's documents
• 56:15
  that show him having private conversations with Jagger Hoover where he asks if one of
• 56:19
  the bullets was meant for him? If you set up that assassination, you
• 56:25
  don't have to ask that question. Yeah right. Didn't he order the shutters
• 56:30
  clothes on Air Force one when he got on because he was afraid of snipers?
• 56:36
  Is that a myth? I'm not sure I've heard I've heard that said.
• 56:39
  I just know certainly that he was. He feared for his security after
• 56:43
  Jeff And who wouldn't. I mean, you're you're stepping into the shoes of
• 56:46
  a guy who was publicly executed. Yeah. Yeah. And again, if
• 56:50
  you listen to go back and the LBJ library, you can listen to a
• 56:52
  lot of his personal phone calls, you know, that were made at the
• 56:55
  White House. And everybody always says, oh, you know, he wanted
• 56:59
  to be president, right, you know, Well, if you listen to
• 57:02
  some of his conversations with his friends after he becomes president and gets a taste
• 57:08
  of what being a president actually entails and all the pressure and stress and everything
• 57:15
  else that comes along with it. You know, he he confided into his
• 57:22
  friends that he didn't want to do it anymore. That's you know, he
• 57:27
  didn't want to seek a second term, and he was seeking advice. What
• 57:31
  shod I do? I don't know what to do? I mean over my
• 57:35
  head type thing. So he wasn't mastermind of anything. And I can't remember
• 57:39
  scept taking dumps. I can't remember if it was MBC or what network put
• 57:45
  it out, But there was a special in the seventies that was about the
• 57:47
  JFKKSH They interview Johnson, and he asked that it not be released. You
• 57:52
  know, his comments that were of course later released, the transcripts were.
• 57:55
  But when they asked him if there's a conspiracy, he believed there was one.
• 58:00
  And if you're a conspirator, you'd never admit that, you'd always cleave
• 58:04
  to the government claims that there wasn't. Yeah, he believed all Lee,
• 58:08
  Harvey Oswald did it. What are you talking about? So, yeah,
• 58:13
  there's even Johnson, I mean, I don't you know, there's just so
• 58:19
  many reasons why I think Lindon Johnson is associated. One. He's the vice
• 58:22
  president. Ever, you know, who stands the game? That's always the
• 58:24
  argument made, who stands the game? Well, you know what, probably
• 58:28
  a lot of the investors in Vietnam stood the gain more than Lindon Johnson.
• 58:35
  In the end, Lindon Johnson ends up becoming basically a puppet for the Vietnam
• 58:37
  war effort. Yeah, you know. Yeah, And he did not go
• 58:42
  along with the UH, which is what I personally believe was the goal of
• 58:49
  the plotters, which was to prompt an invasion of Cuba. That's just my
• 58:52
  personal working theory. He did not go along with that. He actually was
• 58:58
  very concerned about nuclear war breaking out because of this. Yeah, well,
• 59:04
  he was also very concerned about his image, very egocentric, so Johnson.
• 59:07
  Were Johnson to have undertaken such a thing, there's no way he would have
• 59:12
  gotten you know. It's like when discussing the Reiner thing. With Reiner,
• 59:16
  there's at least eleven to twelve people minimum in the plot that he proposes.
• 59:20
  That's just too many, I'm sorry to say. You know, you don't
• 59:23
  need that many people, And Johnson wouldn't have needed because now imagine this,
• 59:28
  so if Johnson, let's go along with it for a second. Let's give
• 59:30
  the Murchison theory what it was. Okay, so he told a room of
• 59:35
  a dozen or more people what he's doing. So that's a dozen people that
• 59:37
  know, plus the assassins, plus the handlers, plus any other go betweens
• 59:44
  that are necessary to make this thing work. So how many people are we
• 59:46
  talking about here? How big of a plot do you think could have been
• 59:51
  made without somebody going to someone and telling them about it. Yeah, that's
• 59:57
  a good point, and yeah, thank you for the question, Paula.
• 1:00:00
  And we love busting myths around here, and we'd be happy to do it.
• 1:00:07
  And that's one of the that's one of the bigger ones that prevails out
• 1:00:09
  there, that you know that people think Lynnon Johnson's the mastermind. There's books
• 1:00:13
  written about it, there's you know, movies, papers, presentations, you
• 1:00:19
  name it, YouTube, university episodes by Domin Dummer. Another. I was
• 1:00:25
  also going to say, not only people who should you know? Because I
• 1:00:29
  always say, you know who stands the game? Not only the supporters the
• 1:00:31
  Vietnam War, But how about Richard Nixon? I don't think Nixon was responsible.
• 1:00:36
  But Richard Nixon was the one who wins by the chrismatic Kennedy dying and
• 1:00:42
  by an easily defeatable Johnson being the person that he would have had to face,
• 1:00:46
  right if you want to go and postulate about who actually benefits. Yeah,
• 1:00:53
  and uh, from what I could tell from what I've listened from Nixon
• 1:00:59
  interviews, he he respected Kennedy as a as an admirable opponent, you know,
• 1:01:06
  he wasn't that was Nixon's way. Nixon publicly like to destroy people.
• 1:01:10
  I don't. I don't. Then Nixon was the assassination. I mean,
• 1:01:14
  I'm not to say that he wasn't allowing people, you know, in my
• 1:01:16
  opinion, war criminals, like he just died recently, everybody honored him like
• 1:01:27
  a Kissinger. Oh yeah, you know, he was allowing Kissinger to wholesale
• 1:01:31
  destroy parts of Asia and bomb Cambodi, you know, and and increased the
• 1:01:37
  Vietnam War certainly. And that was okay because like what's Joe's point earlier?
• 1:01:42
  You know, look, it wasn't just Kennedy, it wasn't just Wit.
• 1:01:45
  Nobody wanted to start a war at our front doorstep sixty miles off our shore
• 1:01:52
  and poked the Russian bear in the process. But it's okay, you want
• 1:01:57
  to go have a war over there. We can't see you and nobody,
• 1:02:00
  the Americans can't see what you're doing. And you know, we'll send our
• 1:02:04
  troops over there, way over there, you know, where nothing could possibly
• 1:02:07
  get to us. That's fine, that's one thing. But no president would
• 1:02:13
  want to start a war with Cuba or Mexico or Canada. I mean,
• 1:02:16
  that's insanity. Colonel reb Man, you freaking rock And thank you Scott from
• 1:02:24
  earlier as well, much appreciated boys. Yes, thank you everyone. Yeah,
• 1:02:34
  it's just man, I think when people talk about who benefits, they
• 1:02:37
  just have to look deeper into that question beyond LBJ. LBJ is the easy
• 1:02:43
  answer. LBJ is the well you know, it's like if something were to
• 1:02:46
  happen now, would people automatically if Biden were to be assassinated, wul people
• 1:02:52
  outally suspect Kamala. Yeah, some people would, but chances are probably not
• 1:02:54
  hurt because you be the first person people would suspect. Yeah, I mean,
• 1:03:01
  point in your home state, doing it in your home state, Yeah,
• 1:03:06
  exactly. Well, and that I think that's why with all your around
• 1:03:08
  it's the locational thing. I think that makes it so strong for people.
• 1:03:12
  They want to believe that, well, what happened in Texas. Johnson didn't
• 1:03:15
  control Dallas, he controlled the outlying areas. He was well the car line,
• 1:03:19
  he was going to go to jail. Well, once again, if
• 1:03:22
  they can show me the charging documents for where he was going to jail,
• 1:03:25
  I'll be more to happen to believe that. But until you can, No,
• 1:03:28
  he wasn't people or or I just don't think he killed JFK. Was
• 1:03:37
  it the Life or Time article that was supposed to come out before JFK got
• 1:03:42
  killed, but then after he got killed, that story was asked something with
• 1:03:46
  Billy Celesties or something, and uh then he got off. Yeah, like
• 1:03:52
  people forgot about it or like that is that that's a myth? Well oh
• 1:03:55
  yeah, well but yeah, Billy select I think a lot of the parmercoll
• 1:03:59
  and stuff from what I've heard, I mean, I was not there.
• 1:04:02
  I've just talked to different researchers and different sources on it. McClellan was a
• 1:04:08
  member of the law firm, but he was a minor figure. He didn't
• 1:04:13
  really have access to all Johnson's private files like he said he did. So
• 1:04:17
  I'm not really convinced unless you know, someone can show me that McClellan was
• 1:04:23
  personally handling Johnson's affairs, that he even had access to the things that he
• 1:04:27
  claimed, And why once again would they write it. No conspirator is going
• 1:04:32
  to write I killed jif FYI I killed Chiff. That's just not going to
• 1:04:41
  be. We're never going to find that file. And if we do,
• 1:04:44
  it's been planted because I'm sorry to say, I I just don't think it's
• 1:04:49
  gonna be. I think it's gonna be as we've had to do before,
• 1:04:51
  piecemeal work. But eventually some of the pictures start to emerge, you know,
• 1:04:56
  like with the things you guys have found with the Martins, you know,
• 1:04:59
  the things that I found of the DEA and the stuff we're going to
• 1:05:00
  continue to find, and those you know, other researchers that are out there,
• 1:05:06
  a lot of great people still looking and now at shockingly, I think
• 1:05:10
  somehow it seems to me like there's more interest now, Like I'm I'm surprised.
• 1:05:15
  I remember when I first started getting involved, I'd say about you know,
• 1:05:19
  ten ten years ago, ten twelve years ago, there was a it
• 1:05:25
  was on the Wayne, and it continued to wane for a while, and
• 1:05:30
  then the sixtieth really reinvigorated everything, and there's just a ton of new people
• 1:05:35
  that are interested. And I'm glad there's people like Joe that are you know,
• 1:05:39
  people that are using quality resources and saving other people time. It's really
• 1:05:43
  going to be about us saving each other time, and in that time savings,
• 1:05:47
  someone is going to hit something that will hopefully connect more of the dots.
• 1:05:51
  Yep, well, thank you very much, Carline. I appreciate that,
• 1:05:55
  and you actually did a perfect segue for I think what we should tell
• 1:06:00
  talk about next, which is some of the documents Rob and I were able
• 1:06:04
  to find find while going through our Martin journey. And as I explained on
• 1:06:11
  the o'celly effect last week, you know, we started off with the anomaly
• 1:06:16
  of all these Martins, but it kind of evolved into a really deep dive,
• 1:06:23
  detailed study of a few of them, right John T. Martin of
• 1:06:28
  Minnesota, James Herbert Martin, a few others, and James Herbert Martin has
• 1:06:38
  drawn the most interest. I before I was on with you guys, I
• 1:06:43
  was actually zooming with mister Larry H. We zoomed yesterday as well. I
• 1:06:48
  am to your point, Carmine helping up with a little part of the aftermath
• 1:06:56
  timeline of Marina and when she was in reviewed and it's the things we found
• 1:07:05
  on James ver Martin perplexed, mind blowing, because this is the guy that
• 1:07:12
  I would have probably said, just looking at a list of Jay Martin's beforehand,
• 1:07:15
  that I would think this is going to be a dud. There's nothing
• 1:07:19
  here. Who cares about this guy? And then you start tripping over these
• 1:07:25
  documents and it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a
• 1:07:29
  minute here, what's going on here? What in the hell is going on
• 1:07:31
  here? You know, I think from and I know's going to go into
• 1:07:36
  it, but I think some of the things that Joe told me, it
• 1:07:40
  shows you that net that way back when I and Rob talked about it a
• 1:07:44
  little bit, but just that net around Oswald and his wife that was formed
• 1:07:49
  by people with connections to various official groups. You know, there are people,
• 1:07:55
  of course jockeying for position. They wanted to use her name to their
• 1:07:59
  benefit, wanted to use the sympathy that she was generating to their benefit.
• 1:08:02
  But there are also people preassassination that had been monitoring them, like you know,
• 1:08:08
  Hosty, you know we have the CIA pain, Yeah, Ruth Pain,
• 1:08:14
  we have it. Yeah, in four months, all reporting back from
• 1:08:15
  various agencies, and it continues after he's dead, which is and what's crazy
• 1:08:20
  is this is, you know, from some of the doctor like the one
• 1:08:23
  I sent you. I didn't know if you guys had seen that one because
• 1:08:26
  I know there's a ton of them, but I sent one to Rob that
• 1:08:29
  talks about some monitoring officials were doing during her commission testimony. Oh and and
• 1:08:35
  it's like it's February. He hasn't been I mean, you guys have go
• 1:08:40
  into it. But her what she is doing less than three months after the
• 1:08:45
  death of her us. Yeah, needless to say, I think there might
• 1:08:48
  have been some ulterior motives for her. Mary nosweal something. I mean,
• 1:08:57
  I was surprised to find out about her and Huansworth. I mean it's you
• 1:09:00
  know, that's how supposedly he got the copy of the diary, right,
• 1:09:06
  unbelievable. But yeah, so you figure, you know, like you said,
• 1:09:10
  pre assassination, you have the FBI sniffing around Marina. I think they
• 1:09:15
  were more worried about her than Oswald. You know, just from her being
• 1:09:21
  Russian, them suspecting her of being a spy, you know, of course
• 1:09:25
  coming back over here with him. And then after the assassinate, well,
• 1:09:31
  I guess during the assassination, while you know Lee is after he's in custody
• 1:09:38
  but still alive, you know, the DPD kind of steps into the picture.
• 1:09:43
  And then after Oswald's killed, you have the Secret Service coming into the
• 1:09:46
  picture and whisking her away and secluding her and her family out at the Six
• 1:09:53
  Flags. And then this guy, James Herbert Martin takes custody of Marina.
• 1:10:00
  Basically, so you kind of asked yourself, Okay, well, you have
• 1:10:08
  all these government agencies, the FBI, the c I, a secret Service,
• 1:10:13
  and they all want to know more and watch Marina closely. But Marina
• 1:10:18
  doesn't trust the FBI, you know, short of moving secret Service people into
• 1:10:25
  a citizen's home, you know, what else can you do? Like just
• 1:10:31
  yeah, I'm sure she did at other times, but in the document that
• 1:10:34
  I sent a rod, she dis misses the Secret Service. Yeah, and
• 1:10:38
  they're all tailing her and and and surveilling her. You know, they're they're
• 1:10:43
  they're watching what she's doing, They're following her around and the big key is
• 1:10:47
  what is she saying to this guy and what is she doing in this guy's
• 1:10:51
  house with this guy's family, you know, which brings us to the uh
• 1:10:58
  you know, a direct line installation to White House communications being installed in the
• 1:11:02
  Martin's house, you know. And this is like handwritten on a DPD intelligence
• 1:11:06
  document that we that we came across, and there's little intricacies in that that
• 1:11:14
  might be able to tell us more about why exactly that happened like that.
• 1:11:20
  You know, our guess is probably to keep tabs on h on Marina,
• 1:11:28
  you know, being able to get in touch with this guy whenever they wanted
• 1:11:31
  to him, being able to get in touch with them if he found something
• 1:11:35
  out. Yep. Basically I just wanted to interject I could be yes scrit
• 1:11:41
  service wanting a direct line to the White House, right, yeah, yeah,
• 1:11:45
  exactly. Well well let her come live with you, but we're gonna
• 1:11:49
  do this type thing, you know, exactly right, And that's s op
• 1:11:55
  for like CIA and FBI. They bug everything and they if they can install
• 1:12:00
  lines, especially communication lines. I mean, I'm sure they're already bugging the
• 1:12:03
  house. They were bugging the house. I'm sure they're already bugging house.
• 1:12:08
  Yeah. Yeah, the FBI was bugging the house, and the Secret Service
• 1:12:12
  had this line installed, you know, directly to White House Communications. And
• 1:12:17
  it's like, wow, I don't Yeah, if you think about the timeline,
• 1:12:23
  I'm sorry, Carmen, if you think about the timeline and James Marina
• 1:12:28
  moving it to James Herbert Martin's house on November twenty ninth, and the direct
• 1:12:32
  line being installed on December third. To Rob's point, and actually Lowry and
• 1:12:40
  I talked about this, there was almost certainly, say, let's assume he
• 1:12:45
  was involved with no one, right, who was the greatest opportunist ever,
• 1:12:49
  Right, there would have been a condition like, okay, but if anything
• 1:12:56
  comes up national security wise, you better f and pick up this phone type
• 1:13:00
  thing, right. And I think that's kind of where the law, uh,
• 1:13:10
  the logic is taking me right now. But I think there had to
• 1:13:15
  be some type of deal made before. And obviously we know from the Die
• 1:13:23
  Circle document we found, which was by the way, guys, new releases,
• 1:13:28
  they might be negotiated, let's say, but there's still good things to
• 1:13:34
  be found because we found that James Herbert Martin's wife was on the oral contract
• 1:13:43
  to the CIA and the uh on the CIA payroll. Yeah, was it
• 1:13:48
  the Personnel division robs as thirteen? Well, they were hired or be a
• 1:13:53
  wire innercept Yeah, I think it was an extension of an oral contract and
• 1:13:58
  that was in June of sixty four, So right, right, So CIA
• 1:14:02
  has a wire intercept operator living in the house where they installed the direct line
• 1:14:08
  to the White House. Yes, yes, we believe Listen anything in this
• 1:14:14
  case, you can not prove one, but from what we found document wise,
• 1:14:20
  sorry, uh, that's that's where that's what A points to. Well,
• 1:14:26
  well, and that those two things make sense together if you consider those
• 1:14:30
  two things. That she would be able to send messages coded and having that
• 1:14:34
  line could be complimentary, and she wouldn't be the first. Like I and
• 1:14:40
  Rob referred to earlier. You've got Ruth Payne, whose sister, Sylvia Hyde
• 1:14:44
  Hockey works for the CIA. You've got it certainly helps too, you know
• 1:14:49
  if she knows Russian, Yeah, you know, if she if she's monitoring
• 1:14:56
  uh you know, WIRRE intercepts coming out of Russia and she knows Russian,
• 1:15:00
  that would certainly help a lot, you know in the house. Oh yeah,
• 1:15:04
  yeah, And you have people like you know, de clin Ford and
• 1:15:08
  others, all who have associations varying figures all around Marina orly at some time
• 1:15:14
  or another, like you said to Mornshield and Carlos Springer, and I mean,
• 1:15:20
  it's almost an endless list if you really want to go into it.
• 1:15:23
  But oh, another person, some of the people that aren't very commonly said
• 1:15:28
  that I came across the years ago. For instance, the associate embassy officer,
• 1:15:34
  not Richard Schneider, but what was his name, mc vickar, McVicar,
• 1:15:40
  John mcvickar. Yeah, so McVicar, I found out that Schneider's contract
• 1:15:45
  Actually, remember how they say that, Well, Schneider was only a contract
• 1:15:47
  agent for forty one. Actually his contract was renewed later on in the fifties,
• 1:15:53
  but they don't mention that year that he came back to the agency,
• 1:15:57
  did little work for them right before he was in the embassy. Is zero
• 1:16:00
  credence to operational years employed by Yeah, especially when working in the embassy.
• 1:16:08
  There's a common saying one CIA always see it. Well, but I just
• 1:16:11
  love it when you can find an operational document that verifies so it's not yea,
• 1:16:15
  you know, they can say they were cut off and they didn't work
• 1:16:16
  for them anymore. But but there was this kind of like what's his name?
• 1:16:20
  The Jefferson Morley found the documents on Joe Needs. You know, they
• 1:16:26
  they failed to mention that he wasn't just a document reviewer in seventy eight,
• 1:16:29
  he also was helping with the exile operations during the sixth running the DRE.
• 1:16:33
  Yeah. Yeah, running the DRE. You know you had a budget of
• 1:16:38
  what twenty dollars a month? Oh I well, yeah, I mean yeah
• 1:16:45
  exactly. So it's but yeah, you have when you go back. Yeah,
• 1:16:50
  but McVicar, Yeah, the thing I found on McVicar was that he
• 1:16:53
  had basically set up various meetings with the ozzle the press that you were facilitated
• 1:17:00
  by Snyder and then you find out, I uh. One of the things
• 1:17:03
  I was able to prove a couple of years back that I presented at a
• 1:17:06
  Lancer was a that Priscilla Johnson McMillan had a contract with the CIA. There's
• 1:17:14
  another one. So how many people do we need to surround these stupid Yeah?
• 1:17:17
  She moved in with Morena later on and wrote that scathing book that attacked
• 1:17:21
  Oswald while still in communication with the CIA. Yeah. It would not surprise
• 1:17:28
  me if Martin, either on the FBI or the CIA or another agency's impetus
• 1:17:33
  was sent to monitor her. Well, yeah, I mean he got the
• 1:17:35
  bonus of as you might have gone over in the show, already becoming quite
• 1:17:41
  familiar with missus Oswald. Yes, and financially too, so you have to
• 1:17:46
  They had a joint bank bank account, right or was it was it a
• 1:17:53
  postal office Either way, that was the post office box. Yeah, so,
• 1:17:59
  uh so, donations were arriving to Ruth Paine's house naturally, and guess
• 1:18:04
  I came across the document. Guess who she delivered them to. Robin knows,
• 1:18:09
  John Martin Thorne, who was a Marina's lawyer, And you know,
• 1:18:14
  me and Carmine are a fellow Baison's, and we know that there's some type
• 1:18:21
  of skim going on with these cash donations and with a and I found a
• 1:18:28
  document sixty eight thousand dollars was in a bank account named to Marina that the
• 1:18:33
  Martins were unable to touch. That's times ten and purchasing power today six hundred
• 1:18:40
  and eighty grand. Right, that's just what we know about that. That's
• 1:18:44
  without the skim, without the skin. Yeah, but I mean the in
• 1:18:46
  cash donation she'd get from pub members of the public. The I mean she
• 1:18:50
  got Marina made a lot of money, plus the book deal. Yeah,
• 1:18:55
  and she was the press and be like stupid Americans. She certainly yeah,
• 1:19:03
  I mean it's you know people, once again, the heartstrings. I understand
• 1:19:08
  she went through a lot. She's young mother, you know. I understand
• 1:19:13
  that she had a lot going on. But one can also two things can
• 1:19:16
  be true at the same time. She can be a young mother whose husband
• 1:19:19
  tragically died and at the same time be an opportunist who is being manipulated by
• 1:19:25
  the government unknowingly, right, yeah, and yeah, the sad truth of
• 1:19:30
  it, she's working at the seven eleven in nineteen seventy one or was it
• 1:19:34
  by nineteen sixty nine and she was working at seven eleven, I don't know,
• 1:19:39
  I can't remember it, which is crazy with the amount of money that
• 1:19:41
  must have changed hands, right right, I mean I understand what she changed
• 1:19:45
  business managers because either Martin or Declined Ford or someone must have been buzzled so
• 1:19:49
  much money. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Declon Ford is a very
• 1:19:55
  interesting character. It's funny you mentioned him. I've came across him lot in
• 1:20:00
  my research in the aftermath, Marina trusted him and his wife Catherine more than
• 1:20:05
  anyone, and she seems to always be looking for a sponsor, like someone
• 1:20:13
  to protect her right. You know, maybe Oswald that was somebody she could
• 1:20:17
  trust. Yeah, she just wanted like Oswald was her taken out of the
• 1:20:20
  Soviet Union, you know, her chance to get to America. And then
• 1:20:25
  when he was gone, she needed a new sponsor. So she found a
• 1:20:29
  man married or not. Yeah, deals with them and tried to promote her
• 1:20:35
  own interests. You know, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna judge her for
• 1:20:41
  I think you know, hey, judge people however you want. But I
• 1:20:45
  do think it might have been a little early. You could have waited six
• 1:20:47
  months after yet you could have waited six months I'm just saying. But to
• 1:20:55
  your point, Carmine, and like you, it both can be true.
• 1:21:00
  You can be a grieving widow and be like, I'm sorry, Lee,
• 1:21:02
  I have to do this for children, I have to take advantage of this,
• 1:21:08
  I have to make money, I have to do whatever. And you
• 1:21:13
  know it both could be true. Yea, but you can't be loyal to
• 1:21:16
  someone in six feet under when you're worried about your children's future, and you're
• 1:21:24
  worried about being deported or possibly imprisoned. Right as an accomplice. Yeah,
• 1:21:31
  her actions are not I think what makes to me the questionable things about Marina
• 1:21:38
  are one. The disloyalty to us all so quickly, with so many different
• 1:21:43
  people is one thing. But let's put that aside. That can be always
• 1:21:47
  just, you know, as certain as a moral judgment. I'm trying to
• 1:21:49
  morally judge. I'm just trying to say I think that shows to how loyal
• 1:21:53
  she was. I don't think she was very loyal to anybody. I think
• 1:21:55
  she might have said she was loyal to some people, but I don't think
• 1:21:58
  Marina was very loyal to anyone but Marine, and that I think is revealed
• 1:22:00
  by her testimony, which you can see there's different versions of. In one
• 1:22:06
  version of the testimony, she wakes up with Oswald, she makes breakfast,
• 1:22:12
  he eats and leaves. In another version, she's asleep and when she wakes
• 1:22:15
  up, he's gone. And that's just one with the Yeah, yeah,
• 1:22:20
  that's just one of the backyard photographs and this and that. Yeah, there's
• 1:22:25
  just there's too many inconsistently even what's funny is the Commission, for as much
• 1:22:29
  as they relied on what she said in various times, quietly was saying that
• 1:22:33
  she was a liar. And they actually had people that wanted to bring her
• 1:22:38
  up to impeach her statements, but that would have damaged the commission, so
• 1:22:41
  they didn't. But Norman Redlick was his name, was the guy in the
• 1:22:44
  Commission who said she was a liar and that she has to be brought back
• 1:22:47
  to, you know, fix all these holes in her story. Scott.
• 1:22:53
  To answer your question, where are the documents and tapes of this Marina surveillance?
• 1:22:57
  Uh? I wish we had the tapes, but we got the documents
• 1:23:00
  over locals. You can look at the James Herbert Martin show files and they're
• 1:23:08
  all in there for you to peruse. Yep. And yeah, beyond the
• 1:23:14
  people we've already mentioned, I can confirm that, oh yeah, they were
• 1:23:17
  monitoring her before. They certainly were minded her after because those agencies wanted her
• 1:23:25
  and I don't think she ever would have because I don't think it's true,
• 1:23:27
  but they wanted her to say the Russians did it, Cubans did it.
• 1:23:32
  They told Lee to do it because if they could get that that allows them
• 1:23:36
  to go and attack, you know, gives them all the reasoning they need.
• 1:23:44
  Jason ware the two Oswald daughters these days, Well, one I've heard
• 1:23:48
  is a was a successful real estate agent June and then she kind of dropped
• 1:23:55
  out of sight in the nineties after coming forward. And Rachel, I'm not
• 1:24:01
  sure. I know she was working at a bar in the early nineties waitressing,
• 1:24:08
  and after that she kind of dropped out of site. I'm sure they're
• 1:24:13
  using not their real names, but there are articles out there. There's a
• 1:24:18
  couple of videos on YouTube if you want to search them out. Interviews with
• 1:24:21
  June and Rachel for sure, and then Scott with the comment of the day.
• 1:24:28
  Perhaps the seven eleven connection is the big gulp. That's or whether she
• 1:24:33
  was definitely slurping James Herbert Martin O man, oh the LC but your worse
• 1:24:45
  than me when I joke to you privately. Well, and she's Marina as
• 1:24:51
  we know, is still around and here's back. You know, someone that
• 1:24:56
  I was in contact with was talking about if I wanted to ask her some
• 1:25:00
  questions, but she doesn't do interviews being paid. Yeah, so I'm not
• 1:25:08
  interested. If you don't have something to say for the historical record that's important.
• 1:25:13
  For free then good luck. Paid interviews, in my opinion, can't
• 1:25:16
  be trusted. There's a reason why they're saying what they're saying. They're getting
• 1:25:20
  paid. Yeah, exactly. And just to give a little tease here,
• 1:25:29
  I might have been texting with the son of a Martin that we have referred
• 1:25:36
  to in this episode and hope to gain some context and have him on the
• 1:25:44
  show in the future, possibly if we can twist his arm hard enough.
• 1:25:48
  Yes, I'm not going to say any more than that, but it would
• 1:25:54
  We've I've never seen it right, Put your nipple away, Joe, put
• 1:25:58
  stop teas and put your nipple. Okay, it would be interesting. So
• 1:26:02
  the point is we are the people that are trying to move this case forward.
• 1:26:09
  We are debunking myths, we are going off of documents, and we
• 1:26:15
  are serious researchers. And I'm so glad to have Carmine as a new friend,
• 1:26:21
  being on twice in a week and together. And yeah, I'll let
• 1:26:28
  you close it out wrong, Carmine, tell everybody where they can find you,
• 1:26:32
  and all your works are again in case they missed it the first time.
• 1:26:35
  You can find my work and research blog and updates at teapot dot com
• 1:26:42
  tpaa K dot com. I finally after a decade of people telling me to
• 1:26:47
  put up a donate button. So if you'd like, I'd appreciate it.
• 1:26:51
  But one of the things, if you look at my site, I don't
• 1:26:55
  use ads, I don't have a paywall. I want people to get to
• 1:26:59
  this information. So that's that's the way that we raise money. And that's
• 1:27:03
  the only way because I sponsors especially. I mean, could you imagine certain
• 1:27:10
  people like books, some of the bad books that come out. I just
• 1:27:13
  don't want to rely on that, So donations only, I don't, you
• 1:27:15
  know, I want to I want it to be I think that's why if
• 1:27:18
  what's kind of funny, you know, years ago you'd have never thought it,
• 1:27:20
  Rob, you know, when we first started out. But now when
• 1:27:24
  you type certain things or certain figures in the JFK case, your podcast and
• 1:27:28
  my website are usually in the top five Orsul's crazy. I know it's finally
• 1:27:34
  making some impact. Well, I was telling Joe, you know, it
• 1:27:40
  was like I went all these years, okay without having the words JFK or
• 1:27:50
  assassination in the title of my podcast, which is a dumb move ten years
• 1:27:57
  ago, you know what I'm saying. So unless you unless you go deeper,
• 1:28:02
  you know, like if you if you were to search JFK assassination podcasts,
• 1:28:06
  mine does not come up. Yeah, now it does because I've adjusted
• 1:28:13
  some things and I included on the spreaker feed and we had to manipulate the
• 1:28:19
  algorithm here a little bit and called it JFK Investigation. YouTube doesn't have a
• 1:28:24
  problem with that, but they do with the A word, So you know,
• 1:28:30
  it's Yeah, it's crazy when you Google something and you see the results
• 1:28:32
  pop up and you're like, hey, that's that's Carmine's a picture, and
• 1:28:39
  I also like that. Hopefully it's not just you know, those of us
• 1:28:42
  in the community, but the average member of the public that is coming across
• 1:28:45
  those and they actually get to see something. Hopefully we're saving them time.
• 1:28:47
  Hopefully they're not going to buy one of those nonsense books and they're gonna instead
• 1:28:53
  spend the money on, you know, maybe checking out a show like this,
• 1:28:56
  or joining the Mary Farrell Foundation, or doing some of their own research
• 1:29:00
  with documents. I mean, that's really what I hope for. I'm hoping
• 1:29:02
  eventually we'll have enough people looking at it to Finally we can collectively put enough
• 1:29:09
  of the pieces together that we can have, if not the final answer,
• 1:29:14
  the best answer, you know, with the best material and folks out there.
• 1:29:17
  If you just google JFK miss you you will find a lot of radio
• 1:29:25
  shows that we did many years ago, you know, busting all these miss
• 1:29:30
  and I'm sure Carmain has articles all over his website. You go to my
• 1:29:33
  author I have articles. But if you go to my author page, I
• 1:29:35
  actually have the JFK Myths collection. There you go, there's a page of
• 1:29:39
  sixteen episodes. The seventeenth of Me and Joe and Chuck and Mike is now
• 1:29:45
  at the top of my appearances. So yeah, So any questions you have
• 1:29:48
  about any questionable stories from people like James Files, Beverly Oliver, Judy Baker,
• 1:29:57
  people like this that have these great stories but no substance, uh,
• 1:30:01
  head over to CARMA's blog because he does an excellent job of laying it out
• 1:30:05
  and very easy to understand terms. And I'm so happy to have him back
• 1:30:10
  on the show. It's been far too long, Carmine. We must do
• 1:30:13
  it much much sooner than than than the last time. It's been a pleasure,
• 1:30:19
  you know, I love having you on. You're a great guy.
• 1:30:21
  Uh happy to call you a friend, and I deeply respect you as a
• 1:30:27
  researcher. And uh, I think you're one of the smartest ones out there.
• 1:30:30
  You have a good brain for for this stuff. And uh, yeah,
• 1:30:34
  well I appreciate you coming on the show again, my friend. Oh,
• 1:30:38
  I'm always happy to come back. Guys. It's it's always been a
• 1:30:40
  pleasure, rob And now getting to meet Joe and come back has been great.
• 1:30:45
  It's and and I hope people have found everything useful. And you know
• 1:30:46
  that. Check out the notes. Check out you know I I've always told
• 1:30:50
  people and back in the old shows, then today check out the files for
• 1:30:55
  yourself when we post them, when other people post them. If somebody doesn't
• 1:30:59
  want to give you at a there's a reason, it's probably not reliable.
• 1:31:04
  Amen. All right, Well, for Joe Borelli, Joey Scars, and
• 1:31:11
  Carmine Sabastano, thank you folks for stopping in for another live episode of The
• 1:31:16
  Lonegoming Podcast. It's been real. We've had our most live viewers ever here
• 1:31:20
  tonight, and it's because Carmi is here. Don't don't don't, don't kid
• 1:31:25
  yourself, folks, here's the man and we know it. Uh So,
• 1:31:30
  thank you folks for stopping by. Great interaction and uh follow the links down
• 1:31:35
  below for more intriguing commentary and information. We are out pop up peace