Latest / Karl and Crew / Living out a God Center life with David Szafranski, Unfolding the Middle East with Charlie Dyer, & Living Ready Dr. Wayne Grudem
Transcript
- 0:00S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond. It's Carl
- 0:06S1: and crew. Come as you are an experienced guide. Overcome
- 0:10S1: what seems impossible and live as you never imagined. Start
- 0:15S1: your morning with a laugh.
- 0:17S2: Practical from the Bible. Tips and tricks to kill. Not
- 0:21S2: tricks but tips and tricks.
- 0:25S3: Tips and tricks to kill. Tips and tricks.
- 0:28S1: Delivering the truth daily.
- 0:30S4: All of my attempts to, you know, prop myself up
- 0:33S4: with achievement in good works. Well, God wasn't impressed by that,
- 0:36S4: even if other people were.
- 0:38S2: The gospel changes everything.
- 0:41S5: Freedom in Christ. Man, it's like that backpack of cement
- 0:44S5: just falling to the ground.
- 0:46S1: Now from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl
- 0:50S1: and crew.
- 0:52S6: I just want to tell you what a joy. Over
- 0:54S6: the last couple of days, we've seen over a hundred
- 0:57S6: surrender their lives to Jesus and moving from Christian in
- 1:01S6: name only to truly being born again. And we're grateful
- 1:05S6: for you. You know, one of the things that I
- 1:07S6: love to do here is set people's mind at ease.
- 1:10S6: Those that are truly in Christ. And it's been awesome
- 1:15S6: because we're both talking about what it is to move
- 1:17S6: from Christian in name only to truly being born again.
- 1:21S6: I'm sure many have been in church for a lot
- 1:24S6: of years that are just now surrendering their lives to Christ.
- 1:27S6: But if you've ever struggled with assurance of salvation, none
- 1:31S6: of us have here. Oh. Excuse me. Um.
- 1:34S2: Huh.
- 1:35S3: Well.
- 1:37S6: It's an awesome thing to be able to look at
- 1:38S6: the word and go, oh, I do stand with God,
- 1:41S6: and he does stand with me. We want to help everyone,
- 1:45S6: don't we?
- 1:45S5: Super di always, always do. I mean, that's our heart.
- 1:48S5: That's why we were here. That's what we do. And
- 1:51S5: we'll do it until God says, okay, you're done. I mean, absolutely,
- 1:54S5: it's in his hands.
- 1:56S6: So we've got a resource for you. I just want
- 1:58S6: you to text the word stand right now if you
- 2:02S6: want to know. If you stand with God and He
- 2:04S6: stands with you. This is just Scripture put to a blog.
- 2:08S6: Just text the word stand to 805 five, five, 78, 98.
- 2:12S6: One word stand to 800 555 7898. I think this
- 2:18S6: will encourage you in a big way. Well, the topic
- 2:21S6: of end times has been a big one, hasn't it, guys?
- 2:24S3: This is so.
- 2:25S2: Important. I love I love all the different areas we've
- 2:27S2: been taking this talking about AI because that's something that's
- 2:31S2: come on so fast and that so little people really
- 2:33S2: understand fully. And then talking with our, our really big
- 2:38S2: Bible experts in Israel, experts looking at current events and
- 2:42S2: seeing how all that plays in. And then I also
- 2:45S2: love that we're bringing the gospel into this week and
- 2:48S2: making sure we're sharing that because how, how better to
- 2:51S2: talk about and be ready for the end times than
- 2:54S2: to be sharing the gospel.
- 2:56S6: Amen. Got that right. Well, coming up here in a moment,
- 2:58S6: one of our favorites around here, Doctor Charlie Dyer, you
- 3:01S6: probably hear him on land in the book. If you
- 3:04S6: don't tune in on Saturdays right here on this station
- 3:07S6: and many more. But Charlie Dyer, I'm going to pitch
- 3:10S6: him some fastballs with regard to end times. Buckle up.
- 3:13S6: Grab that swig of water. There it is, Charlie Dyer
- 3:17S6: coming up.
- 3:18S1: Take your next step with Jesus. Today you're listening to
- 3:22S1: Carl and Crew.
- 3:25S6: When you take a look at the Middle East, you
- 3:27S6: can't help but ask the question as many are. Man,
- 3:31S6: is the end drawing near. So I want to ask
- 3:33S6: you that doctor Charlie Dyer, who is with us right now,
- 3:36S6: served 33 years on the faculty here at Moody and
- 3:41S6: the administration for three different institutions. Man, Charlie, you can't
- 3:47S6: help but look at what's going on in Iran and
- 3:50S6: Israel and the rise of anti-Semitism. And you got to
- 3:54S6: see demonic activity behind a lot of this. And yet
- 3:58S6: it's the approaching hoof beats, it appears. AM I overstating it,
- 4:02S6: my friend? I mean, we've been hearing it since we
- 4:04S6: were kids. At the end is near. Is it nearer still?
- 4:08S7: Uh, it is near still. However. And here's what I
- 4:10S7: add to for a lot of people. Uh, just because
- 4:13S7: it's near doesn't mean that we're seeing the fulfillment of
- 4:16S7: prophecy right now. The next event is always God taking
- 4:19S7: his church away. He's setting the stage. And when the
- 4:22S7: church is gone, things are going to move rapidly. But
- 4:25S7: we're not yet seeing the fulfillment of some of those
- 4:27S7: Bible prophecies.
- 4:28S6: Okay, I want to jump into some deep weeds. I
- 4:31S6: don't want to talk about Gog and Magog. This is
- 4:33S6: the battle before the big battle. Where do you timeline
- 4:36S6: that battle? And then I want to talk about Iran's
- 4:39S6: participation in that potentially. Where do you see that happening?
- 4:43S7: I see it in the first part of this future
- 4:45S7: seven year tribulation period. It's a time when the Israel
- 4:48S7: said to be at peace in that passage in Ezekiel
- 4:52S7: 38 and 39. Uh, and this coalition is going to
- 4:55S7: try and attack Israel when they feel vulnerable. Well, right now,
- 4:58S7: Israel hasn't felt at peace since they've been a nation
- 5:00S7: in 1948. But it's easy to see how, uh, these
- 5:04S7: problems can be solved. And very quickly, Israel could seem
- 5:07S7: to come out of this in peace. Uh, so it
- 5:09S7: could be near. But it'll happen once Israel feels at peace.
- 5:13S6: The interesting thing about Iran is there's prophecies. Some say
- 5:17S6: that they were fulfilled already. Some say it's dual fulfillment.
- 5:21S6: Some say it's only future. Uh, with the upheaval in Iran,
- 5:26S6: would they be part of Gog and Magog in your
- 5:28S6: estimation or. No. Charlie.
- 5:30S7: Oh, absolutely. They are, in fact, in Ezekiel 38 and 39,
- 5:33S7: one of the allies with Gog and this coalition from
- 5:36S7: the north is Persia, which is Iran.
- 5:38S6: That's.
- 5:39S7: Iran. Yeah. So Iran has to be part of that
- 5:41S7: end time battle, but they're not the leader of it.
- 5:42S7: They're one of the follower nations coming along with Gog.
- 5:46S6: Yeah. So the fascinating thing about Iran is that it's
- 5:49S6: got a rapidly growing underground church. We talk with her
- 5:53S6: most chariot and Lana Silk about this, and it's. And
- 5:57S6: their experts on what God's doing in that church. It's
- 6:01S6: thrilling to see what God's doing. Are things lining up
- 6:05S6: at all within times? Clearly, Israel becoming a nation lines up.
- 6:10S6: People would have had a hard time piecing together prophecies
- 6:13S6: without Israel being back in the land. What do you say, Charlie?
- 6:17S7: I start with a checklist. Israel back in the land
- 6:19S7: is a crucial part of the end times. They play
- 6:22S7: the central role you watch for this coalition from the North.
- 6:25S7: And certainly we've seen Putin trying to expand. We see
- 6:28S7: Putin's influence with Iran right now growing. We see his
- 6:32S7: influence with Turkey, the influence of Russia in North Africa.
- 6:36S7: All of those are listed in Ezekiel 38 and 39
- 6:39S7: as nations that will be joining with Gog Magog in
- 6:43S7: that attack. You watch what's happening in Iran and you
- 6:46S7: see a nation that looked like it could try and
- 6:49S7: destroy Israel completely. With nuclear weapons now being set back,
- 6:52S7: that's not going to happen. And yet the leadership is
- 6:55S7: even more infuriated. They're more angry at Israel than they've
- 6:58S7: ever been. They'll easily join a coalition. All the pieces
- 7:02S7: that you see mentioned as end times events and and
- 7:06S7: players are, are taking their place on the stage. Now,
- 7:09S7: the curtain hasn't gone up, but it could soon.
- 7:11S6: Yeah, yeah. The interesting thing, I don't know that a
- 7:13S6: lot of people know this part of the story of Iran.
- 7:16S6: They've spent two decades building underground train systems that can
- 7:20S6: launch missiles from different points of exit. And without the
- 7:24S6: annihilation of that, you know, these countries and prophecy says this,
- 7:30S6: we're never going to throttle them to a point when
- 7:33S6: they say, no more, we're done. We want peace. That's
- 7:37S6: just not going to happen until the Prince of Peace comes.
- 7:40S6: Speak to that, Charlie.
- 7:41S7: You're absolutely right. In fact, most Americans don't understand the
- 7:44S7: Middle East, especially. They motivate on honor and shame. You honor.
- 7:49S7: And they'll they'll look at you. If you do something
- 7:51S7: to shame them, they will look. They will seek revenge.
- 7:54S7: And indeed, Israel has shamed Iran. Uh, by the attack
- 7:58S7: they've done. The United States has shamed Iran. Uh, it's
- 8:01S7: not that Iran's going to give up and say, well, okay,
- 8:03S7: we'll play nice. Now they're going to look for ways
- 8:05S7: to get back to seek revenge and and fighting one war.
- 8:09S7: You're just setting the stage for the next. And that's
- 8:11S7: just the reality in the Middle East. And it sets
- 8:13S7: the stage that God has said will take place. Jesus said,
- 8:16S7: there'll be wars and rumors of wars. And that's what
- 8:19S7: we seem to be having in this cycle over and
- 8:22S7: over again.
- 8:23S6: Yeah. And it seems to be increasing with intensity. How
- 8:26S6: do these Abraham Accords fit into this mix? These accords
- 8:30S6: have to fall apart at some time. Right, Charlie?
- 8:33S7: Uh, they will. You're exactly right. And I think we're
- 8:36S7: starting to see that as nice as they sound, all
- 8:39S7: of those Gulf nations are pygmies. When it comes to Iran.
- 8:42S7: Iran is the big enemy on the block. They're afraid
- 8:46S7: of Iran. They've seen what Iran can do. They're certainly
- 8:48S7: looking for ways to find protection, but they're afraid to
- 8:52S7: go to Israel because of the religious nature. They don't
- 8:55S7: want to be called having the Jewish state protecting Arabs
- 8:58S7: against Arabs or Arabs against other fellow Muslims. So they're
- 9:03S7: great for economics. But when a war comes along, we
- 9:06S7: saw how quickly that economics can fall apart and how
- 9:08S7: much they can be threatened.
- 9:10S6: Another below the surface thing explain the difference between Sunni
- 9:14S6: and Shia and why that is a divide at some level.
- 9:19S6: But when the end comes, that divide will be gone
- 9:21S6: and they'll be aligned against Israel. Explain that Charlie.
- 9:25S7: The Sunni Shia divide took place shortly after Muhammad's death,
- 9:28S7: and it started as a divide over who's going to
- 9:32S7: replace Muhammad. But it quickly developed into some theological differences.
- 9:35S7: And the way I explained it to some is think
- 9:37S7: between Protestant and Catholic, we come from the same, same root.
- 9:41S7: And yet there's been some incredible hatred along the way.
- 9:44S7: And that's what that's what you have between the Sunnis
- 9:46S7: and the Shiites. Now, beyond that, uh, you're right though.
- 9:50S7: The enemy of my enemy is now my ally. Uh, so, uh,
- 9:54S7: as I look at it, the Sunnis and Shiites will
- 9:56S7: be drawn together if facing a common enemy. And, of course,
- 9:59S7: Israel's the common enemy in that part of the world.
- 10:02S6: Coming up, Doctor Charlie Dyer, our guest right now, we're
- 10:05S6: talking end times. And I think one of the questions
- 10:09S6: that a lot of pastors struggle with is how do
- 10:12S6: we prepare people that see a lot of the inflamed, uh,
- 10:18S6: geopolitical map that we currently witness? How do we prepare
- 10:22S6: people for that? How do we keep an eye on
- 10:24S6: Israel and not lose our minds in the process? More
- 10:29S6: with Doctor Charlie Dyer straight ahead.
- 10:31S1: Your shot of hope to get you through the day.
- 10:34S5: You are so, so loved. God does not want you
- 10:37S5: to stay in your past. And I want you to
- 10:39S5: know and believe that today.
- 10:41S1: You're listening to Carl and Crew.
- 10:44S6: We're talking in times this whole week, boom crew. And
- 10:46S6: with me right now is a dear man, dear man
- 10:49S6: of God. To Doctor Charlie, dear boy, I appreciate your
- 10:52S6: love for Jesus. And we got to get our feet
- 10:54S6: on the rock if we're not going to lose our
- 10:55S6: minds in what's happening in the Middle East right now. Right, Charlie?
- 10:59S7: Oh, you're absolutely right, Carl.
- 11:00S6: Yeah. How do we do that? And I think, how
- 11:02S6: do we balance keeping an eye on what's going on
- 11:05S6: in the Middle East? Uh, even seeing what's going on
- 11:08S6: with Iran and all that flux that is going on.
- 11:12S6: How do we balance hearing the news and walking with Jesus?
- 11:17S7: Uh, I'll give you two scripture passages that to me
- 11:20S7: are the foundation for it all. One, I start with
- 11:22S7: Jesus in Matthew 24. You know, he talked about the
- 11:24S7: end times, and he starts by saying, watch out that
- 11:27S7: no one deceives you. Many will come saying, I'm the
- 11:30S7: Christ to deceive many, many prophets will appear to deceive many.
- 11:33S7: And the word that keeps appearing there is deceive. And
- 11:35S7: what he finally says at the very end he said,
- 11:37S7: he says, if possible, they could even deceive the elect,
- 11:40S7: the believers. And he says, if that were possible. And
- 11:43S7: he says, see, I told you this ahead of time.
- 11:45S7: How do we keep from being deceived, from being sucked in,
- 11:47S7: from being taken out? It's going where Jesus told us
- 11:50S7: to go. And that's remember what he said. Remember what
- 11:52S7: the Bible says about the future. And then Paul says
- 11:54S7: the same thing. Paul wrote to the Thessalonians and said,
- 11:57S7: you know, there was some prophecy report letters saying, we're
- 11:59S7: in the day of the Lord. You know, the fake
- 12:01S7: news was around in the time of Paul. And he says,
- 12:04S7: don't you remember when I was with you, I used
- 12:06S7: to tell you these things. He basically says, go back
- 12:08S7: and remember what I focused on when I taught you
- 12:10S7: the Word of God. And so how do we keep
- 12:12S7: from being worried, from being sucked out in in all
- 12:14S7: sorts of directions? Get back to the Bible. Get back
- 12:17S7: to what Jesus said, what Paul said. And the more
- 12:20S7: we know that, the more we can evaluate what's happening
- 12:22S7: and not be pulled apart and and stressed beyond our ability.
- 12:27S6: You know, when we think about end times, I'm shocked.
- 12:31S6: A couple of things come to mind. One is we
- 12:33S6: don't appear to be a superpower or we've become a
- 12:36S6: superpower that is very dovish or anti-Israel at the end
- 12:40S6: of time as a nation. Is that fair to say?
- 12:43S7: It is. Zechariah says all the nations are going to
- 12:45S7: be against Israel as the end times approach. Okay, right
- 12:48S7: now the only one in Israel's corner is the US. And, uh,
- 12:51S7: we're one election away from from not doing that.
- 12:54S6: Yeah. And, and there's some polling out that is troubling
- 12:58S6: big time troubling in our lifetime. Charlie. We have never
- 13:00S6: seen Palestine have one tick point higher of sympathy than Israel.
- 13:04S6: But we are there today.
- 13:06S7: What are.
- 13:06S6: Yeah. What's going on here, Charlie? And it's I I've
- 13:10S6: been talking to Michael Riedel about this. This feels demonic
- 13:13S6: at its core.
- 13:14S7: It is. In fact, it's interesting in both Jesus and
- 13:17S7: Paul's words, they mention Satan. Satan hates the Jewish people.
- 13:21S7: Satan's goal is to get the nations to hate the
- 13:23S7: Jewish people. And to the extent that we as a
- 13:26S7: country and the world has moved away from God's values,
- 13:29S7: God's sense of what's right and wrong, we've opened ourselves
- 13:32S7: up to the deception that Satan brings in now, the
- 13:35S7: solution always ends up being the Word of God. The
- 13:38S7: more people know the Word of God, the more they
- 13:40S7: can stand up and offer God's answers to Satan's delusions
- 13:43S7: and deceptions.
- 13:44S6: You know the interesting thing about replacement theologians who are
- 13:48S6: our brothers and sisters in Christ? For sure, they don't
- 13:51S6: go as far as to totally denounce Israel, but we've
- 13:57S6: got a woke right and a woke left, both sides
- 14:00S6: of this. We're seeing this rise of anti-Semitism almost spiritualizing
- 14:05S6: our disdain for Israel as a nation. How do you
- 14:09S6: look at Scripture and say, no, God still blesses those
- 14:13S6: who bless you and curses those who curse you? Some
- 14:17S6: look at the context of that passage and say, ah,
- 14:20S6: that's that's Abraham. We're in a new covenant. How do
- 14:24S6: you dispel some of that? Whether you're covenant theologian or dispensational,
- 14:29S6: how do we dispel that and hold on to support
- 14:32S6: for Israel.
- 14:33S7: We go to the one passage in the New Testament
- 14:35S7: where Paul says, let me tell you how the Church
- 14:37S7: and Israel relate. Romans 910 and 11. And in Romans 11,
- 14:41S7: Paul comes out clearly and says, God's gifts and his promises,
- 14:44S7: and he's talking about the ones he made to Israel
- 14:46S7: are irrevocable. Well, if Paul said that to the church,
- 14:50S7: that's our marching orders for the church. And he's saying,
- 14:53S7: in essence, what God promised to Israel in the Old
- 14:55S7: Testament is still God's promise, which we should hold to.
- 14:58S7: By the way, because if God can change his mind
- 15:01S7: when it comes to Israel, then he can change his
- 15:03S7: mind when it comes to us. And we don't want
- 15:05S7: to get to heaven and have God say, well, you know,
- 15:07S7: I said that I'd save you, but I changed my mind.
- 15:10S7: You know, God's not a God who changes his mind.
- 15:13S7: He's not a man that he should repent. Neither the
- 15:14S7: Son of Man that he would do that. So God
- 15:17S7: doesn't change his mind. He didn't for Israel. He doesn't
- 15:20S7: for us. And frankly, that's a a blessing for us.
- 15:23S6: You know, one of the prophecies is that all peoples
- 15:27S6: will hear and then the end will come. There's a
- 15:29S6: notion in which that we have for years struggled with.
- 15:32S6: I think most recent count was still several hundred languages
- 15:37S6: that hadn't had the gospel proclaimed in in their heart language. Now,
- 15:42S6: with the advent of AI that is moving, Charlie, I mean,
- 15:46S6: it is moving. Do we find this this speed of knowledge?
- 15:51S6: And by the way, that's often taken out of context.
- 15:54S6: The knowledge that will increase is a knowledge of God,
- 15:56S6: not mere knowledge. But what do we see that's happening
- 16:00S6: that causes you to get your heart ticking a little faster?
- 16:03S7: Well, that's one of the positives. I think for for AI,
- 16:06S7: it has a lot of limitations, has a lot of
- 16:08S7: deception connected with it, but it's also being used to
- 16:11S7: be able to communicate more rapidly. And indeed, the ability
- 16:14S7: to share a message with a group that we don't
- 16:17S7: know and can't communicate with otherwise is now something that's
- 16:20S7: in the last ten years taken off. So there's so
- 16:24S7: much going on. Now, I do believe that in the
- 16:26S7: end times, God will also So supernaturally raise up individuals
- 16:30S7: around the world to communicate his word. So between that
- 16:33S7: and AI, we're seeing the gospel go out. And what
- 16:36S7: Jesus said indeed is going to happen. They're all going
- 16:38S7: to have a chance to hear before Jesus returns.
- 16:41S6: Love it. Doctor Charlie Dyer, thank you so much, guys.
- 16:44S6: I want you to get there's so many of you
- 16:47S6: listening right now that you have not had a chance
- 16:50S6: to listen to the land in the book radio program,
- 16:54S6: heard on your station, and many more across North America
- 16:59S6: and beyond. I want you to text the word land. Yeah,
- 17:03S6: you've heard his voice and now you can hear it
- 17:05S6: more consistently every week. Text land to 800 555 7898.
- 17:12S6: Just the word land to 800 555 7898.
- 17:17S1: Your shot of hope to help you through the day.
- 17:20S1: This is Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
- 17:24S6: All right. A little disclaimer at the bottom of the hour,
- 17:27S6: we got an oops. Uh oh. But it's explainable and
- 17:32S6: we can't sub for. But Ali's gone today, and I'm sorry.
- 17:37S8: Oh, man.
- 17:38S5: So that means she's okay?
- 17:40S6: Yeah. And you're not going to be okay. You're going
- 17:42S6: to have the shakes. You're going to have the shakes
- 17:45S6: and stuff like that. But we will have jokes next week.
- 17:50S6: It's a sad day.
- 17:51S2: There is a sad day.
- 17:53S6: No jokes today, man.
- 17:56S2: Do you think we'll make it?
- 17:57S6: We're going to get by with a little help from
- 18:00S6: our friends. You come off a segment like that with
- 18:04S6: Doctor Charlie Dyer and you go, I got some thinking
- 18:08S6: to do. I got some reading to do. Right, guys?
- 18:11S2: Oh, goodness. Yeah.
- 18:12S5: I'm sorry I was reading sorry.
- 18:14S2: I like having these experts on because yeah, some reading
- 18:18S2: needs to be done, but it's great to have some
- 18:20S2: people who can flesh it out for us with, with
- 18:22S2: what they know and their experience helping us kind of
- 18:25S2: start our journey to.
- 18:26S5: Understand it in a way. You know, explain it in
- 18:28S5: a way we can get it.
- 18:29S2: I need that.
- 18:30S6: Yeah. End times can be sticky. It can be confusing.
- 18:35S6: But even the book of revelation is the one book
- 18:37S6: that has a blessing attached to it for those who
- 18:40S6: read and apply his word. So keep your nose in it.
- 18:44S6: Don't be afraid of it. Speaking of keeping your nose
- 18:46S6: in it, not afraid of it. We got a fearless
- 18:48S6: man coming up here. I love this guy. Doctor Wayne Grudem.
- 18:52S6: He's written an amazing theology. He's the general editor of
- 18:56S6: the ESV Bible, including the study Bible. He's an amazing
- 19:01S6: man of God, and God has used him mightily, not
- 19:04S6: only in my life personally as a friend, but as
- 19:08S6: a great theologian and a great thinker. You know, one
- 19:11S6: of the things that we want to do here with
- 19:13S6: Carl and Crew is give you a different perspectives on
- 19:15S6: end times, and you might hear something different come from
- 19:18S6: Wayne Grudem. I don't know that for sure. But when
- 19:21S6: we bring them in, I'm going to pitch him questions
- 19:23S6: that will give his biblical perspective from years of study.
- 19:28S6: And I want you to be a Berean. What's a
- 19:31S6: Berean do? Young Thunder?
- 19:33S2: They take what was told to them and they hold
- 19:36S2: it up to the word and say, how can I
- 19:39S2: tell if this is true? Well, let's look at what
- 19:40S2: God says about it. And then, you know, being investigative.
- 19:44S6: Yeah, it's a good word. We love you guys in
- 19:48S6: times all week long. Coming up straight ahead. Doctor Wayne
- 19:51S6: Grudem with us.
- 19:53S1: Get your info from a source you can trust. It's
- 19:56S1: Ask the experts week with Carl and crew.
- 19:59S6: We've got an amazing man of God coming up here
- 20:02S6: in just a moment. Doctor Wayne Grudem. He's struggled with
- 20:05S6: Parkinson's for over a decade and he's got some other
- 20:08S6: health complications. But God is using him mightily. Still, lend
- 20:13S6: an ear to what you're about to hear with Doctor
- 20:15S6: Wayne Grudem.
- 20:17S1: Get in the know with life's biggest questions. It's ask
- 20:20S1: the experts week with Carl and crew.
- 20:23S6: Our topic this week is End Times, and we've had
- 20:27S6: a just a tremendous raft of theologians. Pastors come in
- 20:32S6: and today is like that, maybe even better. Doctor Wayne Grudem,
- 20:37S6: he's a distinguished research professor emeritus of theology and biblical
- 20:41S6: studies at Phoenix Seminary in Arizona. And by the way,
- 20:44S6: if you have an English Standard version, you need to
- 20:47S6: know he was central in this translation oversight committee and
- 20:51S6: was the general editor of the ESV Study Bible. He's
- 20:55S6: the author of more than 30 books. His bestseller, Systematic
- 20:59S6: Theology is over my left shoulder, within reach of my
- 21:02S6: left arm right now. And he is a great man
- 21:05S6: of God. Wayne, good to have you with me this morning.
- 21:08S9: Thank you. Carl. Good to be with you.
- 21:10S6: Well, we're talking in times and there's so many places
- 21:13S6: we can wade in. I want to look at a
- 21:15S6: general landscape of what you see happening in our world today.
- 21:19S6: this radical rise of anti-Semitism, the conflict in Iran, it
- 21:24S6: just face value. Looking through the lens of theology. What
- 21:28S6: are you seeing unfolding here, Wayne?
- 21:31S9: Well, there are signs that Christ could return at any time.
- 21:36S9: Jesus said, when you see these things taking place, the
- 21:39S9: things that he predicted in Matthew 24 know that he
- 21:41S9: is near at the very gates. So I think when
- 21:44S9: people today say, we hear of earthquakes and wars and
- 21:48S9: great suffering of Christians in some countries, it could be
- 21:51S9: that Christ is coming soon. And yet I also see
- 21:55S9: signs of revival. Uh, great growth in Christian book publishing,
- 21:59S9: incredible outflowing of Bible believing Christian books and, um, just
- 22:05S9: among acquaintances, people who haven't been Christians in their whole lives,
- 22:09S9: haven't gone in the door of a church, feel compelled
- 22:12S9: to go to church and visit, and they become Christians,
- 22:14S9: a number of friends to whom that has happened recently
- 22:17S9: and God is doing something to bring about greater attendance
- 22:20S9: at Bible believing churches. So there may be signs of
- 22:23S9: revival starting that God is going to bring yet before
- 22:26S9: the return of Christ. And I'm excited about that.
- 22:29S6: I'm thrilled with you, Doctor Wayne Grudem my guest right now, Wayne,
- 22:33S6: when we look at the the word remnant, I think
- 22:36S6: sometimes we can think remnant means weak, but the remnant
- 22:41S6: has always been strong, even though we are not the majority.
- 22:45S6: And that's clearly the case today. A statistic from George
- 22:48S6: Barna that says 4% of North American Christians have a
- 22:52S6: Christian worldview and intend to order their private and public
- 22:56S6: lives around it. But the remnant, I think we've interpreted it, oh, boy,
- 23:00S6: we're going to be weak. We're going to have a
- 23:02S6: bunker mentality. But the remnant has always been strong, has
- 23:05S6: it not? Wayne.
- 23:07S9: I agree with you. I don't think we've seen the
- 23:10S9: release yet of the amazing power of the Holy Spirit
- 23:13S9: to bring about change in people's hearts and to bring
- 23:16S9: them from sin and rebellion against God into submission to
- 23:20S9: him and trusting in Christ as their Savior. With working
- 23:23S9: of miracles and the incredible power of God's Word to
- 23:27S9: change people's hearts, we see a measure of that, but
- 23:31S9: not yet the fullness of what could come about. If
- 23:34S9: the Holy Spirit is pleased to release the fullness of
- 23:37S9: his power in our preaching and in our prayers.
- 23:40S6: As we see the end approaching, Wayne, what can we
- 23:43S6: do as genuinely transformed children of God to invite the
- 23:49S6: power of the spirit to manifest his presence among us
- 23:54S6: more and more? What can we do?
- 23:56S9: Oh boy. Carl, what a question. Isn't that what's on
- 24:00S9: our on our hearts each day? So I've been convinced
- 24:04S9: lately in my own life that it's a question of
- 24:06S9: believing what God's Word says about the power of the
- 24:10S9: Holy Spirit to change people's lives. The power of Jesus
- 24:13S9: to answer prayer. We sometimes become so accustomed to living
- 24:17S9: in this world without thinking very much of Christ's presence
- 24:20S9: in us and his power working through us. But we
- 24:23S9: could do more of that. And I think we need
- 24:27S9: God's power and persuasive work in our hearts to be
- 24:30S9: able to trust him more. Because so much of answers
- 24:33S9: to prayer depends on our faith.
- 24:36S6: Wayne, one of the things that the Lord's done in
- 24:38S6: me since years ago when I first met you, and
- 24:40S6: I think it's been building over the last 5 to
- 24:42S6: 8 years, I almost get choked up thinking about it.
- 24:45S6: I'm reminded of Andrew Murray, who says in his book humility.
- 24:49S6: Humility is the one virtue that gives birth to every
- 24:51S6: other virtue. Boy, the Lord's been really working on me
- 24:54S6: in that. The amazing thing about humility versus pride, it's
- 24:58S6: a choice that we can make every day. It's not
- 25:01S6: a spiritual gift. It's a choice that we can make.
- 25:03S6: How central is humility to the working of the spirit?
- 25:10S9: Carl, let me tell you something remarkable. Margaret and I
- 25:13S9: are in a small group that meets every other week
- 25:15S9: and Sunday afternoon to read the Bible together and pray together.
- 25:18S9: Sing together. And for the last month, we've been working
- 25:23S9: through the book by Andrew Murray called humility. Just the
- 25:26S9: exact book that you mentioned. Yeah, it's convicting to all
- 25:30S9: of us because he says that we have to give
- 25:33S9: up a sense of reliance on ourselves and admit to
- 25:36S9: Christ that there's nothing in us to be able to
- 25:38S9: bring about the results of the kingdom that we want.
- 25:41S9: And yet we have to yield ourselves to Christ and
- 25:45S9: tell him that it's all by his power, and not
- 25:47S9: by any of our merit, that we can see the
- 25:50S9: kingdom advanced and the kingdom built up, and people come
- 25:52S9: to Christ and grow in him.
- 25:54S6: That's beautiful. Wayne Grudem, my guest. Wayne, I want to
- 25:57S6: jump right into some end times. You have a different
- 26:00S6: view from some theologians, and I don't think this in
- 26:03S6: any way breaks fellowship between what we classically know as
- 26:07S6: dispensational theology versus covenant theology. Explain what your take is
- 26:13S6: on the tribulation and whether or not saints of God
- 26:17S6: will even go through that.
- 26:20S9: Jesus predicts a great tribulation, a period of suffering that
- 26:23S9: in which many will fall away. And we've called that
- 26:26S9: the Great tribulation that is yet to come. I think
- 26:28S9: it is yet coming to the earth. Carl, I don't
- 26:31S9: think we've seen yet the extent of the suffering that
- 26:34S9: Jesus predicts, but I'm not sure that I'm right. If
- 26:38S9: Jesus would return today, which I believe he could, you
- 26:41S9: and I might say, well, wait a minute. We didn't
- 26:43S9: go through the tribulation. Well, we haven't we haven't suffered
- 26:46S9: that way. But the Christians in North Korea, in Iran,
- 26:50S9: in China, in a number of Muslim dominated nations in Africa,
- 26:55S9: if we say to them, the tribulation hasn't yet occurred,
- 26:58S9: they say, what do you mean?
- 26:59S6: You're right about that. You're right.
- 27:01S9: We're going through it. We've been living through it for
- 27:03S9: the last 15 years, 20 years.
- 27:05S6: You know, one of the questions about the tribulation is wrath.
- 27:09S6: And the interesting thing is that God has spared saints
- 27:12S6: from wrath. At least two occasions that I can think of.
- 27:15S6: I think of Noah and I think of lot. So
- 27:18S6: it's not beyond God to spare saints the wrath of God,
- 27:22S6: even in the midst of it being inflicted on a
- 27:25S6: broader whole of people. Any thoughts on that, Wayne?
- 27:29S9: Well, I think you're right. We don't have to think
- 27:30S9: that every single Christian in every nation of the world
- 27:33S9: will go through the same amount of suffering and tribulation,
- 27:36S9: but many will. And, uh, if it happens to be us,
- 27:42S9: then we have to trust God that he will sustain
- 27:44S9: us through the difficult times. And I think, be even
- 27:47S9: closer to us in our knowledge of his presence in
- 27:50S9: our hearts and his presence with us in our circumstances.
- 27:53S6: When we think of end times, you've studied the scriptures
- 27:57S6: so thoroughly, and one of the things that I appreciate
- 27:59S6: about your theology is that you present usually more than
- 28:03S6: just two sides of an issue, often oftentimes 3 or
- 28:06S6: 4 different positions on any given text. And I love
- 28:09S6: that about you. But when you look at the battle
- 28:13S6: of Gog and Magog, for instance, that's going to be
- 28:16S6: the great battle before Armageddon. Where do you put that
- 28:19S6: on your timeline? And is there anything currently going on
- 28:23S6: in the Middle East that causes you to say, boy,
- 28:26S6: the end could be near?
- 28:30S9: It's been several years since I've looked at the Gog
- 28:32S9: and Magog passages, but it is interesting that some of
- 28:36S9: the forces come from the north of Israel. And I
- 28:38S9: looked at a world map once and looked at Jerusalem
- 28:41S9: and traced the globe north from Jerusalem. It goes through
- 28:46S9: a lot of unpopulated areas. The first major city you
- 28:50S9: come to, going directly north from Jerusalem is Moscow. And
- 28:53S9: so I am wondering if yet the evil rulers of
- 28:58S9: Russia will not have a role in the forces of
- 29:02S9: evil gathered against God's people. I don't know about that,
- 29:05S9: but it's interesting to speculate. Yeah, I think all of
- 29:08S9: these things, Carl, they should cause us to think, wow,
- 29:12S9: Jesus could return. I believe he could return today. And, uh,
- 29:16S9: a couple of times in my life, I have been
- 29:19S9: awakened in the middle of the night with a loud
- 29:20S9: thunderclap where I thought, Is Jesus coming back right now?
- 29:23S9: And it wasn't true, but that expectation should be in
- 29:27S9: all of our hearts and minds.
- 29:28S6: Yes, speak to that expectation because I think a lot
- 29:31S6: of people look at what's going on in Iran, and
- 29:34S6: we see stock markets that are have a lot of fear.
- 29:38S6: There's a fear index for stocks that is peaked right now. There's, um,
- 29:44S6: a lot of uncertainty for a disciple of Christ. Wayne,
- 29:50S6: isn't this a moment of expectation rather than fear?
- 29:54S9: Yes. And I think I'd like it to be a
- 29:56S9: moment of obedience rather than panic, obedience and trust. Reading
- 30:01S9: Scripture and seeing its ministry to calm our hearts and, um,
- 30:04S9: making sure that the responsibilities that God has given us
- 30:08S9: in our ministry to friends, neighbors, family members, church, that
- 30:13S9: we're being faithful to him so that when he comes,
- 30:15S9: we won't be embarrassed. But the things that have needed
- 30:19S9: to be taken care of, the broken relationships that have
- 30:22S9: been mended, the wrongs that we've done to others we've
- 30:25S9: asked forgiveness for so that we will not be ashamed
- 30:28S9: but rejoice at his coming.
- 30:30S6: Wayne, give us your thoughts about AI and end times.
- 30:34S6: What has God got in your mind today?
- 30:37S9: Well, Carl, last night I went to ChatGPT and asked
- 30:41S9: this question. What would Wayne Grudem say about the role
- 30:44S9: of artificial intelligence in the End times?
- 30:48S6: What did he what did they tell you? Wayne would say.
- 30:51S9: In 10s I got back three printed pages that says
- 30:54S9: Wayne Grudem has not written any major published work, especially
- 30:57S9: about artificial intelligence in the end times. so there's no
- 31:00S9: direct answer. But based on his theology and his published writings,
- 31:04S9: here's an estimate of what he would say. And it
- 31:07S9: was remarkably accurate. This is something I have not written
- 31:10S9: anything about. And it said God generally sees technology as
- 31:13S9: morally neutral. That's right, I do. Can be used for
- 31:16S9: good or for evil. He believes the end times will
- 31:18S9: involve increased global power and deception. That's true, I do.
- 31:23S9: I look for a future Antichrist, not look for eagerly,
- 31:25S9: but expect a future Antichrist and global political authority and
- 31:29S9: widespread deception and persecution of believers. That's true. And then
- 31:33S9: it said he would likely stress human responsibility, not technological determinism. Yes,
- 31:38S9: it's our choices for good and evil. And then it
- 31:40S9: gives a summary of my teaching, of my future view
- 31:44S9: that I have not said anything about publicly. This is
- 31:47S9: what they say Gruden would say. The Bible does not
- 31:49S9: tell us what technology will exist in the last days,
- 31:52S9: but it does tell us that there will be increasing
- 31:54S9: deception and centralized power. Artificial intelligence could be used for
- 31:59S9: either good or evil purposes, depending on the moral choices
- 32:01S9: of human beings. Christians should not assume that new technologies
- 32:04S9: are in themselves signs of the end, but they should
- 32:07S9: be aware that any powerful technology could be used in
- 32:10S9: ways that oppose God's purposes. Carl. That's what I would say.
- 32:15S6: To accurately pin down Doctor Wayne Grudem.
- 32:20S9: And something I have not said anything about, but predicted
- 32:23S9: what I would think in 10s it did that.
- 32:27S6: Wayne Grudem is my guest right now. Doctor Wayne Grudem,
- 32:30S6: and he's been an amazing contributor for a number of years.
- 32:36S6: To Disciples of Christ, walking forward in the power of
- 32:39S6: the spirit. Wayne, I want to give you a final
- 32:43S6: word here with regard to end times. Uh, you've walked
- 32:47S6: with Jesus for a number of years. You've stumbled. You've
- 32:50S6: got some sacred scars, I'm sure, to prove that you
- 32:53S6: are anything but perfect. But what would your appeal be
- 32:57S6: to those listening today as they see the end drawing
- 33:01S6: what appears to be nearer still? What's on your heart, Wayne?
- 33:05S9: Well, I think I would encourage believers who are listening
- 33:08S9: to this broadcast to be sure you walk with the
- 33:11S9: Lord is firm and regular and strong, that you're taking
- 33:15S9: time for reading His word and prayer each day. That
- 33:20S9: when he is stirring up your conscience regarding something that
- 33:24S9: isn't quite right in your life, that you'll listen and
- 33:26S9: not brush it aside. That you ask forgiveness for any
- 33:30S9: known sin. When you sense his call to you to
- 33:34S9: visit a friend, to make a phone call, to send
- 33:36S9: an email that you obey his prompting and stay in
- 33:40S9: fellowship with other believers in times of worship and times
- 33:44S9: of prayer. It's just a matter of living the Christian life.
- 33:47S9: No special secret for even theology professors. It's. It's just
- 33:53S9: get up in the morning and read his word and
- 33:55S9: pray and then go through the day. I think we
- 33:57S9: all could grow in sensitivity to the leading of the
- 34:00S9: Holy Spirit in our daily lives, and in boldness in
- 34:04S9: initiating conversations where we can talk about Jesus with the
- 34:07S9: people we're in contact with.
- 34:09S6: You know, it's interesting, the older I get Wayne, the
- 34:12S6: more it's the small, simple things that give me great
- 34:15S6: joy in the Lord with him. I rise early now
- 34:19S6: in the mornings, and I pray the last two verses
- 34:21S6: of Psalm 139 every morning search me, O God, and
- 34:25S6: know my heart. Try me and know my ways. See
- 34:27S6: if there'd be any hurtful way in me. And lead
- 34:31S6: me in the way everlasting. You know, Wayne, it's that
- 34:34S6: little cup of coffee with God that is so rich
- 34:38S6: for me now. What do you find? Riches of Christ
- 34:42S6: Jesus in in the little things right now? What gives
- 34:45S6: you and Margaret your bride of, oh, a number of
- 34:48S6: years now, what gives you great joy?
- 34:51S9: You know, it's It's watching grandchildren learn Bible verses, watching
- 34:56S9: our son and daughter in law discipline their grandchildren and
- 35:00S9: teach them. And watching them grow in their imitation of
- 35:04S9: the attributes of God, even though they're not aware that
- 35:07S9: they're doing that. Just seeing that unfold in our grandchildren's lives.
- 35:11S6: It's tremendous. Doctor Wayne Grudem has been our guest this morning,
- 35:14S6: and I want you to know that not only has
- 35:18S6: he left 30 books, not least of which is systematic theology.
- 35:22S6: And if you're looking for a good theology that represents
- 35:26S6: a lot of different positions on myriad central passages, you
- 35:30S6: want to grab systematic theology. It's a great gift. And
- 35:34S6: I have a landing page for you. All you have
- 35:37S6: to do is text the word Wayne to (800) 555-7898. We've
- 35:42S6: got a website there with all these resources and more.
- 35:45S6: Text the word Wayne to 805 Five 7898 waned to
- 35:53S6: 800 555 7898.
- 35:58S1: It's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
- 36:02S6: And look it up. Didn't know this one.
- 36:05S2: What'd you have to look up?
- 36:06S3: Yeah.
- 36:06S6: What was Jesus doing 2000 years ago this week? I'd forgotten.
- 36:12S6: Healing of Bartimaeus was one that really ensconced his claim
- 36:17S6: to Messiahship. But he was traveling toward Jerusalem. He was
- 36:21S6: going to his.
- 36:21S3: Death.
- 36:22S2: On the.
- 36:22S6: Way. Yeah. And this time he was he was predicting
- 36:27S6: that he was going to die, and he was laying
- 36:29S6: it out for the disciples. But my goodness, I know
- 36:36S6: fully God and fully man. But when you're walking to
- 36:40S6: the city, that's going to kill you. I'm sorry, man.
- 36:46S2: It's it's pretty crazy when you think about it that way,
- 36:51S2: because no one made him go to the city. You know,
- 36:55S2: it's not like he was being led there. I mean,
- 36:58S2: he was being led there by the Holy Spirit, obviously.
- 37:00S6: But then he asks the father if you could take
- 37:02S6: this gig from me.
- 37:04S2: Yeah, absolutely. But he had to make a journey to
- 37:08S2: Jerusalem the whole time, knowing exactly what's going to happen
- 37:10S2: when he gets there.
- 37:11S6: Yeah he did.
- 37:13S2: It's a hard thing to sign up for.
- 37:14S6: So it's it's really interesting this time of year is
- 37:18S6: when everybody shuffles the deck. This is it, man.
- 37:22S3: Shuffles the deck.
- 37:23S6: Oh, yeah. Cars. Cars get sold. Cars get upgraded. Homes
- 37:28S6: go on the market.
- 37:29S3: Oh, okay.
- 37:30S6: Inventory rises, inventory declines. People are fired up because they're like, wow,
- 37:37S6: this is great. I can sell my home for this.
- 37:41S6: And then they realize to buy another one, it costs that.
- 37:45S3: Uh oh.
- 37:45S6: They all went up, Not just mine.
- 37:47S2: It's a bummer that way.
- 37:49S6: Isn't it funny? Mark gets an interesting thing. You know, it's.
- 37:53S6: We're talking a lot here about end times. I mean,
- 37:57S6: we're going after it today, aren't we? I'm talking. Going after.
- 38:01S3: It. Yeah. This is a.
- 38:02S6: Great journey in Wayne.
- 38:03S3: Oh, yeah. The door.
- 38:06S6: But you know, as we think about the end, there's
- 38:14S6: a lot of questions that we have for sure. But
- 38:19S6: one of them ought to be. Not what am I
- 38:24S6: going to do? But why am I going to do that?
- 38:26S6: Let me explain what I mean. And by the way,
- 38:29S6: I'm big on this Y thing. Ever since I saw
- 38:33S6: Simon Sinek in his Ted talk. I'm like, oh boy,
- 38:37S6: that's the best thing ever. It's not the how. It's
- 38:40S6: not the what. It's the why that people are buying.
- 38:43S6: That's his contention in that incredible Ted talk that I
- 38:46S6: don't know, has, I don't know, 40 million or way
- 38:49S6: more than that views. And it's, um, it's interesting because
- 38:54S6: if you can't answer the why, why go after the
- 38:56S6: what and the how? See, part of the reason that
- 38:59S6: we've got a lot of kids that have left the
- 39:01S6: church is they were told the what and the how,
- 39:03S6: but they were never told the why or if they were,
- 39:06S6: it wasn't really explained.
- 39:07S3: Sure.
- 39:08S6: You know what I mean guys?
- 39:09S5: Yeah, that was me. I was like, okay.
- 39:10S2: Just go and do it. Don't ask questions.
- 39:12S5: I sat there on the end table, but we didn't
- 39:14S5: open it.
- 39:15S3: Right.
- 39:16S6: And, and you know, the problem is, and by the way,
- 39:21S6: don't beat yourself up parents because you're like, yeah, I
- 39:23S6: told them, this is how we go. This is what
- 39:26S6: we do. This is. But a lot of people have
- 39:30S6: neglected to talk about the why. So don't beat yourself
- 39:32S6: up about that. But a lot of kids walked away
- 39:36S6: from the church because the why wasn't compelling or they
- 39:39S6: never heard it. And when all you do is because
- 39:43S6: of the what and the how. That ain't going to
- 39:45S6: cut it.
- 39:47S2: It doesn't have staying power. If it does start that way, it'll.
- 39:50S2: I mean, it it peters out.
- 39:51S6: Yeah it does. So in this next few minutes, I
- 39:56S6: want to answer a question. How do I make decisions
- 40:04S6: with my life that are going to guide where I live?
- 40:11S6: What kind of house I buy? What kind of job
- 40:15S6: I take when I leave a job. I'm talking. Yeah.
- 40:21S6: All that. Because if you're not careful, the what and
- 40:25S6: the how without the why can lead you into something
- 40:28S6: that God doesn't even want for you. He doesn't even
- 40:31S6: want it. It's not his will for your life. You're like,
- 40:36S6: oh boy, this might be good because it's spring and
- 40:38S6: our house is going on the market or whatever. So
- 40:41S6: here's the cool thing about God's Word and a couple
- 40:45S6: of places you can just determine, oh, this is the
- 40:49S6: will of God for my life. Can it direct things like.
- 40:55S6: When I sell a house, when I buy a house
- 40:57S6: where I do it, what job? I take it all. Yes.
- 41:00S6: If we don't have an integrated faith, what are we doing?
- 41:04S6: I mean, think about that.
- 41:06S2: Right? We want Jesus to be a part of every
- 41:08S2: aspect of our life, not just the the moments that
- 41:11S2: are in church or around a small group. We want
- 41:14S2: him here with us all day, every day.
- 41:17S3: Yeah.
- 41:17S6: Even in the small group, you get asked the question why?
- 41:20S2: Yeah, 100%.
- 41:22S6: I mean, every question, every decision you're making has to go.
- 41:26S6: I mean, you almost need to be to God like
- 41:29S6: your kid was to you when he was five. Why
- 41:32S6: why why why, mom?
- 41:37S3: Oh.
- 41:38S6: But it's it's a good one to ask and we're
- 41:40S6: going to deal with it.
- 41:41S1: He was running from God, but God's love brought him home.
- 41:45S1: Carl is in the crew. It's Carl and crew on
- 41:49S1: Moody Radio.
- 41:51S6: If you look for the will of God, you can
- 41:53S6: find it distinctly three times in the New Testament. You
- 41:58S6: want them? I got it for you. First is this
- 42:01S6: it is God's will that people believe in the son
- 42:06S6: and have eternal life. How awesome is that? That is
- 42:09S6: God's will for our life. That you would believe that
- 42:15S6: Jesus is the Son of God and have eternal life.
- 42:18S6: That's just awesome. Another one is that you would give
- 42:23S6: thanks in all circumstances. This is God's will. First Thessalonians
- 42:30S6: 513 and in first Thessalonians, if you back up a
- 42:35S6: little bit, you find this big umbrella for the will
- 42:38S6: of God. That is something that I use all the time.
- 42:40S6: First Thessalonians chapter four, verse three. This is the will
- 42:44S6: of God, your sanctification. Oftentimes we have this bifurcated or
- 42:52S6: quad furcated life. We've got this. We got this faith. Carl,
- 42:56S6: I'm going to put myself here. We got this Carl
- 42:58S6: that's got this faith component. I put my faith in Jesus.
- 43:02S6: The tendency can be to think, then we've got this.
- 43:06S6: And that kind of revolves around church and quiet time
- 43:09S6: and all that. And then we've got this. We got
- 43:12S6: this job, Carl, and you got this family, Carl, and
- 43:15S6: you got this hobbies, Carl. And you got all that. No, no, no, really, boy,
- 43:23S6: if you could paint a picture, rather than even having
- 43:28S6: a hierarchical list of what comes first, second, third, fourth,
- 43:31S6: fifth in your life, which is usually ranks out this way.
- 43:36S6: God and then family and then work. And then you
- 43:39S6: go down the list. Really? You should look at it
- 43:42S6: almost like a dartboard. Where in the center. Is God
- 43:47S6: in the center? And then he works out through all
- 43:50S6: those little pie charts, right? All those little pies right
- 43:55S6: where it's got at the center. And if God's at
- 43:57S6: the center. This is the will of God, number one,
- 43:59S6: that you know him. Number two, that you give thanks
- 44:03S6: in all circumstances. But this is the big one. Your
- 44:07S6: sanctification and your sanctification is not bifurcated from your work.
- 44:14S6: It's not bifurcated from your play. It's sanctification permeates every
- 44:20S6: aspect of our life. This is a big deal. This
- 44:23S6: is a big deal. And it's as practical as a
- 44:29S6: young man at our downtown campus here at 180 Chicago.
- 44:33S6: and he had a big decision coming up and he
- 44:36S6: made an appointment. We got on the horn together and
- 44:38S6: talked and he had a big decision. And what's great
- 44:41S6: is I can go back to the Word of God.
- 44:43S6: I'm not giving them my thoughts and my feelings about
- 44:46S6: what job he takes or whatever. What if he moves? Whatever.
- 44:51S6: I said, this is the will of God, your sanctification.
- 44:54S6: There's one thing you got to think about. What is
- 44:58S6: going to grow me up in God, and you take
- 45:04S6: a couple different options that you have before you. It
- 45:06S6: could be that it's going to be tougher to do that,
- 45:09S6: but it's going to grow you up and guide more.
- 45:13S6: And if you can think through every decision in your
- 45:17S6: life through this is the will of God, your sanctification.
- 45:20S6: Oh my goodness, now you've got an integrated faith. Now
- 45:25S6: everything works together. You start. You start looking at even
- 45:32S6: hobbies through the lens of your sanctification. It could be
- 45:37S6: that you need to ramp that up a little bit
- 45:39S6: and bring something else down a little bit, but God's
- 45:42S6: will permeates everything. Coming up here in a moment, I'm
- 45:47S6: going to bring in a special guest. I just got
- 45:50S6: a call out to him. We're going to talk about
- 45:53S6: a big issue that many of you are facing. The
- 45:57S6: question is, how do we discern what that even looks
- 46:01S6: like in my life? It's a big one. We'll tackle it.
- 46:06S1: The gospel changes everything.
- 46:09S4: Where else am I going to find peace? Joy? Eternal
- 46:11S4: life not found in anyone else.
- 46:15S1: You're listening to Carl and Crew.
- 46:19S6: This is the will of God, your sanctification. So I've
- 46:23S6: had it happen many times where people ask me, hey,
- 46:26S6: I've got a choice here. I've got this or that.
- 46:28S6: And I go, you know what? There's one question that
- 46:31S6: you got to ask. Which of those two is going
- 46:35S6: to most fulfill the will of God in my life,
- 46:38S6: which is my sanctification? You find the will. God is
- 46:43S6: willing that none would perish but that all would come
- 46:46S6: to faith in Christ. Isn't that sweet? God's will for
- 46:50S6: us is that we would be of good cheer even
- 46:53S6: in every circumstance and God's will for us. First Thessalonians
- 46:58S6: four three is sanctification, that we would grow up in
- 47:02S6: our relationship with God. So it might not be an
- 47:06S6: easy spot. I mean, think about this, Jesus, a couple
- 47:11S6: thousand years ago this week was headed toward Jerusalem to
- 47:15S6: pay the price for our sins. Guys, he was headed
- 47:18S6: that way. That was God's will for his life. Now, thankfully,
- 47:24S6: we don't have to go to the cross. Jesus did
- 47:26S6: it for us. But where we're going, we got to
- 47:29S6: ask the question, is this going to grow me up
- 47:32S6: in my relationship with God? One of the biggest whys
- 47:34S6: in the road that we face is what do we
- 47:37S6: do when we leave our place of employment, especially when
- 47:41S6: we're in the classical? I'm going to put it in
- 47:42S6: air quotes. Retirement years. Dave Chervinsky, my guest right now.
- 47:47S6: Good to have you with me, Dave. We're talking about
- 47:49S6: this whole issue of the will of God. It's good
- 47:52S6: to to not bifurcate our life into work versus worship
- 47:57S6: of God. Right, my friend?
- 47:58S10: Well, I think they're one and the same thing. And,
- 48:02S10: you know, we identify our work and our Christianity through
- 48:06S10: the things we do. And it's not just on Sundays,
- 48:10S10: it's on every day. Yeah. And so your work really
- 48:13S10: is going to be an example of your faith. How
- 48:17S10: hard do you work? How, what is your dedication level?
- 48:20S10: What is your your mission isn't just to do work,
- 48:23S10: but it's to lead people to Christ.
- 48:24S3: Yeah.
- 48:25S6: When did you have an epiphany in your life when
- 48:28S6: God revealed to you that retirement, that break from what
- 48:33S6: you're doing? I'm not saying that you never retire, but
- 48:37S6: you actually shift gears into another, um, emphasis for your life.
- 48:42S6: When did that hit you? Dave.
- 48:45S10: It was about 15 years ago when I spent my
- 48:48S10: career helping people plan to leave the workforce. And as
- 48:52S10: those people were actually leaving the workforce, some, you know,
- 48:56S10: younger and especially athletes that we work with are younger
- 48:59S10: when they leave the workforce. I saw how empty it
- 49:03S10: was when they left and how for a lot of people,
- 49:07S10: their purpose was gone. The reason for waking up was gone.
- 49:10S10: They didn't have to go to work. And it struck
- 49:12S10: me at that moment that this is not what we
- 49:15S10: should be planning for. And it's not just about work
- 49:19S10: or things like that, but it's about your purpose. And
- 49:21S10: your life is so much greater than what your job
- 49:25S10: is or the office that you drive to. That is
- 49:27S10: that is a relatively small part of our lives. It's
- 49:29S10: our faith that is really what we're going to walk
- 49:32S10: out forever.
- 49:33S3: Yeah.
- 49:34S6: It's so beautiful. You know, I think the tendency, Dave,
- 49:37S6: is that we do bifurcate or quad furcate our life,
- 49:40S6: but you, you nailed it. I mean, when we are
- 49:44S6: transformed by the power of God's grace that has the opportunity.
- 49:49S6: It doesn't say that it will, but it has the
- 49:51S6: opportunity to impact every aspect of our life. I know
- 49:55S6: that you're a big champion, that let's just cut to
- 49:58S6: it that retirement not found in the scriptures. Right, Dave?
- 50:02S6: It's not there.
- 50:03S11: It's not really there. The way that.
- 50:05S10: We're going, that the way that the world does it now,
- 50:07S10: where you walk away and you walk the beach for
- 50:09S10: the next 25 years, and then somebody reads about your
- 50:13S10: death notice in the paper. That's not in the Bible.
- 50:16S6: So give us a vision. If retirement isn't there for
- 50:20S6: what could be there.
- 50:22S10: Well, Carl, I think it starts earlier than, you know,
- 50:25S10: those last couple of years in your in your work life,
- 50:28S10: it really starts somewhere. You know, maybe 10 or 15
- 50:32S10: years out where you're investing in things greater than ourselves,
- 50:36S10: greater than the world. And I always go back to Proverbs.
- 50:39S10: I love Proverbs because there's so much wisdom in there.
- 50:43S10: And Proverbs 1320 says, he who walks with the wise
- 50:48S10: grows wise. And I think what that means to me
- 50:51S10: is that, you know, if you really want to know
- 50:53S10: what God's will is for the rest of your life
- 50:55S10: after work, after these things, after kids are gone, you're
- 50:58S10: going to put people in your life that are biblically correct,
- 51:03S10: biblically in place, and they're going to help you, and
- 51:06S10: you're going to help them discern what comes next in
- 51:09S10: your life. And they could be a pastor or a
- 51:12S10: prayer partner. Uh, there could be appall in your life
- 51:16S10: that you're learning from somebody that you're learning with and
- 51:19S10: somebody that you're teaching to kind of a mentoring relationship.
- 51:23S10: And I think these accountability levels in your life will
- 51:26S10: help you develop a discernment for what comes next. And I,
- 51:31S10: you know, I just got back Sunday night from the
- 51:34S10: Amazon River in Brazil. We did a missions trip there,
- 51:37S10: and we took a big group of guys, a big
- 51:39S10: group of people with us from a local church. And
- 51:42S10: I'm watching it change their lives as we're serving people
- 51:46S10: that nobody even knows that they're alive.
- 51:49S3: Yeah.
- 51:49S10: And I and one of the guys said, David, this
- 51:53S10: trip has changed my life. You know, I didn't do that.
- 51:59S10: I didn't change his life. God changed this young man's
- 52:02S10: life because now he knows he has this information and
- 52:05S10: he can apply it to the rest of his life.
- 52:07S10: And I think that's the kind of stuff we need
- 52:09S10: to be around what comes next. Because and you know, Carl,
- 52:13S10: I'm not against leisure and golfing and doing things like that. Sure.
- 52:17S10: I think those things are important too. I don't want
- 52:19S10: you to retire and have no fun in your life,
- 52:23S10: but I want you to think about something greater, something
- 52:26S10: longer term, something eternal that we could be involved with.
- 52:30S6: Yeah. No, I love this, Dave. David Sharansky, my guest
- 52:33S6: right now, and he's written on that. I'll tell you
- 52:35S6: about it in a moment here. But you know, this
- 52:38S6: is this is really important because I think a lot
- 52:42S6: of people, when you find the kind of the totality
- 52:45S6: of who you are and work when you retire. Oh,
- 52:48S6: now you got a problem. But when you see that
- 52:50S6: God's given you spiritual gifts, uh, you've gained years of
- 52:54S6: wisdom that others need. I'm reminded of Howard Hendricks. I
- 52:57S6: remember him telling a group of us we were meeting
- 52:59S6: in Saint Pete Beach, and he said, I'm spending most
- 53:03S6: of my years right now getting good men off the
- 53:06S6: golf course, back into the lives of younger men because
- 53:09S6: they underestimate how God can use them. What do you
- 53:12S6: say to what Howard said?
- 53:14S10: I always thought of Howard as like, a guy's guy,
- 53:17S10: you know, like, uh, if if if I was backed
- 53:21S10: into a corner. I want Howard to me because he's
- 53:24S10: going to help me. And so when you hear that
- 53:26S10: from somebody like that, when you hear that from somebody
- 53:28S10: that you respect and you look up to and you
- 53:31S10: know that they're a godly man, you take notice. And
- 53:35S10: I love that getting getting out of this leisure trap.
- 53:38S10: And that's exactly what it is for a lot of
- 53:40S10: people today. It's a leisure trap where you think that's
- 53:43S10: where I'm going to find my self-worth, my net worth,
- 53:47S10: my being and all those things. And I can tell you,
- 53:50S10: I have seen this hundreds of times now in my career.
- 53:54S10: It is an empty vessel and people get there and
- 53:57S10: they're so disappointed with what they find that it's it's
- 54:02S10: really incumbent on us as godly men to do what
- 54:06S10: Howard Howard said, get those guys, get those people. It's
- 54:10S10: not just guys. Yeah. It's everybody. Get those people out
- 54:14S10: of that life of that trap and get them back
- 54:18S10: to being useful people where they can further the kingdom
- 54:21S10: of God. Because a lot of those people are highly respected,
- 54:24S10: highly efficient, and very effective people. They're powerful witnesses for Christ.
- 54:31S10: We got to get them back there.
- 54:32S6: Yeah. And even if you think you're listening right now, going, well,
- 54:35S6: I've kind of had an obscure job. I'm not a
- 54:37S6: high profile person there. Someone needs what you have learned, friend.
- 54:42S6: Someone needs it. And then when that one's done receiving,
- 54:46S6: there's more. And the body of Christ needs you. Dave. David,
- 54:50S6: I got to tell you a story here, man, this
- 54:53S6: is so cool. This will fire you up. So we
- 54:55S6: got a guy in our, one of our campuses, actually
- 54:58S6: northwest campus of our church, one in Chicago. And he
- 55:00S6: did really well in startups, like did really well. And
- 55:04S6: it came time for him to do the classic retirement.
- 55:08S6: And God used a conversation that myself and my right
- 55:12S6: hand man Christopher had with him. His name's Scott and
- 55:17S6: just an incredible guy. And he read your book. And
- 55:21S6: here's what's really cool. He loves fishing. He goes all
- 55:25S6: over the world, goes fishing. He slowed down those trips.
- 55:28S6: I don't know if he's been on one, maybe two
- 55:31S6: max in the almost two years now that he's been
- 55:34S6: serving in this new role. He's our campus director. And
- 55:38S6: you know what he wants for a salary every year? $1. David.
- 55:44S6: And can I can I tell you can I tell
- 55:47S6: you something? He says this is the best job he's
- 55:50S6: ever had in his life.
- 55:53S10: Yeah.
- 55:53S6: Oh, he listen, he did really well. And now he's
- 55:59S6: doing even better. Boom. Crew, I want you to hear
- 56:02S6: me right now. David has written a book called The
- 56:05S6: Sin of Retirement. It was used in my friend Scott
- 56:08S6: File's life in a big way. and I want you
- 56:12S6: to consider it as well. We got a link coming
- 56:14S6: your way that is both to his website and a
- 56:17S6: link to this book. And I don't just come on
- 56:20S6: here and sell books. We give you resources that are
- 56:24S6: going to help you, in this case, discern the will
- 56:26S6: of God. And it could be that you were headed
- 56:29S6: down a path that had you checking out. God doesn't
- 56:32S6: want you checking out transitioning. Sure. Checking out no text
- 56:39S6: the word retirement to (800) 555-7898. Text the word retirement to (800) 555-7898.
- 56:52S6: Watch what God can do with you.
- 56:56S1: Tune in whenever you like. Check out the Carl and
- 56:59S1: Cru podcast wherever you like to stream.
- 57:04S6: This is the season when a lot of people are
- 57:06S6: making a lot of big moves. Inventory rising on realty
- 57:11S6: sites because it's the time, man. I mean, spring cleaning
- 57:15S6: is happening. Sometimes movement is happening with regard to a
- 57:19S6: lot of drivers for why we make a move. A
- 57:21S6: lot of adjustments are made. And one of the great
- 57:25S6: dangers here is that we have a bifurcated life, bifurcated life,
- 57:30S6: meaning that those of you that are disciples of Christ,
- 57:33S6: you know that God has transformed you. And and it
- 57:37S6: dictates where you go to church, maybe how you engage
- 57:41S6: with the small group of people reading the word and
- 57:44S6: nobody's perfected it, but you're convicted by the Holy Spirit. And,
- 57:49S6: and those kind of movements in our life are great.
- 57:52S6: One of the great dangers here is that that relationship
- 57:55S6: with God does not direct everything in our life. When
- 57:58S6: I say bifurcated life, oftentimes we have this thing where it's, well,
- 58:02S6: here I am with God. I'm listening to Carl and
- 58:05S6: Crew right now. But then when I turned this off,
- 58:07S6: when I leave church, when I get done with my
- 58:10S6: small group, then I've got this other life I've got
- 58:12S6: to go live. No, not in Christ Jesus. They're all integrated.
- 58:17S6: They're all together. Everything is an outflow rather than life
- 58:22S6: by the list. And I nail this in one book
- 58:24S6: I wrote, but rather than life by the list, where
- 58:27S6: you got God at the top and then family and
- 58:29S6: then work and then. No, it's not life by the list.
- 58:34S6: Look at it as a dartboard. Where in that centre
- 58:38S6: is this red hot relationship with Jesus and then that boom,
- 58:43S6: imagine through all those little pieces of pie, you've got work,
- 58:46S6: you've got family, you've got hobby, you've got all these
- 58:49S6: different that's the way we roll this life in Christ
- 58:54S6: permeating every area. And so one of the great dangers
- 58:59S6: is a lot of the reason that a lot of
- 59:00S6: kids that were raised in church were never in Christ
- 59:03S6: is That we talked about the how and the what.
- 59:07S6: This is how we do it now. This is what
- 59:10S6: you do. This is how you do it without answering
- 59:13S6: the why? Yeah, without answering the why.
- 59:16S2: Because I said so.
- 59:18S6: Yeah. And God never says because I said so. So
- 59:22S6: the question you got to ask yourself is, what is
- 59:26S6: the will of God for my life in total? And
- 59:31S6: if you go to Scripture, I want to give you
- 59:32S6: three places you find the will of God. If you've
- 59:35S6: got a pen handy, write them down. You find it
- 59:39S6: that it's God's will. John 640. That people believe in
- 59:43S6: the Son of God and have eternal life. How cool
- 59:46S6: is that? That is God's will. Willing that none would perish,
- 59:51S6: none without Jesus. John 640. Then you go to first
- 59:56S6: Thessalonians chapter five, verse 18. Another place you find the
- 59:59S6: will of God. Give thanks in all circumstances. I know
- 1:00:03S6: it's tough, but this is the will of God because
- 1:00:06S6: this is the will of God. First Thessalonians 518. Well,
- 1:00:12S6: then you back up in the third place, you find
- 1:00:15S6: the will of God is a little bit earlier in
- 1:00:17S6: first Thessalonians, first Thessalonians chapter four, verse three, this is
- 1:00:23S6: the will of God, ready your sanctification. Now it goes
- 1:00:28S6: on to talk about sexual immorality and all that. But
- 1:00:30S6: mark it down. This is the will of God, your sanctification.
- 1:00:35S6: Big fancy word for growing up in our relationship with
- 1:00:38S6: God in everything. And when we begin to look at
- 1:00:44S6: our life through the lens of, wow, I'm not living
- 1:00:48S6: some bifurcated life where I've got this quiet time here,
- 1:00:51S6: and I hope the fumes of that kind of carry into,
- 1:00:53S6: you know, kind of anger with me over here. No, no, no.
- 1:00:57S6: When we start seeing that God is the God of
- 1:00:59S6: everything we do, where we live, where we work, the
- 1:01:04S6: hobbies we take up, how much time is committed to what.
- 1:01:08S6: When we answer the bigger why Katy bar the picking door,
- 1:01:12S6: it's going to change everything. Katy's working overtime today.
- 1:01:17S2: She's really boring that.
- 1:01:18S3: Tour, man.
- 1:01:20S6: So here's the deal. God wants you to live a
- 1:01:29S6: fully integrated life. And sometimes the lack of that integration
- 1:01:35S6: is explanation enough for why the abundant life seems elusive.
- 1:01:42S6: God wants to remedy that, Carl. God cares about where
- 1:01:47S6: I live. When I sell my home, what job I'm
- 1:01:51S6: going to take. Oh, you you you better believe he
- 1:01:54S6: does not because he's constrictive, but because God's a God
- 1:01:58S6: of liberty and freedom, and he wants to replace angst
- 1:02:03S6: with promptings of the spirit that guide and direct the
- 1:02:08S6: affairs of our life.
- 1:02:09S2: And isn't it amazing to know that even things like
- 1:02:13S2: purchasing a house or making a move all can get
- 1:02:18S2: us closer to Christ?
- 1:02:20S3: Oh big time.
- 1:02:20S2: We don't have to have just these little things over
- 1:02:22S2: here that have nothing to do with God. And then
- 1:02:24S2: all this is the spiritual stuff. Know it's all moving
- 1:02:27S2: us closer to Christ when we walk with him.
- 1:02:29S6: Every bit of it.
- 1:02:31S1: Celebrating the unstoppable gospel.
- 1:02:34S2: It's not that I've got to fill in these check
- 1:02:36S2: boxes so he's okay with me, but it's that I
- 1:02:38S2: get to stand close to him so that I can
- 1:02:41S2: experience the life that he has for me.
- 1:02:44S1: You're listening to Carl and Cru.
- 1:02:47S6: The Holy Spirit has someone aligned for these words I'm
- 1:02:50S6: about to share with you right now. We're talking in
- 1:02:53S6: times all week long. We're talking about your life counting
- 1:02:56S6: in a way that you will hear well done, good
- 1:02:58S6: and faithful servant. So I want you to listen closely
- 1:03:02S6: and listen fast. We have a massive gap in American
- 1:03:09S6: North American Western Christianity. Here's the gap. Those who are
- 1:03:13S6: Christian in name only and those who are followers of
- 1:03:17S6: Jesus Christ. And the gap is huge. 72% claim Christian.
- 1:03:25S6: If they were pushed for a title 4% most recent
- 1:03:31S6: poll 2025 4% have a biblical worldview that is so
- 1:03:36S6: related to God and connected to God that they want
- 1:03:39S6: the words of Scripture to guide their private and public lives.
- 1:03:45S6: I'm talking to you, friend, this morning, and God brought
- 1:03:48S6: you here ready? Because something hasn't added up and you've
- 1:03:51S6: got a holy hunch. And now the Holy Spirit's going
- 1:03:54S6: to confirm what it is. And that is, there are
- 1:03:56S6: many millions of people who go to Bible believing churches
- 1:04:01S6: every weekend. A lot of kids that left the church
- 1:04:05S6: were never in Christ. There are many who are in
- 1:04:08S6: church who are not in Christ. And friend, God doesn't
- 1:04:10S6: want that for you. Jesus says it so clearly, not
- 1:04:15S6: only in Matthew seven but in Matthew 25. I spent
- 1:04:19S6: some time yesterday. I'm just going to say it quickly
- 1:04:21S6: right now. Many will say on that day, Lord, Lord,
- 1:04:24S6: and he's going to say, I never knew you. And
- 1:04:25S6: you go to Matthew 25 and what you see is
- 1:04:28S6: ten bridesmaids, five are ready, five are not. They all
- 1:04:34S6: claim to be ready and waiting for Jesus to come.
- 1:04:38S6: Five are not ready. Why? Because the Holy Spirit of
- 1:04:42S6: God does not possess them. You do not have to
- 1:04:46S6: be freaked out. You do not have to wonder any longer.
- 1:04:50S6: But today God is calling you to quit trying to
- 1:04:54S6: do this. Walking the broad path with all the idols
- 1:04:58S6: in your hand. And trying to hold Jesus as well.
- 1:05:04S6: Jesus will not co-habitate with your idols. Not your pursuit
- 1:05:10S6: of money, of satisfaction, of pleasure, of acclaim. God wants
- 1:05:15S6: all of you. There's one answer. Repentance. Turning around from
- 1:05:21S6: the broad path, surrendering all you are to Jesus Christ today.
- 1:05:26S6: And I know I felt prompted out of the blue
- 1:05:28S6: here because God brought you here, ready? And the Spirit
- 1:05:32S6: of God is telling you, you've been in church, but
- 1:05:35S6: you've never been in Christ. You've claimed the name Christian,
- 1:05:40S6: but you've never been born again. And today you can be.
- 1:05:43S6: I'm going to state it again. Are you willing to
- 1:05:46S6: own the truth that you're a sinner and you need
- 1:05:48S6: a savior, and you're not going to add Jesus to
- 1:05:50S6: your life anymore? You're going to let him take it over?
- 1:05:53S6: Turn around, repent and surrender all you are to Christ. Today,
- 1:05:58S6: every bit of who you are to Christ today. Every bit.
- 1:06:03S6: Every bit of you. To Jesus today. Father, I thank
- 1:06:08S6: you that in this moment you are. You brought a man,
- 1:06:11S6: a woman, a young person, somebody many years in church,
- 1:06:16S6: but they have never been in Christ. And today you're
- 1:06:19S6: calling them out of darkness and into the light. Oh, God,
- 1:06:22S6: make it thorough. Make it complete and show them that
- 1:06:24S6: you who began this work, you'll carry it on to
- 1:06:26S6: completion until the day of Christ Jesus. What am I
- 1:06:29S6: calling you to surrender all to him today? Become a
- 1:06:37S6: disciple of Jesus Christ. And if God's Spirit is doing
- 1:06:40S6: that in you right now for the first time, I'm
- 1:06:42S6: going to help you on this path. I want you
- 1:06:44S6: to just grab your phone and go, wow, God's Spirit
- 1:06:48S6: just hit me and said, you have never been in me.
- 1:06:54S6: Add on Jesus will not take you to heaven. Add on.
- 1:06:57S6: Jesus will not give you abundant life. Christian in name only.
- 1:07:02S6: Can't save anyone but the full surrender of your life
- 1:07:06S6: to Jesus and repenting, turning around open hands, saying I
- 1:07:09S6: surrender all. It can change everything. Right now I'm going
- 1:07:13S6: to help you. Just text the word new. Just one
- 1:07:16S6: word new n e w to 800 555 7898. We're
- 1:07:20S6: going to help you in your first steps with Jesus.
- 1:07:23S6: Use this link. Use it. Don't just get it. Use it.
- 1:07:27S6: Text the word new to 800 555 7898. One word
- 1:07:33S6: new to 800 555 7898. God had you here to
- 1:07:40S6: save your soul today. One word new to 800 555 7898.