Latest / For Azeroth!: A World of Warcraft Podcast / #344 - For Azeroth!: “Tactykal Talk”

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#344 - For Azeroth!: “Tactykal Talk” · For Azeroth!: A World of Warcraft Podcast

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Guardian Druid. Something not incarn related.
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I'm begging, just not incarn related.
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Please, please pick something else.
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For the Forsaken, for Lauderon, for the Kieran Tour, for
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Pandaria. For calendar to the.
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Burning region for Gilnaeus, but has not done for the Lich King,
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for the Sindori, for the Alliance, for the Horn, for
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Azeroth. Hello and welcome to a very
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special episode of For Azeroth. I am of course Manny AKA to
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Trueville. Manny and I am joined by the
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Indomitable Wall Tactics. Hello tactics, how are you?
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Good, good. Excited to be here.
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I appreciate the invite. Always happy to talk about all
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things tanking. So yeah, it's I'm excited.
1:00
Yeah. So for those of us who may not
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know the pedigree that you're coming from, tell us a little
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bit about yourself. Yeah, so I've been playing Wow
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for a long time, I think since like Burning Crusade when I was
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in like middle school, I was kind of on and off.
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I've been playing consistently since Siege of Orgermar and I
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started being a bit more competitive in like Battle for
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Azeroth, like the end of Battle for Azeroth in Season 4 with all
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the corruption stuff, Nyalotha. And then I started like
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seriously mythic raiding in Castle Nathria.
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And since then I've kind of worked my way up.
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I've gotten like every single point 1% title on I think 5 out
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of the six tank specs. I've gotten cutting edge Hall of
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Fame on four or five of the of the tank specs in the game.
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And I currently raid in like a Guild that hovers around the
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world 50 rank. Yeah, in fact, this last tier,
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you guys got a world first, if I recall correctly.
1:57
Yeah, yeah. Not usually something we we go
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for by any means, but it was, it was cool.
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It was cool to get for sure. Definitely.
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So like, I guess you weren't going like you said, you don't
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go for that, but like how did that happen?
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How did you get into that world? First kill?
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Yes, I mean, we, we do only two splits total.
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So we have we have two groups usually and a lot of the top
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guilds, they'll have many, many groups especially look in the
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race world first, right. Like they don't really care
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about the first bosses, they care about the last boss and
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that's it. And so they do like 40 splits,
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but like the normal human guilds in the top 100 usually do
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anywhere from 2:00 to 4:00 splits.
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So we're on the lower end of that, right, with, with two
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splits. And so we finished all the
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splits except for heroic dementias.
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We hadn't done heroic dementias yet.
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And we looked and we saw no Guild had gotten below 60% on
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the first boss. And we're like, what's going on
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there? So we, we went in, we were like,
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hey, what, what is actually so tough about this boss?
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And on our first poll, I think we had like a 2% wipe and you're
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like, OK, so this is just people pulling this, this boss without
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gear. We, we went back and looked
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like, so no one had tier bonuses, no one had anything
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outside of like the season 2 stuff.
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It's like, OK, well, we'll just kill it real quick and and move
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on. Get a world first.
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Put that in our, our cap. And yeah, it was, it was funny.
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But yeah, definitely not. We are, we are not delusional in
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thinking that we are world first Raiders.
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You know, I, I promptly retired, I think shortly after that.
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Go out on top. That's awesome.
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So then with that as well as casting you've, you've had like
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a good amount of experience with the War Within and with tanking
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and how it's been. So that's kind of what we're
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here to talk about today about tanking in the War Within and
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how it's looking like going into Midnight and what we might like.
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So give me like a little bit of background on your tanking.
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So you do splits. Is there like a favorite tank?
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Are you playing all of the tanks?
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I think historically at least I'm I'm pretty well known for
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playing Guardian Druid. It was like the first tank I
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started playing competitively back in Castle Nathria and it
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was actually the tank spec that I 1 tricked all the way through
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getting mythic plus titles and through getting into a Hall of
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Fame Guild. That's a tank player, which is,
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you know, that's there's only two tanks boxed in a Guild.
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So it takes a bit of a bit of time and effort to actually get
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one of those, you know, coveted spots.
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And so I one tricked guardian Druid to actually do that.
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Since then I've been more of a multi class tank player.
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As you know, again, the higher you go up in the the Guild
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ranks, the more important it is that your tank players
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specifically are multi classers. And so that's something I've
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taken on, but Guardian Druids always going to have a a close
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spot in my heart. OK.
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And so as you've moved away from being a 1 trick and as you've
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gained that sort of flexibility, we've moved into the war within.
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And so like in general, how have tanks been?
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Has the like, let's say the delta on how viable tanks are,
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Has that been fairly narrow? Have all tanks been like
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somewhat viable or or like how's it been through through the war
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within? So I think it always depends on
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the content, right? Like I think a lot of people's
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think in my weekly 10 keys I need the meta tank In my weekly,
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you know, get my keystone ledge and need the meta tank or
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whatever. That's definitely not true.
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I think every single tank is more than viable to do that kind
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of level of content. Even cutting edge getting,
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beating the hard response, automatic difficulty is doable
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by all 6 tank specs. So I don't think like viability
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wise that's an issue. Obviously you're going to see
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some things excel and you're going to see some interesting
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trends. If you look at like season 1
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meta tank numbers, Season 2 meta tank numbers, it's heavily
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skewed in One Direction. But I think that is almost a bit
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of a symptom of high end tank players often being multi
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classers, right? Like there are obviously still
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high end 1 tricks, but a lot of tank players are just happy to
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play the tank role and they will just reroll to the strongest
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tank that is in the role currently.
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And so I think that probably plays a a bit of an influence on
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why you see like 90 plus percent representation of like prop
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Paladin season one title range, for example, or or similar
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number for season 2 in Vengeance Team Hunter.
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I, I think I've said that multiple times on this show
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where it is one of those self fulfilling prophecies where it's
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like, Oh yeah, this is like able to do the exact same thing, but
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a little bit easier. And so like the best players
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shift over to that, that makes it look like it's performing
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even that much better. And that causes that like, you
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know, trickle down or cascading effect.
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So I'm glad that they're that they're all viable at least for
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for everything but the cutting edge of players or the bleeding
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edge. I don't want to call it just
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cutting edge. Is the same true relative to
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raid and mythic plus? Or is there a little bit more of
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a schism for different content? Yeah, I mean, I think, I think
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it's especially early on in the in the expansion and it had a
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bit of a rough start, right? Like going into the the beta of
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War Within there was the whole tank nerfs, right?
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It was a it was a big topic because like they kind of
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Blizzard kind of came in and they're like, listen, tanks are
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too powerful right now. We want them to have some
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reliance on healers. In exchange, we're going to give
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you a less bursty damage intake. And and that's kind of what
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their initial stated goals were going into the expansion.
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And it didn't quite work out in season 1, as we saw right?
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There was a ton of bursty magic damage intake and most tank
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specs had problems dealing with it.
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And then we saw Paladin kind of get buffed.
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And specifically in Mythic Plus. Again, I will maintain that raid
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is very diverse and has been diverse all expansion.
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But specifically in Mythic Plus, if you look at some of the high
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key routes, like if you're pushing for the .1% title, a lot
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of those routes could not be lived by other tank specs.
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You had to run something entirely different, usually a
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lot more conservative because of the whole 100% spell block
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shenanigans that pro paladins could do, allowing them to
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basically on demand fully mitigate any kind of incoming
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magic damage. Of which there was a lot of
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incoming magic damage bursts in season 1.
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And so that was a bit of a problem that was peeled back a
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little bit in season 2. It was almost entirely removed,
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I think magic damage intake from the tank spot it entirely
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instead of replaced by melee swings.
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The bulk of your damage was just pure melee swings.
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And so that that gives things, you know, there's a lot more
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balance in that. We saw Vengeance kind of rise
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up, but I maintain that's a mix of not only them being the most
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durable tank, but also a tank that is entirely
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self-sustaining, right. You could play with a prop
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warrior and they could survive very similar poles in season 2.
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Like we saw brewmaster as well appear in a bunch of high key
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comps, but they needed more attention from their healer is a
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is a main thing. Whereas vengeance was entirely
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self-sustaining, something that Blizzard had talked about.
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Hey, no, we want we want tanks to rely on the healer and then
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just vengeance on its own kind of didn't do that.
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Lived the same or bigger poles and then buffed all the DPS that
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were doing magic damage at the same time.
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So that was kind of, you know, it kind of skewed it in
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Vengeance's favor a bit, but we did start seeing with them
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removing magic damage, more tanks appear in the high end.
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Like I said, there were there prop warrior comps, there were
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room master comps, and I think season 3 they've struck a nice
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balance where they've kind of peeled back on that a little
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bit. They've added more caster mobs
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in that actually don't hit the tank, but they still have caster
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melees. So they're a little weaker.
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And they also have a lot more debuffs and Dots in the pool.
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And then on top of that, we're seeing them kind of be like, OK,
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you know what, we'll let tanks be strong again.
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You don't need to rely on the healer.
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Prop warriors are popping off. Brewmasters got the defensive
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buffs. What prop paladins are looking
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better with the changes even of course Avengers team hunters are
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like all all the tanks. Most of the tanks.
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I mean, I think blood decays are still a little sad, but I think
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most of the tank specs this season are looking quite good.
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And obviously it's early, but you know, Ameda is Ameda is
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going to evolve at some point, but it's looking a lot more
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balanced this season than the previous two, which is good to
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see. And and a good omen for
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midnight. So before we look directly at
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midnight, sort of looking at this season, where do you see
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the meta developing or what do you think's going to influence
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the meta for Season 3 right now? So I, I think, I think always
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the biggest thing and the thing that people tend to overlook is,
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is just raw damage output. It's just like damage is king,
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especially obviously for the DPS role.
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People look at things like Vengeance, Stephen Hunter and
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Paladin from the previous seasons and they're like, well,
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you're only bringing them because of their sigil utility
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or because pals and utility. But in reality, I don't think
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that's really it. Like you build a comp around
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what can do the most damage and as a tank player, what can live
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the poles that you need to do? And then you say, OK, what
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utility do we have and what kind of poles do these utility
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abilities enable? If they enable us to pull bigger
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because we have all these AOE lockdown abilities, great, we'll
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pull bigger. If they are not enabling us to
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do that and we instead need to pull 5 moms at a time, we'll do
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that. And we saw Brewmaster comps,
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like I was talking about, even in Season 2 when everyone's
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talking about how great Vengeance, even Hunter is, those
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Brewmaster physicoms, we're doing like -1 key level only.
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So they were still well above title range, barely below the
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the bleeding edge players. And so they're clearly showing
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that it is not just about the utility kit.
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It is more about the throughput and the synergy of the specs
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that you're playing. And, and I think a big factor
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for this season is how strong DPS specs are because I think
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tuning is not just solid on the tank front.
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There's a lot of good DPS specs right now, more so than I would
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say in previous seasons. And you can kind of build these
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comps with good DPS specs around all of these other tanks, right?
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You can build a magic based comp around a Demon Hunter.
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You can build an attack based comp around a prot warrior.
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You can build a physical base comp around a brewmaster monk.
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And you can build kind of these general comps around stuff like
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guardian Druid and protection paladin, right.
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So there's you have a lot more flexibility and they're just
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being more strong DPS specs kind of enables these tank specs to
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be played as well. And so with all those options,
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you gave us 5 which lack core DK out in the gold there.
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So let's let's talk about that. What what's holding DKS back
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right now? What does blood lack that the
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other tanks are bringing? So they lack consistency, I
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would say, in terms of the ability to mitigate melee
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swings, like we talked about Blizzard kind of moving towards
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melee swings being the vast, vast majority of your damage
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taken, especially in Mythic Plus.
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And when you're dancing rune weapon is up, you're happy,
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right? Like you're vibing, nothing can
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kill you. You're death striking your life
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away. It's great.
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The problem becomes in all those moments between your dancing
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rune weapons where you don't necessarily have a lot of
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coverage, right? Like Vampiric Blood and
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Umbilicus can do some work. Obviously you always have
13:51
purgatory to lay back on, right? But they basically just have to
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work infinitely harder than every other tank spec to live a
14:01
lot of these poles. Boss fights, they're better, but
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boss fights don't tend to be the focus in a dungeon, right?
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Like you're usually more focused on trash poles or trash poles
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onto boss fights, right for for a lot of these higher keys.
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And so being really good against fighting one mob is not as
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valuable, which blood decay is obviously very good.
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And blood decay is obviously also a staple and raid right?
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Like we even saw get the world first kill.
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So it's not like blood Decay is bad LED DK is a very good tank
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spec, but it's almost like a raid specialist at the moment.
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I really think they need something in the talent tree,
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maybe on a choice node with something so they don't take it
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in raid, but something that kind of scales their defensiveness
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against those melee swings, especially in AOE in particular
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like that. They need, they need something
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to help in that specific situation, I think.
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And you know, they've, they've kind of steered away from the
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dancing run weapon Cdr because as we saw in shadow lands in
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season 3 and season 4, if they can just have dancing run weapon
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all the time, they, they're crazy, right?
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They're they're, they're kind of insane.
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So Blizzard has steered away from that.
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I personally kind of like the idea of giving dancing run
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weapon on the Deathbringer sides 'cause that would have given
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some like oh Deathbringer is like hey this is really good in
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mythic plus and lanes the raid 1, whatever.
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I think that would have been cool.
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They ended up scrapping that idea and giving you bone storm
15:23
instead, which I I think is definitely significantly worse.
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So I would like them to also go back and experiment with a
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little bit more like 100% guaranteed 2 or 3 seconds of
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dancing room weapon when you use a deathbringer scythe.
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I think that could also help, but I really think the talent
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that scales into AOE is kind of what they need instead.
15:44
OK, you actually mentioned something that I'd love to talk
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about because The War Within is the introduction of hero
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talents. And we have seen, of course, all
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specs have access to two different different hero
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talents. Some specs have loved both
15:59
options, other ones have said that one is king and the other
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one is just absolute popper. Unless you're doing it.
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That's for the themes. How has that been in The War
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Within? You were just talking about
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Death Night, so we can start there.
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But also, I know for sure that every time I tells people that
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I'm a Fell scarred vengeance Demon Hunter, they look at me a
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little funny. So how how's it been for our
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tanks? It's been, it's been fun.
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Like I think thematically they're a lot of them are pretty
16:31
cool, right? Like they're they have cool
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ideas. Some of them seem like misses.
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I do wonder going into midnight if they go in there and actually
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like delete a hero spec and add a new one in its place.
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If there's been like a lot of negative feedback.
16:46
I'm trying to think of why maybe light Smith is one that I can
16:49
think of that has has had a it had a negative reception
16:52
initially. And then a lot of people I still
16:55
see are like, man, I don't want to be a light Smith.
16:57
I want to be a Templar. I want to I want to swing
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hammers. I don't want to play this light,
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even though it's like it was the best in season 1, It's looking
17:02
like the best in the current season.
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A lot of people don't like playing it.
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So I do wonder if, you know, they would be willing to just
17:09
scrap a hero tree and put a new one in that.
17:11
That's an interesting idea. But but overall, I think like
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you said, it's either the situation where one is the best
17:18
at everything and then you just don't play the other one, or
17:21
it's the situation of 1 is mythic plus and one is raid and
17:24
you don't ever play 1 and the other right.
17:27
And so I think that is maybe a little less interesting.
17:31
It's maybe this is from a tank perspective, right.
17:34
I don't know what the DPS situation or the healer
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situation is if they're switching up, but I don't know.
17:40
I don't hate the whole mythic plus versus raid one because at
17:43
least then you have some field variation potentially, but it
17:48
definitely feels a bit a bit weird when you were only playing
17:52
one and you're never playing the other in any form of content.
17:55
Like I think Stan Lane is that right now for DKS.
17:59
Now like that hasn't always been true given the season as they've
18:04
been tuning and adjusting them, they like certain to one
18:06
suddenly become, Oh well, now this is the one we bring into
18:09
raid. Has that been interesting
18:12
enough? Or do you really feel like both
18:14
should be viable and you should be able to like either stick
18:18
with your guns or switch it up as you as you feel that you want
18:22
to? I know perfect balance is an
18:24
ideal that will never touch, but like, do you think they should
18:28
strive for that ideal or do you think they just should?
18:30
They should say, you know what? We understand that this will
18:32
never happen. So we're going to focus on
18:36
making sure you have one that's viable for for any content.
18:40
Yeah, I mean, I think, I think no matter what they're going to
18:43
do, yeah, there's there's going to be one that's better in some
18:45
form of content, right. Perfect balance is impossible.
18:48
And I think they've done a fine job at that.
18:50
Like, I don't think it's they've done a poor job at it.
18:53
And you know, it's, it's, it's almost like it's a player
18:56
mentality, right? Where like, oh, Sanlein is 1 1/2
19:01
percent ahead and Deathbringer, Deathbringer is unviable.
19:04
Never play Deathbringer. You know, it's like, guys, it's
19:07
it's 1 1/2%. You're not even playing at 100%
19:10
capacity. It's chill.
19:12
You can play what you want. Don't don't worry about it.
19:16
But like there are some that have like a super significant
19:18
gaps that I also think should be addressed.
19:20
But we can talk about Guardian. This is I think the most
19:23
egregious example where the entire expansion you have a
19:26
loons chosen in Mythic Plus and you have drew to the claw in
19:28
raid. If you tried to play loons
19:31
chosen versus like drew to the claw in raid, you were actually
19:35
like 20% less DPS. Like it is actually that high
19:39
because just the cat weaving damage absolutely owns a Loon's
19:43
chosen, which the build historically, just looking
19:46
throughout all three seasons is really, really bad at single
19:49
target damage, right? It's just it's just not built
19:52
for that. And so that's like a situation
19:54
very obviously with how the talent trees are built.
19:57
A Loon's chosen is for mythic plus true to the claws for raid.
19:59
You don't mix, right? You don't mix because true to
20:01
the claw has a lot of consistency problems in in
20:04
mythic plus situations. You're reliant on procs for
20:06
defensiveness. Which is not ideal, whereas
20:09
Elunes chosen is the complete opposite, right?
20:12
You have so much rage generation, you can spend a lot
20:15
more on iron furs and you are very, very consistent with a new
20:18
defensive button in lunar beam that drew to claw doesn't have
20:22
in their build, right? So it's it's kind of built for
20:25
Mythic plus, whereas Drew to claw is built for single target
20:28
And and they just been that way the entire expansion.
20:32
And you just have, I mean, it just has to be the intention,
20:34
right? Like there's, there's such a
20:36
massive gap between them that it just, it can't be by accident, I
20:41
feel like. But I mean, this might lead to
20:44
another discussion of Guardian just kind of being the forgotten
20:47
stepchild of the tanks potentially and just being tuned
20:50
all expansion, but that that's another discussion entirely.
20:53
Oh. Man, I thought that was Red
20:55
Paladins, but again, OK, so you've had that discrepancy.
21:02
Have there any, have there been any tanks that are just like the
21:04
success stories where they're like so close that yes, you you
21:09
could be a that 1.5% behind, but go for it.
21:14
I mean, I think right now that's Brewmaster Monk, right?
21:17
Like I think Master of Harmony and Shadowpan are both like
21:19
solid. I don't know the actual number
21:21
discrepancy between them, but I'm pretty sure people are
21:23
playing both at a relatively high level.
21:26
Maybe they're leaning a little bit towards Master of Harmony
21:29
and Raid and a little bit towards Shadow Pan and Mythic
21:31
Plus, if I remember correctly. But they're both like really,
21:34
really good and usable in both forms.
21:36
But, and also to be clear, like, yeah, viability wise, I think
21:39
everything really is usable in in both forms of content.
21:43
Outside of that, I think it's kind of waffled on the season,
21:48
you know, like it's, it's been kind of dependent on like the
21:52
tier bonuses, right? Like for example, in season 1
21:55
for paladins, just as an example, the tier bonus really
21:58
favored light Smith. It was about wings and and like
22:01
wings damage. And obviously they do a lot more
22:02
damage in their wings because of their just how the the talent
22:05
tree functions. Season 2, it's kind of swapped
22:08
in the favor of Templar a bit. And then season 3 we're going
22:13
back and like the light Smith tier bonus is just better than
22:15
the Templar tier bonus. So that's another layer as well,
22:18
right? The specific hero tree tier
22:20
bonuses in this tier are really impactful for affecting which
22:25
hero tree you're playing. I think Bratwur is another
22:28
example which is waffled back and forth.
22:30
It was like Thane and and colossus in season 1 in mythic
22:33
blessing raid and it was all colossus in season 2 and now
22:36
it's all thane in season 3. So like it is not a bad thing I
22:41
think for to swap up from tier to tier.
22:43
Like, I personally am a fan of new gameplay, every tier playing
22:47
the same spec just because you know, whether that's through
22:50
tier bonuses or whether that's through your hero tree switching
22:53
or whatever it is. I'm a fan of that just because
22:56
it it, you know, you're playing the same thing, but it feels a
22:59
little different, you know, And I think I like that between
23:01
tiers as opposed to just only between expansions, you know?
23:06
Yeah I I definitely agree that I have loved it but like also I
23:10
play enhancement shaman and both DPS shamans got like a almost a
23:15
rework in season 2 so it got switched up a bit.
23:18
And then you're right, the tier set bonuses that are doubling
23:22
down on our hero talents has switched things up as well.
23:25
So same as you or same as many tanks rather?
23:29
I have had a different hero spec that I have played in the
23:33
different tiers going back and forth between them.
23:37
So then looking at the tier bonuses in season 2 in Undermine
23:42
we had a lot of tier bonuses that were proc based and had the
23:45
like jackpot and so forth. Kind of cool for DPS, not
23:50
something I would like if I was a tank and looking for some
23:53
consistency. How was that feeling for the
23:56
tanks in Season 2? Man, never give me those tier
23:59
bonuses again. That's OK.
24:03
Here's here's the problem with them.
24:04
OK, just just real quick, I won't I won't go too far, but
24:08
it's like, OK, tanks hate RNG defensiveness, right?
24:14
What can make that OK is if the RNG defensive either is not too
24:21
low of a proc rate, right? It's got like a fairly decent
24:24
decent proc rate or the duration on the random proc defensive is,
24:29
is decent so that you don't have to react in a 2 second window
24:34
and you can see, oh, I got this proc, I'm good for the next 8 to
24:37
10 seconds. The undermine tier bonuses were
24:41
neither of those. They were both very RNG, very
24:44
low proc rate. I would go polls with a 0 procs
24:47
on some boss fights for example. Sometimes you get one or two,
24:50
sometimes you get like 10. And they were also I think 4
24:54
second duration defensive procs. So if they propped when you like
24:59
weren't actively tanking for example, or they propped when
25:04
you had just pressed your defensive, like a different
25:07
defensive, right, it's just entirely useless almost.
25:10
So if they're going to do something like an RNG defensive
25:14
proc for tanks, they need to either make the proc more
25:17
frequent or make the proc a longer duration, and either of
25:21
those would have made them infinitely better.
25:24
I'm going to also throw in from my little bit of tanking, which
25:28
I don't do anywhere near your level, but I would also be fine
25:33
with the procs just reducing a cooldown on a defensive so that
25:36
like, yeah, so then I can use it again or I mean, type use it.
25:41
But yeah, you're you're right. I I kind of baited that question
25:45
because I just needed it that with somebody with, you know, a
25:47
bit more authority. So then moving from Undermine
25:52
Casino madness and then going into this latest season, I was
25:57
annoyed again because of the Rishi wraps.
26:01
Yeah, I feel that they once again did that.
26:03
But the tier bonuses are are much different this time around.
26:08
And so The thing is, because they are based on the hero
26:12
talents and because they are very impactful on those hero
26:15
talents, there are some definite winners and losers this tier.
26:19
So tell us about that situation. Yeah, I mean, not only are the
26:25
tier bonuses like, yeah, they're hero spec base so you can feast
26:29
your famine almost depending on tier bonus, but the actual
26:32
throughput value of these tier bonuses is way higher than the
26:35
last two tiers, like 20 plus percent across multiple of the
26:39
specs. Like it's it's pretty normal for
26:41
it to be around like a 20% output increase.
26:43
Like it's, it's kind of wild, especially when the previous
26:46
tier bonuses were absolutely nowhere near that.
26:49
Like I think especially for tanks, they were like sub 10%
26:53
and and now we're up over 20, which is is wild.
26:55
And yeah and yeah, you're seeing you're seeing some massive
26:59
swings like mountain thing is the is probably the biggest
27:01
example, right? It has never been a raid spec
27:04
really right. It was the mythic plus in season
27:06
1, not used in season 2, and now the tier set is so powerful.
27:11
One of the most powerful tier sets in the game right now, by
27:14
the way, like not even just across tanks, like across all
27:17
specs in the game is mountain Dane, Prowl warrior, and they're
27:21
just owning like they they're it is fun too, right, because this
27:24
this is a good RNG right? Your thunderblast procs.
27:28
I think it's like a 35% chance, so high chance when you get this
27:32
proc that you get quite frequently to just hit again or
27:35
a reset, sorry, is basically what the tier bonus is.
27:39
And so that's cool or that's fun.
27:40
You get an extra button press. It happens quite frequently,
27:43
deals a ton of damage. It's good.
27:45
I'm a big fan of it. And I think again, not all RNG
27:50
is bad. RNG can be good, but it needs to
27:53
be the right level of RNG. And I think, you know, the
27:56
mountain thing is a is a good example of that.
27:58
And I think just generally a lot of the tank bonuses are a lot
28:01
more offensive focus this tier as opposed to defense like we
28:05
saw in liberation of undermine the RNG defense.
28:07
It's almost like they went pure damage here, which I know I'm a
28:11
fan of, but I know there are some people that are just like
28:14
tanks should tank. They should just be tanky.
28:16
Don't worry about damage. I I like doing big numbers.
28:19
I don't know. I do like the the big numbers.
28:22
I do love this one because not just that that it is damage, but
28:26
because it gives you the button to press, you're always able to
28:30
capitalize on it unless like there's some like proc that you
28:34
munch because you didn't hit the button fast enough.
28:36
But as an offensive proc, there's no reason not to hit
28:40
that that damage as soon as you get it.
28:43
So it you're right, it's a lot of fun.
28:44
It is basically ADPS. It is ADPS tear set on a tank.
28:50
But there is another part that it it helps with is that as
28:55
you're getting these procs, as you're doing more damage, that's
28:57
helping the threat issue that tanks had.
29:00
And I, I got to ask you about this because the war within it
29:05
felt like it was going OK. And then suddenly in season 2, I
29:09
just kept hearing about threat issues after threat issues.
29:12
And that's when I started learning about particular spells
29:15
that because you weren't in combat, they weren't doing
29:17
damage and therefore not threat. And so I, I guess I got to wrap
29:21
those two questions in together. What's been the issue with
29:25
threat and what's been the issue with these bugs when you're
29:28
tanking? Yeah.
29:30
So I think initially the problem started kind of twofold, right?
29:35
And tanks got these pretty mediocre defensive oriented, a
29:38
little bit of damage in some cases, but mostly defensive
29:41
oriented tier bonuses and DPS did not.
29:44
And so, you know, the scaling in season 2 just went drastically
29:48
in DPS players favor over tank specs.
29:51
That was combined with the, the, the vengeance even hunter
29:54
effect, where you know, like all these tank players were swapping
29:58
to Vengeance and Vengeance notoriously just has bugs, which
30:02
at this point might be considered features of the spec
30:05
where the aggro doesn't work right.
30:07
Like if you're not in combat with the mobs when you sigil a
30:09
flame, you're not doing any aggro.
30:11
If you're you're glave, whether it's a reaper's glave or not
30:15
doesn't do any aggro. There's you know, there's a lot
30:18
of, you know, quirks to Venice team hunter combined with the
30:21
the, the fact they're playing a capped build.
30:24
They were heavily target capped, but they were doing gigantic
30:28
pulls. And so it became quite an issue
30:35
maintaining aggro if you're trying to do those poles because
30:37
you basically had to go in and make sure that you had built up
30:42
an Aldraki Reaver uncapped flurry ability because that was
30:47
the only thing you had that was uncapped.
30:48
So if you're doing any of these big poles, you had to make sure
30:51
you had one of those ready to actually build threat.
30:53
And even then, you would randomly just lose threat on
30:56
like the one priority mob 30 seconds into a pole because the
30:59
arcane mage is just doing 30 times your damage to that mob
31:03
and there's nothing you can do about it.
31:04
So you just have to be ready to taunt.
31:06
So it's it's stuff like that, right?
31:08
It's just a big portion is just the damage of DPS out scaling
31:13
the damage gains of of tanks. And I think these tier bonuses
31:18
is an acknowledgement of Blizzard that OK, maybe we do
31:22
need to give tanks a bit more damage.
31:24
Maybe maybe we went a little bit too hard and out of the
31:26
direction because he's on a multiple Band-Aid buff threat at
31:30
the end of season 2 and that didn't really help out too much.
31:34
And it was still a pretty pretty significant problem just because
31:38
of that damage gap. But I think it's been not not a
31:42
problem, but much less of a problem so far this season.
31:46
There are still issues on grouping and DPS getting antsy
31:50
and and pulling stuff or whatever.
31:51
But I think it's much less of an issue if you like losing threat
31:55
30 seconds into a pole. Which is just the most
31:58
frustrating thing because like if you're a tank player doing
32:01
your rotation correctly or even like 80% correctly, I don't see
32:05
why you would ever lose threat like you.
32:07
You shouldn't mechanically, right?
32:10
If you're kiting and doing weird stuff, sure right?
32:12
Then that's probably why threaded exists as a mechanic.
32:14
But if I'm doing my rotation 80% correctly with ADPS doing their
32:20
rotation 90% correctly, I should still hold thread on them?
32:23
I feel like. I don't know, maybe that's a hot
32:25
take. It's not a hot take.
32:27
You're gonna get pushed back from here, but I I generally
32:32
have had like a couple of times where like, you know, the burst
32:35
has gone off and I'm sorry I had procs.
32:38
And I feel like that shouldn't result in an absolute scare
32:43
situation, not even like, oh, we have to think panics and is able
32:46
to put it together. I don't think there should ever
32:49
be a panic. I think that at least initially,
32:52
maybe snap threat needs to be like something that tanks should
32:55
have. And then over time, if you are
32:59
consistently there, that's when the tank needs to start looking
33:03
at the threat. Yeah, there is of course a lot
33:06
that you need to do as a tank to make sure you're on top of the
33:10
threat, even know what the threat is.
33:12
And a lot of that's being dealt with with add-ons back in the
33:16
day was Omen threat meter. And since then it's been baked
33:20
into a lot of things. So now it's on the name bars if
33:23
you're using using like tidy plates or plater or any number
33:28
of different add-ons. And in fact, a lot of things
33:32
that we do are using add-ons. What are the kind of add-ons
33:35
that like currently are must haves in order to do tanking at
33:41
a sufficient level? And like with Blizzard now
33:44
looking to pare back the add-ons, especially in combat,
33:49
what are the things that Blizzard has to have baked in if
33:52
they're going to stop the US from using these add-ons?
33:55
Yeah, so I think, I think the big ones people always talk
33:58
about, right, Like I want a way to display my ability
34:01
information, which a lot of people use weak wear packs for.
34:05
But I think the cooldown manager has kind of been their initial
34:07
answer. Obviously the first iteration of
34:10
the cool down manager was not great, but the update coming in
34:14
next patch 1125 looks solid and I expect this to get updated as
34:18
well over the next year or two. And I think it'll be in a
34:22
similar spot. It'll be able to replace
34:24
essentially those weak word packs, which I think is is a
34:27
good thing, right? It's, you know, lightweight in
34:30
the game included intuitive for people to use.
34:33
I think that's only a positive and that's also just my general
34:35
feeling about Blizzard adding these in game alternatives to
34:41
add-ons. I think it's only positive for
34:44
the game assuming they get them right before they turn off
34:48
combat add-ons, right? That's my that was my concern.
34:51
It looks like they are taking their time right?
34:54
They announced they're going to be adding I think what name
34:56
plates, damage meters and boss mods in midnight.
35:01
And it doesn't necessarily. Boss mods as a full package but
35:05
at least timers for. Timers yes, yes, yeah, but it
35:09
doesn't seem like they're turning off other add-ons at the
35:12
same time, right. It seems like they're going to
35:14
be in game and you know, getting iterations while we still have
35:21
access to other add-ons. So that is good because it gives
35:23
them time to actually make them usable as opposed to just
35:27
ripping away all our add-ons and us having what do we do here?
35:30
What is this so I'm I'm positive feeling about it.
35:36
They definitely need to make sure they get it right though,
35:37
right plater a big one you're talking about their name plates
35:40
apparently is going to show threat is what they were talking
35:43
about threat they were talking about I think back hits as well
35:45
like you will get an indicator on the name plates if a mob is
35:48
behind you attacking from behind.
35:50
That's amazing right like that. That is a great change for new
35:53
tank players that do not understand that if a mob is
35:55
behind you, you are not really effectively mitigating it at
35:58
all. Especially on certain tank specs
36:00
that rely on like block, Perrier, dog.
36:02
That's a great indicator. It's great for new players, it's
36:04
built into the game. Love it.
36:06
Are you going to be able to recolor certain plates?
36:10
Are you going to be able to just choose what debuffs and buffs
36:15
you show on it? Who knows, that could be
36:18
overlooked. I think it needs to be included
36:20
for it to be a viable nameplate solution and something you would
36:24
use over something like Plater, right?
36:26
The ability to recolor, the ability to emphasize, even to
36:30
make disappear for certain mobs, to whitelist and blacklist
36:34
certain debuffs and buffs. That kind of thing is all very,
36:36
very important because there are some specs, for example, that
36:39
blanket debuffs on mobs and you only really care about the
36:43
duration of one or two of them, right?
36:46
There's multi daughter specs and maybe you really want to know,
36:48
OK, I want all the name plates to be blue that have my shadow
36:51
word pane and then anything that's not blue, I know I need
36:54
to continue dotting it, right? Stuff like that I think needs to
36:58
be included, but we'll have to wait and see what the first
37:02
iteration of it was. The images I saw from the the
37:04
panel at Gamescon, they looked like they were much further
37:07
along on those than they were on the the cool down managers.
37:11
So that's a good sign. But yeah, we'll have to wait and
37:14
see. OK aren't there are some things
37:18
that weak ores and plater and everything include that some
37:24
people might consider superfluous?
37:26
One of the things that came out was not being able to track
37:31
externals cooldown. So like when you are going
37:35
through a Mythic Plus or when you are doing a raid, knowing
37:38
that you have abilities from your healers is something that a
37:42
lot of tanks use. Do you?
37:45
At one point Blizzard had sort of said, OK, that's not
37:48
something that we want you to have, But I think since then
37:53
they've sort of gone back against that.
37:55
Yeah, I think they backtracked it, if I remember correctly.
37:59
I don't, I don't remember 100%. But I mean, I definitely think
38:02
that's important to know because what is the value in hiding that
38:07
like there are some things where I'm like, OK, this makes sense.
38:10
Blizzard does not want us to have it.
38:12
An example, the spell CDs on name plates from little wigs and
38:17
big wigs, we're just right next to the mob.
38:19
Hey, this ability is going to be off cooldown for the next 24
38:22
seconds. I can see them being like, hey,
38:25
not only is this break immersion, we don't want you to
38:27
have this information. Don't you don't have that.
38:30
So they'd take it away, right? That that I would be totally
38:32
fine with. Taking away the ability to see
38:34
other people's cooldowns is a bit odd.
38:38
I don't want to hear that it's for some PvP reason.
38:41
I'm sure they can fix it for PvP, but like for Pve, I feel
38:45
like like if you're just communicating with the players
38:51
in voice for example, it's just another advantage to being in
38:56
voice versus in a pug environment.
38:57
Maybe people will just make macros that spam all the time,
39:00
you know what I mean? It's just there's no reason to
39:02
hide that information. I guess that's the point I'm
39:05
getting at. Yeah, I had suspected that if
39:07
they had stuck with their guns, we were going to get the
39:12
basically analogous thing to the macros where it would, when you
39:18
used it, it would send a command being like, it's on cooldown for
39:20
Bing, and then create A and create it anyways.
39:23
So I did think that there was a good way for them to stop it
39:26
without like, utterly shredding the API in general.
39:29
But yeah, my question was going to be, are there some things
39:32
where you're like, yeah, this is superfluous and if we don't have
39:35
it, we're still going to go along just fine?
39:39
There's certainly some weak aura stuff, right?
39:42
Like, and, and this also comes kind of hand in hand with their
39:45
encounter design where they're like, we have to design stuff
39:49
thinking that you're going to have weak auras, right?
39:51
Like we, if you look, we're progressing on Mythic Nexus King
39:54
right now, right? You get into phase three and
39:57
this map just pops up on your screen showing you exactly where
40:01
to drop your your stars where so that you'll get pulled to a
40:05
specific spot in the room. It's like.
40:07
Man, this boss would have been so much cooler if that didn't
40:10
exist, right? Like that, that kind of
40:12
functionality. Fractalis is the perfect
40:14
example. The Tetris boss that is just
40:17
solved by a text week aura that tells you where to stand at all
40:21
times, whether it's the safe spot, where to put a wall, where
40:24
to break a wall, it just tells you where to go.
40:27
That boss could have been way cooler if they maybe slowed it
40:29
down a little bit and you just didn't have that week aura, but
40:32
you just had to play the fight as they intended, right?
40:35
So I think, I think there are a lot of situations where we would
40:39
be better off with them removing some of the things we currently
40:42
have access to. One thing that they did provide
40:45
for us that is a little bit unique for tanks is the single
40:50
button rotation that helps DPS get to like a percentage of
40:56
their damage. It is something that very spec
40:58
to spec, but obviously that doesn't do much help for you as
41:03
a tank. Do you think that there's
41:04
something that they could add to help people learn tanking or do
41:10
you feel that the SPR is good enough as a start?
41:13
And it's like no, no, no, things happen.
41:16
You should learn how to manage it just from like raw effort.
41:22
Yeah, I mean, well, the single button rotation problem is that
41:24
it never presses anything off the global cooldown, right?
41:26
So it's like if you're playing a warrior, it's not pressing
41:30
shield block. I don't think it's pressing
41:31
ignore pane either, right? It's not pressing any of.
41:33
Your it doesn't press defensives or utility at all, Yeah.
41:36
Yeah. So it's like, I personally would
41:40
more recommend the rotation assist setting 'cause I think
41:44
that's a bit more, it's, it's also a better learning tool in
41:48
my opinion to see that abilities highlighted and kind of get a
41:51
feel for like the frequency of things.
41:52
I still don't know if that recommends defensive abilities,
41:55
to be honest with you. I haven't used it personally,
41:57
but I think that's just a, a better general thing for someone
42:00
trying to learn the game. Like if you don't care about
42:02
that stuff, go go to town with the one button assist.
42:05
But if you're trying to learn a spec, I actually think that's
42:09
bad to use the one button assist and you should use the rotation
42:12
assist instead, which is the highlighting thing.
42:15
I think that's a better learning tool.
42:18
But yeah, I mean, I wonder if there's like almost like
42:21
tutorial type things that they could do for for tank and healer
42:25
players because this thing doesn't really work for them as
42:30
well as it does for DPS players. You know, I know they said
42:32
they're redoing the whole tutorial island, I think in
42:37
midnight. But yeah, you know, giving some
42:40
sort of tank tutorial or healer tutorial I think would be
42:43
beneficial to get players into those roles which, you know, are
42:47
less popular. Yeah, I mean, I, I definitely
42:52
think that things like the interrupt tutorial that they're
42:55
speaking about and so forth are going to help some new players.
43:00
I worry that like returning players will say, oh, I don't
43:03
need that, not realizing how much the game has changed
43:06
because they're like, if you played in BC, yeah, crowd
43:10
control was king. If you play in like BFAAOE,
43:15
stops were king. If you play now, you can cause
43:19
havoc by just spamming AOE stops and and syncing them all up.
43:23
So learning that stuff as it changes is something that
43:28
Blizzard is going to have to make sure that they're updating
43:30
the tutorials along with that. But tutorials are definitely a
43:33
help. But looking at what you think
43:38
tanks would need, what do you think Blizzard should add to the
43:44
game to help tanks? And actually at the beginning of
43:50
the War Within, they spoke about a defensive clawback.
43:54
They had already said, OK, like healers are going wild and
43:57
dragonfly and we need to do some adjustments here.
44:00
They got into this, said, hey, next, next expansion, we're
44:03
looking at a defensive clawback. What do you expect from that?
44:08
Yeah, that's interesting. So they did mention at the
44:12
beginning of War Within. I'm glad you brought that up
44:14
because they have not mentioned it since then.
44:17
We'll have to see if they remembered or if they're just
44:20
like, oh, we don't have time for this.
44:22
Let's push that away. Because I think, I think this is
44:25
actually primarily focused not at tank players, right?
44:27
This is primarily focused at DPS players and healers where they
44:31
have too many defensive tools. And I think even the hero trees
44:35
were kind of a problem with that because every single hero tree
44:37
has an additional defensive node in it, which is kind of further
44:42
resulting in bursty healing profiles as opposed to rot
44:45
healing profiles, especially in raid.
44:47
Like you basically just playing putting all your cooldowns where
44:51
the burst damage happens and then you feel like a wet noodle
44:54
outside of your cooldown as a healer player is my
44:56
understanding. I don't do that.
44:57
I don't know what healers do, Who knows, but that's what
45:00
they're saying. And defensive bloat is a
45:04
contributor of that because they have to challenge for the amount
45:08
of defensiveness that your group is bringing, right?
45:12
We saw a similar thing in Mythic plus I think in Dragon fight
45:14
season 2 where you had the one shot meta where like you went at
45:19
a certain key level. Maybe it was season 3 actually,
45:21
I can't remember off the top of my head.
45:22
But like at a certain key level, it went from, oh, all this
45:27
damage is kind of free and literally one key level up.
45:29
Oh, everything is one shot in me.
45:32
And all of a sudden you had to come up with a defensive
45:34
rotation to cover every single ability and the meta comp could.
45:38
And if you didn't have that, you would just die to those
45:41
abilities, right? So it's, it's, that's clearly
45:44
what they're trying to avoid. Cuz that has never been as bad
45:46
as it was that season. And they've been doing better
45:48
with it. But yeah, I think the further
45:51
you go in expansion, the more problematic it seems to become.
45:56
I'm curious if the stat squish will do anything in that sense.
46:01
Cuz obviously they've announced there is going to be a stat
46:03
squish in midnight. So that might help.
46:06
I, I don't know. But yeah, it would be
46:07
interesting to see if they, the, the number of abilities they end
46:11
up pruning defensively from classes like mages are a great
46:14
example. They have like 5000 defensive
46:17
buttons, right? Are they going to leave them
46:19
with only like ice block and alter time and take away
46:24
everything else? It's possible, but it wondered
46:27
it's, it's just kind of how far they want to go with it, which
46:31
it's going to be very interesting.
46:33
On the tank front though, I am kind of under the assumption
46:36
that tanks are going to be excluded from this, but but who
46:39
knows, maybe not. Maybe we'll get collateral too.
46:43
I, I think it is a very strange thing to look at and I really
46:47
wanted to start this conversation with the tanks
46:49
because defensives are so important to you.
46:52
There's a number of things that you kind of look at.
46:55
There is the like if you have a tank death that might mean a
46:59
wipe because by the time that rez goes out the tank can get
47:01
the threat again. 2-3 DPS have already bid it.
47:06
There's also a matter of the fact that DPS and tanks and all
47:11
the specs have a lot of the utility and defensives on their
47:17
class tree, which means that if you're going to attack those,
47:22
it's going to affect the tanks in in turn.
47:24
Unless they do what they did with Paladins when they did the
47:28
Paladin revamp and they had a lot of this stuff on.
47:31
The classes actually differ based on your spec.
47:35
If they were to do a defensive claw and it did affect tanks, do
47:40
you think that it's, I guess going back to the early
47:43
conversation, do you think it's something where it's going to
47:46
have to be pared back enough in effectiveness that your
47:51
tankiness is not so far above DPS and healers outside of your
47:58
cooldowns? Or pull back the cooldowns so
48:01
that you don't have to have a cooldown ready at all times.
48:06
Yeah, I'm definitely more in favor of you just generally
48:10
being like your cooldowns being a little bit weaker and you
48:14
being baseline a bit stronger. Like I think a great example was
48:18
like Venthier Guardian Druid in Shadow Lands where you were just
48:23
a beast for 30 seconds in your cooldowns and then you could
48:27
have just done anything you wanted in the 2 1/2 minutes
48:30
between that and your next incarn and it would have made no
48:34
difference whatsoever. That is the worst as a tank,
48:37
like like especially like, Oh yeah, I'm going to pull 4 packs
48:41
together at once. We do that all right.
48:42
Now I am pulling a singular pack at a time and I'm scared for my
48:46
life, right? Like this one singular pack is
48:49
absolutely owning me. I just that that is like the
48:52
worst thing for me about these cool down reliant tanks.
48:56
And, and to be fair to Blizzard, they've moved drastically away
48:59
from that right? It's we're nowhere near that
49:01
situation anymore and I prefer it that way.
49:05
I prefer not having the massive cooldown reliance, especially
49:08
when it comes to survivability. And it just kind of depends on
49:12
the number of tools that spec has as well, right?
49:15
Like some specs are built around you chaining a bunch of
49:18
cooldowns, some aren't. And I think that's also fine to
49:21
have these varying play styles. Paladin is that example, right?
49:25
Like Paladin is all about chaining your cooldowns together
49:29
to kind of build this cohesive defensive layer at all times.
49:33
And you are going to have some downtime on those and you kind
49:37
of need to, you know, figure out what am I going to do to solve
49:40
those moments of downtime? And it's kind of an interesting
49:43
puzzle. Now, is it a bit too challenging
49:46
and maybe a bit too far with the defensive terms they've received
49:48
already? Maybe.
49:50
But I, I enjoy that kind of play style and I also enjoy the big
49:55
burst play style like something like prop warrior, right, where
49:59
you know your main cooldown avatar is just just pure damage,
50:03
right? And your defensive abilities are
50:04
generally more shorter cooldown stuff that you can kind of use
50:08
as needed. All of shield wall, spell
50:10
reflect and demo shout short cooldown, but you're not
50:14
layering them right because you have this baseline defense of
50:17
shield block that is very, very strong to incoming damage,
50:21
especially when paired with ignore pain.
50:23
So it's like I I don't mind the differences between specs and I
50:27
think they're actually important to to maintain no matter what
50:29
they do with defensives that you don't make everything too samey,
50:33
if that makes sense. No, that definitely makes sense.
50:37
OK, so then we're we're running a little bit low on time, so I
50:40
just want to throw some quick fire at you in midnight.
50:44
We're gonna get Apex talents. Yeah.
50:47
And so I'm not gonna get you to guess what the Apex talent is,
50:50
but if you could solve each each class's weakness with their Apex
50:57
talent, what would be the general idea?
51:00
How would you help tanks with their Apex talent?
51:04
Oh, I mean, that's that's tough. So I think I think OK, here,
51:10
here. So for vengeance Stephen Hunter,
51:12
it's just your threat done is increased by 1000%.
51:16
OK, that's my vengeance team Hunter one for blood decays.
51:21
We'll we'll fix their AOE damage intake.
51:23
Yeah, just like the more mobs you're fighting, you get like, I
51:27
don't know, 10% increased armor or something like that.
51:32
I I don't know, making it up right make.
51:34
It up, yeah. Guardian Druid something not
51:41
incarn related. I'm begging just not incarn
51:45
related. Please, please pick something
51:48
else. Paladin.
51:53
Paladin is interesting. I'm actually not really sure
51:58
what you would do with Paladin something not related to
52:03
consecrate. How's that not consecrate
52:06
related? Something else?
52:09
A lot of something not they something they shouldn't do as
52:12
opposed to something they should do here.
52:16
What it what I'm missing Brewmaster and I'm missing oh
52:20
prot warrior? Let's do Brewmaster first.
52:24
Brewmaster first. OK, I don't know if I'm
52:25
qualified to talk about brewmaster.
52:29
Let's say Brewmaster. So because they they all love Ox
52:35
so much, let's just say something about about Ox just to
52:39
make all the actual Brewmaster Manes very mad at me.
52:44
The ox gets up and follows you. Pet class.
52:48
Wait, yes, it makes Brewmaster a pet class.
52:51
That's what I'm doing, yes. So you just have perma ox and
52:56
yeah, no, that's good. I like that.
53:00
And then prompt warrior, just give him spell block back.
53:03
There you go. Spell block, Yeah.
53:05
Apex talent we gave you back spell block.
53:07
Yeah, it's good. There we go.
53:10
OK, thank you so much for this. I, I wish we had more time, but
53:17
we've got a lot coming up in midnight.
53:19
I'm sure as we get closer to the alpha that will be in the coming
53:24
weeks, we're going to get a lot more information and see where
53:27
things go. Thank you so much for being on
53:30
the show today. And tactics.
53:31
Where can people find you when you are not riling up poor brew
53:34
masters? Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm tactics
53:38
TACTYKS on on pretty much all platforms on on YouTube is where
53:43
I post a lot of guide content for dungeons, raid and tanks
53:46
stream on YouTube and on Twitch. I randomly tweet stuff on on
53:51
Twitter as well. So yeah, it turns out if you
53:54
spell your name incorrectly, you can just get it on all
53:56
platforms. Let's go.
53:59
That is awesome. And then for me, I chose to
54:02
spell my name incorrectly as well, so I have it on all
54:04
platforms. You can find me as true Villa
54:07
Manny. That's true without the E on all
54:10
platforms. And until next time guys, may
54:12
all your hits be crits.