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Christian Parenting by Wisdom, Not Checklists · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

0:01
Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly propicient at telling stories that
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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become
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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.
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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,
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Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the
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Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions
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Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto
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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this
0:31
Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian and doctor James Spencer. I'm joined
0:34
Speaker 1: by doctor Ashish Marma, and today we're going to continue
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Speaker 1: our conversation about Christian manhood. We're taking a slightly different
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Speaker 1: direction because Father's Day is coming up, and so we're
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Speaker 1: going to talk a little bit about men as fathers,
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Speaker 1: men in the.
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Speaker 2: Role of fathers.
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Speaker 1: And to do that, we're going to take a look
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Speaker 1: at Ephesians five and six. Primarily, we're going to start
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Speaker 1: in Ephesians five fifteen through twenty one, which really is
0:55
Speaker 1: the prologue, let's say, or the beginning of a section
1:01
Speaker 1: that discusses the relationships between various different roles within the
1:06
Speaker 1: Christian community. So husband's wives, children, parents, and master's servants.
1:13
Speaker 1: But five point fifteen through twenty one really does begin
1:16
Speaker 1: to set this up. And so to begin this episode,
1:18
Speaker 1: I'll just read through this and then we're going to
1:20
Speaker 1: have a little discussion on it, and then we'll jump
1:22
Speaker 1: over to chapter six, which is where fathers and sons
1:26
Speaker 1: are fathers and children are really addressed. So here's Ephesians
1:29
Speaker 1: five fifteen through twenty one. Look carefully, then, how you walk,
1:33
Speaker 1: not as unwise, but as wise, making the best use
1:36
Speaker 1: of the time, because the days are evil. Therefore to
1:39
Speaker 1: not be foolish, but understand what the will of the
1:41
Speaker 1: Lord is. And do not get drunk with wine, for
1:43
Speaker 1: that is debauchery. But be filled with the spirit, addressing
1:47
Speaker 1: one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing
1:51
Speaker 1: and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving
1:53
Speaker 1: thanks always and for everything to God the Father, in
1:56
Speaker 1: the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one
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Speaker 1: another of reverence for Christ. That's where we're going to start,
2:04
Speaker 1: and this sets the context for everything we're going to
2:06
Speaker 1: say really about being a father going forward. So any
2:13
Speaker 1: initial thoughts on this section.
2:16
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the it's important to note that all of
2:19
Speaker 3: these these parts of the passage that are easy to
2:24
Speaker 3: separate out are really flowing one from from one to
2:28
Speaker 3: the next, right, Like we're working from five point fifteen forward,
2:35
Speaker 3: and then we're picking up at the beginning of chapter six.
2:40
Speaker 3: We're not skipping over the husbands and wives part at
2:43
Speaker 3: this particular moment, or the masters and slaves part for
2:45
Speaker 3: any other reason. Then they're really blocking. They're getting to
2:49
Speaker 3: the same pathos of what this formation as people who
2:55
Speaker 3: are to imitate Christ look like. But the dynamics of
3:01
Speaker 3: exactly how that look in different relationships are what at
3:06
Speaker 3: play here. Right, So the way that one might work
3:09
Speaker 3: in an employment setting and how that might look like
3:11
Speaker 3: to have the mind of Christ is different than one
3:15
Speaker 3: might have towards a spouse in kind, but not in pathos,
3:20
Speaker 3: And the way that looks as a parent, you know,
3:23
Speaker 3: it's going to have a sort of a different sort
3:24
Speaker 3: of authority structure than between a spouse. The parent is
3:29
Speaker 3: a parent, not a friend, right, and the child is
3:32
Speaker 3: the child, not a friend. But the same underlying reality
3:38
Speaker 3: of being wise of having the mind of Christ is
3:40
Speaker 3: what's a play. So this is really what Paul's trying
3:43
Speaker 3: to parse out for the church and ephesis in ways
3:45
Speaker 3: that we've talked about of about paradigms or patterns, where
3:52
Speaker 3: we have to discern what does that pattern look like
3:55
Speaker 3: in the present in our places. And the key here
3:58
Speaker 3: is to be four by the mind of Christ in
4:01
Speaker 3: a way that it's going to it's going to bring
4:02
Speaker 3: forth the wisdom. And I think that dynamic of wisdom
4:05
Speaker 3: is something we're going to keep bringing up, should keep
4:07
Speaker 3: bringing up.
4:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that when we think about wisdom,
4:11
Speaker 1: you know, Old Testament context, wisdom is really understanding we
4:14
Speaker 1: could we can summarize it as understanding how to live
4:17
Speaker 1: before a holy God, how to live maybe under God's authority.
4:21
Speaker 1: I would say it's deeply, you know, conceptually connected to
4:24
Speaker 1: something like a discipleship. Right, We're constantly learning to live
4:28
Speaker 1: in light of reality, and that reality is particularly the
4:32
Speaker 1: reality of the trying God. And so I think that
4:35
Speaker 1: wisdom here is, Look, let's understand the context. You're no
4:40
Speaker 1: longer in the world in the sense that you are
4:44
Speaker 1: trapped and controlled and under the influence of the systems
4:48
Speaker 1: and structures of the society in which you live, and
4:51
Speaker 1: these are the only possibilities you have because now you
4:54
Speaker 1: have been connected to the God who is capable of
4:59
Speaker 1: doing abundantly more than you could ever ask or think.
5:01
Speaker 2: That's Ephesians three ten. Right.
5:03
Speaker 1: So you've got this new vista of opportunities opened up,
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Speaker 1: and what that requires of you is to live into
5:10
Speaker 1: those things, to live wisely as opposed to unwisely. And
5:14
Speaker 1: we sort of see that dichotomy here in fifteen through
5:17
Speaker 1: twenty one. We see it with the do not get
5:19
Speaker 1: drunk with wine, for that as debauchery, but be filled
5:21
Speaker 1: with the spirit. There's a different control mechanism that should
5:27
Speaker 1: be part of your life. It shouldn't be the wine.
5:30
Speaker 1: You shouldn't be allowing the wine to change your behavior
5:34
Speaker 1: in such a way that you lose control of yourself.
5:36
Speaker 1: What you should be doing is handing over that control
5:38
Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit, allowing the Holy Spirit to fill you.
5:41
Speaker 1: And what comes out of that is then addressing one
5:44
Speaker 1: another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and
5:46
Speaker 1: make a melody all over the heart, giving thanks always
5:49
Speaker 1: and everything in the name of God the Father, and
5:51
Speaker 1: then submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.
5:55
Speaker 1: That last phrase, submitting to one another out of reverence
5:58
Speaker 1: for Christ is au and what we understand to be
6:01
Speaker 1: carried through the rest of chapter five and into chapter six.
6:07
Speaker 2: And I would just make one comment on that.
6:08
Speaker 1: Number One, I think all of these from verse nineteen
6:12
Speaker 1: all the way through twenty one are intended to give
6:15
Speaker 1: us a picture of the sort of relationships we're supposed
6:17
Speaker 1: to have. Right These are supposed to be God honoring relationships,
6:24
Speaker 1: things that are constantly pointing to and glorifying the Lord God.
6:28
Speaker 1: But I think the submission aspect is important for a
6:31
Speaker 1: couple of reasons. Number One, it's connected to the reverence
6:34
Speaker 1: of Christ. And so sometimes it's easy for us to
6:37
Speaker 1: think in terms of especially as we're talking about the
6:39
Speaker 1: male female relationships, but I would also say the husband
6:41
Speaker 1: or the father son relationships. It's easy to think about
6:45
Speaker 1: the submission part. Right one is to be submissive to
6:49
Speaker 1: the other. My kids should listen to me, because I'm
6:52
Speaker 1: the dad and I have the authority and I know better.
6:56
Speaker 2: That submission part.
6:57
Speaker 1: Is easy to think about. What I think is difficult
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Speaker 1: to think about is out of reverence for Christ. So
7:05
Speaker 1: when I think of that phrase, I think of then
7:07
Speaker 1: a reorientation of the relationship I have with my children
7:11
Speaker 1: because that relationship emerges out of my relationship with Christ.
7:17
Speaker 1: I'm doing these things out of reverence for Jesus, and
7:21
Speaker 1: thus it is a constant characteristic, not something situational.
7:25
Speaker 2: It's not manipulative.
7:28
Speaker 1: It's a constant disposition that I carry with me that
7:32
Speaker 1: out of reverence for Christ, I am going to act
7:34
Speaker 1: in a certain way, even if acting in a certain
7:36
Speaker 1: way is not affecting the behaviors that I would like
7:39
Speaker 1: it to affect.
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Speaker 2: I don't get the.
7:42
Speaker 1: Opportunity to, as we'll see in chapter six, provoke my
7:46
Speaker 1: children to anger just to make something work right.
7:51
Speaker 2: If I'm doing this out of reverence for.
7:52
Speaker 1: Christ, I'm constantly responding to Him from within this situation,
7:56
Speaker 1: as opposed to responding to the situation as if he
7:59
Speaker 1: were absent or irrelevant. And so I think the father's
8:03
Speaker 1: commitment to Christ is out of reverence for Christ is
8:06
Speaker 1: paramount in this whole section. The husband, the father, the
8:10
Speaker 1: master servant, all of these are ordered to a reverence
8:15
Speaker 1: to Christ. And out of that reverence for Christ, then
8:18
Speaker 1: come these other behaviors in relation to the other party.
8:24
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I want to pivot specifically to how what
8:28
Speaker 3: you're describing is in some ways a gloss on this.
8:32
Speaker 3: Be wise, don't be foolish, Yeah, because it's worth noting
8:37
Speaker 3: that there's not actually much content that's on display here.
8:43
Speaker 2: Yeah.
8:43
Speaker 3: So what does it mean to not provoke your child? Right? Or,
8:47
Speaker 3: as the First Nation's translation says, don't make them angry,
8:54
Speaker 3: don't push them too hard so that they become angry. Well,
8:59
Speaker 3: that really is an impossible generalization to make, right. We
9:04
Speaker 3: have multiple children and they have their own personalities.
9:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, I could.
9:11
Speaker 3: I know how I could make my kids angry. I
9:14
Speaker 3: also know the degree to which I can push them,
9:18
Speaker 3: and I know how to push them. Yeah, but I
9:21
Speaker 3: know how to push them in a way that you know,
9:23
Speaker 3: there's a way of pushing them that can force them
9:27
Speaker 3: in some sense to lose their center where it's it's
9:31
Speaker 3: now counterproductive, And there's a way to push them that
9:35
Speaker 3: motivates them. Right, And that just comes from acquaintance, It
9:40
Speaker 3: comes from being their parents and understanding their personalities. Right.
9:44
Speaker 3: I gathered a long time ago that my oldest kid
9:47
Speaker 3: has my has my for better or worse, deep competitiveness.
9:53
Speaker 3: And if I want to motivate him, just simply trying
9:56
Speaker 3: to persuade him is going to get me nowhere, right,
9:59
Speaker 3: he's he's stubborn. If he's made up his mind, he's
10:03
Speaker 3: made up his mind unless you can stoke those competitive juices.
10:08
Speaker 3: So sometimes it's just a matter of going to the
10:11
Speaker 3: second born and getting her involved in something, and suddenly
10:14
Speaker 3: he's got this sense of oh, I can't let her
10:18
Speaker 3: get ahead of me, I can't let her beat me,
10:20
Speaker 3: And now he's after it right, right, And that's just
10:24
Speaker 3: a matter of knowing who they are, right and what
10:29
Speaker 3: we're being called to here doesn't have the content because
10:32
Speaker 3: I think Paul understands, and light of the fact that
10:34
Speaker 3: he begins the discourse with being wise, don't be foolish,
10:38
Speaker 3: is that there's no one way to do that right.
10:41
Speaker 3: And I think that's sometimes where we get into trouble
10:43
Speaker 3: when we think of especially when we think about conversations
10:46
Speaker 3: and masculinity. It's a very prescribed way of thinking, and
10:50
Speaker 3: therefore it's a very prescribed way of motivating, and that
10:54
Speaker 3: pushing might work for one person one child, that doesn't
10:58
Speaker 3: work for the other. And there's where the wisdom comes in.
11:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, right, Yeah, it's interesting. My wife and I have
11:07
Speaker 1: so my son.
11:11
Speaker 2: We've kind of joke it isn't exactly how this works.
11:14
Speaker 1: But jokingly, my wife generally handles my son and I
11:18
Speaker 1: generally handled my daughters, just the way the personalities fell, right.
11:25
Speaker 1: She's got a better temperament to deal with my son
11:27
Speaker 1: usually and understands how his mind works and what he's
11:31
Speaker 1: trying to do and how he thinks better than I do.
11:35
Speaker 1: And alternatively, I generally have a better sense of how
11:38
Speaker 1: to handle the girls and help them along and like
11:43
Speaker 1: give them appropriate challenges and those kind of things.
11:46
Speaker 2: And so we've had that dichotomy.
11:47
Speaker 1: We have a lot of conversations in our household about
11:50
Speaker 1: how to go about parenting, and we often have different
11:54
Speaker 1: ways of doing that.
11:56
Speaker 2: You know, Kim is just by nature.
12:00
Speaker 1: She was an overachiever in school, maybe just a normal
12:03
Speaker 1: achiever in school.
12:04
Speaker 2: Maybe I was an underachiever. It's probably the better way
12:07
Speaker 2: to say it. You know.
12:09
Speaker 1: She wasn't afraid to try, and she really put a
12:13
Speaker 1: lot of effort in the things, and so when she
12:16
Speaker 1: sees the kids doing less than that effort, sometimes she's
12:21
Speaker 1: really frustrated by it. Whereas I kind of sit back
12:23
Speaker 1: and I'm like, listen, I learned a lot through non effort, right,
12:26
Speaker 1: I earned valuable lessons getting c's in certain classes, right, Like,
12:31
Speaker 1: I get how this works. And so sometimes you just
12:34
Speaker 1: have to let this play out because pushing them isn't
12:36
Speaker 1: going to help. And so there's this one story we've
12:40
Speaker 1: told the numerous times in our household where I had
12:43
Speaker 1: already taken the act and my mom was adamant that
12:47
Speaker 1: I take the SAT as well. The sit happened to
12:50
Speaker 1: land on the day of prom or some dance I
12:53
Speaker 1: don't remember. It was a problem that might be a
12:55
Speaker 1: mythical thing, but anyway, it was some dance that I
12:58
Speaker 1: was going to.
13:00
Speaker 3: So it sounds good for the story.
13:01
Speaker 1: It sounds good for the story. So I was like, Mom,
13:04
Speaker 1: I don't need to tell Like I already had the
13:06
Speaker 1: act score. It was good, no problem, Like, I don't
13:08
Speaker 1: need to do this. This is this is ridiculous.
13:10
Speaker 2: I'm not going to do this. She's like, yeah, you're
13:11
Speaker 2: doing it. So she drove me to the place. I
13:13
Speaker 2: went in.
13:14
Speaker 1: I literally filled c down the whole way. I was
13:16
Speaker 1: done it about twenty minutes and I came out. She's like, well,
13:19
Speaker 1: how to go. I'm like, oh, I think it went
13:20
Speaker 1: pretty bad. I mean I tanked those SAPs like nobody's business.
13:25
Speaker 1: But it was one of those things where I think,
13:28
Speaker 1: you know, looking back on it, I wasn't honoring her
13:30
Speaker 1: at all, right, and what she was really trying to
13:33
Speaker 1: get me to do, but she was also pushing me
13:36
Speaker 1: past these points, right, and not really giving me the
13:40
Speaker 1: leash to sort of say, Okay, you know, I shouldn't
13:43
Speaker 1: push him this far because this is not going.
13:45
Speaker 2: To go well.
13:46
Speaker 1: And so I think we both learned a little lesson there,
13:48
Speaker 1: me more in retrospect than her. But but it was
13:52
Speaker 1: an interesting point, like I think there are these things
13:55
Speaker 1: that you do have to learn about your kids.
13:57
Speaker 2: How far can you push them?
14:00
Speaker 1: Where are they going? Where is it going to make
14:02
Speaker 1: it hard for them to really honor you? And is
14:06
Speaker 1: there a good reason to push them beyond that point?
14:10
Speaker 2: You know?
14:10
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's where it kind of gets
14:12
Speaker 1: to do, because they are going to be angry at
14:14
Speaker 1: you sometimes.
14:15
Speaker 2: Right.
14:15
Speaker 1: That's the only pushback i'd give on that first Nation
14:18
Speaker 1: translation is I think your kids are going to be
14:20
Speaker 1: angry with you at some point.
14:23
Speaker 3: That's okay, It's okay, yeah, right.
14:26
Speaker 1: I would just say, I think what the heart of
14:28
Speaker 1: this in what we're talking about is six' one through,
14:31
Speaker 1: four you, know in verse, Four, fathers do not provoke
14:34
Speaker 1: your children to, anger but bring them up in the
14:37
Speaker 1: discipline and instruction of The. Lord WHAT i think is
14:39
Speaker 1: going on there, is do not provoke your children to
14:43
Speaker 1: anger such that it becomes impossible for them to honor, you,
14:48
Speaker 1: right don't don't necessarily anger, them but bring them up
14:53
Speaker 1: in the discipline and instruction of The. Lord that's not often.
14:55
Speaker 1: COMFORTABLE i, mean if we've all experienced The lord's discipline and,
14:59
Speaker 1: instruction it's not like we ache for that. Necessarily it'd
15:03
Speaker 1: be great if you just thought we were amazing as,
15:05
Speaker 1: Is but you, know occasionally discipline and instruction is, necessary
15:10
Speaker 1: and it's not always. Comfortable and SO i think there's
15:13
Speaker 1: a sense here in which we just want to make
15:14
Speaker 1: sure we're not. Reading don't ever trigger your kids right
15:19
Speaker 1: right opposed, two don't push them so far that they're
15:23
Speaker 1: not going to be able to honor you, anymore to
15:25
Speaker 1: fulfill that role of child within the.
15:29
Speaker 3: Relationship, Yeah so What i'm hearing is there's there are
15:34
Speaker 3: two swings of the. Pendulum on one end of the,
15:37
Speaker 3: swing there's the kind of parenting that it's just constantly
15:43
Speaker 3: writing your, child, yeah and then there's the other end
15:48
Speaker 3: of the pendulum where one's so worried about writing their
15:52
Speaker 3: child that they don't push them at. All, yeah and
15:58
Speaker 3: and the kid might get upset by the push if
16:01
Speaker 3: you're never pushing. Them and If i'm hearing you, correctly that's,
16:06
Speaker 3: okay that's not that's not really the point. Here the
16:10
Speaker 3: point here is there can there be a recognition maybe,
16:14
Speaker 3: sometime maybe it's a long time down the line of,
16:17
Speaker 3: wow you you really were seeking what was best for,
16:21
Speaker 3: me and what's best for? Me wasn't just this idea
16:25
Speaker 3: of and maybe this is the instructive. Point isn't just
16:28
Speaker 3: simply this idea of WHAT i? Want but it's about
16:33
Speaker 3: training your child specifically to be the sort of people
16:36
Speaker 3: that can then themselves as they grow up in their
16:40
Speaker 3: new relations and their new and there new ways of
16:44
Speaker 3: relating to people as an older person had the mind Of.
16:49
Speaker 3: Christ that's. Right so you, know there was That there
16:57
Speaker 3: was that documentary that came out a few years, Ago
16:59
Speaker 3: The Last Day. Ants, yeah that ended up being initially
17:03
Speaker 3: it was billed as The Last dance of The Chicago,
17:06
Speaker 3: bulls but really it was The Michael jordan, documentary, Right
17:09
Speaker 3: and a lot of controversy came out of, that you,
17:11
Speaker 3: know growing up the big, Bulls Michael jordan VAN i
17:15
Speaker 3: was in my. Element BUT i also realized pretty quickly
17:20
Speaker 3: things that were new to a lot of people weren't
17:22
Speaker 3: so new to me as growing up in The chicago
17:24
Speaker 3: area and having access, to you, know the stories of
17:29
Speaker 3: what was going on behind the. Scenes.
17:31
Speaker 2: Right but like the.
17:33
Speaker 3: Revelation to many Was Michael jordan's kind of a, jerk
17:37
Speaker 3: yeah you? Know AND i, thought, unabashedly so, Yeah and
17:44
Speaker 3: that wasn't really new to, me but it was instructive
17:47
Speaker 3: to me BECAUSE I i have to confess THAT i
17:53
Speaker 3: empathized With Michael jordan's. PERSONALITY i was the guy on
17:56
Speaker 3: my basketball team who rode people BECAUSE i, thought you're
18:01
Speaker 3: not really putting the effort in yeah you. Know and
18:07
Speaker 3: not everyone responded the same. WAY i remember one, teammate
18:12
Speaker 3: especially WHEN i WAS i was the captain of the
18:13
Speaker 3: team my last, year and one of my teammates responded
18:17
Speaker 3: really well to, that and he was a really good.
18:21
Speaker 3: Player by the end of the, YEAR i had another
18:26
Speaker 3: teammate who was ready to leave the, team AND i
18:31
Speaker 3: didn't have the wisdom at seventeen eighteen to be able
18:34
Speaker 3: to recognize maybe there's one approach for one person and
18:38
Speaker 3: not for the, other, right, Right and that's something that
18:45
Speaker 3: retrospectively was the training THAT i think of my. COACH
18:48
Speaker 3: i had a really good coach that. Year he interestingly
18:53
Speaker 3: enough that the player THAT i rode that it worked
18:56
Speaker 3: really well on was the coach's, son and he was
19:00
Speaker 3: more than happy to let me ride his. Son but
19:03
Speaker 3: with this other kid who just it didn't work, well
19:06
Speaker 3: he would step in and he wouldn't step in a
19:08
Speaker 3: way to, SAY i want to take away that, fire
19:13
Speaker 3: but he stepped in a way that was very, distinctively
19:16
Speaker 3: this guy doesn't respond to. That so let's put a
19:19
Speaker 3: little bit of a gap between you and, him and
19:21
Speaker 3: the way that you're doing that in a way That
19:23
Speaker 3: i'm not going to put a gap between you and my,
19:25
Speaker 3: son because he responds well to it and he's becoming
19:29
Speaker 3: a better. Player AND i think AS i started to
19:31
Speaker 3: learn that son wasn't responding to his father's, teaching just
19:35
Speaker 3: because sometimes kids just, Don't, Yeah and so that kind
19:39
Speaker 3: of became a way for, him and that was really good,
19:41
Speaker 3: parenting is What i'm getting out, here right on his,
19:43
Speaker 3: part not just in the way that he managed, me
19:46
Speaker 3: who wasn't his, son but we had a really good.
19:49
Speaker 3: Relationship but actually the way in which he managed his
19:52
Speaker 3: own son by, saying you know, what sometimes It's i'm
19:56
Speaker 3: going to step back And i'm going to let captain
19:59
Speaker 3: of the basketball team here ride you in a way
20:01
Speaker 3: THAT i know you're going to respond to him that
20:03
Speaker 3: you won't respond to. Me that was, wisdom you, Know
20:07
Speaker 3: and Maybe Michael jordan had that wisdom as. WELL i
20:10
Speaker 3: don't know we had the. Documentary we weren't on the inside,
20:12
Speaker 3: circles BUT i think about that of at least the
20:15
Speaker 3: way it was presented of some of those guys didn't
20:17
Speaker 3: appreciate it so. Much no, right but they did. Wow
20:22
Speaker 3: but they did. Win they did, win and maybe that's
20:25
Speaker 3: the solve all for. That but for our purposes, here
20:28
Speaker 3: it's it's a recognizing that there was a time and a,
20:31
Speaker 3: place as we saw in that documentary From Michael jordan's,
20:34
Speaker 3: approach and there was a time and a place For
20:35
Speaker 3: Scottie pippen's. Approach in my, case my coach sort of
20:40
Speaker 3: embodied both of. Those and that's where the wisdom, is,
20:43
Speaker 3: Right and what you want ultimately is for your kid
20:45
Speaker 3: to grow up to also have that, wisdom. RIGHT i
20:48
Speaker 3: want all of my four, kids if they have, kids
20:51
Speaker 3: to recognize that not all their kids are not the,
20:53
Speaker 3: same and all my kids have different struggles and all
20:57
Speaker 3: they have different, strengths and you got to work. Accordingly
21:01
Speaker 3: AND i think that's kind of the motive That paul's
21:04
Speaker 3: working with. Here, sorry go, Ahead.
21:06
Speaker 1: No it's been. Interesting you, know we have three, kids
21:09
Speaker 1: three biological. Children we've had our with us their whole,
21:12
Speaker 1: lives and then we've had numerous foster kids over the,
21:17
Speaker 1: years and then we just.
21:18
Speaker 2: Adopted she was four at the, time she's now.
21:20
Speaker 1: Five we haven't had them for their whole, lives, Right,
21:26
Speaker 1: like they had a history before. Us read this book
21:31
Speaker 1: Called The Body keeps The, score which is really an interesting.
21:35
Speaker 2: Book have you read?
21:36
Speaker 3: IT i, Have, yeah.
21:39
Speaker 1: Fascinating book and what you AND i can't summarize it
21:44
Speaker 1: all in a couple of, sentences but part of what
21:47
Speaker 1: you learn is that trauma sticks with, you and so
21:50
Speaker 1: these things like you, know you get you, know we
21:52
Speaker 1: got this little girl when she was. Three she'd had
21:55
Speaker 1: a history before. Us some of that was very difficult.
21:59
Speaker 1: Living no abuse, necessarily but there are these developmental stages
22:06
Speaker 1: that you go through as a. Child you hear about
22:09
Speaker 1: it with you, Know Eastern block orphanages where kids don't
22:13
Speaker 1: get held and they develop attachment disorders and things like.
22:16
Speaker 1: That and so there are all these different sort of
22:19
Speaker 1: developmental stages that kids go, through and when they miss,
22:22
Speaker 1: that they don't just automatically catch those, up like it
22:25
Speaker 1: tends to stick with. Them thus the body keeps the.
22:28
Speaker 1: Score and So i'm having to adapt the WAY i
22:35
Speaker 1: father her to h pretty drastically from the way THAT
22:42
Speaker 1: i fathered my own. Kids, right the ones who are with,
22:45
Speaker 1: you you, know they get used to the, sarcasm they
22:48
Speaker 1: get used to the you, know they get used to
22:52
Speaker 1: dad being. Dad but the five year old needs something
22:56
Speaker 1: a little. Different and, so like she came in yesterday
22:59
Speaker 1: and was, like, HEY i cut my, hair And i'm, like,
23:04
Speaker 1: well that's probably not.
23:05
Speaker 2: Good you.
23:06
Speaker 1: Know in my, Head i'm, like what the, heck, Right
23:08
Speaker 1: i'm just trying to get a workout. In you're out
23:10
Speaker 1: there cutting your hair, Off like what is?
23:11
Speaker 2: Happening and SO i.
23:15
Speaker 1: Had to like think through my response to, that like
23:17
Speaker 1: what do you do here to make it clear that
23:20
Speaker 1: she can't cut her own? Hair and she probably shouldn't
23:22
Speaker 1: be cutting any of her body parts, right seems like a,
23:26
Speaker 1: corollary but without like creating a context where she doesn't
23:31
Speaker 1: now feel, safe like those old feelings of insecurity and
23:36
Speaker 1: abandonment don't come back. In it's been a very i would,
23:41
Speaker 1: say difficult parenting, challenge, right because you, know with my,
23:45
Speaker 1: kids it's, like, Okay i'm never letting you touch scissors,
23:49
Speaker 1: Again like this is. Crazy you're LUCKY i don't shave your, head,
23:53
Speaker 1: right you, know like like those are things you can
23:55
Speaker 1: say when they're own. Children they've been with you, forever
23:57
Speaker 1: and it's like they have safety and security and now
24:00
Speaker 1: just know, like, OOPS i did something, wrong and dad's
24:02
Speaker 1: a little. Miffed but with a new, kid Like i'm
24:05
Speaker 1: happy to watch a little bit more. Carefully and so
24:10
Speaker 1: it's interesting and it does require a certain degree of
24:14
Speaker 1: thinking through to make, sure as we see here In ephesian,
24:17
Speaker 1: six Then i'm not provoking that child to.
24:19
Speaker 2: Anger in other, words That i'm not.
24:21
Speaker 1: So alienating this, child so pushing her away and making
24:26
Speaker 1: her develop a distrust of me that will ultimately mean
24:32
Speaker 1: that she can't really honor. Me and so how do
24:38
Speaker 1: you bring someone up in the discipline and instruction of The. Lord,
24:41
Speaker 1: well that's not a set. Box there's no checklist or
24:44
Speaker 1: recipe for. That you're having to sort of massage this
24:48
Speaker 1: into the personality of the, individual as opposed to treating
24:52
Speaker 1: all five year olds as if they're just all five year.
24:54
Speaker 3: Olds. Right WHAT i especially learned from story is the
25:01
Speaker 3: effectiveness of the threat from a parent That i'm going
25:03
Speaker 3: to shave your. Head my mother growing, up her threat
25:08
Speaker 3: to me was a Jamat, kotonga which is IN d,
25:11
Speaker 3: Four i'm gonna shave your. Head it, lasts it, Works it,
25:17
Speaker 3: works except THAT i went to college and THEN i
25:19
Speaker 3: shaved my head and THEN i did it for the
25:21
Speaker 3: next ten, years so that the effect of that it
25:25
Speaker 3: was gone. Eventually but it worked in the moment BECAUSE
25:27
Speaker 3: i thought PART i didn't realize that's what she was
25:30
Speaker 3: actually saying to. Me but that's neither here nor, there, Right.
25:36
Speaker 1: No BUT i think at the end of the, day
25:37
Speaker 1: What paul's trying to get at with, this and he
25:40
Speaker 1: has a similar passage, here and just so people, know
25:43
Speaker 1: Like colossians three conveys a very similar, thing used a
25:48
Speaker 1: slightly different verb instead of, honor its, obey WHICH i
25:51
Speaker 1: think there's a ton of conceptual overlap. THERE i think
25:55
Speaker 1: we could try to make some, distinction and there probably
25:58
Speaker 1: is some, distinction BUT i would say the semantic overlap
26:00
Speaker 1: is such that you're really not distinguishing much between.
26:03
Speaker 2: Honoring and obeying a.
26:04
Speaker 1: PARENT i don't, think in other, words when you're using,
26:08
Speaker 1: obey let me say it like. This sometimes when we use,
26:11
Speaker 1: honor we have some sort of dispositional sense about, it
26:15
Speaker 1: an emotional kind of background for, this where we, say,
26:19
Speaker 1: oh it's not just, obeying it's also recognizing the authority
26:24
Speaker 1: and appreciating the, person and that's. Honoring obeying is just,
26:29
Speaker 1: WELL i Guess i'll do what they say because they're in.
26:30
Speaker 1: CHARGE i don't actually think that's a good way to
26:33
Speaker 1: distinguish these biblical. TERMS i think, obedience like when we
26:37
Speaker 1: obey The, lord we're not just behaviorally doing it and
26:41
Speaker 1: hoping he doesn't notice that our it's not in the right.
26:43
Speaker 1: Place there's a bigger picture there that conceptually overlaps with
26:48
Speaker 1: what we would normally understand is. Honor and SO i
26:51
Speaker 1: think these are very close terms within The New. Testament
26:55
Speaker 1: but In colossians three twenty one it says fathers do
26:58
Speaker 1: not provoke your children unless they become. Discouraged now that
27:02
Speaker 1: word provoke is a different word than we see In ephesian,
27:05
Speaker 1: six BUT i think overall it's a very similar. Notion
27:10
Speaker 1: and if we look up above that and we see
27:13
Speaker 1: what the husbands and wives, instructions our wives submit to
27:16
Speaker 1: your husband's as is fitting in The, lord husbands love your.
27:18
Speaker 1: Wives we see that In ephesians. Five this is the
27:21
Speaker 1: main thrust for hubsmans and do not be harsh with.
27:25
Speaker 1: Them and so you, know again it's much when we
27:32
Speaker 1: think of these as reciprocal. Relationships, right there's not a
27:36
Speaker 1: call for wives to submit to an abusive husband something like. That,
27:43
Speaker 1: right what's being called here is this reciprocal relationship where
27:47
Speaker 1: submission becomes easy because the husbands are not treating their
27:51
Speaker 1: wives in an inappropriate. Fashion AND i think we see
27:53
Speaker 1: the same thing with fathers and. Children we see the
27:55
Speaker 1: same thing with bond servants and. Masters, right that these
28:00
Speaker 1: relationships are supposed to be, reciprocal and so we know
28:04
Speaker 1: that children are to obey our you, know or to obey.
28:07
Speaker 1: Us that doesn't make it mean that we make it
28:10
Speaker 1: hard for them to do, so, Right it means that
28:15
Speaker 1: we make it easy for them to. Do so we
28:17
Speaker 1: recognize that this is their, role and our role is
28:20
Speaker 1: to facilitate that obedience by being honorable ourselves worthy of.
28:25
Speaker 1: It AND i think that's what is at sort of
28:28
Speaker 1: the heart of these passages is that fathers are to
28:31
Speaker 1: be worthy of, honor and thus the children now honoring
28:36
Speaker 1: the honor they are supposed to give comes.
28:38
Speaker 2: Easy doesn't mean we're.
28:41
Speaker 1: Going to be, perfect but it does mean that we
28:43
Speaker 1: have to exhibit that character such that it's easy to honor.
28:47
Speaker 3: Us. Right, so to your, point If vision six speaks
28:52
Speaker 3: of children honoring your, Parents colautions three very parallel in
28:57
Speaker 3: the way that the passages are set up and what
28:59
Speaker 3: they're doing children obey your, parents there does seem to
29:02
Speaker 3: be the interchangeability as to what this honoring looks. Like
29:06
Speaker 3: BUT i think to your, point the reciprocal nature of these,
29:08
Speaker 3: things it's not there's one kind of reciprocity for. Friends,
29:14
Speaker 3: yes you're on a similar status level social. Level we
29:21
Speaker 3: don't go around saying obey your, friends but we do
29:25
Speaker 3: have a notion of you treat your friends the way
29:29
Speaker 3: that you'd like to be. Treated, right if you have
29:33
Speaker 3: a child who has troubles, sharing but it is more
29:40
Speaker 3: than eager to expect to be shared With you address that,
29:45
Speaker 3: right because there's some sort of reciprocity. There but the
29:49
Speaker 3: key dynamic there is that there's there's kind of a
29:53
Speaker 3: mutual recognition for that plane of social parallel right where
29:59
Speaker 3: they're on the same, place pane of. Respectability that doesn't
30:04
Speaker 3: change when we're talking about the different status in some
30:07
Speaker 3: sense of a parent with a, child a father with a.
30:09
Speaker 3: Child what changes is what that might look. Like but
30:16
Speaker 3: maybe a way of saying what you're saying is if
30:19
Speaker 3: children are to honor their, parents the, parents and in
30:23
Speaker 3: our case we're talking about the, father especially in this,
30:26
Speaker 3: podcast the father is to be, honorable right to conduct
30:32
Speaker 3: himself in a way in which he's worthy of honor.
30:35
Speaker 3: Or As i'll steal from one of my friends who
30:38
Speaker 3: in our in Our indian, culture it's a very important
30:41
Speaker 3: tenant to teach your kids to respect your. Elders it's
30:45
Speaker 3: not as so well taught that a parent should be.
30:48
Speaker 3: Respectable so he does a good job of reminding us
30:54
Speaker 3: fathers be. Respectable, yeah, right, That AND i think that's
30:58
Speaker 3: kind of the thrust of what is getting at here
31:01
Speaker 3: of it doesn't mean sometimes as you've pointed, out we're
31:05
Speaker 3: not going to make a child. Mad sometimes you got
31:07
Speaker 3: to make you. Know i've had moments with my children
31:09
Speaker 3: Where i've, SAID i get that you're mad at, me
31:11
Speaker 3: And i'm not sorry about. THAT i accept that you're
31:14
Speaker 3: mad at. Me but what you need to come to
31:17
Speaker 3: grips with here is THAT i need it's my it's
31:20
Speaker 3: my parental, duty my fatherly duty to make sure you
31:24
Speaker 3: know that you KNOW x is not. Okay, yeah or
31:28
Speaker 3: it's my job for you to understand that you can't
31:32
Speaker 3: grow up thinking this is the way in which we're
31:34
Speaker 3: going to treat. Others so WHEN i think about the
31:36
Speaker 3: child that maybe this is close to, home maybe it's
31:39
Speaker 3: not who is who expects others to share but won't
31:43
Speaker 3: so readily. SHARE i want my child to see the
31:52
Speaker 3: dis equilibrium within that. RIGHT i want her to grow
31:55
Speaker 3: up to be able to understand that these patterns don't solve.
32:00
Speaker 3: Themselves and that's part of this dynamic of the role
32:04
Speaker 3: of the parent is to, say you, know as you grow,
32:08
Speaker 3: older you're going to live in a lot of, disequilibrium,
32:14
Speaker 3: disequality lack of equity. Situations even if you can't affect
32:19
Speaker 3: that on a broader. Level what we're being asked to
32:23
Speaker 3: do here is to is to live in that kind
32:25
Speaker 3: of a. Way so it's a training. Ground and you
32:28
Speaker 3: might be upset with me for addressing. This you might
32:32
Speaker 3: be upset with the lengths That i've gone to to
32:36
Speaker 3: to show you that this isn't. It and maybe sometimes
32:38
Speaker 3: it's just simply because you don't share so well and
32:41
Speaker 3: because you expect others to. Share and this, Moment i'm
32:44
Speaker 3: stepping in And i'm not letting that person share with.
32:46
Speaker 2: You, yeah or you.
32:48
Speaker 3: Might want that, thing And i'm going to say you're
32:51
Speaker 3: not getting, it AND i want you to know why
32:54
Speaker 3: because you need to understand that reciprocity is, important, right
32:59
Speaker 3: or whatever the situation might. Be that's very. Different Then
33:02
Speaker 3: i'm coming to you And i'm just going to have
33:06
Speaker 3: some completely nonsensical sort of discipline to get to you
33:10
Speaker 3: that doesn't connect in your, Mind like that's the lack of, respectability, Right.
33:14
Speaker 1: Like i'm Gonna i'm going to take away what you
33:16
Speaker 1: wouldn't share and you're never going to get it.
33:18
Speaker 2: Again, Right it's not exactly.
33:20
Speaker 3: That that's a very different thing then in this, Moment,
33:23
Speaker 3: yeah we're not going to do, This, yeah AND.
33:26
Speaker 1: I, think you, know if we look at the Way
33:28
Speaker 1: god works with people in, scripture we see this in
33:30
Speaker 1: a number of different.
33:31
Speaker 2: Ways you.
33:32
Speaker 1: Know, obviously when we think about the discipline and the
33:34
Speaker 1: structure instruction.
33:35
Speaker 2: Of The, lord one of the one of the.
33:37
Speaker 1: Paradigms THAT i would go to is like The israelites
33:40
Speaker 1: in the, desert, Right and we usually think of that
33:43
Speaker 1: as a highly negative. Experience paul uses it as a
33:46
Speaker 1: highly negative.
33:47
Speaker 2: Experience.
33:47
Speaker 1: Right these things were written so, that you, know for,
33:50
Speaker 1: us so that we wouldn't make these same, mistakes and
33:53
Speaker 1: it didn't turn out so well for The israelites in the.
33:55
Speaker 1: Desert it's, like, okay fair, Enough that's that's one way
33:58
Speaker 1: of thinking about. It BUT i would put on the
34:02
Speaker 1: opposite end of, THAT i would Put. Abraham if you
34:07
Speaker 1: look at the life Of, Abraham abraham consistently MAKE i,
34:10
Speaker 1: mean he goes down To egypt twice and lies About
34:12
Speaker 1: sarah being his sister instead of his. Wife neither of
34:15
Speaker 1: those times are we ever Showing god Disciplining. Abram he's
34:20
Speaker 1: brought back up with great, wealth like he's you, know
34:24
Speaker 1: he sort of plunders The egyptians on the way back,
34:26
Speaker 1: up you, know he has this affair With hagar and Has. Ishmael,
34:32
Speaker 1: Well god doesn't Punish ishmael or you, know make that generation.
34:36
Speaker 2: Anathema he Blesses.
34:38
Speaker 1: Ishmael and all the, WHILE i think what he's trying
34:41
Speaker 1: to Teach abram, is, no, look this is how you
34:44
Speaker 1: live with. Me this is what it looks like to
34:45
Speaker 1: have this relationship with, me and this is the way
34:47
Speaker 1: your response needs to change as you're living before. Me
34:51
Speaker 1: and that comes to a sort of a climax with
34:54
Speaker 1: the near sacrifice Of, isaac Where abram is going to
34:58
Speaker 1: Give isaac back To god in this act of, sacrifice
35:02
Speaker 1: and it demonstrates That abraham is now one who fears The.
35:05
Speaker 1: Lord this is what the angel who comes down, says you,
35:08
Speaker 1: know After abraham's. Test BUT i think throughout that Whole abraham,
35:13
Speaker 1: cycle you don't See god quote unquote Disciplining. Abraham you
35:18
Speaker 1: see the patience of The. Lord he's not addressing every
35:21
Speaker 1: little thing That abraham does. Wrong he's Allowing abraham to
35:25
Speaker 1: understand what it looks like to live before him through
35:28
Speaker 1: this progressive. Revelation and he's not just every Time abraham screws,
35:34
Speaker 1: up like on top of him like that was the
35:36
Speaker 1: wrong way to do, This and SO i think part
35:38
Speaker 1: of WHAT i see in that is there's room for.
35:41
Speaker 1: Both there's room for the in the, moment we've got
35:45
Speaker 1: to address this and it's time now to address, it
35:48
Speaker 1: and there's also room for in this moment we're seeing a,
35:52
Speaker 1: mistake but we need to let this play out a
35:54
Speaker 1: little longer and let this person come to this.
35:59
Speaker 2: Themselves AND i think.
36:01
Speaker 1: There's both a given a, take and again they're in
36:04
Speaker 1: lies the wisdom that we have to. Develop right when
36:07
Speaker 1: do you do the one rather than the?
36:09
Speaker 3: Other?
36:10
Speaker 2: Right when do you restrain.
36:12
Speaker 1: From offering this instruction and this discipline and allow this
36:15
Speaker 1: to play out a little? Further when do you step
36:17
Speaker 1: in and say, no, no, no, no we're not doing
36:19
Speaker 1: that right?
36:20
Speaker 2: Now and that appears.
36:22
Speaker 1: In my, Estimation it's appeared differently in different, ages especially
36:26
Speaker 1: if my kids are getting a little. Older my son's,
36:28
Speaker 1: twenty my daughters are. SEVENTEEN i find myself doing a
36:32
Speaker 1: whole lot more Of i'm going to have to let
36:35
Speaker 1: this one play. Out Like i'm going to let this
36:38
Speaker 1: one play. OUT i do a lot. Less, hey we
36:41
Speaker 1: need to address this like right, now, Right it's like
36:45
Speaker 1: there's going to be consequences for this that are going
36:47
Speaker 1: to be painful for. Them at some, point it's going
36:50
Speaker 1: to be painful enough for them that they're going to
36:52
Speaker 1: start to get, it and my role almost is to
36:56
Speaker 1: let those consequences.
36:57
Speaker 2: Come.
36:57
Speaker 1: Now it's sort of, like you, know WE i think
37:00
Speaker 1: we've mentioned this, before, like you, know you put your
37:03
Speaker 1: hand on a hot. Stove you're not going to let
37:05
Speaker 1: your kid just sit there with his hand on the
37:06
Speaker 1: hot stove and let it you, know fifth degree burn or.
37:09
Speaker 2: Whatever you probably wouldn't even want.
37:12
Speaker 1: Them to touch the hot, stove, Right and so there's
37:15
Speaker 1: there's a sense in Which i'm not Gonna i'm sort
37:17
Speaker 1: of standing back saying how far CAN i let this?
37:20
Speaker 2: Go is there any danger?
37:21
Speaker 1: Here is there really a consequence for me at taking
37:24
Speaker 1: this approach that's going to be very detrimental for my
37:27
Speaker 1: Kids versus that moment Where i'm, like, no this will
37:31
Speaker 1: be a really good life lesson And i'll be there
37:33
Speaker 1: to help them process it as they go through. It
37:39
Speaker 1: it's not comfortable at, all but you kind of have
37:43
Speaker 1: to assess based on this, first like at what point
37:46
Speaker 1: do they not need another lecture from, dad like a
37:49
Speaker 1: pre lesson about what could happen in this, scenario, right?
37:54
Speaker 1: Right and at what point is that going to be
37:57
Speaker 1: provoking to the point where it's like that just wants
38:00
Speaker 1: to control where we go and what we do and
38:02
Speaker 1: how this. Works and you, Know i'm just finding it
38:08
Speaker 1: a little more frequent with my older kids THAT i
38:11
Speaker 1: have to do it the other.
38:12
Speaker 3: Way, so, yeah that makes. Sense and What i'm hearing
38:16
Speaker 3: in this as a parallel with the way the way
38:19
Speaker 3: That god was Treating. Abraham of, Course god is the
38:23
Speaker 3: one that we see above all as. Wise, yeah there's
38:28
Speaker 3: there's such there's such a close and intimate understanding of
38:33
Speaker 3: your children and even more so That god has of
38:37
Speaker 3: his children. Us, yeah to be able to recognize how
38:44
Speaker 3: do you work in this particular? Environment, Right, yeah you
38:50
Speaker 3: mentioned the stove top. ONE i immediately think of my
38:53
Speaker 3: daughter who's now, ten who when she was probably around,
38:57
Speaker 3: two just had this. Fascination and to a, degree it's
39:01
Speaker 3: when you're, two you're looking at an angle where you
39:03
Speaker 3: see the flame on that stove in a way that
39:05
Speaker 3: when you're my age and my, height you're not you
39:08
Speaker 3: just don't see. It and that drew her in and
39:11
Speaker 3: she wanted to touch, it AND i get in her,
39:15
Speaker 3: way try to convince her not to, yea and one,
39:19
Speaker 3: day When i'm turned, around she did it, anyway and
39:22
Speaker 3: she learned really. Fast there was no holding her, hand,
39:25
Speaker 3: there there was, touch gone, cry she. Done she's never
39:30
Speaker 3: had problems like that again right. Now of COURSE i
39:36
Speaker 3: didn't want her to touch the, stove but she learned that,
39:40
Speaker 3: way and it was instructive to me as a parent
39:42
Speaker 3: to watch her and, Say, okay sometimes this child of
39:46
Speaker 3: mine needs to learn that. Way i've never had that
39:50
Speaker 3: problem with my oldest son because my oldest son has
39:55
Speaker 3: a greater propensity to. Fear and IF i would have
40:00
Speaker 3: said something to him at that age WHEN i, did
40:01
Speaker 3: i'd say something to, me that is Big. Awi and of
40:04
Speaker 3: COURSE i don't talk to him like that, now but
40:08
Speaker 3: that's all he needed to. Hear it's like he made
40:10
Speaker 3: this calculation in his head of BIG. aUI i don't
40:14
Speaker 3: like BIG. aUI i've experienced Big. Awi we'll stay away
40:17
Speaker 3: from anything attached to Big. Ali, Right and my second
40:20
Speaker 3: child had to learn the hard. Way my third child
40:24
Speaker 3: in some ways was like my second child on. Steroids.
40:29
Speaker 3: Right my third child broke her, arm despite warnings over
40:36
Speaker 3: and over again not do, something and that lasted about
40:39
Speaker 3: six months and then she started doing, again Like, okay
40:42
Speaker 3: that was a short lived lesson the grand scheme of,
40:44
Speaker 3: things you, know but that's part of the, process right
40:49
Speaker 3: of understanding who your kid is and recognizing so that
40:54
Speaker 3: there's the wisdom of. Understanding there's also the wisdom of the,
40:56
Speaker 3: goal Which i'm also hearing from you that we've meant
41:00
Speaker 3: that the goal ultimately is there's a commission to raise
41:03
Speaker 3: them to be certain kinds of. People we've all met
41:06
Speaker 3: those peers of ours who are, petulant they can't take
41:11
Speaker 3: no for an. Answer they seem to have impulse. Control
41:16
Speaker 3: and you don't want to project too far into the
41:18
Speaker 3: past and assume what parenting that child might have, been
41:20
Speaker 3: but you get a certain idea of they never actually
41:23
Speaker 3: had to learn that lesson of impulse. Control that's, right
41:26
Speaker 3: and now it manifests in things LIKE i want to,
41:30
Speaker 3: HAVE i got to, HAVE i will, have you, Know,
41:33
Speaker 3: yeah and that's what you want to you, know and
41:36
Speaker 3: to increasing. Degrees i'd imagine right with your with your
41:40
Speaker 3: girls at, seventeen with your, son especially at, twenty that's
41:43
Speaker 3: maybeing an easier lesson to point to the future than
41:48
Speaker 3: it is for my twelve year old who doesn't quite
41:51
Speaker 3: have the idea of what a credit card might be
41:54
Speaker 3: and how it could be so easy to overspend on
41:56
Speaker 3: a credit card with impulse control, problems, right or balancing a,
42:00
Speaker 3: Budget and so that's part of it as, well, right
42:03
Speaker 3: recognizing frame of, life entering into new forms of maturity
42:07
Speaker 3: brain development that aren't, rules but it's general understandings that
42:12
Speaker 3: the tactic, changes and that's part of being. RESPECTABLE i, think.
42:16
Speaker 1: Yeah they're they're they're approaching new challenges and so you
42:20
Speaker 1: sort of have, to at Least i've found you sort
42:23
Speaker 1: of adapt to the challenges.
42:24
Speaker 2: That are before.
42:25
Speaker 1: You and you, KNOW i would say the last Thing
42:28
Speaker 1: i'd just throw out there is maybe this is a
42:32
Speaker 1: topic for the next episode because we could get into.
42:34
Speaker 1: It but we found that it wasn't only us that
42:40
Speaker 1: we had to worry about exasperating our. Children my son
42:45
Speaker 1: had a real hard life in high, school, right just
42:50
Speaker 1: the administrative grind of high, school all the required, classes the,
42:57
Speaker 1: repetition like it just wasn't built for. Him right, now
43:01
Speaker 1: he's a he's going to college In Saint, Louis Saint Louis.
43:05
Speaker 1: University he's a double major in history and, theology and
43:08
Speaker 1: he's doing. Great you would never tell that from his
43:11
Speaker 1: high school. Grades and like high school was just like
43:14
Speaker 1: this hated thing that he used to, Do like he
43:17
Speaker 1: hated it just drove him, crazy and you could see
43:21
Speaker 1: him becoming more and more.
43:22
Speaker 2: Exasperated right.
43:24
Speaker 1: Now we didn't have a we didn't have an outlift for,
43:27
Speaker 1: him Right, like we couldn't take him out of that,
43:29
Speaker 1: situation so we had to sort of help him through.
43:31
Speaker 1: It with our, daughters we saw the same, thing like
43:34
Speaker 1: they were just becoming frustrated and, exasperated and so we
43:38
Speaker 1: did have an outlet for.
43:39
Speaker 2: Them they're going to junior college to finish up their high.
43:41
Speaker 2: School they like that a lot.
43:42
Speaker 1: Better it's a little more, freedom they can be a
43:44
Speaker 1: little more. Autonomous they're still getting all their coursework. In
43:47
Speaker 1: BUT i think there's something, too sort of the structures
43:49
Speaker 1: that we live in that are AND i THINK i
43:54
Speaker 1: do mean it like this co parenting our kids right
43:58
Speaker 1: it would drive me. Crazy And i'd hear teachers talk, about,
44:01
Speaker 1: well we want teacher kids, responsibility and it's, like my
44:04
Speaker 1: kids are already. Responsible so maybe you, know AND i
44:10
Speaker 1: don't think that was me being a Helicopter. Dad it
44:12
Speaker 1: was just one of those things where it's, LIKE i
44:14
Speaker 1: don't think that you know them seeing you turn their
44:18
Speaker 1: papers around in a three month, period whereas you're demanding
44:22
Speaker 1: that they get it, in you, know printed it in
44:25
Speaker 1: on time so that you can take three months to grade,
44:28
Speaker 1: Them i'm not exactly sure they're learning responsibility from, that.
44:33
Speaker 2: Right SO i think a lot of it was.
44:39
Speaker 1: That's not to disparage high, schools not to disparage. Teachers
44:43
Speaker 1: it's just to sit back and Go sometimes kids don't
44:45
Speaker 1: fit in the places you have, them and there has
44:49
Speaker 1: to be some cognizance of that as, well because there's
44:53
Speaker 1: only so much we can do as. Parents it's really
44:56
Speaker 1: rough to get my son out of high. School he
44:58
Speaker 1: had a lot of. Trouble my, daughters we were really
45:01
Speaker 1: happy to have the release valve BECAUSE i think they'd
45:03
Speaker 1: be struggling the same way.
45:04
Speaker 2: Too just didn't work for.
45:08
Speaker 1: Them, SO i, MEAN i think that's a whole other
45:12
Speaker 1: aspect of this is that we're.
45:15
Speaker 2: We're not their primary.
45:16
Speaker 1: Influencers there's a lot of ways that kids can be,
45:19
Speaker 1: frustrated and so we have to be cognizant that they
45:22
Speaker 1: are entering into social worlds and developing their own lives
45:26
Speaker 1: in ways that in part we need to help them cope,
45:29
Speaker 1: with but also in part that we may need to
45:32
Speaker 1: help them step out.
45:34
Speaker 2: Of just throw that out.
45:36
Speaker 1: Of sort of another thought on parenting, HERE i guess, yeah.
45:42
Speaker 3: And in some WAYS i think you're ahead of that
45:44
Speaker 3: curve on. ME i haven't quite had to deal with those. Dynamics,
45:47
Speaker 3: yeah my kid's been, Younger but that makes a lot of.
45:50
Speaker 3: Sense and that speaks again to the sort of. Grittiness
45:56
Speaker 3: right in gardener's, terms it's that the sticking your hands
45:59
Speaker 3: and the. Dirt if you're not willing to get your
46:02
Speaker 3: hands in the, dirt perhaps because you're too afraid of
46:05
Speaker 3: having to wash your hands, afterwards you're not going to
46:08
Speaker 3: be a good. Gardener. Right if you're not able to
46:10
Speaker 3: get into the situations and understand the distinctiveness of your,
46:13
Speaker 3: KIDS i think you're going to get into the places
46:17
Speaker 3: That paul's saying to beware, of, right the exasperating of your,
46:21
Speaker 3: children the provoking them in ways that maybe maybe isn't even, Intentional,
46:26
Speaker 3: RIGHT i think THAT i think we maybe think of
46:29
Speaker 3: it too often as, Intentional and what we need to
46:31
Speaker 3: do is think of it more broadly through the lenses
46:34
Speaker 3: that he's giving, us which is everything is framed around, wisdom,
46:38
Speaker 3: right and and is referring back To, jesus the wise. One.
46:45
Speaker 3: Right and if that's the, case it's it's it's a
46:47
Speaker 3: necessity of understanding that there's not a one stop. Shop
46:51
Speaker 3: AND i think that's really telling to the fact That
46:54
Speaker 3: paul gives very little specifics in these. Passages, yeah and
46:59
Speaker 3: when we tend to think of fatherhood as bequeathed to,
47:03
Speaker 3: us as this masculine, structure it's it's far too. Specific,
47:07
Speaker 3: yeah and we end up with exasperated. Children we end
47:10
Speaker 3: up with children who become, reactive, RIGHT i don't want
47:14
Speaker 3: to be. That and of course every child is going
47:16
Speaker 3: to eventually SAY i disagree with my parents on this
47:19
Speaker 3: or that and want to do something. Different we're doing
47:21
Speaker 3: the same, thing but there is a difference between making
47:28
Speaker 3: changes and not agreeing and a whole skill rejecting because
47:33
Speaker 3: what we've seen is a lack of. Wisdom so, it's you,
47:36
Speaker 3: know maybe the end of the, day the sum is
47:37
Speaker 3: that it's a call to wisdom as parents to recognize
47:41
Speaker 3: who your kids, are recognize where they, are and know
47:45
Speaker 3: that what might be good may not be good for the.
47:48
Speaker 3: Other what might be good for your neighbor's kids may
47:52
Speaker 3: not be good for your, kids and vice.
47:54
Speaker 1: VERSA i, think why don't we dig into that next.
47:58
Speaker 1: Time we're about out of time on, this so why
48:00
Speaker 1: don't we dig back into that next time and talk
48:02
Speaker 1: a little bit more, about you, know those aspects of.
48:05
Speaker 1: FATHERHOOD i think there's other things we can talk through
48:08
Speaker 1: that would sort of dispel the myth that there's some
48:13
Speaker 1: sort of recipe for raising, kids and we can dive
48:17
Speaker 1: a little bit more into that next. Time so thanks
48:20
Speaker 1: for this. Conversation, man this is helpful and. Fun it's
48:23
Speaker 1: always fun talking about the. Kids as much AS i
48:26
Speaker 1: bemoon having, them they KNOW i love, them so it's
48:30
Speaker 1: fun to talk about them and enjoyed. This so thanks
48:34
Speaker 1: for being, Here thanks everybody for, listening and we'll catch
48:36
Speaker 1: you on the next episode Of Thinking Christian Take. CARE
48:39
Speaker 1: i just want to take a second to thank the
48:40
Speaker 1: team At Life audio for their partnership with us on
48:43
Speaker 1: The Thinking christian. Podcast if you go to lifeaudio dot,
48:46
Speaker 1: com you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their.
48:49
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