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Scooby Doo vs Rentaghost · The Mitchell Brothers Revisit

• Ollie: There is another cultural context, and I know you keep missing the cultural context of the other man in these episodes. We don't actually call Halloween Halloween over here. Luke: What do you call it? Ollie: it Hop-To-Nae. The Luke: Why? Ollie: central figure of Hop-To-Nae is Ginny the Witch. Luke: Ginny. Ollie: Ginny the Witch, Luke: So so you literally don't say Halloween over there? Ollie: No you say hop to nay. Hop to nay. So I could take you up to cra- Luke: I've this is why is this never leaked out of the Isle of Man like why is this not known outside? No one knows this. Ollie: People keep themselves themselves. I'll tell you one other thing as well. We Luke: Keep themselves to themselves. Ollie: I'll just note that you've just done what lots of my colleagues do, which is while someone's speaking, they look at their Luke: What's Ollie: computer for what's coming up next. It happens all the time. Is it me or is it a feature Luke: I'll tell you what I'll tell you what Ollie: of modern day meetings? I don't know. it's okay I've got football manager on another screen so don't worry. Luke: This is the Mitchell Brothers revisit where two siblings revisit the TV shows that shaped their childhood and ask what it all meant then and what it means now. My name's Luke Mitchell and I'm here with my brother Oliver Mitchell, and this is a Halloween special. Yesterday we're pairing a nineteen seventy seven Scooby Doo show with the spooks and ghouls of a nineteen eighty one episode of BBC's Renter Ghost. Ollie: And I think that both of these episodes, were you to pitch them to their intended target market nowadays, would be very, very challenging for that target market for sure. Luke: For what reason? Ollie: I think they're too sophisticated in lots of ways for 7 to 12 year olds which I think is probably the pitch for both of these shows. Luke: I fundamentally disagree. Ollie: first battle which will be good. Luke: As you know, each week we pick a specific episode of each show and we independently watch it and then we meet back here to share our thoughts. I've done the background digging to bring some interesting trivia to the chat, and Oliver's picked out his key talking points for discussion. And at the end of the pod, I'm going to ask Oliver to come to the Commissioner's Office of Mitch Flix Productions and tell us which one is he recommending for a modern day reboot. Ollie: Any initial ideas? Luke: yeah, I'm pretty certain y you're gonna go with Renter Ghost. I think you came into this with a bias actually. I think you were always very fond of Renter Ghost. So I'm willing to put Ollie: Well, let's start with Scooby Doo. Luke: Yeah, Scooby Doo. So I'll tell you what you're gonna like about Scooby Doo. I'll try and convince you actually to be more interested. I'm already feeling you're not interested enough in Scooby Doo. Ollie: I'm open, come on. Luke: I don't want to get all philosophical, but why do we even have Scooby-Doo? Why does Scooby-Doo exist? You're gonna feel resolved when you find out the answer. Neither of us are professional animators, but I think we're both probably curious about the production quality of Scooby-Doo. So you're gonna like finding out what was the actual reputation of Hannah Babera? In the industry. You'll be intrigued to discover which characters have become icons among certain underrepresented groups, and I'll give you a heads up it's not Shaggy and the legalised cannabis movement. We watched episode two, season two of the Scooby-Doo Show aired in September nineteen seventy-seven, called Vampire Bats and Scaredy Cats. The Scooby-Doo show was the first iteration of many. In the episode we watched, the gang go to visit Daphne's friend, Lisa, for her birthday, which is a a very old hotel that Lisa would inherit on the day after her eighteenth birthday. Velma says that it's believed that there are vampires on the island, but she herself thinks that this is nonsense, and that's classic Velma or was a sceptical one. But then, when a real vampire shows up and Lisa is turned into a vampire, the vampire legend becomes very believable. And important to note, this is classic era Scooby-Doo, but it's not the original show, which was, of course Ollie: Scooby Scooby Doo, where are you? I've got some things to say. Luke: Is that correct? I've got some things to say. Ollie: I don't know, I made that last bit up. Luke: Got something to show who you I think it I don't know, I don't know, something like that. But yeah, this is the Scooby Doo show. the first show was called Scooby Doo, Where Are You? Ollie: I'd ask myself where is the classic theme tune because this one was like hang around for Scooby Doo. was like this is not right, Luke: I know. Ollie: this is not what I remember. Luke: it was an initial bit of a flatner when I opened that episode and I was like, What's this? This 'cause I Ollie: Yeah. Luke: just assumed that's that theme tune it which is so iconic had gone on for years Okay. I just gotta give a shout out to that description of the episode came from ScoobyPedia, which is an incredible database, nineteen and a half thousand pages of content, tracking every episode of Scooby-Doo, even counting the numbers of zoinks, jeepers and jinkies in every episode. Ollie: you Luke: And no Ollie: That's... Luke: noting all the mistakes and the continuity errors, because I don't know if you notice any in ours, but in the one that we watched, Scooby Doo has a grey foot at one stage. Ollie: I did notice a continuity error but it wasn't that one. I'm sure we'll come on to the other one later. That's amazing, a grey foot. Right, let's talk about the origins of Scooby Doo then. Where did it come from? Luke: Yeah, why does Scooby Doo exist? Okay. story starts nineteen sixty-eight with Fred Silverman, who runs the daytime TV at CBS. And CBS has been getting absolutely hammered in the ratings for years by ABC its rival. And ABC had a cartoon on their Saturday mornings which was about the Beatles. Ollie: if the drawing on that similar to the Beatles Magical Mystery Tour drawing? Luke: No, no. More conventional Fred Silverman has also had to pull a number of cartoons from his schedule due to pressure from parental groups about violence and immoral messages on TV. So he's under a quite a bit of pressure. so he has to come up with an idea of like how can I compete? And he has his own idea and It's hard to know where he got the idea from, but it's to create a cartoon about a teenage rock and roll band. Ollie: Right. Luke: but he does want to put his own spin on it. It's a rock and roll band who solve mysteries. So he goes to Hannah Barbera, who already produces a number of cartoons for him, and they're a big player in the cartoon space. the likes of Huckleberry Hounds, The Flintstones, Yogi Bear, The Smurfs, Topcat, and the Jetsons. They're all Hannah Barbera productions. So he goes to William Hanna and Joe Barbera, they have been the original creators of Tom and Jerry. These guys made Tom and Jerry when they were at MGM and then they'd left to start their own studio. But at this stage in the story, they're in the late 50s, so much of the hands on work in the studio is being done by their employees. Interesting aside, William Hanna grew up in Compton, South Central Los Angeles in the 1920s. He went to the same school as NWA. I was imagining Ollie: Wow. Luke: yeah, I was imagining him revisiting the school in the nineties. So your name your Ollie: Yeah. Luke: names are Easy E and Ice Cube Them are some Ollie: You Luke: fun names you've got. Why don't I make a cartoon about you boys? Ollie: You Luke: The adventures of the Crips and the Bloods you take a good look at this ooze, Yogi Bear motherfucker? So Hannah Babera give Fred Silverman's idea to the team to develop up. For me, looking at this story, the creative process is slightly undermined by their attempts to keep Fred at CBS happy. Right, so because they know that Fred likes dogs, first thing they do is prop Ollie: You Luke: the first thing they do is propose adding a great Dane alongside the band. They call the lead band member Ronnie, but then When this goes back to CBS, a suggestion comes back from Fred. Why did we change the name Ronnie to hmm, I don't know, how about Fred? and then Fred also asks for the dog's name to be changed because actually Scooby-Doo's original name was Too Much. His name was Too Much. It's kind of a weird name for a dog, right? but Fred's been listening to Frank Sinatra, Strangers in the Night. Strangers in the Scooby-Doob-Doo. Doobie-doobo-doo. Yeah. Ollie: Yeah, scatting. Yeah. Luke: And he's he likes that and he goes, Why don't we call it Scooby-Doo? so yeah, obviously the guys at Hannah Babera. Have no issue with that. so there's be various back and forth. And then Fred takes the final proposal to the CBS board, and they're like, you gotta be kidding. A horror story on kids' morning TV, given all the trouble that we're Ollie: You Luke: we're getting from these conservative TV pressure groups. So he then goes back to Hannah Beber and he's like, We're gonna need to do something about this. And they say, What we should do, because this is a ri this is a good idea, we just need to tweak it. Let's make Scooby Doo the main character because it's just a hapless cute animal. So no one's gonna have an issue. Let's make that the main character and also let's try and make it more on the funny side than the horror side. So the writers who create Scooby-Doo are Joe Ruby and Ken Spears, but the actual animator is Iwau. Takamoto, a former Japanese prisoner of war who had been captured and kept in Manzanar concentration camp in California during World War II. And in his time in the camp, he would fill it by just drawing pictures in his sketchbook And he got his first job at Walt Disney purely based on one sketchbook of pictures from the prisoner of war camp. And I think that's why Scoobs has got that those haunted eyes, you know. He's seen things. Ollie: Funny you actually talking about that creativity that comes from being prisoner of war. Luke: Yeah. Ollie: I don't know if you know back another segue to the Isle of Man, but which healthful pursuit was invented on the Isle of Man when we had internment camps here during World War? Luke: Okay. Ollie: World War II. Luke: So it's something that we are all doing now and it was invented on Ollie: Lots of people are doing it and the name of the wellness activity is the surname of the guy who invented Luke: Ooh. Ollie: it and it was a way of them keeping their minds and bodies healthy. Luke: Was it Mr Mr Palaton? Ollie: It wasn't a disability. Luke: Gosh, this is this is a great pub quiz question. It's gonna be some sort like ca not calus, not it's gonna cal it's gonna be some sort of Ollie: You're so close. If I give you the fact that you already have the starting letter, you're going to get it. and he said Peloton. Luke: When I said Peloton. what pi P Pilates. Ollie: Yeah, you've already got... Yeah, Joseph Pilates. Luke: Okay, so let's get into the episode. I imagine this is the first time for many years you've watched Scooby D. What did you make of it? Ollie: Well, after the shock that the theme tune wasn't the theme tune that I remembered, I thought that the entire episode was pretty lazy actually in lots of Luke: In what respect? Ollie: ways. I've got a whole list if you want to go through them one by one. Luke: Go on. Ollie: Okay, so let's start off then. It's essentially a whodunit. Agreed? Luke: Yeah. Ollie: So the whole episode is a whodunit and the reveal comes in the last two minutes of the episode. I guess that's a common narrative structure for Scooby-Doo So, don't know if you know, but you look at the blogs of both amateur and professional crime writers across the world, a whodunit should have between three to five or four to seven possibilities as to who that might be. Luke: Mm-hmm. Ollie: And to be a possibility you need to some investment in character, need to, in this case, have some screen time, have a bit of script, have a motive. And I think that this episode only has one viable person with a motive and screen time, which is of course the uncle who turns out to be the person dressing up as Dracula. So it doesn't work for me as a whodunit, it's really Luke: Mm. Ollie: kind of obvious from the start. I know you think that another possibility could have been the ferryman but he was far too hairy, far too short to fulfill that role of Dracula. There's really no one else who can do it. mean Mr. Drackel, one of the other characters, come on. Mr. Drackel. And then there is the red herring of course of the bat. we know that it can't be the back because the vampire even though he proclaims at every opportunity I want blood! I want blood! He never actually gets near any character to draw that blood he's just hanging over them in a vaguely threatening manner so yeah for all those reasons the whodunit and yeah don't get me started with the paper clue as well like what what was Luke: Yeah. What what's wrong with that? Ollie: that about xmo six desmo like what like is it Luke: Yes, the Latin name for a bat. Whi which I looked up and was cor that's what she said in the pro sorry, no, she might not have said it. She might not have said it, but I look no, I looked it up, it wa Ollie: did she? No I missed that. Yeah I don't think it. Luke: it it was factually correct. Ollie: And how on earth would a seven year old know that in that moment? Luke: Right, so you're going back to the argument that this this generation wouldn't understand it. Meah. No. Ollie: It's just too challenging. Well, I don't think we would have back in 1977 either. Well, I was only one. So all of those, it tries to be a whodunit. It's got the clues. Although the most obvious clue, which is the watch, the giveaway. It ties the watch ringing the bells, ties his tie to the uncle within the first scene that we see him. So yeah, it does a very poor job of being a whodunit. So that's my first lazy, but I've Luke: Mm. Ollie: got some more. Luke: Go on. Ollie: So I thought the animation quality was terrible. And so I did a little bit of looking around this and thanks to Mimic Cartoon Studios for their great descriptions on cartoon history through the 20th century. It a really good resource to use actually. Luke: You got qu you got quite agitated here, didn't you? 'Cause you wouldn't normally do any research but you've looked at this quality and you thought I need to go and dig into this and yeah. Ollie: Yeah, so I don't know if you know, but the style of cartoon would be called the Golden Age Western, right? And so I watched an of, or some of an episode of, a 1977 Batman The quality on that 1977 episode in the same Golden Age western style is so much better. The color is sharper, the lines are sharper, it's far better drawn. And so for Hanna-Barbara, who is, like you say, this mainstay of cartoons. Luke: Mm. Ollie: And then even another Hanna-Barbara production, Popeye, which was, yeah. Luke: They did pop by. Ollie: Yeah, which was done in the kind of the style that came before the great Western, the Golden Age Western was this style called rubber hose where all the limbs are quite bendy and long. It's called Luke: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ollie: a rubber hose style. Very kind of the first cartoon style from the 30s and 40s. Even that was far better drawn than Scooby Doo. Luke: Yeah. Well Ollie: And so I was wondering why that might be the case. You know, maybe production churn, they needed to get out loads and loads of episodes. But what I was frustrated with, and the reason why I thought it was lazy was because even the facial expressions, so like when Velma's in great danger, she's still got this kind of beatific smile on her face as she's talking, even though there's danger all around. They couldn't even be bothered to draw a frown or a grimace on her face. Luke: Hmm. Yeah, no, it's interesting that you picked up on all of that. I mean, you're reflecting some of the anger and disrespect really felt amongst the animation community. but I would argue just to be Tasmanian devil's advocate, they had the ability to make quality. They just wanted to make money more than they wanted to make quality TV. This was cheap and cheerful. So let me say Hanna Barbera was criticized at the time and considered to have poor quality, cheap animation compared to the likes of Disney or Warner Brothers. But it was a deliberate business choice. So to save money and time, they used a technique called limited animation. They would reduce the number of unique drawings per second instead of draw redrawing the whole scene. They kept the background static. They only moved parts of the character like the mouth or an arm that they needed to for to convey the meaning. They recycled backgrounds, they constantly reused running backgrounds they would create certain effects with the thought that we want to get more mileage out of this and use it again. But it actually made them industry pioneers. Ollie: because they were willing to challenge or willing to churn out content like that Luke: Yeah, because before Hanna Barbera, producing cartoons for weekly television was considered financially impossible. so an another Ollie: it. Luke: thing that they did they were cloning what they were their work. So if you look at something like Inch High Private Eye or Captain Caveman, they're essentially just reworked versions of pre-existing templates. Ollie: Are you suggesting then that for example the the shot that happens probably four or five times in the episode that we all know of Scooby jumping into Shaggy's arms repeated as well with Scooby Dum jumping into Scooby Doo's arms would we be seeing that in other franchises? Right okay okay Luke: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Ollie: right. Luke: But at the end of the day you would have to say, despite these limitations and the restrictive budgets that they were working with, they created some of the most iconic beloved characters in cartoon history. Flintstones, Scooby-Doo, the Jetsons. Ollie: Yeah, yeah. Okay, so how do you justify this continuity error then? Because, well actually, we might get the answer through that template idea. Did you notice when the uncle was revealing the family vampire history? Luke: okay, so you've got a script based continuity error. Go on. No, I didn't notice. okay. Ollie: No, it's he brings out two photographs and he says, this is your grandfather and then this is him as a vampire. And the first photograph of him as a vampire, he's stooping over a woman that's lying down, implying that he's going to bite her neck. And then in the next shot, he's still holding the two photographs, but they're completely different. Did you notice that? Luke: Yeah. I didn't notice Yeah, so I mentioned Scooby Doo has a grey foot at one point. The reason he has a grey foot is 'cause they've accidentally put Scooby Dumb's foot on him. Ollie: Hahaha! Luke: can we talk about Scooby Dumb? Ollie: We can, again, part of the lazy trope I thought is very derivative, that southern drawl, weird also that he's dumb but he can speak better than Scooby Doo. So how dumb is he? Luke: Well just taking a step back, I was just like, what's the point of Scooby Dumb? Why is he s is he even there? Why does he doesn't do anything of any what is he adding on top of Scooby? Ollie: is that visual joke at the start where they're trying to get the coffin into the van and they try and put it in sideways and then that leads to them throwing it into the van, it bouncing back out, which actually is a copy of a Popeye scene where the same happens with a telephone box, but that's another story. And then the coffin flips open and the bat comes out, so he does allow the bat reveal, doesn't he, at the start, I suppose. Luke: He was a bit it was a bit Ollie: But that's not to say another character couldn't have done that with Scooby Doo Luke: it made me think about additional characters in Scooby-Doo and of course not in this episode, but later, Scrappy Doo. We'll all remember Ollie: Mmm. Luke: Scrappy Doo. We we should talk a little bit about the existence of Scrappy Doo 'cause it's quite a controversial small dog. Have you Ollie: I always thought it was just Scooby Doo's child, is it not? Luke: What is Scrappy Doo? Scrappy Doo is the fearless nephew of Scooby Doo. probably one of the most controversial cartoon characters to exist. let me say, the reason for Scoopy Dumb, and then he was like a prototype of Scrappy Doo, actually. Scoopy Dumb was brought in because even by this stage Fred's like You gotta keep this in the top at the top of the ratings. What else can you do? so they invent Scooby-Dum. They're starting to bring in these extra characters. Scrappy-doo comes much later. But he was entirely brought in to mix things up a bit. Scrappy-Doo could have been Scooby-Doo. So when they were deciding what Scooby-Doo the Dog would be like, they were like, either it's going to be like the version of Scooby-Doo that we know now, or Let's make it a feisty small dog. So this feisty small Ollie: Right. Luke: dog has been trying to come through into Scoopy Doo since its origins. people hate Scrappy Doo, or a lot of people hate Scrappy Doo. And the reason Y Well, no, I remember I remember, Ollie: What, in their 19,000 pages of... Luke: I remember at school, kids would be like, I fucking hate that Scrappy Doo. Like honestly. Ollie: Did you see what it did last night? Luke: one of the reasons that people hated Scrappy Doo is he entirely changed the dynamic of Scooby Doo. because it was so much about him, they ri sort of moved Fred and Daphne and Velmo into the background. So all of the episodes were centred on Shaggy, Scooby and Scrappy. Ollie: Mm-hmm. Luke: So yeah, there was a real backlash he was so unpopular they took him out In the actual story, he leaves the group in a huff because He feels like th they've exiled him. and then in a later episode they mock the fact of like they sort of like Scrappy D Remember Scrappy D Ollie: Yeah Luke: They actually mock him in a later episode anyway. Ollie: Quite interesting the range of young people represented through the characters, isn't it? They Luke: they've got very Ollie: all seem like they're different types of young people. Luke: Yeah, Fred is the leader of the gang. As I say previously, he was the the frontman of the pop band, called Ronnie. he's the determined detective. You've got Velma, she's highly intelligent and analytical, always very sceptical about the supernatural. You've got Daphne, she's observant, but she's also very danger prone and slightly vain. And then you've got the Ollie: She's almost like a Bond female, isn't she, Daphne? Luke: Yeah, I thought as well, like often damsel in distress needs rescuing. then there's the best friends Shaggy and Scooby-Doo who are cowardly and always hungry. And those characteristics of that group have the one thing that's largely stayed consistent through fifty years of Scooby-Doo. But Ollie: Because there's films and everything, isn't there? There's feature films and... Luke: There's been so much, yeah. So in two thousand and two we discovered that Velma is a lesbian. For a for a Ollie: Yep. Luke: long time gay women had adopted her anyway, but it wasn't until 2002 that a script writer finally brought her out of the closet and had her in a story become quite flustered, visibly flustered in the presence of Daphne. Yeah. And there there was come. Ollie: Ooh, ooh. That's quite challenging, isn't it? Because why would we assume that Daphne would be the person... Like in our episode they share a bedroom, for example, and there's no hint of any of that going on. Luke: No, I know. It's is again another sort of difficult one to square up. Like they've been together for forty years, why's she suddenly getting flustered now? Ollie: That's right. how does the lesbian community adopt a cartoon character? What does that look like? Do they have Luke: Well Ollie: pin badges? Luke: so there's a lesbian g journalist on The Guardian, Julie Bindell, who wrote about it and she wrote In the nineteen seventies, Velma shared my view of the world. She was cleverer than boys and she was defying femininity. After I came out, I knew exactly what else was going on with her. And now the show's makers have caught up. Ollie: So she is arguing that in every single episode we can sense some form of homosexuality in Velma. Luke: She's say she's saying she knew Velma was gay Ollie: I guess you've got the knee-high socks with the sandals, I mean... short the short hair i'm just thinking of lazy again lazy lazy tropes Luke: additionally, in two thousand and twelve the writers at that time acknowledged that Fred is very likely autistic. They say that he has an all consuming here's the here's the evidence, he's has an all consuming hyperfixation on designing traps. He frequently misses social cues. He struggles to understand sarcasm or rhetorical questions. He interprets language very literally. He experiences difficulty I'm just laughing at these are all the things that people have picked out. He experiences difficulty identifying and understanding his own emotions, such as recognising his own feelings for Daphne, until much later in the series. So he's got a thing with Daphne as well. It's always Daphne that's sort of bringing this out of them. His Ollie: I think this is on the producer's part, this is just a clout chase of the neurodiverse community. really is. Luke: Yeah. Agree, although quite early in two thousand twelve they were they jumped on quite early. Ollie: Yeah early adopters yeah okay. Luke: This is not my joke. This is true. The writers at that time acknowledged that Fred was probably on the spectrum. Ollie: Yeah, it's also retrospective though, like in the original conception it's very clear someone like Shaggy is a hippie. He looks completely different to everybody else. In fact, I think probably it's his van, just like lots of hippies had vans, it just happens to be Fred driving the van. But it's Shaggy's van. for sure. Maybe he got a DUI or something and Fred had to take over. But Luke: Yeah. Ollie: it's his van. Whereas all the others, this personality or character has been added to them in the afterthought over the decades, I think. Luke: Yeah. Yeah. It does make you wonder what could be coming f in the future. They could do anything with these characters. What else could you find out about some of these characters? Ollie: Yeah, yeah. Well... Luke: I mean y talking you're talking of the van. imagine if they just decided to pack things up, sell the mystery machine, and all just settle down, and then Daphne is forced to reveal because of this that she's actually a member of the marginalised traveller community. Ollie: You Luke: As y she's been very uncomfortable with the way that in numerous past episodes they've been harassing fortune tellers. Ollie: It doesn't sit well with my Romany roots. she does like to glam up doesn't she? the Gypsy Wedding franchise they love a bit of glam so it tracks. Luke: Yeah. Maybe she I mean, we we don't know. right now s you know, they're identifying with her on the caravan bugs. Ollie: I said earlier that I referenced that Scooby-Doo had turned into films. You said there's been lots and lots. I mean, what happened? Luke: Yeah. Ollie: Is the franchise still going? Luke: Yes, it's still going. So over fifty years old now. in the nineteen eighties, so after the show that we watched, the market for cartoons declined. So things for Hanna Babera started to get a little bit tricky. They got bought by Turner, and Turner used all of Hanna Babera's back catalogue to launch the Cartoon Network. Obviously a very successful Ollie: okay. Luke: channel, and then that became part of Ollie: and they've got all the content they would ever need for it as well. It's just a question. Luke: All that bat yeah, so much content. And that became part that they were then bought by Warner Brothers. So that's where Hanna Barbera is these days. I mentioned Ruby and Spears, who are the writers of Scooby-Doo. They, much as Hannah Barbera has left their studio to start their own. As soon as Scooby-Doo, this Scooby-Doo that we watched came out in 1977, soon after that, Ruby and Spears go on and create their own studio. they they moved on from Hanna-Bavera because they weren't being offered any promotion. There. So this is interesting in terms of we've talked about the sort of the clear reliance on formulas. The first production from Ruby and Spears is called Fang Face. About And yeah, cr critics called it highly derivative. They didn't really have any big hits actually. but they did do the police academy cartoon. Did you know there was a cartoon of police it Ollie: Okay did that come before the film or after the film? Luke: It was after the film, yeah. It was based on the film. I mean, it's kind of a weird one because Police Academy was a fifteen a an R rated movie when it came out. And then they decided to make a children's cartoon. This is classic eighties, isn't it? a trivia side note, there was a New York hip hop trio called The Fat Boys came out in the early eighties. one of them was a very accomplished beatboxer and they had big ambitions for where they were gonna go. And I'm gonna play in a clip of them talking from a documentary where they're talking about their aspirations to be what they want to be in the hip hop scene. Ollie: OK. Luke: They had some minor hits, but it's fair to say that things were starting to wind down a bit by the time they were commissioned to write the theme tune for the police academy cartoon. In terms of Scooby Doo, there's been many productions since this episode that we watched. in terms of films, there was the recent Scooby Doo and Crypto 2. I haven't looked into it, but I I don't think it's about a Bitcoin mine. Or you Ollie: I was wondering about that, how contemporary was it? Luke: Yeah. Highly volatile currency trading going on. I assume it's a different type of crypto. and then in the pipeline currently there's Scooby-Doo Origins, which is a live action TV series coming out on Netflix next year. And then also in Japan, Yakoso Scooby-Doo. Yakoso Scooby-Doo. an anime. Ollie: Is that the correct pronunciation? Luke: Yokoto Skubado. that's an anime set in Japan in twenty that's coming out in twenty twenty seven as well. Ollie: good, Luke: right, traditional end game. I always have to ask you at this stage, dead or alive? I thought I'd ask you about the hip hop band The Fat Boys. The group was composed of Mark Prince Marky D. Morales, Damon Kulrocsky Wimbly, and Darren Bufflove Robinson. Are the Fat Boys still with us? Ollie: I think they are, but not in that ink. Luke: I can see you doing the mental maths thinking if they were an up and coming hip hop act in the early eighties, what age would they have been and what would they be now? Ollie: Yeah, I think they are, but not in that incarnation. think they're probably producers, maybe. Luke: Robinson died of a heart attack aged twenty eight. Ollie: well. Luke: don't don't worry about it, he was a pedo. Yeah, he was convicted. and Prince Marky D also had a heart attack, but he made it to fifty two. And Prince Marky D in the nineties dated Pepper of Salt and Pepper. it's time for a word from our sponsor. And with Halloween upon us, it seemed inevitable that we'd have a tap tap tap on the window of advertising opportunity from Archie the Skeleton. Yep. Y you not familiar with Archie the Skeleton? Ollie: That's all. Luke: Well what's your favourite brand of VHS blank cassette tapes? Ollie: I think it begins with a B. Is there one that begins with a B? Luke: I wonder if you're thinking of B A S F? Ollie: Yes, yes, pass, Luke: Yeah, yeah. Ollie: yes. Luke: Well we may have to bleep that out because Archie the Skeleton is all about Scotch. I used to be yeah, I used to be like you with my JVCs, my MaxLs, sometimes a Memorex if I was desperate. But then I discovered Scotch. And I I wouldn't buy an E one eighty or an E two hundred from any other brand now. And the reason is that Scotch is a lifetime guarantee. Every recording is as good as the first, or they'll give you a new tape. Re-record, not fade away. That's re-record, not fade away. Thank you very much to Scotch for their support of the pod. Ollie: you insinuated before that you thought Rent a Ghost was going to be my pick for Mitch Flicks. Luke: Yeah. Ollie: As you're so good at reading my mind, tell me what we're going to like. Luke: well you'll be you're gonna you're gonna devour everything in this particular conversation about RentaGhost. You're gonna like finding out what happened after series five that changed RentaGhost forever. You're gonna be frankly angry to hear about yet another BBC boo boo involving their archives and you're gonna be blown away to learn that one cast member has family links to a Russian spy scandal. Ollie: Wow, wow, brilliant. Well, let's get into the episode then. for anyone who doesn't know, Rent a Ghost is a British children's fictional farcical comedy series broadcast on the BBC from 1976 to 1984. And it's about an agency that hires out ghosts to help people with unusual tasks. So Luke and I re-watched Rent-A-Ghost Series 6, Episode 4 from May 1981, in which the Meekers, who are the Ghosts Agency's office landlord, and a local entrepreneur, Adam Painting, played by national treasure Christopher Biggins, experience life under a spell that casts them as living toys inside a doll's house, while the long-awaited psychiatric report for the neighbours, Mr and Mrs Perkins, finally arrives with unexpected results. And then there's Dobbin, a horse that inexplicably features in the programme. He becomes super Dobbin with a cape. Luke: Very good, yeah. To be honest, I'm wondering about the value of an explanation of what this episode was about. It's kinda chaotic and absurd anyway, isn't it? Ollie: You might want to rephrase that to brilliantly absurd. Luke: here we go. all right. Ollie: Well come on then, give me some foundation to what I love so much. Tell me about some of the background. Luke: Look at you lapping it up, your your mouth's watering, isn't it? in terms of the origins, Renter Ghost, Let's start with Bob Block. You'll have noticed his name pop up, I'm sure, on the credits. Blocky, the Blocksmith. Lock Block and Two Ollie: Hmm Luke: Smoking Barrels. Those barrels being ink barrels, because this guy knew how to write TV comedy. He started out writing for Frankie Howard. Arthur Aski and Ronnie Barker back in the forties and the fifties. He wrote for Ken Dodd and Crackerjack. We'll skip over Hey Presto its Rolf Harris in nineteen sixty six. we need to introduce a spooky noise now in every episode where we make a connection with a previous show because Bob Block wrote alongside Timbrook Taylor, Graham Garden, and Bill Oddy in a show called Broaden Your Mind, which was a precursor to the goodies. Ollie: Can I just say, this is completely genuine, one of my lines about this was gonna be, this is goodies for children. That's amazing. Luke: wow the website which is run by Bob's family about his life and his work, it very much remains a work in progress. The biography page is still under construction, so there wasn't any info on there. the visitor guest book reveals some snippets of Bob's life from the people that have come on there and left their comments, but also It leaves their email address and their IP visible. Which I I would suggest is something they need to look into in the the current web dev plan, wherever that's up to at the moment. Ollie: very much a GDPR issue. What about Bob himself? Had he written anything like this before? Luke: in terms of his own work, he'd had a couple of run-ups to Rent a Ghost, actually. So his first self-penned series is a 1972 series called and you'll start to spot a theme, Pardon My Genie. Features a young lad who works in a hardware store whose life changes forever when he discovers a genie. after rubbing a watering can. I thought it sounds like a euphemism. What you doing in the back, lad? Nothing. You rubbing that watering can again That program was described as being packed with comical misunderstandings. I think you could apply that to RentaGhost, couldn't you? And that lasted for two series. Then he has another series, Robert's Robots, which the website Television Heaven describes as One of those delightfully eccentric nineteen seventies children's sitcoms that could only have been made in Britain. A show where slapstick comedy, gentle sci-fi, and quaint countryside charm coexist in perfect bonkers harmony. And again, I think you can see some familiar themes there with Renter Ghost. Ollie: This guy's like the Richard Curtis for children's sapstick, isn't he? Luke: Renter Ghost will be considered his greatest work for sure. Ollie: Perhaps it's his greatest work because of the quality of the acting. Like, tremendous cast. I'm sure you'll agree. Luke: Yeah, the cast was good. Good some good quality there. Ollie: begins soonicles. Luke: Yeah, Sue Nickel's best known as Audrey in Coronation Street. Ollie: Michael Staniforth. Luke: Yeah, my he he had a background working in the West End, in West End Theatre. An accomplished actor. Sue Ollie: Yeah. Luke: Nichols, just to say as well. before she came on this, she'd had four years on Crossroads. Ollie: Yeah. Luke: and that I mentioned at the start about the Russian spy thing. Sue Nichols' dad was a conservative MP called Baron Harmer Nichols. And MI5 released or they declassified some files in twenty twenty two, and that's when it came out that he'd had a gay affair with a Russian spy. Hmm. Christopher Biggins, he'd studied at Bristol Old Vic alongside Jeremy Irons, and he'd already been in some pretty heavyweight T V actually, iClaudius, and he was the one that played Adam Painting, the local entrepreneur. Ollie: Let's have that spooky sound then because Bristol Vic came up in last week didn't it with Max Headroom? Bristol Old Vic? Luke: Well remembered. Yeah, that's where Matt Fruer studied. Now the interesting thing about Renter Ghost is that there are essentially two generations of it, and we watch the second generation. So the first generation Renter Ghost, which ran for four years, had two other lead characters alongside Claypole. one of them was the original founder of the Ghost Agency and he was played by a guy called Anthony Jackson. I looked him up and it jumped out to me straight away 'cause I saw that again, talking of the quality of the you know, these actors, he'd been in two thousand and one a Space Odyssey. And then I looked up what role he played. And he was one of the apes. Do you remember the do you remember Ollie: Hehehehe Luke: the apes at the start that throwing the bones around? And then the other character that was in this original Renter Ghost was an elderly Victorian ghost played by Michael Davenport. And what happened was in 1979, so four years after the first four series. Michael Davenport sadly passed away. And then I think Anthony Jackson, because of this, decided it was a good time to call sort of call an end to the show. Claypole was the only one that stayed in the show. But Ollie: So, Michael Standeforth, yeah. Luke: Yeah, Michael Stannifill stayed in the show. That that's my sort of understanding, looking at the timeline anyway. But if you look on Wikipedia, it says that. the Michael Dav Davenport and Anthony Jackson left the show because they didn't want to be typecast. But actually, I'm thinking Michael Davenport has been typecast because he's now literally literally a ghost. Because he's passed away. Ollie: Hehehehehe Luke: So yeah, I think i it's likely that after that Anthony Jackson also was like, Alright, I'm done with this. so yeah, there's a real dividing line amongst fans. there are people that like the first batch of episodes, which are quite different. I watched episode one, first one ever, and it's much slower and easier to comprehend actually. Ollie: Mm-hmm. Luke: But yeah, there's there's quite strong feelings 'cause of quite unhinged stuff on the internet about these two generations. I was looking at a Facebook group called Seventies Time Machine and they posted a picture of the original threesome in the cast, and somebody the top comment was, Yeah, when Rendigos was actually funny. With lots and lots of likes on that one. And then another guy had like personally unleashed on Bob Block. Rent a Ghost was universally disliked by all the kids that I knew. it was rubbish. As was everything produced by Bob Block. Ollie: Wow. Luke: Yeah. It when you go I mean, what Ollie: Wow. Luke: every time you you look into something, there's a massive fan community and no doubt they'll be listening to this of people who know so much more than we do about these shows and are so much more invested in them. Ollie: Good luck with those Twitter comments. Luke: I know last week you mentioned you're excited to do this one that you felt rent a ghost was very much in your wheelhouse. So what did you make of the episode Ollie: was so excited, wasn't I? And then as soon as I pressed play on the episode, I was initially really gutted. Luke: Why? Ollie: Well, I was so confident that it was such a cherished part of my childhood, and I know that an ongoing theme with us still is my recollection of memory or poor recollection of memory. But I was absolutely convinced that at some point in the opening two minutes of the episode, I would witness, there's somebody at the door! There's somebody at the door! And then I watched and it didn't come up so I had to Google there's somebody at the door and realised it's fucking Emu! Volt-Hallon Emu! Yeah! It is! Luke: okay. Yeah yeah yeah it is so I I was actually thinking you were getting confused with Christopher Biggins and Grotbags. I f I I felt like in Grotbags. Yeah. Yeah. There's somebody at the door. Ollie: No! there's another one. No, it was Rod, Rod, Emu. So, yeah, maybe that's an episode for another day. So got over that. Yeah, Luke: So actually this wheelhouse this wasn't your wheelhouse or was it? Ollie: exactly. Yeah, it was completely the wrong word. It's definitely a ship that was sinking. Yeah. Luke: Sorry, how about the wrong wheelhouse? Ollie: However, watching the episode, I mean, it's just delightful, I think, starting with the cast. Shall we start with claypole? Luke: Far away. Ollie: So I see Claypole as like a forerunner to maybe Mr. Tumble. He's got that energy, enthusiasm. He sings the theme tune to the opening credits as well, doesn't he? So he's really energetic. Luke: And probably shared a similar level of appreciation amongst his viewers like Claypole and Tumble, people feel very fond of both of them. Claypole was by far the most popular character. Ollie: Yeah, and you could see Claypole... You could see Claypole courting an audience at Camp Besterville, couldn't you? Just like Mr. Luke: Yeah. Ollie: Tumble does annually. In fact, you could probably see Claypole as a kind of owner of the 1970s most progressive nursery for children, allowing children to be self-expressive and indulging them in any creative endeavour they wanted to get involved in. Luke: clay pole running a nineteen seventies nursery. Ollie: Yeah, it put me in mind, you know when you have children, when you're a parent first of all, and you're reading all the like the parenting books, did you ever do that when you were, yeah. Luke: Yeah. Yeah. Ollie: And then, I don't know how we stumbled across it, but there was a video that we were watching of one such nursery with children would have been about three or four years old, and they were being taught to cut. vegetables with sharp kitchen knives. With the aim of it kind of... No, it was quite recent but the Luke: Was it a nineteen seventies video or no? Just progressive. Ollie: purpose was to give them a sense of autonomy and self-regulation over what they were doing but in actuality you just had this video of these kids fucking wielding these plates at the age of four. Luke: Well, the nineteen seventies was the z DIY crafts revolution, wasn't it? kids from nursery normally come in home with stuff made out of badly painted cereal boxes and egg cartons and stuff. But he would have been sending them back with like elaborate Macrame wall hangings of Humpty Dumpty. He loved doing cartwheels and performative dances. So he'd probably have had all the kids at nursery doing performance interpretive dance. let's really tell the story of apartheid South Africa Ollie: Yeah Luke: And you're a parent, you get an invite to the Christmas show. It's called Does Santa Know About Soweto? Ollie: He'd be getting them to make mosaics of the CND banner He's talking about his acrobatics, his movement makes a lot of the transitions between scenes, doesn't it? He'll disappear Luke: Yeah. Ollie: or pop and then it'll go to another scene. So they probably scripted around his energy, didn't they, I would imagine? Luke: if he hadn't have continued after series four they'd have been knackered, wouldn't they? 'Cause I suspect he became the anchor of the whole show from that point onwards. Ollie: Yeah, definitely the glue and that's why he sings a theme tune I think. Luke: Yeah. Ollie: But it dawned on me that the whole show is like this kind of playground for creativity isn't it? Him begins the script, the language, the humor, even you know talking about Sue Nichols as Nadia, the surreal ping-pong game that she is the ball in the opening Luke: Yeah. Ollie: scene. She's the ball of the ping-pong game and she's floating between each side of the Luke: Yeah. Ollie: clay pole and muck witch playing against each other, isn't it? So weird. Luke: Strangely I t I thought the special effects didn't look as good as they were on the goodies, which had been like what how long earlier? It had been a significant number of years earlier. Ollie: Yeah, this was 81 wasn't it and goodies was 74 wasn't it? Luke: Yeah. Ollie: Yeah, yeah because that ping pong ball never actually hit the bat at any point did it? It just floated, she just floated. Luke: It takes a while to work out what's going on, yeah. Ollie: Yeah, yeah. It's very surreal, like lots of weird things going on like you said at the start, very chaotic. I did think her Dutch accent was brilliant, so brilliant I think... Jamie Lee Curtis probably used her as her muse for her role as the Swedish backpacker in trading places. Luke: Mm-hmm. Ollie: And then Biggins, mean what a guy. In fact a lot of the good humour came I think from lots of Biggins' lines. Luke: Yeah, again thinking of like Scooby Dumb, what's the point of Biggie's he's such a pantomime dame, isn't he, in everything he does. he brings a lot of value, but why as a character is he in the show? The local entrepreneur, Adam Painter. Ollie: Well, the narrative is that he is the one that funds all of the activities that Renter Ghosts do. In fact, with the Renter Ghosts, it's funny you talking about Block before and his work with the guys from the goodies because the premise for the goodies was they are also a rental agency or an external agency Luke: yeah. Ollie: for doing... Luke: Yeah. Ollie: animals isn't it? Where these guys are offering the services of ghosts. So again it's almost the same script isn't it in a way. Luke: Yeah. Very good. Ollie: Let's talk about the script. What did you make of the humour? Luke: I to be honest, I found the whole experience of watching it I was overwhelmed. I couldn't really keep up with what was going on. I appreciate there's these like quality actors involved, but it was very much like going to a village hall pantomime. the Ollie: Hmm. Luke: the the energy of the actors was like I mean there was one scene they're kind of like trying to steal each other's thunder a bit. and it did feel it did it just does very much feels like a theatre production, amateur theatre production. But anyway, humour I I can't say I laughed, I'm I'm sorry to say. No, no. Ollie: You didn't? At all? wow. Wow. So you would Luke: What what made you laugh? Ollie: have picked up on... I've got one scene actually, but just generally you would picked up on most of the humour is coming from the punnery, the word play, that kind of thing. So with the Perkins, neighbours, Claypole has given, put a spell on them which is encompassed in that necklace on the fireplace. Luke: Yes. Ollie: Yeah, so every time she says I wish something happens, doesn't it? So I wish our car goes like a rocket and suddenly their car outside Luke: Yeah. Ollie: turns into a rocket and goes up into space, creates this international space incident, which is pretty cool. In fact, that's the one I'm to mention in a moment. Biggins is at the heart of all that wordplay. The scenes where they have that can't say Marr while the doll's lying down and then they're lying down and it's Luke: Yeah, yeah. Ollie: just a play on who says the phrase lying down and what happens after that. Luke: Yes, yes. Ollie: Well actually you're not picking up on the wordplay probably links to what I'm going to say in Mitchfrix as well but we'll come to that later. So let's have a think about that. that rocket, the car turning into a rocket then. So did you notice that during the Dolls House scene, so during the episode some of the characters are turned into the size of dolls and they're put into a Dolls House? Luke: Yes, yeah. Yeah. Of course I noticed that. Ollie: And then during that scene it cuts to the television where there's a news presenter who's telling the story of the Luke: Yeah. Yeah, I remember this. Ollie: Perkins. Okay, did you not pick up on the line that introduces the segue to that news presenter? Luke: I don't recall it. Ollie: Can I read that line out to you? Luke: Please do. Ollie: The man denied all charges and said he was in Bootle at the time. Luke: Yeah. I do remember that. What is that a joke? Ollie: Don't you think that's funny? The bizarreness of using Bootle. Luke: I No. Ollie: Wow! Wow, that's comedy right Luke: It was in Butel. Ollie: there! The Mandanai Dorj- like why would no child would know where Butyl was it's like it's funny use of sound. Luke: I thought you were gonna say it was some kind of play on the word boot or something, it was word play, but it I know. Ollie: No, Butyl's in Liverpool, it? It's just a laugh about... Let's choose the most obscure place. Yeah. Luke: Yeah, an obs sort of a random Yeah, I get that. Yeah. I think that was a common a feature of eighties humour, wasn't it? Ollie: Yeah, yeah, it's like that's the way a lot of yeah. Yeah, so let's keep on going with that newscaster scene then see if we can pull it egg Luke: Starting to feel slightly I'm starting to feel slightly like I'm annoying you now. Ollie: No, not at all. But let's try to extract some humour from that. we get the news report then that this car is causing this international space incident because it's gone up into space. then so the news report is talking about how Russia, Britain and America, they're all arguing about what the cause is and what will happen to it. And the Russians say that becomes this thing about the cars in parking orbit. and the Russians say if the cars in parking orbit over our space we're going to shoot it down and then the britain say if the cars in parking orbit over our space we're going to tow it away Luke: Yeah, I remember that joke. I it I i i f for me it's like Ollie: Right so that's so funny isn't it? Luke: it's a groaner, that one. It's a groaner. Ollie: Really? Wow. Even Luke: Yeah. I'm glad you liked it. Ollie: Given that this is a children's TV show, do you not think it's a really valiant attempt at one, informing them about the world, Luke: I I I love your emotions on this episode. Ollie: and two, of making them feel a little bit better about what would have been a really scary time for them? Luke: Yeah. I can see that. Ollie: okay, I don't think I've managed to convince you that the humour was indeed as good as what I think it is. And I think I've been tried to be quite compelling in that that regard. Luke: Well, I think many of the people on the Facebook groups would side with me. Ollie: That's probably your problem you've had your mind tainted Luke: No. This was afterwards. I watched the show. I it Ollie: the scourge of social media Luke: No. Alright, well let's move we we're gonna have differences on this. This pod. I'll just say, despite not particularly enjoying Rentergot, I I respect Bob Block for sure. Ollie: Okay, good. You're in his corner. Luke: yeah, and also I mean I would say like what he's created with the show It's kind of like magical realism meets pantomime. he's created something unique. Like if you Ollie: trippy Luke: you could compare him with the likes of like Where's Anderson in terms of like what he's created You know, just in terms of creating something which Ollie: you You Luke: I was it's obvious to me in the same way that we recognise the unique feel of a Wes Anderson film or a Mike Lee production, Bob Block has crafted something distinctive. so in terms of Bob, if you think back, he was working with Arthur Ascri. So by the time Renter Ghost is finishing its ninth series, then Bob Bloch's getting on a bit. And this was so we're talking about the end of his career. It's great for Bob that he had Renter Ghost in his you know, he finally had this big hit. It's a nice legacy for him. But he did actually do a couple more shows at the end of his career, so he one of them was Grandad Do you remember Grandad Clive Dunn from Dad's Army? What was the song? Do you remember the song? Ollie: No, no, no. Luke: Grandad Grandad We love you. Ollie: was going to sing that and then I was thinking that I'd got the wrong end of the stick completely and I'd already felt embarrassed by my previous misdemeanour. Luke: What what do you mean wrong end of the stick? Ollie: I thought that was just a pop song. The one that goes, granddad Luke: No, i if you Ollie: we love you, granddad we... yeah. Luke: Yeah, that's the one I that's what I just did. You can imagine Clive Dunn sat in his granddad chair, his rocking chair, and all the kids around him singing up to him. in terms of Rent of Ghost, they made an Australian version in nineteen eighty-nine. They actually wanted, when they made this Australian version, they wanted to recruit Michael Staniforth to be Claypole again. But they they hadn't realized he'd actually died two years earlier. Cause he died at 44 of AIDS. And his death had actually been kept sort of under the radar and lots of fans, didn't even know he was dead for years. so it sort of slowly kind of like started to come out. there was a stage version of Renterghosts made in two thousand and six that toured UK theatres and that was written by Joe Pasquale. Ollie: Hmm. Luke: and then in 2010, Warner Brothers bought the rights to Rent A Ghost and they were developing it into a film that was tabled to star Russell Brand. But after Russell Brand's Arthur came out and it bombed, that plan sort of faded away. And then the Renterghost rights were bought by Twentieth Century Fox and they had Ben Stiller. signed up to play the starring role. But again, that didn't move forward either. And then five had you. Ollie: I had read about the Ben Stiller and it kind of makes sense with the supernatural night at the museum side Luke: Yes. Ollie: of what he's interested in. Luke: Yeah. And then finally, in terms of what happened after, the BBC again lost the original tapes of Renter Ghost. The tapes that they were using, they became sort of defunct in terms of they were they changed the technology, the sort of things that they were recording on. So they decided to sell their old tapes that they didn't use anymore. To a TV production company in another country, I think it was Indonesia, because they were still using that technology and they just gave them the tapes with Rentighhost originals on. Later on, years later, yeah yeah. Luckily they Ollie: just to tape over. Luke: didn't tape over actually and they were able to somehow recapture the original Rentighost. they are still around. But again, just letting those tapes go for sale. Ollie: Where was that that happened before? that with the goodies that you spoke about that as well? Luke: Yeah. Yeah. So that brings us to the end of that Renter Ghost, end game. I think we'll know again the majority of these people sadly have passed on. So I was gonna ask you instead about Dobby the Horse. is Doppy the Horse still alive? Ollie: the construct like the the Luke: You're gonna have to break it down. What is d what is Dobby the Horse? Ollie: the outfit or the people inside. Dobby the horse is a pantomime horse so traditionally Luke: yes. Ollie: pantomime horses one person at the front one person at the back I'm not going to assume it's the same people every time in there it doesn't need to be does it so you must be talking about the outfit the costume. Luke: No, I was talking about the people actually. it was the same people. Ollie: Right, wow. Are they still alive? 81. They would have had to be quite young because quite a physically demanding role. Yeah, they're gonna be alive. Luke: Yeah, I I enjoy your your level of level of thought when trying to work these things out. So yeah, William Perry, who was in one end of Dobby, was a former royal ballet dancer. So yeah, like you say, Ollie: Yeah. Luke: physically fit. He had previous costume experience. He'd been inside costumes on Doctor Who and Blake Seven. Unfortunately, he did die in 2018. However, the other half of the horse, John Asquith, He'd been inside a a costume with Perry P He'd been inside a costume with Ollie: Just the phrase beat inside. Sorry. Luke: Perry before. They'd worked together before. as far as we know, there's no record of him p pass away. His IMDB has not got a death on it, so we believe he's still alive. He he hasn't worked for some time, but he did go on to play the Loch Ness Monster. And a a lobster. It it I don't know what in. I don't know what in, but he got inside of he's he got inside other outfits. we're gonna try and build the best. Patreon in the world, and we want early members to be credited for their support. 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