Latest / The MOOD Podcast / How Photography Helped Him Survive Not Belonging Anywhere: Marshall To, EO102

Transcript

How Photography Helped Him Survive Not Belonging Anywhere: Marshall To, EO102 · The MOOD Podcast

• 0:00
  Matt Jacob: Welcome to the Mood Podcast, uncovering the art of conversation through the lens of photography and creativity, one frame at a time.
• 0:08
  Matt Jacob: I'm your host, Matt Jacob, and thanks for joining me again.
• 0:11
  Matt Jacob: My guest today is Marshall Toe, a multidisciplinary artist and chef whose debut monograph, Blank Notes, published by Charcoal Press, explores the veil between the natural and the supernatural.
• 0:25
  Matt Jacob: Raised in a Taoist family in rural Canada, Marshall grew up between two worlds, the Western landscape outside his door, and the Eastern cosmology inside his home.
• 0:36
  Matt Jacob: In my chat with him, we really talk about many things, one of which being the Hungry Ghost Festival and the Taoist rituals that inspired the book, but also the way food became his first language of expression, and how photography evolved into a spiritual offering to both the living and the dead.
• 0:54
  Matt Jacob: We discuss identity, belief, cultural duality, and what it means to make art that serves as both remembrance and release.
• 1:02
  Matt Jacob: This is blank notes, and this is Marshall Toe on ghosts, ancestry, and the quiet act of feeding the unseen.
• 1:11
  Matt Jacob: Enjoy.
• 1:12
  Matt Jacob: Marshall Toe, welcome to the Moo Podcast.
• 1:22
  Matt Jacob: Thanks for joining me.
• 1:24
  Marshall To: Thanks for having me.
• 1:24
  Marshall To: Nice to meet you too.
• 1:26
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, we haven't met before, but we have been connected through mainly through the release of your latest book and um which we're getting we're gonna talk about.
• 1:34
  Matt Jacob: But to set the stage, just kind of speak to us about, I guess, your roots and evolution of your practice for those that don't know you and those meeting you for the first time.
• 1:45
  Marshall To: So I grew up in a place called Red Deer, Alberta, which is uh halfway town from Calgary to Edmonton.
• 1:55
  Marshall To: And I was we're probably one of the very few Chinese families in the city.
• 2:01
  Marshall To: And my grandparents opened up a restaurant, which my dad ended up taking over.
• 2:06
  Marshall To: And it slowly just became you know my whole life and like our identity in the in a in a place where you know we were outsiders, but it was kind of like everyone came, everyone came there to uh you know experience our culture, and it was, I guess, our like our way of showing them.
• 2:31
  Marshall To: Yeah, and and you know, I had a a hard time, yeah.
• 2:37
  Marshall To: I was you know, I grew up as a Chinese person in in Greek day, Alberta playing hockey and you know, liking a lot of the simple Canadian stuff, but didn't really fit into one or the other.
• 2:49
  Marshall To: And so that was I think that kind of started it all for me.
• 2:53
  Marshall To: Just like this when you never really find your identity, or you have like five or ten or whatever, and then you continuously find it and you're just perpetually lost at the same time.
• 3:07
  Matt Jacob: Chinese heritage ancestry, and and you were remember remind us you were born in Canada or you were born in China and then moved over?
• 3:15
  Marshall To: I was born in I was born in Canada.
• 3:17
  Marshall To: Uh I was yeah, born in Red Deer.
• 3:20
  Marshall To: Okay.
• 3:20
  Marshall To: Uh which is yeah, like a town of 32,000, I think now.
• 3:25
  unknown: Yeah.
• 3:26
  Matt Jacob: With Chinese parents.
• 3:27
  Marshall To: Yeah, Chinese parents.
• 3:28
  Marshall To: My mom came from Guangdong, and then my dad came from Hong Kong.
• 3:32
  Marshall To: My mom grew up in the Cultural Revolution and was sponsored to come over to Canada at a very young age.
• 3:41
  Marshall To: My parents vet like I think 13 and 14 or 15 and 16.
• 3:48
  Marshall To: And I think they met them in Alberta.
• 3:53
  Matt Jacob: Okay.
• 3:54
  Matt Jacob: So why why why Canada and what was what was the process or progress, I should say, in terms of finding that ent identity where photography came in?
• 4:08
  Matt Jacob: When you know, when did you pick up your camera and did it really help you kind of like fit in a little bit more, or like at least feel a bit more of identity or purpose?
• 4:17
  Marshall To: Yeah, the I didn't pick up camera until probably 27.
• 4:22
  Marshall To: I was I like I I I used to draw.
• 4:27
  Marshall To: I I started off by drawing a lot of different things.
• 4:30
  Marshall To: Um my brother's a a comic book writer, so when we were kids, we would continuously draw and and uh he he he went up to obviously becoming a comic book artist.
• 4:41
  Marshall To: And I kind of if I didn't have his kind of example of like what how you could do it and that it was possible, I don't think that I don't think I would have even tried to do it.
• 4:54
  Marshall To: But I kind of I kind of like was out of options when I got to about 27.
• 5:00
  Marshall To: I couldn't couldn't think of what else I wanted to do, but I was always decent at certain things, so I just tried to uh I started taking photos of food and that kind of what started the journey.
• 5:15
  Marshall To: But it was it was like it was fun, it was fun, you know, making you know elaborate dinners and and photographing them and you know making everything look pretty, but at a certain point it was it just became very hollow or just didn't have like the depth that I was searching for.
• 5:35
  Marshall To: And then so I just started photographing animals because I remember when I was a kid, I would just watch national geographic videos for you know hours to the point where my brother and my sister hid them all for me.
• 5:48
  Marshall To: And and I, you know, I was just I was so obsessed that they I I still can't find it to this day, that specific National Geographic video that they took.
• 6:02
  Marshall To: But that's pretty much what inspired me down the path of just finding more depth within like the medium.
• 6:10
  Marshall To: And then I think that completely opened me up to like being, or at least the beginnings of being an artist.
• 6:20
  Matt Jacob: Okay, sorry to cut away and interrupt, but I did want to mention the current sponsor of the show.
• 6:26
  Matt Jacob: And it's not often we have sponsors on the Moo podcast, but I really did want to connect with this project and feature them as much as possible where I could.
• 6:33
  Matt Jacob: They are Strata Editions, which is an experimental photography project and store in Livingston, Montana, in the US, whom I had the luxury to visit when I was passing through a while back on a photography project, and I was blown away.
• 6:48
  Matt Jacob: They are primarily a photo book store and exhibition gallery space, presenting collections of photo books, photographic art, and furniture, all designed in-house.
• 6:58
  Matt Jacob: By focusing on visual and material work through a thematic lens, they offer a space to consider the relationships between photography, self, environment, and production.
• 7:09
  Matt Jacob: The works they share tell stories about themselves as well as how they tell the stories that matter to them.
• 7:16
  Matt Jacob: Physically, Strata Editions serves as a reading room, workshop, and exhibition space for anyone who passes through its doors.
• 7:24
  Matt Jacob: Online, their e-commerce game in the photo book world is legit, and some of the books in their collections are not even readily available for purchase anywhere else.
• 7:34
  Matt Jacob: They're either sold out or out of print or imported.
• 7:38
  Matt Jacob: The titles they offer have been made available directly by the publishers or the artists themselves, and their hope is that you'll want to share these books with friends and family and add them to your own library, and I highly recommend you do.
• 7:52
  Matt Jacob: I have a few of my own favorite books from these guys.
• 7:55
  Matt Jacob: I love them.
• 7:56
  Matt Jacob: They offer artist exhibitions and shows consistently also throughout the year, and continue in their own reflections on the relationship between people and environment in this region.
• 8:07
  Matt Jacob: So go check them out.
• 8:09
  Matt Jacob: They're great guys, excellent platform.
• 8:12
  Matt Jacob: Shoot them a follow.
• 8:13
  Matt Jacob: Use the discount code in the description to grab a 10% discount on your order.
• 8:17
  Matt Jacob: Do be mindful though, they do only ship inside the US at this stage.
• 8:22
  Matt Jacob: All right, back to the episode.
• 8:24
  Matt Jacob: Why the define depth for us?
• 8:27
  Matt Jacob: So why why would this kind of like urge to find this kind of almost abstract thing that we call depth in in photography?
• 8:37
  Marshall To: I think it's like it's it's like uh like dissecting your own humanity and everything that you'd been through, pain, heartbreak, and everything, and trying to find a way to use that all to create something, you know, to like and photographing was kind of that was also soothing for me, especially like photographing wildlife.
• 9:03
  Marshall To: It was it was definitely moments where you're able to really be in be in the moment completely and be like my I remember I stumbled upon a wolf just in in this in this valley, and it it got way too close.
• 9:23
  Marshall To: I got way too close to it, and my heart just started pounding like crazy.
• 9:27
  Marshall To: And I was scared, but I was you know, I was so thrilled.
• 9:32
  Marshall To: And that's not the picture that's in the book, but it's definitely one of those moments where you know it soothed me, it it excited me, it you know, gave me everything that I think I ever needed and wanted.
• 9:47
  Matt Jacob: Wow.
• 9:48
  Matt Jacob: Very, very powerful.
• 9:49
  Matt Jacob: What what was this what were you trying to soothe, do you think?
• 9:53
  Matt Jacob: Was it this kind of upbringing and and loss of identity, not really kind of knowing your place in your immediate world as well as kind of the the the wider world in general?
• 10:04
  Marshall To: Yeah, I I think so.
• 10:05
  Marshall To: I think a lot of us artists feel the world and see the world a different way, and a lot of that is, you know, there's a lot of pain with that.
• 10:14
  Marshall To: There's a lot of you know of that um sense of sense of loss and sense of um, you know, just trying to trying to find who you are, which is so it's yeah, I I don't I don't I don't really know.
• 10:31
  Marshall To: It's so reactive.
• 10:33
  Marshall To: You know, it's you know, I I think like Jesse, the you know, the founder of Charcoal, he always talks about it as an addiction.
• 10:42
  Marshall To: And I I don't go as far as calling it an addiction, but it's definitely something that is impulsive, incredibly impulsive.
• 10:52
  Marshall To: And it's it's beautifully impulsive.
• 10:54
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, so it it it's I I empathize with that a lot.
• 10:58
  Matt Jacob: It's it's this something from deep, deep within that that you know we call it impulsive or innate that that comes out through through camera.
• 11:07
  Matt Jacob: We kind of try and make sense of it afterwards, right, in a retrospective way, which is why photo books are so wonderful and sequencing and editing and and kind of that almost posthumous look at what we've what we've lost or what we've trying to find in terms of uh the images that that we're making.
• 11:24
  Matt Jacob: So that kind of brings me on to the book, right?
• 11:28
  Matt Jacob: We we really want to kind of go go deep into what you've just put out there in the world, which is a a wonderful piece of work.
• 11:35
  Matt Jacob: I mean, I don't have physical copy, but the physical copy looks, from what I can tell, looks pretty epic in terms of the design and the structure.
• 11:42
  Matt Jacob: We'll talk about that.
• 11:43
  Matt Jacob: I've been privileged to have an online copy and obviously seen seen a lot of a lot of that.
• 11:48
  Matt Jacob: Tell us about it.
• 11:50
  Matt Jacob: Let's just start kind of with the title blank notes and tell us about kind of the the subject matter, how it came about, the process, and just kind of your philosophies around what you you're putting out there with this book.
• 12:02
  Marshall To: Yeah, yeah, it was I think Jesse and I had met about seven years ago at particular review, and my work was it lacked depth at that point.
• 12:16
  Marshall To: It was most mainly food, a feed portraits, and things like that.
• 12:21
  Marshall To: And it was encouraged for me to to find more depth.
• 12:28
  Marshall To: I it was it was hard, it was hard going there the first time.
• 12:34
  Marshall To: You know, I I never had any sort of criticism.
• 12:36
  Marshall To: So that was the beginning of that journey of just you know changing my medium.
• 12:42
  Marshall To: It was I was using digital at that time, and not to say the digital's field are bad, but you know, in order to find that different feel, I definitely went towards film.
• 12:51
  Marshall To: And so that started the journey of just like creating a different narrative that was beyond you know the reality that you see it in your in your media environment.
• 13:03
  Marshall To: Like Daido Moriyama, uh Daiske, Yakoda, like people like especially Japanese Vataris, Masi Safase, were these inspirations early on in that work that kind of gave me the idea that I could make work that was not so literal, and that I could make a you know, I can make work, uh long format work, and make it into kind of a movie.
• 13:31
  Marshall To: And you look through it like scenes in a in a slow black and white movie, and with you know, so many mentors in my life like Jesse Lenz and Igor Posner, who kind of really opened my mind to movies and different books, because I was very naive at that moment.
• 13:50
  Marshall To: I was just I was just doing it impulsively.
• 13:53
  Marshall To: I wasn't really thinking about anything.
• 13:55
  Marshall To: But with a lot of you know mentorship, they kind of just opened me up and I was able to find that you know what makes anyone's work unique and especially mine is you know everything that I bring to it, my my story, things that have happened in my life, whether they're good or bad, and you know, bringing it to the surface and creating from that feeling as opposed to creating it literally was very beneficial for me.
• 14:24
  Marshall To: You know, like the the emotions kind of just bled into that creativity and it allowed for it to continuously flow and and then I got too into Japanese horror films, you know, and and then all that inspiration just kept going and going, and things were happening in my life that were good and bad.
• 14:48
  Marshall To: There was a lot of you know struggle at that moment of of family health and things like that.
• 14:53
  Marshall To: The and uh yeah, I definitely used a lot of that to like help me deal with it.
• 15:01
  Marshall To: You know, you bring it to the surface and you take some photos, and you know, there's like my dad's writings just in the beginning of the book, there's he would write these Buddhist prayers continuously over and over again, and we decided to put it at the front and the back of the book.
• 15:20
  Marshall To: And when you open it up, you can you can feel it.
• 15:23
  Marshall To: It's very it's a physical thing as well as it's um you know a visual thing.
• 15:28
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, it's uh it's also I mean I I can't wait to actually to touch it.
• 15:32
  Matt Jacob: But tell us a little bit about uh I I I imagine kind of those life struggles that you had with family health.
• 15:38
  Matt Jacob: You can share with us that if you want to, if not, I totally understand.
• 15:42
  Matt Jacob: But it seems like that was a real kind of spark for for the I guess the theme of this book, or certainly the thematic focus and the relationship with life and death and and afterlife, before life.
• 15:55
  Matt Jacob: Is is that true in essence?
• 15:58
  Marshall To: Yeah, I mean, growing up, uh especially with all these rituals, it weirdly influenced me, and also, you know, it's yeah, and you know, it's it's something that I'm not I you know, I'm not even sure if it's necessarily real or not, but it it it you know the the life and death part and the in-between has always felt pretty close to me, and and whether I wanted to or not, you know, I when I was growing up, I would I would have found out doors slammed shut, you know, open in in my room and there'd be nothing there.
• 16:37
  Marshall To: So it's always kind of been around lurping.
• 16:41
  Marshall To: And like during this kind of uh episode of of like family health, I I'd been feeling very desperate.
• 16:53
  Marshall To: And you know, when you're desperate, you kind of pray to the heavens and and things like that.
• 16:59
  Marshall To: And you know, things that I'd kind of forgot about as a child or you know, chose not to really bring with me to adulthood kind of came back.
• 17:12
  Marshall To: Not not in the way that it did when I was a child, but as an adult, I would get visits in my dreams from people that have passed on, or things like that.
• 17:23
  Marshall To: So it I don't know if art was imitating life or life was imitating art, but uh you know, it was definitely something that's always been very like.
• 17:35
  Marshall To: Did you ever feel like you walk around and there's someone behind you but there's no one there at all?
• 17:42
  Matt Jacob: Mm-hmm.
• 17:43
  Marshall To: I I feel like I felt like that my whole life.
• 17:46
  Matt Jacob: That's a really good uh analogy, actually, to get to kind of describe the book.
• 17:51
  Matt Jacob: And that's kind of how it made me feel looking through this.
• 17:53
  Matt Jacob: And there's you know, for for people, just some context for people listening and and and watching you who obviously may not have the book yet, but Jesse Lenz, as in kind of charcoal press, you mentioned Jesse, he's he's founder of Charcoal Press, which published the published the book.
• 18:09
  Matt Jacob: And the book is centered around Taoism, right?
• 18:13
  Matt Jacob: So it am I correct in thinking it's your father that has this or had has this belief that we live in a supernatural world that existed with the physical world?
• 18:23
  Marshall To: Yeah, uh it's it's definitely both both my parents and apparently the story is is that they started believing in a lot of this stuff because of me.
• 18:32
  Marshall To: I was very I was very sick as a child.
• 18:35
  Marshall To: Okay and I was very, very sensitive.
• 18:40
  Marshall To: Uh I don't know if I don't I don't know if like I don't want it to become like a ghost podcast and tell more and tell more stories, but yeah, come on, give us a go.
• 18:52
  Matt Jacob: It's Halloween.
• 18:53
  Matt Jacob: We're five days away from Halloween.
• 18:57
  Marshall To: But uh yeah, I was an extremely sensitive kid, and we we would have these rituals and these festivals, the the Hungry Ghost Festival, and and anytime it's an anniversary of a of an ancestor, we would go to their we would go to their grave sites and offer food and leave food, burn paper offerings, which uh pretty much blank notes, that's kind of where it comes from, is like the the burning of joss paper to the afterlife for for the for the deceased to spend money in the afterlife.
• 19:31
  Marshall To: So whenever I was a child, after that I'd be coming home and I would just I would start getting a fever.
• 19:39
  Marshall To: And it's happened probably three or four times in my life, where immediately after being in the cemetery, I would I would get a really, really high fever, and I would feel like I would be being twisted inside out.
• 19:54
  Marshall To: And uh I remember my my parents one time when I was at my oldest, which probably was about 12 at the time, I remember just burning.
• 20:06
  Marshall To: I was seeing red, and they put me in front of the altar, you know, in the middle of the night.
• 20:12
  Marshall To: I was screaming my head off.
• 20:14
  Marshall To: And I could just hear them pray and pray and pray.
• 20:17
  Marshall To: And then I heard a crack in the ceiling, and then it just went silent.
• 20:24
  Marshall To: And then the the the fever broke, and I kind of washed my hands of everything.
• 20:31
  Marshall To: I was like, I don't want any part of this, this is way too scary.
• 20:35
  Marshall To: You know, so my parents started, they only told me this recently, that they only started believing in all the stuff because of me, because I scared them to death.
• 20:50
  Matt Jacob: And if that's funny or not, bless them.
• 20:53
  Marshall To: I know, right?
• 20:54
  Marshall To: It's it's funny because you know, I'm 39 now and they just told me this.
• 21:00
  Marshall To: So it's been yeah, it's now I practice those rituals a little bit more because they they need more to be a little bit as an adult, especially having you know, people in your life passing away and and feeling and and falling ill.
• 21:20
  Marshall To: So I you know, I I'm not as protected from the ignorance of being young anymore.
• 21:27
  Marshall To: You know, I now I feel everything, and now I like need more help, whether that's from above or on the ground, whether it's real or not, I don't know.
• 21:38
  Marshall To: But you know, I'm like, please help me.
• 21:41
  Marshall To: Anyone.
• 21:43
  Matt Jacob: And so so this is a belief system that's that's uh that's kind of infused in you now.
• 21:49
  Marshall To: Yeah, more or less.
• 21:50
  Marshall To: I I'm not like I don't practice a ton, but I don't really believe in practice.
• 21:56
  Marshall To: I just you know, it's like I'm I have one foot out, uh one foot out, one foot in.
• 22:02
  Marshall To: And you know, it's it's something that you know I will still celebrate with my parents and I will still burn incense, you know, on specific days, and my parents do every morning, and they will ask for protection over us.
• 22:18
  Marshall To: And I I do it in my own way.
• 22:20
  Marshall To: I do uh I do it when I'm working, I do it when I'm driving, and I have my own thoughts myself, you know.
• 22:26
  Marshall To: Because if there's something there, they're not gonna care if I burn incense or not, you know.
• 22:36
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, I get that.
• 22:37
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 22:38
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, why why have you seen other than kind of like these events that you said you've had three or four times, has there been anything else that has been a little bit more visceral in terms of like the visual feel?
• 22:50
  Matt Jacob: Have you ever seen like any ghosts or you any other kind of examples or stories that are really kind of prevalent in in the real world?
• 23:00
  Marshall To: I can tell you two stories.
• 23:02
  Marshall To: Uh one I don't remember.
• 23:06
  Marshall To: Uh one we can't tell us two.
• 23:10
  Matt Jacob: You can't tell us two then.
• 23:11
  Matt Jacob: You can only tell us one.
• 23:12
  Matt Jacob: Okay, okay.
• 23:14
  Marshall To: Well, the the the first one is my my brother that he thought it was him that that happened to, and it was actually me.
• 23:20
  Marshall To: And it's something that we only just found out as well.
• 23:24
  Matt Jacob: Okay.
• 23:24
  Marshall To: But this was okay, so this was probably about four four years ago.
• 23:29
  Marshall To: This was just after COVID, and and everything was, you know, going back to normal life.
• 23:35
  Marshall To: And I'm a big tennis player, I love tennis, so I went to go play tennis with a friend of mine, and the one of the big tennis courts near here is a place called Queen Elizabeth Park.
• 23:48
  Marshall To: And it's um, you know, it's quite it's not heavily wooded, but there's trees.
• 23:53
  Marshall To: People sleep there.
• 23:55
  Marshall To: But one morning I noticed that someone was sleeping underneath a tree.
• 24:02
  Marshall To: And uh I, you know, didn't think much of it.
• 24:07
  Marshall To: I just thought it was a normal person.
• 24:09
  Marshall To: Yeah, I mean, you just see it kind of all over Vancouver, so I didn't really think twice, but I came when I came back down, I noticed that he was still in the same like position, but and when I got closer, his hands were kind of up in the air a little bit.
• 24:27
  Marshall To: Uh kind of like just off to a side like this.
• 24:32
  Marshall To: And I got closer and and it turns out that the the gentleman was had had passed.
• 24:40
  Marshall To: And yeah, it was it was it was it was something I definitely had never seen before in public.
• 24:47
  Marshall To: Definitely seen, you know, my grandparents.
• 24:50
  Marshall To: But uh it's interesting the thoughts that go through your head when something like when you see something like that.
• 24:57
  Marshall To: And so I definitely was thinking to myself about I wonder if this person had people that cared for him.
• 25:05
  Marshall To: Yeah, I called the you know, the authorities and everything happened, you know, accordingly, and I I didn't go back.
• 25:13
  Marshall To: I didn't go back to the tennis sports for a while.
• 25:16
  Marshall To: But about six weeks later, I go back and I I I parked my car.
• 25:23
  Marshall To: I tried to not park so close to where I found the gentleman.
• 25:28
  Marshall To: And I park my car, so maybe just like I don't know, a block away.
• 25:33
  Marshall To: And I get out of my car and I see a Ziploc bag of pictures.
• 25:37
  Marshall To: And it says it says, I love you, Max.
• 25:41
  Matt Jacob: Well, on the floor?
• 25:42
  Marshall To: On the on the ground, on the grass.
• 25:44
  Matt Jacob: Okay.
• 25:44
  Marshall To: A ziploc bag of pictures that says I love you, Max, and it's I'm pretty sure, 99% sure that it's this gentleman as a young person.
• 25:53
  Marshall To: And I opened it up and I looked at the pictures.
• 25:57
  Marshall To: I was curious.
• 25:58
  Marshall To: I was you know, it it everything was pretty accurate.
• 26:04
  Marshall To: I I, you know, resembled that person.
• 26:07
  Marshall To: But that night I had a dream that a a decomposing corpse was trying to grab me.
• 26:13
  Marshall To: And then when I woke up, I was on my knees on my bed, like with my head in my in my knees.
• 26:22
  Marshall To: And I felt like I'd been awake for like hours.
• 26:26
  Marshall To: And yeah, it's one of the and that's one of the things that started happening was things started coming into my dreams.
• 26:37
  Matt Jacob: That's yeah, that's kind of eerie.
• 26:39
  Matt Jacob: And lots of it's di it's difficult, isn't it?
• 26:43
  Matt Jacob: It's like I I've I haven't had experiences like that before, but you know, I heard I've heard many people with kind of these abnormal experiences without actually like you know, having kind of that scientific evidence in front of you, and it's just like there's there's something there's something to be to be said for these types of experiences, or at least what's going on in the body, in the spirit, in the mind.
• 27:08
  Matt Jacob: Whether that's something to do with the afterlife or not, I don't know.
• 27:12
  Matt Jacob: But there's there's something, isn't it?
• 27:13
  Matt Jacob: There's definitely like an energy around these experiences.
• 27:16
  Marshall To: Yeah.
• 27:17
  Marshall To: My my mom has these dreams where when people pass away in our life, she has dreams that and they come visit her.
• 27:24
  Marshall To: And and I never believed my mom.
• 27:25
  Marshall To: I was like, I was like, yeah, that's that's all you.
• 27:29
  Marshall To: But now now I ask her, now I ask her what a lot of this means, you know, have like having people visit you in your dreams while you're traveling.
• 27:40
  Marshall To: Like I had a dream about a friend that passed away, and we were on a plane, and he was telling me what it felt like to travel.
• 27:47
  Marshall To: Um and so I asked my mom what that meant, and she for her, she she know she believes that it means that they're moving on.
• 27:55
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, and this is evident in your in the in the book, right?
• 27:58
  Matt Jacob: If we bring it back to the book, the this the way you depict this thinning veil between natural and supernatural, and this kind of this kind of opaque line between the two and the crossing over, and there's just a kind of kind of wonderful ambiguity to it, and this wonderful atmosphere to to these images.
• 28:20
  Matt Jacob: And when you're creating these images, did you have this theme in mind?
• 28:25
  Matt Jacob: And did you have this, you know, obviously it allowed you to kind of dive a little bit deeper into this this topic and your family and your family belief system as well as your own?
• 28:35
  Matt Jacob: But did you was this kind of uh I mean we talked about being reactive and and kind of being instinctive, but was this an idea that you had and then you went and shot, or how did it kind of formulate?
• 28:47
  Marshall To: I don't like I I I I don't think I ever wanted to be broken, like I didn't really want I wanted it to be like easy and pretty, you know, at the beginning stages of of you know the idea of being an artist.
• 29:03
  Marshall To: I didn't I didn't necessarily want to be like like like I w I didn't I didn't really want it to be so raw, but I didn't understand or have never s I didn't see people's work like yeah, I wasn't shown work that could you know like Raymond Meeks You know his work is so so like raw and I never seen any work like that before and and I just wanted to to figure out how to do that and uh and and so that meant like breaking my mold and I after that kinda happened and then like talking about the influences that that kind of came after, it really just meant like finding subject matter that I liked.
• 29:59
  Marshall To: And then being in that feeling just to accept something.
• 30:04
  Marshall To: Like a lot of times I'd be, you know, parked walking alone at night and scared out of my mind.
• 30:10
  Marshall To: And trying to photograph whatever with a with a headlamp and a flash, you know, with noises going everywhere.
• 30:19
  Marshall To: You know, so I just wanted to like, I I just tried to keep that feeling, whatever that was, and just go out every night.
• 30:27
  Marshall To: And and try to capture that feeling to whatever whatever subject matter that was.
• 30:34
  Marshall To: So the thematically it it it kind of just it just a vault.
• 30:41
  Marshall To: And then near the end, it definitely became more purposeful.
• 30:47
  Marshall To: Of like there's there's a girl in the woods in in the book, my friend Kenui, and she's this wonderful Japanese dancer.
• 30:56
  Marshall To: And I had an idea of her just dancing in the woods at night, and just just taking video of it.
• 31:04
  Marshall To: And so, you know, just photographed it.
• 31:06
  Marshall To: I think that's like one of the very few shots that are is is like the whole scene was created.
• 31:16
  Marshall To: It was a completely natural, but in in lots of ways very, very natural.
• 31:22
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, so so many like cool shots.
• 31:25
  Matt Jacob: A few more qu yeah obviously a few more questions, but the the you talked about the subject matter, and that's quite important because it's relates to the hungry ghosts, right?
• 31:34
  Matt Jacob: So can you give us can you explain to us, I guess, Taoism in general, but this this belief and you know that the time of year when the gates of hell open to the hungry ghosts and what kind of form they take?
• 31:46
  Matt Jacob: Can you just give us a give us a synopsis about that?
• 31:49
  Marshall To: My parents always just told me that you know during these festivals not to do anything dumb outside at night.
• 31:55
  Marshall To: Otherwise, people would like things would just follow you home.
• 31:59
  Marshall To: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:01
  Marshall To: I was I was actually very I would like you know you know be very polite, you know, at night and just you know kind of uh you know um speak uh speak politely to the to the ether.
• 32:14
  Marshall To: And so, but uh yeah, looking more into it, you know, it's the so during the festival you leave food and incense out so that like so that your family members can find their way back home and they will have a great feast.
• 32:41
  Marshall To: But for those that their families or don't have families, or their families don't leave anything out there, they just tend to wander and they become kind of malevolent, right?
• 32:54
  Marshall To: That's the word.
• 32:55
  Matt Jacob: Malevolent malevolent, yeah, yeah.
• 32:57
  Matt Jacob: Malevolent, yeah, yeah.
• 32:58
  Matt Jacob: Sorry.
• 32:59
  Matt Jacob: Too early on Sunday morning.
• 33:03
  Marshall To: Yeah, then they and then they kind of they're they're hungry, they're hunger for, you know, for for love and family and and food.
• 33:11
  Marshall To: And say, you know, they they definitely attach themselves.
• 33:15
  Marshall To: And that's that's kind of how, you know, or how I felt, you know, talking about this story when I was a kid coming back from a cemetery.
• 33:25
  Marshall To: That that's how my mom explained it, that someone came with me.
• 33:30
  Marshall To: Because I was probably, you know, I was a kid, I was probably just like running around on gravestones and whatever, right?
• 33:37
  Marshall To: You know, uh, that I perhaps was being disrespectful and something came home.
• 33:44
  Marshall To: So it was always, you know, it was always a fear for me, even now.
• 33:51
  Marshall To: And uh the and the forms that they can take to me, and especially in this book, like you know, they they can take many forms.
• 34:01
  Marshall To: Like you see the owl as being being a familiar in the book, but it could be anything, honestly.
• 34:09
  Marshall To: It could it could turn, you know, it's like you go through a force not knowing, like a dark force not knowing, you know, who's actually trying to help you, or who's leading you down a path that's actually not good.
• 34:24
  Matt Jacob: So scary.
• 34:25
  Matt Jacob: I mean, as a ch as a child, like telling you these these stories.
• 34:30
  Matt Jacob: I mean, obviously that your parents had your best interests at heart, but you must have been petrified.
• 34:35
  Marshall To: Yeah, I mean, it they keep your kids in line.
• 34:38
  Marshall To: Do you have kids?
• 34:39
  Matt Jacob: That was what I was gonna say.
• 34:40
  Matt Jacob: There's another the there's another thing to this.
• 34:43
  Matt Jacob: It may have just been like they may have been pushing it a little bit more just to keep you behaved, keep you well behaved.
• 34:48
  Marshall To: Well, yeah, that's what I'm thinking.
• 34:49
  Marshall To: I'm like, I don't know if it's actually real or not, per se.
• 34:52
  Marshall To: But I know that I'm disciplinary tool.
• 34:55
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:55
  Matt Jacob: Yeah.
• 34:56
  Matt Jacob: So this book is just for nothing, basically.
• 35:01
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, yeah.
• 35:02
  Matt Jacob: No, well, tell tell me about the tell me about the the technical side of things because you know, I I love this this this kind of how how would I describe it?
• 35:11
  Matt Jacob: This this almost vintage antique look to to the images, obviously shot on film.
• 35:18
  Matt Jacob: Did you do any like a post-processing with it to add any kind of effects?
• 35:23
  Matt Jacob: I mean, there's so many, so many cool images.
• 35:25
  Matt Jacob: I I'm looking at one now.
• 35:26
  Matt Jacob: One is this one has got two people walking down a sorry, one person walking, I think the other one's on a bike, walking down a winding road.
• 35:34
  Matt Jacob: One's got a reflection upon, but which is a strong image in itself.
• 35:38
  Matt Jacob: But then there's this this thing that looks like an artifact from film on on the top of the image, which is in the shape of like the quintessential ghost shape, right?
• 35:49
  Matt Jacob: And it gives like this this texture and this kind of ethereal feeling to the image.
• 35:55
  Matt Jacob: So that's just one example of many of where I think kind of the the aesthetic texture of these images really kind of adds that that real supernatural feeling.
• 36:04
  Matt Jacob: How did you go about doing that?
• 36:06
  Matt Jacob: And was that a conscious style decision?
• 36:10
  Marshall To: Uh that's it's it's it's funny.
• 36:13
  Marshall To: I've been having this conversation a lot, and Jesse really hated, you know, dealing with all these negatives.
• 36:23
  Matt Jacob: Oh, really?
• 36:24
  Marshall To: Yeah, he hated the fact that there's dust on everything.
• 36:27
  Marshall To: There was, you know, like his hard hard negatives to scan.
• 36:30
  Marshall To: But there's there's a part of I think just my my personal being too where I just don't think anything's too precious.
• 36:39
  Marshall To: And I don't, especially art, I don't love like like I don't want to look at a book with white gloves.
• 36:46
  Marshall To: That's that's my personal preference.
• 36:48
  Marshall To: But you know, like everything deserves to be created and destroyed and ruined to me.
• 36:54
  Marshall To: Just like reality.
• 36:56
  Marshall To: You can't keep anything perfect.
• 36:58
  Marshall To: And so that's kind of just my personal not philosophy, but just like lazy fair, you know.
• 37:07
  Marshall To: But then also I love I I like I just didn't want anything to be pristine anymore.
• 37:13
  Marshall To: So I kind of pushed it to, you know, really some of it soaking the film in liquids, and you know, near the end to really give it even more intense feeling.
• 37:28
  Marshall To: But but at the beginning, it was it was just this, you know, kind of mindless, like I was just shooting, shooting, shooting, developing as much as I could, and I was just learning to develop my own film.
• 37:42
  Marshall To: So a lot, and I was doing it in my own bathroom, so a lot of it was you know just mistakes and and willing to make the mistakes, and then finding that that greatness in it, or you know, sorry, I don't want to use the word greatness, but you know, the stuff that really got me excited, and it was it was because of making mistakes, because I don't think this work would work as well if it was super polished.
• 38:08
  Matt Jacob: No, I I absolutely not.
• 38:10
  Matt Jacob: It uh like I said, it adds an even kind of more um visceral layer onto the theme, right?
• 38:16
  Matt Jacob: And onto the the the story and the the um kind of this n narrative suggestion that you're you're depicting in the book.
• 38:23
  Matt Jacob: So I think it I mean obviously it works perfectly, otherwise, you know, you wouldn't be wouldn't be publishing it, but actually it reminded me like looking through these images again as I as I'm talking to you, like it was so weird that I've heard some of your your kind of eerie stories because last night I woke up at like I don't know 3 a.m.
• 38:44
  Matt Jacob: or something like that and went to the toilet because I'm getting old.
• 38:47
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, and uh and I just had this feeling, like as soon as like the thing entered my mind, like oh what you know, I'm all alone in pitch dark, so I couldn't turn a light on because my wife's sleeping, and I'm just you know what it you obviously you know what that feeling's like, and it was just weird that I was speaking to you, and I never that never really happens to me, but yeah, maybe it's just your aura and your your energy kind of sending from the other side of the world.
• 39:14
  Marshall To: I hope not.
• 39:15
  Marshall To: I mean, I I make fun, I like I I tell I tell my friends that if I ever die, I'm gonna come back as a ghost just to prove it and just think messing with you.
• 39:25
  Matt Jacob: Well, there could be millions of ghosts trying to do that, right?
• 39:28
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, it's true.
• 39:29
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:29
  Matt Jacob: I mean you would, yeah.
• 39:31
  Matt Jacob: Just to just to kind of round this this little bit off with the the blank notes is because I always thought hell notes have I lived in Hong Kong for a decade, and so I kind of have had a had a kind of relatively layman knowledge of of this type of stuff, but hell notes were not blank, right?
• 39:52
  Matt Jacob: So why or or am I wrong with that?
• 39:54
  Matt Jacob: Why the blank notes?
• 39:56
  Matt Jacob: Is it kind of like an offering to to the supernatural?
• 39:58
  Marshall To: Yeah, you know what, like yeah, it's uh yeah, the hell notes for like actual, especially like now like fake money.
• 40:07
  Marshall To: Yeah, you can you can buy them with like actual you know dollar values on it.
• 40:13
  Marshall To: But I think also blank notes is like it's kind of like it's like when my mom for instance in the morning says a prayer and it's just messages going to the sky and they're you know they're just you know they don't have any val like necessary value, but it's yeah, I I it's it's to me it's just like smoke going into the air, you know, and and if it's not even if it's not reaching like uh deities, it's just disappearing into thin air and it's getting out of you.
• 40:58
  Marshall To: You know, it's like it's something that becomes flake because you're just gonna get it out of you and you're you're releasing it.
• 41:07
  Marshall To: You know, because sometimes that's that's like that's that's the most important thing, is like is like like whatever you're trying to like get out of your system and it just becomes nothing.
• 41:19
  Matt Jacob: What do you so other than so what does it represent then in terms of the these blank notes?
• 41:24
  Matt Jacob: Is it kind of is it something that's more personal to you?
• 41:29
  Matt Jacob: Is it like fear, grief, memory, or love, or is it not even that deep?
• 41:33
  Matt Jacob: It's just a kind of observation.
• 41:36
  Marshall To: I think I think for this book, it was specifically for for my family and asking for their just like to find a way for them to get past the and through it.
• 41:48
  Marshall To: There was there's there's a multitude of things that that came up, you know, quite in in succession.
• 41:57
  Marshall To: You know, every every everyone's fine, but it was it was a really difficult time.
• 42:02
  Marshall To: You know, my dad, my dad got ill and it was really difficult.
• 42:06
  Marshall To: It was it was really difficult taking him, you know, through chemo for for a year.
• 42:12
  Marshall To: And you know, as as you as you get to know your parents as they get old, you know, and they're you know, it's tough.
• 42:21
  Marshall To: It's tough, it's tough when they're when they get sick, and you know, they you know, your relationships change.
• 42:28
  Marshall To: And then you watch their relationships change with other people.
• 42:32
  Marshall To: And then uh and then my my brother-in-law got sick, you know, close to the same time.
• 42:39
  Marshall To: I have a niece and my ne uh nephew that I I love very much, and you know, it's uh in their in the book.
• 42:49
  Marshall To: Yeah, it's it's just you you know, you feel helpless, you feel helpless just watching people fall ill and then go through it, yeah.
• 42:56
  Marshall To: You know, and then when two little ones get affected, it's it's and and possibly have you know consequences down the road.
• 43:06
  Marshall To: And it's it's it's a tough it's a it's tough to to like take to know and then take with you.
• 43:15
  Marshall To: So that's that's kind of what a lot of it meant for me was you know yeah, just um finding a way to do it.
• 43:30
  Marshall To: Therapeutic in a way.
• 43:31
  Marshall To: Yeah, exactly.
• 43:32
  Marshall To: Exactly.
• 43:33
  Marshall To: I definitely I definitely use art in a therapeutic way.
• 43:37
  Marshall To: So say whether it's drawing or whatever.
• 43:39
  Matt Jacob: And is this uh this book is it in in is it dedicated to to your family in that sense then?
• 43:46
  Marshall To: Yes, it's definitely it's not written in there, but it's definitely dedicated to my family because uh I mean I I live I I live with my parents and and I'm very close to my sister and and my brother.
• 43:59
  Marshall To: And I you know, I definitely, if not for them, I I truly wouldn't be in this position, just allowing me to yeah, allowing me space and grace to fail and to try to find who I am, because there's not a lot not everyone's family is like that.
• 44:22
  Marshall To: And uh it's good.
• 44:24
  Matt Jacob: I mean the the the family centrality that that Asian culture is is well known for is is sometimes so extremely powerful and you know can also be devastating as as well as if you're if you're that close.
• 44:39
  Matt Jacob: But yeah, it's it's good to it's good to hear you have kind of that familial line drawn under the under the book.
• 44:45
  Matt Jacob: So it's nice to kind of piece that together.
• 44:48
  Matt Jacob: And you talked about identity and kind of knowing who you are.
• 44:51
  Matt Jacob: The other part of you that m many people may not know is that you're a chef, right?
• 44:55
  Matt Jacob: So you're kind of balancing your artistic side uh with a camera as well as your artistic side with food.
• 45:02
  Matt Jacob: Is have you always been a chef?
• 45:04
  Matt Jacob: Is this kind of been your your main career?
• 45:06
  Marshall To: Uh I it's been it's been my longest career.
• 45:09
  Marshall To: I I I started cooking at I started like working and washing dishes probably at 26.
• 45:16
  Marshall To: I dabbled, I tried to do retail before, and I wanted to play basketball before that.
• 45:25
  Marshall To: None of those things panned out.
• 45:27
  Marshall To: But I was always like decent at drawing, and that was kind of my entry point to being artistic, was like, okay, this possibly could be an option.
• 45:38
  Marshall To: But yeah, I I I didn't know what else to do, so I started washing dishes and you know trying my hand at at cooking because my mom's a great cook and I love all of her cooking.
• 45:53
  Marshall To: But I wanted like mac and cheese, and she, you know, she she would make really good mac and cheese with cheese whiz, but I needed something more with some noodles.
• 46:05
  Matt Jacob: She does.
• 46:06
  Matt Jacob: That's stereotyping, but yeah, yeah.
• 46:09
  Matt Jacob: Um so how how do do you how do you think that the the chef world and and making food has influenced how you make photographs, if if at all?
• 46:21
  Matt Jacob: Is have they intertwined in in any sense that you can think of?
• 46:26
  Marshall To: You know, yeah, I I think it's it's a a little bit.
• 46:29
  Marshall To: I mean, it's intertwined in just the also the the cultural beliefs of of offerings and servitude.
• 46:39
  Marshall To: And I think that it is it's a very humbling industry, so that helps.
• 46:48
  Marshall To: But for photographs, I'm not too sure.
• 46:51
  Marshall To: I mean the discipline definitely lends into photographing, you know, the the dedication I would because I do work long shifts 12 to 16 hour days, I could photograph for that long.
• 47:04
  Marshall To: Um because, you know, even if I don't get a single one, you know, I remember driving, you know, I would go to Yellowstone, look for wolves, and drive around for 12 hours a day and just not find anything, but still like have that feeling of excitement of wanting to still do it again the next day.
• 47:28
  Marshall To: You know, because yeah, being a chef, there's like loss of up and ups and downs, like and you're kind of waiting for the heat, you know.
• 47:36
  Marshall To: There's a there's lots of ups and downs, a lot of of a of lull, and sometimes it's like it's feeding into a habit because you really want that super high and super low.
• 47:49
  Marshall To: So yeah, in that way it definitely mimics photography that way.
• 47:55
  Marshall To: I mean, like as if you're going out shooting stuff that you know involves like chasing things, you know.
• 48:02
  Marshall To: Which at that moment I was.
• 48:07
  Matt Jacob: So not not a bad endeavor to go down to Yellowstone for for a few times.
• 48:11
  Matt Jacob: I mean, what a beautiful place that is.
• 48:13
  Marshall To: Yeah.
• 48:13
  Marshall To: Yeah.
• 48:14
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, but I presume you did find some wolves at some point.
• 48:17
  Matt Jacob: I mean, there's some some uh or these wolves that that are in the book or on your website, I think, as well.
• 48:23
  Matt Jacob: Are they they somewhere else?
• 48:25
  Marshall To: Uh no, the wolves are the wolves are in Yellowstone.
• 48:28
  Marshall To: The uh did.
• 48:31
  Marshall To: I did.
• 48:32
  Marshall To: I had some pretty good luck, but but it's like it's just so hard getting photos.
• 48:37
  Marshall To: But most of the other animals are all are all in Canada in uh in like Jasper and and uh Calgary and Vancouver.
• 48:46
  Matt Jacob: Cool.
• 48:47
  Matt Jacob: So now you're feeding the living as well as feeding the unliving.
• 48:52
  Marshall To: That's that's a great way to put it.
• 48:53
  Marshall To: Yeah, that's yeah, and it that whole like art imitating life phase really just come you know full circle in a way.
• 49:03
  Marshall To: Yeah.
• 49:05
  Matt Jacob: Cool, thank you for you.
• 49:06
  Matt Jacob: So what what's what's next?
• 49:07
  Matt Jacob: I mean, now the book's coming out.
• 49:08
  Matt Jacob: How tell us about kind of the publishing process and the PR and kind of the the world that you live in right now as the book gets in people's hands.
• 49:18
  Marshall To: Uh it's a lot of me overthinking and being nervous.
• 49:22
  Marshall To: You know, yeah, it didn't your first book, it's a big deal.
• 49:28
  Marshall To: I know, I know.
• 49:29
  Marshall To: But it's like uh it's um it's just so surreal because you know, we was it's been in the process for so long, and you know, that's you know, you start by telling people, oh, this is gonna happen, this is gonna happen, and then four years go by, people are like, this is still happening.
• 49:47
  Marshall To: Is it four years?
• 49:48
  Marshall To: I mean it was it was like six to seven in its entirety.
• 49:53
  Marshall To: So I I remember telling people very early on, and I was like, oh no, as the years went by, I was like, I mean, I knew that it was happening, but you know, it was but uh anyways, yeah, it's it's it's answering a lot of questions.
• 50:07
  Marshall To: Like I I was doing some interview questions on on my laptop the other day.
• 50:14
  Marshall To: And uh it it's it's hard to get my brain all together to answer everything like the same.
• 50:25
  Marshall To: I don't want there to be any too many discrepancies between you know different platforms asking me similar questions.
• 50:32
  Marshall To: But the the publishing process has has been great.
• 50:36
  Marshall To: I mean, Jesse is very has you know was super hands-on and has helped me out, you know, immensely.
• 50:44
  Marshall To: I pretty much just had to shoot the photos, and we would talk about the different types of paper and the you know, the sizes of the book and the black paper specifically, and you know, and and the size, the the size we were we were we thought that it was imperative to to make it as big as it was, just to have the impact that it uh hopefully it does.
• 51:11
  Matt Jacob: And the sequencing as well.
• 51:12
  Matt Jacob: That's kind kind of kind of a difficult and subjective but important part, right?
• 51:18
  Marshall To: Absolutely.
• 51:19
  Marshall To: It's important to have a really good editor, especially when you're really close to your book, when you're working with personal, you know, subject matter.
• 51:27
  Marshall To: You can't really see what other, you know, what someone else is seeing.
• 51:32
  Marshall To: Which he is then incredible for like really really creating the narrative with the with the sequencer, because I was never I I wasn't very good at it.
• 51:46
  Marshall To: I just threw photos together that I thought that worked well.
• 51:50
  Marshall To: But going from page to page, you know, sometimes it takes someone that has a different, you know, a longer vision.
• 51:59
  Matt Jacob: How has this process changed you, I guess, as a photographer, but also as a human?
• 52:04
  Matt Jacob: I mean, the six years is a long time to kind of have this in the making, but now you've kind of seen firsthand how books are put together and and obviously like the the important decisions that you've had to make together.
• 52:16
  Matt Jacob: How has that enlightened you, if if anything, in terms of kind of the the photography world, but your own process as well as you know, evolving as a as a as a person in that respect, if it if it went that far?
• 52:29
  Marshall To: Yeah, no, absolutely absolutely.
• 52:31
  Marshall To: Yeah, I think at first you just want success, right?
• 52:34
  Marshall To: Like and you want to make it in the world that you want to live in and make money in.
• 52:41
  Marshall To: But after a certain amount of time, you know, the the reality of of all these things, and we were talking about how niche of an industry this is, is that you have to do other things.
• 52:52
  Marshall To: So the dream kind of turns into reality, which reality you have to most likely you have to have another job.
• 53:00
  Marshall To: And you know, so it was it was kind of nice where you know I had a lot of time to settle those dreams down into a more a more realistic vision.
• 53:13
  Marshall To: And so uh I got all those feelings out of the way so that I could just do the work.
• 53:20
  Marshall To: And that was that was key for me to not get too lost into expectations or lofty dreams and just doing it because I felt like I had to.
• 53:33
  Marshall To: And and so now I just work, I just, you know, not even thinking about what project necessarily suits what, but you know, looking at every day if like you see something, just keep shooting, keep creating.
• 53:48
  Marshall To: Don't don't put it in a box just yet.
• 53:51
  Marshall To: You know, just do whatever you can, you know, and then see what it looks like after, because half the fun is just creating.
• 53:59
  Marshall To: And so that's that's a big part of what I learned was just to let go as much as you can.
• 54:06
  Marshall To: Yeah.
• 54:06
  Marshall To: Because something as personal as your first book, especially, you can hold on to it way too tight.
• 54:12
  Marshall To: And it really blinds you from continuing on because you gotta look forward, even though you have this this book coming out, or whatever it is coming out.
• 54:21
  Marshall To: So and then also just trying to see what else I can do.
• 54:24
  Marshall To: Like I love painting and illustrate, and I just did a very uh I did a short film, but eight minutes long, that that uh was very fun.
• 54:36
  Marshall To: It was very fun to ride the waves of creativity that comes with that freedom of letting go.
• 54:44
  Matt Jacob: Love it.
• 54:44
  Matt Jacob: What is the next?
• 54:46
  Matt Jacob: I guess going to Paris Photo, where I guess you'll you'll show people the book, and what is what is the next kind of couple of months look like for the for the book release for you?
• 54:58
  Marshall To: Um yeah, so I'll be going to Paris for polycloppies in two weeks.
• 55:03
  Marshall To: And I'll be at the booth, uh the Trafford Book Club booth a few days for signings and and with with Jesse uh what the dates or whatever the dates, but I arrive in Paris November 10th and I'm there till the 17th.
• 55:18
  Marshall To: So and after that, I'm not exactly sure.
• 55:25
  Marshall To: I think that's kind of the end of the road for at least this year for me, other than a few media outlets.
• 55:32
  Marshall To: Yeah, exactly.
• 55:34
  Marshall To: Like I'm I'm very keen to uh to look forward to the next.
• 55:38
  Marshall To: I like I love that I get to experience you know being an artist for a few months out of the year, which is nice.
• 55:48
  Marshall To: So you wish you could do it more.
• 55:51
  Matt Jacob: I mean, is there is there any thought about eventually going full-time artist, full-time photographer?
• 55:58
  Marshall To: Um, I I would like to.
• 56:00
  Marshall To: I don't I'm not I can't I don't really see it at the moment as being uh a reality.
• 56:10
  Marshall To: But I kind of like that because it's that it's that struggle that keeps me humble and it keeps me like it keeps me thirsty for and it it keeps that drive hot, you know?
• 56:27
  Marshall To: And it keeps the fire burning even hotter.
• 56:30
  Marshall To: So there's part of me really just like not being able to do the work anymore, like physically.
• 56:37
  Marshall To: It's it's just very demanding, but uh yeah, it's it's it's something I've been thinking about for a long time.
• 56:45
  Matt Jacob: But yeah, yeah, don't we all it's it's a difficult world to kind of move into full time.
• 56:50
  Matt Jacob: But yeah, I mean it wish you the best of luck.
• 56:54
  Matt Jacob: I mean just just a few more questions before we kind of wrap up.
• 56:58
  Matt Jacob: Uh for the for the tech geeks out there, just just give us an idea of what you shoot on.
• 57:03
  Marshall To: I shoot on a on an array of things.
• 57:07
  Marshall To: At the at the beginning it was a Canon 81.
• 57:10
  Marshall To: With I had a 600mm telephoto lens, an old school Canon.
• 57:18
  Marshall To: It's just like a fixed lens.
• 57:20
  Marshall To: But those continuously broke.
• 57:22
  Marshall To: So it just after a certain extent, I would just buy whatever cameras.
• 57:28
  Marshall To: Any anything, anything that worked, I would just buy and then just use, and then they would break, and then uh and then I would use toy cameras too.
• 57:39
  Marshall To: I like using toy cameras.
• 57:40
  Marshall To: I think they're I think they're fun.
• 57:42
  Marshall To: I I like I'm annoyed of them, of how they're built, and they're really hard to like rewind and things like that, but I I like I like the effects that it gives.
• 57:54
  Marshall To: And then now I shoot on a Canon Elan, which is a battery-operated uh cannon, uh automatic reload, automatic zoo.
• 58:04
  Marshall To: Uh so now I'm kind of just using for, you know, it's like especially for what I shoot, is if you're just shooting for moments, you you gotta be quick.
• 58:14
  Marshall To: So you gotta either use, you know, you guys just use something handy, right?
• 58:19
  Marshall To: Something that feels good in your hand, and you know, you know the buttons.
• 58:24
  Matt Jacob: Um then I'm guessing a lot of this is 35 mil, and then you know, you've you've you use some I guess your head torch and some flash as well in in in some images.
• 58:36
  Marshall To: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 58:37
  Marshall To: There's a lot of head torch, a lot of flashes.
• 58:40
  Marshall To: Yeah, those I find those super fun.
• 58:43
  Marshall To: Like at first, I was you know saying before that I was really scared just walking alone at night.
• 58:48
  Marshall To: And then after a while, I'd start to get, you know, I started to get a little bit carried away.
• 58:54
  Marshall To: I'd walk in the forest with some friends at night with headlamps on and not know if there's a cougar that went across the train tracks and things like that, and all of a sudden you you you start thinking twice again.
• 59:07
  Marshall To: Right?
• 59:09
  Matt Jacob: Push to your limit and then it's kind of like then they come back a a little bit.
• 59:12
  Matt Jacob: Right.
• 59:13
  Matt Jacob: The fear of yeah, it's just the fear of I guess just fear, fear of death, fear of fear of trouble, fear of danger.
• 59:22
  Matt Jacob: It's like songs.
• 59:23
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, go on.
• 59:25
  Marshall To: Oh, I was just I always I always had that like fear of the dark Iron Maiden song in my head while I'm walking through.
• 59:30
  Matt Jacob: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 59:31
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 59:33
  Matt Jacob: Well, this this beautiful work kind of really does that feeling feeling justice.
• 59:38
  Matt Jacob: And I think maybe I've talked about it in kind of more of a morbid sense, but it's like this meditational mortality, right?
• 59:45
  Matt Jacob: And this we haven't really talked about life and death, kind of talked about the the world in between, maybe.
• 59:50
  Matt Jacob: But it's this quite accepting feeling in in the book that you you you illustrate so so well.
• 59:58
  Matt Jacob: Have you uh I mean, d is death something that is is comfortable with you?
• 1:00:06
  Matt Jacob: Have you learned anything about it through kind of I guess your parents and your belief system as well as as making this book?
• 1:00:12
  Matt Jacob: Has it even entered entered the frame?
• 1:00:15
  Marshall To: It it that has always all also been a very uh prevalent theme in my life as well.
• 1:00:20
  Marshall To: There's a couple times that that that I've almost died.
• 1:00:25
  Marshall To: I have a I I have a deathly allergy to nuts.
• 1:00:30
  Matt Jacob: Oh wow, okay.
• 1:00:31
  Marshall To: So I can never come to Southeast Asia.
• 1:00:33
  Matt Jacob: Yeah.
• 1:00:34
  Matt Jacob: Yeah, you'll be dead as soon as you get the plane.
• 1:00:38
  Marshall To: So there's been a couple times where it's I've had the you know really scary moments, just being in the hospital, and then you know, the the one time that really scared me the most was I ate some cashews and I start, you know, I started feeling ill and I I called the ambulance, you know, blah blah blah.
• 1:01:02
  Marshall To: I'm in the ICU, they give me epinephrine, probably about my third shut up of epinephrine, and then everything comes back out, and it starts irritating everything again, and I start going into shock.
• 1:01:15
  Marshall To: And so they intimated me right away, intimated me right away, and then I was you know very close to passing out, and they shot me with another epinephrine, and then they drilled a hole into my shin.
• 1:01:31
  Marshall To: With a with they drilled a tiny hole into your shin, and you could smell your you know your skin burning.
• 1:01:40
  Matt Jacob: Oh god.
• 1:01:42
  Marshall To: And they they jabbed another epinephrine right into my shin.
• 1:01:46
  Marshall To: Um for it's because it goes like it goes faster straight into the bloodstream.
• 1:01:52
  Marshall To: Yeah.
• 1:01:53
  Marshall To: And then and then I I just remember closing my eyes, like all of a sudden there's six people around me, and then I'm I'm like closing my eyes, and then and then I wake up two days later.
• 1:02:04
  Marshall To: Or maybe sorry, a day and a half later.
• 1:02:07
  Matt Jacob: Did you have any weird dreams or kind of brain activity during those two days?
• 1:02:12
  Marshall To: No, I this that's the thing in my life.
• 1:02:17
  Matt Jacob: So death is great.
• 1:02:20
  Marshall To: Well, well, it's like I'm not I'm not afraid of death necessarily.
• 1:02:24
  Marshall To: I'm definitely afraid of dying and afraid of what ever like people closest to me feel if I'm if I'm gone.
• 1:02:32
  Marshall To: You know, I definitely want to be around to help out, but I'm not necessarily afraid of death because it's again it's it's it's not it's one of those things where it's we're all gonna do it.
• 1:02:44
  Marshall To: You know, I don't feel unique in that way.
• 1:02:48
  Matt Jacob: What a lovely, happy way to end the podcast.
• 1:02:52
  Matt Jacob: As as we talk about death, the episode dies.
• 1:02:56
  Matt Jacob: Marshall, thank, thank you so much for your humility and your your grace.
• 1:03:01
  Matt Jacob: And I absolutely love this book.
• 1:03:03
  Matt Jacob: I can't, like I said to you, I I I get my books delivered to the to the UK.
• 1:03:07
  Matt Jacob: So when I get back there in the new year, I'm gonna get my hands on this and really enjoy it as it should be enjoyed.
• 1:03:13
  Matt Jacob: So I wish you the very, very best of luck.
• 1:03:15
  Matt Jacob: I'm really happy for you.
• 1:03:16
  Matt Jacob: Congratulations, and yeah, look forward to seeing what happens from this and seeing more of you out there in the art world.
• 1:03:24
  Marshall To: Thank you so much, man.
• 1:03:25
  Marshall To: Thanks, thanks for reaching out.
• 1:03:26
  Marshall To: I had a great time.
• 1:03:28
  Marshall To: I hope uh yeah, I hope I didn't scare anyone too much.
• 1:03:31
  Marshall To: Not at all.