Latest / 4-Freedom Podcast / 187. The Future of Fundamentalism - Eric Capaci

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187. The Future of Fundamentalism - Eric Capaci · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:02
Welcome back to the Four Freedom Podcast.
0:04
It is great to be back with you. Episode 180 something 187, maybe
0:10
I don't know 186. It's been great.
0:12
I don't keep up with numbers like that until I edit them.
0:15
It has been great to be with you.
0:17
Just got back from a conference there in Tennessee and got to
0:22
make some great connections and get to meet some great people
0:26
and excited about what we have going on with a new endeavor.
0:30
We've got a new product launch we're going to be talking about
0:33
today in just a little bit. Brett, you are knee, knee deep,
0:39
neck deep. Whichever 1 you want to say in
0:41
Crusade planning. How are you doing, my friend?
0:45
Man, things are going good. Like you said, we've been having
0:48
the plan, this crusade, and it's been a good work.
0:51
We're excited about it. We hope people come.
0:54
We we've advertised from every conceivable angle, Facebook and
1:00
yard signs we have. I've got a radio interview lined
1:05
up on Friday. I'm going to be on Kicks 96
1:10
Country talking about The Crusade and a couple other radio
1:14
stations are going to run that on and we've just done
1:18
everything we can do to prepare for this.
1:20
I've been talking to some bands this morning.
1:24
We had our venue picked out and been picked out for over a year.
1:28
And then the day we go in to clean it, they stop us and say,
1:33
hey, we need to get in there and replace some stuff and do some
1:37
painting and sanding. And we're kind of like, you
1:40
know, you've known that we were coming in here for a year.
1:43
Why do you wait till we're ready to get in here?
1:46
I mean, I've got a guy, I've got a my technician ready to get in
1:50
there and run wires and install TV's, get ready for this thing.
1:54
And we had to tap the brakes on it.
1:56
So, but hopefully we get in there pretty soon.
1:59
We've been talking to bands and stuff.
2:01
And then man, on top of that, just church life, just being a
2:06
pastor past two days, I put 350 miles on my truck, just ministry
2:12
miles. And so it's a lot of stuff going
2:15
on. Got school on top of that
2:17
because I'm working on my masters.
2:19
So it's a busy season. But like my, like I always say,
2:23
I'd rather do this than sit at the house.
2:25
I definitely rather do this then go back to the oil change shop
2:29
where I was before. And so I am just happy where God
2:32
has put me. I'm glad I'm busy, I'm glad I'm
2:35
serving and I wouldn't rather be doing anything else.
2:39
And but I'll tell you James, the most important thing in my life
2:44
right now at this moment is Co hosting the Four Freedom podcast
2:49
with you. I'm so glad to be here and I've
2:51
been looking forward to this all week.
2:52
Yes, Sir. Love it.
2:54
Hey, big question, Big, big question.
2:58
When they announce you on the radio, is it going to be Doctor
3:01
Brett Martin since you have your honorary doctorate?
3:04
Hey, I do have it. I could bring it up there and
3:06
show them. You should.
3:07
I think. I think it'd be a big talking
3:09
point. And I think they need to make
3:11
sure that everyone in the world knows that Doctor Brett Martin
3:15
getting his master's degree is there.
3:17
It's going to be a great time. Yeah, we are excited as well.
3:20
We've been level medal to the pedal to the floor as well.
3:25
Lord's been blessing. We had a young person reach out
3:29
to me, Brett, just yesterday and they said, Hey, I want to get
3:32
baptized. And so I'm meeting with him
3:34
Sunday about salvation, talking through that.
3:37
So excited about that. We have an unexpected death in
3:42
the church last week, which has been putting everything into a
3:45
tailspin. But things are good.
3:47
God's been faithful. The whole family was there and
3:50
it's just been a blessing to, to minister to them.
3:54
But Brett, we've got some exciting things coming up.
3:56
I, I've been excited about this and, and I'll sort of launch
3:59
this new product that we're talking about and then let you
4:01
talk about a couple other things.
4:03
But we are excited about announcing a brand new product
4:08
with our full Freedom cigar line.
4:10
We are doing the four cigars and we've partnered with a soap
4:15
company in Tennessee and we've partnered with a mission
4:19
organization in Nicaragua. And we're going to do a soap
4:22
bundle with coffee and cigars. Coffee, cigar, soap bundle all
4:29
together. It's going to be each one of our
4:32
cigars. It's going to be a bar of soap
4:34
and it's going to be a bag of coffee.
4:36
And part of this partnership is going to be actually going to
4:39
help plant churches in Nicaragua and support churches that are
4:43
already in existence in Nicaragua as well.
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And so part of the proceeds of this is going to go to help
4:48
them. And what we're doing is we're
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going to do the four cigars, bar soap and a bag of coffee for
4:54
$65. And that's going to be an
4:57
awesome opportunity for you to support our ministry.
5:00
Also be able to bless these two other organizations.
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One, this this brand new soap company that's that's up and
5:06
coming. And then also our coffee
5:09
company, which is going to be part of planting churches there.
5:14
And we're throwing in for the first five people.
5:17
The first five people that go on and place this order on the
5:20
website once it's live will also receive a copy of me and John's
5:25
new book Freedom and that'll be for free on there.
5:30
And so this just a complimentary copy for you for the first five.
5:34
So as soon as that's live here in the next couple of days, go
5:37
on there, make that purchase, make that order and you'll be
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able to receive the the bundle of what we've got.
5:44
This be a great birthday present, great Christmas present
5:47
and also be able to support the ministry and what we're doing.
5:50
I'll tell you that I remember last year, it was last
5:55
basketball season. So it might have been Oh well
5:58
over a year ago, I was sitting in a basketball game for my boys
6:02
and this idea popped in my head. And it's like, what if we did
6:06
this had a box and put this in it.
6:08
And then I told you and you're like, man, that's good.
6:11
What if, what if we put this in it and did this in it?
6:15
And it was kind of a a collaboration for these boxes
6:18
we've been working on for a long time.
6:21
I tell you, we've been trying to soap.
6:23
It's great soap, man. It it, it, it, it was hard to
6:26
pick the sense that, you know, go in these boxes.
6:31
I'm on my last bar right now that I've been so I've been
6:36
using it for a long time now. Listen, we're in this bundle.
6:40
We've got cigars, we've got the soap and we've got the coffee.
6:45
Now, we're not telling you to use all three at the same time,
6:50
but we're also not going to stop you from doing that.
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That's right. That's exactly right.
6:55
And it'd be a great thing for you.
6:57
We do also not promise that if you use this soap that you'll be
7:00
more masculine. But legend says that by using
7:05
this soap, you will be more masculine and your wife, if
7:09
you're married, will find you more attractive.
7:11
And it'll be a great, great success for your marriage if you
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do that. That is, that is the common lure
7:18
right now. That is, we've got two different
7:22
right now. Two different, different the,
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the smells of the soap. We're using bourbon and we're
7:27
using wild cherry I believe is the 2 that we've got.
7:30
And so it'll just be a rotation of those as it goes if you order
7:33
those. And we're excited about that.
7:36
We're excited about partnering with this new company in
7:39
Tennessee. She her name is Angela and she's
7:41
been making soap for a while. This is the old school way, man,
7:45
out of a beef tallow and all the weird ways that make soap.
7:50
But man, it's been great for my skin.
7:52
I've enjoyed using it. The Brett, I'm a coffee
7:55
connoisseur. You, you can't see this because
7:59
you guys are just listening to us.
8:01
But behind me, I have an espresso machine, I've got a
8:04
Keurig. I've ground my own beans and I
8:08
have been thoroughly enjoying this coffee that I've been using
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this the best coffee that I've ever had.
8:13
And so it's ground right there in Nicaragua, right there in the
8:16
Unotega and which is where our Kirk plants are are going to be
8:20
at. And so you're not going to get a
8:22
better cup of coffee from anywhere else other than this
8:26
coffee that we get fresh, freshly made, freshly ground for
8:30
you. And so we're excited about that.
8:33
Oh, yeah, we're going. We're going back.
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Our church is going back to Nicaragua next July.
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And it is. And, and you'd think, you know,
8:41
July in Central America is going to be hot, but actually it's one
8:44
of the coolest times of the year.
8:47
But I've got special instructions to bring back the
8:52
coffee. And so we're definitely going to
8:54
bring back some coffee. It's it's really great coffee.
8:56
You're, you're going to, you're going to want this box.
9:00
You know, I mean, just, you know, when it's delivered in the
9:03
mailbox, you open it up, you hear the eagle screeching and
9:06
you know, you open it just screams America.
9:09
It's the four freedom package bundle.
9:13
And you're going to be happy with it, I promise you.
9:15
Absolutely. Brett Wells we got going on.
9:18
Let's see what we've got going on.
9:20
We've got our Israel trip going on.
9:22
We are going to Israel. You know, there's a lot of stuff
9:26
in the news, but it's perfectly safe right now to be in Israel.
9:30
There are tours on the ground and we want to let you know if
9:33
you want to come with us, just let us know drop us a line.
9:37
We've got our website up and we are taking I think it's a it's
9:44
last week of January, 1st week of February of 2026 and we're
9:50
we're going back to Israel and we've got a few spots open.
9:54
And if you want to go now is the time that's going to come time
9:57
here pretty soon when our trip will be closed.
10:00
But if you ever thought about going, I'm telling you it's
10:05
going to be worth it. It'll change the way you read
10:07
your Bible. It'll change the way you pray.
10:10
It'll just change everything about your spiritual life to be
10:13
there and, and to see these things and to know that
10:18
archaeology backs up the Bible and and gives it more legitimacy
10:23
than any other, you know, spiritual book that claims to be
10:28
spiritual in the world, to see these places, they're real, they
10:31
exist. Archaeology backs up the Bible
10:34
100% to walk on literal streets that you know for a fact that
10:40
Jesus walked on to see the tiles in the synagogues where Jesus,
10:44
you know, Jesus stood. You know, there's, there's a
10:47
synagogue in in Magdala that's almost completely intact.
10:51
And you know, Jesus preached in that in that synagogue.
10:55
He had to of and so just to see those places to be on the Sea of
11:00
Galilee, it's just an amazing thing.
11:02
I would just please come to Israel if, if, if you have any
11:07
desire to, I guarantee you, you're going to love it.
11:10
But you, you've got something coming up here pretty soon,
11:12
don't you? Too, right?
11:14
Yeah, we've got this conference. I just left from there in
11:18
Tennessee and excited about that and being there with John get to
11:23
set up with chance there and sell some cigars and have a good
11:26
time selling the book, putting out some different little Knick
11:29
knacks. We've had some people making
11:31
some things for us for the for the podcast, just some random
11:35
things that you'll never find online, some coasters and cup
11:39
holders and things like that. So yeah, we are excited about
11:42
that. Is there something else I've got
11:43
going on, Brett? I don't think so.
11:46
I think that's it. Yeah, baby, you know my work.
11:51
Together. Yeah, it all runs together.
11:54
Hey. Yeah, January 30th through
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February 7th. I believe those dates for Israel
12:00
come with us. It's going to be a wonderful,
12:02
wonderful time. Anything else, Brett, we got
12:05
going on that I can think of? I think that pretty much covers
12:08
all of our introductory stuff. I think we've are just excited
12:12
about this series that we're in, man.
12:14
We've got some, we've got some interviews already in the
12:17
chamber. We haven't pulled the trigger on
12:18
it yet. I, I'm chomping at the bit.
12:20
I can't wait. And so we're going to announce
12:23
that soon. So stay.
12:25
Tuned one one last thing you said that reminded me of this.
12:29
We we say it often if there's ever a time where you want to
12:33
come on, want to Share your story.
12:34
Maybe we've talked about a college or a ministry or a
12:38
person that was influenced with you and you want to come and
12:41
just Share your story. I appreciate Steve last week and
12:44
Jason coming on and sharing their story.
12:47
We dropped the next year interview for you last week.
12:50
We'd love for you to come on. We're going to be talking about
12:52
some individuals over these next 5 to 10 weeks of that are
12:57
currently in ministry now. And if you want to Share your
13:01
story, share your time with them or them, we want you to have
13:06
that opportunity. This is not just me and Brett on
13:09
here talking. This is a time where you can
13:11
share, you can experience, you can tell your experience, and
13:15
you can help others. One of the things that that
13:17
allows us in our healing journey is helping other people.
13:21
When we begin to help others, it helps them grow, but it also
13:25
helps us in that same journey. And so we want to always give
13:29
that opportunity for you to come on, reach out to me, reach out
13:32
to Brett, and we'll try to get you scheduled for a time to talk
13:36
about where you're at. So I think without that further
13:39
ado, let's jump into today's episode.
13:42
For freedom, you set me free. Not for change, not for guilt,
13:46
not for Pharisee. Bracelet the flame, Now I'm
13:49
puffing peace cigars and victory Justified released.
13:54
Welcome to the For Freedom podcast.
13:57
This podcast exists to bring the freedom of the gospel for
14:01
everyday Christians with everyday issues.
14:03
I ain't. Saved by dress codes, not by
14:05
what I eat. I'm covered in the
14:07
righteousness, washed from head to feet.
14:09
No tally of tradition. No man made code.
14:12
Blood bought my freedom. Now I ride that road.
14:14
They clutch pearls when they see smoke rings rise.
14:17
But my prey still ascends past the legalist cries.
14:20
Christ plus nothing. That's the real math.
14:23
So miss me with your fence laws and your extra path.
14:26
He sat with sinners. I'm sitting with Saints, sipping
14:29
grace from the bottle. No room for face.
14:31
I like one for liberty. Toast to the king.
14:34
Every ash of sermon. Death has lost its sting.
14:37
For freedom He set me free, Not for change, not for guilt, not
14:41
for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame, now puffing
14:44
peace, cigars and victory justified, released.
14:48
For freedom, He set me free, not for change, not for guilt, not
14:51
for Pharisee. Grace lit the flame now puffing
14:55
peace, cigars and victory justified released.
14:58
Let Grace begin now. Here are.
15:07
Your hosts James Seyfried and Brett Martin.
15:10
Over the last couple of months, we, and really for the last
15:14
season and a half, really, we've been talking about the
15:17
footprints from the past from J Frank Norris, John Rice, Jack
15:22
Howes, Lester Oloff, Lee Robertson, all the way up to the
15:25
final four that we just released with Ruckman Roloff, Carl Malone
15:30
and Tom Hatch. And we, we talked through all
15:33
those. We covered the men, we covered
15:35
the movements that they're part of.
15:37
We, we talked about the tracks that they left and, and how they
15:41
forged their own journeys. We were able to interview
15:45
several people, JC, Steven, Jason, several others that
15:49
shared their story, shared their journey under some of these men
15:53
and what that looked like. Again, I don't know if you
15:56
remember, we had a great conversation with James Spurgeon
15:59
a couple of months ago and from our interview and from our time
16:03
talking about the Baptist Longview Temple there, he's now
16:07
starting his own podcast doing a great job with that.
16:10
I don't know if you've listened to it, Brett, but the The Texas
16:13
Baptist Crucible podcast, what a great job he's doing over there.
16:18
Just someone sharing their journey and then feeling led to
16:21
continue on and share more stories.
16:24
We love seeing that. We love seeing what's going on
16:26
there. And so Brett, where are we going
16:30
today? What's going on?
16:31
Well. You know, we're, you know, as
16:34
we're wrapped up in all what you were saying, all that we've
16:37
done, we're wrapped up. We're interviewing these people,
16:40
we're talking about these these footprints from the past.
16:43
One question just kept coming up that we talked about and that
16:47
was what's next? Because fundamentalism isn't
16:51
just history. It I mean, it's still here
16:54
today. There are leaders today that are
16:57
shaping what it's going to look like in the years to come.
17:01
And and so this is something that me and you have have
17:05
thought for. Yeah.
17:07
And I think what we've decided to entitle this, if you have
17:10
looked at the header of the, the episode is called The Future of
17:14
Fundamentalism. And how this begins to take what
17:18
we've learned in the past, but begin to focus and shift our
17:21
thoughts on men who are leading right now, who are alive, who
17:24
are in the journey, who are doing things, who are producing
17:27
content right now. Men with colleges, men with
17:31
churches, men with training programs.
17:34
These are the men we're going to look at.
17:36
We're going to look at Paul Chapel and West Coast Baptist
17:38
College. We're going to look at Charlie
17:40
Clark and Vision Baptist College up in New Jersey.
17:44
We're going to look at Jeff Fugate and Commonwealth.
17:46
We're going to look at Jack Treiber and Golden State and
17:50
look at these four men specifically.
17:52
But today, Brett, who are we going to talk about today?
17:55
We are going to kick this off with someone that's taken a
17:58
unique path and that is Eric Capaci and champion Christian
18:04
College in Hot Springs, AR. And I'll tell you James, the
18:08
first time I ever laid eyes on Eric Capaci was at how's
18:12
Anderson College. He got up to pre he he was I was
18:16
at attending college and he was preaching Chapel.
18:19
He got up to preach Chapel and he just an animated guy.
18:25
He'll tell a story and just suck you in.
18:28
He told a story about how he was going into the high rises in
18:32
South Chicago and he had took it take his tie off.
18:36
His Bible was in his pocket. Some guys came around and
18:40
started pushing him and start trying to jump him and, and and
18:44
so he pretended he knew karate and made the and made the made
18:48
the karate noises and stances and and they backed up from him
18:52
and it was hilarious and his tie was falling out of his pocket
18:57
and they said, man, you should have put that tie.
18:59
On and wore that Bible we. Didn't know you was from the
19:00
church. We'd left you alone.
19:02
And so that was kind of my first, my first inkling of, of,
19:07
of capaci. And then later on, I, I dated
19:11
somebody from the head, you know, was friends with someone
19:14
from his church. And so I was, you know, visited
19:17
Hot Springs a couple times to, to see her and we went to church
19:22
there a little bit. And so, and plus I have the
19:26
people that I grew up with. I all of my, a lot of my younger
19:31
friends from church, they all went to champion.
19:33
And so I've got several friends that in fact me, me and you have
19:37
several acquaintances through champion.
19:41
And so I've got a lot of connections to champion.
19:44
Yeah. But you know, Brett, as we begin
19:47
thinking through Eric and his ministry, of course, he was
19:50
raised Roman Catholic as an altar boy, saved at 12 years
19:55
old, thirteen years old, and we're going to give a little bit
19:59
more of that later. But as he left House Anderson,
20:03
he had this desire, this overwhelming desire to plant a
20:06
church. And so he moved his family back
20:09
to Hot Springs, AR, planted the church in 1992, which was Gospel
20:14
White Baptist Church there and he began as their lead pastor
20:19
ever since. He planted it with his brother
20:21
Brett and they lived in a single wide trailer, a little 3 bedroom
20:25
trailer. The two families lived together
20:28
for many years just making ends meet, and the church became the
20:32
parent ministry behind where I went to college at, which is
20:36
Champion Baptist College College, now Champion Christian
20:38
College. That's right.
20:42
Kate Capaci's background is, is, is useful to think about because
20:46
he, he, he trained in the IFB world.
20:50
His bio list degrees from House Anderson College, other
20:54
evangelical training, and man, when you got House Anderson on
20:57
there you don't need anything else man.
21:00
That's the. That's the.
21:01
Creme de la Creme right there and he.
21:05
I think he's got his honorary doctorate from Hiles and from
21:08
from another college as well, but I know he's he's got 2
21:12
honorary doctorates. Oh man.
21:14
When he was ordained in 1990, he spent decades as a church
21:18
planner, pastor and eventually college founder and president.
21:22
And you know, he, he's, he's, he's often described as very
21:25
entrepreneurial. And you, you, you, you get that
21:30
sense from him when you talk to him and you listen to him talk.
21:34
He knows how to turn something around.
21:36
He's got a good head on his shoulder.
21:38
He's got a good sense about that.
21:40
He's a builder. He thinks in terms of
21:42
institutions and programs and advance.
21:47
One thing I think about Eric, I think the guy knows how to cast
21:50
vision. He he can cast vision better
21:53
than anybody else that I know. And that's the frame that when
21:57
we analyze him, pastor, industrial entrepreneur, we want
22:02
to put those together. Fans point to growth and
22:06
outreach, while critics point to style and personality driven
22:11
leadership. And so some other things that we
22:15
want to explore as we go through this.
22:17
Yeah, I can definitely agree with all that, Brett.
22:20
As under Eric, one of the things that I often would say as I was
22:24
a champion was he cast a vision so big and so grand that in
22:31
order for it to be accomplished, the only way for it to happen
22:34
was to be for God to have for God to intercede in the work in
22:37
that situation. And you know, growing up in a
22:41
smaller church running, you know, 200 a hundred, 5200
22:44
people, I did not get to ever see a grand big vision like
22:48
that. So going champion expanded my
22:50
horizons, got to spend time with Eric while I was there with him.
22:55
And of course, my wife was reached through their bus
22:58
ministry and and went to the Christian School, went to the
23:01
college, served underneath all the bus ministry.
23:05
And so, you know, being in that environment molded how I looked
23:10
at ministry, how I did ministry. One of the the caveats that I'll
23:14
say is the education that I got from Champion was probably not
23:19
the best education ever. Very, very shallow when they're
23:23
teaching very shallow in their doctrine.
23:26
They only ever taught one side of the story.
23:28
They never allowed for debate. They never allowed for growth in
23:32
that context. But the ministry hands on
23:36
training the the physical ministry, laboring in the
23:41
college, helping in the ministries, seeing that
23:46
ministry's messy, seeing the time that it cost him ministry
23:50
the that if you're going to truly make any a difference,
23:53
you've got to love people and care for people.
23:56
The love that Eric had for people was one of the most
24:00
amazing things that I took out of ministry while we were there.
24:03
That has stuck with me for my entire time.
24:06
You mentioned, Brett, the the, the storytelling that Eric had
24:11
and and still has this day, the the way I tell stories and the
24:14
way I preach is modeled after his style of preaching because
24:19
it was just so ingrained in me for so many years, listening and
24:24
hearing and and having that audience drawn into the story
24:28
was, was just, I mean, I can, I can still to my mind right now,
24:32
go to those stories and go to those events that that he would
24:36
he had told because I remember them.
24:39
And so it was what such a great, great time.
24:42
One thing I want to mention as we continue looking forward sort
24:45
of the the college side of it, the origin story of the history.
24:49
The college was founded in O 5 and it was out of the gospel
24:53
light as a ministry and an extension of the ministry.
24:57
We mentioned. It was originally champion
24:59
Baptist Institute was an institute 1st and then a couple
25:03
years later it became champion Baptist College.
25:06
And then as the the college grew, they rebranded and became
25:11
Champion Christian College. Believe that was in 2010.
25:15
No, no, not 2010. I believe that was in 2015 when
25:20
they changed their name to Champion Christian College.
25:23
It's a small ministry focused school.
25:26
They offer associate's degrees, bachelor's degrees, and a couple
25:31
of master level degrees as well. They've just recently expanded
25:35
into their online presence as well.
25:38
Brett, what you say or sort of sort of their institutional side
25:41
of it, What does it look like? Well, two institutional items to
25:46
stress. So number one, we want to let
25:49
you know that Champion did pursue and achieve national
25:52
credit accreditation through tracks.
25:55
This is a milestone that they celebrate, they're proud of, and
25:58
they should be. And #2 the college marked itself
26:03
as both doctrinally conservative and academically credible, which
26:08
is fed it a bit apart from many IFP schools that historically
26:14
avoided outside accreditors, TRACKS granted full
26:18
accreditation at a TRACKS meeting on November 5th.
26:22
So this is an accredited institution and that's something
26:26
that we, we, we need to stress and make known.
26:30
Yeah, one thing I'll make known from the inside is you may know
26:34
the name Judson Mitchell. He was at house Anderson for
26:37
many years. Do you remember that name?
26:39
Do you know that name? Doctor Mitchell?
26:41
Okay, he made after you. He went and worked at
26:43
Commonwealth and helped start another Bible college as well.
26:46
But he and others often told us when we get accredited because
26:50
they were going through the tracks and, and, and
26:52
accreditation while we were there.
26:54
When we get accredited, all your degrees, they're going to be
26:56
grandfathered in and you're going to get this accredited
26:59
degree as well. That was all a lie.
27:03
My degree is still just a piece of paper sitting right behind
27:05
me. You can see it right there in
27:06
the middle of my bookshelf. It's not accredited.
27:10
The the way for my degree to actually be accredited through
27:13
tracks is I would actually have to take a couple more classes
27:16
and then re graduate with a bachelor's degree in order for
27:20
my degree to be accredited. And so that was often they would
27:24
say, oh, well, you're, you're, you're paying for it now, but
27:27
eventually it'll be accredited. It does not, did not, but they
27:33
did have a dual aim that were theologically conservative and
27:37
now they're academically accredited.
27:39
It's important signpost for our series because it shows the
27:42
model for how this IFB church that was rooted in this
27:46
institution, it's no longer an IFB church.
27:48
They're an SPC church now. They try to stay faithful to
27:52
their convictions while stepping into a broader academic
27:55
accountability. And I think that's good for us.
27:57
I think it's good for these colleges to take that step
28:00
forward and say, hey, we are going to provide a quality
28:04
education that's Christian, that's biblical, but also go
28:08
through the proper channels. Now, you mentioned something
28:11
that we need to bring to everybody's attention, and that
28:14
is that they did pivot into being a Southern Baptist, which
28:21
that actually pivots how we categorize capacity.
28:25
In the late 2010, the church voted to join the Southern
28:28
Baptist Convention, and that boat was publicly celebrated on
28:32
social feeds and noted by other SBC leaders.
28:36
That's not a, and it wasn't like a cosmetic change.
28:39
You know, joining the SPC signals a formal cooperative
28:43
posture with a denominational network that most of the
28:48
churches historically avoided. This was a, this was a big
28:51
shift. This was a direction change.
28:56
And and it changes how we're going to categorize Eric Capaci
29:00
as compared to these other, you know, leaders and fundamentalism
29:04
that that we're going to go over.
29:07
He he took a stand, he went in a different direction, he stepped
29:10
out at the IFB. And we definitely want to let
29:13
people know that. Yeah, I've got a it was, it's
29:18
not a diploma, but it was a message that Eric Preet shows.
29:20
He's my first or second year of college.
29:23
He would always do the first Chapel message and he would
29:25
layout the foundation. One year he did a breakfast of
29:29
champions Wheaties and he put like champion on there and he he
29:34
gave everybody a box of cereal. By the time I graduated, there
29:37
were guys that had boxes of Wheaties cereal that they had
29:40
gotten that first year. They never opened and they never
29:43
ate that like maggots were growing out of and it was
29:45
disgusting. But but one year he preached the
29:48
message on what we believe and the, the biblical foundation of
29:53
champion and it was 8 or 10 points and it was like a
29:57
diploma. It looked almost like a diploma.
29:59
And he said, this is what we believe, this is what we stand
30:02
for. He said, I don't care if if
30:04
champion goes liberal one day, I don't care if if these things
30:07
happen. But if we ever, if we ever go
30:10
against these things. And one of them was like, we're
30:12
going to always use the King James Bible.
30:14
You can send this back. You can send these things back.
30:17
We're going to stand true on the on the word of God.
30:20
And he said those things and that was great.
30:21
But but now, OK, they're not there anymore.
30:24
They're not King James only, they're SBC.
30:27
And so you, you see this progression of where he was at.
30:31
You see this progression of where champion was once at,
30:34
where they were just spouting certain things, but now they
30:38
have hopefully by the grace of God and I've, I've had multiple
30:41
conversations with Eric. We sat down briefly after
30:46
recently after they had joined the SBCI was already an SBC
30:50
pastor. And then my wife went out there.
30:51
We had someone watch our kids and me and miss Carolyn and Eric
30:55
and my wife. We all went and we sat down and
30:58
we had lunch one day and I just said, Hey, tell me, tell me
31:01
where you're at. My, my wife grew up in your
31:03
church and she's, she was told since she was a baby that the
31:07
King James is the only way. And now her pastor is using the
31:10
ESV or using something else. How do you justify that this,
31:15
this is just questions that she's got and this was during
31:18
our questioning stage. And so we've had those
31:20
conversations with him in private.
31:23
And I think the the move maps sort of the theological and the
31:28
practical shift they were. They're more concerned with
31:31
cooperation and broadening the evangelistic structure that they
31:36
have. You'll, you'll hear Eric's
31:38
testimony of wanting to help encourage smaller struggling
31:42
churches, revitalize them. He's willing to partner with SBC
31:47
missions and the work of what it is and less likely of the
31:51
separatist posture that he had in the beginning of the IFB
31:57
practices. By one measure, this is a
32:01
healthy theological shift for them, and for some observers
32:04
this is a move away from isolationist and beginning to
32:09
cooperate in a broader scope. Absolutely.
32:14
Now, one of the things we promised is we promised to cover
32:17
controversies. And you know, I looked for
32:20
scandals or legal cases tied to CAPACI or Champion.
32:24
And look, we found no major public criminal or civil
32:28
scandals out there, no verifiable arrest records, major
32:33
lawsuits, none of that surfaced. We did find instead two types of
32:39
critical reactions you should know about and that is first a
32:43
cultural and stylistic critiques inside the ISB online forums.
32:48
Of course, you know, we can, we can expect that and reputational
32:52
incidents that are more embarrassing than criminal.
32:56
And you know, we'll, we'll, we'll lay that out.
32:59
And if you want us to dig deeper in the court records or stuff
33:02
like that, we can do that. But, you know, for now, this is
33:07
all we're able to kind of dig up.
33:09
Yeah. And so being on the inside, I
33:11
know there's some some allegations.
33:14
I know there's some things that happened at Champion.
33:17
Those aren't my stories to tell. There are people out there that
33:21
have a story and have a voice they want to share.
33:25
I won't challenge you. Reach out to us.
33:27
And this is at any college that any organization out there.
33:30
If you've been hurt and you want to share a story, let us know.
33:34
There are our podcasts. Eric scores in skit, the
33:36
Preacher Voice podcast. That's what he he lives for.
33:40
That's his his whole motive of the podcast is expressing and,
33:43
and sharing the criminal actions of the IFB.
33:47
And so we want to give some of those things and we want to
33:50
share some of the controversies and sort of criticisms.
33:53
The first one is the IFB critiques of the theological
33:57
shift that Brett mentioned some of the old school IFB forums,
34:01
the Fighting Fundamentalist and and posters in that express
34:05
frustration and even disappointment, right.
34:09
Eric and Gospel White, they were the flagship.
34:12
I mean, Eric, he had the fastest growing college.
34:15
He had the largest first year attendance of any independent
34:19
fundamental Baptist college that's ever been recorded.
34:21
That first year that they will became a college that they were
34:24
growing, they were impacting their community, they were doing
34:28
things. That was the flagship model.
34:30
Eric, he, he spoke 50 weeks out of the year at camps and
34:34
crusades. Anyone who wanted to be in that
34:38
IFB world, they flocked to be around Eric.
34:41
And now that he started to college, it's like, hey, I want
34:43
to be around that. I want to be part of his sphere
34:46
of influence. And So what happened was if
34:49
gospel light began to align with the SPC and within some of the
34:53
IFB circles, they saw this as betrayal.
34:56
They saw this as this man used his platform and now he is
35:03
betraying us. He's stabbing us in the back.
35:06
We've got to be separatist. We've got the individual
35:09
churches and these conversations are loud.
35:13
They're they're, you can find them all over different places
35:17
in different niche forums. As I mentioned, the fighting
35:20
fundamentalists in various other places and people begin to track
35:24
this denominational move. And the pushback was primarily
35:29
the theological cultural. There was no legal pushback.
35:34
Right. And then we we also talked about
35:37
reputational hits. Apparently champions basketball
35:41
program suffered A widely publicized humiliating loss to
35:45
Southern University. The James's score was 116 to 12.
35:50
This game was in 2013 made the national sports pages.
35:55
You know, it's not a theological controversy, but out the only
35:58
the reason why we bring it up is because it has been used by
36:01
critics to taunt or is a sign that smaller ministry colleges
36:07
sometimes overreach into competitive arenas and they're
36:11
unprepared for it. And that's, you know, it's been
36:15
widely circulated. It's part of the the school's
36:18
history. And that's kind of the only
36:20
reason why we kind of bring it up.
36:23
Yeah. I think, and I remember watching
36:25
part of this game, Brett, I think they went like almost 100
36:30
points before a champion ever scored a point, ever scored a
36:33
basket. It it was such a bad game.
36:37
And then finally they put like their C team in and then
36:40
champion scores like 12 points. It was it was so bad.
36:43
It was so horrendous. It was so funny as well.
36:47
I mean, you're watching these guys.
36:48
I mean, it looks like high schoolers play in like my son's
36:53
fifth grade team like this is I mean, it was it was just
36:56
humiliating baking together. Though the the factual
37:01
controversies are more are mostly reputable and the
37:05
theological rather than the criminal.
37:08
The biggest controversy in the broad sense is the shift of
37:11
affiliation and and posture. They provides heat along the
37:16
online presence of the IFB purest.
37:21
And So what we're trying to get to the point of, of really
37:24
saying that this is, as we go through different things,
37:27
there's going to be some pros and cons.
37:29
And I've shared some of those pros and cons.
37:32
I've shared some of the, the legal side of it.
37:34
Again, there's nothing, there's no criminal record, there's no
37:37
court proceeding. There's no, there's nothing like
37:41
that's been happening. And so up until this point.
37:44
And so if something like that were to happen, of course we
37:47
would cover it. But but what I want to share is
37:51
from, for me personally, you know, we, I love champion, I
37:55
love Eric. Eric will always be one of my
37:56
heroes. I wouldn't be where I'm at today
37:59
without Champion and without Eric.
38:02
I would not have the wife that I had if he didn't plant this
38:05
church in Hot Springs, AR. Her family would not be changed
38:08
the way it was changed and so I'm thankful for that.
38:10
I'm thankful by MyHeritage. If I could go back and change
38:13
some things, of course I would. But I'm thankful that we were
38:18
able to be under that ministry at that specific time.
38:22
Exactly. And we we want to kind of now
38:26
shift and ask the question, what does Capaci tell us about
38:30
fundamentalism's future? And you know, as we thought
38:34
through this, he gives us a couple of signals.
38:37
The first one is institutional entrepreneurship.
38:41
You know, leaders out there who can build churches in the multi
38:45
campus ministries and then found colleges.
38:48
They're they're shaping the supply chain for future pastors
38:53
and missionaries. And, and what Erica Pacey's
38:56
model does is it demonstrates how to do that.
39:00
And you know, that's one thing that you know, we've got, we've
39:04
got churches pay, got pastors retiring.
39:07
We don't have enough pastors to replace them.
39:12
And it's some this is something that we have to think about, you
39:16
know, and Eric's got a way to do that.
39:18
He's got the way to funnel leaders into these positions.
39:22
And so we need to step back and and take a look at that.
39:25
And so the second one is willingness to compromise the go
39:29
ahead. Real quick, one of the things
39:32
that Doctor Mitchell often would say in our classes was if Eric
39:37
Capaci and Brett Capaci were not believers and we're in the real
39:41
world, they would be leaders of the top 100 in the top 100
39:46
companies of the world because of their entrepreneur spirit and
39:50
also because of their energy and level of leadership.
39:54
And I think that says a lot because when you are leading at
39:57
that high quality, you're able to take something and build it
40:01
in a way with this, the God-given abilities that you've
40:04
been given to be able to do that entrepreneur spirit.
40:07
And that's why church planting was.
40:10
So integral for him because it was just his DNA of who he was.
40:14
Exactly. Second, willingness to
40:17
compromise separatism for cooperation capacities move
40:21
toward the SBC suggests some leaders matured out of isolation
40:25
IFP habits and see denominational partnership as a
40:29
better vehicle for mission and sustainability.
40:32
That's a theological and practical recalibration.
40:36
And I, you know, I, I, I agree with this.
40:39
One of the things that this come up on the RFP network the other
40:45
day, I vented in there about something that, you know, had to
40:51
do with a committee that I was on.
40:53
And there was, there was A, and for the most part, everybody was
40:57
sympathetic to what I was saying, but there was a little
40:59
bit of this push back up. Oh, you're in the SBC, that's
41:02
IFB light and committees and organizations take away from the
41:06
Lord. And you know, I, I, I'm, I'm
41:09
always going to push back against that because, you know,
41:12
committees and organization doesn't have to take away from
41:16
the Lord can actually help the mission grow faster.
41:19
And that's, you know, the, the SBC cooperative program is the
41:24
fastest vehicle to get missionaries in the world to
41:28
spread the gospel around this planet.
41:31
You know, the, the, you know, it's the largest, the SB CS, the
41:34
largest Protestant denomination in America.
41:37
And just because it's the dominant denomination doesn't
41:40
mean it's bad. Listen, if you want to be non
41:42
denominational, man, I'm, I'm, I'm happy for you.
41:46
I think that's great. And I'm not, I don't want to
41:49
criticize you at all. But you know, what are your
41:53
thoughts on that? Yeah, I think it's great as
41:56
well, you know, as the SBCII joined the convention because I
41:59
believe in the process of what they do and that we can do more
42:04
together than we can separate. Do I believe that the SBC is
42:07
perfect? Absolutely.
42:08
By no means. I do not believe that.
42:10
Agree. Yes.
42:12
I believe there's got to be some accountability, some financial
42:14
transparency, some things that we've been fighting for over the
42:16
last couple of years at the convention, I believe needs to
42:19
happen. But like you said, for someone
42:23
who is on the mission field or looking to go on the mission
42:26
field, the quickest way for them to get from the Pew to the
42:30
mission field is through the Cooperative Program.
42:33
And our Cooperative Program dollars do that.
42:37
Our aunt Andy Armstrong, a lot of men offerings do that to
42:40
support these people that are going where we can't go and have
42:44
this desire, this God-given vision to go there.
42:48
And so if we can partner and we can help in that way,
42:51
absolutely. I was talking to just a
42:55
missionary just the other day. I had lunch with them and I
42:58
asked them how long they've been on deputation and they said
43:00
we've been trying to raise support to get to the mission
43:03
field for over three years. We still have language that
43:07
we're having to go through because we've been traveling so
43:10
much. And they said we may not
43:12
actually get to the field for another year to two years.
43:15
You're looking at five years of deputation, raising support
43:19
miles on a vehicle, heartache that you're going to go through.
43:22
I mean, imagine a young person that's in that family, let's say
43:25
they're 12 years old. The family's going to have
43:29
raised support and finally get to the field.
43:31
And they're going to go off to college.
43:33
And they're never going to step foot in this mission field where
43:36
if they would have just been able to get that funding, get
43:39
the training they needed and get on the field, they're going to
43:41
have this child that's going to be there to help them to be able
43:44
to maybe be the next generation that's going to be able to reach
43:46
that next generation in that own ministry.
43:49
And so there's a lot there. There's a lot we can talk about
43:53
deputation. It's such a taxing effort on the
43:57
young, on a family that is trying to raise support.
44:00
And so, yeah, the shift of, of going to the SBC to partner
44:04
together, the resources you have, the, the resources you
44:07
give to one another, the cooperation you have with one
44:10
another, it's vital to ministry. And I believe that's why Eric
44:13
did it. And there's some other reasons
44:14
as well that that I don't have liberty to talk about.
44:17
But yeah. So another one, our number 3 is
44:21
accreditation and professionalization champions
44:25
tracks. Accreditation shows a pathway
44:28
for IFP rooted schools to gain broader academic recognition
44:32
without abandoning conservative theology that can change how
44:36
students are trained and were graduate served.
44:39
You know, that's right where we that's right where we we're at.
44:44
How many of our listeners, James or just like you have a degree
44:49
from an IFB school that is is unaccredited.
44:53
Our good friend Ashley Wynn had to go back to school, start from
44:57
Ground Zero in order to get her teaching degree.
45:02
And so a lot, this is where a lot of our listeners are AT.
45:07
And you know, I think this, this is a good change.
45:10
It was going in the right direction.
45:12
It in fact, it was, you know, I, I talk about Trinity a lot in
45:16
Jacksonville, where I got my, my accredited bachelor from.
45:20
They used to be an IFB school and because they transitioned,
45:23
they had a pathway to help guys and Gert and you know, people
45:28
like us that have unaccredited degrees to get their accredited
45:32
degree without starting back at square one.
45:35
I'll always be thankful to them for helping me out.
45:38
And so this was definitely a move in the right direction for.
45:41
Champion. Yeah, absolutely.
45:44
And I think this is a great thing for them, sort of the
45:48
pushback, especially from the classic IB critiques, they show
45:52
that this ship, they're not neutral.
45:55
They're they label this as them as adaptive and unhealthy.
46:01
Some see this as adaptive and healthy.
46:03
Some see this as a loss of conviction, right.
46:06
They have, they have forgotten the monuments that have been set
46:10
up by their forefathers. The tension that begins to
46:13
happen is the innovation versus preservation.
46:17
Are we going to innovate and move forward or we going to just
46:21
continue to preserve what was once there and never change,
46:25
never grow, never do anything and continue to do the same
46:29
thing because that's what grandpa told us to do.
46:32
And I believe this is going to be the drive that we see over
46:36
the next decade or so, the drama that begins to happen over and
46:40
over again in the IFB because they are pushing this narrative.
46:45
And what's going to happen is young people are going to say,
46:47
listen, there's, there's some innovative things out there.
46:50
We can do some of these things that are going to allow our
46:53
ministries to grow. That isn't compromising, That
46:55
isn't changing scripture, That isn't changing truth.
46:58
And I believe Eric has laid the way to say, and he went through
47:03
some dark times when he left the independent fundamental Baptist
47:05
movement. He was on the mainstage.
47:07
He was preaching at massive conferences.
47:10
He lost all of that. And so there was a definite I'm
47:15
taking a step in the right direction for the Sophie and
47:19
future of what we're doing. Exactly.
47:23
And you know, it's that kind of what you said earlier kind of
47:26
reminds me of the, the old, all the, all the IFP preachers, they
47:30
preached in that message. Don't move the landmark of the
47:33
ancestors you know, and so don't move the traditions and stuff
47:38
like that. So.
47:39
That that's kind of a snapshot of Erica Pacey's.
47:44
He's got IFP roots, he's got a builder mentality, college
47:49
founder accreditation. They achieved accreditation at
47:53
their school. And then of course, the most
47:56
notable thing is their move and shift in the SBC life.
48:01
There are no significant or sensational criminal scandals
48:06
out there in, in that we can find their cultural and
48:12
reputational things that that we've talked about.
48:16
But in but you know, you, let me ask you, James, you went there
48:20
in the IFB days, you've seen it today.
48:24
It's going in the right direction.
48:27
Yeah, I believe the champion's going the right direction.
48:28
I think Eric's going the right direction with the convention
48:31
and having a group of people around him that are going to
48:34
keep him accountable. I love what he's doing with
48:37
helping replant some churches in the area and and investing in
48:41
the Arkansas Hot Springs area, just giving revitalization of
48:46
churches in the area. I think he's doing some really
48:48
good things. One of the big critiques of when
48:51
I was there is everyone that was.
48:55
And James Spurgeon also said this about his time at Longview.
49:01
The church was there and the college was there, but the
49:04
church and college were not of the city.
49:06
The church and college were these transplant people that
49:10
were coming there and building this ministry, but they weren't
49:13
from there. Over the years, Eric, he's
49:16
always had a big bus ministry, but he's beginning to reach the
49:20
people that are around him. He's beginning to raise up
49:23
leaders from the county, from the community, which is making
49:26
his ministry stronger and better because he's got people that are
49:30
there that are grounded, that are not just coming there for a
49:32
job, but they're living there with their families and they're
49:35
loving the people and they're doing the right thing.
49:38
And so I would say, yeah, those are great things.
49:41
We are excited. We're going to go ahead and let
49:43
the cat out of the bag at this point.
49:45
We do have Eric Capaci lined up for an interview for the next
49:49
two weeks. We've got a two-part episode.
49:51
We sat down with him for over 2 hours and just picked his brain
49:56
from everything you can imagine. I think it was 18 questions that
50:01
we lined up when I, when I was reading through some of the
50:04
questions as we were prepping for it, Allison and and John,
50:08
they were like, you're going to do like a 5 hour interview.
50:11
You're asking so many questions. I said, listen, we're getting
50:14
him on here. We're going to just buckle down
50:16
and we're going to ask questions and we're going to go and SO2
50:20
non question segments that we're going to ask him.
50:24
And it's a great interview, a great time over the next couple
50:28
of weeks that you're going to hear that we're going to drop
50:30
some clips, some promo clips over the next couple of weeks as
50:33
well promoting that. You'll sort of hear some some
50:36
teaser clips of what he's going to be saying and excited about
50:39
that. I think Eric is a provocative
50:42
first step that we can use. He was the poster child for the
50:46
classic IFB isolationism, right? He, he was the one that was the
50:51
energetic guy they brought up for pastors conference.
50:54
They had a youth rally, They'd bring Eric in.
50:56
And then all of a sudden, over time, when he was so isolated,
51:00
he realized, this isn't healthy for me, this isn't healthy for
51:03
my family. And so there's got to be a
51:05
better way out of this. And so he began to transition
51:09
and he had this hybrid model of conservatism theologically while
51:13
joining a cooperative denomination and beginning to
51:17
see through this journey. And so we, we hope you've
51:21
enjoyed it. After we finished, Eric, we're
51:23
going to be jumping into Paul Chapel and West Coast Baptist
51:27
College and the model. They have their huge ministry
51:31
out there. I've been there many different
51:32
times. And so if you want to, if you
51:36
have a story, you were part of West Coast or Paul Chapel and
51:40
I've got some personal stories as well.
51:42
But if you want to come on and Share your story, please reach
51:44
out to us and let us know. So Brett Paul, Paul Chapel, he's
51:48
even got some some critics from the IP even now.
51:52
And so that is, that's going to be an interesting subject to
51:56
explore. Yeah.
51:59
If listeners want source notes or anything we quote directly,
52:03
we'll include links, citations in the show notes.
52:07
We can gather any audio or any clips.
52:10
You want it to verify anything that we say.
52:14
We're an open book. If you if we say something
52:17
inaccurate, call us out on it. That happened just a couple of
52:21
weeks ago. We had to make a correction.
52:23
We're not above that. Admitting we're human.
52:26
We make mistakes. We're, we're not above admitting
52:29
when, when we say something wrong, we, if something's wrong,
52:33
we, we want you to call us out on it because we want to give
52:35
you the most accurate information.
52:38
But man, I'll tell you, I have been chomping at the bit for
52:40
that Erica Pacey interview for a long time and I I am so glad the
52:46
time has finally arrived. Absolutely.
52:48
We can't wait to release it. Hope you enjoyed today's
52:51
episode. If you as always have enjoyed
52:54
it, share this with someone like review rate it.
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leaving ratings on our iTunes. It does help us out a little
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bit. Remember to go and check out our
53:08
Freedom bundle first five that order will get a free copy of
53:12
our book and excited about that. And until next time, to God be
53:16
the glory. Great things he has done found.
53:20
My new name found that good grace, found that healing, and
53:25
the tears fell down my face when I found my beginning and has no
53:30
ending. I found that second chance,
53:31
found my best friend, found my forgiveness, found my happiness.
53:34
I've been singing ever since and by my freedom.
53:51
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