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"Stoking Hate in Primetime." · Pod Save America

0:01
Speaker 1: Thank you.
0:21
Speaker 2: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
0:23
Speaker 1: I'm Jon Leavitt.
0:23
Speaker 3: I'm Tommy Vitor.
0:24
Speaker 2: On today's show, a mass shooter in Buffalo embraces a
0:27
Speaker 2: version of the racist replacement theory you hear from Tucker
0:30
Speaker 2: Carlson and some Republican politicians. Joe Biden sharpens his midterm
0:34
Speaker 2: message by coining the phrase ultra-MAGA. Americans join nationwide protests
0:39
Speaker 2: to defend abortion access. And later, New York Times reporter
0:42
Speaker 2: Jonathan Martin joins the pod to talk about his new book,
0:45
Speaker 2: This Will Not Pass. But first, always check out What
0:49
Speaker 2: A Day, Cricket's daily news show, but especially today's episode,
0:52
Speaker 2: which covers the racist massacre in Buffalo and the nationwide
0:55
Speaker 2: protests over Roe v. Wade, including interviews with activists who
0:59
Speaker 2: were there. It's a tough but powerful episode that is
1:02
Speaker 2: definitely worth listening to. Check it out. All right, let's
1:06
Speaker 2: get to the news. On Saturday, a heavily armed 18-year-old
1:10
Speaker 2: wearing tactical gear walked into a Buffalo supermarket and murdered
1:13
Speaker 2: 10 people while live streaming the massacre on Twitch. 11
1:17
Speaker 2: of the 13 people shot by the killer were black,
1:20
Speaker 2: which is what he wanted. Shortly before the massacre, he
1:23
Speaker 2: posted a 180-page memo that said he began browsing extremist
1:26
Speaker 2: sites like 4chan and 8chan because he was bored during
1:30
Speaker 2: the pandemic, and he ultimately came to embrace replacement theory,
1:34
Speaker 2: which is a racist belief that Western elites, and particularly Jews,
1:37
Speaker 2: are trying to replace white people and dilute their power
1:40
Speaker 2: by allowing immigration. The Buffalo Killer, who plagiarized two-thirds of
1:44
Speaker 2: his manifesto from the Christchurch Killer, who murdered dozens of
1:47
Speaker 2: Muslims in New Zealand back in 2019, wrote that black
1:50
Speaker 2: people are replacers as well. A version of replacement theory
1:54
Speaker 2: has been mainstreamed by Tucker Carlson and Republicans like the
1:57
Speaker 2: third-ranking House Republican Elise Stefanik, Senator Ron Johnson, and J.D. Vance,
2:02
Speaker 2: who argue that Democrats only support immigration to register more
2:06
Speaker 2: Democratic voters. So, Sure enough, an Associated Press poll this
2:11
Speaker 2: month found that one in three Americans now believe that
2:14
Speaker 2: an effort is underway to replace native-born Americans with immigrants
2:18
Speaker 2: for electoral gains. Tommy, to what extent are Tucker Carlson
2:22
Speaker 2: and some of these Trumpy Republican politicians at fault for
2:26
Speaker 2: these numbers?
2:28
Speaker 4: For the numbers, I think they're significantly at fault. I
2:31
Speaker 4: think in the specific case of this horrific shooting in Buffalo,
2:34
Speaker 4: there's no evidence yet that this individual was watching Tucker.
2:37
Speaker 4: It sounds like it was Reddit, 4chan, 8chan. That, of course,
2:40
Speaker 4: could have included Tucker Carlson content.
2:42
Speaker 3: We don't know.
2:43
Speaker 4: But I think the role that Tucker plays in particular
2:45
Speaker 4: is he is the bridge between the far right, overtly,
2:49
Speaker 4: proudly racist, anti-Semitic fringe and what you can say on
2:53
Speaker 4: cable TV. He bridges that gap. So Tucker doesn't say,
2:57
Speaker 4: you know, there's a Jewish plot to bring black and
2:59
Speaker 4: brown people into this country and replace white voters. He
3:01
Speaker 4: says Democrats want to replace legacy Americans with more obedient
3:07
Speaker 4: people from faraway countries.
3:08
Speaker 3: That's how he tries to stand it down.
3:10
Speaker 4: And I always think back to how in like July
3:13
Speaker 4: of 2020, we learned that Tucker's head writer was fired
3:17
Speaker 4: because CNN found out that this guy was posting on
3:20
Speaker 4: a like virulently overtly.
3:23
Speaker 3: Racist online forum and had been doing it for years.
3:25
Speaker 4: And this is a guy who wrote for Tucker's show,
3:27
Speaker 4: helped write his books, started working at the Daily Caller,
3:30
Speaker 4: in fact. And so this is kind of like what
3:33
Speaker 4: we've learned is the MO of Tucker's show. They troll
3:36
Speaker 4: extreme right-wing sites, they sanitize things just enough, and then
3:41
Speaker 4: they spread it to masses. And the New York Times
3:42
Speaker 4: found that in more than 400 episodes of his show,
3:45
Speaker 4: Carlson amplified the notion that democratic politicians and other elites
3:49
Speaker 4: want to force demographic change through immigration. So big picture,
3:54
Speaker 4: like the core sentiment and ideas that make up the
3:57
Speaker 4: great replacement theory are not new. Draws from very old racist,
4:01
Speaker 4: anti-Semitic conspiracy theories that have been around forever. But Tucker
4:05
Speaker 4: is mainlining it into millions of households every night.
4:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think he can, he serves the role
4:10
Speaker 2: of sparking people's curiosity. So they see something mentioned on
4:13
Speaker 2: his show and then they start looking online and they
4:16
Speaker 2: go down some much more extremist rabbit holes and he
4:19
Speaker 2: helps legitimize it by sort of sanding down some of
4:22
Speaker 2: the more extremist edges of the stuff that you find
4:24
Speaker 2: online for cable. Lovett, what do you think?
4:27
Speaker 1: I think whether or not this person was specifically inspired
4:30
Speaker 1: by Tucker Carlson or specifically inspired by Elise Stefanik is
4:33
Speaker 1: sort of beside the point. The hold of this kind
4:36
Speaker 1: of rhetoric on the right is a threat to the country,
4:38
Speaker 1: and it's a threat to the country and a menace,
4:40
Speaker 1: whether or not at the very bottom of this engagement
4:43
Speaker 1: funnel from casual trolls on social media to racists, 4chan
4:49
Speaker 1: posters to the people shouting, lock her up, to insurrectionists.
4:52
Speaker 1: There's someone today or tomorrow or the next day at
4:55
Speaker 1: the very bottom of this pit of violent, racist rhetoric
4:59
Speaker 1: who will go all the way, right? And they will
5:02
Speaker 1: take it upon themselves to do violence. This will happen regularly.
5:05
Speaker 1: It will happen unpredictably for the indefinite future. You know,
5:09
Speaker 1: at any time, there's some number of broken, angry, lonely,
5:14
Speaker 1: socially maladjusted young men who are losing touch with reality,
5:18
Speaker 1: they are radicalizing in one way or another, and they're
5:20
Speaker 1: becoming more capable of violence, and they will latch onto
5:23
Speaker 1: this fascistic, hateful, racist conspiracy theory because it's ideal, it's perfect,
5:28
Speaker 1: and either it will find them or they will find it.
5:30
Speaker 1: And when someone as prominent as Tucker Carlson gives it purchase,
5:35
Speaker 1: it means it is everywhere. He's the most prominent white
5:37
Speaker 1: nationalist in America, which probably makes him the most prominent
5:40
Speaker 1: white nationalist in the world. So that's what I think.
5:45
Speaker 5: Yeah.
5:45
Speaker 2: And look, I think it's not just a danger of
5:47
Speaker 2: radicalizing individuals here. They are organizing because they are finding
5:51
Speaker 2: each other online. This is why he you know, the
5:54
Speaker 2: manifesto was two thirds of it was plagiarized from the
5:57
Speaker 2: Christchurch killers manifesto.
5:59
Speaker 6: Right.
5:59
Speaker 2: Like this is this is multiplying. And, you know, I
6:03
Speaker 2: think the person who put it best was not necessarily
6:06
Speaker 2: a Democrat or someone on the left. But Liz Cheney,
6:08
Speaker 2: a conservative Republican, tweeted this morning, the House GOP leadership
6:12
Speaker 2: tweeted Monday morning. The House GOP leadership has enabled white nationalism,
6:16
Speaker 2: white supremacy, and anti-Semitism. History has taught us that what
6:20
Speaker 2: begins with words ends in far worse. GOP leaders must
6:23
Speaker 2: renounce and reject these views and those who hold them.
6:27
Speaker 2: It's a lot more than just being upset at Donald
6:29
Speaker 2: Trump for the insurrection. She's gone a little broader at
6:32
Speaker 2: this point.
6:33
Speaker 6: Yeah.
6:33
Speaker 2: In her accusation.
6:34
Speaker 3: She's speaking truth here.
6:36
Speaker 2: So Elise Stefanik is being criticized for Facebook ads she
6:39
Speaker 2: ran last fall that accused Democrats of, quote, a permanent
6:42
Speaker 2: election insurrection. because their plan to offer a pathway to
6:45
Speaker 2: citizenship for undocumented immigrants will, quote, overthrow our current electorate
6:49
Speaker 2: and create a permanent liberal majority. Her spokesman responded Monday
6:53
Speaker 2: morning by saying she's, quote, never advocated for any racist
6:56
Speaker 2: position or made a racist statement.
6:58
Speaker 6: Sure.
6:58
Speaker 2: Tommy, what do you think of the now common right-wing
7:01
Speaker 2: response to all this, that this is just a disagreement
7:03
Speaker 2: about immigration policy?
7:06
Speaker 6: Yeah.
7:07
Speaker 4: The challenge is this framework for how they want to
7:09
Speaker 4: discuss immigration. Immigration or this disagreement over immigration policy is
7:13
Speaker 4: just sort of fundamentally race-based if you're gonna say I'm
7:17
Speaker 4: not racist I just don't think we should allow any
7:19
Speaker 4: more immigration from the continent of Africa Are we gonna
7:22
Speaker 4: pretend that there's not a fundamentally racist approach there? they're
7:26
Speaker 4: saying that there's a majority white group of people in
7:29
Speaker 4: America now who are Legitimate and then new people who
7:33
Speaker 4: want to come in are not legitimate or not as
7:35
Speaker 4: worthy and again back to Tucker Carlson Tucker says The
7:40
Speaker 4: worst attack on our democracy in 160 years was not
7:43
Speaker 4: the insurrection. It was the Immigration Act of 1965. That
7:47
Speaker 4: law got rid of the previous system, which basically overtly
7:51
Speaker 4: tried to preserve America's racial makeup by promoting immigration from
7:55
Speaker 4: northern and western Europe. So, you know, they're kind of
7:58
Speaker 4: giving up the game here. It's also just pathetic. Your
8:00
Speaker 4: political party compete for votes. You know, I mean, what
8:03
Speaker 4: is it about new immigrants that you think makes them democratic?
8:06
Speaker 3: It's again, the race.
8:07
Speaker 2: It's also it's wrong.
8:09
Speaker 3: It is wrong. In recent years, especially with Latino voters.
8:12
Speaker 2: The assumption that new immigrants will vote for Democrats is
8:14
Speaker 2: just wrong and racist on its own. And look, you know,
8:17
Speaker 2: Rich Lowry and some other people on the right were
8:19
Speaker 2: pointing out today like, oh, well, Democrats used to say
8:22
Speaker 2: that a diversifying nation would help them. There is a
8:25
Speaker 2: bit of a difference there. between saying certain demographic groups
8:28
Speaker 2: are maybe more likely to vote for one party or
8:31
Speaker 2: the other and accusing one party of a plot to
8:34
Speaker 2: open our borders so that one demographic group can replace another.
8:37
Speaker 6: Like, I don't know.
8:37
Speaker 2: I don't know how you can't tell the difference between
8:39
Speaker 2: those two things.
8:40
Speaker 1: I think they can tell the difference, actually, is what
8:42
Speaker 1: I think. I think they can tell the difference.
8:43
Speaker 6: Yeah.
8:43
Speaker 1: I mean, look, it's like Stefanik's rhetoric is, you know,
8:49
Speaker 1: she's delegitimizing immigration. She's delegitimizing their votes, like this idea
8:54
Speaker 1: of being replaced, of being overthrown, of it being an
8:57
Speaker 1: insurrection and saying your power is being taken illegitimately by
9:01
Speaker 1: these people, these other people. Carlson has called them like
9:05
Speaker 1: legacy Americans, right?
9:06
Speaker 3: Like people who.
9:07
Speaker 1: Have been here for generations, that they should count more,
9:09
Speaker 1: have more of a say, right? So they're all, they
9:13
Speaker 1: all know what they're doing. They all know what they're saying. And,
9:14
Speaker 1: you know, Stefanik is, she is She's entirely cynical. She
9:19
Speaker 1: is maybe quietly the most cynical, and she sees where
9:22
Speaker 1: her people are going, and that's where she wants to
9:23
Speaker 1: lead them.
9:24
Speaker 2: She was a formerly mainstream Republican who was once criticized
9:29
Speaker 2: by anti-immigration groups for supporting legal status for undocumented workers.
9:34
Speaker 2: You talk to people who went to school with her
9:36
Speaker 2: at Harvard. They'll tell you she was just a moderate
9:39
Speaker 2: Republican then. Tommy, what do you think happened to Elise Stefanik?
9:42
Speaker 4: You know, she's not the first or last Republican who
9:46
Speaker 4: became a political coward when it comes to the immigration debate.
9:49
Speaker 3: I mean, remember Marco Rubio.
9:50
Speaker 4: Was going to lead the fight on the right to
9:52
Speaker 4: get to comprehensive immigration reform. She, in a lot of ways,
9:57
Speaker 4: she makes me more, at least Stefanik, that is, makes
9:59
Speaker 4: me more frustrated and nervous than like the Paul Gosart,
10:04
Speaker 4: Marjorie Taylor Greene lunatic fringe, because I just think she's
10:06
Speaker 4: doing this for personal gain. It tells you a dangerous
10:10
Speaker 4: story about the trajectory of the Republican Party. I mean,
10:13
Speaker 4: she made a bet around impeachment to go full MAGA.
10:16
Speaker 4: and rake in that campaign money and motivate her base voters.
10:18
Speaker 4: And then she made a play for leadership, knowing that
10:21
Speaker 4: the far right doesn't really trust her, which is why
10:23
Speaker 4: she got even Trumpier still. And she's calling Democrats pedo grifters.
10:27
Speaker 4: That was over the weekend, I think. And, you know,
10:30
Speaker 4: the one ironclad.
10:31
Speaker 3: Rule of like MAGA world is.
10:33
Speaker 4: You can never cave to the left. You can never
10:36
Speaker 4: tell the social justice warriors online that they're right.
10:39
Speaker 6: Right.
10:39
Speaker 4: And so she's just as dug in as she's going
10:41
Speaker 4: to be.
10:43
Speaker 1: She's a little bit like New York's J.D.
10:45
Speaker 3: Vance.
10:46
Speaker 1: It's entirely manufactured. It's entirely a performance. It's a shift
10:50
Speaker 1: you watch unfold in real time. But there's something so
10:52
Speaker 1: despicable and revealing about the statements she put out today.
10:56
Speaker 1: 10 people are dead. It is a terrible tragedy. It's
11:01
Speaker 1: a tragedy in her state. And if you look at
11:04
Speaker 1: the statement that she put out, the first few lines
11:07
Speaker 1: are her expressing sadness at the event. And the vast
11:11
Speaker 1: majority of it is victimizing herself, her spokesperson, just performing
11:17
Speaker 1: for Fox News, playing the victim, there is no tragedy
11:21
Speaker 1: that they can't turn into an opportunity to feel as
11:23
Speaker 1: though they're being made a victim, even though 10 people
11:26
Speaker 1: are dead because of hateful rhetoric that she very much spouted.
11:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, she is like Kevin McCarthy or J.D. Vance or
11:33
Speaker 2: so many Republicans, a power-hungry phony. They know better. They
11:38
Speaker 2: see where the base is. They see where Tucker's leading
11:41
Speaker 2: the party every night, and they want the position. And
11:44
Speaker 2: you know what? She got to be number three in
11:46
Speaker 2: the House when they kicked Liz Cheney out. And now
11:49
Speaker 2: she someday wants the speaker job.
11:51
Speaker 6: Right.
11:51
Speaker 2: And so she's going to say whatever it takes to
11:53
Speaker 2: get there.
11:53
Speaker 4: I just like if and if you do have a
11:56
Speaker 4: sincere disagreement on immigration policy, just acknowledge that talking about
12:01
Speaker 4: replacement is linking you to this rhetoric that has incited
12:06
Speaker 4: multiple mass murderers. The Tree of Life Synagogue, the El
12:09
Speaker 4: Paso shooter, Buffalo, Christchurch, Charleston shooter, Dylann Roof. like posted
12:15
Speaker 4: Nazi references, that Norwegian psycho shot up a summer camp, right?
12:18
Speaker 4: Like at some point you have to just acknowledge reality
12:23
Speaker 4: and think to yourself, am I actually contributing to a
12:27
Speaker 4: problem where innocent people are getting massacred regularly? That's where
12:31
Speaker 4: I would, that's where my head would be.
12:33
Speaker 1: And we have these debates over these individual examples, but
12:36
Speaker 1: the thing I always come back to is this, I
12:37
Speaker 1: have like sort of stochastic terrorism or stochastic fascism. You
12:41
Speaker 1: pump enough of this filth into the air over and
12:44
Speaker 1: over and over again, there are enough broken people in
12:46
Speaker 1: this world that somebody is going to follow your argument
12:49
Speaker 1: to its logical conclusion. And that will continue to happen.
12:52
Speaker 1: It will just continue to happen.
12:54
Speaker 2: So the killer live streamed the massacre on the platform Twitch, uh,
12:57
Speaker 2: which said it removed the video within two minutes of
12:59
Speaker 2: the start of the violence. But by that time it
13:01
Speaker 2: was already shared hundreds of times on other social media platforms. Uh,
13:05
Speaker 2: and of course the killer was radicalized online, as we mentioned.
13:08
Speaker 6: Um, Love it.
13:09
Speaker 2: What responsibility do social media companies have to keep this
13:11
Speaker 2: violence and extremism off their platforms and how much can
13:14
Speaker 2: they actually do?
13:16
Speaker 1: They have a lot of responsibility and they can do more.
13:20
Speaker 1: You know, they hide behind scale that, oh, they're doing
13:23
Speaker 1: the best they can, that these things are hard. These
13:25
Speaker 1: are hard, hard problems to solve. But we don't accept
13:28
Speaker 1: a supermarket that said they built the store too big
13:31
Speaker 1: and so some of the food will kill you. We
13:33
Speaker 1: don't accept building codes that say our building is too big.
13:36
Speaker 1: Some of it may fall down on top of you.
13:38
Speaker 1: You built these machines. And if you guys don't want
13:40
Speaker 1: to spend the money and put in the resources and
13:43
Speaker 1: put in the time to figure out how to keep
13:44
Speaker 1: this stuff off of your platform, that is not something
13:47
Speaker 1: we need to accept. That's a problem they have to solve.
13:49
Speaker 2: Tommy, what do you think?
13:50
Speaker 4: I mean, they did a good job keeping ISIS propaganda
13:53
Speaker 4: off a lot of these platforms. And I don't understand
13:56
Speaker 4: how I can't extend to incidents like this. Like, sure,
13:59
Speaker 4: you know, from what I read, CNN reported that like
14:04
Speaker 4: 20 people were watching this thing live. And then they
14:06
Speaker 4: conspired together on 4chan to find ways to save and
14:09
Speaker 4: re-upload the video. But I mean, last night I was
14:12
Speaker 4: looking around on Twitter and if you searched Buffalo shooter,
14:17
Speaker 4: the video would just pop up and autoplay in your feed.
14:20
Speaker 4: And that is terrifying. And it was all over Facebook.
14:23
Speaker 4: And I saw some reporting that Facebook said it didn't
14:25
Speaker 4: violate their terms of service. And like, this has been
14:28
Speaker 4: happening for years, years. I don't know how they haven't
14:31
Speaker 4: figured this stuff out. Millions of people end up seeing
14:34
Speaker 4: these videos This shooter was inspired by an identical video
14:38
Speaker 4: by someone else.
14:39
Speaker 3: I don't get how we cannot stop this.
14:41
Speaker 2: Content moderation is difficult, but sometimes these platforms would like
14:46
Speaker 2: you to believe it's impossible, and it is not. Like,
14:49
Speaker 2: you know, it's good that Twitch took it down after
14:51
Speaker 2: two minutes, but it raises the question, should the ability
14:54
Speaker 2: to livestream be so easily accessible? Twitch allows anyone to
14:59
Speaker 2: go live.
15:00
Speaker 3: YouTube.
15:02
Speaker 2: requires users to verify their account and have at least
15:04
Speaker 2: 50 subscribers, so they're even putting up some kind of
15:07
Speaker 2: barriers that Twitch doesn't have. Like you mentioned on Twitter,
15:11
Speaker 2: Twitter hadn't removed a lot of the posts until contacted
15:14
Speaker 2: by the New York Times, and then they put out
15:16
Speaker 2: a statement saying, okay, now we're going to go remove
15:17
Speaker 2: the posts, but clearly they were up there for a
15:19
Speaker 2: long time.
15:20
Speaker 4: I saw them before I walked in today, still on
15:23
Speaker 4: their site.
15:24
Speaker 1: Treat it with the seriousness that you would take something
15:27
Speaker 1: really dangerous, like a tit on Instagram. or, or, or,
15:33
Speaker 1: or an unauthorized bit of Warner Brothers footage, you know?
15:37
Speaker 6: Right.
15:37
Speaker 4: I mean, we can take, YouTube can take down a, uh,
15:41
Speaker 4: a song in an instant.
15:43
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
15:44
Speaker 4: Like, why can't you take down the sound of a gunshot?
15:46
Speaker 2: Well, it also shows why Elon Musk's, uh, comments about
15:51
Speaker 2: free speech and Twitter that, you know, he's going to
15:53
Speaker 2: allow as much free, he's not going to go beyond
15:55
Speaker 2: the law and he's going to allow everything else. Well,
15:58
Speaker 2: the manifesto would be allowed under the law. A lot
16:02
Speaker 2: of this stuff, this filth, this hate that's all over
16:06
Speaker 2: social media that's radicalizing people is not technically against the law,
16:10
Speaker 2: but it is certainly hate speech that is within the
16:13
Speaker 2: power of a lot of these platforms to control. And
16:16
Speaker 2: to say that you're going to go buy Twitter and
16:17
Speaker 2: just let everything go that's within the law is a cop-out, ignorant,
16:22
Speaker 2: all of the above. Yeah.
16:23
Speaker 4: He's not thought about this for more than two minutes,
16:26
Speaker 4: as evidenced by his recent tweets.
16:28
Speaker 2: Yeah.
16:28
Speaker 1: He's also got a little bit of buyer's remorse, it seems.
16:32
Speaker 1: He's very much caught the car. He's like, I don't
16:34
Speaker 1: like the.
16:35
Speaker 3: Way this car tastes.
16:36
Speaker 4: He caught the car and the car's value went down 30%.
16:38
Speaker 3: So he's like, uh, bots?
16:40
Speaker 2: Trying to find lame excuses to get out of this.
16:43
Speaker 2: One person who's been more aggressive in calling out Republican
16:45
Speaker 2: extremism lately is President Biden. Last week, he coined the phrase, quote,
16:49
Speaker 2: ultra MAGA during a speech about the economy. And he
16:51
Speaker 2: called Trump the great MAGA king. There's apparently some research
16:56
Speaker 2: behind this. The Washington Post reports that the Center for
16:59
Speaker 2: American Progress and Biden advisor Anita Dunn conducted a six-month
17:03
Speaker 2: project where they found that voters view the word MAGA
17:06
Speaker 2: as more negative than even phrases like Trump Republicans. And
17:10
Speaker 2: in battleground areas, more than twice as many voters said
17:13
Speaker 2: they'd be less likely to vote for someone called a
17:15
Speaker 2: MAGA Republican than would be more likely. Trump and other
17:19
Speaker 2: Republican politicians, of course, are embracing the label and using
17:22
Speaker 2: it to sell merch and raise money. Uh, Tommy, do
17:26
Speaker 2: you buy the research? Is this the midterm message about
17:28
Speaker 2: Republicans we've all been waiting for?
17:30
Speaker 4: Ultra Maga kind of reminded me of, of clockwork orange,
17:34
Speaker 4: ultra violence.
17:35
Speaker 3: I wonder if that was intentional.
17:37
Speaker 4: Um, I think that calling your opponent extreme is a
17:41
Speaker 4: tried and true method to win elections. Not a big
17:45
Speaker 4: fan of ultra Maga. I'm not a big fan of
17:47
Speaker 4: the great Maga King. The latter in particular does sound
17:50
Speaker 4: like a compliment. But if they could tell a larger
17:53
Speaker 4: story about the extremism of the modern Republican Party from
17:58
Speaker 4: banning abortion to tax code to whatever, like string it
18:03
Speaker 4: all together, tell a story, make it a narrative, sure.
18:06
Speaker 4: I don't think we should run around calling Donald Trump king.
18:10
Speaker 3: He likes it. Burger King. I don't know. None of it.
18:14
Speaker 2: Trump likes it. Trump's going to be selling MAGA King t-shirts.
18:16
Speaker 2: I think they already are.
18:17
Speaker 3: I think they are too.
18:18
Speaker 2: Love it. Uh, yeah.
18:20
Speaker 1: I mean, I think when I think of ultra, I
18:22
Speaker 1: think of, you know, uh, uh, a kind of watery beer, but, uh, I,
18:30
Speaker 1: I think MAGA Republicans is good. I think ultra MAGA,
18:33
Speaker 1: I sort of, I don't mind it. It does feel
18:34
Speaker 1: like it's gilding the lily. And isn't the whole point
18:37
Speaker 1: that the MAGA is the extreme piece. Like MAGA Republicans
18:40
Speaker 1: are bad.
18:41
Speaker 2: Are there MAGA Republicans we're okay with? Like, is it
18:44
Speaker 2: the ultra MAGAs that we have to worry about?
18:47
Speaker 1: It was the first day of rolling an out show.
18:51
Speaker 1: We don't need the new model yet.
18:53
Speaker 3: Let's try MAGA Republicans for a beat.
18:54
Speaker 1: That's the thing they tested.
18:57
Speaker 3: MKUltra.
18:58
Speaker 6: MKUltra, right.
19:00
Speaker 1: Is that when they tested LSD on people?
19:02
Speaker 3: Is that what that is? Yeah, among other things, yeah.
19:04
Speaker 2: Cool, cool, cool. So I will say, Cap and Anita,
19:08
Speaker 2: I trust the research that says that MAGA is useful
19:13
Speaker 2: here and works and is effective. I'm surprised that MAGA
19:16
Speaker 2: works better. MAGA Republican works better than Trump Republicans, just
19:20
Speaker 2: because you'd think more people would be aware of Trump
19:23
Speaker 2: than the phrase MAGA.
19:24
Speaker 3: But, you know, whatever.
19:25
Speaker 2: That's the research. I do think that the key here
19:27
Speaker 2: for Democrats is you can't shortcut the story for why
19:32
Speaker 2: the Republican Party is extremist by just using the word MAGA.
19:35
Speaker 2: This is like Terry McAuliffe calling him Glenn Trumpkin and
19:39
Speaker 2: just like letting it go. Like you got to tell
19:41
Speaker 2: the whole story. I know that sometimes Democrats are obsessed
19:44
Speaker 2: with like the you know, we need a bumper sticker
19:46
Speaker 2: message and where's our Frank Luntz and let's listen to
19:49
Speaker 2: George Lakoff and all that bullshit. And you get yourself
19:51
Speaker 2: a slogan, right? It's not the slogan. It's not the
19:54
Speaker 2: phrase that sells it. It's the story behind why they
19:57
Speaker 2: marry a Republican. So we have to just be sure
20:00
Speaker 2: to use clear examples over and over and over again
20:03
Speaker 2: of their extremism to remind people of why they're extreme
20:06
Speaker 2: and not just call them mag and think that's going
20:07
Speaker 2: to do all the work. That's just one, one caution.
20:10
Speaker 1: And I do think Biden did that when he was
20:12
Speaker 1: rolling out the MAG. He told the story in a
20:13
Speaker 1: really good way. And I do think that the kind
20:17
Speaker 1: of two pillars, these sort of they're telling you how
20:19
Speaker 1: to live. Here are the ways they're coming after your teachers,
20:22
Speaker 1: your doctors, your health care decisions, all of that. And
20:25
Speaker 1: then and they're also coming after Medicare. They're coming after Medicaid.
20:28
Speaker 1: They're coming after Social Security. The sort of Rick Scott agenda,
20:30
Speaker 1: like those two things together tied to MAG Republicans, I
20:34
Speaker 1: think is very good.
20:45
Speaker 2: So before we get to the interview, we thought we'd
20:47
Speaker 2: end on an optimistic note. There were hundreds of marches
20:50
Speaker 2: and rallies on Saturday where tens of thousands of people
20:53
Speaker 2: turned out to protest the Supreme Court's expected decision to
20:56
Speaker 2: overturn Roe v.
20:57
Speaker 6: Wade.
20:58
Speaker 2: Our team at Whataday talked to some people at the
21:00
Speaker 2: Los Angeles protest. You can hear that segment on today's Whataday.
21:03
Speaker 2: And we will also have a special preview at the
21:05
Speaker 2: end of this episode. So stick around for that. Thanks
21:08
Speaker 2: to the Whataday team for grabbing that audio. Tommy, Emily, Charlie,
21:12
Speaker 2: and I were also at the protest. Love it. I
21:14
Speaker 2: know you were at the D.C. protest. Um, what'd you
21:16
Speaker 2: guys think of the crowd and the energy?
21:18
Speaker 6: Love it.
21:18
Speaker 2: What'd you think in DC?
21:20
Speaker 1: Well, to be honest, at first I was just there
21:21
Speaker 1: to get a picture so I could virtue signal on Instagram. Um,
21:25
Speaker 1: that was the goal. That was the whole reason I
21:27
Speaker 1: was there. Uh, but then I had a, it had
21:28
Speaker 1: a surprising impact on me. The more I stayed around. No, I, um, no,
21:34
Speaker 1: I was that, well, you know, there's something I hadn't
21:37
Speaker 1: been to a protest since in, in a year or two. And, um,
21:42
Speaker 1: it was just really heartening to be out there, especially, um, I, uh,
21:46
Speaker 1: I rented a bird scooter and I was driving around
21:48
Speaker 1: and I was kind of with like, kind of squirt,
21:50
Speaker 1: skirt into this protest, kind of hang for a bit
21:52
Speaker 1: and then drive to another part of it. And I
21:54
Speaker 1: kind of went up, uh, I went up Capitol Hill
21:56
Speaker 1: a little bit ahead of the protest and I kind
21:57
Speaker 1: of turned left. And then I saw the whole March
22:01
Speaker 1: coming up Capitol Hill towards the Supreme court.
22:03
Speaker 3: And it was massive. It was massive.
22:06
Speaker 1: And for one little moment, my, my cynical heart opened, uh,
22:11
Speaker 1: the sun was shining in my mind. It was very moving.
22:15
Speaker 1: And I felt like I wanted to fight.
22:18
Speaker 6: Ooh.
22:19
Speaker 1: And it was just great seeing everybody really was.
22:21
Speaker 3: It was good seeing everybody out there.
22:22
Speaker 2: Tell me what you think.
22:23
Speaker 4: It's been a long time since there have been protests
22:26
Speaker 4: quite that large. And it's, I think it's good that
22:29
Speaker 4: people turned out to talk about Rose specifically because it's
22:33
Speaker 4: a critical issue to a lot of people. I think
22:34
Speaker 4: it's good for the democratic party to flex that muscle again,
22:37
Speaker 4: because we're going to need more direct action.
22:40
Speaker 3: Um, coming years.
22:42
Speaker 4: And I also think one of the things that I
22:44
Speaker 4: really love about marches and rallies like that is that
22:48
Speaker 4: you can see people finding joy in community and just
22:51
Speaker 4: coming together and being together. People are angry and they're
22:53
Speaker 4: sad and they're scared about what's happening in the world.
22:55
Speaker 4: But unlike the constant anger and nastiness on the internet,
23:02
Speaker 4: you see people with funny signs, they're with groups of friends,
23:05
Speaker 4: they're coming together. And that I think is the power
23:09
Speaker 4: of these marches, like you can fight for something and
23:13
Speaker 4: have fun and do it with people you care about
23:15
Speaker 4: and find real joy and purpose in that movement. And
23:19
Speaker 4: I think that's an important thing to remember or to
23:21
Speaker 4: realize for the first time and to want to be
23:24
Speaker 4: a part of because we want people, we need people
23:26
Speaker 4: to turn out for these marches and not think that's
23:28
Speaker 4: something other people do.
23:30
Speaker 2: There is no substitute for in-person physical community organizing we've
23:37
Speaker 2: all been part we have all been living through this
23:39
Speaker 2: pandemic for the last several years a lot of people
23:41
Speaker 2: may do with organizing online but again you just referenced
23:45
Speaker 2: this like the more you are watching these stories unfold
23:49
Speaker 2: on your phone the more you are seeing the cynicism
23:52
Speaker 2: and dejection and disappointment only and you're not seeing sort
23:56
Speaker 2: of like the inspirational nature of people coming together to
23:59
Speaker 2: fight and when we walk down there this weekend That's
24:02
Speaker 2: what you saw. You saw people ready to fight. You
24:04
Speaker 2: saw people inspired. You saw people ready to take action.
24:07
Speaker 2: And you don't see that shit if you're just scrolling
24:09
Speaker 2: through Twitter all day or on Facebook or Instagram or
24:12
Speaker 2: wherever else.
24:13
Speaker 1: It also was really nice to see. It was mostly women,
24:18
Speaker 1: at least the protests that I saw.
24:20
Speaker 3: Plenty of men.
24:22
Speaker 1: But it was like, you know, Gen Z all the
24:27
Speaker 1: way to Just just, you know, baby boomers that have
24:30
Speaker 1: been out there protesting for 50 years. And it was
24:34
Speaker 1: great seeing that it was just so many furious women
24:40
Speaker 1: just like happy to be out with each other and
24:44
Speaker 1: feeling connected to each other. And I felt glad to
24:47
Speaker 1: be able to see that when we got to the
24:49
Speaker 1: Supreme Court, there was a very small anti-abortion protest. And
24:55
Speaker 1: it was very it was peacefully but fully surrounded. by
24:58
Speaker 1: like cheering and dancing younger people. And then there were
25:03
Speaker 1: just all these sort of older couples coming through. It
25:05
Speaker 1: was great to see.
25:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll say that we met a woman who told us, please,
25:12
Speaker 2: please relate a love it that I'm a baby boomer
25:14
Speaker 2: and I'm here. So you've made an impression on an
25:17
Speaker 2: entire generation.
25:18
Speaker 3: You've offended, which is great.
25:20
Speaker 1: And as I've said before, I'll say it again to
25:23
Speaker 1: all the baby boomers listening, you're not the ones I'm
25:25
Speaker 1: talking about You've done your best to overcome the lead
25:28
Speaker 1: poisoning that has ravaged your mind due to leaded gasoline.
25:32
Speaker 3: Jesus Christ. I think that's it for today.
25:35
Speaker 2: Cut off the feet in New York. Thank you.
25:38
Speaker 1: Love you.
25:40
Speaker 3: All right.
25:40
Speaker 2: When we come back, Tommy and I will talk to
25:42
Speaker 2: New York Times reporter Jonathan Martin about his new book,
25:44
Speaker 2: This Will Not Pass. Joining us now, New York Times
25:57
Speaker 2: national political correspondent and co-author with Alex Burns of the blockbuster,
26:02
Speaker 2: New York Times bestseller, This Will Not Pass. Jonathan Martin,
26:06
Speaker 2: welcome to the pod.
26:08
Speaker 6: Man, this is why Fabs is a gifted speechwriter, Tommy.
26:11
Speaker 6: He can deliver that kind of prose, man. It's just effortless.
26:15
Speaker 6: You like that?
26:15
Speaker 3: No, no, no, no.
26:16
Speaker 4: He meant Blockbuster like the video store that went out
26:18
Speaker 4: of business. That's what's happening to the book industry, pal.
26:24
Speaker 3: How you doing?
26:26
Speaker 6: You know, I'm old enough to actually recall some big
26:28
Speaker 6: nights at Blockbuster myself back in the day.
26:31
Speaker 3: I know, me too. I just dated myself. Jonathan, I've
26:34
Speaker 3: been reading the book. It is excellent.
26:37
Speaker 4: I imagine a lot of our listeners have seen all
26:40
Speaker 4: the scoops. That have spilled out of the book in
26:43
Speaker 4: advance of publication. So I want to start with a
26:47
Speaker 4: bit of a process question because, you know, I'm talking
26:49
Speaker 4: to a New York Times political reporter.
26:51
Speaker 3: Sure.
26:52
Speaker 4: You guys took some shit on Twitter for quote unquote
26:55
Speaker 4: holding things for the book. As much as I would
26:57
Speaker 4: love to scream at you for old time's sake, I
27:00
Speaker 4: found a bunch of that criticism. a bit off and
27:03
Speaker 4: a bit of a misunderstanding about how book reporting gets
27:05
Speaker 4: done and the way people are willing to talk to
27:08
Speaker 4: reporters like you for a book versus tomorrow's paper. Can
27:11
Speaker 4: you explain to listeners how that works and how you
27:14
Speaker 4: decide what goes in the paper versus a book?
27:17
Speaker 6: Yeah. Well, first of all, guys, thanks for having me on.
27:19
Speaker 6: And full disclosure, I've known these two cats for many years.
27:24
Speaker 6: Back before they were on the fashionable left coast, they
27:27
Speaker 6: were trudging away in D.C. You were just a blogger,
27:31
Speaker 6: I think. I know.
27:34
Speaker 2: Some startup. Politico.
27:36
Speaker 6: That's right. Thepolitico.com. So it's a good question. Look, I
27:42
Speaker 6: think it's fair to get that critique. I would say
27:48
Speaker 6: two things. Like one, well, first of all, I would
27:51
Speaker 6: just like generally as a rule, we don't discuss sourcing,
27:53
Speaker 6: but like two things generally on this topic. One is,
27:59
Speaker 6: you know, yeah, when you're speaking to people, and the
28:02
Speaker 6: ground rules are for a book, obviously the response is different.
28:08
Speaker 6: The nature of the conversation is different. And especially when
28:13
Speaker 6: it comes to sensitive matters, it's a very different conversation
28:17
Speaker 6: and sort of dialogue. And people are much more willing
28:20
Speaker 6: to talk candidly when they know that they're speaking for
28:23
Speaker 6: history and not for tomorrow's paper or even next week's paper.
28:28
Speaker 6: And I think in the case of this book, we
28:32
Speaker 6: were really pleased with people in both parties, like how
28:35
Speaker 6: much they opened up, um, talking about this period, uh,
28:39
Speaker 6: after we assured that, you know, of course this is
28:42
Speaker 6: not going to be out for a year or so.
28:45
Speaker 6: And so that was striking. The other thing is you
28:48
Speaker 6: have to have like pretty ironclad, uh, agreements that like,
28:53
Speaker 6: this is for the paper, this is for the book. Um,
28:55
Speaker 6: because otherwise, um, it's obviously going to create challenges. Um,
29:01
Speaker 6: So I think those two things are important. And just
29:04
Speaker 6: like the last thing I'll say is the nature of
29:08
Speaker 6: this business, as you guys know, like stuff doesn't come
29:12
Speaker 6: wrapped with a big red bow outside your door. That's
29:14
Speaker 6: like the Hollywood version of journalism where it's like, oh,
29:18
Speaker 6: my gosh, we have this amazing scoop in our lap
29:20
Speaker 6: that we never even asked for. let's start writing. And
29:24
Speaker 6: it's like, no, it's a grind. It is like weeks
29:27
Speaker 6: and months of working, like various tips and hearsay and
29:32
Speaker 6: second and third hand material. And then trying to track
29:35
Speaker 6: it down. Is that right? Is it wrong? Is it
29:38
Speaker 6: kind of right? And like, that's, just the sort of
29:40
Speaker 6: nature of this business. And so it is not a glamorous, uh,
29:45
Speaker 6: like Hollywood ending where it was like, Oh, we have
29:47
Speaker 6: this thing dropped from, from above in our lap and
29:49
Speaker 6: we can just sort of print it. That's it's a
29:51
Speaker 6: much more, uh, like lengthy grueling process.
29:55
Speaker 2: I like that these people bought themselves a year. Like, oh,
30:00
Speaker 2: they're not going to screw me in tomorrow's paper next week,
30:03
Speaker 2: but a year from now, maybe I'll have a different
30:05
Speaker 2: job and it won't be a concern.
30:07
Speaker 7: Yeah.
30:08
Speaker 6: In fairness to them, I think it was more just like,
30:11
Speaker 6: you know, this is an important moment in American history.
30:14
Speaker 6: Can you talk honestly about, like, what happened at XYZ
30:18
Speaker 6: conversation or moment? And I think just, like, the nature
30:22
Speaker 6: of politicians is that if they have some assurance that
30:27
Speaker 6: it's not going to be immediate– or that they're obviously
30:30
Speaker 6: going to have their say for history, it makes it
30:35
Speaker 6: easier for them to talk. And that's the other thing, too.
30:37
Speaker 6: I think this period is so consequential for a lot
30:41
Speaker 6: of political actors that when you talk to them, they
30:44
Speaker 6: kind of want to have their say, and they want
30:46
Speaker 6: to have their voice and sort of capture in their
30:50
Speaker 6: eyes what happened and why it happened.
30:52
Speaker 4: It's a future me problem. It's like when you agree
30:54
Speaker 4: to go out to dinner with someone who sucks.
30:55
Speaker 2: Exactly right.
30:56
Speaker 3: It's exactly right.
30:57
Speaker 2: I mean, the impression I get from your book in
31:00
Speaker 2: the last few years of following politics is that Republican
31:03
Speaker 2: leaders love how Trump excites their base, but hate how
31:08
Speaker 2: he repels swing voters. And that's why they can't really
31:11
Speaker 2: figure out how to deal with them. Like, do you
31:13
Speaker 2: think that's a fair reading of the dynamic?
31:15
Speaker 6: Yeah, I do. I mean, I think it's even more
31:18
Speaker 6: straightforward than that, Favs. I mean, I think it's just
31:22
Speaker 6: their primary voters like Trump. And nothing he does or
31:27
Speaker 6: says makes them stop liking him. And so they feel
31:32
Speaker 6: like they're handcuffed to Trump because their voters like him.
31:34
Speaker 6: I just, especially in the House, I just don't feel
31:37
Speaker 6: like it's more complicated than that. If tomorrow Donald Trump
31:41
Speaker 6: stopped being popular with rank and file Republican voters, I
31:46
Speaker 6: have no doubt that the bulk of House Republicans would
31:49
Speaker 6: happily move on, right? It's just an entirely a demand
31:53
Speaker 6: side issue. As long as like the voters... And their primaries,
31:57
Speaker 6: like the former president, that's going to compel the leaders
32:01
Speaker 6: of the party in the House to stick with them.
32:04
Speaker 4: You had some really interesting reporting on Joe Biden's vice
32:09
Speaker 4: presidential selection process.
32:11
Speaker 6: Yeah.
32:12
Speaker 3: A couple of distinct pieces.
32:13
Speaker 4: One, you guys wrote about how close Senator Tammy Duckworth
32:16
Speaker 4: of Illinois came to becoming.
32:17
Speaker 3: The vice president.
32:19
Speaker 4: But you report that Biden's team was worried that because
32:21
Speaker 4: she was born in Thailand to a Thai mom and
32:23
Speaker 4: American dad, she could have faced essentially a birther conspiracy
32:27
Speaker 4: or a legal challenge. Do you think Duckworth is VP
32:31
Speaker 4: if not for that fear?
32:34
Speaker 6: I not sure I'd go that far. I think the
32:39
Speaker 6: murder of George Floyd and subsequent protest, um, I think
32:45
Speaker 6: we're probably, uh, enough that, that Biden felt, um, like
32:51
Speaker 6: he ought to pick an African American vice president. And, uh,
32:55
Speaker 6: I certainly think Senator Duckworth was a contender. I'm just
32:59
Speaker 6: not sure it got to the final, final stage, but
33:03
Speaker 6: it does speak to like the shadow that Trump cast, right.
33:08
Speaker 6: That even the perception that he would make this an
33:10
Speaker 6: issue and find like some circuit court judge somewhere to
33:15
Speaker 6: potentially knock Biden off the ballot, uh, in a given
33:19
Speaker 6: state was like enough that they just, you know, weren't
33:22
Speaker 6: totally sure it was worth, uh, pursuing. Um, But no,
33:26
Speaker 6: this is a fascinating point that you raise. Look, obviously
33:30
Speaker 6: we get why a lot of the reporting in here
33:32
Speaker 6: that's been picked up is on the Republican side, but
33:35
Speaker 6: half the book is on Democrats and on Biden in particular.
33:39
Speaker 6: And there's tons in there about both Biden and the
33:43
Speaker 6: 2020 campaign, Biden putting together his cabinet, and then Biden
33:47
Speaker 6: trying to govern in 2021. Yeah.
33:51
Speaker 4: Well, so the other part of the vice presidential selection
33:53
Speaker 4: process that really jumped out at me is, You guys
33:55
Speaker 4: report that Reid Hoffman, who's a tech billionaire donor, did
34:00
Speaker 4: a bunch of polling in focus groups about the vice
34:03
Speaker 4: presidential nominees, and that got pushed into the official vetting process.
34:08
Speaker 4: Did that surprise you, that kind of like a donor-led,
34:12
Speaker 4: I don't know, research project became part of Joe Biden's
34:15
Speaker 4: selection process?
34:17
Speaker 6: Not totally, because I think Biden was willing to sort
34:21
Speaker 6: of take that into account. I'm not I'm not super
34:24
Speaker 6: surprised that they would look at that given the detail
34:28
Speaker 6: of the polling, which, by the way, we obtained. You know,
34:33
Speaker 6: that doesn't surprise me too, too much. I mean, I
34:35
Speaker 6: think what's striking is just how sort of raw the
34:41
Speaker 6: numbers were in terms of like the American voters were
34:45
Speaker 6: going to be pretty uneasy about whichever African-American woman was picked.
34:51
Speaker 6: And I think that that was pretty sobering for the
34:54
Speaker 6: Biden folks. And I think, you know, they believe that
34:58
Speaker 6: we have to pick somebody with sort of maximum credentials
35:01
Speaker 6: because the electorate is going to be skeptical with this.
35:04
Speaker 6: And so I think Vice President Harris had been a
35:07
Speaker 6: state AG, had been a senator, had been a prosecutor
35:11
Speaker 6: at the local level from the country's largest state, was
35:14
Speaker 6: probably the best sort of credentials among the black women
35:19
Speaker 6: that they were considering.
35:21
Speaker 2: You mentioned a lot of the book is about sort
35:23
Speaker 2: of Joe Biden's.
35:25
Speaker 6: And by the way, Barack Obama, a fellow you guys
35:27
Speaker 6: know well, was pretty candid with with with the Biden
35:30
Speaker 6: folks about this, which is not discouraging them from picking
35:33
Speaker 6: a black woman, but just being real about the challenges
35:37
Speaker 6: out there with the electorate. You know, this is going
35:39
Speaker 6: to be a real this is going to be a
35:40
Speaker 6: real challenge. I think the Biden folks knew that, you know. Sorry.
35:44
Speaker 6: Go ahead, John.
35:45
Speaker 2: He lived through it.
35:46
Speaker 6: Absolutely.
35:46
Speaker 2: You mentioned a lot of the book is about Biden's
35:48
Speaker 2: challenges governing the first couple of years. Here's something I've
35:51
Speaker 2: always gone back and forth on. I have heard from
35:55
Speaker 2: sources close to the White House that they came to
35:57
Speaker 2: believe late in the game that Joe Manchin was never
36:01
Speaker 2: really serious about wanting to do a deal on Build
36:06
Speaker 2: Back Better, that he was always just trying to find
36:08
Speaker 2: an excuse to say no to kill the thing. Do
36:12
Speaker 2: you think he was ever serious about a deal? Do
36:14
Speaker 2: you think he'd do a smaller deal now?
36:15
Speaker 7: Yes.
36:16
Speaker 6: That's a great question. I've definitely picked that same kind
36:19
Speaker 6: of ex post facto regret from the White House, too, that,
36:25
Speaker 6: you know, he was forever looking for the next excuse.
36:30
Speaker 6: It could have been the war in Ukraine one day
36:32
Speaker 6: and the next day it could have been inflation. It
36:34
Speaker 6: was always something to sort of not not take the
36:37
Speaker 6: bite out of the apple. Look, I think if you
36:39
Speaker 6: look at what he put on paper and gave to
36:42
Speaker 6: Senator Schumer over the summer of twenty twenty one, outlining
36:47
Speaker 6: what he could do, if they had called his bluff
36:50
Speaker 6: on that and kind of written that bill and then
36:52
Speaker 6: put it in front of him and jammed it through
36:54
Speaker 6: the house, I think they had a shot. I just
36:58
Speaker 6: think every day that went on into the fall, it
37:01
Speaker 6: got harder and harder with him. And then once inflation
37:03
Speaker 6: became real, that was just obviously his sort of excuse
37:08
Speaker 6: he was going to ride.
37:10
Speaker 2: Have you heard this rumor that he might want to
37:12
Speaker 2: run for president in 2024? Yeah, I have.
37:16
Speaker 6: I have. I've heard three things. I've heard, well, four.
37:19
Speaker 6: He's going to run for president in 24. He's going
37:21
Speaker 6: to run for governor in 24. Not run at all
37:25
Speaker 6: and retire and then run for re-election. I've heard all
37:28
Speaker 6: four of those rumors. I mean, so, yeah. I remember
37:34
Speaker 6: doing a story right before the filing deadline in 2018
37:38
Speaker 6: because Schumer was really nervous that Manchin was not going
37:42
Speaker 6: to file. And this rumor spread through the Senate. And
37:47
Speaker 6: the caucus was petrified. He was not going to file
37:49
Speaker 6: because obviously he's the only Democrat that can hold that
37:51
Speaker 6: seat out there. And they got him to run again,
37:54
Speaker 6: but he famously said, this place sucks. Uh, talking about Washington.
37:59
Speaker 6: And that was like on the record, my story. Um,
38:02
Speaker 6: and so he does this, uh, and sort of grumbles
38:06
Speaker 6: about coming back to the Senate. I want to be
38:08
Speaker 6: governor again. And I think guys that this is sort
38:12
Speaker 6: of part of what he does. I, He enjoys being
38:17
Speaker 6: in Washington. He likes being in the mix. He likes
38:20
Speaker 6: going on TV and he grumbles about it, but I
38:24
Speaker 6: think he really enjoys it. And I, if, if I,
38:27
Speaker 6: if I had the guest knowing him, I think he's
38:29
Speaker 6: going to run for reelection in 24.
38:32
Speaker 4: Yeah.
38:33
Speaker 3: Politicians tend to like to be in politics. That's what
38:35
Speaker 3: I'm in my bed too. So Jonathan, you guys.
38:38
Speaker 6: Have boats where they have like members over for parties
38:41
Speaker 6: and stuff. Like he kind of likes it, you know?
38:43
Speaker 1: Yeah.
38:43
Speaker 7: Yeah.
38:43
Speaker 3: He loves the houseboat.
38:45
Speaker 6: Totally.
38:46
Speaker 4: So you guys had this this reporting that broke early
38:50
Speaker 4: when the book came out.
38:51
Speaker 6: Yeah.
38:52
Speaker 4: Kevin McCarthy had some pretty harsh criticism for Donald Trump.
38:55
Speaker 4: McCarthy and his team denied it.
38:57
Speaker 6: Did you believe that? I mean, it's so shocking that,
38:59
Speaker 6: you know, who would have thought that Republicans secretly were
39:02
Speaker 6: fond of Donald Trump, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
39:04
Speaker 3: Who would have thought it? OK, so then you guys
39:07
Speaker 3: McCarthy's team denies it.
39:09
Speaker 4: Then you release the tapes proving that, in fact, you
39:12
Speaker 4: did say this. How do you as a journalist deal
39:16
Speaker 4: with someone like McCarthy after that, knowing he lied to
39:19
Speaker 4: your face, lied to the country? I mean, this guy
39:20
Speaker 4: could be Speaker of the House, and he's just it's.
39:22
Speaker 6: A great question. I mean, yeah, look, I mean, he, he,
39:26
Speaker 6: he lied. Uh, he did grave damage to his credibility
39:30
Speaker 6: by lying in the short term that, you know, his
39:33
Speaker 6: conference professed not to be that bothered by it. But
39:37
Speaker 6: I think you guys have been around politics long enough
39:39
Speaker 6: to know that when you get caught in a lie,
39:42
Speaker 6: just that, that nakedly, I, it does long-term damage to you.
39:47
Speaker 6: And look, It's pretty revealing that the people in the
39:51
Speaker 6: House GOP conference kind of shrugged, like, yeah, of course
39:55
Speaker 6: in private he was torturing Trump. It was kind of like, yeah,
39:56
Speaker 6: you know, we all do, right?
39:58
Speaker 3: Yeah.
39:59
Speaker 6: It wasn't really a breaking news headline for them because
40:02
Speaker 6: that's sort of their existence. But the fact he would
40:05
Speaker 6: so brazenly lie like that, look, I think it does
40:08
Speaker 6: create challenges for him down the road. Obviously, in public now,
40:14
Speaker 6: you know, his word's going to be questioned. And with
40:16
Speaker 6: Trump himself... it just makes him that much more beholden
40:20
Speaker 6: to the former president. And I think the reason that
40:23
Speaker 6: Trump didn't torture him is because Trump loves the idea
40:26
Speaker 6: of Kevin being that much more beholden to him and having, having,
40:30
Speaker 6: you know, him that much closer. And so in January,
40:33
Speaker 6: if they do get the house and Trump's got even
40:36
Speaker 6: more juice in terms of dictating both the speakership election.
40:40
Speaker 6: And then if Kevin is speaker, what happens in the house?
40:43
Speaker 6: You know?
40:43
Speaker 2: Uh, what do you think the chances are that Trump,
40:47
Speaker 2: Loses the nomination if he runs.
40:53
Speaker 6: Loses the nomination if he runs. I think today he
40:56
Speaker 6: would be a formidable candidate for president, guys, for the
40:59
Speaker 6: same reason he was in 2016, because he would have
41:02
Speaker 6: a divided field. I mean, he never got 50%, I
41:06
Speaker 6: don't think, in any of the early primaries or caucuses
41:10
Speaker 6: in 16. He was clocking pluralities in those races. And
41:15
Speaker 6: I think he's going to have the same advantage in
41:17
Speaker 6: 24 if he runs. The field will be smaller because
41:21
Speaker 6: you'll have a bunch of folks peel off who will
41:23
Speaker 6: not run if he runs. But he'll still have a
41:26
Speaker 6: divided opposition, and so he doesn't have to get 51.
41:31
Speaker 6: He cruises along with his solid third or more of
41:36
Speaker 6: the electorate, and that's enough to win a five-way caucus
41:39
Speaker 6: or primary, right?
41:41
Speaker 4: Yeah, he did lose to Ted Cruz in that old
41:43
Speaker 4: Iowa caucus, too.
41:46
Speaker 3: It's embarrassing.
41:47
Speaker 2: Right.
41:47
Speaker 6: He lost. He lost to Cruz in Iowa. And then
41:50
Speaker 6: after that, he mostly won. He lost Wisconsin, but he
41:52
Speaker 6: mostly won. But he was winning with, you know, 34,
41:55
Speaker 6: 36 kind of thing. Right.
41:57
Speaker 7: Yeah.
41:58
Speaker 6: And I just don't see a scenario where the non-Trump
42:01
Speaker 6: candidates rally around one Trump alternative.
42:04
Speaker 7: Right.
42:04
Speaker 6: Because you'll have you'll have like the hardcore anti-Trumper and
42:08
Speaker 6: you'll have the more kind of semi anti-Trumper. Right.
42:10
Speaker 7: So.
42:12
Speaker 3: Yeah.
42:12
Speaker 4: I mean, what comes through in the book, you know,
42:14
Speaker 4: people did speak very freely to you guys and it's
42:16
Speaker 4: worth reading just for the kind of ex post facto. Like,
42:19
Speaker 4: for example, there was this infamous quote from November 9th,
42:23
Speaker 4: 2020 in the Washington Post where someone said, what's the
42:26
Speaker 4: downside for humoring a little bit, this little bit of
42:29
Speaker 4: time about the results of the election. I'm a hundred
42:31
Speaker 4: percent certain after reading your book that it was Lindsey Graham.
42:34
Speaker 4: I know you can't confirm that because that's a different newspaper,
42:36
Speaker 4: but call Bezos and get him to confirm it. But
42:38
Speaker 4: the other thing that's in there, it's like, you know,
42:40
Speaker 4: Mitch McConnell, McConnell's been all over the place with Trump.
42:45
Speaker 4: Clearly he hates his guts, but he's recently said he'd
42:48
Speaker 4: vote for him. But you report that Mitch McConnell during
42:52
Speaker 4: the transition period was calling Trump national security officials and
42:55
Speaker 4: asking them to remain in their jobs to fend off
42:58
Speaker 4: a constitutional crisis, but then he didn't vote to impeach.
43:03
Speaker 4: Is it possible to get into the mind of Mitch
43:04
Speaker 4: McConnell and how you can hold those two thoughts at once.
43:08
Speaker 4: I won't impeach this guy, but I'm calling Gina Haspel,
43:11
Speaker 4: the CIA director, saying, please, God, don't leave in case
43:13
Speaker 4: this man tries to stage a coup. I can't understand that.
43:15
Speaker 6: So, Tommy, I'm amazed that nobody else has picked this
43:18
Speaker 6: up from the book, but we have this scene right
43:20
Speaker 6: after the election where McConnell summons the head of the CIA,
43:25
Speaker 6: Gina Haspel, to come to his suite in the Capitol,
43:28
Speaker 6: McConnell's office in the Capitol. entirely so that the photographers
43:32
Speaker 6: who were there in the Capitol could take the picture
43:35
Speaker 6: of her coming in there because McConnell wanted to offer
43:38
Speaker 6: her a kind of symbolic vote of confidence to keep
43:42
Speaker 6: her in office during those crazy days after the election.
43:46
Speaker 6: That's a small sort of anecdote in the book, but
43:50
Speaker 6: I think it's really revealing as to how concerned kind
43:54
Speaker 6: of old guard Republicans were about Trump's mindset after the
43:58
Speaker 6: election and just how serious they were taking this effort
44:03
Speaker 6: that he was obviously leading to overturn the election. Now,
44:06
Speaker 6: let's be honest. It wasn't so much so that they
44:09
Speaker 6: were going to confront Trump about it in public because
44:12
Speaker 6: they were more worried about keeping those two seats in
44:15
Speaker 6: Georgia in January than about Trump doing anything to overturn
44:18
Speaker 6: the election. And I think the reason for that is
44:22
Speaker 6: precisely the quote that you just cited. And I have
44:25
Speaker 6: to confess, I don't know who said that. But there's
44:28
Speaker 6: always this challenge with Trump. And by the way, it's
44:32
Speaker 6: not just with Republicans, some Democrats too. How seriously do
44:36
Speaker 6: we take this guy? Because yeah, some of the stuff
44:39
Speaker 6: he's doing is kind of scary and would be authoritarian.
44:42
Speaker 6: But at the same time, they see him, they deal
44:44
Speaker 6: with him, and he's kind of this seemingly buffoonish, kind
44:48
Speaker 6: of hapless figure. And how scary could he be? This
44:51
Speaker 6: was the conundrum that we sort of capture in this
44:53
Speaker 6: book for time and time again. And after the election,
45:00
Speaker 6: they're still not taking it seriously enough. Oh, it's my
45:03
Speaker 6: pillow guy at the White House. He's a joker. You know,
45:07
Speaker 6: come on. What kind of a coup can this actually be?
45:10
Speaker 6: And guys, I don't think it's until the Capitol itself's
45:13
Speaker 6: overrun on January 6th that a lot of people in
45:16
Speaker 6: the Republican Party finally sobered up to the threat that
45:20
Speaker 6: Trump presented.
45:22
Speaker 2: So, I mean, this is a theme throughout the book,
45:24
Speaker 2: the theme of like fear. And, you know, at one
45:27
Speaker 2: point you guys say that, you know, there's lawmakers in
45:30
Speaker 2: both parties who basically are afraid that there's more political
45:34
Speaker 2: violence to come and they don't say it publicly. They
45:36
Speaker 2: say it to you guys, they say to each other,
45:38
Speaker 2: but they're reluctant to talk about it in public. So
45:40
Speaker 2: here's like a personal question. Like, I know you guys
45:44
Speaker 2: are supposed to be objective. You're not supposed to have
45:47
Speaker 2: real feelings about things, right? You're New York Times reporters.
45:49
Speaker 4: Yeah.
45:51
Speaker 2: But, you know, you're also members of the press. The
45:53
Speaker 2: press has been sort of under assault the last couple
45:55
Speaker 2: of years, as are many of our institutions. Like, how
45:58
Speaker 2: afraid are you personally about the state of democracy?
46:02
Speaker 6: And not just by Dan Pfeiffer, by the way. I
46:09
Speaker 6: had to get an attack on Pfeiffer at some point
46:10
Speaker 6: during the program.
46:11
Speaker 3: That's great.
46:12
Speaker 6: We love Dan.
46:13
Speaker 2: Test to see if he listens to the episode.
46:16
Speaker 7: So.
46:18
Speaker 6: I'm really concerned. I think like we came away from
46:21
Speaker 6: this book sobered about the sort of short to medium
46:24
Speaker 6: term prognosis for American democracy. There's not a lot of
46:27
Speaker 6: good news to find. And I think, you know, talking
46:31
Speaker 6: about this book the last few weeks, we get this
46:34
Speaker 6: question a lot from people just like give us give
46:36
Speaker 6: us some good news. Like what's the upside here? I
46:39
Speaker 6: just don't see a scenario where the fever breaks. And
46:43
Speaker 6: there's a reason why we call the book, This Will
46:45
Speaker 6: Not Pass. And I'm not just doing a shameless plug
46:49
Speaker 6: for the book title. Honestly, I'm not. This is an
46:53
Speaker 6: ongoing challenge. And we had to end the book somewhere, obviously.
46:58
Speaker 6: And so we basically did a sort of two-year account
47:01
Speaker 6: of 20 and 21. So we kind of ended at
47:03
Speaker 6: the start of 22. But It's not easy to know
47:08
Speaker 6: where to end because this is ongoing. I mean, you
47:11
Speaker 6: sort of see what happened in Buffalo over the weekend.
47:14
Speaker 6: We're living in this extraordinarily toxic moment in American politics,
47:20
Speaker 6: and I just don't see a scenario where things are
47:23
Speaker 6: going to turn around. Guys, think about COVID for a minute.
47:26
Speaker 6: I mean, not even for weeks did that bring the
47:30
Speaker 6: country together. A once-in-a-century pandemic you would think would have
47:34
Speaker 6: some rallying effect on the American people. everybody's in it together.
47:39
Speaker 6: We're all feeling the pain here. But, you know, that
47:42
Speaker 6: just drove people further to their corners. It deepened the
47:45
Speaker 6: silos in this country. So I just don't have a
47:49
Speaker 6: lot of sort of happy news to offer about the challenges.
47:52
Speaker 6: And I do have a lot of concerns about the
47:56
Speaker 6: assault on institutions, including the press. You know, I look
47:59
Speaker 6: at Pennsylvania over the weekend before the primary major candidates,
48:04
Speaker 6: like not including the press at their events. Um, it
48:07
Speaker 6: just for arbitrary reasons. So it's, it's really disturbing. And, um,
48:12
Speaker 6: I just said one more thing, spending a lot of
48:14
Speaker 6: time in the Capitol, our Bureau in DC has basically
48:17
Speaker 6: been closed down for much of COVID. And, um, because
48:21
Speaker 6: the book, uh, as well, I spent a lot of
48:23
Speaker 6: time in the Capitol. You guys have been there over
48:26
Speaker 6: the years too. I cannot begin to capture and people
48:29
Speaker 6: who work there and listen to this podcast will appreciate this. These,
48:34
Speaker 6: this sort of, um, the menace in the air, the
48:38
Speaker 6: feeling that January 6th wasn't the end, that it was
48:42
Speaker 6: not a culmination, but that it was only kind of
48:45
Speaker 6: one more grim milestone on the way to more political violence.
48:50
Speaker 6: And every time there's one of these foiled attacks or
48:55
Speaker 6: uncertain vehicle near the Capitol, people just get really nervous again.
48:58
Speaker 6: And what's even more depressing, guys, is that within the
49:02
Speaker 6: body itself, in the House, especially more than the Senate,
49:06
Speaker 6: There's such mistrust now between the two parties and not like, oh,
49:10
Speaker 6: they're going to hurt me on this bill. They're going
49:12
Speaker 6: to double cross me in committee. But more like we
49:14
Speaker 6: could have a fistfight on the House floor like tomorrow.
49:17
Speaker 6: I mean, it's wild.
49:21
Speaker 3: You guys really do.
49:21
Speaker 4: I mean, I think your personal anxiety about the future
49:24
Speaker 4: of democracy comes through in the introduction of the foreword.
49:27
Speaker 4: But also that sense of menace comes through when you
49:29
Speaker 4: talk about how Congresswoman Abigail Spanberger, former CIA officer, moderate
49:34
Speaker 4: from Virginia, called AOC– on January 6th, say, hey, wear
49:41
Speaker 4: sneakers so you're mobile. Sorry, 5th, wear sneakers so you're mobile.
49:44
Speaker 4: Don't dress like you. Be low key because I'm worried
49:47
Speaker 4: you're going to be a target. I mean, that is one, frightening. Two,
49:51
Speaker 4: pretty amazing prescience. And it makes you wonder about all
49:54
Speaker 4: the Capitol policing issues, given that a member of Congress
49:59
Speaker 4: was thinking like that.
50:01
Speaker 6: Yeah. And These two Democratic members, the famed class of 2018,
50:05
Speaker 6: who could not be more different ideologically, you know, as
50:11
Speaker 6: far on the spectrum as you can be and still
50:13
Speaker 6: be on the same caucus. But Spanberger, having been in
50:16
Speaker 6: the agency, knows that AOC is the most high-profile member
50:21
Speaker 6: of the House Democratic class of 2018, knows that people
50:24
Speaker 6: are going to be targeting her potentially, and so does
50:27
Speaker 6: give her that heads up based upon her own national
50:29
Speaker 6: security background. It's a really fascinating... And then, you know,
50:34
Speaker 6: also we have that the leadership of the House Democrats
50:39
Speaker 6: were telling members, you know, don't walk outside. Take the
50:41
Speaker 6: tunnels under the Capitol buildings. Don't wear your member pins.
50:47
Speaker 6: It was it was fascinating. And then Anna Eshoo told us,
50:51
Speaker 6: the lawmaker from California said, said that going to the
50:56
Speaker 6: Capitol on January 6th that morning, it was sort of
51:00
Speaker 6: eerie and she felt like it was that scene from
51:02
Speaker 6: The Godfather where he's rolling up to the toll booth.
51:07
Speaker 6: And so it was just the sort of, you could
51:10
Speaker 6: sort of feel it in the air. There were two lawmakers,
51:13
Speaker 6: Jason Crow from Colorado, Andy Kim from New Jersey. Kim
51:16
Speaker 6: served in the State Department in Afghanistan and Jason Crow
51:20
Speaker 6: is a former Army Ranger. Both of them sent their
51:23
Speaker 6: wives home before January 6th and said, don't stay for
51:27
Speaker 6: the swearing in. It's not worth it. Something could go
51:30
Speaker 6: down here. So all these members are sensing something in
51:34
Speaker 6: the air in the days before the 6th. And I'll
51:37
Speaker 6: just tell you guys my experience. I was in Georgia
51:40
Speaker 6: on the 5th covering what was supposed to be the
51:42
Speaker 6: big story, those two Senate runoffs. But I knew the
51:45
Speaker 6: 6th was going to be a moment to witness. I
51:47
Speaker 6: caught the last flight from Atlanta back to D.C. on
51:50
Speaker 6: the night of the 5th. And I'm on the plane
51:53
Speaker 6: I think it was Delta. They're bringing on not just
51:57
Speaker 6: like flight attendants, but like Delta security staff before the
52:00
Speaker 6: flight even takes off and walking down the aisle and
52:03
Speaker 6: telling folks, put your mask on, settle down, because the
52:07
Speaker 6: entire plane was full of people going to the rally
52:10
Speaker 6: on the 6th. And so I'm thinking to myself, I
52:14
Speaker 6: don't usually see this kind of security before a plane
52:16
Speaker 6: takes off and this is a pretty rowdy crowd. So
52:20
Speaker 6: you could sort of feel in the hours ahead of
52:23
Speaker 6: the six that something was going to happen.
52:26
Speaker 4: Last thing, because I just can't resist a chance to
52:28
Speaker 4: make fun of Jared Kushner. You report on page 91
52:32
Speaker 4: for those who are looking for it.
52:33
Speaker 6: On a lighter note!
52:34
Speaker 4: That Jared, yeah, really, that Jared Kushner personally worked to
52:38
Speaker 4: recruit a campaign manager for Kanye West because Jared thought
52:42
Speaker 4: it would help siphon black voters away from Biden. West
52:45
Speaker 4: ultimately won 71,000 votes. How much time do you think
52:49
Speaker 4: Jared spent on this dumb fucking scheme while he was
52:52
Speaker 4: playing shadow secretary of state and setting up his future
52:55
Speaker 4: $ 2 billion investment fund that is seeded entirely with Saudi dollars?
53:00
Speaker 6: And also working on the government payroll, I should add.
53:03
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
53:06
Speaker 6: I know for a fact he spent a lot of
53:07
Speaker 6: time on it. Look, I think he, you know, he,
53:10
Speaker 6: like his father-in-law is a great believer in the power
53:12
Speaker 6: of celebrity and, came to the conclusion that a prominent
53:17
Speaker 6: African-American celebrity could somehow be like the secret sauce that
53:23
Speaker 6: like they needed to get just enough votes sort of
53:27
Speaker 6: siphoned away from Biden to give them a chance in
53:30
Speaker 6: a lot of swing states, which, you know, frankly tells
53:33
Speaker 6: you a lot about how they view black voters. But
53:36
Speaker 6: also like, he's just like the most crude political analysis
53:42
Speaker 6: given both Kanye's like lack of knowledge of, events and
53:46
Speaker 6: obviously like engagement at all in public life. But it
53:50
Speaker 6: does sort of bring you to the White House and
53:53
Speaker 6: sort of like what these guys were like, especially going
53:56
Speaker 6: into 2020. You know, we talk about this at great
53:59
Speaker 6: length in the book. Everything was calculated upon how it
54:06
Speaker 6: could shape the election and whether it was good for Trump.
54:10
Speaker 6: And look, let's not be naive. Like, Most presidents are political.
54:14
Speaker 6: They make decisions in part based upon politics. Even the
54:17
Speaker 6: one you guys worked for occasionally did that. But it's
54:20
Speaker 6: almost cartoonish. Trump's talking to these governors who were just
54:25
Speaker 6: desperate for help during COVID. And these governors are trying
54:28
Speaker 6: to get PPE. And they're like having to call Trump himself.
54:32
Speaker 6: And he says literally to Ned Lamont, the governor of Connecticut,
54:35
Speaker 6: ask me nicely.
54:35
Speaker 4: Yeah. As you point out in the book, it's not
54:39
Speaker 4: like George W. Bush was like, I'm sorry, we're not
54:41
Speaker 4: going to help New York after 9-11. They're not going
54:42
Speaker 4: to vote for me.
54:43
Speaker 6: That's right. And this is what makes Trump different, is
54:46
Speaker 6: that every president, at least rhetorically, has tried to unify
54:51
Speaker 6: the country and tried to be a president for all Americans.
54:54
Speaker 6: And Trump never even fainted toward that. There was never
54:58
Speaker 6: any mystery about who he was representing because he said
55:01
Speaker 6: it out loud. Right. And by the way, that's one
55:04
Speaker 6: of the challenges, guys, about doing a book that involves
55:06
Speaker 6: Trump is that he says everything out loud. So it's
55:09
Speaker 6: not like there's tons of secrets about Trump. But that's
55:13
Speaker 6: one of the reasons why I think we wanted to
55:14
Speaker 6: do the book the way that we did is like
55:17
Speaker 6: a more comprehensive account of this period of political crisis
55:21
Speaker 6: in America. Yes, Trump, but also Biden. Yes, the White House,
55:25
Speaker 6: but also Congress. Yes, Washington, but also governors, mayors. Because
55:30
Speaker 6: like the last two years, has been this extraordinarily tumultuous time.
55:35
Speaker 6: And not just in the West Wing, right? It was
55:37
Speaker 6: felt in the House, the Senate, with governors, with mayors
55:41
Speaker 6: all over the country. And so we want to sort
55:43
Speaker 6: of capture that in the most rich, comprehensive way possible.
55:46
Speaker 6: So that's what we try to do.
55:47
Speaker 2: Well, it's an incredibly well-reported book. Terrifying at times, but
55:51
Speaker 2: a very, very good first draft of history. Jonathan Martin,
55:55
Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining Pod Save America. The
55:57
Speaker 2: book is This Will Not Pass by Jonathan Martin and
55:59
Speaker 2: Alex Burns. It's now a bestseller.
56:01
Speaker 6: Read it.
56:01
Speaker 3: Hate read it.
56:02
Speaker 6: Whatever.
56:02
Speaker 3: Trigger yourself. Don't buy one for your friends. Exactly.
56:05
Speaker 2: Perfect.
56:06
Speaker 3: Great book.
56:07
Speaker 6: John, Tommy. Thanks guys.
56:08
Speaker 3: Thank you.
56:09
Speaker 2: All right. That's our show for today. Thanks again to
56:17
Speaker 2: Jonathan Martin for joining us. Uh, we'll talk to you
56:19
Speaker 2: later this week. Uh, and now here's a clip from
56:23
Speaker 2: today's what a day, uh, you'll be hearing from some
56:25
Speaker 2: activists and protesters who were at the rally in Los
56:28
Speaker 2: Angeles this Saturday.
56:35
Speaker 1: I am here marching for my granddaughters. Sorry if I
56:39
Speaker 1: get emotional.
56:40
Speaker 6: Oh my God, I just feel like we're going back
56:42
Speaker 6: in time, and this would be devastating for my granddaughters.
56:47
Speaker 5: My mom and my grandparents fought for this, and I
56:49
Speaker 5: just think that if they're going to try to take
56:51
Speaker 5: that right away from me, that I should try to.
56:53
Speaker 2: You know, I have a six-year-old daughter here who may
56:57
Speaker 2: someday herself want an abortion, and I want her to
56:59
Speaker 2: have that right. More genders than just women need abortions,
57:03
Speaker 2: including gender expansive and trans men, so we want to
57:06
Speaker 2: show up for all people who need abortion.
57:14
Speaker 5: I'm a family physician, and it really concerns me about
57:16
Speaker 5: the safety and health of my patients, that if Roe v.
57:20
Speaker 5: Wade is overturned, that it will result in unnecessary deaths
57:24
Speaker 5: and harm. I'm here today as a postpartum depression survivor
57:29
Speaker 5: who wants better opportunities and better access for my black
57:33
Speaker 5: daughter to care, whatever that care looks like for them.
57:36
Speaker 2: I don't love abortion.
57:37
Speaker 7: I don't think that's a great thing, but the idea
57:39
Speaker 7: that the government should be in the doctor's office with
57:43
Speaker 7: me and my doctor deciding what's going on is not okay.
57:47
Speaker 7: I'm here today because a long time ago a friend
57:51
Speaker 7: of mine nearly died from a botched abortion. I rushed
57:55
Speaker 7: there and had to rush her immediately to the hospital
57:59
Speaker 7: where if not she would have died. So I'm here
58:03
Speaker 7: to make sure that that doesn't happen to anybody else.
58:10
Speaker 2: I think this is a much bigger issue even than
58:12
Speaker 2: just Roe.
58:13
Speaker 5: The potential of not being able to marry the wife
58:15
Speaker 5: of my dreams, potentially not having access to birth control.
58:19
Speaker 6: If I'm raped.
58:20
Speaker 7: And what it could happen to other groups that have
58:22
Speaker 7: gained some rights in the past 50 years.
58:26
Speaker 6: And if this is a precedent, this is horrible.
58:32
Speaker 7: I have been marching for women's rights to health care
58:36
Speaker 7: and abortion. since the 80s, and I'm really tired of this,
58:39
Speaker 7: which is why my sign says, enough is enough.
58:42
Speaker 6: The more people show up, the more that our voice
58:44
Speaker 6: is heard.
58:45
Speaker 1: Hopefully, the voice will get louder, and so bullshit like
58:49
Speaker 1: this doesn't keep happening.
58:51
Speaker 2: As my sign says, I'd rather be doing all these things.
58:54
Speaker 5: I'd rather be going to Farmer's Market, masturbating, taking a nap,
58:59
Speaker 5: but we're here.
59:00
Speaker 2: We won't stop.
59:01
Speaker 4: Yeah!
59:21
Speaker 2: Hot Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
59:24
Speaker 2: producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Andy Gardner-Bernstein.
59:28
Speaker 2: Our producer is Haley Muse, and Olivia Martinez is our
59:31
Speaker 2: associate producer. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle
59:35
Speaker 2: Seglin and Charlotte Landis sound engineer the show. Thanks to
59:37
Speaker 2: Tanya Sominator, Sandy Gerrard, Hallie Kiefer, Ari Schwartz, Andy Taft,
59:41
Speaker 2: and Justine Howe for production support. And to our digital team,
59:45
Speaker 2: Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim, and Amelia Montooth. Our
59:49
Speaker 2: episodes are uploaded as videos at youtube.com slash crookedmedia.