Latest / Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast / Issue 390: Andor: Season One - Aldhani

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Issue 390: Andor: Season One - Aldhani · Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast

0:02
Speaker 1: Welcome to the ned Palty.
0:06
Speaker 2: Hi.
0:06
Speaker 3: This is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
0:10
Speaker 3: The Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
0:14
Speaker 3: are listening to aggressive negotiations.
0:23
Speaker 1: Welcome back to aggressive negotiations coming at you all live
0:27
Speaker 1: from Al Donnie and John. John, can you stop playing
0:32
Speaker 1: with the livestock. We've got a show to do. I
0:35
Speaker 1: am just one of your hosts here Matthew rushing and
0:37
Speaker 1: with me every single week is none other than Jedi
0:42
Speaker 1: Master super Shepherd John Mills.
0:46
Speaker 2: You know, I'm just mad because I misheard you. I
0:50
Speaker 2: thought you said al dente and I was gonna have
0:52
Speaker 2: a great meal, but instead here I am in the
0:54
Speaker 2: middle of nowhere. Eaton was his beef jerky? Come on, man,
0:58
Speaker 2: I feel betrayed. This is right, not right at all.
1:01
Speaker 1: You know, I will say though, Al Donnie mead is delicious,
1:06
Speaker 1: so just take some more of that.
1:08
Speaker 2: John, Well, you know it's it's the mossy Highlands That's
1:11
Speaker 2: what really gives it its flavor vicious. Yes, oh man.
1:14
Speaker 1: Well, we are going to be continuing with our rewatch
1:18
Speaker 1: of and Or season one as we prepare for season two.
1:21
Speaker 1: But before we do that, give us a star rating.
1:24
Speaker 1: Review over on Apple Podcasts, or give us a star
1:27
Speaker 1: rating on Spotify. All of those things really help the show. Plus,
1:32
Speaker 1: if you really also like what we do, you know,
1:35
Speaker 1: share the show with your friends, you know, send it
1:37
Speaker 1: to them on social media, send it to them in
1:41
Speaker 1: an email, you know, text them episodes that you're like,
1:45
Speaker 1: you have to listen to these weirdos doing this show.
1:49
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, do it so, John al Donnie. The
1:55
Speaker 1: episode Al Donnie picks up right where we left off,
1:58
Speaker 1: basically with Luthen taking Cassian to this planet and recruiting
2:04
Speaker 1: him for this mission. In fact, you know, we find
2:07
Speaker 1: out that his interest in Cassian really had nothing to
2:13
Speaker 1: do with this StarPath log. It really had to do
2:18
Speaker 1: with him, and it's because of his his history. And
2:25
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the things that it was
2:27
Speaker 1: really interesting to me in watching this because you know,
2:29
Speaker 1: we know this takes place about five years before the
2:34
Speaker 1: Battle of Yavin, and so we get this sense that
2:41
Speaker 1: in this this this episode really I think does well
2:44
Speaker 1: is that it gives us the sense is that the
2:47
Speaker 1: rebellion is really starting to pick up steam behind the
2:50
Speaker 1: scenes to try and create a more organized resistance to
2:55
Speaker 1: the Empire.
2:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that the the character of Luthen first
3:02
Speaker 2: and foremost, I think scars Guard is again he's such
3:07
Speaker 2: a fantastic actor. He brings something to everything that he's in.
3:12
Speaker 2: I will sing his praises to the end of time.
3:17
Speaker 2: But what the show does really well here with this episode,
3:21
Speaker 2: especially in the beginning, is outlining that behind the scenes
3:27
Speaker 2: thing that you're talking about. He's the mystery figure who
3:30
Speaker 2: knows everything about Indor already he knows him. There's no
3:34
Speaker 2: point in lying to him because he keeps showing Cassian
3:39
Speaker 2: that there is a network simply by the fact that
3:41
Speaker 2: he knows so much about it. There's no way he's
3:44
Speaker 2: one person doing all of this, that he's a piece
3:47
Speaker 2: of the puzzle. And also seeing the ship that he's
3:52
Speaker 2: in gives you a real sense that, oh and he's
3:54
Speaker 2: got resources too. So yes, that's a whole thing. And
4:00
Speaker 2: what I found interesting about it, honestly, and this a
4:05
Speaker 2: leap to the rest of the episode. Here is you
4:07
Speaker 2: have mon Mathma, who's a senator and obviously wealthy, and
4:13
Speaker 2: you have Luthan who runs his shop as a front
4:16
Speaker 2: but obviously you know there's enough cash who knows what
4:19
Speaker 2: his specific story is. By this point. You know, we'll
4:23
Speaker 2: find out more about him as the show goes on.
4:25
Speaker 2: I'm just staying here containing the episode. But it really
4:29
Speaker 2: is interesting because right now I'm reading a book about
4:31
Speaker 2: the French Revolution and it's a really exhaustive book. I
4:37
Speaker 2: highly recommend it, but it's taking me forever to finish
4:40
Speaker 2: it because it is dense. But all that to say,
4:44
Speaker 2: what's interesting is it's very easy for a show like
4:50
Speaker 2: this or any work that deals with a revolutionary movement
4:55
Speaker 2: to portray everybody as you know, humble dirt farmers or
4:59
Speaker 2: something like that. I find it very interesting that this episode,
5:03
Speaker 2: once we have left Paris, we now see that this
5:08
Speaker 2: is at every social strata, that there are people in
5:12
Speaker 2: every echelon of society. And the reason I mentioned the
5:15
Speaker 2: book about the French Revolution is it calls that out.
5:17
Speaker 2: Is it's like, oh, there were people in the aristocracy
5:20
Speaker 2: who were in the early days of the revolution, they
5:24
Speaker 2: were moving things forward that without them things wouldn't have
5:27
Speaker 2: happened in certain ways. And so I find it very
5:30
Speaker 2: interesting and very very good writing on the part of
5:33
Speaker 2: this show to illustrate all of the different social strata
5:39
Speaker 2: that need to come together in order for a thing
5:41
Speaker 2: to happen. There's no and Or saying you know, you
5:45
Speaker 2: have too much money, or Luthan saying you're too poor
5:48
Speaker 2: or anything like that. It's everybody recognizing everybody has to
5:51
Speaker 2: work together to get something done. Yeah.
5:54
Speaker 1: I like the way you said that because one of
5:57
Speaker 1: the things that I was interested in your thoughts about
6:00
Speaker 1: the episode. You know, the first the first three episodes
6:05
Speaker 1: are are clearly about setting up the character of and
6:08
Speaker 1: Or right his past, his present so that we can
6:13
Speaker 1: chart his future. And now this episode begins something that
6:19
Speaker 1: will continue throughout the rest of the season. Is this
6:22
Speaker 1: inner play then between the different storylines and the different
6:26
Speaker 1: characters that we're going to follow. So characters like Luthan,
6:30
Speaker 1: characters like and Or correspond Mathma. We will also again,
6:35
Speaker 1: you know, see characters like Bicks again and then giving
6:44
Speaker 1: us the behind the scenes of you know, Dedra at
6:50
Speaker 1: the Imperial Security Bureau. And so all of these stories
6:55
Speaker 1: really kind of playing together then. And so I wanted
6:58
Speaker 1: to ask you, because you know, we really branch out
7:01
Speaker 1: now in this episode and start interweaving all these stories,
7:06
Speaker 1: do you feel like that they do that? Well? Then
7:11
Speaker 1: here in this episode to kind of google clue you
7:14
Speaker 1: in to all these other characters, but that it is
7:17
Speaker 1: actually like well paced, because I know that's obviously something
7:22
Speaker 1: you kind of had a little bit of a frustration
7:23
Speaker 1: with as we talked about in our first episode.
7:26
Speaker 2: Yes, I think that the pacing issues essentially go away
7:31
Speaker 2: with this show. Everything clicked, Everything was in the right
7:35
Speaker 2: amount of time for everything. Maybe that, you know, if
7:38
Speaker 2: I want to quibble, maybe there's stuff here or there
7:40
Speaker 2: that I think could have been tightened, But I was
7:44
Speaker 2: invested and engaged in each scene that was happening, and
7:51
Speaker 2: everything breathed right, and everything more importantly juxtaposed properly. It
7:57
Speaker 2: felt like there were multiple plot lines going and they
8:01
Speaker 2: were given equal weight. I will actually reference Lucas and say,
8:07
Speaker 2: for instance, if you look at something like American Graffiti,
8:10
Speaker 2: there are all of these competing storylines, but you never
8:13
Speaker 2: feel cheated, and you never feel like you stay with
8:16
Speaker 2: one too long. This episode has that type of rhythm
8:21
Speaker 2: to it. I never feel like I'm somewhere for too long,
8:24
Speaker 2: and I never feel like I'm cheated on any storyline.
8:28
Speaker 2: In fact, though it's not to its detriment at all,
8:35
Speaker 2: But man, I really loved the ISB stuff. I know
8:41
Speaker 2: everybody when the prequels came out, that's older like me
8:44
Speaker 2: was all like, oh, too much bureaucricy in the Senate
8:46
Speaker 2: and stuff like that. I live for that stuff. I
8:50
Speaker 2: love that stuff. And seeing the head of the ISB,
8:54
Speaker 2: or at least that section of it or whatever, seeing
8:57
Speaker 2: this is this brass tacks, no nonsense due and seeing
9:00
Speaker 2: the internal politics and the way everything works out. I
9:03
Speaker 2: suddenly saw something where I'm like, oh, I see a
9:06
Speaker 2: functional organization here, and that was I think that's the
9:11
Speaker 2: thing that really took off about the show for me
9:13
Speaker 2: was I was like, I believe that this empire can
9:16
Speaker 2: exist right now, Like I believe in this mechanism.
9:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, I completely agree with you. It's funny you went
9:23
Speaker 1: right to that because it was one of the things
9:25
Speaker 1: I was I was going to key in on was
9:28
Speaker 1: the ISB. And I like the way that you put
9:33
Speaker 1: that in that you can understand how this is a
9:36
Speaker 1: functional bureaucracy. But I think one of the ways that
9:40
Speaker 1: I love this is that, you know, I don't think
9:44
Speaker 1: Tony Gilroy has watched you know, all of the animated
9:49
Speaker 1: stuff and all the things we've gotten about, you know,
9:53
Speaker 1: then the behind the scenes of the ISB and something
9:57
Speaker 1: like rebels or what we got in Bad Batch and
10:01
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff, right, And yet this really
10:05
Speaker 1: seems to fit within that mold of watching all of
10:08
Speaker 1: these guys and women who are sitting around this table, right,
10:14
Speaker 1: and they are all vying for power in this organization.
10:19
Speaker 1: And so the guy at the head of this organization, though,
10:22
Speaker 1: doesn't really care about all of their political games. He's
10:25
Speaker 1: just trying to get the job done, right. And that's
10:28
Speaker 1: what's kind of fascinating is to see the way in
10:32
Speaker 1: which and this is something I'll say something fairly interesting
10:38
Speaker 1: in this. He feels a lot like the Throng type
10:43
Speaker 1: of guy, not the same type of level of intelligence, right,
10:47
Speaker 1: but it's the no nonsense. We're here to get the
10:51
Speaker 1: job done. I'm not here to play politics. I'm here
10:54
Speaker 1: to make sure that we're rooting out the insurgents, that
10:57
Speaker 1: we're keeping this empire safe, that we're doing the job
11:02
Speaker 1: we were put here to do. I'm not here to
11:04
Speaker 1: play your stupid games, you know, because you know you
11:08
Speaker 1: play stupid games, you win stupid prizes, and that's not
11:11
Speaker 1: what I'm here for. And so I really appreciate that
11:15
Speaker 1: about this, and the most interesting part of this too,
11:18
Speaker 1: is that as we're introduced into Deirdre as a character,
11:22
Speaker 1: one of the fascinating parts about this is that you
11:26
Speaker 1: get the sense that this is also kind of her
11:30
Speaker 1: thought process because the reason that she's she's focused on
11:34
Speaker 1: her career, but the same time, she's actually focused on
11:38
Speaker 1: trying to put pieces together that she sees forming in
11:41
Speaker 1: a puzzle in her mind. And she kind of seems
11:47
Speaker 1: to be the only one really doing that at this moment,
11:50
Speaker 1: with this idea of this thing being stolen from this section,
11:52
Speaker 1: and she's starting to do that, and I find that
11:55
Speaker 1: really interesting because it makes her a very compelling character
11:59
Speaker 1: because now she's on a hunt, right and she's on
12:05
Speaker 1: a hunt to which as a character, she might not
12:11
Speaker 1: be supported in doing this, but it's for the Empire's
12:16
Speaker 1: point of view, this is actually the right thing to do.
12:19
Speaker 1: And so that's what I find really interesting. And like
12:22
Speaker 1: you said too, this like it's not a long episode,
12:27
Speaker 1: and yet it's so tightly written with these different storylines
12:32
Speaker 1: that I feel like I kind of immediately know her
12:34
Speaker 1: as a character, even though we don't spend tons of
12:37
Speaker 1: time with her as a character.
12:39
Speaker 2: The performance is fantastic. This actress, forgive me I forget
12:44
Speaker 2: her name right now. I don't always retain or actress
12:46
Speaker 2: names particularly well. At first, I think she's phenomenal, she's
12:52
Speaker 2: terrific at giving expressions that you can key off of
12:55
Speaker 2: and stuff like that. But just to pile on even
12:58
Speaker 2: more about the ISP stuff, and I think it just
13:00
Speaker 2: sort of proves how fascinating the ICB stuff is. Is
13:06
Speaker 2: that leader that we've both talked about that we're fixated on.
13:09
Speaker 2: He illustrates another big problem, whether it's a company, whether
13:14
Speaker 2: it's a bureaucracy, whether whatever organization it is, is that
13:18
Speaker 2: guy you already know from this one episode. If that
13:22
Speaker 2: guy is gone, pandemonium, these people will just turn it
13:27
Speaker 2: into Game of Thrones and be at each other's throats
13:31
Speaker 2: and the only thing keeping them under control is him. Yeah,
13:34
Speaker 2: And that's the problem with the empire itself too, is
13:38
Speaker 2: once the strong leader is gone, it'll all fall apart.
13:42
Speaker 2: And so you see the importance of legacy, which is
13:45
Speaker 2: why I think it's great that he calls out Dedre
13:48
Speaker 2: when he doesn't give her her way, and he says,
13:51
Speaker 2: settle down. You were brought here because I see you
13:55
Speaker 2: as the type of person I need to be here
13:58
Speaker 2: right now. And shows that he's even got the thought
14:01
Speaker 2: toward I'm not going to live forever. I need somebody
14:04
Speaker 2: that's going to come behind me, and whether it's you
14:06
Speaker 2: or somebody else, I need to know that you all
14:09
Speaker 2: will get it done when I'm gone. But that strong
14:13
Speaker 2: personality he trips and falls down the stairs, ISP's going
14:17
Speaker 2: to fall apart. Yeah, at least partially. The one thing
14:21
Speaker 2: that I go back and forth on I want to
14:23
Speaker 2: throw this to you is with Dedre. I'm in a
14:29
Speaker 2: glad not glad sense of somebody who went through the
14:32
Speaker 2: nineties in that franchise. Lore would almost dictate, well, you
14:38
Speaker 2: brought back throw on, why wouldn't you just make her
14:41
Speaker 2: isan Isard or Iard right ice heart from the ISB
14:48
Speaker 2: in the nineties books. But I'm not mad about it,
14:51
Speaker 2: you know, like it doesn't irritate me. I'm like, ah,
14:53
Speaker 2: that would have been a neat one. At least give
14:55
Speaker 2: her two different colored eyes or something like that as
14:57
Speaker 2: a nod. Do you think that that? Do you wish
15:01
Speaker 2: they'd done that? Is there any part of you that's
15:03
Speaker 2: like I wish it had been I Sard?
15:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it could have been a really interesting
15:08
Speaker 1: thing to do and give you the opportunity to explore
15:15
Speaker 1: that character in a new way, and you know, like
15:19
Speaker 1: you know, Felony and George did with anything from the
15:23
Speaker 1: old EU, they just they took it and then they
15:26
Speaker 1: made it their own and where they could pay homage
15:28
Speaker 1: to what came before they did, but they were never
15:31
Speaker 1: afraid to just do their own thing. So I think
15:34
Speaker 1: that would have been cool in that sense. I would
15:37
Speaker 1: have no issues with them doing that. I do think
15:42
Speaker 1: one of the interesting parts of having her be her
15:47
Speaker 1: own character in some ways is that I don't know
15:50
Speaker 1: exactly what's going to happen to her. I mean, you know,
15:54
Speaker 1: we're not going to talk about it when we get
15:56
Speaker 1: to till we get there, but like, her character just
16:00
Speaker 1: has a really interesting arc, you know, with what happens
16:03
Speaker 1: to her. So and here again, I think she's utterly
16:06
Speaker 1: fascinating in a way. The portrayal is she's just on
16:12
Speaker 1: top of it, and she's an incredibly interesting character, you know,
16:15
Speaker 1: in the same way that I think, like you said,
16:19
Speaker 1: Scarsgard just owns Luthen And I mean the performance then
16:26
Speaker 1: that he gives in this that I find incredibly fascinating
16:29
Speaker 1: is just there's that wonderful moment right where he is
16:34
Speaker 1: reorienting himself for the world of Corouscant where he is
16:38
Speaker 1: literally putting on the costume like Batman to go into
16:45
Speaker 1: Gotham and be a different person because he can't be
16:49
Speaker 1: who he truly is. He has to be somebody completely different.
16:53
Speaker 1: And I mean maybe the actual example is Bruce Wayne
16:57
Speaker 1: being the playboy and instead of you know, who he
17:02
Speaker 1: truly is inside and so and that performance just as
17:08
Speaker 1: he i mean, he washes his face and he puts
17:11
Speaker 1: on the wig, and he flexes his fingers as he's
17:14
Speaker 1: putting on, and then that moment where he just kind
17:17
Speaker 1: of like all of a sudden, that character comes out
17:20
Speaker 1: and he starts to like kind of like play laughing
17:22
Speaker 1: in the mirror, and it's like, oh, totally different, dude.
17:27
Speaker 1: And the and what is beautiful about that is that
17:33
Speaker 1: even though we don't actually see that same scene play
17:35
Speaker 1: out from mon Mathma, what we see is the moment
17:39
Speaker 1: when she gets home and you know, she lays down
17:41
Speaker 1: that piece of jewelry and there's that like weight that
17:46
Speaker 1: has come off of her because she has just had
17:49
Speaker 1: that mask on all day and now she's in some
17:53
Speaker 1: ways kind of slowly taking it off until she realizes, Oh,
17:56
Speaker 1: I'm screwed because We've got a dinner party tonight and
17:59
Speaker 1: I'm going to be surround about these people all night too.
18:01
Speaker 1: And like they're such a great mirroring for these different characters,
18:08
Speaker 1: so that the thematic elements that we're getting with one
18:12
Speaker 1: character are actually helping build into another character that they're
18:17
Speaker 1: not sharing screen time with. That's really really good writing.
18:23
Speaker 2: It is, it's very good writing. I think that this
18:27
Speaker 2: is an episode that is firing on all cylinders. The
18:30
Speaker 2: one thing that it doesn't fill me up with joy,
18:38
Speaker 2: however you want to put it, is coming back to
18:42
Speaker 2: it now. Even the time that we spend with and
18:46
Speaker 2: forgive me, I forget the character's name, but he's the
18:50
Speaker 2: zealous security guy that he goes back home to Mom.
18:54
Speaker 1: Yeah.
18:55
Speaker 2: The unfortunate thing is is I understand, Yeah, I understand
19:00
Speaker 2: from a utilitarian sense why we have to spend that
19:05
Speaker 2: amount of time with them and get there. And I
19:07
Speaker 2: don't hate it. It's actually some nice world building for Coroussant,
19:11
Speaker 2: showing me a different side of the city that I
19:12
Speaker 2: haven't seen before, giving that brutalist architecture. Okay, this is
19:18
Speaker 2: different than the entertainment district, or the you know, all
19:21
Speaker 2: these other districts I've seen very cool, but when you
19:28
Speaker 2: have ISB showing what a tightly run, clear bureaucratic organization
19:34
Speaker 2: looks like, and then the disorganized, hidden information federated nature
19:42
Speaker 2: of the rebellion and how dysfunctional it is, and seeing
19:48
Speaker 2: that the leader there in that situation of that camp,
19:51
Speaker 2: she doesn't have that same strength of personality that the
19:54
Speaker 2: head of the ISB does, and that's what leads to problems.
19:59
Speaker 2: Within the the context of the episode, his stuff just
20:04
Speaker 2: feels like, yeah, okay, like it feels necessary but not fulfilling,
20:09
Speaker 2: I guess, is the way that I would put.
20:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I agree with you in that sense, because
20:14
Speaker 1: Cyril's story is one that is something that feels like
20:21
Speaker 1: a long game, not just for this season, but for
20:24
Speaker 1: the two seasons. And so if there's any detriment to
20:32
Speaker 1: this season at all, I find it to kind of
20:35
Speaker 1: be his storyline. So, even though I love this show,
20:39
Speaker 1: I'm right there with you. I think that is just
20:42
Speaker 1: something that I'm never as interested in as the other storylines.
20:47
Speaker 1: And so what I'm hoping then is that once we
20:51
Speaker 1: get the season two and we see it play out there,
20:55
Speaker 1: it'll all kind of makes sense in the end, which
20:58
Speaker 1: you know, every I feel like every TV show kind
21:02
Speaker 1: of has that one character where it's like, oh, I
21:06
Speaker 1: didn't truly get that character until the end of the show,
21:09
Speaker 1: and so that might be him. But if it's not,
21:12
Speaker 1: then I'm also going to be left with like, oh,
21:14
Speaker 1: we spend so much time with this character and I didn't.
21:16
Speaker 1: I really need to.
21:17
Speaker 2: Give me an example. I have an example what you're
21:19
Speaker 2: talking about in my head already, where at the end
21:23
Speaker 2: of this character's journey, I was like, Okay, I'm glad
21:26
Speaker 2: he was there, but like when they started out, I
21:28
Speaker 2: was like, Wow, why am I spending any time with
21:29
Speaker 2: this character? I don't like him? Who would you go
21:33
Speaker 2: to as an example of that in another show, another series.
21:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good question, you know. I think
21:43
Speaker 1: I think one of the characters that I'm going to
21:46
Speaker 1: jump to is I'm actually going to jump to Quirk
21:52
Speaker 1: in d S Phase nine, where really his full arc
21:55
Speaker 1: really makes much more sense because first and these basis
22:02
Speaker 1: my favorite Star Trek series of old time. I love it,
22:04
Speaker 1: I adore it. I think it's it's phenomenal, right, But
22:08
Speaker 1: I think, you know, one of the things I could
22:10
Speaker 1: say about Quirk is that his arc and totality is
22:15
Speaker 1: what makes him really special, being able to go back
22:19
Speaker 1: and rewatch episodes and kind of know where he's going
22:22
Speaker 1: to go in the end. That I really love because
22:26
Speaker 1: it all then really works and it builds. But you know,
22:31
Speaker 1: just a far ANGI in general, sometimes those characters in
22:35
Speaker 1: those episodes can feel like, Okay, why am I spending
22:37
Speaker 1: time on this? And the beauty is is that they
22:40
Speaker 1: make those matter right, And so that's the thing that
22:45
Speaker 1: I love is that they don't. They don't well except
22:47
Speaker 1: for Profit and Lace, which should never have it existed
22:50
Speaker 1: as an episode, you know. Otherwise, without Quirk you don't
22:56
Speaker 1: get Rom, and without Rom, you don't get Gnawg and Oh.
23:00
Speaker 1: Storylines just becomes so incredibly important to the series as
23:06
Speaker 1: a whole. That for me, that's one of those characters
23:10
Speaker 1: where it's like, yeah, the hole is in some ways
23:12
Speaker 1: greater than the sum of its parts.
23:16
Speaker 2: I love the example that you use Quark is I
23:19
Speaker 2: wouldn't have seen it coming, but I got you. I see,
23:22
Speaker 2: I understand what you're saying. For me, I was going
23:26
Speaker 2: smaller scale character and the Max's brother in Stranger Things, Yes,
23:33
Speaker 2: I didn't. I was like, well, why is this even
23:35
Speaker 2: in the show. And then we got to his season,
23:37
Speaker 2: I was like oh, And then I was like oh okay.
23:41
Speaker 2: And then at the end, at the very end of
23:44
Speaker 2: that character, I was like, oh, yeah this worked out. Okay, Yeah, great.
23:50
Speaker 1: A show that's finally coming back after all the kids
23:52
Speaker 1: are like thirty two and have beer guts.
23:55
Speaker 2: I'm going to I'm going to use the joke I
23:57
Speaker 2: love to use that the plot of season five five
24:00
Speaker 2: of Stranger Things is going to be that Vecna got
24:02
Speaker 2: them all trapped in subprime mortgages and the whole season's
24:05
Speaker 2: going to be them figuring their way out.
24:08
Speaker 1: Oh man, So I gotta ask you about this too,
24:12
Speaker 1: because you know, obviously this episode in this three part arc,
24:15
Speaker 1: really introduce us to this whole heist that we're going
24:19
Speaker 1: to attempt here on Aldanni. And the reason that we're
24:23
Speaker 1: doing this is because you you know that Luthan and
24:29
Speaker 1: man Mathma clearly want to be able to fund the
24:33
Speaker 1: rebellion to do more, but they need the money to
24:37
Speaker 1: do it, and so this is one of those first
24:43
Speaker 1: real big steps in Cattle. You know, this is one
24:50
Speaker 1: of those first big catalyst moments for this, this this
24:55
Speaker 1: nascent rebellion really to kind of find a way to
24:57
Speaker 1: come together. And so I wanted to ask you just
24:59
Speaker 1: to about that process because we meet all these you know,
25:05
Speaker 1: new characters there and we don't get to spend a
25:08
Speaker 1: ton of time with them. But I just wanted to
25:12
Speaker 1: ask you about that setup.
25:16
Speaker 2: I think that, yeah, you're creating a source of untraceable funds.
25:22
Speaker 2: If it comes from Luthan's account in too large an amount,
25:26
Speaker 2: you can find him out. Man. Mathma can't touch her
25:29
Speaker 2: money and use it for this we already meet in
25:32
Speaker 2: this episode. She's got a minder, she's got somebody watching
25:36
Speaker 2: her at all times, make sure she stays in line
25:39
Speaker 2: sort of thing. I love the idea of setting up
25:43
Speaker 2: the Heistuh you know where my mind went this time
25:47
Speaker 2: with it, though, immediately was how would Saw Guerrera do this?
25:52
Speaker 2: Because they mentioned Saw early on when the guy falls
25:56
Speaker 2: asleep at his post, he says he if you fell
25:58
Speaker 2: asleep in Saws team, your head would be on a pike.
26:02
Speaker 2: Just for kicks. Don't want to happen again. Yeah, And
26:05
Speaker 2: I'm like, I look at this heist and I'm like,
26:08
Speaker 2: after what we got of Saw in Clone Wars, but
26:11
Speaker 2: then more importantly what we got him in bad Batch? Right,
26:15
Speaker 2: I'm like the immediately my brain goes to, ooh, how
26:19
Speaker 2: ruthless are these rebels going to be? Like I've got
26:22
Speaker 2: something in my brain where I'm like, ooh, how is
26:25
Speaker 2: this going to play out?
26:26
Speaker 1: Specifically, I think that the question that I kind of
26:29
Speaker 1: come down to, and that is, does Saw have the
26:34
Speaker 1: tactical ability to pull off anything like this at all?
26:38
Speaker 1: Or even to think like this, you know, because Saw
26:42
Speaker 1: is such a blunt instrument, and this is a precision strike.
26:49
Speaker 1: Not only is a precision but I mean just even
26:52
Speaker 1: the fact that we learn this is to take place
26:54
Speaker 1: during an event that only takes place every three years,
26:59
Speaker 1: and we've got the right people on the inside of
27:03
Speaker 1: the job and the outside of the job to make
27:05
Speaker 1: this happen, and and or is there because it gives
27:08
Speaker 1: them a much better chance of success. And so that's
27:15
Speaker 1: the thing.
27:15
Speaker 2: I guess.
27:16
Speaker 1: The question I would come to is like can it
27:19
Speaker 1: would this even be a thing in Saul's mind in
27:22
Speaker 1: the very Oh.
27:22
Speaker 2: No, I think Saul wouldn't want to take the money
27:24
Speaker 2: because it was blood money, and I think that his
27:27
Speaker 2: his goal, and I could I could see I guess
27:30
Speaker 2: I throw it up. Yeah, to give the al Dhani
27:34
Speaker 2: people their riverback. He would view that as the victory here.
27:38
Speaker 2: I'll blow up the dam and give them their river
27:40
Speaker 2: back and screw the money. Who cares? And that's I mean,
27:43
Speaker 2: I think that that's that's interesting in and of itself
27:48
Speaker 2: because that's where this episode sort of pays off for
27:51
Speaker 2: a long time fan, because you've seen how Saul would do,
27:55
Speaker 2: would go about something like this, so you already have
27:58
Speaker 2: that tension of like seeing these different aspects of the
28:01
Speaker 2: rebellion and knowing that we're still not at the point
28:05
Speaker 2: in Rebels where Saw has his big speech with everybody,
28:10
Speaker 2: yeah at Yavin and everything, you know, like and I'll
28:14
Speaker 2: give him, you know what, I'll double back because well
28:17
Speaker 2: I talked about they didn't take the opportunity to tie.
28:20
Speaker 2: I stared in and said, have Dedra. It's a push.
28:23
Speaker 2: I'm not complaining about it, guys. I did like the
28:26
Speaker 2: fact that when Luthan is talking to and Or you
28:30
Speaker 2: find out and Or was it Mimben and they that's
28:33
Speaker 2: just a little bit of color given to it. But
28:35
Speaker 2: immediately I can cue in and go, aha, Mimben is
28:38
Speaker 2: where Han Solo was too, and it's like that's that's
28:42
Speaker 2: the type of little tie in where I'm like, oh,
28:44
Speaker 2: I know what the Mimben conflict was, but if I
28:47
Speaker 2: haven't seen Solo a Star Wars story, I just need
28:50
Speaker 2: to know it's a war, that's it. And it's like
28:52
Speaker 2: that's a really good tie in sort of thing. And
28:55
Speaker 2: that's what Maybe that's the advantage of Gilroy and the
28:58
Speaker 2: crew on this show can have is that they'll make reference,
29:04
Speaker 2: but since they're not diehards, they'll make reference in the
29:08
Speaker 2: right way quote unquote, where it won't be two shots
29:14
Speaker 2: focused on the to jerk table in the Millennium Falcons hold.
29:21
Speaker 2: It'll be one shot instead of two. It'll be a
29:26
Speaker 2: fleeting reference instead of lingering on the past as it were.
29:32
Speaker 2: So maybe that's what's working for the show's advantage.
29:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think that's something that's really interesting.
29:38
Speaker 1: You get Luthen also handing him this very esoteric crystal
29:47
Speaker 1: that is a reference to the Knightsville Republic game, which
29:53
Speaker 1: is an incredibly cool deep cut, which I love. Right,
29:58
Speaker 1: And so, like you said, it's like they're all these
30:01
Speaker 1: little moments that really pay off fans, but not in
30:07
Speaker 1: a way that hurts anybody else, you know, from enjoying
30:11
Speaker 1: the episode, and I think that's fantastic. I think maybe
30:16
Speaker 1: the one last question that I wanted to ask you about,
30:19
Speaker 1: and we talked a little bit about my Matha, but
30:21
Speaker 1: I think kind of circling back to her and you know,
30:24
Speaker 1: meeting her husband, who just seems like an absolute tool,
30:30
Speaker 1: you know, was fascinating because he's just like, oh, why
30:36
Speaker 1: is everybody so boring? And like he's just this wealthy
30:41
Speaker 1: jerk store who has nothing better to do than to
30:45
Speaker 1: throw dinner parties because he's his life is so boring
30:49
Speaker 1: and he doesn't care about anything. And it was like
30:53
Speaker 1: I remember watching the show for the first time. We
30:57
Speaker 1: never knew that my Mathma was married. But to have
31:01
Speaker 1: her be married and be in this marriage to somebody
31:04
Speaker 1: who understands absolutely nothing of who she is and who
31:08
Speaker 1: she's become, and actually also be kind of diametrically deposed
31:14
Speaker 1: to who she's become because he could care less is
31:20
Speaker 1: utterly fascinating to me.
31:24
Speaker 2: It definitely shows the strain that can happen in a
31:26
Speaker 2: marriage when somebody follows a different path and like, you know,
31:31
Speaker 2: and it's that thing where it's like you know, it
31:35
Speaker 2: happens with any marriage. You know, people grow and develop
31:39
Speaker 2: at different rates. And I think the question, the fascinating
31:43
Speaker 2: thing with this episode is sitting there, you get enough
31:47
Speaker 2: to say to yourself, but why is she with him?
31:51
Speaker 2: And that's a question you want answered. This is the
31:54
Speaker 2: proper set. It's not a mystery box. It's not a
31:57
Speaker 2: I'm having a dinner party. And at that point I'll
31:59
Speaker 2: open up the box that's sitting here on the table
32:01
Speaker 2: that will tell you.
32:03
Speaker 3: No.
32:04
Speaker 2: It's I see their interaction and I say, well, why
32:08
Speaker 2: are they staying together? Now? I want to know more?
32:13
Speaker 2: And it's because I see that interaction and it's it's
32:16
Speaker 2: played so well. And again other people have said this,
32:18
Speaker 2: but what a testament to Lucas and his casting director
32:23
Speaker 2: for episode three to know how how vital this actress
32:30
Speaker 2: was going to be Asthma and Mathma, Like God bless
32:34
Speaker 2: them for knowing how well she could play this role,
32:38
Speaker 2: even though she was cast for the equivalent of one
32:40
Speaker 2: scene in episode three. I mean they paid attention.
32:44
Speaker 1: Man, Yeah, I mean she's she's phenomenal. And I think,
32:48
Speaker 1: like you said, you know, the beauty of this is
32:52
Speaker 1: her portrayal and the questions that arrive around her are
33:00
Speaker 1: just so fascinating, and she just does such a great
33:05
Speaker 1: job of bringing life to a character that you know,
33:08
Speaker 1: we saw for seconds in Return of the Jedi and
33:13
Speaker 1: and we saw for seconds in Revenge of the Sith,
33:16
Speaker 1: and you know, thankfully we got an opportunity to spend
33:18
Speaker 1: some more time with her in Rebels. But yeah, you're
33:23
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. I mean, it's it's phenomenal casting the
33:26
Speaker 1: fact that we've actually gotten to spend more time with her,
33:29
Speaker 1: And it's great that this show exists in that sense,
33:33
Speaker 1: just to be able to give us more of her
33:36
Speaker 1: in that story, because we do know that she's so
33:40
Speaker 1: pivotal to the rebellion and we even saw it, you know,
33:44
Speaker 1: and Rogue one. So I think it's great obviously, you know,
33:49
Speaker 1: first three episodes for you, like you liked a lot,
33:52
Speaker 1: but you also had some issues with it. Sounds like
33:58
Speaker 1: this is the this is the episode that really righted
34:01
Speaker 1: the ship for you. And if I mean, if you
34:07
Speaker 1: had a rating for this episode, what do you think
34:09
Speaker 1: you'd give it?
34:11
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I mean this is a solid four. Okay,
34:15
Speaker 2: why not a five? Well, you know the serial stuff,
34:18
Speaker 2: you know, Yeah, I get it. It's a long play
34:22
Speaker 2: and there there's resolution, but not complete resolution. It's not
34:28
Speaker 2: a fault of the show, right, Like it's a four
34:31
Speaker 2: star piece of what could potentially be a five star,
34:34
Speaker 2: Like it's it's solid four. Yeah, like it will never
34:38
Speaker 2: go lower than four. It could only go up with
34:41
Speaker 2: another rewatch or something like that. So that's where I
34:43
Speaker 2: end with it. Where where did you end with it? Yeah?
34:45
Speaker 1: I think I I'm close to where you are, and
34:48
Speaker 1: since I think I'd get four half out of five.
34:50
Speaker 1: And part of that is just because at this point,
34:54
Speaker 1: you know, in the storyline, I don't quite know where
34:57
Speaker 1: we're going with the serial story, and so I'm kind
34:59
Speaker 1: of like, why are we still following this dude at
35:01
Speaker 1: this point and getting to his mother's house where he
35:03
Speaker 1: gets slapped and he just kind of seems like a
35:06
Speaker 1: little pity party boy. So yes, in that that that's
35:11
Speaker 1: that's where it's like, I but you know, everything else
35:17
Speaker 1: in some ways, it's like everything else in this episode
35:20
Speaker 1: brings it so close to a five because the story
35:25
Speaker 1: is so on point, and the and the acting for
35:28
Speaker 1: all the characters, even like I think of all the
35:31
Speaker 1: crew that we meet and Aldannie, they all feel interesting
35:34
Speaker 1: and fascinating in that sense too, And so it's like
35:40
Speaker 1: everything is really firing on all cylinders by this point,
35:45
Speaker 1: and it just feels like we're just gonna you know,
35:48
Speaker 1: we're gonna hit the pod race button and we're just
35:51
Speaker 1: gonna fly from now on. So I'll be really excited
35:54
Speaker 1: then to continue the story. And I kind of love
35:57
Speaker 1: where kind of taking this at this slower pace because
36:01
Speaker 1: it really gets this opportunity to kind of dig into
36:03
Speaker 1: all the nitty gritty details. But John, if you know
36:05
Speaker 1: people wanted to catch up with you, see what else
36:07
Speaker 1: you've got going on, maybe talk some more and or
36:10
Speaker 1: and just all the interesting Star Wars news and things
36:14
Speaker 1: that are happening over on the internet, where would they
36:17
Speaker 1: find you?
36:17
Speaker 2: Oh well, gosh, if you want my opinion on anything,
36:20
Speaker 2: you can reach me at Matt Rushing zero two. Oh no,
36:22
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I'm kidding at Kessele Junkie and you can
36:26
Speaker 2: find me here on the network, co hosting a show
36:29
Speaker 2: called house Lights where we look at the work of
36:31
Speaker 2: directors and we have lots of fun with that looking
36:34
Speaker 2: at directors everybody from Fincher to Tarantino too. Someday, someday
36:39
Speaker 2: they will answer my dreams and we will actually look
36:42
Speaker 2: at the works of Catherine Bigelow, one of my favorite
36:45
Speaker 2: underb appreciated directors. Yeah, and Matt, I know. I also
36:51
Speaker 2: appear sometimes over on The six or two Club, which
36:53
Speaker 2: is one of the many ways people can reach you online.
36:56
Speaker 2: So where can people reach out to you?
36:58
Speaker 1: Absolutely check me out on the six or two Club
37:01
Speaker 1: over on the TFM network with a lot of other
37:03
Speaker 1: Star Trek Talk as well with a lot of other shows.
37:05
Speaker 1: So if you like either of those things where you're
37:08
Speaker 1: talking about fantoms that you love or the other Star franchise,
37:12
Speaker 1: please do check that out.
37:14
Speaker 2: We love that.
37:15
Speaker 1: Over on social media, I'm under the name Matt Rushing
37:17
Speaker 1: zero two on Networks, So if you search that name
37:22
Speaker 1: and I'm there, that's the name I'll be under. You
37:25
Speaker 1: can also find me here on the network doing outpost.
37:29
Speaker 1: Dreya Kaufman and I finished that show where we talked
37:31
Speaker 1: about every single chapter the Harry Potter series, one chapter
37:34
Speaker 1: at a time. But you know, John, I hear that
37:39
Speaker 1: the chimes the temple calling. I think they're asking us
37:44
Speaker 1: to bring back some sl Donnie Meade because Yoda is
37:48
Speaker 1: actually a big fan. So I think it's time to
37:50
Speaker 1: close these negotiations.
37:52
Speaker 2: He can drink a surprising amount for his body weight
37:55
Speaker 2: and master rushing negotiations start.
37:57
Speaker 1: Plotters join the Revolution, join the Nerd Party.