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The Heart of Worship with Eric Attinger · Ministry Minded

• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast,
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us in our messy ministries.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: I serve as the senior pastor of Stonington Baptist Church right here in Pax Sinus, Pennsylvania.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so glad to once again be joined by my partner in crime,
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: my brother in ministry,
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Pastor Eric Adinger.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: As we continue our series of conversations about the ministry of preaching,
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: we can call it the event of preaching in what constitutes a biblically faithful sermon.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: We've covered a lot of ground previously.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: in the past couple episodes relating to this topic and regarding some of these issues.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I think today we continue by alluding to and referencing the heart of worship.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: That'll be a phrase that you hear repeatedly.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't intend to make that the theme of this particular episode, but it ended up being that way.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: which I would take is just the natural organic part of this conversation,
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: which is the fact that I think by and large,
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: generally speaking,
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: the church has lost what the heart of worship is and what the heart of worship
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: should be.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so we dive into that issue.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: We tease out the fact that the primary part of
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: a church's worship service should be the preaching event,
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: the sermon itself,
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: the preached word of God,
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: and how mistaken views of what worship is and what it's supposed to do lead to a
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: number of different pitfalls that end up affecting the church itself.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: So we talk about that and lots of other things relating to worship, relating to preaching,
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: what,
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: what is the right level of emotions or,
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: or different styles of sermon delivery and how those are related to what
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: constitutes true worship.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, uh, there's lots to be gleaned from in this particular episodes, lots to learn, lots to consider.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope you will sit back and relax and enjoy this episode.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, again, this is, uh, part number three, installment number three of, I don't know how many episodes.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: between me and Pastor Eric,
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: and we just have a good time chatting about theology,
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: preaching,
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: ministry,
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: and church.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope you enjoy eavesdropping on this conversation.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope you're encouraged by it.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: God bless you.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is part number three of this little mini-series that we've been doing through
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know what to say.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's just about preaching.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah, general preaching discussion.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: General preaching discussion.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever comes up.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is, I guess, how my brain works.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Our brains work different ways.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I just had a topic come to my head that literally I didn't write down,
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: but I think will fit in with what we're going to kind of lead into,
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: which is I think maybe we should establish the fact that
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: that preaching is the primary function of a gathered assembly.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that this is a really good segue into multiple different
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: little tangents we could go on because I think if you look at the modern church landscape,
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: that's maybe not as popular of a sentiment.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Unfortunately.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that leads into some of the things that we will talk about,
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: which is like that idea of the worship being somewhat emotional or even as we veer
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: into the real negative aspects,
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: end of it it's kind of manipulative yes but like um primarily can how should we and
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: where should we how should we biblically establish preaching as primary and then
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: like how does that actually function within a church body you know what i mean how
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: does that actually like kind of like get
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: disseminated within within the church sure yeah that's a really good question it's
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: almost like i don't want to go to the marketing route but it's almost like it's
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_03: going to take a while for a lot of churches even the best i think well-intentioned
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_03: preachers who already know this and they are very centered and know that the
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_03: preaching is the most important
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: It might not mean their people know that.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's going to have to do with a lot of, well, leadership driven.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_03: So I would continue emphasis and mentioning of,
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_03: just like we used to do in one church I was at,
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_03: we would always emphasize the church.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: And we knew when we talked about church, people thought about the buildings.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: We'd call it gathering intentionally.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_03: And then every once in a while,
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_03: we'd emphasize,
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_03: whether it was a Bible study,
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_03: whether it was a meeting,
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: that we are the church.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's the body of Christ.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: And the building is just where the church meets.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: And we're everywhere.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_03: And it took a lot of emphasis.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_03: and almost strategy in a way, careful wording.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_03: So almost in a way,
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_03: I don't want to say marketing because we're not trying to manipulate and not trying
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: to sell something,
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_03: so to speak,
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_03: but in a way we are trying to sell them on the idea that preaching is the most
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_03: essential thing because,
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: like you said,
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_03: worship is one of the biggest distractions,
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_03: which is sad because it's meant to be there,
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_03: obviously,
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_03: to prepare our hearts,
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: to worship God,
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: to be able to sing our praises to him because music is so important.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: But often, like you said, it can be very...
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: even manipulative, it's definitely emotional, can be good and bad.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: Because, obviously, worship is stirred up before me in really strong emotions.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: And they are true emotions, you know, set forth before the Lord.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: And they can be good.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_03: But also,
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: what you're probably getting at,
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: too,
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_03: is you don't want it to be so emotional where you can,
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: which I know of preachers who have done,
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_03: personally,
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: who have,
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: they'll almost arrange a set of songs to get this emotion so that people buy their
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: every word,
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: whatever it may be,
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_03: afterward.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: Whether it's a good thing, I guess it was God's word, but tends to not be.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: And there tends to sometimes be agendas behind what people say.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_03: And worship is where, unfortunately, between worship and children's ministry.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_03: Children's ministry is another one.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: I know that people say,
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: I love this church and the preacher was really good,
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: but they just didn't have a good children's ministry.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: And then people will lift that above things, which it is important.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_03: I completely understand that.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: But the preaching of the gospel should be the most important.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_03: important thing but you hear it all that one's usually secondary but the one is
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_03: like oh the worship I hear it a lot like oh I love it but your church is not my
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: style and the way I need to prepare my heart I need this kind of music and I just
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: can't connect and it's like
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_03: Well, worship is not actually only music, and that's a portion of worship.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: But then again,
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_03: you have to almost ask yourself,
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_03: do I want to go to a theological debate and discussion with this person who
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_03: probably won't even understand what I'm getting at right out the gate and is just
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: very focused on how it makes them feel.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it can be like a pet peeve.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: especially of mine, when people are like, I'm the quote-unquote worship pastor and the song leader.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because...
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: but I would say it's not just a pet peeve.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just a nitpick because I think it lends itself to this idea where we have
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: a worship segment of our church service and then we have a preaching segment.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: And if you start to,
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: to sort of like segregate those different portions of quote unquote,
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: the gathering,
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: then you have this dichotomy between,
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: especially in like some modern churches where people,
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: where the worship part is very flashy.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's very entertaining.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not knocking that per se,
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm saying you,
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: then you,
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: if you start to segregate those two different portions of a church service,
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: then you have this very flashy portion.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have this preaching portion,
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: which is often not as flashly just because it's,
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: it's somewhat of a dial of a monologue of a speaker presenting the word of God,
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: which is really what it should be.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: But
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Then you create this weird dichotomy where one is a little bit more like,
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: I like this part because I'm engaged.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm actually participating, which we can talk about later.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: Then you have this other part where I'm just sitting and listening,
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: which theoretically you should be participating.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: But there's so many different things.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: One of my favorite things I actually heard,
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: a young pastor friend,
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: he lives down in New Jersey near Philly.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_03: He's a Presbyterian preacher and, you know, is very orthodox.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: And he said, my big struggle down here is it's...
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: He said, I just can't compete with the other churches, not that I even want to.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: He said,
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: but if you want to come and rock out and you want guitars and all these things,
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_03: my church doesn't offer that.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just never going to compete with you.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_03: And he was kind of getting at the idea of commercialization of Sunday mornings,
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_03: which is probably what we're kind of even talking about here and how it is.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I get why.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_03: well-intentioned people and really well-intentioned pastors are never trying to be
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_03: a hindrance and they're probably thinking you know we talk about different doors to
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: ministry well hey if i have people that like pop music and they like music and they
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: like flashy lights and they like going to concerts i know people love to pay money
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_03: to go to concerts so if i give them a concert that could get them in to hear the
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_03: true gospel and it's like i get where you're going with that but that's you know
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_03: kind of building a foundation uh very uh inappropriately not only that um
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: The music,
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'm very open to all different kinds of music and everybody likes different,
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_03: even myself,
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_03: likes different kind of music.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: But you kind of hinted at the whole thing where it's like almost, it's over, we call it overproduction.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's overproduced where there's light, flashing lights, there's smoke and fog and everything.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_03: And the lights come down and all those things.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_03: And it just kind of reminds me of we're dressing it up a little bit too much.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_03: And it reminds me a lot of how scripture can apply to things multiple ways.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_03: And it reminds me of what it says to women about the church.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_03: And I know people get real wound up about this, but like, hey, don't go.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: around wearing gold earrings and pearls dressed modestly because a real woman a
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: real godly woman would have you know it would be her character that you can see and
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: not these things and it almost reminds you the same with worship let the words of
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_03: the music do it let the message of God do it for you and don't add gold and lights
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_03: and smoke to make it flashier
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's very similar.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Embellish it.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, it's embellishment.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's really just an embellishment.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: And really, it's the same thing that the Bible is getting at.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: They're not saying that.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, jewelry is not evil.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_03: But what it's saying is making an appearance,
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_03: using some kind of an appearance to uplift is a distraction,
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_03: and it's not a true reality of what maybe is really going on.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: And that's,
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: what's even happening because that music,
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: if you get rid of the lights and the smoke,
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_03: it might not be as overproduced,
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_03: and it might actually work in a sense as long as,
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_03: again,
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_03: they're keeping the people kind of in check.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_03: and reminding them what it's all about, which might not be happening enough.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, correct.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: though,
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: this is obviously a touchy subject,
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: just because people get all opinionated about what type of music is appropriate.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not interested in that conversation.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, as long as the music is...
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: honoring God with a heart that wants to honor God, I think it's appropriate for the church gathering.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: But regardless, I think the biggest...
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: Again,
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: the biggest misconception is this divide between worship and preaching,
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: which,
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: it's not a nitpick to say that the worship pastor and the preaching pastor should
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: be the same guy.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: You have a song leader,
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: you have a guy who preaches,
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: but the whole service is the worship service that gathered people.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: worship service, the assembly as it talks about in Hebrews chapter 10, of God's people.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think, again, that's not just like...
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: me trying to be nuanced,
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think that rightly understands that when God's people gather,
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: they sing to prepare their hearts to receive the Word,
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: where the Word is primary and fundamental and foundational,
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: whereas the singing can or cannot be present.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, if we don't sing but we still preach, there's still worship that happens.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: But if we don't preach and we sing...
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: it's hard to say if that gathering is biblical or not.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, that's a really great point.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, okay, before you go, that's just to say, a Hillsong concert...
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: I would say it's technically not worship.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: It can be worshipful.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I'm not trying to be overly nuanced.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: But it can be worshipful because you're singing these songs that,
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: whatever your opinion on Hillsong is.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I went to a Hillsong concert in Miami.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I just remember like, man, this was an amazing experience.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I knew...
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: fundamentally and pointedly that I wasn't at church, even though I had a really great time.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: It was a great experience,
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: and I loved singing these songs that have really great,
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: and I would even argue in some cases,
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: very sound theological words behind them.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: But because there's no preaching...
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: You can't call a Hillsong concert a worship service because the Word of God is
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: never opened,
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: and by and large,
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: there's no elder leadership.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: But you know what I mean?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: One is not the other.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: Right,
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_03: and it's funny because how many people,
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: and I'm guessing it's close to zero,
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_03: said they went to church on Friday because they went to a Hillsong.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: Like, hey, I went to church on Friday.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody says that stuff because they don't even look at it like that.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: And you know what I mean?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: And then that's what you say when you're basically gluing that on front of church,
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_03: the actual service of church.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: You're basically gluing that little concert sometimes on there as that attraction
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: piece because it is interesting.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: We've never charged for church, but people pay money to go to Hillsong.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_03: They wouldn't pay to go to church.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_03: So this is a whole – you can just see these things and why people use these things.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm thinking about how many services I've been to in my life,
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: and there's actually been a handful where there was no music.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like maybe at a park, like, Hey, we're going to have a thing out of service at a park.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_03: And you go there and it might even be,
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_03: I've been to ones where they passed out sheets and we sang acapella and that was
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: that work.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_03: Cause it was, and nobody got said, Hey, where are the guitars?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody even asked.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_03: And we just went with it and we sang and it was part.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_03: And really because everybody was there to hear a message from God's and expository
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_03: preaching from the word and what it all was,
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_03: what God was getting at.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't think like,
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: could you imagine,
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just trying to get,
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_03: I'm trying to think the flip side.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_03: Would any of us go just to hear five or six worship songs at a park and leave and say,
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_03: that was a really good church service?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: I just don't think we would.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, I don't think so.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's not just an ecclesiological opinion.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's not just an opinion of our view of church.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a biblical opinion.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: conviction.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I would say, largely because there's plenty of places to go to within the New Testament.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: But I would also argue that,
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: I preached on a couple of weeks ago from Deuteronomy 18,
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: where Moses is basically establishing the office of prophet.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, the prophet's going to stand and speak for the Lord.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: He's going to speak the words of God to the people of God.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: And by and large,
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: I would apply that same rubric that he identifies in Deuteronomy 18 of what
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: constitutes a true prophet to what happens when a preacher opens the word.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is how we're hearing from God.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, singing is good because...
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I don't want anyone to mistake us.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: Singing plays a huge part.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: One of the largest books of the Bible is the Psalms, of course, and it's all songs that the people sang.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: So no one's denying that songs only played a large part for the people of Israel,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: but also for the New Testament church.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think Paul says in Colossians, making psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, all that kind of stuff.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it plays a large part for the church.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: primarily and foundationally,
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: it's the preached word,
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: not the sung word,
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: that actually gives life to people,
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: if that makes sense.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: and even why I'd probably even go along to say,
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: going back to the Hillsong concert concept,
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_03: even if a guy came out there...
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_03: It would be great if they came out and preached the gospel and just said a little word about that.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_03: But even then, I guess that would be a real preaching worship service.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_03: If it was really based around that,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: but even though you know it wouldn't be,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: there would be 10 to 12 songs that the guy may be giving a 5 or 10 minute message.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: And then the worst part about all this,
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_03: if you called that a church service,
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: was because everybody leaves and goes home and there's no levels of accountability
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_03: and spiritual growth and no community.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: Because it's these one-time events where...
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: We really see,
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_03: especially when you get to the New Testament,
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_03: when the church is born,
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: they weren't meeting up in a city for a day and then leaving and going and living
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_03: their life somewhere else.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: They were,
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: gathered together,
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_03: living in community,
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: holding each other accountable,
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: providing for each other when they're,
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: they're hurting or in need.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_03: So it was more community driven and accountability.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_03: You just don't have that.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: um, in these, uh, you know, these, these kinds of things that we're talking about going to concert.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: And like you said, nothing against music.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: Cause it's all, I'm a, I love music.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_03: That's like, that's one of my favorite things about it.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: And I know you're a big music guy too.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: So it's nothing, we're not against that.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: I'm always, you know, all about that, but really it's, I don't want to call it auxiliary.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: Cause I know it's, is mandated in the Bible to do these things.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: And it's very, you know, to sing, uh, Psalms and things like that.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: But I just don't, like, again, a service could happen if there was preaching without the music.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, we can sing acapella if we really want to incorporate it.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's fine.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: But the preaching is really where the truth comes out, right?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: Because when you hear these songs, they can be good as long as they're theologically sounding.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_03: You repeat these things in your head throughout the day.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_03: That's good.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: I get why.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_03: But you're never going to,
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_03: just by listening to this one song on repeat,
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_03: grow in your faith because you're just encapsulized in this one message.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: And usually they're very vague, right?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and there are things, very things like God is good.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you help me when pain is here.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_03: You love me.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_03: It's like really vague things that are all true about God,
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: but you're not getting to the meat of things because you're not really getting down
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: to into the,
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: into the Bible and into the scripture.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_03: And that's where the meat really is.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: That's our daily bread is not the music.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's the daily bread is the, is the scripture.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what we really need to get to.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: And the music is all obviously directed even – that's the other thing.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_03: Again, we've pointed worship to ourselves, and it's really directed to God.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: We're not supposed to be singing to each other.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_03: We're supposed to be singing to God.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_03: But I really think what you're getting at is the importance of things.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I wish more – I think more pastors agree with us than not,
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: especially the ones that maybe have this issue going on.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's just how do they convey it?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_03: Are they maybe not conveying it enough?
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: And you know how it could be.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_03: They could say, well, I can't believe, I don't know why the people are so caught up in this.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, well, you have to somehow guide them.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_03: And when they're that far gone,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_03: it would be a lot harder,
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: be a lot easier for us,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_03: to portray this message because we don't have so much smoke and flash.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas going in,
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: I couldn't imagine taking over a church that had,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_03: smoke and mirrors and all these things going on and then having to tell the people,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_03: hey,
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_03: this is all secondary.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_03: It would be a big task.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: It would be a big task.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_03: So I see why.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_03: I see the dilemma.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've seen some of those.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: videos on social media and stuff where,
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: these gigantic churches,
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: they have,
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: incredible,
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: production rooms.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: Where it almost looks like, you know, like a TV channel.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: I've been into one.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: I've been into one.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: Seriously, they brought me back.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: I was at this church one time,
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_03: and they were showing us their things because we were trying to upgrade our system.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_03: It was back in the last church I was at, and they literally brought me in, and I'm not even kidding.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: It was like 10 screens.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_03: They brought me back into a room, and I felt like I was, like, in Saturday Night Live NBC Studios.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a real thing.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: And part of me is, like, there's nowhere I can say that that's necessarily unbiblical.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: But there is, like, this weird, like... I don't know.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's this weird, like, angsty feeling I get when I see that happen.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Only because...
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think you,
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: you kind of alluded to maybe like how much is too much when it,
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: the embellishment thing.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's so hard to balance that.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: Cause again,
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_03: we're not saying eliminate music cause we're music people,
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_03: but we're saying keep it in order.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: Keep it in context.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: Keep it, you know, in these, in these parameters, things just get so, you know, out of control.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_03: And,
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_03: and then you look at this and like,
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: I'm,
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: I'm thinking,
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: and that,
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_03: church is a good biblically preaching church.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um,
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: and everything.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: Uh,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: but you look at it,
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: you say,
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_03: there was 10 screens there and I know there's software running this.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's not free.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_03: And look at these soundboards.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_03: They had multiple boards back there.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_03: And we're not even out into the actual place where the soundboard actually,
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_03: this is their,
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: their back room,
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_03: their green room.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, you know what I mean?
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, wow, like I'm just looking at it and I'm a money guy.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: I'm thinking about money.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, man, there is at least a hundred grand in this room.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I was probably accurate.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_03: And then you have to ask yourself,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_03: Would they give $100,000 to the pastor for his commentaries for the year?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: They'd be like, that's excessive.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not saying that pastors need tons of money for that, but you can just kind of go to show.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: They'd much rather spend money.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: I know they put things out for education.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: It's not to go down that route.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_03: What I'm saying is a lot of bigger churches don't have a problem spending these huge amounts of money.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_03: And then you get some of my friends who are very reformed,
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: I would say,
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: on the opposite end that maybe are a little bit harsher than I am against some of
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: these churches that have these big things.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_03: But their big gripe is,
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: and I heard the one guy say it before,
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: he was at a church we were looking around at places.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: And he said, man, I just can't go back there.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: I looked at their – they actually gave him a budget to show him everything.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_03: And he's like, look at the money they're spending basically on their production.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_03: And he said, how many people out there don't know about Christ in other countries?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: And we could be sending missionaries or we could be sending Bibles or we could be
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_03: doing these other things.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I get it.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: You could be nitpicky forever and nobody is ever going to agree on where the money should really go.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_03: Totally.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: But I understood when they have these crazy high markups and he's like,
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm looking and I can't find where they're doing their missions.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: And that was his big thing.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: So he was very mission focused in the window of the unreached people.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: So I know that's why he really embellished on it.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: But he made a good point.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: He was like, they're spending a little bit of money and it's probably just sending it and forgetting it.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_03: And then here they are all focused on worship and making sure they have the nice
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: monitors and all these things.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: And again, just goes to show things need to be
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's probably what we're getting at with preaching in a way is that things have fallen off the rails.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_03: They've really gone off the rails sideways.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_03: And can we get them back into preaching the word and going and fulfilling the Great Commission?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: What's that Matt Redman song where he's like, I'm coming back to the heart of worship?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I know.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I've seen that song sung where it's like,
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: very produced.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's like a weird irony.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: The irony in all of this.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's so true.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: It is so true.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that song actually conveys a really good sentiment where the heart of worship,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: and I think,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: to bring this back to the event of preaching or the art of preaching,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: so to speak,
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: when
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: When our music is sort of out of whack in terms of its priority,
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: where we are focused on the embellishments,
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think that also leads to a tendency to make our preaching,
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: come almost,
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: reach that level,
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know what I mean?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, now, as we said at the beginning, you know, like, you have this...
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: music time that's full of, like, lights and engaging and stuff.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so now we have to match that with,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: okay,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: we've got to make our preaching time just as entertaining.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: And if not, then not to mention the fact that
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: That music time has often eaten into the preaching times.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes longer than the preaching.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Way more long.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: But then we,
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think sometimes implicitly or maybe explicitly,
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: preachers feel the need to adjust their delivery and dare I even say their content.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: In order to make the preaching more engaging, more captivating, and even, dare I say, more entertaining.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: and that's a great word to use because they're essentially,
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_03: they've moved from religious services to the entertainment industry.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_03: Is really what it is.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why I think you hit the nail on the head.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_03: Why are we seeing these crazy things like we talked about in the past episodes,
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: like the meetup at the movies...
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: At church, why do we have Simba being crucified on a cross right now?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_03: Why do we have all these things?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's exactly what you're saying.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: The preacher's saying, well, there's this flashy band here.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_03: I can't just stand on here with a book and a microphone.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: And then the people that aren't doing the movie stuff,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_03: you at least have people with these elaborate,
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: and I've seen them,
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: they roll out.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: Next Sunday,
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_03: it's like you're going to a play,
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: like a theater,
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: because you look up there and they have this whole set design.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: With all these things,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: and I'm not saying you can't use,
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_03: like I've seen people use the table and,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: for illustrations and stuff,
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_03: but some of these are,
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: super,
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: super elaborate.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_03: And you got people like,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: I'm sure some people have seen like people putting syrup on the Bible to emphasize things.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_03: All these crazy, all these crazy tactics just to keep up.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_03: Going back to my one friend that I think of in New Jersey saying, listen.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to preach the word.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to deliver the truth.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: I'll do it.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, he's not going to do it in a monotone voice.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: He's got delivery.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_03: He's like, but if they want me to bring in a band to get growth, I'm just not going to do it.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think it's essential.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's actually a hindrance.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it lets us understand where you think your priority is of what actually is building the church.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: And again, this gets back to who actually builds the church.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's actually not the preacher.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's actually the Holy Spirit.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And he does that through the word being preached.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Not necessarily the preacher and his charisma, but through the word being preached.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: And dare I say, the true charisma of God, which is the Holy Spirit.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_03: And you see these kind of like,
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: you can even just go to the scripture and just kind of prove our point,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_03: I think,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: is like,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_03: the Old Testament just starts out with a lot of preaching and talking from,
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_03: if you want to go to Moses,
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: like he's given a lot of preaching.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_03: This is all really good words.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_03: And you don't have these elaborate worship services.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_03: The closest thing you get is when they cross the Red Sea and they have the dances
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: of Miriam's with a tambourine.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: And that's a celebration.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: And guess what that was for?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: That wasn't because they love the song that Miriam sing and they love this tune.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_03: No, it was because they were, God, you just saved us.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: And everything I think in that moment was really pointed to God.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like he just brought them through the Red Sea.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_03: God, this is all for you.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_03: And when they were singing, they were looking up.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_03: They weren't looking at each other like, wow, you have a really good voice, Miriam.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think it was very God-oriented.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_03: And then it goes back to, you know, getting, like, the foundation of it all.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, Moses doesn't say, you know, if you have good worship music, you'll be good.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_03: But if you don't, you know, then you're going to have a bad time.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: No, he talks about following God's commands.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: And that's just really, really where it comes into.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I know we pick on preaching, but it can happen.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: Or we picked on worship.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_03: But there's all different kinds of ways.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I'll use another example I've heard.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: You hear things from people, you know.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: And it's funny.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: I always tell people, give me your honesty.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'm never going to ridicule them for what they say.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: But then I get real honest feedback from people.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I literally had somebody come up to me when I was a pastor in my last church.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: And say, you know, I get my friends here, but they don't really like this kind of coffee.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: Is there any kind of coffee?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: You only have plain cream.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_03: My buddy likes French vanilla, and I think he did that.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, where are the priorities?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_03: Now, if it's a secondary issue and they'll still come, that's fine.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_03: But when you come to me, I'm hoping you're talking about something different than the coffee cream.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: you know what I mean,
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: but those,
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: seriously,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: that kind of,
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_03: and I know why people do it,
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_03: and it's not a bad thing,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: it's not a bad thing,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: we do it here,
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: to have coffee,
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: it's a good thing,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: but what happens is,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_03: anything else,
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: things,
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_03: if they start getting elevated,
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: because they all have their place,
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: it's good to have coffee,
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_03: that's a nice little gathering,
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: and,
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_03: coffee and chatting,
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: that's good,
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: the music,
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: obviously,
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: we're saying that's good,
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_03: but,
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_03: but yeah,
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_03: so,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_03: so basically,
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: the coffee,
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: it's,
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: it's not bad,
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_03: and there's nothing wrong with the coffee,
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_03: there's nothing wrong with
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_03: any of these things, like worship, these are all good things.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: There's not even a bad thing with Bible studies.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_03: Bible studies are great.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: But when you have people more focusing on,
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: things outside of the preaching and kind of neglecting,
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: which I think is probably what's happened,
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_03: definitely in American Christianity,
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: each church has its own,
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: thumbprint, so to speak, or fingerprint, where they're all unique or whatever.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: But I think mostly,
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_03: if you talk to the people,
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_03: the thing they're looking least forward to,
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: in a sad way,
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: is the preaching.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, that's the time they start to think about what's for lunch.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_03: And it's this problem,
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_03: and I know they're just naturally human,
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_03: and we've all been there at some point when they were younger or whatever,
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_03: but...
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's something like a wake-up call.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_03: I always keep talking about the Reformation needs a Reformation,
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_03: and I think this is probably high up on the list.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: But this is probably something Martin Luther would nail to the door right now.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, one thing, yes.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, something he'd nail right now.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely he would.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think, so as preachers, we can...
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think we should be somewhat self-reflective because we can pin the idea that the
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: preaching time has become less popular on congregations if we wanted to,
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: and we can say,
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: you're dissatisfied.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: But how would you say that preachers have done a disservice to themselves and to
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: even other preachers to where the preaching time is viewed as somewhat lesser or
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: it's
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: somewhat of an encumbrance within the worship service as opposed to other things that happen?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think preachers have played into that?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's a really great question.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I think so in a lot of different ways.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_03: I wouldn't say there's a ton.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: There's always going to be those monotone guys that aren't exciting.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_03: You have to have some kind of...
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: You have to be excited, not overly excited where it's crazy, but you have to be excited about the word.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're not going to live it and you don't look excited up there and you're
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_03: not taking it importantly,
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: people aren't going to buy into that.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_03: So you have to kind of present it there, which not every preacher is really doing.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_03: You also have these things where I would say,
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: maybe I'm kind of going off track a little bit,
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_03: but you have a lot of other areas that preachers can go wrong where I've heard some,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: and they are well-intentioned,
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_03: but they don't really have a main point.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_03: And they're very...
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_03: My one brother knew a pastor, and he'd say he's a really nice guy, but he's very flighty.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_03: And he was the guy that used to say he never lands the plane.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_03: And then at times when you have a preacher here who's like kind of hemming and
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_03: hawing about what he's getting around at and not really straight and to the point either,
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_03: not delivering things,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_03: precisely,
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_03: that can also happen too.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: I do think,
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: obviously the people have something to do with it,
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: but the preachers can always,
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_03: like I'm saying here,
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_03: have the veracity,
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_03: showing that it's important,
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: showing that in your tone,
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_03: not saying,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: hey—
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: you all really need to get saved,
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_03: and it's a terrible world out there,
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_03: and I hope you guys will listen to Jesus and read your Bible.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's got to have some energy in it,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_03: but obviously not over-examined,
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: because I've seen theatrics too,
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_03: which can actually go against it.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_03: And then, I mean, you also have, we can go down different categories here, but you also have, I think,
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_03: the preachers that like to make things about themselves or about life in general,
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_03: and it's almost these general things,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: not very biblically based,
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: and then sometimes people will say,
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know where he was going with that,
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: and people kind of get lost in that as well.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of different ways it plays in.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's sometimes the preacher themselves, but I think a lot of the people, too.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, all of those things, I think, play into it, and I think there's this general notion that
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: you can even look at it,
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think I looked at it one time,
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: where,
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: preaching,
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: if you look at preach in a dictionary,
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: one of the most common,
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: alternate definitions is the idea of,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: someone,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: lecturing you.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: that plays into this old idea where,
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: the preacher would be very fiery,
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: that fire and brimstone image of a preacher,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: which gets into,
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: something that's
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: so necessary to keep in balance and in check,
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: because I don't,
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: like you were saying,
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: or you were hinting at,
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: we shouldn't strive to be,
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Jonathan Edwards,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: who was notorious,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: at least some have said,
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: those who listen to Jonathan Edwards,
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: would just get up and read in a monotone voice his sermons,
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: which I can't imagine listening to,
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: but God still did stuff through it.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, sure, right, right, right.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: We shouldn't strive for that, but nor should we strive for
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: basically equating preaching to yelling and preaching to especially yelling at the
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: people that are sitting in front of us and so like there's these really divergent
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: poles on this sort of spectrum we could say of emotion where you're either
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: unemotional or you're too emotional you're on
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_00: sort of unpassionate or too passionate,
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: and I think that striking the balance is not trying to,
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: come up with a formula,
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: but it kind of gets back to the heart of worship when we're talking about singing.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: The heart of worship when we're talking about preaching is, again, coming back to the heart.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you were hinting at
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: and as we've hinted at, the sermon should come out of a preacher's own experience of the text.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that will often drive how a sermon both should be put together and delivered.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that, I think, should be the driving factor of the sermon event, so to speak, is how has a
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: A preacher themselves,
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: the preacher himself experienced this text in a way that he's as he's been engaging
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: with it through study,
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: through the Holy Spirit.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then out of that sort of overflow comes the way in which he presents that same message.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: But again, I think that'll save.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: a lot of this rhetoric of just like yelling and pointing and shouting,
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: because that I think has done just one of the most grave disservices to the church.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think that we could ever imagine.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_03: And there's actually, again, I don't like to drop names or somebody local.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_03: Even my one friend says, man, this guy is angry.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a guy around basically all of his videos is shouting things.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I probably tried to do the energy and the high energy thing.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_03: But basically this,
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_03: the guy is telling me,
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_03: it's like,
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_03: man,
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_03: this guy seems like mentally unstable and angry.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_03: And then you go back and you watch it in that lens of maybe this guy in the
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: statement is like,
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: wow,
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: this sounds like a crazy guy.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_03: And it's funny,
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: and I know he's trying to get to a good point,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: and they're yelling and trying to get reactions from people.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I get why they're trying to get engagement,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: but at the same time,
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_03: it's just,
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_03: like you said,
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_03: it doesn't do a good service to the people when you're preaching like that,
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_03: nor does,
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_03: like I said,
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_03: monotone,
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_03: which was a lot more in the past than it is today.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: There's less of them now,
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: and there's probably more shouters and theatrical guys that are doing little
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_03: theater and stuff like that on there.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_03: stages or whatever.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah,
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_03: I think it just goes back to,
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_03: and I think you were kind of hinted at it,
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_03: I think what would solve all this is just spending time with the Holy Spirit.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_03: If he's the one guiding all this,
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: and I think you can probably tell sometimes when you look at these guys,
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_03: is who was preparing the service and
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_03: them or the Holy Spirit,
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_03: how much time do they spend praying and asking God to reveal something in the text?
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_03: Because I know every pastor at some point is like, hey, I've read this one before.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to go read it again.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_03: But it's like there's got to be something new in there that God wants you to say if
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_03: you've already preached on this before.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: So you should probably ask him.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_03: You should probably be praying a lot.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I think a lot of times it can happen.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_03: It's like they go back to, they might not be thinking that.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm sure they pray here and there.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_03: But I might be thinking, like, how am I going to make this exciting with the worship?
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: And what worship song do I want to play right before I come on stage that I can sing that's in my range?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_03: I've seen this happen, by the way.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's kind of crazy.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_03: Where,
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_03: these kind of things,
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_03: where it's all these,
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_03: or it can happen sometimes in a chaotic,
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_03: we all know in a chaotic whirlwind,
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_03: you might have less time prepared than you usually would.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_03: But sometimes I think there's so many times where the preacher is so,
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: quote,
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: unquote,
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_03: familiar with the Bible that they'll spend 20 to 30 minutes a week
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_03: on it,
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: and they'll do the other stuff,
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: and they'll spend,
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_03: I know this,
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: and I'll do,
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: and you can,
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_03: you can tell when somebody's very lackluster,
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_03: and they haven't been,
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_03: searching their hearts of how have I experienced,
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: like you're saying,
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: how have I experienced in my life,
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_03: how can I get this out to people,
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_03: and asking God,
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_03: it's very like,
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_03: oh,
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_03: hey,
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_03: I have another one coming up Sunday,
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: and I've got,
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_03: I've got a lot of things to do,
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_03: and I have this coming up,
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_03: so I can probably get this done in 30 minutes,
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_03: and deliver a message,
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: and
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: Even if it was a really good message, I think it's still a disservice.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_03: You can still in 30 minutes study if you're a good enough preacher.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_03: Come out where somebody will say, that was really great and that really touched my heart.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_03: And you've got to be careful not to let it get to you.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_03: But it could to people.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: It could get to a preacher to think that was okay.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: But it's not.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_03: Even if a person or two says, that was great.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, yeah, but you still did a disservice to God.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_03: Because you studied maybe even less than you talked.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: Or studied as much as you talked.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_03: And that's never going to add anything to it.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was once...
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: In a church where the preacher got up on a Sunday morning and he admitted in front
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: of the whole congregation that he didn't start preparing his sermon until Saturday night.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Which, I don't know if that's like your work week or something.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what in the world?
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it just, yeah, it just screams you're ill-prepared.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that ill-preparedness doesn't do your people a service,
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: but neither does it honor God,
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: which again,
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: as you were hinting at,
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: the music is always supposed to be honoring God just as much as the preaching is.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: And the preaching should come out of God's word,
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: not our own opinions,
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: not our own sort of ideas or preferences.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: But I think this...
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: Notion that sometimes preachers get that they have like the louder that they get
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: that that makes them more convincing,
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: is actually a misguided notion.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I also think that's where we lead into the.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: somewhat of like manipulative preachers.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think the,
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like your word,
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: the theatrical sort of preacher,
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: the very loud,
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: bombastic,
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: fire and brimstone sort of preacher.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: You're just,
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: in a way,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: and I don't have like data or analytics,
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: but I think by and large,
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: anecdotally,
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think that preacher is opening themselves up to becoming somewhat manipulative
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: with what they say more often than not.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, absolutely.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_03: And you can see, I've seen in the past anyway.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_03: where a pastor can try to use this almost for an agenda,
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: whether it's sometimes politics-pointed or whether it's their own agenda in the
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_03: church of what they want to happen.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: I have seen it all,
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_03: essentially,
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: where this whole sermon might have been devised for an alternative reason and most
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_03: definitely did not ask God what they wanted to preach,
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_03: and they determined what they were going to preach that Sunday.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: Like I said, I've seen...
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: very things pointed out, and you can just tell.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: And when I've been in church leadership,
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_03: then you see things that happen during the week or two,
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: and then the next thing you know,
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: the next sermon has a lot to do with what just happened,
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: and it was never mentioned.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: It was all these undertones, like, what in the world?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_03: And then you got these, you know, all kinds of stuff where the other manipulation is...
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_03: Probably playing into the theatrics again and having to keep up with the worship.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_03: This is where you get the feel-good slash prosperity preachers.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_03: Because,
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_03: man,
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_03: if the worship band did this,
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_03: and my words can only do so much,
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_03: what if I tell them that God has something for them?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_03: They're probably going to listen.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_03: And you see that all the time.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: You're going to want to listen to this message because I think by the end you're
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_03: going to realize God has something special for you in your life.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, well, yeah, special, something special.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_03: But I think you're trying to get them to hint at some like financial gain or some breakthrough in life.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I know Joel Osteen gets picked on a lot because he's like the poster boy for this stuff.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_03: But he's not the only one.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_03: And they're out here basically the feel-good message.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I'll go back to what I probably mentioned in past episodes where I was told one
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_03: time one of my sermons would be a lot better Wednesday because people might not
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: feel so good leaving the doors.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, well, I'm not going to make them feel awful, but we all are sinners and we have work to do.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_03: And we can't just make it all fluffy and, you know, rainbows and puppy dogs.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_03: So people have good.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously,
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not,
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not going to,
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_03: preach on something awful and really try to make them feel bad.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_03: That's not the point of it.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_03: But the point was, hey, God really put this on my heart.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_03: I'd like to share this.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, hey, I without saying it like, hey, we'll lose it.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: We'll lose sales.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_03: Essentially, we'll lose sales if you go that route.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_03: If you start doing this, you can chase away customers.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's what I heard.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, it wasn't said that, but my analysis brain was like, I see what's happening here.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that's – yeah, that's such a good point to make.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: Again, it comes back to –
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_00: What is the focus and what is driving?
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think we talked about this in the very first conversation that we had.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: What is driving the authority?
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: What's being presented and promoted as the authoritative word?
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: Is it the preachers or is it the word of God?
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: And again, everything is downstream of God's authority, not the preacher's authority.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: And if that's happening,
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: how dare a preacher try to be manipulative with his appeal to the people to make
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: some sort of change or to,
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: God forbid,
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: drop money in the offering plate?
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: Those sort of appeals, you know…
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying you should never talk about money or giving,
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: but I also would say that that's been something that's so overused.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: But that sort of those sort of tactics,
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think ultimately do what you hope that they will do,
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: which is actually cultivate people that are true disciples of God.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: They are following God.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: peer pressure,
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: perhaps,
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: or they are being manipulated by preachers who are very cunning and very good communicators.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: where instead they should be being changed by the Word of God, not by something that the preacher says.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: No,
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_03: absolutely,
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_03: and I think that's why you see,
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_03: and we pick on megachurches a lot,
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_03: I get it,
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_03: usually because they're the highest,
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_03: they're the biggest offenders in this.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_03: Not all of them, but a good portion.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_03: And it's probably because once you get to those numbers of,
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_03: 30 or 50,000 people,
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_03: out in Houston,
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_03: you pack them into a stadium or whatever like this,
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: and you get to those numbers...
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think what you're seeing is,
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: again,
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think we're going back to,
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_03: they're doing a really good job of entertaining people.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_03: They're doing a really good job of selling something to people.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why the people come.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's why they're giving $600,000 a Sunday or whatever.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_03: But what you'll have at those churches, I think...
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I wouldn't be okay with this over them, but maybe they are.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_03: If they're living for this world, they're okay with it.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_03: But the percentage of authentic Christians must be a very low percentage.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_03: Once you get to those numbers, you can't even be at 50%.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not even saying, you know, no church is 100%.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_03: But as you start getting this, you have to start asking yourself,
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_03: Why am I doing this?
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_03: Why do I want people to come here?
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_03: Do I want people to come here so I can keep a job and we can grow staff and I can
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_03: have more people,
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_03: we're doing that?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_03: Or am I here to help people become,
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_03: more centered in God,
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_03: understand the word so they can grow,
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_03: so they can help make disciples of other people?
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it really comes down to that.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_03: What's the motive of this?
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_03: And I always joke around about the ABCs, but it's so true.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_03: Attendance, buildings, and cash is what a lot of people deal with.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_03: Attendance, buildings, and cash.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, if that's your priority, you can get really good numbers.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_03: But you're going to lose – like if your other real priority of getting people to be
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_03: true believers of God and walk out the life,
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_03: that might actually get left in the dust if you don't factor that in.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean not – maybe this is our theme today,
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: but you're losing the heart of worship when you start getting into – I'm going to
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: use this word because I was thinking about it as you were talking.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: When you start peddling the gospel –
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: that's when you start losing the heart of worship.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that can come out in the preaching turning into entertainment or, God forbid, screaming and shouting.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: Or that can look like the music being turned into a concert.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I was thinking about that in terms of what Paul says.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: In 2 Corinthians 2, verse 17.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that part where he's talking about how Christ leads them in triumphal
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: procession and all that stuff.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: But in verse 17, I love this.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: He says,
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: this is Paul,
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: quote,
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: For we are not like so many peddlers of God's word,
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: but as men of sincerity,
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: as commissioned by God in the sight of God,
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: we speak in Christ,
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: end quote.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think...
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: That is kind of a really good encapsulation of what we've been talking about,
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: not only in this particular conversation,
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_00: but others,
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: which is the idea of resisting the urge to peddle the word,
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: which has all these connotations.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_00: I often think of those old snake oil salesmen.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: They're just peddling something to put stuff in their own pockets.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: But as Paul is saying,
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: we've been given a God-ordained commission,
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: an appointment,
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: and we're speaking out of sincerity,
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: which then gets back to what we talked about where they've had the word done to them,
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: and now they are delivering that same word to the people,
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: and they're speaking in Christ.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: They're speaking the words that either tend to, relate to,
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: or convey who Christ is and his message for them.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's who they are.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's their mission.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's their message.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's all that they have been authorized for.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: to speak.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what Paul is saying,
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: as he said in 1 Corinthians 2-2,
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: where he says,
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: for I decide to know nothing among you except Christ and Him crucified.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's all getting to the same thing, which is the fact that these are not Paul's ideas.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: These are God's ideas for the sake of His church.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: And more often than not, what you're seeing in some modern church contexts, it's sort of this
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_00: synergism that's happening between the ideas of man and where God wants them to go.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's sometimes,
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: more often than not,
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: it's those man-made ideas that are winning out,
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: as opposed to what the Spirit is actually urging or leading them to do,
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_00: if I can say it that way.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_03: And there's even probably some scriptural basis for everything we're talking about,
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_03: because it reminds me of...
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: The passage, I think it's in Acts, you know, where the man wants to buy the power.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_03: He wants to give money.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_03: He's like, you can't buy this.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_03: And the same way why these preachers maybe aren't, you know, wanting to offer money for this power.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_03: In a way, that's what they're kind of doing.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_03: And what Paul's getting at is a great scripture that you referred to,
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_03: but it's placed perfectly into this,
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_03: is like,
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_03: listen,
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_03: I'm out here to make nothing off of this.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like,
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: if you want to be a true preacher of the gospel,
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_03: are you okay with making nothing and actually maybe even worse,
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_03: it costing you something to do that?
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_03: How many preachers would actually allow it to cost them to do this versus how many
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_03: are out there,
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_03: um,
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_03: doing it for gain.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_03: And what's unfortunate is, yeah, there's probably way more doing it for gain.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, although there's still probably a really good portion of us out here trying to authentically do it.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: But the problem is the false prophets and these kinds of people are the same reason
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_03: that you and I have to explain to people,
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_03: Hey,
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_03: forget everything you learned about church in the past let's talk right now one on
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_03: one and let's talk about what it really means we have to do that because of these
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_03: kind of things where people are not willing to not gain from preaching the gospel
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: which is counterintuitive to everything scripture says yeah but I think then again
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: also
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: If going back to what Paul is saying here, he says we're men of sincerity.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: That is, we could say, an emotional word.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: He is saying that we are going to do this with sincere hearts.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: But and this is sometimes where I wish we could hear like I wish we could hear how
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: Paul preached sincerely.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: he always talks about himself as not having eloquence or or like great ability to speak,
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: which always confuses me because he was so highly educated.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I would love to have heard him preach or Peter on the day of Pentecost.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how did they convey this?
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: What did it sound like?
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because I also think, you know, we talked about, you know.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: preaching and singing shouldn't necessarily be emotional,
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: but that doesn't mean that emotions don't play a part.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so,
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: and this is where it gets kind of tricky because the emotions can be manipulated as
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: we talked about,
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: and they can be preyed upon.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: But I also don't think that,
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: this gets back to sermon delivery,
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_00: that we need to be unemotional Stoics when we deliver the word.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've been known for a time or two to,
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: almost start crying when I preach.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I can truly say that that's not because I'm trying to make a good TikTok.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: You're not trying to get a good reel out there for a million hits.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: Again,
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: it's being conveyed out of my own emotion in terms of how the Spirit has brought
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: this word to bear upon my own life.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that is what I'm trying to convey.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like that is the heart of worship, my own private worship.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then that is being just poured out.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: I once heard at a conference a long time ago,
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: and I forget who was actually the speaker,
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: but he said something to the effect of like a sermon is the overflow of the prayer closet,
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: so to speak.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_00: So like a preacher's...
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_00: prayer life,
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: and as he engages in the text,
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: obviously,
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: the overflow of that is where the sermon kind of comes out of.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: All of which is saying,
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: Preaching can have emotions,
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: and it should,
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: but they should come,
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_00: out of the heart of worship,
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: not out of some sense of trying to get people to have a certain reaction or what
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: have you.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_03: Right, the authenticity.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_03: It goes back to how authentic was this person and this preacher this whole week
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_03: before the sermon on Sunday?
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_03: Where were they at all week?
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_03: And you'll be able to tell.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_03: You can't lie about, like, oh, hey, I was studying and praying all week.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_03: You might be able to lie to a few people, but over time, it's just like anything else.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_03: The reason out there is why sometimes I talk to agnostic or whatever who's against
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_03: Christianity or whatever,
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_03: and then I tell them something that kind of intrigues them is because I think they notice,
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_03: wait a minute,
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_03: all the things that the world told me was the truth,
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_03: I kind of knew it wasn't,
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_03: but I wanted it to be.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_03: But what you just said...
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_03: actually off like actually makes real sense and you're not just saying this to
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_03: manipulate me you actually believe what you're telling me and it's actually making
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_03: sense and it's I do really believe it's because anybody can spot a fake deep down
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_03: you can spot a fake when you see one just like in I've been to churches where I can
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_03: spot there's a fake in the church you know I can spot it when I see it just like
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_03: you can with somebody telling you whatever whatever they're telling you and I think
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_03: people can see the truth for what it really is you can tell when you've heard the
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_03: truth versus what you can tell when you've actually heard a lie and
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_03: It's the same thing, I think, up there on a Sunday morning.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_03: Now, infant Christians, they're not going to be able to tell.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's the ones we're trying to protect in these situations.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_03: Because they're the emotional ones that think that it's okay,
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_03: and because they just haven't been taught yet.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_03: And they're seriously just vulnerable, like an infant really would be.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_03: But I think anybody who's a true believer,
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_03: who's in the Word,
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_03: who's in prayer,
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_03: is going to spot a phony in the front,
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_03: or at least even be able to tell that
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_03: you know, when they aren't putting their heart into it.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_03: Because like you said, it's really, it flows from the heart.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: And how could you flow from it?
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_03: If you have an empty well, there's really nothing that can flow from that on a Sunday morning.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're just...
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_00: then you are trying to speak out of your own ability, your own sort of eloquence.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: You're not actually relying on the Spirit at all,
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: which,
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: you're getting away from the heart of worship.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't mean to keep reusing that phrase over and over again,
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: but I think that in many senses,
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: the church,
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: and maybe I don't want to overgeneralize,
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: but the church has lost the heart of what worship is about.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_00: And this goes back to what we said at the beginning,
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: We've separated worship into little categories of singing and preaching.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: And one is exciting and one is viewed as dull and all that kind of stuff.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: But the heart of worship is coming into communion with the God of the universe,
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: which he has ordained to happen through his word and through his spirit.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: Which, if you just stop, I think many times we...
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe I don't want to like go on a tangent of like, oh, our culture and back in my day.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: But like there's a sense in which we are so busy as a people that.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_00: we don't actually stop and think about what's happening in worship,
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: which is quite literally the God of the universe communing with people through word
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: and spirit.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, depending on your view of the sacraments, he's communing with you through those as well.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_00: But the same notion is there that the creator, the redeemer is,
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: He is speaking to his people in this service that is God-ordained.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's biblically based and divinely sort of mandated.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: And just to stop and think about that should just leave us in awe.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: It should just leave us with this holy wonder of,
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: I can't believe this is happening,
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_00: and I'm so glad that it is.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's the big thing is like,
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_03: we don't know,
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_03: but what's going through somebody's head out there in the...
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_03: you know the sanctuary or the worship place when they're singing these words
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_03: sometimes you know they're even just they might like the psalm but they're even
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_03: singing the words they're not even thinking about it whereas like what you're
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_03: saying if they would really just stop and consider like wait this is even crazy
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_03: like sometimes I even have to stop myself and say like wait a minute
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_03: Why does God even listen to me?
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_03: Why does he even let me ask?
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_03: Why does he even let me talk to him?
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_03: Every once in a while, it actually catches me off.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_03: Why are you listening to me right now?
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_03: I'm praying to you, and you actually want to listen.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_03: This is crazy.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_03: Don't you have other things to do?
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_03: I've heard it painted perfectly.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_03: Could you imagine if your dad was a billionaire CEO?
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_03: And you got to talk to him.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_03: Everybody else would think, like, I can't believe he talked to you.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody else would expect to talk to him because he's this guy, high up status.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_03: But yet God, we don't always think, like, how crazy is this that he's the boss of bosses.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_03: He made this whole universe and he's checking in on you.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_03: And he wants you to talk to him.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I think in those situations when you're in worship.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_03: And you're taking this all in like, wow, this music, I'm singing it to the creator.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_03: He's hearing it.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_03: He's appreciating it.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to get to hear what he says to me later in the word.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_03: If you get emotional on that, that is authentic emotion because your mind's in the right spot.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_03: But it's really hard for me to guess why somebody's crying out there.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_03: Are they crying because it reminded them of their dead dog?
• 55:01
  SPEAKER_03: And the song says about being gone.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_03: And now they're thinking of, you know, a little, you know, who knows.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like,
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_03: makes you wonder,
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_03: but there are people out there who like every once in a while,
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_03: there's probably not always,
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_03: but every once in a while,
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_03: somebody might get struck with like,
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_03: wow,
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_03: this is really amazing what we're doing right here.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_03: And that we're corporately gathering and we're all able to synchronize for the Lord.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_03: So it just really goes back down.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_03: There can be real emotion,
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_03: but it just,
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_03: it's really where their minds and are they understanding what the worship is?
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_03: really is,
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_03: which is include,
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_03: like we're saying,
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_03: don't segregate it out,
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_03: say,
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_03: hey,
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_03: I don't like the worship,
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_03: I don't like,
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_03: like,
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_03: the preaching's okay.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, no, that is the worship involved.
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_03: You don't like the preaching, you don't like the worship.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: as you were,
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_00: what you were saying is definitely biblical in the sense of,
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: if you could,
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: we've referenced them before,
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: the revival under Hezekiah or the revival under Ezra
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: Both of them contain this definite emotional response, but it's a response to the Word of God preached.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if they were singing at those services.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: There may have been.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_00: But regardless...
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: They were preaching the word of law,
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: and then there was this emotional response of faith to God's word being preached,
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: which is just this amazing sort of paradigm,
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: and it gives us a glimpse into how God works through his preached word.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: He can work amazing wonders where he brings people to a sense of who they are and
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: into a sense of what God has done and will do for them through nothing but the
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: preached word of God.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: of his truth and of his,
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_00: of his grace,
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_00: which again,
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_00: as the prophet Matt Redmond said,
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: this brings us back to the heart of worship,
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: which is,
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_00: it's all about you.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's all about you, Jesus.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_03: Amen.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_03: Amen.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's interesting.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_03: And it goes to show you too, with Hezekiah and Ezra references that it can be done.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_03: The word can draw people in.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_03: It can.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_03: Because those people could have went back to their tents and said, hey, I'm good.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just going to stay out here.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_03: I'm not really into that stuff.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_03: Let me know when the harps are out.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_03: But they didn't.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_03: They all there, and I'm sure they hung on every word, and there was a real reaction.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_03: And again, I don't think that had anything to do with Hezekiah or Ezra.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_03: Other than their obedience to let the Spirit flow out.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_03: And that was really the true, again, we're getting right back.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_03: The reason that was so effective was because the Holy Spirit was there flowing out
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_03: and orchestrating it all.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't manufactured by Ezra or Hezekiah.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_03: And that can happen again as long as you tap into the Holy Spirit during the week
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_03: and allow Him to flow out in the same way.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_03: You really can reach people without the fancy.
• 57:33
  SPEAKER_00: You trust the Word and you allow the Spirit to do the work.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you've been blessed by this episode.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: I hope it was an encouragement to you to hear us chat about all these different topics.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: I've included a couple of resources in the notes.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_00: Make sure you check those out.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise,
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: if you haven't already,
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_00: please subscribe to Ministry Minded on Apple,
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: Spotify,
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: or on Substack,
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: wherever you get your podcasts.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_00: I am so appreciative of all of your encouragement and support.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: So just thank you.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for all that you...
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: have done to just make me feel supported.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for that and I'll see you on the next episode.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: Blessings.