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What One Missionary Learned After a Lifetime of Serving Christ · Crusade with Me

• 0:10
  Today I'm honored to welcome Reverend Schumacher
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  to crusade with me. I've had the opportunity
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  to listen to several of his homilies, and they've
• 0:17
  consistently challenged and encouraged me in
• 0:19
  my own walk with Christ. He also spent nearly
• 0:23
  a decade serving in the missions in Africa alongside
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  his family, so I know he has a wealth of experience
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  and wisdom to share. But Pastor, thank you so
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  much for talking, taking the time to be here
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  today, and it is a real privilege to have you
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  on the program. Okay, how are you, Pastor? I'm
• 0:46
  doing well today. Beautiful day outside, beautiful
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  day inside. It is, it is. And we've been discussing
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  for a little bit of time, about an hour and a
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  half prior to sitting down and actually getting
• 1:01
  to work. That's true. That's okay, that's all
• 1:05
  part of it. It is, it is. It's a lot of just
• 1:07
  good conversation. And you were telling a little
• 1:10
  bit of your history to Kathy and I. And what
• 1:16
  I didn't hear in your history was that you are
• 1:19
  a German -German. I mean, you're an American.
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  You're an American. You're ancestry -wise. You're
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  German -German. Correct. But you are Roman Catholic
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  Germans, correct? Well, yes, partly. My Schumacher
• 1:36
  ancestors came over from Germany as Catholics.
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  OK. And as they settled in Missouri, the state
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  of Missouri, where I'm from, they settled and
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  the family settled. They got busy with farming.
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  They got busy with limestone mining and block
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  laying and whatnot. And there was no Catholic
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  Church. They were all Lutheran Churches. And
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  because they were Lutheran Churches, that's where
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  they went. That makes a lot of sense. And you
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  know, I didn't grow up Lutheran, right? I mean,
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  we had that conversation. And so for me, I remember
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  the first time, I went to a Lutheran church twice
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  before Kathy came with. And the third time I
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  went, I took Kathy, I said, oh, now you gotta
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  come to church with me. So she came, and I remember
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  getting in our car leaving, and I'm trying to
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  pull out onto the highway to leave the church
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  building parking lot. And I look this way to
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  look for traffic and I catch her staring at me.
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  And I'm like, what? And she says, you wanna become
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  Catholic? Is what she said after leaving the
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  worship service. From our perspective at that
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  time, that was very Catholic -esque. And then
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  I did tell you a story about, I think the role
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  of my boss, he's a young man, younger than I,
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  significantly. He's a devout Roman Catholic,
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  and he has taught me so much about the things
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  at least to be respectful of about the Roman
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  Catholicism. And I've been trying to educate
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  him about Lutheranism, and it's interesting what
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  people don't know, I'll be candid. And so he's
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  shocked when he found out that, oh, you believe
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  in the real presence? He said, I thought Protestants...
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  and I can't stand that term, you know. But because
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  that has its place but not in Lutheranism. Well,
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  I agree, I agree. But in a Roman Catholic's mind,
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  if it's not Roman Catholic, then it's Protestant.
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  So when I was joking really with him and his
• 3:59
  boss, who's the president of the company and
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  who's also a devout Catholic and said, And I
• 4:04
  was questioned about me being Catholic, and I
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  said, yes, I belonged to the true Catholic Church.
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  I thought that was a terrible joke, a decision
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  at that time. I thought, oh, this guy could terminate
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  me in a minute. And he did not look happy with
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  my answer when he found out that I was truly
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  Lutheran, so. But let me ask you, how did you
• 4:28
  get to become a pastor? What did that look like?
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  How did that calling happen to you? That's a
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  way to say. That's a good way to put it. And
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  it happened when I was about six or seven years
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  old. I grew up in a small town in Missouri, Concordia,
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  Missouri, a very German Lutheran community. In
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  fact, our church membership was actually larger
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  than the town's population because the rural
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  area and all the farmers. And so we had a large
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  Lutheran church, St. Paul's Lutheran Church,
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  and St. Paul's Lutheran grade school, to which
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  I attended the grade school. And I was in, I
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  think it was first grade, and we happened to
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  have a missionary come one Sunday for a visit.
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  And instead of Sunday school, we had his presentation.
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  And being in first grade, we got to sit in the
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  front row. And he started talking about the people
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  of Africa and how their culture, meaning how
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  they live and how they do things and even how
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  they speak, is different. And he also talked
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  about the great need to tell them about Jesus.
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  He also had artifacts with him, you know, and
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  told us how they used tools or cooking materials,
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  this or that. And it just... stuck in my mind
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  and in my heart. And so, you know, being in a
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  small town, we weren't that far. We were probably
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  maybe three blocks away from the church. So after
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  Sunday school and after church, the late service
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  we went to, I remember going home and my mother
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  met us at the door. And as I went in the back
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  door, I said, Mom, I know what I want to be when
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  I grow up. And she said, and what's that? And
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  I said, I want to be a pastor and a missionary
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  to Africa. She smiled at me, let me in the door,
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  and she said, well, that's fine. Well, it made
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  her parents very happy because from her side
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  of the family, there were several pastors already,
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  you know, different generations of pastors. And
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  so one of her sons, one of her four sons, there
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  were eight kids in my family, four boys, four
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  girls. One of her sons wanted to be a pastor.
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  That was just great. Sure. That was great. I
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  mean, you can imagine a mother's joy. Exactly,
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  exactly. And she grew up in the church and her
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  family was very diligent about worship. And so
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  that kind of began. And so being in a parochial
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  school, going through confirmation classes and
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  then going as I was in eighth grade, confirmed,
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  then my pastor at that time talked to me about
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  becoming a pastor in eighth grade. Okay. And
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  I said, well, that's been in the back of my mind
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  since I was in first grade. And so we had my
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  home congregation actually started, I think it
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  was back in 1883. They started what was then
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  a preparatory school for the ministry, and it
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  was called St. Paul's College. And so then through
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  time, the name changed to St. Paul's College
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  and College High. And so it was a four -year
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  high school, a two -year junior college. And
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  it was actually a prep school for the ministry.
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  So you would end up going to St. Paul's in the
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  early days, you would go there for six years.
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  And then you would go on to the seminary for
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  four years. They didn't have the senior colleges
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  back in those days. And I'm talking, you know,
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  the early 40s, 30s, you know. Sure, sure, sure.
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  But then when, you know, colleges grew and academics
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  developed, programs grew in all these universities
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  and colleges, then it also at our seminaries
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  became a four year institution. And to get in,
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  you needed to have an undergrad degree. And so
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  but St. Paul's never changed. And until after
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  I left, thank goodness. But anyway, so I went
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  to St. Paul's then based upon my pastor's invitation
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  and also his assistance. He was able to find
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  a scholarship to help me go there. Now granted,
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  I was only what they called the day student.
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  I didn't board there because I only lived a block
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  away. So, you know, I stayed at home, but I went
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  to the school there. And it was kind of, you
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  know, you're there to study to either be a pastor
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  or a teacher. Well, at that time, this was in
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  the late 60s, early 70s. And so times were changing
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  and you had more and more people coming there
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  just for general education. And so I took the
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  track of pre -ministering. So I took two years
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  of German and I took my religion classes. And
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  then, you know, just went on with the idea that
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  I was going to be a pastor. Well, I became in
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  my third year there in my junior year of high
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  school. They started the academic program where
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  you could take college courses for both high
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  school and college credit. Yeah. Hey. You know,
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  this is a good way to get out of school quick.
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  And so I started took some classes in my junior
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  year, my senior year, and I was just short one
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  class of having my first year of college done
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  by the time I graduated from high school. And
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  so, you know, I thought this is great. And I
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  met my wife at that time. We were we had been
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  dating and I got thinking, well, she was going
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  to go on to Seward. Nebraska to become a teacher
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  and a Lutheran school teacher. And I will, you
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  know, my plan was to go to the senior college,
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  to go to the seminary. And I got thinking, do
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  I really want to go to school that long? You
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  know, I mean, I really only have three years
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  of college left, but then to go on for more years.
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  And, you know, and I had a math professor. who
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  came to me after class one day, it was geometry
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  class, and he said, I want to talk to you, Mr.
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  Schumacher. I said, oh, yes, sir. And he says,
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  do you have any plans for your future after you
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  leave this institution? I said, well, not for
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  certain yet. He said, well, I think you ought
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  to do something in math. OK, I'll think about
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  it. To which I thought, what a boy. am I doing
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  math? I don't know if I want to be a teacher.
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  I never thought about that. But I did like to
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  build things. I did like to think about construction.
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  And my grandfather taught me a few things. My
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  father taught me some things. You know, at an
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  early age, I was taught how to work with the
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  compressors, you know, and air conditioning and
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  whatnot. And so I kind of enjoyed that. Mechanical.
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  Yeah. Mechanical. So I got to thinking, well,
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  you know, maybe I'll just go to Central Missouri
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  State and do something there for three years
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  and and not go to the same. So and then, you
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  know, my my girlfriend, you know, what do we
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  do? And. Well, so I did. I went to Central Missouri
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  State University and majored in industrial design
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  technology. Okay. And wow, what a fascinating
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  education. Talk about hands -on. Really? Automotive,
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  machine design, you know, CAD -CAM systems were
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  just barely coming in at that time. I mean, they
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  were still kind of futuristic. Sure. But they
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  were starting. And, you know, we still had to
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  take, you know, the Fortran 4, the Cobalt computer
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  languages for computer programming, CNC machines,
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  and boy, all of this was so fascinating to me.
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  And I even loved metal class, you know? I made
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  my own toolbox, made a funnel, you know? I mean,
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  wow, what's better than this, you know? I made
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  a ball -peen hammer that's still in my toolbox
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  out there with a gnarled handle. I know. So needless
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  to say, I went that track. My wife and I got
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  married. I worked for an engineer. What year
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  was that? When we got married? Yeah. Well, it
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  was 50 years ago. This summer. Awesome. August
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  7th of 1976. And I say that, whoops, because
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  my wife's birthday is the 11th. Sometimes I get
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  confused. That is awesome, you know, and I'm
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  not and we're not there yet right now you're
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  in August You'll be celebrating your 50th. So
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  I hope there's a big shindig going on There kind
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  of is we have three children ten grandchildren
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  to live in a Two of our children live in in Nevada
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  with six of our grandkids And the other child
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  lives in Minnesota with four of our grandkids.
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  And they're all coming to our house, in fact,
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  next week. Excellent. And they're going to spend
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  a week with us. My wife says I want everybody
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  to come home. So we're going to celebrate a little
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  early. It's OK. Mainly because our kids are teachers.
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  They have responsibilities. That's awesome. At
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  the end of September, Kathy and I will be celebrating
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  our 40th. Yes, so I am intrigued because, you
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  know, we share something in common, and that
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  is, sadly, we are in a small club. There are
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  people celebrating 30 plus years of marriage
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  to the same person. That group continues to shrink,
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  and that's sad, very sad in my mind. And I feel
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  like it's an honor to be part of a club about
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  marriage. in that test of time, right? There's
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  a testament in my mind. You're absolutely right.
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  And you know, it was through that marriage, well,
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  we got married, we went to Des Moines, Iowa,
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  where Cindy was called from Seward in order to
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  start a preschool at a Lutheran church. And so
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  we went to Hope Lutheran Church in northeast
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  Des Moines. She started up the preschool there.
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  I mean, she had, I think one year she had like
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  65 kids. Wow. in different classes, but all these
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  different kids. Well, we were in the church.
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  We met a lot of people our age, and we connected
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  with them through interests and things like that
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  in the church. We developed kind of a young men's
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  group. It wasn't organized or anything, but we'd
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  just get together. We'd go to church. We had
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  kind of a half court. um basketball and in the
• 16:01
  winter time we'd go do that in the summer time
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  we'd be outside playing softball volleyball you
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  know and in the fall we'd even you know play
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  touch a little rougher football and uh but it
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  was always interesting because you know our our
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  friend group if you will just grew and grew and
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  grew and how it grew was kind of through that
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  preschool and so oh because they killed children
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  Drew you together. Yes, kind of in kind of a
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  roundabout way. I had been active in the church.
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  I actually was choir director and I was asked
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  to serve on the board of evangelism. And our
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  evangelism group then grew and then I was asked
• 16:46
  to be the chairman one year. Fine. And so what
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  I started doing was taking the names from our
• 16:54
  preschool. from my wife who, you know, to visit
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  all the families in the preschool, to make a
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  church visit for all the families. Unbelievable
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  how many were not members. Sure, absolutely.
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  And how many people were open to coming to church.
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  They loved the preschool. They loved the teacher.
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  I said, well, why? Of course, you're biased.
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  Right, right. And the church grew and we kept
• 17:23
  growing. And so - And you didn't study marketing
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  and any of your - No, no. Because I'm gonna be
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  honest with you, I've done a lot of things in
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  my life and my career to earn a living or attempt
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  to earn a living. And when we were early married
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  before I started in the mills, I got hooked up,
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  honestly, with a guy through church who I'm curious,
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  we lost contact. This was close to 40 years ago.
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  So I sold children's books. and encyclopedias,
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  okay? And I made a lot of money doing that initially.
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  But do you know what they did? They bought records
• 18:03
  from hospitals, and this is nationwide, they
• 18:05
  would buy records from hospitals and hold onto
• 18:08
  those records for new births. Would hold onto
• 18:12
  those records for a couple of years. Then they
• 18:15
  would sell them to our company and then we would
• 18:18
  make contact. I would do none of this, right?
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  This was all done corporately behind the scenes.
• 18:25
  And this is how long ago it was when you could
• 18:28
  still have film for a camera, okay? So you could
• 18:32
  win a year's worth of Kodak film for your camera,
• 18:36
  which is brilliant for a new family. Here's the
• 18:40
  film for your camera to take pictures of your
• 18:41
  baby. Or a four -day trip to Disney World, right?
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  That was one of the two things you could, by
• 18:50
  listening to the spiel. which would be me coming
• 18:53
  into your house, and I actually made a lot of
• 18:56
  money. That's not terribly different than what
• 18:59
  you were doing through the preschool of... I
• 19:03
  didn't make a lot of money. Well, no, no, no,
• 19:05
  no, no. I'm just talking about how you got that
• 19:09
  connection. Right, right, right. The connection
• 19:12
  through the preschool. you know, taking the names,
• 19:17
  you know, going and visiting. And at that time,
• 19:20
  you know, you know, we're looking at in mid to
• 19:23
  late 70s and early 80s. And at that time, you
• 19:29
  could go knock on somebody's door and feel safe.
• 19:33
  Yes. Right. Well, I remember we had a couple
• 19:36
  of dogs, you know, that were problems. But, you
• 19:38
  know, for the most part, you know, you can go
• 19:41
  to somebody's door and knock on it. They come
• 19:42
  to the door and answer. And when we told them
• 19:45
  who we were, that we were from, you know, Whole
• 19:47
  Pluton Church and Whole Pluton Preschool, you
• 19:51
  know, could we come in for a visit and just talk?
• 19:54
  And, well, sure. Really a cold knock. Cold knocks.
• 19:57
  I mean, wow. These were all cold knocks. So you're
• 19:59
  telling me in the late 70s, early 80s, Lutherans
• 20:02
  were doing knocking, door knocking campaigns?
• 20:05
  Oh, yes. Oh, yes. That is absolutely shocking.
• 20:08
  And the only reason I say that is because I shared
• 20:10
  a little bit about our past and the background
• 20:13
  that we came through, the churches of Christ.
• 20:16
  And Kathy and I dated all during her high school
• 20:19
  career. And some of our dates, including door
• 20:24
  knocking, all right? We did a lot of that. So
• 20:28
  when we talked about Pastor Rabel, he's a lifelong
• 20:35
  pastor of mine. He's now moved to Texas as a
• 20:40
  congregation in Texas. We had an idea. I don't
• 20:49
  want to get into all that, I'll tell you later.
• 20:52
  But part of that idea was we were going to do
• 20:54
  a door knocking campaign to try to get people
• 20:56
  to come to church because we put together a prayer
• 20:58
  path, which would mean. It's quasi -Romanesque,
• 21:03
  where it's almost like the seven stations of
• 21:05
  the cross, but it's not. It was to eliminate
• 21:09
  noise from your life, and then we had a little
• 21:11
  station set up, and it was a TV with just snow,
• 21:15
  right? So meditate and pray. You know what I'm
• 21:19
  saying? And we went through the sanctuary with
• 21:21
  these different, and then you knelt at the rail
• 21:23
  and you just thought about, this is where we
• 21:26
  receive grace and forgiveness at the... the sacrament
• 21:30
  of the altar. And so we were door knocking to
• 21:33
  try to get people to come through this prayer
• 21:35
  path that we would open up to the public. And
• 21:38
  they looked at us like we were crazy. So I was
• 21:43
  under the impression of Luther and said, never
• 21:44
  done door knocking before, but God bless them.
• 21:48
  Pastor Rabel did, we had Deaconess Eck, she did,
• 21:53
  she's still there. Wonderful, wonderful one.
• 21:56
  And a few others. and we did door knocking campaigns
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  in this small town and each one of us picked
• 22:03
  out a different subdivision to go. But it's interesting
• 22:06
  to me that because this was like their first.
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  And this was in the early 2000s or mid 2000s.
• 22:17
  This was nice. Different era, different time.
• 22:20
  Yes, it is. You're right, you're right. Different
• 22:22
  expectations and different. you know, there were
• 22:27
  a lot of things happened differently as far as
• 22:30
  receiving people at your door. And even today,
• 22:34
  you know. One thing we did was, and this was
• 22:38
  just leading up to, we would do the prayer path
• 22:41
  like the weekend before Palm Sunday. Then you
• 22:47
  had Palm Sunday, then you had Holy Week. And
• 22:53
  we started a tradition, they are still, to my
• 22:56
  knowledge, they're still doing there at that
• 22:58
  congregation is they have a prayer, continuous
• 23:02
  prayer from Friday evening till Sunday morning.
• 23:07
  There is somebody at the building praying over
• 23:13
  prayer requests. And the way we did that was
• 23:16
  we set up card tables, quite honestly, at local
• 23:19
  businesses, and we stood out there and asked
• 23:21
  people to fill out a card to fill out a prayer
• 23:23
  request. and then we took that back to the building,
• 23:27
  and then people came in in shifts around the
• 23:30
  clock and prayed over these prayer requests,
• 23:33
  which was great because now I could produce a
• 23:34
  parochial report saying this many prayers were
• 23:37
  prayed over this many hours for this many different
• 23:39
  people, and it was participated by this many
• 23:41
  people. To my knowledge, they're still doing
• 23:45
  that today. I know they were at least two years
• 23:47
  ago, they were still doing that, and we're going
• 23:48
  back almost 20 years. We couldn't do that by
• 23:55
  the door knocking. We tried. And just people
• 23:58
  would refuse to come to the door. Yeah. But it
• 24:02
  was much more receptive if we were just standing
• 24:05
  there saying, would you mind if you're interested,
• 24:07
  fill out a card, put it in that box. We wouldn't
• 24:10
  look at it. And we had a lot of them. We had
• 24:14
  hundreds and hundreds of them. Oh, I bet. And
• 24:18
  yeah, that was interesting. Yeah. Well, just
• 24:21
  going on here with That process there was during
• 24:25
  that time at Hope and Des Moines that, you know,
• 24:30
  as we had made these visits on these preschool
• 24:34
  members and their families that we also called
• 24:39
  on, you know, other individuals. And so we had,
• 24:44
  interestingly, we had a lady in the congregation,
• 24:48
  a younger lady about our age, and she had two
• 24:51
  daughters. And they were coming to Sunday school,
• 24:55
  vacation Bible school, and the mother was coming.
• 24:58
  And I asked her one day, I said, you know, your
• 25:02
  husband, what about your husband? Oh, no, no,
• 25:07
  no. He doesn't want to come to church. I said,
• 25:10
  well, why not? Well, you know, he was brought
• 25:15
  up different in a different denomination, and
• 25:18
  he wasn't happy because of mystery, yada, yada,
• 25:21
  yada. Right. Long and short of it is I finally
• 25:24
  said, would you mind if we came to visit? You
• 25:26
  know, just come talk. Right. And well, I think
• 25:30
  it would be OK. And so I said, well, we'll be
• 25:34
  there Monday night. And so another gentleman
• 25:37
  and I went and called on him. And we went and
• 25:40
  sat down in his house and we visited with him.
• 25:42
  We started talking and talked about church. We
• 25:45
  talked about belief and faith. And we talked
• 25:49
  about what God does for us. And all of His love
• 25:54
  and His grace comes to us through Christ, forgives
• 25:58
  our sins, gives us the assurance of everlasting
• 26:01
  life. And He sat there and He looked at us. And
• 26:06
  I did not know what that look meant. And my first
• 26:10
  question was, is this a look that's get out of
• 26:14
  my house while you're still walking? So anyway,
• 26:19
  so we visited and everything was fine. Like I
• 26:22
  said, he didn't say much. His wife spoke up and
• 26:25
  this and that. I think she felt a little awkward
• 26:29
  and uncomfortable. And so we knew that it's time
• 26:33
  to leave. So we left. And we had another lady
• 26:37
  that was even a little younger. They had no children.
• 26:41
  And so we called on her. And again, or no, we
• 26:46
  didn't call on her. We talked with her at church
• 26:48
  and asked about her husband. Well, you know,
• 26:50
  he's a radio announcer and he works a lot of
• 26:56
  Sundays. I said, oh, I said, well, you know,
• 26:58
  sometimes I'd like to come over and just meet
• 27:00
  him. You know, would that be possible? Sure.
• 27:03
  Yeah. So again, another member of the evangelism
• 27:07
  team and I, we went and called on on a Monday
• 27:10
  night. And we had a wonderful conversation. And
• 27:14
  again, as he had grown up in the old American
• 27:17
  Lutheran Church, and so he had some skepticisms
• 27:23
  about things. But it was a very interesting visit
• 27:28
  that we had. I'm going to stop you right there.
• 27:30
  American Lutheran Church, is that what today?
• 27:34
  That's not LCMS? No, ALC is what was referred
• 27:38
  to as the American Lutheran Church. And years
• 27:41
  ago, the LCMS and the ALC were in alternate pulpit
• 27:46
  fellowship. OK, OK. However, that changed. And
• 27:50
  the ALC, this would have been back in the late
• 27:53
  70s and the early 80s. And the ALC joined with
• 27:59
  the ELC, the Evangelical Lutheran Church, and
• 28:03
  became what is known today as the ELCA, the Evangelical
• 28:07
  Lutheran Church of America. Okay, okay. And so
• 28:11
  we talked and visited, yada yada, and went and
• 28:14
  left. Well, that gentleman, his first name Mike,
• 28:19
  ended up coming to church with his wife. And
• 28:23
  he kept... He came and he came and he started
• 28:25
  coming to Bible class. He started asking questions,
• 28:29
  brought his Bible and was doing wonderful, you
• 28:32
  know. They kind of became part of our friend
• 28:35
  group. And it was like he had always been there,
• 28:39
  always been part of it. Came up to me and he
• 28:41
  says, you know, you guys coming to visit me,
• 28:44
  that's what I needed. It's kind of like that
• 28:46
  was the push, you know, out of the chair, off
• 28:49
  of the cliff, whatever you want to say that I
• 28:51
  needed. Right, right, right. And I said, well,
• 28:53
  I said, you know, it's not us. It's what God
• 28:55
  does through us. And he said, well, you know,
• 28:59
  would it be OK if I joined your group? I said,
• 29:01
  sure. Well, the first gentleman I told you about,
• 29:04
  we hadn't visited yet because it was Mike and
• 29:08
  I who went to visit. Yes. And his name, first
• 29:12
  name, Lauren. Lauren had more of a Baptist background.
• 29:18
  Sure. And very not a very good church life, and
• 29:25
  a child life. And life had been difficult for
• 29:28
  him. And so, interestingly, as Mike and I had
• 29:33
  called on Warren, a few weeks after that, made
• 29:36
  several other visits. We were sitting in the
• 29:38
  parking lot after we were visiting. We talk about
• 29:41
  the visits, make some notes, and we have a closing
• 29:44
  prayer. Mike would get out, get in his car, and
• 29:47
  then he would go home. Before he did that, he
• 29:50
  said, I got to tell you something, Steve. I decided
• 29:54
  I want to go to the seminary and become a pastor.
• 29:58
  I said, great. That's wonderful. And so he did.
• 30:03
  He came to Concordia Seminary, Concordia Theological
• 30:06
  Seminary here in Fort Wayne and became a pastor.
• 30:10
  And so that happened. And then all of a sudden,
• 30:14
  Lauren started coming to church. came and he
• 30:18
  said, you know, that's exactly what I needed.
• 30:20
  I needed to get pushed off of that bench, off
• 30:22
  of that cliff. And it was that call that you
• 30:25
  guys made that got me coming to church. Again,
• 30:28
  I told him, I said, Lauren, it's not what we
• 30:30
  do, it's what God does through us. So Lauren
• 30:33
  says, can I join your group? I'd like to start
• 30:36
  visiting people and just talk to them and listen
• 30:39
  to them and help them get off that bench. I said,
• 30:42
  sure. So he joined the evangelist group, and
• 30:45
  so Lauren and I made calls. And I'm not talking
• 30:48
  about just days or weeks. I'm talking about several
• 30:51
  years. Yes, yeah. And with Mike, too. And through
• 30:56
  the years then, this all took place. And all
• 31:00
  of a sudden, after Mike had left, and it was
• 31:03
  probably only six months after he had left for
• 31:06
  the seminary, Lauren came and said, I think I
• 31:09
  want to head down that path to become a pastor.
• 31:12
  he had a longer pathway to go, not being a Lutheran.
• 31:16
  And not only that, but Lauren didn't even have
• 31:19
  a college education. So Lauren went, finished,
• 31:24
  he didn't even graduate from high school. So
• 31:27
  he got his GED. He went to one of our Concordia
• 31:30
  universities, got his college degree, went to
• 31:34
  the seminary, and at the age of 45, graduated.
• 31:38
  and became a pastor and served faithfully for
• 31:41
  another 25 years. This is an amazing story, actually.
• 31:46
  So lo and behold, all of this leads up to your
• 31:51
  first question. What got me into the ministry?
• 31:53
  Finally, where I worked in Des Moines, I had
• 31:57
  an engineering firm. We had people that we worked
• 32:00
  with and one of the guys in my department. He
• 32:05
  and I were friends. We traveled to work because
• 32:07
  we didn't live that far apart. We traveled back
• 32:10
  and forth together. And we started talking about
• 32:12
  church. Come to find out he was a Lutheran, but
• 32:14
  didn't go to church. And so Bruce then started
• 32:18
  coming to church. And he joined our church and
• 32:22
  his wife. And they got active again. And but
• 32:27
  then, you know, the hard times hit in the early
• 32:30
  80s with the. We had dirty coal all of a sudden.
• 32:34
  The company I worked for, our main clientele
• 32:37
  were power plants, power, steam, electrical generation
• 32:41
  plants using coal. And that became dirty all
• 32:45
  of a sudden. So now all of a sudden, we had to
• 32:48
  start cutting back on personnel. And as a department
• 32:53
  chair, I had to start letting people go, which
• 32:55
  was the hardest thing I've ever done. It's not
• 32:59
  that they weren't capable of the work. They were.
• 33:02
  It was just the work wasn't there to do. And
• 33:05
  so I really struggled with that. But I did what
• 33:10
  I was expected. We trimmed down. I went home
• 33:12
  and I told my wife, I can't do this. And she
• 33:16
  said, well, what are you going to do? And I said,
• 33:19
  well, I think I'm going to look into going to
• 33:20
  the seminary. And she wasn't in favor of it.
• 33:26
  She said, well, we just bought this house. The
• 33:30
  economy is what it is. Are you sure? And I said,
• 33:33
  well, if it's the Lord's will, it'll all work
• 33:35
  out. Right. So needless to say, we called a realtor
• 33:39
  who happened to be a former preschool parent
• 33:42
  of hers. And he came over and he looked at our
• 33:45
  house and walked in and said, you know what?
• 33:47
  I'll be back next week. I said, OK. Came back
• 33:51
  next week. He sat down at our table with us and
• 33:54
  he told us all the different possibilities. He
• 33:56
  said, you know, it's, it's hard time to try to
• 33:58
  sell a house right now. Yeah, we know. And interest
• 34:01
  rates were high. And he goes through all these
• 34:06
  different options and he says, and none of them
• 34:08
  look good. And then he finally says, I do have
• 34:12
  one more possibility. I leaned over to my wife
• 34:15
  and I whispered, I bet he wants to buy it. She
• 34:20
  looked at me like, yeah, right. And he said,
• 34:23
  well, a friend of mine, we buy homes. And we'd
• 34:28
  like to buy your home. Whoa. We never had a for
• 34:31
  sale sign up in our yard. And we had an asking
• 34:35
  price. He gave it to us. Wow. This went quick.
• 34:40
  And my wife finally said, well, maybe this is
• 34:42
  what you want. Right, right, right. So then we
• 34:45
  found ourselves going to the seminary. In Fort
• 34:49
  Wayne? In Fort Wayne. That's excellent. And Mike
• 34:53
  was just finishing up his four -year degree here
• 34:57
  and Lauren was in his third year. That is something.
• 35:01
  All three of us were here at the same time. Now,
• 35:05
  are you still in contact with Mike or Lauren?
• 35:08
  I'm still in contact with Mike. Lauren has passed
• 35:11
  away. Okay. That is amazing. Something that you
• 35:18
  were talking about there and you said that on
• 35:21
  two different occasions that both those gentlemen
• 35:23
  had used a term. And that's giving me encouragement
• 35:28
  because that's a little bit about what I want
• 35:30
  Crusade With Me to be about. Not that I want
• 35:32
  Crusade With Me to be only for men, but I hope
• 35:36
  that Crusade With Me can be encouraging to men.
• 35:41
  I think a couple of them made reference to being
• 35:43
  that push, that push off the cliff or that push
• 35:46
  to take the next step. what have you. And I hope
• 35:50
  that can just be the seed that plants in the
• 35:53
  head, that then someone else can come along and
• 35:56
  help them physically with that little bit of
• 35:58
  a shove. And that's very, very... So where in
• 36:05
  all of this, because I didn't know this until
• 36:07
  you arrived this morning, where in all of this
• 36:10
  did the whole sign language part start? Not in
• 36:16
  it. Well, it did actually start in part of that,
• 36:20
  but not as a learning process, but as a fear
• 36:25
  process. Our church in Des Moines was right next
• 36:30
  door. We had maybe 20 feet between our driveway
• 36:36
  going to the back parking lot and the driveway
• 36:39
  going to a back parking lot of Lutheran Church
• 36:42
  for the Deaf. I had a classmate in prep school
• 36:49
  who had gone into the ministry and gone into
• 36:51
  deaf ministry. I visited with him back and forth
• 36:57
  when he was learning all this and doing this.
• 36:59
  I said, wow, that's just fascinating. I don't
• 37:02
  get it. And so then my wife and I would sit in
• 37:08
  the preschool room and in the kitchen. looking
• 37:12
  into the parking lot on a Sunday afternoon, getting
• 37:14
  things ready, you know, for her preschool during
• 37:17
  the week. And the deaf are coming out of church
• 37:20
  and they're just going all over the place with
• 37:23
  their hands and their facial gestures, bodies,
• 37:27
  and all of this. And we're like, how do they
• 37:29
  really understand what they're saying? And we
• 37:33
  just thought, this is unbelievable. Just unbelievable
• 37:36
  that this happens. What a way to communicate.
• 37:39
  So I went to the seminary and I enjoyed the languages,
• 37:45
  took my Greek, took my Hebrew, had my German.
• 37:48
  And so interestingly, one of my professors, I
• 37:54
  met him one time as I was coming into the building.
• 37:56
  He was coming from his office and he put his
• 38:00
  hand on my shoulder and he grabbed me by the
• 38:03
  shirt collar and he said, Schumacher, you're
• 38:06
  taking the deaf ministry program next year. And
• 38:09
  I said, with all due respect, sir, I've seen
• 38:12
  that and there's no way I could do that. And
• 38:17
  he says, you're taking the program next year.
• 38:23
  How do I get out of this? So I said, well, I'll
• 38:29
  pray about it. Let go of my shirt collar. He
• 38:32
  turned, made a nine degree turn to go in front
• 38:35
  of me and walk down the hallway. put his hand
• 38:38
  in the air and he waved and he said, see you
• 38:42
  in the fall. And I thought, oh man, what did
• 38:47
  I walk into today? So well, to keep my word,
• 38:52
  I went and I signed up for the deaf ministry
• 38:54
  program. 25 guys, including myself. We took the
• 39:00
  first course. It was a three course program all
• 39:02
  year long. And so Signed up, took it. We started
• 39:09
  learning basic sign language. I thought, hey,
• 39:11
  this isn't bad. You know, I'm a picture orientated
• 39:14
  person. Sure. And, you know, working in engineering
• 39:18
  and construction. You know, this kind of just
• 39:21
  flows right into it. This is a piece of cake.
• 39:25
  And so then we took the first term. Then the
• 39:28
  second term came and well, there were only 15
• 39:30
  guys that stayed in the class. We lost 10. because
• 39:35
  it was difficult form or whatever. And so I took
• 39:38
  that. And then the third term, we got into religious
• 39:42
  signing and translations. And there were only
• 39:46
  five of us in that class. So we would take the
• 39:50
  Hebrew, we'd take the Greek, we'd take the German
• 39:52
  and the Latin, and we'd work with translating
• 39:55
  Bible verses into the sign language. We took
• 40:00
  the catechism and started working with catechetical
• 40:03
  studies, developing them to teach deaf children,
• 40:07
  to teach deaf adults. And so we were doing all
• 40:11
  of this and hymnody, translating hymns. And so
• 40:16
  then, after the end of the year, then I was ready
• 40:19
  to go out on Vicarage and I was sent on a Vicarage
• 40:22
  down in Florida to... two congregations on the
• 40:27
  same property, but in separate buildings. We
• 40:30
  had a hearing church and we had a deaf church
• 40:32
  across the property, across the parking lot.
• 40:36
  And so when I first got there, my vicarage supervisor,
• 40:42
  we called him at that time, he was my bishop.
• 40:45
  And Bishop Wagenack said, He always called me
• 40:50
  Vic, short for Vicker. And he says, Vic, when
• 40:53
  you go over to the deaf church, make sure you
• 40:55
  shut the door in the parking lot. What? Didn't
• 41:00
  understand that. So I went over to the deaf church,
• 41:05
  lead worship, and after worship, now I understood.
• 41:13
  The cultural door. You go from a hearing world
• 41:17
  into a deaf world. and you like walk through
• 41:21
  a door. You know, like walk from one room to
• 41:23
  another room. You walk from a hearing world into
• 41:27
  a deaf world where communication is different.
• 41:32
  It's okay. Anyway, that's what got me into it.
• 41:35
  And then I finished, came back from my fourth
• 41:36
  year and then was sent out to a congregation,
• 41:40
  two congregations that met in the same church
• 41:44
  facility at the same time. So I had to sign and
• 41:50
  voice, and both congregations expected correct
• 41:55
  grammar in their language. So I had to speak
• 41:59
  in English and sign in American Sign Language
• 42:02
  at the same time. The whole worship service,
• 42:05
  the sermon, the liturgy, the hymnody, and then
• 42:09
  after that, then Bible class. Wow. Yeah. Wow.
• 42:14
  because we talked about this just a little bit,
• 42:16
  because I know nothing about sign language, even
• 42:19
  though Kathy and I joke and not joke for years
• 42:24
  that I need to learn it. She knows how to do
• 42:27
  the alphabet, and I think it's American Sign
• 42:29
  Language, whatever it is. I know nothing. I know
• 42:34
  this is Jesus with somebody. This is Jesus. But
• 42:36
  other than that, I don't. That's from a song,
• 42:40
  right? that when you sign, you don't use, it's
• 42:50
  almost like texting. You don't necessarily always
• 42:52
  use every word that you would when we speak.
• 42:57
  Correct. So when you said that they wanted correct
• 43:02
  full grammar signing, does that mean you were
• 43:06
  doing the long version? No. Oh, but the verbally.
• 43:11
  The verbally. Okay, okay. So now you're saying
• 43:13
  one thing, but signing something a little bit
• 43:15
  different. Okay, that's kind of singing and playing
• 43:18
  piano. That's like singing and playing piano.
• 43:21
  Well, kind of, kind of, but it's speaking in
• 43:25
  two languages at once. Wow. And I, you know,
• 43:30
  this is something, I'm goofy, I admit that. And
• 43:37
  you've extensively taught sign language and through...
• 43:44
  through the seminary, through, you worked for
• 43:47
  the LCMS, doing sign language training. And it
• 43:57
  dawned on me, and I asked you, how do you teach
• 44:00
  people who hear, or are you teaching sign language
• 44:03
  to people who don't hear? And you said yes. I'm
• 44:06
  like, okay. So can you go into that a little
• 44:09
  bit more? Well, I can, yes. With hearing people,
• 44:13
  people who are hearing people always want to
• 44:15
  know, well, I'd like to learn this. And so it's
• 44:18
  different whether it was through a congregation
• 44:21
  where I served or whether it was through a junior
• 44:23
  college that had contacted me and asked me to
• 44:26
  teach the classes for them in a community for
• 44:31
  adult ed or whether it was here at the seminary
• 44:35
  where I taught the deaf ministry program. You
• 44:40
  know, we have hearing people coming. The deaf
• 44:43
  people are not coming in order to learn sign
• 44:46
  language. But in the parishes that I served in
• 44:52
  the deaf congregations, they're coming to learn
• 44:55
  the religious signs. Oh, they have some signs,
• 44:59
  religious signs. But, you know, like in the Lutheran
• 45:02
  Church, we have. we have doctrines of the church.
• 45:05
  We talk about the office of the keys. In the
• 45:11
  hearing world, what is the office of the keys?
• 45:14
  Is that a room full of keys? But the deaf, that's
• 45:20
  a picture that they get, an office of the keys.
• 45:22
  It's a room full of keys. A deaf will get that
• 45:25
  picture because their language many times is
• 45:28
  made off of pictures or miming. which is kind
• 45:33
  of like a video. And so anyway, with that then,
• 45:40
  we teach them the church language, the language
• 45:44
  of the church. Okay, and that's where you get
• 45:47
  into it. So you took, did I hear you correctly
• 45:52
  telling me, you took the book of Concord and
• 45:56
  developed a sign language course for that? Not
• 46:01
  for the whole book. Okay. Okay. Okay for portions
• 46:05
  of it. Okay. Yeah, it was portions of it that
• 46:08
  what we've done We did ask students at the seminary,
• 46:11
  but then also, you know through the years in
• 46:13
  the ministry and our biggest You know work was
• 46:17
  with the catechism Okay, which is included in
• 46:21
  the book of concord And so we would take the
• 46:24
  catechism and why we had to do it differently
• 46:27
  sometimes was because of the culture in America.
• 46:30
  You know, we would use one form. But then when
• 46:35
  I taught deaf people catechetics in Africa, you
• 46:40
  know, the culture is different and even their
• 46:42
  sign language is different. And see, that's a
• 46:45
  misconception. People think that, well, you know,
• 46:47
  I know the ABCs so I can go around the world
• 46:50
  and I can do ABCs. No, there's actually 250 different
• 46:56
  sign languages around the world. Now there is
• 46:59
  actually one that is called the universal sign
• 47:03
  language. However, not a lot of deaf people use
• 47:06
  it. Hmm. Not a lot of deaf people use it. You'll
• 47:10
  find some like in Europe, you know, in different
• 47:12
  countries in Europe that they know it and they
• 47:15
  will use it. But not many American deaf know
• 47:19
  it, African deaf. Definitely don't know it. So
• 47:23
  how, you've served in Africa for nearly a decade,
• 47:26
  right? Yes. And you were there, part of your
• 47:31
  mission, your missionary journey there was for
• 47:34
  the deaf. Yes. How, you know, there's deaf people
• 47:38
  everywhere, right? I mean, globally. Yes. I'll
• 47:42
  be candid with you. This is how self -centered
• 47:44
  I am. I never thought about that. I never thought
• 47:46
  about... And I remember as growing up, we went
• 47:50
  to a congregation that had a couple of deaf members
• 47:53
  and the pastor, we didn't call them pastors,
• 47:57
  we called them ministers, okay, he did know sign
• 48:01
  language. And if he didn't do sign language,
• 48:04
  one of the ladies stood up front and sign language
• 48:08
  for her husband, basically. I've never thought
• 48:15
  about that other than, But to hear you talk about
• 48:18
  how far back in your recollection do you think
• 48:22
  the LCMS has had designated deaf congregations.
• 48:30
  I didn't realize that was the thing at all. Yeah.
• 48:35
  This goes back quite a ways. Really? Yes, it
• 48:38
  does. It goes back quite a ways. And I wish off
• 48:41
  the top of my mind, I don't have the date. No,
• 48:45
  but 10 years, or 50 years, 100 years? We're talking
• 48:49
  probably closer to 100 years. Oh, okay. Yeah.
• 48:53
  Okay. And in fact... I mean, that is awesome.
• 48:58
  Just because I feel embarrassed that I've not
• 49:02
  thought about that, but that's actually freaking
• 49:05
  awesome. Yeah. Yeah, our church has gone back
• 49:12
  quite a ways doing mission work for the deaf.
• 49:17
  And a lot of it kind of stemmed out of orphanages,
• 49:22
  where there were deaf children in orphanages,
• 49:25
  no one to minister to them. Then we found that
• 49:29
  these large pockets in certain parts of the country
• 49:33
  where there were more concentration of deaf people.
• 49:38
  And the majority of them centered around the
• 49:41
  manufacturing areas and early manufacturing.
• 49:45
  So, you know, I mean, you can imagine, you know,
• 49:47
  the Ohio River Valley area, you know, and then
• 49:52
  up in, you know, even in... Philadelphia, but
• 49:58
  I'm thinking like Buffalo, New York, in these
• 50:02
  areas, and then Pittsburgh, steel manufacturing,
• 50:08
  and throughout America, because the deaf were
• 50:12
  good with their hands. And when I was on Vicarage,
• 50:17
  I vicar down in Clearwater, Florida, and we had
• 50:20
  an air conditioning company down there. And if
• 50:25
  there was a job opening for a laborer, and they
• 50:29
  would sit at these individual units that had
• 50:32
  their desk, their work center, and then they
• 50:36
  had dividers between them and the next one. And
• 50:40
  many times that was to keep your part straight.
• 50:44
  But this company would love to hire deaf people
• 50:48
  over hearing people. Because if the deaf individual
• 50:52
  is looking straight ahead, working, they're not
• 50:55
  paying any attention to anybody else. Right,
• 50:57
  and the noise or what have you. Or somebody sitting
• 51:00
  next to them, talking to them. You know, mixing
• 51:03
  them up. So the deaf people down there did a
• 51:07
  lot of manufacturing, putting thermostats together,
• 51:10
  if you will, and a lot of intricate parts. Because
• 51:13
  they would focus on their job. That's brilliant.
• 51:18
  Yeah. I got to talk to HR. We're always in need
• 51:24
  of welders. Hey, can you hire me some death welder?
• 51:28
  It's like we don't make it hard enough on HR
• 51:31
  to like hire a little bit. Now I want you to
• 51:33
  go hire death welders. They will look at me cross
• 51:37
  -eyed and I'd raise the Sunday, but anyway. That
• 51:42
  is amazing and that makes perfect sense to me.
• 51:46
  And like I said, so. So when you went to Africa,
• 51:53
  that was through, or you were going to a seminary
• 51:56
  there, correct? Yes. OK. I was called to go serve
• 52:01
  at our partner seminary, our missionary partner
• 52:04
  seminary. At that time, it was just the Ghana
• 52:12
  seminary. It didn't even have a name yet. It
• 52:15
  was Kind of knew it. It had been in existence.
• 52:18
  Not really organized. It was very loose organization
• 52:22
  and but then they had built the building and
• 52:26
  they also has helped to build this facility out
• 52:29
  in what they called the Bush and here in this
• 52:32
  facility it was one building. And it was kind
• 52:36
  of in a square. And around the outside walls
• 52:41
  were the dormitories and classrooms. It was four,
• 52:47
  they would have called it four floors. But three
• 52:52
  of them were only used for dormitories, classrooms,
• 52:56
  a library. And then we had these little rooms
• 53:01
  that they would say, this is your office. But
• 53:04
  you couldn't even get a desk in there. It was
• 53:05
  that small. But anyway, the center was open.
• 53:14
  And so we used that as the gathering area, if
• 53:16
  you will. We developed, we started a church there
• 53:20
  for the village, the Shepherd of the Valley Lutheran
• 53:24
  Church. And it also gave our students experience
• 53:28
  of leading worship. preaching and worship in
• 53:33
  a congregation, in a mission. And so I was called
• 53:41
  there to teach theology courses, and I was also
• 53:45
  called as the provost or the academic dean to
• 53:50
  establish the academics, the curriculum. How
• 53:57
  is this program going to work? And so initially
• 54:01
  I was called to do that and with that was to
• 54:06
  help the church body out because they had had
• 54:10
  for many years a mission to a village that was
• 54:14
  about oh maybe four kilometers away from the
• 54:18
  seminary in the hills and many many years ago
• 54:22
  it was predominantly a deaf village. So much
• 54:25
  that they had their own sign language. not completely
• 54:30
  documented, and so the way you learnt the language
• 54:34
  was by association. So it's Ghana sign language?
• 54:39
  No, this was the village, Atomarobe. Atomarobe
• 54:44
  was the name of the village. It was the Atomarobe
• 54:47
  language. And there was another village similar
• 54:50
  to this up in northern Ghana. We were in southern
• 54:53
  Ghana, but another one was up in northern Ghana.
• 54:56
  And so that was one language. Now I was never
• 55:02
  proficient at that language because it's so difficult
• 55:08
  to learn, because it's so different than American
• 55:12
  sign language or Ghana sign language. And so
• 55:15
  what I would have is I had a member who was an
• 55:19
  elder of the congregation. And he spoke both,
• 55:24
  Adam Orobe, obviously, but he also knew Ghanaian
• 55:27
  sign language. And so if there was something
• 55:29
  that I didn't understand, I would, you know,
• 55:31
  he would come in the conversation, you know,
• 55:34
  to help clear that. Right, right, right. And
• 55:36
  so we did that. Now, an interesting situation
• 55:40
  took place where the deaf people there are so
• 55:44
  poor that when when an individual dies, They
• 55:50
  have to be buried within a short order time,
• 55:54
  no more than 12 hours, simply because they do
• 55:58
  not involve or anything and they can't afford
• 56:02
  it. And so, I mean, it is literally a rough sawn
• 56:06
  box that the body is put in, the corpse is put
• 56:09
  in and into the ground it goes quickly. And so
• 56:14
  I got called on a Saturday evening and you know,
• 56:17
  by a hearing person that was communicating with
• 56:20
  the deaf people that one of our deaf members
• 56:22
  had died. And we were trying to make arrangements
• 56:26
  on the phone through the hearing person when
• 56:30
  we would have the funeral. And I said, I can
• 56:34
  be there as early as seven o 'clock in the morning.
• 56:38
  And OK. And that was just, you know, like 10
• 56:42
  hours difference. And so. We went, unfortunately,
• 56:48
  we normally had a Ghanaian who would drive us
• 56:52
  there in our vehicle because the roads were so
• 56:55
  rough. And sometimes they had to take a different
• 56:58
  homemade road to get there because this was back
• 57:02
  in the hills. And needless to say, he couldn't
• 57:06
  that morning. So my wife and I set out, we drove.
• 57:09
  we actually ended up going through this rut and
• 57:14
  well it caused our tire to blow out and so we
• 57:18
  were delayed in getting there but we finally
• 57:21
  got there but they already had put him in into
• 57:24
  the ground and I had a student from the seminary
• 57:29
  with me because I knew we're going to have hearing
• 57:34
  people who spoke the local language. And so he
• 57:44
  could speak that, he knew English, he could translate
• 57:47
  for me into the other hearing people. Our elder
• 57:52
  then translated into Adamorobe sign language.
• 57:57
  I voiced in English for the English speaking
• 58:00
  people and I signed in Ghanaian sign language.
• 58:03
  So the funeral was led with four languages by
• 58:07
  three people. That's beautiful, actually. That's
• 58:10
  a beautiful story. I mean, think about that.
• 58:14
  But that's what it takes to bring, do we have,
• 58:20
  you've said this a couple times, so you talk
• 58:23
  about we have deaf congregations in churches,
• 58:26
  and I'm certain we're probably not the only one.
• 58:31
  And I. Other than my wife, I don't know. And
• 58:34
  I say that in jest. She's lost a lot of hearing.
• 58:37
  She can still certainly hear with the aid of
• 58:40
  some mechanical devices. But I don't know of
• 58:47
  anyone who's absolutely deaf. I mean, I'm hard
• 58:50
  of hearing. Terribly bad. Being hard of hearing
• 58:55
  is one situation. Yes. But being either born
• 59:00
  deaf, or developing deafness at an early age.
• 59:04
  Yes, that's completely different. It changes
• 59:05
  your world. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I haven't thought
• 59:07
  about that. But obviously, it's a big population.
• 59:14
  Okay. You've been talking about Africa and all
• 59:18
  this, and I was curious, you know, you've got
• 59:21
  experience in both locations, right here and
• 59:24
  in Africa. Can you think of any misconceptions
• 59:28
  that Americans might have about the church in
• 59:30
  Africa or about African culture itself? Well,
• 59:34
  yes Wow, this is a Probably go on for days about
• 59:41
  this but I think in general a lot of people have
• 59:46
  the misconception that the church in Africa is
• 59:52
  Still tribal meaning that their tribe, their
• 1:00:00
  location is limited. And so what religion they
• 1:00:04
  have is basically a tribal religion. And I mean,
• 1:00:10
  going back through the years, yes, it was. And
• 1:00:15
  is tribal religion still an issue today? Yes,
• 1:00:19
  but in a different sense. So when Christians
• 1:00:23
  went to do mission work in Africa and brought
• 1:00:26
  the true gospel there, and as they talked about
• 1:00:30
  God and what God does, Africans began to see,
• 1:00:36
  oh, well, we can see that in nature, and we can
• 1:00:40
  see that in the world, what you're talking about,
• 1:00:45
  but through their tribal religious eyes. You
• 1:00:50
  know, just like we see the trees change during
• 1:00:53
  seasons, you know, the leaves, you know, they
• 1:00:55
  change the colors, they fall off the trees and
• 1:00:57
  all of a sudden they come back on the trees.
• 1:00:59
  You know, you have to understand that climate
• 1:01:02
  is different there, you know, especially where
• 1:01:04
  we were. We were in Ghana where we can grow two
• 1:01:08
  crops a year because the season doesn't really
• 1:01:13
  change except. from harm a ton season, which
• 1:01:17
  is the sands from the Sahara being blown up during
• 1:01:20
  the winter months of the northern hemisphere
• 1:01:23
  south and then falling, you know, in in the atmosphere.
• 1:01:28
  So bad that it's like a very, very foggy morning.
• 1:01:33
  But it's like that 24 hours a day for a period
• 1:01:37
  of, you know, three to well, no, it's not three.
• 1:01:40
  It's more like four months. Really? Yeah. Of
• 1:01:43
  the year. and then you know you have the rainy
• 1:01:46
  season you know when it comes and so you know
• 1:01:50
  yeah you have time to plant you know two different
• 1:01:53
  crops in a year but they don't experience that
• 1:01:56
  the leaves fall off but at the same time leaves
• 1:01:59
  are coming on okay so they don't see the And
• 1:02:04
  I love talking about the four seasons, and that's
• 1:02:06
  one reason I like living where we live, because
• 1:02:08
  I can experience four seasons. Sometimes a season
• 1:02:11
  is a week or a day or two, but anyway. But we
• 1:02:15
  do get the seasons. Look, we are natures of our
• 1:02:23
  environment, right? And if our environment were
• 1:02:27
  us living in Africa, born in Africa, living in
• 1:02:30
  Africa, we come at things from that I don't wanna
• 1:02:34
  say worldview, but maybe that perception. From
• 1:02:38
  what we know. Yes. From what we live. And I saw
• 1:02:40
  this experiment, and I love science, right? I
• 1:02:44
  just, I love science. And the scientist was saying,
• 1:02:48
  we are born with only knowing two fears. One
• 1:02:54
  is, maybe he said it was only one fear. And that
• 1:02:58
  is, as a child, the only fear they have is falling.
• 1:03:01
  I thought, that's interesting. So it seems like
• 1:03:05
  globally or universally, there's this fear across
• 1:03:07
  the globe of snakes. So that means that fear
• 1:03:12
  is taught. And he took four young toddlers, put
• 1:03:17
  them in a room with four or five large snakes,
• 1:03:21
  and I'm assuming they were non -poisonous snakes.
• 1:03:24
  He videotaped it. You can look this up on YouTube.
• 1:03:28
  And the children don't react at all to the snakes.
• 1:03:30
  Matter of fact, they're patting the snakes. One
• 1:03:33
  leans over and tries to bite the back of a snake.
• 1:03:38
  They had no fear. So that is learned. There are
• 1:03:46
  so many things in our lives that we learn through
• 1:03:49
  our environment. And that happens even in cultural
• 1:03:54
  differences. So it's very important to understand
• 1:03:58
  those cultural differences to be able to establish
• 1:04:01
  communication and trust and so forth and so on.
• 1:04:05
  And so that's what one of the things I'm assuming
• 1:04:06
  is one of the challenges as a missionary to Africa
• 1:04:10
  that you would have to partake in or. Well, yes.
• 1:04:14
  And but not only just to Africa, but also here
• 1:04:18
  in the United States, being a missionary or a
• 1:04:21
  pastor to the deaf. Yes. They live in this same
• 1:04:27
  world that we do, where they wake up to the same
• 1:04:32
  time that we do, they walk the same sidewalks,
• 1:04:36
  they see the same plants, yada yada yada, but
• 1:04:39
  yet their world is different because of the way
• 1:04:44
  they learn. Which is what you were just pointing
• 1:04:46
  out, that we learn these behaviors, we learn
• 1:04:50
  different traits throughout our life in the world.
• 1:04:53
  Very, very true. Now, going into a different
• 1:04:58
  country like Africa, it's even more emphasized
• 1:05:01
  because you're not only going where the language
• 1:05:04
  is different, you're not only going where the
• 1:05:07
  color of your skin is different, you're going
• 1:05:10
  to where they eat foods you've never even heard
• 1:05:13
  of. They have daily practices that are different
• 1:05:19
  than yours, like getting up at 430 in the morning.
• 1:05:22
  retiring at night by nine o 'clock, going to
• 1:05:27
  bed, you know, at that time, because they're
• 1:05:30
  so close to the equator, there's not a lot of
• 1:05:32
  difference. You know, they have 12 hours of sun
• 1:05:35
  from 6 a .m. to 6 p .m. Ah, okay. You know, that
• 1:05:39
  creates a cultural difference. And so, you know,
• 1:05:43
  when we talk about worldviews, we talk about
• 1:05:45
  different cultures, very, very difficult, very,
• 1:05:48
  very difficult. to know, you can read about it
• 1:05:54
  in books. Right, but to experience it. But to
• 1:05:57
  experience it is totally different. It becomes
• 1:06:01
  part of your life that you live with. Right.
• 1:06:06
  And I remember when I was doing deaf ministry
• 1:06:10
  up in northern Wisconsin, and predominantly deaf
• 1:06:14
  ministry. and in northern Wisconsin, the Upper
• 1:06:18
  Peninsula of Michigan. And once a year, my wife
• 1:06:21
  and I thought we need to get the deaf together
• 1:06:24
  because I had eight preaching stations where
• 1:06:28
  we had deaf from different parts. And so on Father's
• 1:06:33
  Day, we would have all of them come to our house
• 1:06:36
  in Rib Mountain. And we had about three quarters
• 1:06:39
  of an acre. And so we would set up a tent in
• 1:06:43
  our backyard. And we would set up a little stage,
• 1:06:47
  you know, kind of makeshift this. And we would
• 1:06:49
  have an outdoor picnic. But the most interesting
• 1:06:52
  thing was we had up to 250 of our deaf people.
• 1:06:57
  Wow. So we had a large crowd. But what was so
• 1:07:01
  interesting was the neighbors were so afraid.
• 1:07:05
  Not of the people, but of the noise that this
• 1:07:09
  was going to create in the neighborhood. It was
• 1:07:12
  so interesting because the people that were to
• 1:07:16
  the back of our property, they sat on their back
• 1:07:20
  patios and watched and came over afterwards and
• 1:07:26
  said, I could not believe how quiet these people
• 1:07:29
  are. Now, obviously they're going to be a little
• 1:07:34
  louder sometimes with cups on tables and knives
• 1:07:38
  and things like that. but when they don't use
• 1:07:41
  their voices, and it's just signing. Now, you
• 1:07:48
  had stated earlier, and I was thinking about
• 1:07:51
  this, about the number of, first of all, that
• 1:07:54
  there is absolutely a difference between people
• 1:07:56
  becoming hard of hearing, like moi, or by age,
• 1:08:00
  or by trade, or craft, or bad habits, and people
• 1:08:04
  either being born without the ability to hear,
• 1:08:09
  or because of some sort of a malady, a medical
• 1:08:12
  condition, losing their hearing. Do you have,
• 1:08:23
  have you met many that have lost their hearing
• 1:08:26
  and do you have to minister to them differently
• 1:08:30
  than those who have never had a hearing? I have
• 1:08:35
  had throughout my years in ministry, I've had
• 1:08:37
  spouses of individuals who were born deaf or
• 1:08:43
  became deaf at an early age in life. And through
• 1:08:48
  different experiences in their life, they met
• 1:08:50
  a hearing person. Some of these hearing people
• 1:08:54
  have lost their hearing through whatever malady
• 1:08:59
  that life presented itself. And they would wear
• 1:09:05
  hearing aids when they would go out. But through
• 1:09:08
  time being married to a deaf spouse, they've
• 1:09:12
  learned the sign language. They've learned about
• 1:09:14
  the deaf world and have become part of it. And
• 1:09:19
  yet, they've still had that foot into the hearing
• 1:09:22
  world. Their life is different. And I've had
• 1:09:27
  some of those who have come to the church and
• 1:09:30
  want to learn about the church. So do I teach
• 1:09:33
  them differently? Well, yes. The way I would
• 1:09:37
  teach them is in a combination of both the way
• 1:09:41
  I teach the deaf and the way I teach hearing.
• 1:09:46
  Okay. So I would use a combination of those techniques
• 1:09:51
  to teach them because, like I said, one foot
• 1:09:54
  is in the deaf world, one foot is in the hearing
• 1:09:57
  world. Not necessarily because they were deaf.
• 1:10:00
  Not necessarily because they were hard of hearing
• 1:10:03
  but because they lived with one foot in it because
• 1:10:07
  of our marriage That makes sense again because
• 1:10:11
  of their environment. Yes so you you I Don't
• 1:10:18
  want to assume anything here from our conversations
• 1:10:22
  Sounds like to me. Do you spend quite a bit of
• 1:10:24
  time at the seminary Fort Wayne Seminary? Not
• 1:10:27
  anymore. Not anymore. I've been retired. I do
• 1:10:30
  go periodically, but okay. I was just curious
• 1:10:34
  from you were a young minister or young pastor
• 1:10:43
  one time and you've seen the seminary and you've
• 1:10:47
  talked about several vicars that I know through
• 1:10:50
  Trinity Lutheran. Can you share What qualities
• 1:10:56
  do you most hope to see in the next generation
• 1:11:01
  of pastors? Now, when you talk about pastors
• 1:11:06
  like the hearing world or pastors... Sure, sure.
• 1:11:09
  Either way. Either way. Okay. Well, I think there
• 1:11:12
  are some characteristics that I would say obviously
• 1:11:16
  are for both. One, to be convicted and committed
• 1:11:21
  to our Lutheran doctrines. You know, and to scripture.
• 1:11:28
  But then there are some where they're well, let
• 1:11:33
  me let me put it this way, also a compassion.
• 1:11:36
  You know, a young pastor today. It's so easy
• 1:11:44
  for us to be, and I don't want to say uncompassionate,
• 1:11:50
  ill compassionate. But. You know, I tend to see
• 1:11:55
  more and more younger people today who they don't
• 1:12:00
  understand compassion because their world is
• 1:12:06
  so occupied. Well, it is what it is with technology
• 1:12:13
  and the self. I can go to my office at my house
• 1:12:18
  and I can spend the whole day in there. I can
• 1:12:22
  communicate to people around the world through
• 1:12:24
  the internet, you know, through texting and,
• 1:12:28
  you know, and then I can spend time by myself
• 1:12:30
  reading and studying and writing. And then all
• 1:12:34
  of a sudden my wife comes and she sits down.
• 1:12:37
  Who, who are you? Where are you from? This is
• 1:12:41
  my domain. You know, well, I just wanted to ask
• 1:12:44
  you a question. And all of a sudden now I have
• 1:12:48
  to find that compassion in me. to listen to her.
• 1:12:53
  Whereas before... That's intriguing. I know exactly
• 1:12:56
  where you're going. That's big sense. Years ago,
• 1:13:00
  when we didn't have the computer technology,
• 1:13:03
  the phone technology, and we had basic communication,
• 1:13:08
  even with the telephone. The dev have what was
• 1:13:14
  called the TTY, the total typewriter. They could
• 1:13:17
  type through each other, which was early age
• 1:13:23
  texting, if you will. But all that technology
• 1:13:28
  has developed so fast that it consumes us. And
• 1:13:33
  the level of compassion that we carry with us
• 1:13:37
  is no longer a compassion that that leads me,
• 1:13:43
  but it's compassionate. Oh, I got it in a pocket
• 1:13:45
  somewhere. Let me find my compassion. Yeah, your
• 1:13:50
  phone. Yes. Yes. Well, not necessarily just my
• 1:13:55
  phone, but I do have that ability to be compassionate.
• 1:14:00
  But I've got to change my focus. You've got to
• 1:14:06
  orient yourself towards it. Yes. And so we have
• 1:14:10
  so much that misdirects us these days in this
• 1:14:15
  world. And we always have had that since Adam
• 1:14:21
  and Eve and the first fall into sin. But the
• 1:14:25
  fact is we have that same concept, but orientated
• 1:14:30
  differently because of different things and added
• 1:14:34
  things into our daily lives. so that we become
• 1:14:37
  so self -consumed that when I'm preaching, who
• 1:14:42
  am I preaching to? Am I preaching to me and you,
• 1:14:50
  or am I preaching to, well, you know, there's
• 1:14:54
  this world outside these walls, and I'm really
• 1:15:00
  preaching about them. Wait a minute, we all are
• 1:15:05
  sinners. None of us is holy. We all need to hear
• 1:15:10
  God's law and the gospel. We need to know that
• 1:15:15
  we are sinners. We need to confess that we are
• 1:15:18
  sinners and we need to repent to God and we need
• 1:15:23
  to know for sure that I am forgiven, that you
• 1:15:29
  are forgiven. And we hear that through the voice
• 1:15:34
  of our pastor. That's why a commitment of compassion
• 1:15:41
  that I would look for in a young man wanting
• 1:15:47
  to go into the ministry. And I have a little
• 1:15:52
  young man that's 12 years old that I look at.
• 1:15:57
  And I have seen this heart for compassion for
• 1:16:02
  a long time. in this young man. Happens to be
• 1:16:06
  one of my grandsons. And he's got that compassion
• 1:16:11
  in his eyes. He's got it in his voice when he
• 1:16:15
  speaks. He's got it in his hand when he shakes
• 1:16:18
  hands with you. You just sense this young man
• 1:16:22
  has the ability to understand how you feel or
• 1:16:28
  understand what you need to hear or to see. He's
• 1:16:35
  got that special gift. And we can see that in
• 1:16:40
  people. We can sense that in people. And so those
• 1:16:45
  are the kind of young men that I think we need
• 1:16:48
  to look to today at that age and to help them.
• 1:16:53
  We need to lead them. We need to guide them.
• 1:16:55
  We need to speak to them. And every time we do
• 1:17:00
  have that opportunity, we need to... Remind them.
• 1:17:06
  Have you thought about the ministry? Becoming
• 1:17:09
  a pastor? Let me show you about some of the things
• 1:17:12
  that I do. Let me tell you about some of the
• 1:17:15
  people that I have met in life. Let me tell you
• 1:17:18
  about some of the places where God has led me.
• 1:17:21
  We have to build their interest because the world
• 1:17:24
  is definitely building their interest in other
• 1:17:26
  areas. You hit on so many different areas. I
• 1:17:33
  don't wanna call them triggers, I hate that term.
• 1:17:36
  For lack of a better term. Points of interest.
• 1:17:39
  Points of interest, well they're not points of
• 1:17:40
  interest, they're points of annoyance with me,
• 1:17:44
  and technology is one of them, even though I
• 1:17:46
  am fully immersed in technology due to my vocation,
• 1:17:50
  due to my, for a lot of reasons I'm immersed,
• 1:17:52
  because of this podcast, I'm immersed in technology,
• 1:17:55
  right? I really... And I am not Amish. I'm not
• 1:18:01
  trying to say we need to go back and or, you
• 1:18:05
  know, I think like Paul talks about and I know
• 1:18:09
  it's about dietary conditions, but it's about
• 1:18:12
  balance, right? There's I truly do believe it's
• 1:18:16
  about balance. And when our younger people that
• 1:18:21
  I have grandchildren the same age as your grandchildren,
• 1:18:24
  I get very alarmed. and how much their lives
• 1:18:29
  are influenced by technology. And I don't know
• 1:18:34
  how to, I don't know, when my kids were young,
• 1:18:39
  we were just as guilty as the young parents today.
• 1:18:44
  Our children didn't have computers or phones
• 1:18:47
  or things that they could do, but we had a VHS
• 1:18:50
  tape, so if my wife and I wanted to have a moment,
• 1:18:52
  we could put in a tape and make them sit there
• 1:18:55
  and we can go have a conversation. It just seems
• 1:19:01
  so constant nowadays. And I'm guilty of it. I've
• 1:19:04
  doomscrolled things that I am actually following
• 1:19:09
  a family of pandas at a zoo in China. I mean,
• 1:19:12
  that makes absolutely no sense. But it does bring
• 1:19:17
  me a little bit of joy. But regardless, I just,
• 1:19:22
  I don't know. I see so many negative things technology
• 1:19:28
  does. As a matter of fact, I was just reading
• 1:19:30
  that neuroscientists have discovered after across
• 1:19:35
  our country schools, public schools have spent
• 1:19:39
  billions of dollars on, you know, nobody has
• 1:19:45
  a textbook anymore. They have laptops and they
• 1:19:48
  get all of their education through this laptop
• 1:19:50
  or a portion of their education comes through
• 1:19:53
  this laptop. Now, neuroscience is saying actually
• 1:19:56
  for the brain and the way it maps, a textbook
• 1:20:00
  is better because at least when you read something,
• 1:20:03
  your brain technically maps. Well, I know I read
• 1:20:05
  it on the left -hand page about the middle of
• 1:20:08
  the page. When you're scrolling on a screen,
• 1:20:11
  there's nothing for your brain to map that to
• 1:20:13
  because it's just a continuous scroll. So some
• 1:20:18
  schools are now switching and going back to textbooks.
• 1:20:24
  What amazes me is that so many things that we've
• 1:20:27
  said were old, oh, that's just old fashioned.
• 1:20:32
  That now science is catching up saying, well,
• 1:20:35
  actually, there's value in that. And work and
• 1:20:40
  a continuous improvement and all that. We talk
• 1:20:43
  about, there's two things. There's one called
• 1:20:45
  a value add and a non value add. And when we
• 1:20:48
  talk about... What is value add? A value add
• 1:20:51
  is anything a customer is willing to pay us for.
• 1:20:54
  Non -value add is anything a customer is not
• 1:20:57
  willing to pay us for. So in my industry, when
• 1:21:01
  we buy a coil and then we roll form it into something
• 1:21:04
  else, they're willing to pay us for that. Otherwise
• 1:21:06
  they'd go buy the coil themselves, right? Cause
• 1:21:09
  we can stamp it, roll form it into something.
• 1:21:11
  Now we're changing it and that's a value add.
• 1:21:16
  When we pick that roll form piece up and we move
• 1:21:19
  it to a welding jig, they're not willing to pay
• 1:21:23
  for that movement. It didn't change the product.
• 1:21:27
  Once we put all those components into a welding
• 1:21:29
  jig and weld them together, they're willing to
• 1:21:32
  pay for that. That's value add. When we take
• 1:21:35
  that parts that were made components and welded
• 1:21:38
  them all together and have a finished part, they
• 1:21:41
  don't pay us to move it from the jig. to the
• 1:21:44
  powder coat paint line, but they'll pay us to
• 1:21:48
  powder coat it, to paint it the color they want
• 1:21:50
  it. So there's value add and non value add. That's
• 1:21:54
  everything in life. I think in certain instances,
• 1:21:58
  technology has value add, but in so many instances,
• 1:22:03
  there's non value add. And so when we start thinking
• 1:22:07
  about what we know and what we learn and how
• 1:22:11
  we... So there's value -add and a lot of things
• 1:22:15
  that we were taught young that we've gone away
• 1:22:18
  from, because that's old -fashioned, that's old
• 1:22:21
  -school. It's interesting to me how it comes
• 1:22:24
  full circle. So that's why I always like to use
• 1:22:27
  that analogy when we look at—I talk to people
• 1:22:30
  who will say, I don't believe the Bible. It's
• 1:22:34
  all a bunch of gibberish. It's all myth. And
• 1:22:39
  it's a bunch of stories that aren't true. and
• 1:22:42
  it was written over 2 ,000 years ago, and it
• 1:22:45
  doesn't apply to my life in the 21st century.
• 1:22:49
  Those are people who have never read the Bible
• 1:22:51
  at all, right? And so when you start, and I don't
• 1:22:54
  care what you read in the Bible, but if you've
• 1:22:56
  read much at all, you can start applying things
• 1:23:00
  from much older than 2 ,000 years ago into our
• 1:23:05
  current lives, and they fit. It's a value add.
• 1:23:09
  and it's making people recognize that is one
• 1:23:15
  of the missions of Crusade with me, first of
• 1:23:17
  all, is there's this godly wisdom in scripture
• 1:23:22
  that applies on the 21st century and beyond,
• 1:23:27
  if we can slow down, be quiet long enough, for
• 1:23:33
  lack of a better term, and recognize it in the
• 1:23:37
  scripture. Be still and know that I am God. That's
• 1:23:42
  where we're at, right? You've been at this for
• 1:23:47
  a long time. So after decades of ministry, what
• 1:23:56
  do you know about Jesus today that you didn't
• 1:24:02
  fully understand when you started first? in ministry.
• 1:24:10
  Wow. I know, it's a biggie, right? What do I
• 1:24:13
  know about Jesus today that I didn't know when
• 1:24:17
  I started in ministry? I think I would have to
• 1:24:22
  say that His graciousness, His forgiving love
• 1:24:32
  is When I started in the ministry, I knew, I
• 1:24:41
  had grown up with the understanding that we make
• 1:24:44
  confession of our sins, we repent, and God forgives
• 1:24:47
  us. But I think throughout life, we go through
• 1:24:54
  different trials, we go through different testings,
• 1:24:58
  we see others tried and tested. we see how the
• 1:25:09
  world can corrupt so easy. I guess I grew up,
• 1:25:15
  I want to say I grew up in more of a sheltered
• 1:25:17
  life. Sure, okay. You know, where, you know,
• 1:25:21
  I didn't see all of that stuff growing up. And
• 1:25:24
  so there were a lot of new experience every year
• 1:25:28
  of my life that I became familiar with. And I
• 1:25:35
  think through those experiences, I could see
• 1:25:39
  God's love in Christ, greater and greater. The
• 1:25:49
  amount of that love to be able to forgive my
• 1:25:54
  sins, no matter how bad, no matter how disgusting,
• 1:26:00
  no matter how gross they are to God. And yet
• 1:26:05
  through the blood of his son, I'm covered with
• 1:26:11
  his righteousness. That whole act of Christ making
• 1:26:17
  me righteous. I understood, but I guess through
• 1:26:27
  time, through life, we understand it more because
• 1:26:32
  we live it more. We live it. I think that's right.
• 1:26:37
  I think you're right. You know, and I, one thing
• 1:26:44
  that I've always been drawn to Lutheran church
• 1:26:46
  was because we don't spend a lot of time talking
• 1:26:49
  about feeling. And that's not my strong suit
• 1:26:55
  anyway. But I hate to say it for lack of a better
• 1:27:00
  term. We've used the phrase, you just use the
• 1:27:03
  phrase. we know it, when we truly know, when,
• 1:27:11
  and that's the breaking, changing point in my
• 1:27:16
  mind and in my life, when I truly know. You know,
• 1:27:21
  Kathy has said repeatedly how much, besides my
• 1:27:25
  grandson that he's 13, but for several years
• 1:27:32
  he's referred to the sacrament of the altar is
• 1:27:35
  the B and B, the body and the blood, okay? So
• 1:27:37
  it's just the B and B. And we've always held
• 1:27:41
  onto that, you know? But when we know, so beyond
• 1:27:51
  the B and the B, Kathy said repeatedly, her favorite
• 1:27:56
  part of worship is confession. and absolution.
• 1:28:07
  Sorry, pastors. I know you spend a lot of time
• 1:28:10
  on your homilies, but the confession and absolution
• 1:28:16
  and the B and B, the body and the body, just
• 1:28:25
  are the highlight. And when you know that, and
• 1:28:31
  I mean know it, Not, I know what, like, I've
• 1:28:34
  got this memorized so I know what I need to say.
• 1:28:37
  When you know it internally, and man, that's
• 1:28:42
  life -changing when you know it internally. And
• 1:28:45
  I don't know how else to describe it other than
• 1:28:47
  to know it internally. Well, I think that's,
• 1:28:53
  yeah. It's not something that we're born with.
• 1:28:58
  Because by nature we are born sinful and unclean.
• 1:29:03
  And yet it's only through the Word, through the
• 1:29:09
  work of the Holy Spirit in that Word and the
• 1:29:12
  sacraments, baptism in the Lord's Supper, that
• 1:29:17
  the Spirit creates faith and strengthens faith.
• 1:29:22
  And so when you asked me that question, what
• 1:29:24
  do I know about Jesus today? that I didn't many
• 1:29:29
  years ago starting out. I know more about Jesus
• 1:29:34
  today because of the Holy Spirit's work in me,
• 1:29:38
  through His word, through His sacrament, not
• 1:29:42
  through my preaching. I've learned it by the
• 1:29:47
  Spirit's work, that creating and recreating.
• 1:29:52
  And that's the blessing, that's the gift of God.
• 1:29:54
  Yes. Yes. And so, I mean, for me, for you, it's
• 1:29:59
  the same. How do you know more about Jesus today
• 1:30:02
  than you did growing up? By His grace, you know,
• 1:30:08
  by His Spirit. Through that word, through those
• 1:30:11
  sacraments, we are brought closer. We are given
• 1:30:17
  not a clear, but a clearer understanding of the
• 1:30:23
  mysteries of God. because those truly are mysteries.
• 1:30:27
  How is it that one man can die for the sins of
• 1:30:31
  the whole world? How can one man's death make
• 1:30:36
  all people of all ages righteous? Well, he conquered
• 1:30:49
  death. He conquered death. I think that's the...
• 1:30:54
  That's the curse, right? I don't think Adam and
• 1:30:59
  Eve and Eden were born to die. I think that they
• 1:31:03
  died because of the curse, right? Well, the curse
• 1:31:07
  came, though. How did that curse come? Well,
• 1:31:10
  I mean, now we're getting into some other topics.
• 1:31:15
  The fall of Satan from heaven. Yes. Okay? I mean,
• 1:31:20
  obviously, that's where it's beginning. Satan
• 1:31:24
  falls from heaven. Satan takes angels with him,
• 1:31:28
  fallen angels. So the devil then is cast into
• 1:31:31
  the abyss by God. He's got this special place
• 1:31:37
  that's called hell. And man is created. Man is
• 1:31:45
  told what he is to do, what he is not to do.
• 1:31:50
  And yet... Now man meets Satan. Correct. Well,
• 1:31:55
  that doesn't sound so bad. Well, and so Eve tries
• 1:32:01
  it. Here, Adam, look, and Adam falls for it too.
• 1:32:06
  Right. And so is that God's plan? I don't think
• 1:32:11
  so. No, I don't think so either. But God did
• 1:32:14
  not make robots. Right. God did not create robots
• 1:32:21
  like what we see today. I saw this on that episode
• 1:32:23
  on the news not too long ago about these robot
• 1:32:28
  people walking in the streets of New York. And
• 1:32:32
  what's interesting, they're programmed to do
• 1:32:34
  this or that and kind of have relationships with
• 1:32:36
  people and walks up to one kid, does a karate
• 1:32:39
  move and kicks them in the stomach. All right.
• 1:32:42
  Well, that wasn't meant to be. Right. Even these
• 1:32:46
  robots operate uncontrollably. But as human beings,
• 1:32:54
  we do have that free will. Unfortunately, that
• 1:32:59
  puts it in a good light. Free will, that sounds
• 1:33:02
  great, right? But it's the free will that always
• 1:33:05
  gets us into trouble. That's what always separates
• 1:33:10
  from God. When man takes it upon himself to think,
• 1:33:15
  oh, that's not so bad. But it is. That goes contrary
• 1:33:24
  to God's law. It goes contrary to God's gospel.
• 1:33:31
  I mean, we can write books on this stuff, and
• 1:33:34
  there have been. But the fact of the matter is,
• 1:33:38
  but when I put myself in that position, to say,
• 1:33:42
  well, this is what's really right for me. And
• 1:33:47
  not to rely on what God says is right for me.
• 1:33:51
  And he has done that in his word. Yes. Just as
• 1:33:56
  he spoke to Adam and Eve, you know, in short,
• 1:34:00
  do this, don't do this. You know, look what I've
• 1:34:04
  given you. I've given you all of this world,
• 1:34:07
  all of the creatures, all of the plants for you
• 1:34:09
  to take care of. You had nothing to worry about.
• 1:34:13
  You had food, everything you needed in life.
• 1:34:18
  But then when we think we know better than God,
• 1:34:21
  now all of a sudden, I start needing things.
• 1:34:26
  Well, it's a violation. Oversimplification, in
• 1:34:31
  my simple mind, oversimplification is, it's the
• 1:34:34
  violation of the first commandment. We replace
• 1:34:38
  God. because we don't trust him, because we know
• 1:34:43
  better. I know me, because I'm wearing my underwear,
• 1:34:46
  or whatever. You know what I'm saying? I know
• 1:34:48
  me better than God knows me, which is not true.
• 1:34:51
  How many different stories do we hear about the
• 1:34:53
  potter and the clay? And the clay doesn't ask
• 1:34:55
  the potter what he's doing. Right? Or tell him
• 1:34:58
  what to do. Correct. But we sure do. We sure
• 1:35:03
  do. And that is, you know. so many years removed,
• 1:35:09
  finally getting through this noggin, this thick
• 1:35:12
  stone noggin of mine. And so I think, you know,
• 1:35:15
  throughout time, you know, we grow in the knowledge
• 1:35:18
  of God, we grow in the grace of God, we grow
• 1:35:21
  in and through the work of the Holy Spirit and
• 1:35:25
  that faith is strengthened in Christ crucified.
• 1:35:31
  And so what do I know more today? I know more
• 1:35:34
  of that. Right. Pastor Schumacher, I have absolutely
• 1:35:41
  appreciated so much you being here today. And
• 1:35:44
  I wanna have you back if you would at least agree
• 1:35:47
  potentially. And so you can explain to me bondage
• 1:35:52
  of the wills, okay? And we could just talk about
• 1:35:56
  it, you don't have to do it in sign language
• 1:35:57
  or anything. Okay, we could just talk about it.
• 1:36:01
  All right, thank you so much. Thank you.