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Why Tuna Might Be Doing Better Than You Think · How To Protect The Ocean

0:00
Last year, 100% of the tuna catch in the
0:02
reports by the International Seafood
0:04
Sustainability Foundation are from stocks
0:06
that were not experiencing overfishing.
0:09
That sounds like a conservation success
0:11
story that you rarely hear about.
0:13
But here are the real questions.
0:16
How did we actually get there?
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And is this progress
0:18
as solid as it sounds?
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Because this didn't happen overnight.
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It took years of science, policy
0:24
pressure, industry
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cooperation, and a system
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that finally started to work together.
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Today, we're breaking down with the
0:33
people behind the data.
0:34
This is the How to Protect the Ocean
0:36
podcast, your weekday ocean news update.
0:39
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
0:40
And this week, we've been building up to
0:41
this conversation by
0:43
breaking down how tuna
0:44
fisheries actually work, from stock
0:46
assessments to harvest strategies to
0:48
fisheries management systems.
0:50
Today, we're bringing it all together.
0:53
I am joined by the president of the
0:54
International Seafood
0:55
Sustainability Foundation,
0:56
Susan Jackson, who is here to talk about
0:59
the latest status of the stocks report
1:01
and what it tells us about the state of
1:04
global tuna fisheries.
1:05
We're going to look at what this near
1:07
100% milestone really means, how it was
1:11
achieved and what still needs to happen
1:14
to make sure the
1:15
progress, this progress continues.
1:17
So let's get into it.
1:19
Here's the interview with Susan Jackson.
1:22
I can't wait for you to hear
1:22
it and I'll talk to you after.
1:24
Hey, Susan, welcome back to the How to
1:26
Protect the Ocean podcast.
1:27
Are you ready to talk
1:28
about tuna fisheries?
1:30
Oh, I'm already always ready to talk
1:33
about tuna and it's great to be back.
1:35
Thanks, Andrew.
1:36
Oh, it's so great to have you back.
1:37
We have a big announcement to make today
1:39
and I'm super excited to have you back.
1:42
This is the first of a series of episodes
1:45
that we're going to be having you and
1:47
some of your colleagues on the podcast to
1:49
be able to talk about some of the great
1:51
things that happen at the
1:53
ISSF and we're going to get into
1:55
everything like that.
1:56
But we've got a really big announcement.
1:57
We're going to dive into not only the
1:59
announcement of what went on
2:01
to get to this point in time.
2:03
So really happy news optimistic news,
2:06
which is great to have when we talk about
2:07
oceans, especially these days.
2:10
So let's get into it before we make that
2:11
announcement though.
2:12
I says I want you to just remind the
2:13
viewers and listeners of
2:16
who you are and what you do.
2:18
Thanks.
2:18
Yes, I'm Susan Jackson.
2:19
I'm the president of the International
2:22
Seafood Sustainability Foundation or ISSF
2:26
because that's otherwise a mouthful and
2:28
ISSF is a partnership with the tuna
2:31
processing, trading, marketing industry.
2:35
So not the boats and not those who like
2:38
feed you the tuna or you buy it from
2:40
their shelves, but that middle plus tuna
2:44
scientists and environmental NGOs who
2:48
work on tuna issues.
2:50
You know, it's kind of interesting before
2:52
we get into everything, you know, having
2:54
that representation for that supply chain
2:57
part of like the middle part that often
3:00
gets not necessarily ignored, but just is
3:03
that unknown for a lot of fisheries.
3:05
Just around the world, not just tuna, but
3:06
seafood in general. And
3:08
that is like the big thing.
3:09
It's great to see that area of the supply
3:14
chain being like, hey, you know what we
3:16
want to have our voice to we want to make
3:18
sure that we have sustainable seafood,
3:20
you know, going forward.
3:22
And we want to be a part of that.
3:23
So that's I just wanted to give that a
3:25
shout out to that because that was that's
3:26
always nice to be able to see now ISSF
3:30
recently released a status latest report
3:32
called the status of the stocks report.
3:35
And can you just talk about the major
3:37
headline is the big announcement from
3:39
this report because it is big.
3:41
I'm pretty I'm pretty pumped about it.
3:43
Yeah, well, we update our status of the
3:46
tuna stocks report a couple times a year
3:48
because things change quite frequently,
3:51
not not necessarily because the tuna
3:54
stock status changes all that frequently,
3:56
but because there's 23 of them.
3:58
So something is changing, right? And most
4:01
recent status of the stocks report that
4:03
came out late last month.
4:06
It was reported that almost 100% of the
4:11
world's major tuna catch comes from
4:14
stocks not experiencing
4:16
overfishing, which is fabulous.
4:19
Unbelievable. Like it really is. I wish I
4:22
could say 100 is like 2500 tons of
4:25
Mediterranean Albacore have an uncertain
4:28
stock and fishing effort.
4:31
So, you know, because we're science based
4:33
and precise that point.
4:35
Oh, 4% of the of the world's tuna catch.
4:38
We can't give a definitive
4:40
green to. So we say almost 100.
4:43
And also that that result, right? So
4:48
you're fishing today. Are you fishing too
4:50
much or just enough?
4:51
That's where the hundred is.
4:53
But that results in the status of a
4:55
stock, right? Like it doesn't impact a
4:58
stock immediately. But years of fishing
5:01
pressure results in today's stock status.
5:05
And that's it 97% of the volume of tuna
5:08
that's caught in the world comes from
5:11
stocks that are healthy. And the other
5:13
thing that's really exciting is that none
5:17
of it comes from
5:18
stocks that are unhealthy.
5:20
So there's like 3% that are on the way to
5:23
getting healthy kind of in that right.
5:25
They're not quite green yet. But 0% of
5:30
the volume of tuna that's caught comes
5:32
from unhealthy stocks and 0% of the tuna
5:36
that's caught comes from stocks that
5:38
currently are
5:39
experiencing too much fishing.
5:41
So, you know, when people listen to this,
5:43
they'll be like, well, that's expected,
5:45
like that we should be having that like,
5:46
what's so significant about getting to
5:49
this milestone for for for you for the
5:52
ISF and for tuna in general?
5:55
Yep. Well, your question use the word
5:58
should and I don't quibble with that
5:59
either. Yeah, that should be expected.
6:01
And that should be where we are. But
6:03
that's not how humans work. For starters.
6:08
So I SSF has been around for about 17
6:13
years. And so we've been keeping track
6:15
globally for all that time. So for
6:19
fishing pressure, the lowest point was in
6:24
2016 were only 66% of the volume of tuna
6:29
that was caught was not
6:31
experiencing overfishing.
6:33
So only two thirds at the time were
6:36
experiencing the right amount of fishing,
6:39
if you would. And also the status of the
6:42
stock or that stock biomass, that low
6:45
point was in 2011. And that was only 70%
6:49
of the volume of the tuna that caught
6:51
came from stocks that
6:53
had a healthy biomass.
6:54
So, yeah, they should be 100 and 100. But
6:58
it's, it's a really big deal that they
7:02
are now. And it took a lot of work by a
7:05
lot of people to get there.
7:07
Right. And you know, it's, it's, it's,
7:09
and we're going to talk about what that
7:11
work was, because it is significant. It
7:13
is something that, you know, when we
7:14
start to see success like this, we want
7:16
to duplicate it, not only for tuna, but
7:19
also for other fisheries.
7:20
But I first want to kind of touch on
7:23
something. There's, there's a lot of
7:24
people in the audience who may not be
7:27
familiar with some of the terms and, and,
7:29
you know, just in terms of like, what's a
7:31
healthy stock, what's not a healthy
7:33
stock. So we know we're taking 0% from
7:35
stocks that are not considered healthy,
7:36
or we're taking, you know, maybe that 3%
7:39
that are, or, or 0.4 that you're not sure
7:41
about the 3% that are like on their way
7:43
to healthy, which is like
7:45
basically not overfished.
7:46
What does it mean when a stock is not
7:50
experiencing overfishing? Because, you
7:52
know, a lot of we hear overfishing a lot,
7:54
you know, when we just hear about
7:55
fisheries in general, like, oh, there's a
7:57
lot of whatever, everything is
7:58
overfished, you know, we always blanket
8:00
it all with, with everything
8:01
when we talk about the overview.
8:03
But when we get down to it, what does it
8:04
mean that not experiencing overfishing?
8:06
Yep. So a fish stock, right is is a
8:14
cohort or a group and that group in tuna
8:17
swim all across complete ocean basins. So
8:21
it's not just like the California tuna
8:24
stock or the Australia tuna stock, it's
8:27
the eastern Pacific to the stock or the
8:30
western and central Pacific to the big
8:33
oceans, by the way, big,
8:34
big parts of the ocean.
8:34
They are. They are. So within that tuna
8:39
stock, and you also have to remember,
8:42
they're living creatures, right? And some
8:44
species of tuna like skipjack don't live
8:46
very long, three years. Some like like
8:49
bluefin would have really long. So it is
8:52
that balance because tuna is a very
8:55
important food source is a very important
8:58
economic and job creator
9:00
for coastal countries, right?
9:01
So there's that balance of how much tuna
9:05
can you catch so that the stock is a
9:08
healthy size, meaning it can stay that
9:10
size forever. But also, you know, they're
9:15
going to die naturally. So in a way,
9:17
that's a waste of food.
9:18
It's also important, right? It's
9:20
important because they feed other fish
9:22
and it is all important to the ecosystem.
9:25
So when you say experiencing overfishing,
9:29
it is fishing more catching more than the
9:32
stock itself can sustain if it keeps
9:35
getting caught at that rate. So that the
9:37
size of the stock will get small to the
9:40
point that it's not healthy anymore.
9:41
Right. Gotcha. Okay, perfect. Now, what's
9:45
interesting is like when people hear the
9:47
number, you know, the almost 100%. And
9:50
when we hear we've been throwing out a
9:51
lot of numbers. They assume a lot of
9:54
times that fisheries, especially tuna
9:55
fisheries have been always well managed,
9:58
right? It's always been like, Oh, no, we
9:59
have it all the time. We see it in our
10:01
stores all the time. I would assume that
10:03
we're eating it, but we're eating it
10:05
sustainably for the for the most part.
10:07
That wasn't always the case, though, you
10:09
know, and and you know, there's been a lot of work that's been done.
10:10
What we're going to talk about. But what
10:13
was the situation like 15 to 20 years
10:16
ago? So which is also another way of
10:19
phrasing the question, why did I assess
10:21
up get started? Right around that
10:25
timeline. Yeah. So at that point, right,
10:30
the bodies that manage tunas, five of
10:33
them each in a, you know, large part of
10:36
the ocean existed. So it wasn't like they weren't being built.
10:39
They weren't being governed or managed.
10:42
So that groundwork was done. Some of it
10:45
had been around for a long time. Some of
10:46
them were pretty new. And they all had
10:49
science bodies. And the scientists were
10:52
doing their sock assessments and, you
10:53
know, giving them recommendations. Oh,
10:55
you're fishing too much. You need to fish
10:57
less or this was okay.
11:00
And where it was falling apart is these
11:04
large treaty bodies in the part of an
11:07
ocean have dozens of countries sitting
11:11
around the table. And then they have to
11:14
decide what to do. And, you know, a few
11:18
of them allow for voting, but that's kind
11:20
of not done, at least not done
11:23
frequently. So that puts you to a
11:26
consensus position, which then puts you
11:29
to a way to get the people to vote.
11:45
And so, you know, the scientists just
11:51
tell you what to do. And then the
11:54
managers kind of treated that as the
11:56
floor, and then negotiated up from there. And then the managers kind of treated that as the floor.
11:58
And then the managers kind of thought from there, if they could agree at all.
12:02
So that's kind of why you saw that that
12:05
dip. And right around the time I since
12:08
I've got started, one of the RFMOs met
12:12
seven times and failed to come up with an
12:17
agreement on how to manage a stock that
12:19
was unquestionably not in a good place.
12:24
So, interesting.
12:26
So the two scientists, the NGOs and some
12:29
of the leading tuna companies, the
12:31
founders, there were eight of them said,
12:33
you know, there's got to be something we
12:35
can do to help here, because what's
12:37
happening is the
12:38
governments are getting together.
12:41
And some number of their constituents go
12:45
to the meetings with them.
12:48
But they're all hearing different things.
12:50
And they're all being asked for different
12:51
things. And taken together, we're global.
12:55
And we can help all the countries around
12:57
the table hear one very loud voice that
13:01
says, please just do what the
13:03
scientists say you need to do.
13:05
So over the years, that voice has gotten
13:08
louder and more expansive.
13:14
But also, I that's not the only thing,
13:17
right? You have MSC stewardship council
13:20
certification taking off, which demands
13:22
that the stocks be healthy
13:23
if you want to get certified.
13:26
And so that kind of brings the boats into
13:28
a louder voice, urging proper management
13:31
and more NGOs got involved. Retailers
13:34
started getting involved. Indian Ocean
13:37
Yellifin a couple of years ago, there
13:39
were actually some retailers that said,
13:40
if you don't get your act together, we're
13:42
not going to buy any.
13:42
Yellifin from the Indian Ocean. Yeah,
13:45
period. So more and more voices farther
13:48
and in different places along that supply
13:50
chain started asking, we all started
13:53
listening to the
13:53
scientists. How about that?
13:55
And I think that's great. You know, as a
13:58
scientist, you know, who's always like
13:59
saying that he's like, hey, let's let's
14:01
be scientists and listen
14:02
to what the science says.
14:03
I think that's been, you know, especially
14:06
in fisheries, you know, as someone who
14:08
comes from Canada, knowing the history of
14:10
the cod fishery and what happened there.
14:13
And, you know, the fact is that people
14:15
didn't listen to the government
14:16
scientists even to say, hey, you know,
14:18
this stock is not doing well.
14:20
And it's going to it's completely it's
14:21
completely depleting to a point where
14:23
we're not going to be able to fish again.
14:25
And then, you know,
14:25
you know, the history.
14:26
We've I've talked about a lot on this
14:28
podcast, Susan, you know, the history.
14:30
It's I don't have to go through it
14:31
because that'll take up too much time.
14:32
And we want to talk to you. It's a
14:35
different podcast completely. But, you
14:37
know, you mentioned that when I came
14:40
together and all the people involved came
14:43
together, it became
14:45
this bigger voice, right?
14:46
It's the voice of not only science, but
14:49
also practitioners and also, you know,
14:51
like we mentioned before, the supply
14:53
chain. That voice became
14:54
louder and louder and louder.
14:57
And it kind of made me interested in it
14:59
when you said it that way because there's
15:01
so many ways that voices can be
15:04
interpreted when they get
15:05
louder and louder and louder.
15:07
Everything from the extreme to activism
15:09
and, you know, going to extreme and, you
15:12
know, ramming boats or getting in the way
15:14
of things and things like that, all the
15:16
way to getting loud, but not into a point
15:19
where it's aggressive.
15:20
But it's more of let's let us help you
15:24
like let us work with you to help you do
15:26
stuff. Can you just talk a little bit
15:28
about how that voice was implemented into
15:32
the process? Because it's really I would
15:34
imagine a new organization at the time,
15:37
like ISSF, that it would be difficult to.
15:41
Like almost like legitimately kind of put
15:44
yourself into place with all these
15:45
different governments that are, you know,
15:47
want to have a say, they may not want to
15:49
give up that kind of leverage. But here
15:52
is ISF coming through. It's like, well,
15:53
look, we've got these experts on all the
15:55
different sides and we want to help you
15:57
guys put this into place. So can you just
15:58
talk about what that voice was like and
16:00
how it was received?
16:01
Certainly. And I use ISF generally as the
16:06
ISF voice. Right. But ISF is not just the
16:10
ISF voice, right? We knew from the very
16:12
beginning, we started with eight
16:15
companies, we now have 23. All of those
16:18
companies are in countries. And it's not
16:22
just one country, they could sell in a
16:24
bunch of countries, they could have
16:25
plants in a bunch of coastal countries.
16:27
So it's relying on those businesses to go
16:33
talk to their governments because they
16:36
have a lot more weight. If you're
16:38
employing a couple of thousand, 5000,
16:42
whatever people in a country at your
16:45
plant, then, you know, getting an email
16:49
from me saying, hey, I'd
16:50
like to have a chat. Right.
16:51
So the companies did a lot. Also, we
16:56
started at the very beginning with a
16:58
scientific advisory committee, which was
17:01
and still is constituted of the premier
17:05
tuna scientists in
17:08
each region of the world.
17:10
Plus a bycatch expert and a fisheries
17:13
economist and, you know, a couple of
17:15
other general practitioners, if you will,
17:18
but still really well known and respected
17:21
fisheries scientists. So they were
17:24
working through their science community.
17:27
And ISF started really with the big
17:30
helping hand from the very beginning
17:31
where we funded some science.
17:33
Like I talk about the stock says has
17:36
gotten better. But at the same time, the
17:40
stock assessment methodology has gotten
17:42
better. It has gotten more consistently
17:45
applied across all the species and in all
17:49
the ocean regions where
17:50
that didn't used to happen.
17:51
So the playing field has been leveled.
17:54
The participating companies started
17:56
volunteering their purchase data down to
18:00
species and sizes and vessel and trip.
18:04
And many of the RMOs now use that as part
18:07
of the data that goes into
18:09
the stock assessment model.
18:11
So we started with the beginning, not
18:14
just like, hey, we're over here yelling
18:15
and you should listen to us, which is
18:17
what your question made us sound like.
18:19
Yeah. Right. But it was like, we'd really
18:21
like to help you do this. And here are
18:23
some ways from day one,
18:26
we'd like to help. Yeah.
18:27
Yeah. We also, as I said, partnered with
18:30
the NGO community. And and I guess the
18:32
the other shout out I neglected to give
18:35
at the very beginning is to tune
18:36
themselves. I mean, we are fortunately
18:39
working with an incredibly resilient
18:42
group of species. I mean, I talked about
18:45
the fact that skipjack is very short
18:47
lived, which means a short amount of
18:50
fishing pressure relief is going to make
18:52
the stock get bigger quicker. But let's
18:54
go to the other end of the spectrum where
18:56
we talk about bluefin.
18:57
That's a good question.
18:57
And I think that's incredibly long lived.
18:59
Well, Western and Eastern Atlantic
19:02
bluefin are two huge success stories,
19:05
where they really cut down the amount
19:09
that could be caught the vessels, you
19:12
know, took it on the chin and did the
19:14
right thing and reduce their catch. And
19:17
those long lived species also rebounded
19:23
pretty quickly. So if you
19:25
just give them a little help.
19:27
Yeah, two to two will do a lot of the
19:29
heavy lifting themselves. Absolutely. I
19:31
think, you know, that's a pretty big
19:33
thing for the people who are purchasing
19:36
the tuna to put their data over like
19:39
that. You know, you don't see that often.
19:41
That's a that's a big move to doing that.
19:45
And it helps with that supply chain, that
19:47
transparency all the way through, which
19:49
we talked a lot about in your in the last
19:50
pack, the podcast that you were that you
19:52
were on, and how it's so important for
19:54
fisheries to ensure that we manage fish
19:56
trees so well. You know, when you when
20:00
you go back at it, I mean, that could
20:01
have affected it could have it could have
20:03
turned them or turned around and kind of
20:05
bit them in the butt, so to speak, in
20:07
terms of like, Oh, you're taking too much
20:09
of this, are you taking? That's a big
20:11
risk to take for for a purchaser to do
20:14
that. What? And but the reason they did
20:17
it was to help with the fishery to make
20:18
sure that things were going well and to
20:20
help with that processing. Right? Was
20:22
that a difficult thing
20:24
for, you know, those companies
20:26
to do to hand that to hand that data?
20:29
Surprisingly not. I mean, they knew that
20:33
politically, it had gotten to the point
20:35
that something had to give and they knew
20:37
that this would really help them get
20:40
credibility and would help ISSF get
20:43
credibility globally with the fishery
20:45
managers. I should also make it clear
20:47
that this data is between the companies
20:51
and the scientists, like our compliance
20:53
auditors get verification
20:55
that the data has been submitted.
20:56
But I don't see it. Nobody on the ISSF
20:59
staff sees it. And there were all of the
21:02
member countries had a pretty mature data
21:08
confidentiality agreement in place with
21:11
their RFMOs and the science providers.
21:14
And this got treated in that same way. So
21:18
because there was that base of trust,
21:22
that helped it happen for sure.
21:24
Absolutely. And one of the major tools
21:26
that that helped the tuna management get
21:28
to where it is right now, something
21:29
called harvest strategy. Can you just
21:31
talk about what that Harvard what what is
21:33
a harvest strategy in this
21:35
case since in particular?
21:37
I can remembering. I mean, I think I've
21:41
done a great job so far, considering I'm not a tuna scientist.
21:43
And I know you're going to talk to some
21:47
others, but I can talk in general about
21:49
why harvest strategies are awesome. So
21:53
and and this is another thing I talked
21:56
briefly at the beginning about the
21:57
increased demand and expectation for
22:00
marine stewardship
22:01
council certified tuna, right?
22:03
So not only did the stocks have to be
22:06
healthy, but they needed to be managed
22:09
using harvest strategies. So what's the
22:12
harvest strategy? Well, I talked about at
22:14
the beginning how this whole annual
22:16
negotiation cycle was not great, right?
22:20
And it wasn't working well.
22:22
And so the harvest strategy as much as
22:23
possible takes the politics out of it. It
22:27
sets up in advance. If the stock gets
22:31
here, then we're going to do this. And if
22:34
the stock gets there, we're going to do
22:37
that. And so the scientists report on
22:41
their stock assessment. And the
22:43
predetermined harvest strategy kind of
22:47
spits out the answer, if you will.
23:07
They go back to it, and it takes them out
23:21
of all cases to dourer, the
23:21
this is the result. And
23:23
then there might be adaptive
23:24
management that goes through on that
23:25
depending on the time and
23:26
situation in the result. But you know,
23:28
that's that's the strategy
23:29
and that's what it does. And I really
23:31
like that because it
23:32
really puts that together. But before
23:36
these strategies were
23:38
implemented, you know, how
23:40
are fishing limits typically
23:42
decided?
23:43
Yeah.
23:46
Well, it depends how you limited them,
23:49
right? Like, in the Eastern
23:51
Pacific, they have a
23:53
controlled capacity for the region,
23:59
but it's been exceeded. And then the
24:02
scientists say, well, then
24:05
the fishery itself has to
24:06
shut down for a certain number of
24:08
days. And there they
24:10
negotiate the number of days that the
24:11
closure is going to be. And you know, the
24:14
goal is always to get
24:15
it as close to the
24:16
scientific advice. So that's one way.
24:18
Another way is they'll say the
24:21
scientists say you can't catch
24:22
more than I'm going to make up a number.
24:25
200,000 tons of this
24:27
stock, right? And then
24:29
they'll negotiate around that. And
24:32
they'll end up with a number. Never
24:35
under, but close to 200,000.
24:40
Right. But then what do you do with it?
24:42
Some of the RFMOs have
24:43
gone through the really hard
24:45
negotiation of allocating that
24:47
out, because you can only enforce a
24:51
country share at the
24:53
country level split among its vessels,
24:55
however it chooses to do
24:56
it at its most, you know, at its best
25:00
implementation. But some
25:03
RFMOs have still just set that number.
25:06
And then are kind of
25:09
looking at catch reports and
25:12
data that's submitted and just
25:14
like call a halt to the fishery at a
25:16
whole if they go over it,
25:18
that's the least precise, right? And
25:22
right. And, and, you know,
25:23
kind of everything in between and how
25:25
robust and mature those
25:27
allocations are. So allocation is very
25:31
important. And it is
25:33
still an area that needs work. And that
25:38
is truly a political
25:40
negotiation. You know, it is just the old
25:42
fashioned horse trading, I'll give you
25:45
some of this, if you give me some of
25:46
that, and that is what has to happen.
25:50
Yeah, and you know, we've seen this in
25:52
many governments around the world, it
25:54
doesn't matter whether you're in Europe,
25:56
whether you're in the Western
25:57
country, other Western countries, or
25:58
you're in the Eastern countries, it all,
26:01
you know, when it becomes political like
26:02
that, you're the fisheries at
26:05
the helm of the the political
26:08
party at of the day or of the time, you
26:12
know, and that and that can significantly
26:13
matter in how the fishery is managed, you
26:17
know, some may care, some may not or some
26:19
may go the opposite. And that could be a
26:22
big that could be a big problem in the
26:24
long run, which we've seen with marine
26:26
protected areas where sometimes they're,
26:28
they're protected, sometimes they're not
26:29
protected, like it just depends on who's
26:31
involved and who's around. This is all
26:33
over the world, you know,
26:34
this, you know, especially these
26:36
and not just fisheries and fisheries all
26:38
sorts of things right and so so I liked
26:42
how that we take the politics out we get
26:45
to the harvest management, we look at
26:47
look these are the limits, no matter what
26:49
we're going to assess based on the stock,
26:51
and we're going to let the science speak
26:52
for itself. I feel like that's a
26:54
recurring sort of theme in all of our
26:57
discussions in this way.
26:58
But also, like, there's there's other
27:00
programs of all that, like, there's a
27:01
harvest strategy, but what supported or
27:03
what helps support that process is when
27:06
you mentioned it earlier, the MSC
27:07
certification program, which is the right
27:09
scholarship Council certification
27:10
program, that is had a pretty big
27:12
connection, you know, between the between
27:14
the two the harvest strategies in there.
27:15
Can you just talk about that connection
27:18
and how the harvest strategy support the
27:21
certification process?
27:22
Absolutely. So in order to pass your
27:26
certification, the tuna, the management
27:29
of the seafood stock, whatever it is, in
27:32
our cases, tuna must be done through a
27:36
harvest strategy and management procedure
27:38
that has to be how they do it. So as when
27:42
isis up was getting started
27:44
and as MSC was ramping up.
27:48
There was only one stock of tuna Southern
27:50
blue fin that had a harvest strategy in
27:53
place. Wow. Okay. Yeah. And lots of tuna
27:56
fisheries really wanted to get MSC
28:00
certified. You have Walmart, you had some
28:02
other retailers starting to demand MSC.
28:05
It was really becoming a thing.
28:07
So in 2012, there were about 100,000 tons
28:12
of tuna certified, which, you know, seems
28:14
like a lot, but your base is over 5
28:17
million, right? So in 2012, it was
28:20
100,000 tons. And that's probably more
28:26
than one stock had started working on the
28:29
harvest strategy. But now, again, other
28:32
than our good friend Mediterranean
28:34
albacore, all stocks have started
28:37
the process of working through the steps
28:40
that need to be done to have a harder
28:43
strategy in place and several of them
28:46
1-2-3-4-5-7-8-10. 10 of the 23 have, as
28:55
of now, adopted a full management
28:57
procedure. That is done because of the
29:01
popularity and the pool of
29:03
MSC. That is directly related.
29:05
And that was not easy. Let me give you a
29:09
few other MSC facts and figures. It was
29:11
in 2017, they got close to a million. So
29:14
from 2012 to 2017, five years, they went
29:17
from 100,000 to about 900,000. And then
29:21
again, by 2022, they were up to 1.9
29:25
million or almost 2 million certified.
29:28
And then last year, about 2.8 million
29:31
tons certified or half the global catch.
29:35
And a lot of that is because of the
29:41
improvement in the harvest strategies,
29:44
right? But now imagine for a second that
29:47
you're a fisheries manager and you're
29:49
used to having this real
29:52
time control and negotiation.
29:55
And suddenly somebody is telling you that
29:59
really what you need to do is this. And
30:02
it's really scary. And you're thinking
30:05
about your bosses back home. You're
30:07
thinking about your fishing fleets.
30:08
You're thinking about, you know, oh my
30:10
gosh, I'm giving up control. So from 2012
30:15
until about 2018 or 19, there were lots
30:21
of organizations, scientific, NGOs, countries, and people.
30:39
And so that was a big lift for everybody.
30:48
And again, another great success story.
30:50
success story. Yeah and you know it's
30:53
kind of funny we're talking of you know
30:54
fisheries management, fishery scientists,
30:55
we're talking about policy and how
30:57
important that but we haven't really
30:59
talked about the people who actually
31:01
catch the fish, the fishing communities,
31:03
the fishers right. How do they
31:05
fit into the success story because
31:07
obviously you know they can fish if they
31:10
wanted to technically quote-unquote they
31:13
could fish whatever they wanted to and
31:14
then yeah they would get caught and it
31:15
would be bad but obviously they must
31:17
have played a role in in this success
31:20
right and so can you just talk a little
31:21
bit about what role they played?
31:24
Absolutely they play a big role right as
31:26
I often say to our scientists if somebody
31:29
tomorrow who's on the water
31:31
doesn't do something different than what
31:33
they did today your life's work has been
31:37
for naught because you know if you're
31:40
working on fisheries and you're trying to
31:42
improve fishing that is what you
31:44
ultimately have to do is actually
31:47
improve fishing. Again a lot of the
31:51
vessel work on harvest strategies has
31:55
was because they wanted to get MSC
31:57
certified right it's the fisheries that
32:00
have to apply and in some cases that
32:03
could be a government or that could be
32:04
an organization but in most cases it is
32:07
or it's closely related to a boat so the
32:10
boat wants to get certified that means
32:13
the boat is gonna have to start
32:16
advocating to its country and beyond to
32:19
get harvest strategies so that the
32:21
tuna stocks that's catching will have
32:24
harvest strategies managing them but
32:27
that also means that the people the boat
32:29
sells to have to be asking for it
32:32
right which means that the people that
32:34
the processor sell to the retailers also
32:37
have to be asking for it and and it is
32:40
you know it is that asking that pool by
32:43
the market broadly that is also really
32:46
really increased so yes the boats have
32:49
been an important part not only of the
32:53
harvest strategy success story but the
32:56
RFML advocacy in general you know MSC
33:00
isn't just about stock status under
33:03
principle to there's a whole lot of stuff
33:05
that has to happen on ecosystem
33:07
impacts and bycatch mitigation yeah which
33:11
leads to RFML advocacy for
33:13
requirements there but also leads to the
33:16
vessels having to prove that they're
33:18
doing these required things right so
33:20
again it's so much on the vessels and
33:24
it's it's up to them yeah out of the
33:27
success for sure and it's a lot of
33:29
voluntary you know programs and a lot of
33:31
voluntary you know advocating for
33:33
themselves and being like hey we want to
33:35
be a part of this can you talk about
33:36
the program I'm not sure if I'm gonna
33:39
pronounce this properly is it VOCI is
33:41
that okay VOCI it audits you know for
33:45
voluntary best practices can you just
33:47
talk about the goal of that program and
33:50
and how it's implemented yep sure the
33:53
the goal of that program technically VOCI
33:56
stands for vessels in other
33:58
sustainability initiatives but to me V is
34:02
voluntary and yeah and that's it's
34:04
voluntary but they're not just
34:07
self-declared our compliance auditor
34:09
audits to make sure that they're doing
34:11
the voluntary things that they say they
34:13
are doing so first of all a vessel
34:17
vessels fishing within an MSC
34:19
certified fishery when we started the
34:22
BOCI five years ago that wasn't really
34:26
transparent it was hard to find it wasn't
34:29
up-to-date information so one of
34:32
the first things we did on the BOCI was
34:34
work with MSC and fishery progress who
34:37
was running the fifth lists to say and
34:41
our compliance auditor how but if vessels
34:43
say they're fishing in an MSC certified
34:45
fishery and it's this one or in a fifth
34:48
and it's that one how can we define an
34:51
audit protocol so that they can be
34:52
audited and then we can provide credible
34:56
evidence through the BOCI that
34:58
they are in fact doing that right because
35:00
we were getting to the point
35:01
where retailers were demanding MSC or a
35:05
FIP I as a processors were starting to
35:08
disclose how much MSC fish they were
35:11
buying but they still really needed that
35:14
verified link to say okay here the three
35:17
boats in this shipment and look
35:19
that's that's where they are right so
35:21
that's how the BOCI got its start by
35:23
identifying vessels that were
35:26
participating in MSC certified fisheries
35:28
or FIPs and then we started adding to it
35:33
a lot of bycatch mitigation measures
35:37
and implementation that vessels were
35:41
doing implementing on board plus
35:44
electronic monitoring so now there are
35:47
about eight other things that if you're
35:50
a boat and you're only using finfish bait
35:55
or using circle hooks or
35:57
biodegradable fads or participating in a
36:01
fad retrieval pilot you can get
36:03
recognized for that on the BOCI once the
36:06
compliance auditors have verified that
36:08
you're doing so it is another
36:10
transparency platform it hopefully helps
36:13
inform buyers decisions but it also helps
36:16
them keep their MSC certifications
36:19
because MSC also requires evidence that
36:22
you're doing these things and so they
36:24
often look now to our audited vessel
36:26
lists as part of the annual surveillance
36:29
audit evidence that gets submitted to
36:32
show that these things are happening and
36:34
how many vessels participate in the BOCI
36:37
program Oh total BOCI I feel like we're
36:41
getting close to a thousand seven or
36:43
eight hundred but that doesn't tell the
36:45
whole story because some of them are only
36:47
on there for one thing but some of
36:49
them are on there for three or four
36:50
things right because they're doing lots
36:52
of initiatives and we're approaching
36:55
three thousand initiatives that there
36:59
that are being recognized on out of the
37:01
almost the one thousand boats that are
37:03
participating Wow right on and then we
37:08
have another list that's looks at the
37:10
mandatory things right and you know we're
37:13
we have well over a thousand
37:15
votes on that on that one as well but the
37:18
voluntary I um it's it's definitely
37:22
getting uptick and I think it's really
37:24
important for people to remember if
37:26
you're super curious and you go to our
37:27
website to look at it even if a boat is
37:30
doing one thing that is awesome if a boat
37:33
is doing six things that is awesome
37:36
because V is voluntary yeah and if
37:38
they're on the BOCI they're doing great
37:42
well and I know it's kind of like what I
37:44
tell people from an individual
37:47
perspective they're like what can I do
37:48
protect the ocean like stop buying
37:50
single-use plastic it may not be a huge
37:53
thing for you to do but it helps and if
37:58
everybody starts to do one thing that
38:00
would help that one thing get decreased
38:02
if you started to do the one thing first
38:05
and then be like you know what
38:06
okay we've got this down pat let's try
38:09
and let's not accept plastic bags at the
38:12
at the grocery store okay now you're
38:14
trying to take out plastic bags so in
38:16
this analogy if a vessel says hey we're
38:19
doing one thing like we're using
38:21
circle hooks now we're gonna use
38:23
biodegradable fads so a fish
38:26
aggregation devices and so now we're
38:28
doing two things because we've gotten
38:29
ready and it's working with this one
38:31
we've gotten the process done let's be
38:34
honest for anybody to do any change
38:36
humans don't we don't like change to do
38:38
one change after doing maybe decades of
38:40
one type of fishing and then you're
38:42
changing your way of doing thing that's a
38:44
big process to take to do and getting
38:46
people to buy on board so you do one
38:48
thing then you start doing another and
38:50
I'm assuming the boats just start to add
38:52
on and add on in time and you get to
38:54
certain boats who are doing six things
38:55
and that's that's on the VOC and then it
38:57
keeps increasing but during that time as
39:00
we are demonstrating in this in this
39:03
episode you start to see a change in the
39:06
way we are fishing where we're almost at
39:08
a hundred percent you know fully you know
39:11
fully sustainably fished right all
39:13
the all the fish that were fully
39:14
sustainably fished that's incredible
39:17
that's just the evidence like it's not
39:18
just the evidence that the auditors are
39:20
providing that's being done the overall
39:22
goal is being achieved I think
39:24
you know sometimes we get like I get lost
39:26
in that's like okay we got these
39:27
auditors they're out there they're doing
39:29
their work okay cool where they
39:30
verified this or they maybe found a
39:32
little problem but then they fixed it
39:34
okay cool we're on track right and then
39:36
all of a sudden you know you start to
39:38
see these results these huge results and
39:40
you're like well it started with the
39:42
program with somebody one vessel taking
39:44
on one thing and then it's starting to
39:45
grow from that so I I want my audience to
39:48
like kind of be like hey like this is
39:50
a big thing even if you're doing one
39:51
thing like it's a big change and it's
39:54
contributing to this overall you know
39:57
result that we have of almost you know
39:59
like virtually a hundred percent of the
40:02
fish stock we're from sustainably fished
40:04
so I think that is the overall goal in
40:07
that and it goes towards it goes towards
40:10
transparency that that we keep talking
40:12
about right the fact that is is has a
40:16
number of processors and like the supply
40:19
chain people involved I mean
40:20
that's a big thing of the importance of
40:22
data sharing their data like and like
40:26
the data has to be good data right and
40:29
why is it so like we you know you can put
40:31
any data in but we have these orders are
40:33
taking specific things you have
40:34
processors that are giving over data that
40:37
they're meticulous in in in using and
40:40
then the fishers are being meticulous
40:42
because they have to go through the
40:43
certification program why is good data so
40:45
important when we're talking about
40:47
fisheries management in general
40:50
well because that's what it all relies on
40:55
right you know otherwise it's just a
40:59
guess yeah you know maybe slightly
41:02
educated maybe a little more educated
41:05
but um it it needs to be as solid as you
41:11
can get it yeah it really does it 100
41:15
percent i'm kind of i know that was a
41:16
simple question to answer because you
41:19
know we all know the importance of good
41:20
data but sometimes we hear species can't
41:22
be assessed because there's not enough
41:24
data right so how does that does that
41:28
challenge affect fisheries management
41:30
because there are some and i'm not sure
41:32
in terms of a of the two
41:33
enough fishy fisheries in general with
41:37
all the different species if there's
41:38
enough data for all of them to be
41:40
assessed but i've seen this in other
41:42
government stock reports where like here
41:44
in canada we only have data for like 34
41:47
percent of our fish stock so that needs
41:49
to increase so you know how does that
41:51
challenge like if there's if there's a
41:53
lack of data in some of the tuna
41:54
fisheries how's that challenge fisheries
41:55
management for the future um that's a
41:58
really good question for
41:59
when you talk to victor
42:03
i can't tell you yeah that in victor's
42:06
you know tuna stock assessment 101
42:08
presentation he has a great slide that
42:11
has like a boy scout soapbox derby car
42:14
and then it has like the deck of this
42:18
star trek enterprise okay and he's like
42:22
somewhere in between here is how
42:25
sophisticated your stock assessment model
42:27
can be and they're all better than
42:29
nothing right yeah so
42:31
that's what i can tell you
42:33
so one other thing before i come please
42:47
on the transparency piece i want to talk
42:49
a little bit more about the other things
42:51
on the bose and the ecosystem impacts and
42:53
the bycatch mitigation you know part of
42:56
all of our compliance audits be it
43:00
participating companies or the vessels
43:03
is the belief that that's
43:06
our most effective advocacy
43:08
because we're not just making this stuff
43:10
up this is things that the scientists
43:13
recommended should be happening yes so in
43:16
a diplomatic realm the
43:18
scientists should recommend it.
43:20
and then the fishery managers should talk
43:23
to their constituents and if it's a is is
43:26
participating company they would be like
43:28
oh yeah we only buy from boats that are
43:30
doing that or if they're talking to a
43:32
boat they say oh yeah
43:33
we're already doing that or.
43:36
You know is is that says did you know
43:38
around the world there are 1200 boats
43:42
that are already doing that and 40 of
43:44
them are flagged to your country so it
43:46
gives us again that you know credible
43:50
voice not just a loud voice.
43:54
Yeah i think that's
43:55
that's pretty cool it like.
43:59
It's it's so important especially when
44:01
you start to see that grow and and and
44:03
like it's like i said before you start to
44:05
see the the the overall result happen
44:07
with all these things slowly growing as
44:10
we go through and it just makes it so
44:12
much so much better.
44:14
I want to talk a little bit about the
44:16
bigger picture here because like when we
44:19
talk when people hear stories of
44:20
overfishing in the news they often assume
44:23
it's like fisheries management is just
44:24
failing right but what does like this
44:28
tuna milestone tell us about you know
44:31
what is actually possible when it comes
44:34
to fisheries management.
44:36
Well first of all it tells you that with
44:39
tuna and many other species of tuna
44:42
they're really resilient creatures and
44:45
you know if you set yourself up and set
44:51
them up for success they'll do their part
44:54
this is you know this is not.
44:57
A collapse right this is not the last
45:00
white rhino or you know what other
45:02
tragedy we have commercially got seafood
45:07
is a managed species not a conserved
45:11
species right right on.
45:13
And and so i think just in general it
45:16
shows you that it's possible i think it's
45:19
also important to remember that for
45:22
things like tuna you know we talked about
45:24
how they're managed by
45:25
these collection of countries.
45:27
But still they can't do it all they can
45:29
pass what needs to happen but every
45:32
country sitting around that
45:34
table has to go back home.
45:36
Yeah make sure it does happen in their
45:38
waters and by vessels carrying their flag
45:42
and then the rfmo's themselves need to
45:45
assess the compliance of those countries
45:48
to make sure they're doing their part so
45:50
it's not just one lever and then we can
45:53
be like okay we're good is you know you
45:57
have to keep your eye.
45:58
You globally not only on what the rfmo's
46:03
are doing but what the member countries
46:05
are doing and that's another reason why i
46:07
think things like the is of transparency
46:09
platforms the marine
46:11
stewardship council certifications is.
46:15
Another type of compliance i to help
46:19
those fishery managers out to make sure
46:22
that what's supposed to be
46:23
happening is actually happening.
46:26
Yeah i completely i completely agree i
46:28
think that's yeah that's such a cool
46:29
thing now of course you know we're not
46:32
always perfect in the way we manage
46:35
fisheries changes happen and.
46:37
We have to be on top of it and having
46:39
these systems in place helps us stay on
46:41
top of it what do you find like from your
46:44
experience and the work that you've done
46:46
with is like what are the biggest
46:49
challenges still
46:50
remaining in tunis sustainability.
46:53
Yeah i talked a little bit about the
46:56
monitoring and the compliance you know
46:58
it's still it still makes me sad that
47:01
there are some oceans in the world when
47:03
even large scale personers don't need to
47:06
have a hundred percent observer coverage.
47:08
We have this fabulous technology now with
47:12
electronic monitoring and artificial
47:14
intelligence reviewing the films to just
47:17
start doing better spot checks to make
47:20
sure that the rules are being complied
47:22
with and i wish there were greater.
47:25
Up take an embracing of that technology
47:28
you still have that age old debate about
47:30
well this compliance information is good
47:33
but are we gonna use it for compliance or
47:35
we just gonna use it for science or in
47:37
some cases it's used for compliance but
47:39
can't be used for science
47:40
and right i find that to be.
47:43
Frustrating yeah you know we have these
47:46
fabulous tools now and we should be using
47:49
them to the greatest extent yet the
47:52
information can be used for so that's my
47:55
that's my downer on the progress is being
47:58
made lots of progress is being made and i
48:01
think that's really really important that
48:03
the more exciting one and this is sort of
48:06
on the on the cutting edge and i know
48:08
you'll talk about it on
48:10
several podcasts in the future yeah.
48:12
But starting to look at the ecosystem
48:14
approach to fisheries management which is
48:16
looking at the ocean ecosystem as a whole
48:21
making sure you know.
48:24
It's not just the target species and one
48:27
or two iconic bycatch species but really
48:30
looking at the whole thing which also
48:32
lets the scientists start to look at
48:34
impacts of climate change and you know.
48:38
Range moving or waters warming and
48:41
currents changing and again the tools are
48:45
getting better i would say as the times
48:48
are getting harder and it's which is
48:52
better than not having improved tools and
48:55
so you know the conversations that are
48:57
starting to happen around ecosystem
48:59
approach to fisheries management I are
49:01
are i think the next
49:03
frontier of what's exciting.
49:06
Amazing now i might be pushing the
49:07
envelope here at this next question so
49:10
please tell me if i if i am move you've
49:12
established such a huge milestone right
49:14
here like everybody together as a as a
49:17
collective has been able to hit this
49:19
milestone of almost a hundred percent
49:21
from stanley fish stocks.
49:24
What's the next major milestone that you
49:26
would like to see for tuna sustainability
49:28
now obviously you've mentioned a lot of
49:30
the technology and a lot of the tools
49:31
that could be coming out that could be
49:32
done better and could be installed and
49:34
implemented that could make things better
49:36
but what would you like to
49:38
see that that next milestone be?
49:51
What they've been
49:52
tested and proven you know.
49:56
The green part is to some extent the easy
49:58
part what happens when you get your
50:00
report card from the scientists that year
50:02
yeah and it's not great right so so we
50:07
need to see they only have them
50:09
completely and then they
50:11
need to be tested and working.
50:13
Interesting okay i like that i like that
50:15
that's that's that's a big that's that's
50:17
a big milestone but i
50:18
think that's achievable.
50:19
I think it's always achievable right now
50:23
you know obviously listeners love this
50:24
type of this type of podcast i love to
50:26
hear hear the optimism like to see things
50:28
working you know if listeners remember
50:31
just one thing in this conversation what
50:33
would you want it to be.
50:34
What would you like to see for the next
50:38
episode of tuna our awesome.
50:39
I love it yeah.
50:43
That is all yeah tuna are awesome I think
50:46
it's I think it's all yeah that's just I
50:48
think it's awesome I think it's amazing.
50:49
And if people want to go and learn more
50:52
where would you like to like more about
50:53
the status of the stocks report and I've.
50:56
Got to analysis, work where would they go
50:58
to to get more information they would.
51:00
Go to our website which has a horrible
51:03
domain name and my son many years ago
51:06
told me it was a horrible 17,000 but it
51:08
is available so got um but if you google
51:12
this and tuna so, you don't get skeet
51:16
shooting or stainless steel you'll find
51:18
us and the website is
51:21
the specialty website.
51:26
We'll also put the link.
51:28
Yeah, you have to not make a typo
51:29
when you're trying to make a foundation.
51:31
Well, I'll make sure
51:31
I don't make the typo
51:32
when I put in the description
51:34
so people can access the
51:35
link from there as well.
51:37
Susan, this is awesome.
51:38
I'm looking forward to having you back on
51:40
to discuss more or someone from ISSF
51:42
to talk more about fisheries,
51:44
more about it in the
51:44
programs that are happening.
51:46
We really appreciate the
51:47
work that you guys have done
51:48
over the years and to get to this point.
51:51
And we're looking forward
51:52
to seeing that next milestone
51:53
and more technology being
51:55
applied to get better results.
51:58
So even better results
51:59
than what we have now,
52:00
which is amazing.
52:01
So thank you so much, Susan,
52:02
for joining us on the podcast.
52:03
Thank you.
52:04
Thank you, Susan, for
52:05
joining us on today's episode
52:06
with the "How to
52:07
Protect the Ocean" podcast.
52:08
That was my conversation from...
52:14
There's a lot to take
52:14
away from this episode,
52:16
but here's the big one.
52:18
Ocean conservation
52:18
works when science, policy,
52:20
and industry actually align,
52:22
which is great to see.
52:24
And this isn't just a story about tuna.
52:28
It's a case study on how
52:29
long-term coordinated effort
52:33
can turn around global...
52:38
This isn't just a
52:40
story about tuna fishing.
52:42
It's a case study in how
52:44
long-term coordinated effort
52:46
can turn around global
52:48
environmental changes.
52:51
But it also shows that progress depends
52:58
on continued accountability,
53:01
data, and enforcement.
53:02
If we stop paying attention, things can
53:05
slide backwards very quickly.
53:07
And if you found this...
53:09
So that's the episode for today.
53:11
I really appreciate you joining us.
53:13
If you have any questions or
53:14
comments on all the episodes
53:15
that you've listened to
53:16
this week on tuna fishing
53:18
and where the fisheries industry is at,
53:20
I would love to hear from you.
53:22
Just hit me up at speakupforblue.com
53:26
forward slash feedback.
53:27
You can either leave a voicemail or you
53:29
can leave a written comment, question,
53:32
whatever that might be.
53:33
I would love to hear from you because
53:34
this is the beginning of a conversation.
53:36
We started this conversation this week,
53:37
but I would love to continue that over
53:38
the weekend and in the next few weeks.
53:40
Let's talk fishing.
53:41
Let's talk tuna fishing.
53:43
Questions or comments speakupforblue.com
53:45
forward slash feedback.
53:47
If you found this episode valuable and
53:51
you haven't followed
53:52
the podcast yet, hit that
53:54
follow button.
53:54
And if you think that there is somebody
53:56
that might have
53:56
questions about tuna fishing or
53:58
is wondering where they should buy their
54:00
tuna from or want to
54:01
know more information about
54:02
tuna, send them this episode or the
54:05
episodes from the earlier
54:06
this week that you've been
54:06
listening to so they can take part and
54:09
they can start joining
54:09
the conversation as well.
54:11
I want to thank you so much for listening
54:12
to this episode of the How to Protect the
54:14
Ocean podcast.
54:14
I'm your host, Andrew Loewen.
54:16
Have a great day.
54:16
We'll talk to you next
54:17
time and happy conservation.
54:19
I want to thank Susan Jackson for joining
54:21
us on today's episode, looking forward to
54:23
having her back very shortly.
54:24
And I want to thank you for listening to
54:26
this episode of the How to
54:27
Protect the Ocean podcast.
54:28
I am your host, Andrew Loewen.
54:29
Have a great day.
54:30
We'll talk to you next
54:30
time and happy conservation.