Latest / Story Magic / 62 - Shedding the shame of talking about your book with CC Tyler

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62 - Shedding the shame of talking about your book with CC Tyler · Story Magic

• 2:28
  Emily: Hey, writers.
• 2:29
  Emily: Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.
• 2:32
  Rachel: I'm Rachel.
• 2:33
  Emily: And I'm Emily.
• 2:35
  Rachel: And today we are talking about having the confidence to talk about book.
• 2:41
  Rachel: Today we're talking about talking about your book.
• 2:44
  Rachel: And we are joined by a very special guest, Kira Tyler, who is part of our community, part of my group, also known as author Cece Tyler.
• 2:55
  Rachel: I hope you don't mind if I just call you Kira.
• 2:58
  Rachel: Do you mind?
• 2:58
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): No, do not.
• 3:00
  Emily: We should have asked you that.
• 3:01
  Emily: Should I ask?
• 3:01
  Rachel: We just jump right into this stuff.
• 3:04
  Rachel: So we're joined by Kira today and just so excited to talk to you about this because I know you are.
• 3:10
  Rachel: You've worked a lot in the mental health area, but you also are a writer.
• 3:16
  Rachel: And so I think you understand this cross section really well of, like, what are the feelings behind being afraid to talk about your book?
• 3:24
  Rachel: How do we work through those things?
• 3:24
  Rachel: And you yourself have gone through this process, too.
• 3:29
  Rachel: I mean, I feel like we all have of, like, it's weird to talk about our books with people, and that's strange.
• 3:34
  Rachel: So, to lead us in, would you please tell us, you know, a little bit about you and why you're here today?
• 3:41
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yeah, of course.
• 3:43
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I am a romantic author.
• 3:45
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): My debut came out in March.
• 3:47
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yeah, that seems crazy.
• 3:49
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): It's, like, already may, but a faith in flame.
• 3:53
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): It's a romantic murder mystery.
• 3:56
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And, like Rachel said, I have a background in mental health, and so psychology and writing are, like, two loves of mine.
• 4:02
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): But in the last few years, I've really embraced the.
• 4:06
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): The writing side, so.
• 4:07
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yeah.
• 4:08
  Rachel: Awesome. Yay. So this was something that you, like.
• 4:12
  Rachel: We've been in the same writing group for two years now.
• 4:16
  Rachel: That's crazy.
• 4:17
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yeah, it is, actually.
• 4:19
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yes.
• 4:19
  Emily: January 23 is, like, husband three.
• 4:21
  Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. So two over two now, which is amazing.
• 4:26
  Rachel: But I remember you saying even back then or saying a couple times, like, I don't want to talk about my book.
• 4:31
  Rachel: How do I talk about it?
• 4:33
  Rachel: So is that why you brought this.
• 4:35
  Rachel: Why'd you bring this topic to us today?
• 4:38
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yeah.
• 4:40
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): So I think there's just such power in, like, owning our stories and, like, owning the fact that we're a writer.
• 4:47
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And when you kind of, like, peel back, what, like, shame is, it's like, this belief that there is, like, something wrong with you.
• 4:55
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And when you're trying to show up, you know, to the page or to the keyboard or if.
• 4:59
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Maybe even if you're, like, a pen and paper kind of writer, like, when you're trying to show up, it really.
• 5:05
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): It can, like, really halt you when you're feeling unauthentic.
• 5:09
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And that was, like, what was happening to me.
• 5:11
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And so, like, 2022, I set out to make, like, this goal of writing this story with Evelyn and Cade, who are my two main characters in a faith and flame.
• 5:19
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I kept, like, showing up for myself but then not talking about it.
• 5:26
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, outside of all of this one hard work I was putting into it.
• 5:30
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I also felt like I was lying to my very close friends and family.
• 5:35
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And, like, obviously my husband knew that I was doing this, but when it came down to, like, friends, I was just for a good three, four months of, like, working on the book, it was just this thing that I didn't want to talk about.
• 5:49
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I kind of kept, like, reflecting of, how can something bring me so much joy but also shame, like, at the same time?
• 5:57
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I realized it was holding me back, like, really embracing this side of me, because it doesn't feel good when you think that there is, quote unquote, something wrong with you, when really there's not.
• 6:11
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I think writing this story in 2022 and then in 2023, embarking on, like, the indie pub journey, like, really made me, like, shed the shame.
• 6:23
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And, you know, it took a while, but, I mean, I think, like, being proactive and such really helped me start believing and accepting that I was a writer, if that makes sense.
• 6:36
  Rachel: Yeah, absolutely.
• 6:37
  Rachel: So it kind of started with, you are.
• 6:40
  Rachel: You're showing up to write, you're working hard every day, but, like, if you saw a good friend on the street and they're like, tell me, what have you been up to?
• 6:50
  Rachel: You wouldn't.
• 6:51
  Rachel: You would have been like, nothing, you know?
• 6:53
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yeah.
• 6:54
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And that was.
• 6:55
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): That was the thing is, like, our writing group, Rachel, like, we met on usually, like, Wednesdays or Thursdays, and if we had a couple friends who were asking, hey, do you guys want to meet for dinner?
• 7:04
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And my husband would just be looking at me like, you have writing group?
• 7:07
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I was like, don't say anything.
• 7:09
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, you know, like, and not that any of my friends had this expectation of me, you know, telling them every minute of every day of what I was doing, but.
• 7:19
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And then, like, that, you know, what are you up to?
• 7:21
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And then two, like, I'm a highly, like.
• 7:24
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And Rachel knows this.
• 7:25
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, I am very goal oriented.
• 7:27
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, I'm a. Like, I'm a four wing three, like, enneagram.
• 7:30
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And so, like, that wing three, like, which is the achiever, if anyone is familiar with the enneagram, like, I am an achiever.
• 7:36
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And when.
• 7:37
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I love accountability because I'm an achiever.
• 7:40
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And so I had this goal.
• 7:42
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Goal.
• 7:42
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I've always been so transparent with, like, my parents and my friends and my really close circle of what I'm striving to do or accomplish.
• 7:52
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And it was like, this one thing, again that I believed in a lot.
• 7:56
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, I really believed in Evelyn and Cade's story, and I had so much fun writing it.
• 8:02
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And there are difficult parts of crafting and drafting a book.
• 8:08
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): You know, it's not sunshine and rain.
• 8:11
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And there are definitely those moments where you're like, oh, gosh, I wish I could just.
• 8:15
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Not that they'll understand, but, like, kind of just, you know, chat to my best friend about, you know, something that I'm struggling with and not having that.
• 8:25
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I think, too, like, from a mental health standpoint, like, we can't unfeel things.
• 8:30
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like that is I always, like, tell people that, like, we're human and, like, it's okay to feel shame and it's okay to feel joy all at the same time.
• 8:38
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, we're very dynamic, but if we have this belief, it's usually going to lead to a thought.
• 8:45
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And our thoughts, like, the more we thank them, they really hinder, like, our progress and then, like, our positivity and our mindset, which I'm a huge, like, huge believer in keeping, trying to keep a positive mindset, a healthy mindset when it comes to writing.
• 9:00
  Rachel: Yeah. So the first thing that comes to my mind when we start talking about this is, like, everything you're saying, I fully agree, understand, and have been there.
• 9:11
  Rachel: And I can just picture a writer sitting in the same spot of, like, maybe where I was five or six years ago and feeling like.
• 9:18
  Rachel: Like, how is this showing up for me?
• 9:21
  Rachel: Like, what?
• 9:21
  Rachel: Why would I need to tell somebody else?
• 9:23
  Rachel: Like, I'm doing fine, you know, like, what you're saying.
• 9:26
  Rachel: You're showing up, you're doing the work, you're getting it done.
• 9:29
  Rachel: I'm fine.
• 9:30
  Rachel: Don't look at me.
• 9:30
  Rachel: You know, like, what?
• 9:30
  Rachel: How does this inauthenticity or this.
• 9:35
  Rachel: This shame, like, really affect us when we get to the page in ways we might not see or feel?
• 9:42
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yeah.
• 9:43
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I mean, I think.
• 9:45
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I think for me, like, the belief was, like, success and writing for me changed over the years.
• 9:54
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): So I've been writing for 15, like, 15 years.
• 9:56
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I started in high school, and, like, I was also a creative writing major, but I was a dual major.
• 10:00
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And there was always this side of me that looked at, like, writing as, like, impractical.
• 10:06
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I'm saying that these are all.
• 10:08
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): These are all things that I've reflected on and learned from and, like, no longer.
• 10:11
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Right.
• 10:12
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): This is.
• 10:14
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I was getting to, like, this point of where I wanted to make it a career.
• 10:20
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And it was.
• 10:21
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): It was like, hint, I guess, like, I don't want to say hindering the.
• 10:26
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): This success, but it was, like, limiting my ability to be proud of, like, the milestones I was getting towards and the small wins I was having.
• 10:35
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And two, when I started to open up about it, I realized, like, a lot of shame is also from anxiety.
• 10:42
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And anxiety is the fear of something that hasn't happened yet and so afraid that this thing is going to happen and all the things I was afraid of weren't happening.
• 10:52
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, I had good friends, like, I had a good circle.
• 10:56
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And when I did start to open up about it, like, I was received with such positivity, not to say that there were some, like, you know, outlier negative comments.
• 11:04
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 11:06
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): But I think, like, it's also, too, a matter of.
• 11:11
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I don't want to say prioritize sounds like a terrible word, but, like, putting yourself first and, like, write your writing and creativity.
• 11:18
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, take up space.
• 11:19
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, it is allowed to take up space and you are allowed to take up space and talking about it, opening up about it.
• 11:27
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And it's okay to have a little bit of shame, but almost, like, rising above it and, like, being proactive of, like, my x. Like, whatever your y is when you write is larger than your shame, like, outweighs it.
• 11:44
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yeah.
• 11:45
  Emily: This is making me think of how shame can show up in a lot of different ways.
• 11:52
  Emily: And I could see that there could be a lot of different reasons why someone might not want to talk about their book.
• 11:57
  Emily: And I feel like a lot of them can stem from shame.
• 12:03
  Emily: Like, you mentioned success.
• 12:05
  Emily: There's that fear that you're going to tell people that you're writing a book and then they're going to ask you about it again and again and again, and what if you don't finish it and all of those things.
• 12:15
  Emily: Right.
• 12:16
  Emily: So there's that one, I think.
• 12:18
  Emily: But for me, reflecting on your story, I had a kind of a similar experience.
• 12:22
  Emily: Cause I. But mine was very identity focused.
• 12:29
  Emily: So for me, like, I was working in a very.
• 12:35
  Emily: In, like, the nonprofit world where everybody's, like, working on these, like, very moral, like, climate change issues, climate change and social justice, and, like, all of these, like, you know, these big, very important.
• 12:49
  Emily: We're laughing, but, like, you know, very important things.
• 12:51
  Emily: But I feel like people's, like, my identity, in the eyes of so many people that I knew where I lived, was, like, this thing that I did right.
• 12:59
  Emily: Cause I was a community organizer.
• 13:01
  Emily: That's how they knew me.
• 13:02
  Emily: I was the person who worked on these issues.
• 13:05
  Emily: And so it was, like, a weird identity thing to be like, oh, I'm over here writing my fantasy novels.
• 13:12
  Emily: Like, it was such a weird thing for me to, like, step into that part of myself.
• 13:17
  Emily: But I feel like that's kind of what you're getting at with you owe it to yourself to own all those pieces of your identity.
• 13:26
  Emily: And, like, letting shame be the thing that's holding you back from that definitely can show up in affecting your process.
• 13:34
  Emily: I do wonder, though, if there are reason, like, if there are times to not talk about a story and, like, reasons to do it that don't have to do with shame, right?
• 13:45
  Emily: Like, are there times when you could benefit from treating your writing like a secret affair?
• 13:58
  Emily: Right.
• 13:59
  Emily: Or looking at a project, like.
• 14:04
  Emily: Like an escape from something or, you know, like, if there's reasons not to bring it into other areas of your life that have more to do with, like, boundaries than shame?
• 14:13
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yeah, I was gonna say, like, my first.
• 14:15
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, my first thought went to boundaries, right?
• 14:17
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And so, like, maybe there's that one person who just, like.
• 14:21
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And some people just don't get it.
• 14:24
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, and that's okay.
• 14:25
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And there are gonna be people in our lives who just don't understand, you know, being a creative and making art and writing, and.
• 14:33
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And then there's just those people that are, like, very negative and want to project onto you.
• 14:37
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I think.
• 14:38
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I think those instances, there is power in having a boundary of, like, this is.
• 14:44
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): This is my joy, and I'm not going to let them take that from me with a negative comment or, you know, a look or something judgmental.
• 14:52
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): But then you also mentioned escapism.
• 14:56
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I think for a very long time, that is what I used writing for.
• 15:01
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, again, I did in undergrad.
• 15:05
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I was, like, more so focused on poetry instead of prose, but poetry was just a really great way for, like, my little emo heart to just put my feelings onto the page and just, like, how I viewed the world and it was escapism and, like, in high school, I mean, I'm not ashamed to say it.
• 15:25
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, I love twilight.
• 15:26
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, who did it?
• 15:26
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, I just.
• 15:29
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Twilight and mortal instruments and.
• 15:31
  Emily: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 15:33
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I just, like, loved stuff.
• 15:34
  Emily: And so twilight fanfic.
• 15:38
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And so I think when something else is, like, serving you in the moment, and I think that's also, like, a part of.
• 15:50
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Also, like, the self awareness that come, like, knowing where your shame comes from and if you are creating a boundary that is, like, challenging that belief at the same time.
• 16:02
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): But you don't have to talk about your writing.
• 16:05
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I think that that's fine.
• 16:06
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I don't think you have to do it 100% of the time to not work against shame.
• 16:13
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yeah.
• 16:13
  Emily: I feel like the root of it is we don't want to be making that decision from a place of shame.
• 16:19
  Emily: Right.
• 16:20
  Emily: If there are other reasons that are.
• 16:22
  Emily: You use the phrase serving you.
• 16:23
  Emily: Right.
• 16:24
  Emily: If it's serving you in certain ways, to not talk about your book.
• 16:29
  Emily: I don't think we're trying to tell you, like, go tell everyone in the world.
• 16:32
  Emily: Right.
• 16:32
  Emily: We want you to feel safe.
• 16:33
  Emily: We want you to feel joy, like, all of the things.
• 16:36
  Emily: Yeah, but how.
• 16:38
  Emily: How do you know if your decision to or not to talk about your book is coming from a place of shame?
• 16:46
  Emily: Like, how do.
• 16:46
  Emily: How do we figure that out?
• 16:49
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I mean, I think it takes a lot of, like, you know, like, reflection, and it's not a lint.
• 16:53
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): It's not, like, you know, a straight path.
• 16:56
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Right.
• 16:56
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, it all, you always have to be thinking of, like, you know, where is this coming from and how are you feeling in the moment of when it's coming up?
• 17:05
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And shame, I think, as an emotion, is.
• 17:09
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Is very distinct.
• 17:11
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And it is.
• 17:13
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): It's.
• 17:13
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): The foundation is, like, something is wrong with me and bring it back to, like, your identity piece.
• 17:19
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, not everyone writes.
• 17:24
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): One thing I loved about discovering TWS is I didn't know there was other writers out there.
• 17:30
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I didn't know.
• 17:31
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I was in the midst of COVID and there was this online community, and I got into a writing group, and I was like, there's people like me.
• 17:39
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): It's very exciting.
• 17:40
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): But when you're in your room of people that you know and none of them are creative, like, oh, my friends are pretty much, like, in the tech or their medical.
• 17:50
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, they're ot's and pts and nurses, um, which is great.
• 17:54
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, that's awesome.
• 17:55
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): But they can't empathize or share the same thing.
• 17:59
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And when you.
• 18:00
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): When you ask yourself of, like, okay, I want to talk about what I've been up to this weekend, but you have ick.
• 18:06
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, that's when I think it's about shame.
• 18:08
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And it's like, I'm so.
• 18:09
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I'm, like, different than everyone else, and I don't want to put the spotlight on the fact that I'm different.
• 18:16
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, that's feeling like you're under a microscope kind of feeling.
• 18:21
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And also, too, like, because you're different.
• 18:24
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Associating it with being a bad thing.
• 18:27
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I think that's also important is how deep the belief can be.
• 18:32
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, well, x doesn't mean success, or I'm not like everyone else, so something is wrong with me, which is a bad thing, and just identifying it, like, in the moment and maybe in that particular moment, you don't need to speak up.
• 18:46
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): But I think self awareness is a great first step.
• 18:51
  Rachel: Yeah, well, speaking of steps, so if we're finding ourselves in this position where, you know, you're thinking, I don't know how to talk about my book.
• 19:00
  Rachel: I don't want to talk about my book, but I don't know why.
• 19:02
  Rachel: Or I want to talk about my book, but I feel afraid, or I can recognize, like, a shaming thought, what are the.
• 19:10
  Rachel: What are the steps to.
• 19:12
  Rachel: To change, you know, these thoughts or these steps to, like, overcome that to a certain degree?
• 19:17
  Rachel: Cause as we all know, mindset is.
• 19:19
  Rachel: Is in flux.
• 19:19
  Rachel: Always.
• 19:20
  Rachel: It goes up, and it goes, you know, always in flux.
• 19:23
  Rachel: But, you know, what?
• 19:23
  Rachel: What can we do about this?
• 19:25
  Rachel: To start gaining more confidence, to start feeling less shame, shedding the shame, as you said.
• 19:32
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yeah, I mean, I think step one is acceptance, and it might be difficult to, like, and I know I had a really hard time, like, being, like, oh, I'm ashamed that I'm a writer.
• 19:43
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like this.
• 19:44
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, you know, and just being able to say that, and I don't feel that way, like, now, but in the beginning when I did, and then being able to, like, define exactly what shame is and as an emotion for you, like, is it around family?
• 20:00
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Is it around friends?
• 20:00
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): You know, like, is it in my workplace, like, where do those emotions come up?
• 20:04
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And then also, like, having an awareness and having, like, conversations of where this belief stems from, that something is wrong with you.
• 20:15
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, I think, you know, I came from.
• 20:19
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I mentioned how, like, all my friends and people and family, like, different professions, but also, too, I was an athlete.
• 20:26
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And, like, and I, again, like, don't want to be stereotypical or put anyone in boxes, but, like, athletes, with being a creative and being an athlete, I wasn't exposed to that.
• 20:36
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And so, again, going back to where does this stem from?
• 20:40
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And kind of really just having that conversation with yourself?
• 20:45
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And then I think in terms of mindset, mindset's great, but it also takes way longer to work on your mindset and being able to, like, diagnose of, like, okay, this is the thing that happened.
• 21:00
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): This is how I feel.
• 21:02
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And then tracing it back to the belief that causes all of those events to happen.
• 21:09
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): But to really go back and think, okay, what can I do behaviorally for myself that would work?
• 21:17
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And that's showing up to the page.
• 21:20
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And when someone asks to even say, hey, do you want to hang out?
• 21:23
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And being able to say, no, because I'm going to go write, like, Saturday mornings with my coffee.
• 21:29
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): That's my writing time.
• 21:30
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And, like, proactively choosing your writing.
• 21:34
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I think that type of behavior, like, reinforcing behavior of, like, I am a writer, instead of thinking I am ashamed of being a writer, like, I am a writer, those things, over time, will help shift your mindset as well.
• 21:48
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): So I like to think of it as acceptance, awareness, and action.
• 21:53
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, those three things, and they're always changing, right?
• 21:56
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, they're always changing.
• 21:58
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): It's like.
• 21:58
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): It's like, kind of like a circle I have.
• 22:01
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yeah.
• 22:02
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): It's kind of like a circle.
• 22:04
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And there's different layers to it.
• 22:06
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And sometimes it might get.
• 22:08
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Might get easier to go through the circle, get through the cycle.
• 22:11
  Rachel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 22:13
  Emily: There's something really powerful about what you're saying about taking action even when you don't quite believe it yet.
• 22:21
  Emily: So, like, taking the telling people about your book thing, you know, who's the safest person that you could tell right now?
• 22:30
  Emily: And tell that person, even though, you know, it might be really uncomfortable and really scary and starting to prove to yourself, because, like you said, your friends were totally supportive.
• 22:39
  Emily: Everyone I know was totally supportive.
• 22:40
  Emily: They were like, that's so cool.
• 22:42
  Emily: Some of them were like, I love romantic.
• 22:45
  Emily: Do you know Sarah J. Maas?
• 22:45
  Emily: Oh, great.
• 22:51
  Emily: I love that when people are, like, secretly like, oh, sergeant a boss.
• 22:55
  Emily: And you're like, you don't even know ocean out there.
• 23:01
  Emily: But, yeah, like, you never know what's going to happen.
• 23:03
  Emily: And so taking those small actions to prove to yourself that it's safe to tell people and that you can start to make that identity shift or, you know, whatever it is that's causing your shame start to prove to yourself that, um, it's not true and it doesn't have to be true.
• 23:17
  Emily: Um, can be really, really powerful.
• 23:20
  Rachel: Yeah. Yeah.
• 23:20
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And.
• 23:21
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I think.
• 23:22
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Sorry, Rachel, were you gonna say something or.
• 23:23
  Rachel: You go ahead.
• 23:24
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Okay.
• 23:25
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I was gonna say, like, there's another acceptance piece that can be in actionable where people are gonna say negative things like, that's just life.
• 23:34
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And unfortunately, like, nine times out of ten, it probably has nothing to do with you and your writing.
• 23:38
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, it's a projection or, like, their belief that they could probably never do what you're setting out to do.
• 23:43
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And having.
• 23:46
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Having that, like, I don't know.
• 23:48
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I don't want.
• 23:49
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): It's kind of like armor of saying, like, well, people are gonna have negative things to say and accepting the fact that it might happen.
• 23:56
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I am confident and prepared enough that it, like, when it comes, it comes.
• 24:01
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I know because I adapted that mindset.
• 24:04
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, when you put your book into the world, yes, you are opening it up for reviews, and I want reviews.
• 24:10
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Those.
• 24:11
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Those are great.
• 24:11
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And people are allowed to say whatever they want.
• 24:13
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, I. However people want to review my book, that is okay.
• 24:19
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I got my first bad quote, unquote bad review in my mind.
• 24:24
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): It stung, but it was kind of like a band aid.
• 24:26
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And then I was over it, and it was like, oh, wait, I thought I was going to be crushed.
• 24:31
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And not to say it didn't hurt, but because I had, like, adapted this, I can make it through anything, or I can hear anything.
• 24:38
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And again, to circle back, like, you can't unfeel things.
• 24:42
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, we're human and we're going to feel the sting and we're going to feel the, you know, the rejection.
• 24:48
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, that is what, you know, a bad review is, like, rejection of your art, but then being, like, I'm going to be okay.
• 24:55
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, it's okay, you know?
• 24:58
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): So.
• 24:59
  Emily: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 25:00
  Emily: I love how talking to people about being a writer and telling people what you do kind of prepares you for that because you don't know how people are going to react when you tell them that.
• 25:10
  Emily: Tell them what you do and what you write, and you can't control how people are going to review your books when they're out in the world.
• 25:17
  Emily: So it's kind of like a little stepping stone to get there.
• 25:20
  Emily: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:21
  Rachel: I think in this, and when you're trying to, like, nail down what is the shame or what is the fear, like, it would be helpful to be as specific as you can be.
• 25:31
  Rachel: And I think that can also determine, like, where some of your boundaries need to lie.
• 25:35
  Rachel: For example, I am not ashamed at all of being a writer, and I am not ashamed at all of the work that I write.
• 25:41
  Rachel: I write, like smutty.
• 25:42
  Rachel: Why choose mafia romance, which is dark and violent?
• 25:45
  Rachel: And, you know, like, that's what I write.
• 25:48
  Rachel: But I also am, like, gonna hold a boundary that I know there are some people out there that my book's not for them.
• 25:53
  Rachel: And I'm not gonna tell them about it.
• 25:56
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yeah, but that's.
• 25:58
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yeah, I think it's a fantastic boundary.
• 26:00
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I mean, and that brings it back to, like, the awareness piece.
• 26:03
  Rachel: Exactly.
• 26:04
  Rachel: But, like, that's not my.
• 26:05
  Rachel: I'm not ashamed of that identity.
• 26:08
  Rachel: Like, I'm not ashamed of myself as a writer, and I'm also not ashamed of what I'm writing.
• 26:12
  Rachel: But I know this is my boundary that keeps me safe, is that I know there's a group of people that my book is for, and that's who I want to read it.
• 26:21
  Rachel: But if I weren't, like, particular about these thoughts and trying to understand where are they coming from and why do I have them?
• 26:28
  Rachel: And, like, what is the actual fear?
• 26:28
  Rachel: Am I afraid of rejection from a certain group of people, or am I afraid of letting someone down because I might, like, not meet their expectations?
• 26:37
  Rachel: Like, there are so many different thoughts that these could be.
• 26:42
  Rachel: That's, like, shame, but because of what?
• 26:45
  Rachel: I am ashamed of a writer.
• 26:46
  Rachel: I'm ashamed of being a writer.
• 26:49
  Rachel: Why?
• 26:49
  Rachel: Because of what?
• 26:50
  Rachel: What are you afraid of?
• 26:50
  Rachel: What's the root fear that's driving this shame?
• 26:55
  Rachel: And then you can start to tease about, tease apart.
• 26:58
  Rachel: Like, where are these feelings coming from?
• 27:03
  Rachel: Like, what is the root belief, and where do you want to draw a boundary?
• 27:10
  Rachel: Like, my point is, get really specific.
• 27:12
  Rachel: If you're thinking these thoughts and you're really afraid, dive really deep into them and be like, why am I. Why am I so afraid?
• 27:20
  Rachel: And where is it coming from?
• 27:20
  Rachel: Because you have to get to those really rude causes before you can accept them about yourself.
• 27:29
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yeah, absolutely.
• 27:31
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): 100%.
• 27:33
  Emily: Yeah.
• 27:33
  Rachel: So then that, I do think, ties into your point about awareness of, like, asking yourself, why am I ashamed?
• 27:40
  Rachel: Where is this coming from in the moment?
• 27:44
  Rachel: Like, there's an acceptance of the belief, but in that moment where you're feeling, like, dear in the headlights, about to talk to somebody about your book, like, what's going through your head?
• 27:53
  Rachel: Where's it coming from?
• 27:55
  Rachel: Why, and how can you be more aware of it?
• 28:00
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yeah, it's just like having a personal conversation with yourself.
• 28:04
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I know my personal experience, too, was it was holding me back and, like, not being able to.
• 28:11
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Not being able to talk about it, but also celebrate it, because, I mean, I wrote a book in 2022.
• 28:16
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I mean, I wrote, like, two.
• 28:17
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I was getting it.
• 28:18
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Getting it ready by the end of the year, and then I was, you know, able to submit to rev pit, and I think January or February of 2023.
• 28:27
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And so there were some huge wins that year, and I don't I don't know.
• 28:32
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I feel like because I hadn't.
• 28:35
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I don't know.
• 28:36
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): You can't.
• 28:36
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I don't regret.
• 28:37
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I don't regret anything.
• 28:38
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): But, like, in terms of, like, looking back and.
• 28:41
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And just not being able to speak up about it, like, earlier and knowing that the team of champions that I have, like, my husband, my family, my friends, like, knowing I could have had that from, like, day one, it's like, dang, I wish I had, like, kind of talked about it, but also at the same time, like, the journey and especially with this story, because my main character is learning to believe in herself.
• 29:02
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, they were just like, you know, my journey and her journey were so similar.
• 29:08
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And it's just.
• 29:11
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): It's interesting, like, how my awareness has essentially adapted.
• 29:15
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Having those initial conversations with myself were really difficult, but then when I was able to trace them back, which I will say from a craft standpoint, helped me do back there, you got it the same.
• 29:27
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Ask the right questions.
• 29:28
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): When I was thinking about a character who struggled with belief, but I think too, like, a really important thing to know is that you might not have the answer the first time you ask.
• 29:39
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 29:40
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, where does this stem from?
• 29:42
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And, like, it might take a while.
• 29:45
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): It might take.
• 29:46
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): It might take a second, and that's.
• 29:48
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): That's okay.
• 29:49
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): You gotta trust.
• 29:49
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): You gotta trust yourself in your process.
• 29:51
  Emily: Yeah. Don't.
• 29:52
  Emily: Don't shame the process.
• 29:54
  Emily: I say that about perfectionism, but I think it's true here, too, because, like, I used to, you know, someone's like, what'd you do this weekend?
• 30:02
  Emily: Or they're like, I hear you're writing a book.
• 30:03
  Emily: What are you writing?
• 30:04
  Emily: Or, you know, your husband's like, my wife writes, is an author.
• 30:07
  Emily: And you're like, oh, man, now I have to talk about it, you know?
• 30:12
  Emily: And in those moments, sometimes we clam up.
• 30:14
  Emily: And I used to be like, I write, like, literary fantasy.
• 30:19
  Emily: And my husband.
• 30:20
  Emily: My husband one day was like, what does that mean?
• 30:23
  Emily: I was like, I don't know.
• 30:24
  Emily: It just sounds cooler.
• 30:28
  Emily: So, like, it would be really easy in those moments for me to be like, oh, man, I'm so ashamed of how I gut reaction, you know, reacted in those moments and, like, what I said and stuff, and, like, don't do that to yourself.
• 30:39
  Emily: Don't make it harder on yourself by looking at those moments and not knowing where they came from and beating yourself up for it.
• 30:46
  Emily: Like, that's not helpful.
• 30:47
  Emily: Just stay curious about, you know, what happened in that moment and ask yourself the questions.
• 30:52
  Emily: You know, that Kira's talking about.
• 30:54
  Emily: And just next time, try to pay a little bit more attention.
• 30:58
  Emily: I don't know.
• 30:58
  Emily: I black out in moments like that.
• 31:00
  Emily: I don't know what happened.
• 31:01
  Emily: So it's not always easy to get to the root cause.
• 31:06
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I think having grace with yourself, though, is just so key.
• 31:09
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, just be kind.
• 31:11
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I think it's okay to, like, because we talked about boundaries earlier, and if you're not ready to say it, I think that's a boundary, too.
• 31:20
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, if you're not and you're using it as escapism or you just haven't built that confidence, or maybe you can't even answer the question, like, why am I ashamed?
• 31:28
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I think it's okay to have grace with yourself until you're ready.
• 31:35
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Because then if you do start opening up about it, and then you're not ready, and then, like, you don't, you know?
• 31:40
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): So you also have to be tactful and, like, aware.
• 31:44
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I think that's why the actionable piece, when you're working on your mindset, like, that's where the actionable piece can be, that reassurance.
• 31:53
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, I'm taking up space from my writing, like, an hour a day.
• 31:57
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I'm sitting around and doing it, or, like, even doing it in a coffee shop.
• 32:00
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, when I used, I used to do at home in COVID, like, we couldn't go anywhere.
• 32:05
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): But then eventually I was like, well, I'm gonna go to a coffee shop.
• 32:07
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And then I was like, I'm writing, like, romantic with a little bit of spas and, like, you know, and then, like.
• 32:12
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I had never had, like, I was not ashamed about what I wrote.
• 32:16
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Like, that was, like, rachel's the same way.
• 32:18
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I was like, that was not what I was ashamed of, but the fact that I was doing it.
• 32:20
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I was like, but, you know, doing it in public, which doesn't sound that big, but it can be for some people.
• 32:27
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And I think taking those behavioral steps of shifting your behavior, even if it's alone and the invisible work, the unseen work, is also something you can do.
• 32:41
  Rachel: Yeah, we talk about this a lot, but building confidence and trust in yourself, it's not just a switch that you flip.
• 32:49
  Rachel: It's repeatedly doing the small things over time to build, like, a small belief.
• 32:56
  Rachel: And it.
• 32:57
  Rachel: It does come.
• 32:58
  Rachel: It does come.
• 32:59
  Rachel: Mindset isn't like, okay, all of a sudden, I'm fixed.
• 33:02
  Rachel: Yay.
• 33:02
  Rachel: I no longer feel shame.
• 33:04
  Rachel: Like, woohoo.
• 33:05
  Rachel: It's.
• 33:06
  Rachel: It's long term.
• 33:07
  Rachel: It's the long term journey of choosing to, you mentioned earlier, prioritize yourself.
• 33:15
  Rachel: It's choosing to make the small actions.
• 33:19
  Rachel: And then, like, they're gonna go, well.
• 33:22
  Rachel: Like, that's another fear, is like, what if it doesn't work?
• 33:24
  Rachel: Like, well, you won't know until you try.
• 33:27
  Rachel: And the more you do them, the more you'll see that nine times out of ten, it actually is fine.
• 33:32
  Rachel: Like, a lot of the time, most of the time, overwhelmingly, it's totally okay.
• 33:37
  Rachel: And then, like you said, those little small times where it's a little scarier or you get a review or someone says something a little bit unkind, then you're like, right, no biggie.
• 33:48
  Rachel: No biggie.
• 33:49
  Rachel: I've already built up.
• 33:50
  Rachel: Built up the resistance.
• 33:52
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yeah, yeah.
• 33:54
  Emily: I'm taking a coaching workshop with a coach right now.
• 33:59
  Emily: And she actually instructed everybody the other day that their homework for the week was to tell someone who doesn't know that they write that they write.
• 34:07
  Emily: And she started by asking, are there people in your life who don't know that you're right?
• 34:11
  Emily: And I was like, I don't think so.
• 34:14
  Emily: And then.
• 34:14
  Emily: And so I, like, I was the only one, like, shaking my head.
• 34:16
  Emily: And she was like, you have to go tell strangers.
• 34:18
  Emily: Like, when I go on runs, I, like, stop people on the side of the sidewalk.
• 34:22
  Emily: And I'm like, hey, this is gonna be weird, but I just want you to know.
• 34:26
  Rachel: Yeah.
• 34:26
  Emily: That I write books.
• 34:28
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): That's a fantastic exercise, isn't it?
• 34:31
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yeah.
• 34:31
  Emily: I think it's brilliant because it's such, like a. You force yourself to stand in that discomfort of being like, yeah, I wrote a book, and I'm proud of it.
• 34:39
  Rachel: Yeah, I just did that with my hairdresser.
• 34:41
  Rachel: I got a haircut last week, and she was like, what have you been up to?
• 34:45
  Rachel: And part of me was like, don't say it.
• 34:47
  Rachel: Don't say it.
• 34:48
  Rachel: And then the other part of me just blurted.
• 34:50
  Rachel: I published a book.
• 34:51
  Rachel: And she was like, what?
• 34:51
  Rachel: I was like, I did it.
• 34:55
  Rachel: I published a book.
• 34:57
  Emily: That's amazing.
• 34:58
  Emily: I went to.
• 34:59
  Emily: I picked up some commissioned art that I had printed to put in my arcs that I'm mailing out next week.
• 35:05
  Emily: And I got it printed locally from a guy who used to, who still prints all kinds of stuff, like, for the nonprofit that I used to work for.
• 35:13
  Emily: And I haven't seen him in, like, four years.
• 35:15
  Emily: And he was like, oh, hey, Evelyn.
• 35:17
  Emily: I was like, here's some random art.
• 35:18
  Emily: And I didn't tell him what it was for, but I was like, can you just print this?
• 35:22
  Emily: Like, you know, this art of these two people in victorian dress dancing on a rooftop.
• 35:27
  Emily: And I showed up and I was like, I was like, I'm gonna tell him.
• 35:31
  Emily: I'm gonna tell him what is for.
• 35:33
  Emily: It's not weird.
• 35:35
  Emily: So that was.
• 35:36
  Emily: I achieved my homework for the week.
• 35:38
  Emily: For my week.
• 35:39
  Rachel: Excellent.
• 35:39
  Rachel: Check that off.
• 35:41
  Emily: Yeah. So even if you're like not ready to tell people about your secret affair, right.
• 35:46
  Emily: And like you're not feeling ashamed about it, like practice telling strangers, who cares?
• 35:48
  Emily: What are the stakes?
• 35:53
  Rachel: Yeah, that's fantastic.
• 35:54
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I love that.
• 35:55
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): That's awesome.
• 35:56
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Super fun.
• 35:57
  Rachel: Amazing, awesome.
• 35:58
  Rachel: Well, as we, as we start to wrap up, Kira, where can people find you?
• 36:04
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I am mostly active on the ins, on the gram.
• 36:08
  Rachel: On the gram.
• 36:09
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): The gram as they say.
• 36:10
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): So authorcc Tyler, very active.
• 36:14
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I will be honest, you will see a lot of sourdough pictures.
• 36:20
  Emily: Kira and my food.
• 36:22
  Rachel: I never, I like look at them and I'm like, man, I wish I was as good as Kira.
• 36:26
  Rachel: Like straight comparison.
• 36:29
  Rachel: Oh my gosh.
• 36:30
  Rachel: Yeah, your food.
• 36:31
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Well, if you ever want to like virtual cooking class or lesson, like.
• 36:34
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): Yeah, I'm totally down.
• 36:36
  Rachel: We were just talking about this in TW.
• 36:38
  Rachel: Were you there?
• 36:38
  Rachel: Were you there?
• 36:38
  Rachel: We were talking about this.
• 36:41
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I don't believe.
• 36:42
  Emily: I don't think so.
• 36:42
  Rachel: Okay, so this is the podcast tangent.
• 36:45
  Rachel: Who cares?
• 36:46
  Rachel: This is our show.
• 36:48
  Rachel: Okay.
• 36:49
  Rachel: In tw.
• 36:49
  Rachel: We were on a call last week and like I have for a very long time held this desire to offer up like classes for our members to teach other members like what they like to do.
• 37:01
  Rachel: So like I want to teach a class on making cookies and then like I just have all my ingredients and I can send out the recipe ahead of time and people can like learn how to make cookies together.
• 37:12
  Rachel: So yes, what my point is, yes, you should teach a class on sourdough and cooking and anything that you want to.
• 37:17
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I would teach about.
• 37:20
  Emily: I would just.
• 37:21
  Emily: Writing is expensive.
• 37:23
  Rachel: Writing is getting bigger.
• 37:28
  Emily: It's just gonna be tenacious soon.
• 37:31
  Rachel: Tenacious. Insert your words.
• 37:34
  Rachel: Cooking, writing, crafting.
• 37:39
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): As a member, I support.
• 37:41
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): I completely support.
• 37:42
  Rachel: I love that.
• 37:43
  Emily: Amazing.
• 37:44
  Rachel: Okay, so on the gram, anywhere else, find you on the gram.
• 37:49
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): And then my website is authorcctyler.com and my book two, I will be announcing the publication date very soon.
• 38:00
  Ciara Tyler (CC Tyler): So yeah, amazing.
• 38:02
  Rachel: So in the show notes, we're going to link Kira's socials, her website, and also go read of faith and flame.
• 38:11
  Rachel: It's on Amazon.
• 38:12
  Rachel: It's on Kendall Unlimited.
• 38:13
  Rachel: I have read it for so long because we have been writing partners and I've loved every second.
• 38:18
  Rachel: So go check it out right now.
• 38:20
  Emily: Link is beautiful inside and out.
• 38:22
  Rachel: It's beautiful inside and out.
• 38:23
  Rachel: It's on our link in the show notes.
• 38:25
  Rachel: So go check those out so you can go read it.
• 38:28
  Emily: Awesome.
• 38:29
  Emily: Thank you so much, Kara.
• 38:30
  Rachel: Thank you, Kara.
• 38:32
  Emily: If you want to build a successful, fulfilling, and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
• 38:38
  Rachel: Sign up now to get our free email course.
• 38:40
  Rachel: The magic of character arcs.
• 38:41
  Rachel: After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your readers flipping pages all through the night.
• 38:47
  Emily: Link in the show notes.
• 38:48
  Emily: We'll see you there.
• 38:49
  Rachel: Thank you.
• 38:50
  Rachel: Bye.