Latest / Scouting the League / A New Era for the Falcons - Director of College Scouting Shawn Heinlen
Transcript
- Rodrik David: My history with the Atlanta Falcons, a little complicated. But new director of college scouting, Sean Heinlein, has all the right stuff and is working to take this run office into a great new future with Ian Cunningham. Today, Neil and I sit down with Sean Heinland to talk his origins in scouting, working in Buffalo Philly, in Cleveland, and what he has focused on in year one with the Falcons, plus so much more. Buckle up for a fun one here on Scouting the League. But before we jump in with Sean, On, make sure you head over, like, subscribe, and share wherever you are listening and watching this podcast. That subscribe button and commenting is where it is all at. Make sure you head over to my website, rsafootball.com, for everything I'm doing. Get in touch with me there, or follow me on Twitter at right stepadv. I am Roderick David, former scout for the Atlanta Falcons, was there a little over six years, pro scout, college scout that. COVID thing to get that in the way of our nice future. But again, everything I learned in scouting, not just there, but with the Tennessee Titans and in my time consulting, talking to teams from across the league. Since then, head over, follow me on Right Step ADV. Get everything you need to know there. For scouts and aspiring scouts, a spot where I'm working for thescoutingcommunity.com. Go check that out. I will see you in Nashville. If you are an aspiring scout, you're listening to this one. Let's sit down. Let's talk. Be in Nashville. ready to go. We'll talk about that in more in episodes to come. And make sure you check out our partners over at blueMaka.com. Use code Scouting20 while you're there to let them know we sent you. Get a little discount on that order. Neil Stratton along for the ride today. He is at Inside the League on Twitter. InsideTheLeag.com is his website. So make sure you go check out everything he is doing. And today's guest Sean Heinlein smartly not on the socials. So just go over ahead and follow the Falcons on the social medias. And before we get past it, a quick note on Nashville, the recruiting symposium. Neil and I will be there doing a few different things. Of course, Neil doing everything for inside the league. I'll be there. For right step advising and for the new site that is ready to launch, Right Step Scouting. That is ready to bring you reports from the college side, from the portal to NFL prospects, myself and a small team of great evaluators ready to bring you all that you ask for. Video reports, full reports, one-liners, no matter what it is, we will get a report for you. Everything in one beautiful online portal. Right Step Scouting, be on the lookout. That will be coming soon. We will also be in Nashville sitting down, getting some clips from the symposium, as well as talking to GMs and personnel people from across the league. Make sure you are following us on Twitter. Likely go live there at some point to bring you great stuff. So make sure you are commenting. But today it is all about Sean. So let's kick it over to Neil to get us going. Good. Neil Stratton: Welcome back to the Scouting the League podcast. We're so excited to have the Director of College Scouting for the Atlanta Falcons here with us today, Sean Highland. Sean, welcome to our podcast, buddy. Shawn Heinlen: Hey Neil, thanks for having me. Thanks for having me, Roderick. Appreciate it. Neil Stratton: All right, we're gonna kind of start up as we always do, Sean, and and before we get started, I I just wanna say how excited I am to see someone who has paid his dues to get rewarded the way you have, Sean. I mean, Bills, Browns, I'm le I'm forgetting a team right now, Eagles. Rodrik David: Eagles. Shawn Heinlen: Big Beagles, yeah. Neil Stratton: So many teams, so many years of scouting, working with so many players, so many different things, and I'm glad that you are you know call yourself a director, man. Congratulations on that, buddy. But Shawn Heinlen: I appreciate Daniel. Thank you. Neil Stratton: But let's start with how you got here. Man, tell us a little bit about your road into scouting, why you decided to get into scouting, and kind of who your mentors have been along the way. Shawn Heinlen: Yeah. it's kind of funny. So I was a division three football player. wasn't very good coming out of high school. Was actually small in high school and I actually had a growth spurt in college and then stopped playing and transferred home University of Florida to finish up school. And I was getting a degree in finance. I interned on Wall Street, thought that was the path. And literally it was fall of my senior year. And we had a road game, the Gators did, and we were I think it was at Kentucky and we were up by fifty, I think, is back in the Spurger era. And Brian Schottenheimer got to come in the game and play. And they showed his little player card on the TV and it showed his major with sports management. I looked at my roommate and I'm like, We have that as a major? What am I doing? Like, this is crazy. So I literally went to the to that office on that Monday morning and found out what was it about. And fade long story short, they're gonna start a grad program. So I said, shoot, this this is an idea I got. So I went over to Coach Spurrier's office afterwards and I said, Hey coach, I want to get into this grad program, I wanna get into coaching. What do I need to do? And he said, Well, son, you didn't you didn't play for me, so you can't coach for me. I was like, All right, well, that killed that dream real quick. But his secretary, Nancy Sain, said to me on the way out, she's like, Keep coming back, he'll give in. So I went to the athletic director's office and told him my plan. He said, I got a great idea for you. Go see my guy Chip Howard down in facilities. He'll take care of you. And he gave me a job at the golf course. Coach Spurrier, a notorious golfer, was at the course every single day. I did this stuff to get into grad school. Worked at the golf course and one day coach came up to me and said, You still want to coach? I said, Yes, sir. He said, Cut my office on Monday morning. And that's how I got involved with Coach Sparrow's staff in the ninety-eight season. Had a great year. I worked in special teams, doing advanced scouting and that, setting up the the plays, worked with the tight ends coach, did a little all the recruiting stuff. I'd sit in a closet basically. It was a quote unquote office, but it was basically a closet with boxes of VHS tapes. And my job was to go through all those tapes and if anything I would give it to that position coach for him to actually look at that player. And that summer camp, we had Rex Grossman in as a high school kid and ended up offering him one. He was at at camp that time. And from there, I just, you know, scouts would come in during the season, I'd talk to them, and that's kind of how I got the idea of getting into scouting. And I would just start sending resumes every two weeks. I would send a resume to every NFL team, every college director, even at the time they had the commemorative Vince Lombardi stamps. I Rodrik David: Okay. Shawn Heinlen: Lombardi stamps on the envelopes and send my resume and do my follow up calls. And Dennis Abraham, who's the pro director in San Diego, he was in charge of the interns in Buffalo. And I happened to call him the day he was hiring interns. So he pulled my resume out of the stack and was like, Wow, okay, I'm gonna call you back tomorrow. And he offered me an internship and that's how I got an internship with the Bills. didn't get hired on full time, ended up working in the Spring Football League, which was trying to start before the X FL the first time. And Crash Jensen was the head coach in GM and he hired me as the equipment manager down there. And we worked we played in the Orange Bowl and we lasted a whole three game season before the league folded. And ended up going back to Buffalo that fall as an intern again. And then from there, got a job at the NFL League office working for Joel Bussert and Ken Fiori as a personnel analyst. And then when John Butler left the Bills to go to the Chargers, took a bunch of staff with him. They needed to hire some people when Tom Donahoe came in and he hired me as a scouting assistant. And that's how I ended up in Buffalo. And then now twenty twenty plus years later, here I am in Atlanta. So Rodrik David: Yeah. Sean, so again, you talked Neil Stratton: Sean Rodrik David: about your i i Florida, it was the coaching path. And again, in their late nineties, early two thousands, the scouting Shawn Heinlen: Right. Rodrik David: isn't near what we know it is now, where everybody it's like, I want to be a scout. That that didn't Shawn Heinlen: Right. Right. Rodrik David: exist. Was there an element of, hey, no, coaching, scouting, as you were doing the recruiting, you liked the film, was there an element of that where it's like, hey, no, maybe this is where I want to go? Shawn Heinlen: I knew I didn't have the patience to coach. I just couldn't deal with the the personality of the players on the day to day basis. It just and this was before the kids were five stars and NIL and social media. This was your name was in the newspaper and that was it. But the I just didn't have the patience for that and I and I really was intrigued by the scouts coming in and watching and finding the talent. That really is what kinda got my juices flowing. And that's kinda why I went went that direction. Rodrik David: Yeah, absolutely. Neil Stratton: Now, Sean, you've been on the road seven years. Gotta ask you this. When an offensive line prospect out of Virginia came through in the two thousand eight draft class, man, the name of Ian Cunningham. Shawn Heinlen: Yeah. Neil Stratton: Do you remember him as a player? Shawn Heinlen: vaguely. You remember the makeup of him. You know, they had some really good players back then. Talent wise he was borderline, but you just he was a tough, resilient kid coming back from injuries, really smart, great makeup. those things you thought gave him a chance, but the the the the actual physical talent was was just close enough, but maybe not quite enough. Neil Stratton: I mean I I I've mentioned anyone who has followed inside the league at all, I I've mentioned the fact that Ian was one of my players in the O eight hula bowl. And I Shawn Heinlen: Yeah. Neil Stratton: remember taking him because I knew he wouldn't embarrass me. He came with a big nice helmet and I thought he had, you know, skills. I thought he could be a camp guy and I think that's what he wound up being. Was it Shawn Heinlen: Right. Right. Neil Stratton: camp guy? I I don't remember if he made it to a yeah, okay. I don't remember if he Shawn Heinlen: Kansas City. Yep. Neil Stratton: made it a fifty three or not at all, but at least he got there. And that that was a big check in the box for me. Right in a Shawn Heinlen: Yeah. Right. Neil Stratton: number three all-star game, just to have somebody that actually made a roster. So and have Shawn Heinlen: Yeah. Neil Stratton: certainly admired got a lot of fun tracking him as he's as he's going on through his scouting career. All right, so Sean, both you and Ian have paid your dues. I kind of allude to that on the way on the Shawn Heinlen: Yeah. Neil Stratton: way up. do you think I see this? I see your ascendants, I see Ian's ascendance. as a victory for traditional scouting. Both of you been on the road. Both of you have you know what it takes. You've been, you've watched more film than most people can even have have seen in their lives. Do you see this as a victory for traditional scouting? Do you think Atlanta's gonna be emblematic of a more traditional approach as y'all build this thing out? Shawn Heinlen: Yeah, I don't know if I would call it a victory for traditional scouting, but just just sticking to the process and doing things the right way, treating people the right way. again, just just having faith in if you do things the right way and you take care of people along the way, that good things will happen. And at the end of the day, it's you know, we we've put in a lot of time. We've Ian especially has been able to take every step along the way. And now I'm kind of following that same path behind him where You know, you don't you don't there's no shortcuts. There's there's no way of of working your way around it. It's you just the old fashioned way of just hard work, doing things right, learning the process, and just trusting that by doing everything the right way, you you're gonna get your chance to ultimately do the what you wanna do. So I think that's the biggest part of it is just trusting yourself and and knowing that you're doing things the right way. And it may not be the fastest way to get to the top, but eventually you're gonna get there if you just keep, you know, We a summer project and it's you know, chop wood, carry water, and that's what it is. It's just you just keep going and you just keep doing things the right way and eventually you're gonna break through. someone said to me, like, you know, it's you didn't quit five minutes before the miracle. And that's the big thing. You just stay the path and you stay true to yourself and you just be a good person and treat people the right way and good things will happen. Rodrik David: Yeah. Yeah absolutely. Neil Stratton: Okay, so in your lengthy career in scouting, you've been a part of a number of staffs that have drafted some really big names and very interesting players. Want to kind of run through some of them. May may not have been in your area per se, Sean, but you probably Shawn Heinlen: Yeah. Okay. Right. Neil Stratton: have some memories about him. A guy that has become probably as big for a presence off the field as he was on the field during his career, Marshawn Lynch, running back out of Cal in 2007 with the Bills. Shawn Heinlen: Right. Fantastic talent. The thing with Marshawn was just you're just trying to figure out the background. You know, the kid coming from Oakland. A lot of rumors are always swirling about just who his circle was, but there was no deniability about what he was as a player. It was just making sure you were comfortable with the person and and turns out it's just getting to know his personality, just understanding who he is as a person and finding out what he's about. And he's he guy loves football. He's a great teammate. And again, it was just a matter of if you want that personality in your building because he is a huge personality and he's a great person, great football player. and again, just by doing the due diligence, you we got comfortable with that and it was it was a pretty easy pick at that point. Neil Stratton: Sure. 2011, Marcel Darius, a pretty good defensive tackle out of Alabama with the Bills. Shawn Heinlen: Yeah. Yeah. That draft was interesting because that was the year, you know, we ended up getting ended up being third. We were waiting to see who's gonna come out early. Andrew Luck, you think's gonna be there, Cam Newton, and then Andrew goes back to school. And it kind of threw a wrench into things 'cause we thought we'd end up with Cam at the third pick because he would think Andrew'd go one, Denver didn't need one at two, three we'll just give we'll get Cam. That's gonna be a quarterback, and then Andrew goes back to school. So it really came down to just who would be there at three between Vaughn and and Marcel. So we were comfortable with both and it was both highly talented players, obviously different positions, but at the spot we were picking it was kind of a who just gets to us and that's who ended up being the guy we get. Neil Stratton: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. A really good cornerback out of South Carolina in two thousand twelve, Stefan Gilmore. Shawn Heinlen: That was an easy pick. I mean, he's height, weight, speed, talent, all that stuff was great. Great character makeup, great football character. the fact that he got to us, it took us probably half a second to turn that card in to make that pick. It was one of the cleaner, easier picks you can make. Neil Stratton: You love those you love that kind. A player who kind of had his struggles in Buffalo, EJ Manuel, quarterback out of Florida State in two thousand thirteen. Shawn Heinlen: Yeah, it was, you know, again, it wasn't a great quarterback draft. We thought we had to get a quarterback that we could try and develop and just EJ had the measurables, you know, the height, weight, arm talents, great kid. Everybody in the building raved about him as a person. the work ethic was really good. So out of the quarterbacks coming out that year, that was a guy we just felt more comfortable working with to try and develop and see if maybe two, three years down the road he couldn't develop into being one of those types of guys. So we were just betting on the come with him. It just never came to fruition on the field, but it was we thought he was the cleaner prospect to try and work with to see what he could get two to three years down the road. Neil Stratton: Now, a cornerback out of LSU in 2017, Tradavius White, as as clean a pick as Stefan was? Shawn Heinlen: Yeah, for where we were doing because that was the trade down with Kansas City. you know, new regime coming in. Weren't in a place where we thought we could take the quarterback and have to play him right away. We just weren't built for that yet, and we knew it would be detrimental to development of a young quarterback. So the thought was if we trade down, get Tradavius, he's gonna be a day one starter. Maybe not elite physical tools, but just a great football player. and when he's healthy, obviously he's played very well since he got to the league. So Again, it was an easy pick for where we were picking there and the whole strategy ended working out 'cause you got the extra pick for the following year and they were able to put that together to get Josh Allen. So the whole the the plan worked out according to plan. Neil Stratton: That's really interesting that that's that pick turned in, turned indirectly turned into Josh Allen. You could argue that the pick from the year before that you would have had, as well as Josh Allen, either the two top quarterbacks in the NFL. It's so funny how it Shawn Heinlen: Right. Yep. Neil Stratton: all works sometimes. Okay. Jalen Hurts, a second rounder out of Oklahoma in 2020 with the Eagles. Shawn Heinlen: That was just having a vision for him in the within the organization. seeing that he had certain skill set that we could work with, you put the right pieces around him, he could be successful. He may not be your traditional franchise quarterback type guy, based on just, you know, think of the Brady's and the Mannings, et cetera, but he had enough talent. And the thing that was undervalued with him was he's such an elite competitor. Like he is on a different plane than most other people. That chip on his shoulder is as big as a boulder and he's been able to overcome a lot of things because of that. Neil Stratton: Did you have a vision for really utilizing his mobility? Because even back then, I think we weren't certainly where we are right right now, where maybe the prototype is kind of the Lamar Jackson type, it's got the legs. I mean, was that was Shawn Heinlen: Right. Neil Stratton: it did you feel like you're gonna have to let's try to fit this guy into more of a drop back thing or was it always Shawn Heinlen: No, it was it was allow him to be able to do the things that he's good at. Let's let's put together a plan that he's what he does well and help him be successful. So let's not handicap him by taking him away and making him a pocket passer because that's just not what he's gonna be able to excel doing that. Allow him to be who he is. Neil Stratton: And then finally in 2022, while you're with the Eagles, Jordan Davis defended the tackle Shawn Heinlen: Okay. Neil Stratton: out of Georgia. Shawn Heinlen: Yeah. again, rare talent, rare physical tools. It was just getting comfortable with the ki with the young man and and just seeing how much maturing he needed to do and make sure we had the resources available to help him in that maturation process to become an adult and be a professional, and just being comfortable there. But the talent was was as rare as it gets. Rodrik David: Yeah, Sean. So again, you started with Marshawn and again, fit and personality. Again, that is such a huge, huge part of Road Scouting. The that area scouts have to nail that way everybody on the way up from again when the directors start getting them in, you know, October, November, December, all the way through the process is hey, we've got to figure out who this person is. And like you said, it's not always about, you know, do we like the personality? Is it a perfect personality? It's just Shawn Heinlen: Right. Rodrik David: Can we deal with it? Can we manage it? Can we do all those Shawn Heinlen: Right. Rodrik David: things? Again, some of these guys, hey, they're just clean, they're fits. How many times do you think you got to a spot where it's, hey, we're picking between these two guys? We love this guy, but the fit is not there right now, or the room, the team, the the 53 is not there. How many Shawn Heinlen: Yeah. Rodrik David: times did that conversation come down to, man, this person just isn't right, even though we love the player? Shawn Heinlen: That that happens a lot. I mean, in the twenty six years I've been doing this, that those conversations do happen a lot where it's, hey, we aren't built for this player right now. If we were in a different spot, maybe a couple of years from now, it could be someone that could fit in the building. But right now it just doesn't work for what we're trying to do. And I had the fortune, you know, I was fortunate to work with Marvel Levy and I I will never forget this, but in one of the draft meetings, it was probably in nine ish. He was like, do not confuse character with personality. So again, it's like, hey, the guy's personality might be a little off, but the guy loves football. He's a good person, like he's got a good heart. Don't fall out of love with a guy because you don't like his personality. You're not gonna get along with everyone, but if they're all going towards the same place, then it works. But again, when you get in those rooms, it's that's a big part of it'cause again, it's not just acquiring talent, it's about building a team and you have to make sure that everyone works in cohesion to get to your ultimate goal. Rodrik David: Yeah, no question. Neil Stratton: One team we didn't talk about, one none of the players we talked about was the work y'all did in Cleveland in the 2025 draft, which was exceptional, Sean. y'all took four players. Who started as rookies and I realize, you know, Cleveland doesn't necessarily have a bunch of Pro Bowlers on its on its roster, but the same time, four starters as rookies is pretty good. And two members of the all rookie team, in Carson Shawn Heinlen: Mm-hmm. Neil Stratton: Questinger and Mason Graham, along with two rookie quarterbacks, maybe not, you know, still kind of found their way, but they did take snaps with starters. as rookies. How long, Sean, did you know did it take y'all to know this class is pretty special and I think we hit on some players here. Shawn Heinlen: We felt really good just after the draft, that weekend after we thought we you know things fell our way really well. the plan Andrew and the executive team put together, it it worked really well, obviously. We got the guys we coveted. we felt good about it. Did we think it was gonna be that fast? No. We thought they'd be really contributions from a lot of players. we just didn't think they'd excel that fast. Carson was thrust into the spot because we had an injury. So again, he wasn't projected to be the starter going into the season, but because of an injury, he gets thrown in there. and obviously he took the reins and ran with it to rookie of the year, defensive rookie of the year. So again, we knew there was a lot of upside in these players. We knew the fit was good for what we're doing schematically on offense and defense. we just didn't think it would be instantaneous, but we thought as a group, we felt really good coming out of there that this was going to be a good class. Rodrik David: Sean, I want to ask you specifically. I want to ask you Neil Stratton: Now you mentioned earlier Go ahead, Rodney. Rodrik David: specifically on Mason Graham. Again, you drafted two guys in Marcel Darius, Jordan Davis, I'm sure more over the years that were, again, height, weight, speed, length. Like, again, guys, you just check all the boxes. Mason Graham, for as good a player as he was, there were some measurables that left you wanting more. What was it, again, when you start talking to those requisite traits? If he's not going to have thirty three thirty four plus and you know, X, Y, and Z on paper. What was it about Mason that made that again an easy pick, maybe from your the inside where a lot of people on the outside, well, maybe doesn't look like a prototypical first rounder. Shawn Heinlen: He fit the scheme. Jim Schwartz is attacking front. He fit exactly what Jim wants up front. So for us to get him was the is a no-brainer because he gets off the ball and he's disruptive in the backfield and he creates havoc. And that's exactly what we like up front in Jim's defense. And I've been fortunate was with him in Cleveland, Philly, and Buffalo. So I knew myself personally scouting it, it allows you to know exactly what he's looking for. And so for us as a group, we knew that that was a kind of guy that could help us. And obviously with his disruption You know, getting the guys up front that can help push some stuff to Miles where Miles isn't getting the focus and it led to Miles having the year he did last year because of because of the extra help he had up front. Rodrik David: Yeah, absolutely. Neil Stratton: Mm-hmm. One thing Roger can I talk about, I feel like teams are more trades heavy than they used to be. I think it's become a bit more of a trades draft. Would you agree with that, Sean? Or do you think people teams are still kind of trying to fit it all together rather than looking for guys with the ultim the elite speed or or what have you? Shawn Heinlen: Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, it when you look at it, the traits are always gonna trump a lot of things. So if you have questions, if the guy has traits, that's something you're gonna always be able to hang your hat on. So for the most part, if if you've got any questions, you're gonna take the guy with the traits just because you're hoping, and especially now with today's college football and guys bouncing from team to team year to year, they're just not getting developed as they had prior years because your coaches aren't getting a chance to work with them for longer than six months at a time. So you're gonna bet on the traits more than anything because you think there's more upside development in these kids. And if you have them f for us being able to have them for four or five years, depending on where you draft you've got a chance to be able to develop those traits f farther along than they currently are. Neil Stratton: Such a great point. Such a great point. Okay, so one of Ian's first acts as the new GM, Sean, is to name you director of the college director. Just give us a little bit about y'all's history together and why you think he decided to bring you to Atlanta. Shawn Heinlen: yeah, so Ian and I both were scouting in the southwest for a while, overlapping. and then I get hired in Philadelphia. Joe D brings me in. Obviously, Ian was probably signed off on that as well. Tom Donahoe was in the organization. I know, you know, Tom hired me in Buffalo as a scouting assistant. So those things all played for us. So then I was scouting under Ian as the college director. so there's some familiarity there. We've had conversations a lot over the years, been on the road together. So I think that familiarity, understanding the way we each other think, the way we evaluate guys of you know, we we have a lot of same thoughts on how to build teams, understanding the same grading scale of what Ian, you know, wanted to implement here. I've got a, you know, grasp on that from being together in Philadelphia. So I think all those things played into the part of of him, you know, giving me the opportunity to be the director here. Neil Stratton: All right, so Sean, your two previous employers, Philadelphia and Cleveland, both known as very progressive in how they scout. I think every team is still looking here we are in 2026 for that secret sauce, the perfect mix of analytics and traditional methods. We're not looking for proprietary information here, but how generally do you think y'all will kind of incorporate analytics and maybe modern methods into your evaluations? Shawn Heinlen: It's gonna be a big piece for us. the football tech team here is fantastic. AKA the the nerdy birds, Neil Stratton: Okay. Shawn Heinlen: they are a great group. They are they're on top of things. Like when we walked in, it was kind of amazing to see all the things they already had in place and that were kind of dormant, not being used, all the tools that they had created, because there are so many such a vast array of things that they have put together. but we've been able to start using that, synthesizing the information, letting that to just help us inform us to make better decisions. personnel and football operations in general. So they're they're gonna be a big integral part of what we do as we build the or the team and the organization going forward. We're really excited about that integration and making sure that we're all on the same page. And you know, they're actually working in conjunction with us. They're gonna come out on the road with us here and there so they can see what we do. We're gonna shift offices around here in the building so that we're actually working hand in hand, side by side in the building. So again, it's gonna be a big piece is everything we do with our football operations and and the decisions we make going forward. Neil Stratton: Very interesting. Very interesting. All right. So Sean, 26 years in scouting, you've had a chance to work with some pretty big names at the GM level, at in front offices across the board. I just want to throw a couple names out. Just give me a couple sentences on each of them. One you've already talked about somewhat extensively, Tom Donahoe with the Bills. Shawn Heinlen: Yeah, Tom, I still talk to him to this day. someone I go to for advice. He's been a huge mentor for me over the years. he's just steady, consistent. He's just he's the CEO type. You know, he was president and GM when I first started. gave him my start in the in the NFL. And you know, just all the wisdom he's given me over the years has been tremendous about just, you know, being where your feet are and then, you know, not trying to get too far ahead of yourself and just trusting the process and doing things the right way. It's it's been a A huge help for me in my my career. Neil Stratton: Okay. Another another guy you work with in the b with the Bills, buddy Nix. Shawn Heinlen: Yeah, Buddy, so Buddy was a the scouting director when I was an intern and then came back full circle as a GM. True football guy to his core. I mean, you know, he no nonsense, no BS, straightforward person. he's gonna shoot you straight, tell you like it is. He was one of those guys that you would always wanted to cut through all the BS. Like you he just wanted straightforward, just give me the facts. He always said, Don't tell me about the you know the labor pain, just show me the baby. So it was one of those things where you get in draft meetings, if guys started getting wordy, he'd just cut off like, What does this guy do for us? So he just kinda gave me a better perspective on how to hone in my skills to be able to just be concise with with my evaluations and making sure I got my message across. Neil Stratton: Mm-hmm. I think your last GM with the Bills and a guy who's been on the show, I think at least once, maybe twice, Doug Whaley, also in Buffalo. Shawn Heinlen: Doug is a fantastic human being, so inclusive and and really truly cared about his people and allowed you to grow. He wanted to push you to be the best you could be. He he really just truly cared about making sure that you were taking care of your family. just a great person to work for. He's like, you know, you get those players coaches, like he's a a personnel GM. Like he was such a great, genuine person who just truly cared about you as a person first and wanted to make sure that you were able to to do everything you wanted to do in your life and career. It's great. Neil Stratton: GM who's consistently in the top two, three, four, whenever the lists of best are are are put together, Harry Roseman Shawn Heinlen: Yeah. Neil Stratton: with the Eagles. Shawn Heinlen: Yeah, Howie's the ultimate negotiator. Everything with him, he's he's so tactical. He's always thinking outside the box. his brain is always working. He's able to just ingest so much information at the same time and be able to work through it so fast. it's just really amazing to see how he he operates. his energy level is out of this world. again, it's it's great to just watch him work and just see how to manage. so many different things at one time and work through and get to the endpoint that he always does. It's it's pretty amazing to see. Neil Stratton: The last one, your your most recent GM prior to Ian, Shawn Heinlen: Yeah. Neil Stratton: Andrew Berry with the Browns. Shawn Heinlen: Yeah, Andrew, great person. He's really easy to work for. He's such he's the antithesis of a micromanager. He gives his people their jobs and s and lets them just do it to the in with autonomy. He doesn't try and force it anyway. He just allows you to do your job and he's just so thorough and thought out and everything he does and he trusts his people. That's just a a great thing to see because there's a lot of people that just in this profession I've seen over the years that really want to micromanage and are really critical of every little thing and he just allows you to to work through your process and get to the point. And then he's got a plan in the background that just kind of all works together. So it's it's it was a great thing to say and great thing, great person to work for. Fantastic boss. Neil Stratton: Okay. All right. So anytime there's a change of GM, there are changes on the scouting staff. And I think that's one thing that Roger and I have tried to emphasize that that's not a merit thing, that's just a comfort thing, really, more than anything else, I think. What were the goals you and Ian tried to accomplish as y'all started to assemble and maybe retool the scouting staff in Atlanta? Shawn Heinlen: Big thing is just finding the right people that fit what we're looking to build here. just just finding people who are passionate about the craft, who have a growth mindset, just people that aren't afraid to speak their mind and have conviction. they can be concise with their thoughts and talking points and be very detailed. again, we we want to make sure that everyone feels inclusive that they have a voice. But when you do speak, you have to come with conviction and detail and be very thorough. And not just wishy washy and just kinda go with the room. We want people who have, you know, conviction in what they say. we encourage the dialogue. So we we want everyone to talk, we want everyone to be involved, from the executives down to the scouting assistants. We want people to speak their mind because the collaboration we think is that's where the magic happens. When you guys can collaborate and you come together and you can work through the sticking points, that's where you actually, you know, can build something special. Rodrik David: Yeah, there's there's, know, Sean, you've got a bunch of good scouts there. Again, a bunch of my former colleagues that I gotta work with from Tumbo, Rossi, Doyle, Dante, Rich, again, a bunch of good ones. And one of the Shawn Heinlen: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Rodrik David: challenges, you know, for a new director coming in from the outside is hey, some of these guys are gonna hit the road in August. And as a director, you're not going to get much, if any, FaceTime with them before maybe December meetings or before you bring them in for a week of meetings. How do you stepping into this new role, actually get to know personally your scouting stuff, not just the reports that they put on paper, the words, their writing style. How Shawn Heinlen: Right. Right. Rodrik David: do you how do you get to know your staff, you know, in the, you know, the busiest time of the year for area scouts? Shawn Heinlen: Yeah, so we were very intentional about bringing guys in for rookie minicamp, mandatory minicamp, et cetera. We've done a lot of social events when they've been in town. 'cause myself, Jeff Scott, Ian, we've all got to get to know these guys better on a personal level. you know, I've known a lot of these guys just being on the road and crossing paths and again, Tumbo and Rossi and I, we've we've all been in this pretty long time. So Harrison, the same thing. So we I've got a good feel for a lot of the guys because I've I've known them just being on the road, school visits, et cetera. But now in this new role of just being intentional to reach out and have conversations with everyone, just see where they're at, personally, professionally, making sure that everything that we're giving them that's new, they understand it, making sure they're comfortable, just those types of things. Just it's just again, just being intentional to help develop the relationship and foster things as we go forward. So that way they don't feel like they're just on an island out there. Again, being on the road for twenty five years, like I have, I I understand how it can be out there on the road. So I'm gonna make it a point for myself to make sure those guys feel connected and that I'm here whenever they need anything, any time of day. Just give me a call, give me a text, whatever you need, I'm gonna be here to help out. Rodrik David: Yeah, no, that's so important. Again, to to have that direct line, not feel like you're stepping on toes, contacting anybody. And again, I'd imagine, you know, with your background being on the road, again, you'll probably be sitting next to in school visits and there's no better way to, you know, understand. Again, there's quiet scouts, there are again leader scout. There's a lot of different, like you said, personalities. Everybody's got their role and figuring that out beyond what happens there in flowery branches is a huge part of again, knowing and getting that staff where you want them. Shawn Heinlen: Right. Yeah, we feel we got a great mix. I mean, we've got some veterans and we've got a lot of group of guys that are just getting close to that ten year mark and then a handful of younger guys. And again, a lot of them have all been homegrown here through the Falcons. So for them to see a different way of doing things from myself and my years over the the the several GMs I've had, and then Ian obviously with the way he's developed over the years from Chicago and Philly and Baltimore, et cetera, and what he's built and how we want things to go. It's it's it's a great thing to see for us to be able to to show these guys some different methods of how to do things and help them grow because ultimately we want everyone to be successful, not just as a team, but individually as well. Neil Stratton: Do you see yourself, especially in year one, Sean, as maybe spending more time in the office just because you're trying to kind of get your feet underneath or I I'm you're smiling as I'm asking this question. I know you, Shawn Heinlen: No chance. No chance. Neil Stratton: Sean. I know you're gonna be on the road. Is that gonna be a Shawn Heinlen: Highways and byways, baby. Here I come. Neil Stratton: big part of it? I don't even know why I asked that question. Shawn Heinlen: I mean I'll I will get my days in the 'cause I've got, you know, some things I have to do here in the office, but for the during the fall I will be hitting the road as hard as possible. with every free minute that I have, I'll be out there on a college campus somewhere kicking rocks and shaking the bushes to see what we can find. Neil Stratton: Not a bit surprised by that answer. Okay, so you're not the only new face from Cleveland. Kevin Stefanski is the new head coach. Do you think your background with Kevin helps you at all? Shawn Heinlen: Yeah, I do. I I think it's gonna help with the learning curve because having been with Kevin for the last four years in Cleveland, I have a better understanding of the types of players he looks for, the makeup of the players he likes, guys that fit his schemes. and again, we can just talk through players because we've been doing it for the last four years and understand and we both kind of know each other well enough. And then that allows me to help translate to the guys on the road, hey, this is what coach is looking for when he says this, this is what he means. so it helps those guys get on the page faster and it allows us to be able to get to you know, through the draft and and find the guys with that coach is looking for. Rodrik David: Yeah. Sean, you talk again, going back to your again, origins in coaching and kind of dabbling in coaching before you realized it was the scouting element. Again, there's scouts across the NFL that's like, man, they have never coached a day in their life, or hey, life coaches that, hey, now let's try this scouting thing. How important is that mix of having some coaching understanding, some schematic understanding, at least a baseline? And then for those that are maybe coming up short in one area or the other. How do you how do you supplement it to make sure, hey, we've got really good football people on both the scot scouting and coaching side kind of bringing bringing us these reports? Shawn Heinlen: Yeah, I do think it's important. There's a baseline you just have to understand football in general, obviously, to be able to do it. and again, it helps you be able to have the conversations with the coaches when we they get integrated into the process in the springtime as we start getting closer to making the picks. You're gonna have those conversations about how they fit us specifically. So to be able to answer questions they may have because they're not gonna have the access to the to the coaches in the fall like we do on the road. or the all star games, et cetera. They they just don't have the access. So we have to be able have those answers for them before they ask the questions. So to have that baseline is is really important. You don't have to get into the deep dive, nitty gritty, you know, of being able to go through every nuance of every position, but you have to have a certain level of each position to be able to have those conversations. So Neil Stratton: Sean, you with almost 30 years in scouting, you've seen a lot of college directors, you've seen their styles, how they do their work. How do you feel? Do you do you feel like you're maybe a more ready to be a college director because of your experience? Or do you still feel like you're kind of trying to figure out exactly what style you want to pursue? Shawn Heinlen: it's probably a little both. I mean, I do feel like I I'm ready for the challenge. I've seen a lot of different ways to do it and how not to do it. So I have an understanding of how I want to do it. but obviously implementing it and again managing different personalities and those types of things I haven't had to do a whole lot of because I haven't had a lot of people under me over the years. so that part will take a little bit of adjustment as I get through the staff and we you know, we work through things and again the trials and tribulations that go through a season we haven't had yet. So Just working through those things will be some of it, but I do think as far as the overall scope of it all, I I think I've been ready for it. Neil Stratton: right, so having built as many relationships as you have, and you have built a lot of them, you you get used to working with people, working alongside, and and I don't know that sharing information is the right way to put it, but but you certainly kind of come there's a certain level of consensus that everybody reaches out on the road. How do you balance that relationship with being a bit more secretive, a bit more protect my sources as a director? versus the way maybe things were when you were a a road guy. Shawn Heinlen: Yeah, I there's there's certain things you're you're never gonna give up. I mean that's that's gonna give you the competitive advantage. And then obviously every relationship you have is a little different. I mean, I've got guys like co director in in Kansas City, David Henson, him and I were roommates twenty five years ago. Like you know, we've Neil Stratton: Yeah. Shawn Heinlen: been ch at each other's weddings, we've seen our kids raised, like he's family, right? So like those relationships go deeper than some guys that you've just been on the road with and you know, so conversations are different. depending on you're talking to, but there's some things you're you're just never gonna give up. I mean, we have two ears and one mouth for a reason. So you're gonna listen more than you talk and you gotta keep some things in house because again, that's again, we're all trying to win championships. And if you give up all the information, you're hurting yourself from doing that. So there's a delicate balance of all of it. But again, you've got relationships and you got people you can trust and there's certain conversations you'll have with some people that you won't have with others. Rodrik David: Yeah. Certainly, Sean. Again, one of the big things that I have have thought about since, you know, my my time with the Falcons has come to an end is is the development piece for scouts. And it's we know how busy every college area scout director in your college rank, the fall is extremely busy, but it doesn't get any better during the spring. You try to grab some time, you get the combine, again, pro day, like there's not time for real formal development. But as you've experienced again, 26 years you start to expand your net and maybe take on some responsibility here and there that's going to better prepare you when Shawn Heinlen: Right. Rodrik David: the opportunity to be a director, co-director, move on up is. Is that something like, hey, your experience is is is kind of the way I want to develop my scouts? Is it going be something more formal? How do you view the development that needs to happen for good leaders to to grow and ascend in an organization. Shawn Heinlen: Yeah, that's being driven from the top with Ian. I mean, the conversations Ian, Jeff, Tombo, and myself have had, we're gonna be very intentional with developing everyone in our organization for the next step. you know, we truly believe that we're gonna be successful here, and with success becomes attrition. You're gonna lose people because as we know in this league, people poach from the teams that are winning. So our plan is to win gains and we're gonna lose people. So we're gonna be very intentional with training everyone underneath to be ready for that next step. So we've developed a lot of things to be able to integrate. the scouts into part of, you know, my process. Hey, I've got to work on a certain project to get ready for training camp. I want you and you to help me with this piece. we've got some of the younger scouts actually doing presentations at training camp to help just get them to more comfortable speaking in front of the group, having to do some research. so again, like for us it's really important to develop the people because if they feel like they're being developed so they can reach their individual goals, it's going to help us collectively reach our group goal of winning the, you know hosting the Lombardi trophy. So again, it's it's something that we take pride in that we're gonna be make sure is a priority for us to develop everyone in the building to be able to go on to the next step because at the end of the day, when your people are happy, they're gonna work harder. So again, that's something that we're very conscious of. Rodrik David: Yeah, absolutely. Well again, like you said, there's some great people in that building that that again we'll be rooting for this fall. And as as we wrap up here, Sean, again, it's been a great man, we're at we're at forty minutes and man, I'm ready to dive in and try to grab some of those Falcon secrets. But again, we're we're not gonna do that. I'd imagine you're smarter than Neil and I. You're not out on social medias, not going to be tweeting about every visit you're making this fall and all the players you're seeing. You know, you're gonna Shawn Heinlen: No. No. Rodrik David: be grinding. Every scout's doing it, blue collar work, getting to a hotel, grinding out some reports, right? Shawn Heinlen: For the most part, if you see my social media, it's usually something my kids did. That'll be about it. So Rodrik David: Good. Well, that's perfect. Those are the best highlights of life. We love football. We love what you Shawn Heinlen: Yep. Rodrik David: do, but again, always gotta go back to the core to the foundation of who you are. Sean, again, you guys are getting kicked off here. What day officially rookies reporting this week? They will be here Fridays, vet shortly after, and I'd imagine Shawn Heinlen: They'll be here they'll be here Friday. Get roll on Friday. Right. Neil Stratton: Wow, it's here. Rodrik David: probably early August is is almost always the case circle to get back on the road, right? Shawn Heinlen: Scouts will be here next Monday. Rodrik David: Beautiful. Well it is again, Flower Branch is not an easy spot to get to from the airport. Any scouting assistant that's ever done that trip knows that Atlanta Shawn Heinlen: No. Yeah, I don't envy those guys. Rodrik David: traffic is something else. If they could go and just run that MARTA station all the way out. Arthur, come on, you know, we you know come on, go ahead and just you know make that happen, help the Atlanta Scouting Assistants out. Shawn Heinlen: Delta just needs to fly to Gwinnett County. It would be all fine if they did that. Rodrik David: That would that would be again, sometimes you wonder just grind flying to Greenville, South Carolina is an easier trip 'cause at least you're not dealing with downtown Atlanta. Shawn Heinlen: I've I've I've actually looked into that already for my fall travels. Don't kid yourself. Rodrik David: Yeah, absolutely. So again, you know, Sean, we really appreciate it. Always always great having a Falcon on a guy, a scout, scout on the podcast. Really appreciate it and good luck this fall. Shawn Heinlen: I appreciate you guys. Thanks so much for having me on. Neil Stratton: Thank you, Sean. Shawn Heinlen: Take care.