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Talks to Steven B & Jack Coyer about The Time Monster (4/6) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

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  None. Hamster with a Blump pen knife
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  for doing quicker, quicker. Welcome back to A Hamster with a
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  Blump Pen Knife, the Doctor Who Commentary podcast and You Will
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  Obey Me, Stephen B and Jack Coyet.
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  No, what am I? Always, Joe, Always that.
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  Promise. We are here today to spend half
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  an hour in a room with no plot movement whatsoever.
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  And what's the Thai monster episode 4?
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  How are you enjoying the story so far guys?
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  Jack? Yeah, I know.
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  I mean, I'm enjoying it quite a bit.
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  I think that it's a welcome change now, but we're going, you
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  know, into a different location and, you know, certain
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  characters are going to be focused on that.
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  Haven't really been give them as much attention in the last
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  couple of episodes. I'm always an advocate for as
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  much you know, Katie Manning as it can give you a service.
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  Obviously a time for her to shine because she's been sort of
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  taken aback seat in the last couple of episodes.
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  And yeah, I'm excited to see the story change.
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  There's been nowhere near enough self sacrifice in this story,
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  has there? You won't be short changed on
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  that score. And just to see if I'm not sure
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  I've ever done this to you before, Stephen, but to see if
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  you have been paying attention to the Thai monster between
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  episodes 1-2 and three, please would you tell the listeners who
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  may not have listened to our first 3, And if not, why not?
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  What has occurred in the story today?
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  Off you go. In in the plot itself very
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  little the master has. The master has summoned Kronos,
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  then the master has summoned Crassus, and now we've had a few
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  other things being summoned through time and it looks like
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  Mike Gates is dead. But we as Jack says.
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  Is this now Part 2 BAKA episode 4 or is it the beginning of Part
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  2 and the last half the back end of of the time monster?
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  I'm not too sure. I think the story does
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  definitely take A twist and change of direction at this
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  point, but perhaps it's not until episode 5 that the that
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  the next bit of the story truly unfolds.
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  And I wonder whether this episode ahead is probably the
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  one where we'll find the most padding and the most hanging
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  about, waiting for 25 minutes of television to happen.
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  Given the fact that one to three really don't inform the rest of
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  the story, I'm scared this might be Part 1.
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  This is where the story begins. As a complete side note, I have
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  to say to you guys, I meant to mention it earlier, that is
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  unfortunate detail that the clocking in and pay system at
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  work is called Kronos. And when I was a manager at
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  Sainsbury's, every single time I'd say I'd log it on and I'd
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  always say it in the same way like Stuart Hyde.
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  Kronos would look at me in a very odd way or I'd boot up the
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  system going come Kronos come. They just figured I was very
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  eccentric. Now I will say I've got some
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  questions I'm going to throw to you in this episode because it
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  is basically standing around there.
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  Nothing. Or should we skip into part
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  four? Yeah, definitely.
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  Hey. Well, Stephen, why don't you
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  count as it? Certainly 54321 play.
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  OK, so I'm going to immediately ask the question then, and that
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  is from Fraser Gregory, your friend of mine, who asks why is
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  Yates sacked off in favour of Benton.
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  Oh, this is a really good question.
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  In terms of the story, in terms of the overall unit era, I
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  think, I mean, Mike Yates comes in at the beginning of Terror of
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  the Autons and is meant to be dashing, dashing young captain
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  who's, you know, the second in charge and is at that point
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  probably positioned to be an audience or a character that the
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  audience wants to follow in a way that we haven't as yet with
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  Benton in, say, Season 7. Not to the same degree as we
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  sort of find later on. Well, I just genuinely think
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  it's the charisma of the actor, of the two actors that separates
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  them. And that means that Benton is
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  given more and more to do as he progresses throughout his
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  tenure. And Yates sort of realizes, or
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  not Gates, but Richard Franklin sort of realized, or they
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  realized about Richard Franklin rather, that maybe he's not
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  going to be the dashing young captain.
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  And we can set him up with Joe that we've set up with Joe in.
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  In fact, he's not a character that probably works, and I think
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  that's largely due to the acting are.
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  You suggesting then that Richard Franklin has had a charisma
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  bypass? No, I.
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  Just I just think that Ian Marder would have been a better
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  choice for Captain Mark Yates then.
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  We wouldn't have had Harry. That's true too, yeah.
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  What do you reckon, Jack? Yeah, I mean, it could have been
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  worse. He could have been suggesting
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  that John Levine had a charisma overlay, which I think would
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  have been perhaps even worse suggesting.
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  But yeah, I do understand. But I think it's partly because
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  of behind the scenes just practicalities.
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  You know, John Levine was, to put it mildly, always available
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  whenever adopted one needed him to be.
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  And, you know, he was someone who was gotten well with Douglas
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  Canfield, therefore was used in the weather.
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  Fear therefore was reused in the invasion.
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  Therefore we have another UNIT soldier ready to go.
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  Whereas Richard might be aged, he's a much more complex
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  character and definitely more of an invention of the era as both
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  as John Levine, who was just. It would be nice if we had a
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  grunt that you know the kids would recognise from the year
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  before. Two things are about the war on
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  the did you notice that man then who turned up just to do a bit
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  of country bumping exposition? Who are I believe that's where
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  that doodle bug fell. You know, thanks for that.
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  But also a very rare sight of blood in Doctor Who sort of
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  raise the stakes a little bit like Jace is is properly hurt.
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  Oh God, here he goes. He's going to take take the
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  TARDIS out of his tractor. You know, I think.
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  About what they've given Yates to do, you know, and you know,
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  he's got a lot to do in Terror of the Autons.
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  He's got a really great subplot, I think in the Mind of Evil.
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  Then there's that wonderful trilogy that eventually sort of
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  writes him out. And that's that's a great piece
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  of and very rare piece of character development.
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  So it's not like Yates has nothing to do and is underserved
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  throughout the entire period. Like, there's, there's
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  definitely enough there. But yeah, as I say, I just don't
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  think Richard Franklin sort of rises to the challenge.
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  I've got a a second question about Yeats and Benton from
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  Cyhart this time. Oh yeah.
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  And he asked should they have taken?
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  Oh no, it's just Benton's way. Should they have taken Benton or
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  the Brig to Atlantis? I mean, I think Benton's wide
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  eyed wonderment, which obviously we get the next story for the
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  Doctors, she in the inside of the TARDIS would be a sort of,
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  it would be an interesting shite to put that character in in
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  harm's way. Because I think there's a sort
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  of meta look at the role of the companion.
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  But you're the one who's sort of signed up to be in Doctor Who.
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  And I think the UNIT class members or the UNIT characters
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  are the first main characters who it doesn't feel like we've
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  signed up to be in Doctor Who much as we get in the news show
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  with, you know, Jackie, Tyler and whoever else.
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  These are characters who didn't ask to be in Doctor Who.
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  So I think it'd be interesting to sort of take those people and
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  remove them from their comforts. And because what we?
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  Saw of the Brigadier and the Three Doctors though.
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  What on earth reaction would he have had to Atlantis in this?
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  Yeah. Well, you've probably been quite
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  a mammoth. We've been a good bit probably.
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  Although the Brigadier versus the Monitor could be quite fun.
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  Alright, well, I've got a question for both of you then,
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  and it because this episode starts leading into the Doctor
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  Master rivalry. Do you think that sort of that's
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  something that naturally grew out of this era?
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  Do do you think it's something that works?
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  Do you like Delgado and Pertwee playing off against each other?
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  Let's throw it to Jack first. Yeah, I love it.
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  I mean, if it's a very basic, you know, Shevard, Holmes,
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  Moriarty, it's obviously the story that Terence Dipps and
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  Barry let's tell all the time. And it's just a, the, the idea
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  being that obviously we can't just stay on Earth all the time
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  and have either invent an excuse as to how we can use the TARDIS
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  or we have an alien invasion or some military stuff.
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  So I think there needs to be a sort of nemesis that we can move
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  against because obviously we have, we don't have the Daleks
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  back when we had the Master. We're not going to have the
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  Cybermen for a few years. So there needs to be having that
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  recurring threat. And in Season 7, you could argue
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  that the recurring sweat is a unit or at least like a
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  recurring annoyance. And so we meet now that he's
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  more chummy with unit, we need a sort of a different bad guy to
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  fight against. And yeah, I, I can understand
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  why they're reducing his role so that he's not in every story
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  now. But yeah, I think it works
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  really well. And it's, I think for a lot of
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  people, even people who don't like this story, I think it's
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  probably the final element of it.
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  Stephen I, I think you cannot have the 3rd Doctor without the
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  Master. And there's so many reasons for
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  that. Obviously, as Jack says, it
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  gives, it gives the, the show an antagonist in a way that the
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  First Doctor had the dialects, the Second Doctor had the
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  Cyberman and the 3rd Doctor has the Master.
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  And I think that works beautifully in the progression
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  around that. Like it's it's the same
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  progression that Russell uses in his first three series of of new
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  who. Yes, it.
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  Is. Yeah, yeah, and, and, and, and
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  so, you know, there's, there's a great sort of logic to that as
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  well. The great failing, though, is
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  that we don't get that, you know, fall the Rackenbach Falls
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  moment because of Roger's horribly unhappy ending.
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  And I think that would have, you know, capped the era
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  wonderfully. But, you know, when I think
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  about the Third Doctor and I think about his era, you know,
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  the UNIT family is the first thing that comes to mind.
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  And Roger Delgado is such a central part of that, even
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  though he's actually the villain of the peace.
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  And you can't, you can't have this era without the Master.
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  And to the point where I don't think it's a, you know, a fault
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  or you know a mistake to have Roger in every single story in
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  in series in Season 8. I think it works beautifully as
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  a result. It's so funny come the demons
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  Episode 3, we're so in love with the Master so he gets the
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  cliffhanger. My God, how is the Master going
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  to get out? Of this one.
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  Fuck the Doctor. But what what I find really
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  interesting is I don't think you get the relationship between the
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  Doctor and the Master at any other point aside from Capaldi
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  and Missy in the new series. Because you certainly don't get
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  it with Amy and Davidson, despite the fact they have a
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  couple of meets. And I think it is just how much
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  time we get with the two of them together to explore the sort of
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  the love and the height of it. And it totally comes again with
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  Capaldi and Gomez in the Moffett years.
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  And again, it's because there's so many instances of the
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  meeting, so there's so many chances to explore the two
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  characters. I think part of the issue is
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  because the new series has a lot more remit to get a lot darker
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  and dropping Doctor Who into the real world.
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  There's only so much morally corrupt, terrible things that
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  the Master can do before we actually go actually, why on
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  earth is the Doctor friends with this person?
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  Like, you've got Sasha, the one swanning around in a Gustavo
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  uniform, and you kind of, I've got to say, at some point I just
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  don't want the doctor to be remotely pally with this person.
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  But they're not. Really.
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  Was she she did expose? Well, no, the the few kids, you
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  know, Missy does a lot of killing aim he does a not and
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  it's not abstract killing nothing.
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  The Apopolis where you know, I've killed 1/4 of the universe.
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  Well, I can't see any of them. You know, where the the the
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  visual impact of, you know, John SIM pretend to me being a
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  domestic abuser in the seriously finale, you know, stuff like
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  that is real world harm. And I just think at a certain
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  point, I as a zero just go, well, actually, let's screw them
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  after I I don't care. But you would, you know, have
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  picnics at university or whatever.
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  Like at some point you've got to not be friends with this person.
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  Otherwise, I'm going to start questioning your.
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  The thing about the SIM master in the sound of Drums, the
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  second he sends those toklifane down and says wipe out 10% of
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  the population, he's got to go At the end of that story.
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  There is no way that character can be redeemed.
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  Whereas, I mean, Delgado hurts people and things like that, but
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  is he really truly evil? I don't know.
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  By the time we get to Frontier in Space, you know, you have
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  that episode where they're all in the cell together, and it's
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  like Doctor Who the sitcom. This is true.
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  I I think that's an artifact of Roger's and John's relationship
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  and with the rest of the cast as well.
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  Yes, we do get a number of stories, but you think about the
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  way that the Masters portrayed in Terror of the Autonomous
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  where he tries to kill the Doctor 7 times through the most
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  ludicrous of means and every moment is about destroying his
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  great foe. And you know, certainly by the
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  Thai monster and even by, as you say, his last appearance in
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  Frontier in Space, there's a much more pally domesticated,
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  defunct version of the Master. And it's because he's become
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  part of the furniture. He's now part of the family.
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  Because the chemistry is so good.
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  Like the bit in Frontier in Space where he comes in and
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  starts listing the list of evil crimes that the doctors
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  committed. Yeah.
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  Why? He's arresting him or taking him
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  away. I mean, as TV, as entertainment,
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  it's gold. Because their chemistry is So
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  what? Look on Perkery's face.
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  You know it's gorgeous. And I guess you're looking at
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  what are this all by comic hero and villain confrontations of
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  the period. So, you know, developer and
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  Perkery are very much going off, as we say, Moriarty and Holmes
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  or, you know, Blofeld and, you know, would just come to the end
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  of Sean Connery's time as James Bond.
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  So I think that's what they're going for.
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  And whereas nowadays modern masters, I think, you know, the
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  Doctor is often portrayed as a sort of dark Avenger and the
• 16:56
  Master is a sort of psychotic, you know, might be a terrorist,
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  might be a murderer. I think they're very much in the
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  range of 2008, The Dark Knight. And I think they're very much
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  Christopher Nolan's Batman. And he in particular, Heath
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  Ledger's version of the Joker. I think I'd probably be villains
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  in media, but but they're pulling the most stuff from us.
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  Don't you love it in the new series when they just remember
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  just how shit the Master can be? So when he's got that terrible
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  disguise on in the world, nothing time.
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  Or when he pulls the man out of the matchbox in Spy for the
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  tissue compression, I'm like, oh, I'm glad they're not
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  forgetting those things. Those very campy.
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  Things. Yeah, it.
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  Was so much of Benson Roof and Stew in this episode?
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  Well, that's because there's none of them in the next couple
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  of episodes. So I suppose this is the so this
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  episode is those two plot lines and then five and six.
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  Would you sort of jump to you? Just sort of there was a screen
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  right now, you know, you could be watching man about the house
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  or something like that. Oh yeah, three of them.
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  Yeah, that's Richard O'Sullivan there on the right.
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  Their best mate who just happens to be in the army.
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  Well, I figured this was all in the TARDIS, but actually it
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  doesn't seem to be. OK.
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  Here's another question for you then.
• 18:23
  My God, I'm full of them today. It's like Mastermind, so heavy
• 18:29
  TARDIS scenes. So I'm thinking of you, Castro
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  Balva's mind Rubber one Lagopolis journey to the centre
• 18:36
  of the TARDIS. And maybe that's a bad example,
• 18:39
  but stories which have a lot of time in the TARDIS.
• 18:42
  Do you have a lot of time for that, Stephen?
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  OK, well, you know that I do because I love Castro Velver and
• 18:50
  I love the godless. But the reason, the reason why I
• 18:53
  do is actually missing here. And that is the inherent threat
• 18:59
  and maybe even conceptual horror of what danger may lie within
• 19:03
  the TARDIS or the threat posed by the TARDIS itself.
• 19:07
  Edge of Destruction is another example of this entirely missing
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  here. This is, you know, I mean, that
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  could be, you know, talking to one another over the telephone
• 19:16
  from the living rooms. There isn't anything inherent
• 19:18
  about, you know, the TARDIS as a as a as a space, A liminal space
• 19:24
  of potential threat as well as wonder that is so critical to
• 19:29
  Castrovel over, for instance, where the machine
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  malfunctioning. They're on their way to the
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  certain dunes in event one, and the temperature's rising in
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  Ligopoulos, that incredible sequence where they continue to
• 19:43
  walk through the TARDIS doors into a deeper and darker and
• 19:49
  more sort of echoing version of that TARDIS.
• 19:53
  And what what is this is, is this an infinite loop that
• 19:56
  they're trapped in? That kind of conceptual horror
• 19:58
  that comes from inverting a space that is meant to be safe
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  and presenting it as dangerous because of something that's
• 20:05
  happening either outside or inside, or something has got
• 20:07
  from the outside into the inside.
• 20:10
  That's missing here. They could do that here because
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  you do have the same image of the TARDIS within the TARDIS.
• 20:17
  But yeah, I think the issue is the TARDIS has lost its, as
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  Stephen was saying, it's function and its purpose.
• 20:24
  Because what is it? It's not a home in in this era
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  in particular. It's not a home, a place of
• 20:31
  refuge. It's not even a time and space
• 20:34
  travel machine anymore. But it's the time logs are taken
• 20:37
  that away. So what is it?
• 20:39
  It's just another set on the studio floor.
• 20:42
  I'll tell. You what it is.
• 20:44
  Yeah, I'll tell you what it is. It's a visual gag and another
• 20:47
  endless scene of artillery. Because it's the TARDIS within
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  TARDIS. Oh, isn't that a clever idea?
• 20:53
  OK. But what are you going to do
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  with it? And they don't do anything with
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  it. Because they're focusing on the
• 20:57
  rivalry here, that them talking and all that, rather than the
• 21:00
  concepts. And the concept is really
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  enticing, right? Although I'm not sure why
• 21:05
  there's a lot of washing up bowls all over the TARDIS.
• 21:07
  Yeah, it's a Red Bull design, isn't it?
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  So this is Tim, Tim Gleason, isn't it?
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  And it is as a result of those bowls that Barry let's basically
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  says no, we're not doing that ever again.
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  I don't think they employ. You get that iconic sort of Tom
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  Baker design next, don't you? Which first comes along in Three
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  Doctors. Yeah, last one story, but.
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  Again, that's, you know, it's OK to redesign it in that story
• 21:35
  because the Tarvis is gaining its function back again.
• 21:39
  It it is now a time and space travel machine from that story
• 21:44
  onwards. Well, for for two more years and
• 21:48
  then we're going to have another year where the clip is a bit
• 21:50
  again, you know, in season 12. What do you see, man?
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  What the hell is going on with Benton?
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  Has he been sucked through a black hole?
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  It's not a great special effect, is it?
• 22:05
  No. Is anyone going to dare to
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  mention John Levine and the baby?
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  Oh, maybe when we get to. It John Levine and the other
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  baby, you mean? Oh, a legibly.
• 22:19
  A legibly. Oh, you were on my side in a
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  fight, you know. The that that's still, though I
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  think we cut back to it 3 or 4 times this episode of the
• 22:30
  Brigadier in the UNIT Men. It's literally a still it's
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  there for a couple of seconds. You wonder whether your telly's
• 22:35
  on the blink. And what does Barry, let's say
• 22:38
  he says it when he's watching Planet of the Daleks in the
• 22:40
  commentary, he goes, we've cut back to that effect shot three
• 22:43
  times. He goes, I would tell people,
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  don't do that. The more times you see it, the
• 22:47
  more you can see how it's done. Yeah, but I just want to know,
• 22:51
  do you reckon they got a performance fee for the
• 22:54
  inclusion of those stills in this episode?
• 22:58
  Are they in the Cribbins Black? Fee they got.
• 23:00
  Off. It depends, yeah.
• 23:04
  What is all this now? The backward language?
• 23:08
  Yeah, we. Yeah, we.
• 23:10
  Now permit John Pertwee is actually doing that live, which
• 23:14
  is and. I no, I hate it.
• 23:17
  It's so if they would, if Paul Bernard was to do this
• 23:21
  correctly, he would have had Pertwee speak normally and then
• 23:23
  just played it backwards. It's not difficult.
• 23:25
  It's not a huge special effect. But yeah, we've just got this
• 23:28
  crap pseudo Russian. The trouble is though, is Barry
• 23:33
  let's says again and again about long stories that are either six
• 23:37
  or seven parts. You have to introduce something
• 23:40
  around the episode 3 or 4 mark to kick into the second-half of
• 23:44
  the story, right? So why the fuck has he forgotten
• 23:47
  that here and just have them all standing around for half an
• 23:49
  hour? It's because we've already
• 23:51
  introduced the second-half of the story thing, which is
• 23:54
  Atlantis. We already introduced that in
• 23:56
  Episode 1 and then did a bit more introducing in Episode 2
• 24:00
  and then a little bit more and we still haven't got there yet,
• 24:05
  but we keep don't. Worry the story is going to.
• 24:08
  Start in episode 5. Don't worry, all right, things
• 24:10
  will start moving then. But it's a good comparison to
• 24:14
  make with Frontier in space because the episode on the ship
• 24:17
  where the Doctrine Joe are in prison and the masks in charge
• 24:20
  is just as indulgent. It's just the three actors.
• 24:24
  It's so much more watchable than this.
• 24:26
  And I think it's because all of that stuff is what 1 is written
• 24:28
  by Malcolm Hulk, and it's rooted in character with great gags.
• 24:33
  Her doing that insane speech about, you know, my friends all
• 24:37
  think being a spy unit is the most.
• 24:39
  And I hang out with these James Bond sorts and all of this.
• 24:43
  And then she thinks the doctor's dead, doesn't she?
• 24:45
  When they does a course correction and she's in tears
• 24:47
  and the masters laughing his head off about it.
• 24:50
  And it's also fun to watch. Thank you, Miss Grant.
• 24:54
  We'll let you know. He goes hold on in there you 2,
• 25:00
  and then picks up The Time Machine.
• 25:04
  Oh, it's wonderful. Maybe.
• 25:07
  Maybe. The humor is the key.
• 25:09
  I don't think this is very funny.
• 25:12
  You think it's trying to be? It's trying.
• 25:17
  Yeah. Do you think Letts and Sloman
• 25:20
  are actually aiming for this to be a comedy in this particular
• 25:25
  scene? I think it's it's certainly in
• 25:27
  the case of this episode, then they missed the mark.
• 25:30
  Yeah. But I think until now, One to
• 25:32
  Three had a very gentle sort of humour running through it, but
• 25:36
  it was really appealing. Now I think this feels like it's
• 25:42
  supposed to be the cliffhanger Kronos saw descending on the
• 25:46
  Doctor. It wasn't going to cut it there.
• 25:50
  But then they keep keep delaying just a little bit longer because
• 25:54
  again, they are at this point literally, you know, in
• 25:58
  production running on the spot. We jumped about it throughout
• 26:03
  the story, but this is a little we have to run on the spot to
• 26:07
  get, you know, 25 minutes out. Yeah, yeah, no, you're spot on,
• 26:11
  Jack. This that was where this episode
• 26:13
  was meant to finish, but it was massively under running so they
• 26:16
  had to push it out a bit further.
• 26:18
  Oh I prefer the cliffhanger though.
• 26:20
  So over the top time rubber. I would say this story has been
• 26:26
  suffering from under running episodes quite a bit because I
• 26:29
  think episode 2 has quite a big portion of episode 1 at the
• 26:34
  beginning of it. So we have sort of been, you
• 26:37
  know, for what is one of the most consistent production
• 26:41
  periods of the shark's history is a little bit as we get to the
• 26:46
  end of the year, a little bit of discipline slipping, I'm not
• 26:50
  sure, but just a little bit, you know.
• 26:52
  Here's a question. And given what you're saying
• 26:54
  about, you know, they do shooting these in blocks of two
• 26:56
  episodes, so they can only really do the sets for two
• 26:59
  episodes. If the production was working in
• 27:02
  a different way, would we have got to Atlantis in this episode
• 27:07
  and done the whole second-half of the story there?
• 27:12
  I mean, production was working a different way.
• 27:14
  This might be a four parter or, you know, obviously Robert
• 27:20
  Sloman was supposed to write the dialects in London quite
• 27:23
  famously, but the production decided they didn't want the
• 27:27
  dialects at the end, they wanted the dialects at the top of the
• 27:30
  season. So in a different production
• 27:32
  block, in a different sort of era of the show's history, the
• 27:37
  time monster might not exist, and we might be watching Robert
• 27:41
  Sloman's The Dialects in London right now, you know?
• 27:45
  Whilst it does feel like we've sort of switched the channel to
• 27:48
  to, I don't know, BBC Four for episodes five and six, it is
• 27:53
  actually a nice change of pace, isn't it?
• 27:55
  It's quite like, oh OK, and we're actually going to do
• 27:59
  something now. The plot is actually going to
• 28:01
  start moving. And actually I think there is
• 28:02
  some visual interest to it even though we are clearly doing that
• 28:06
  outside, inside thing quite a lot because we spent all of our
• 28:10
  location budget already Arsenal around with Roundheads.
• 28:16
  Cut it there. I'll cut it there.