Latest / The Jon and Marc Podcast / Just Handle It: Stop Waiting, Start Executing with Harry Nalbandyan

Transcript

Just Handle It: Stop Waiting, Start Executing with Harry Nalbandyan · The Jon and Marc Podcast

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For lawyers or think, hey, I don't need to start a podcast.
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Why am I doing this? I don't need to be an
0:04
influencer, I'm a lawyer. What would you say to those kind
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of statements? It's a really fantastic little
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circle of knowledge transfer that happens when people are
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willing and able to come and share these kind of moments.
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I see these people that are super successful.
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The universe circles around them because what they've done is how
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do I make everyone around me rich?
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When you're able to set up that tribe and lift those people up,
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it will do anything for you. Not just for you specifically,
0:25
but for the team, for the company.
0:27
And that's what makes law firms unstoppable when they can create
0:30
a team like that. Amazing how you goosebumps.
0:49
Welcome to the John and Mark podcast.
0:51
We are live in Los Angeles with my good friend Harry Melbandian,
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partner at Levanel Boundeon and the host of Harry Handles It, a
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new up and coming podcast. We're actually in your office
1:03
today resetting up your studio may giving you some upgrades.
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Harry, thanks for being here. Very excited.
1:11
Looking forward to our conversation today.
1:13
Glad to be here and glad to be with you Mark.
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I love your show. I'm a big fan.
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You guys do some great quality content and I'm here to help in
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any way I can. Awesome.
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Once again, thanks for for being here.
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I know we can talk about all the legal stuff you do.
1:26
You know, you're in the courtroom, you won big verdicts
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and you had a 12 million, $12 million. 23 1/2. 23 1/2
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counting. I was like, but I want to talk
1:35
to you about your podcast. So Harry handles it.
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This is a pretty grassroots thing that you wanted to do.
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You had the vision, you wanted to do it.
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What kind of inspired you to start it?
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The biggest inspiration for me in in trying to start Harry
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Handles podcast was the the fact that in all of our cases and in
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growing the business, it was all grassroots, right?
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It was us trying to figure out every step of the way what to
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do, how to do it. And in searching for some sort
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of a media to try to figure out help podcasts.
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There's a ton of podcasts out there for everything, but I felt
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like there was a lapse in the area of leadership in the area
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of business management specific to law firm growth.
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And so I wanted to kind of fill that void in.
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It's a topic that I love talking about.
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It's a topic that I love discussing with other people.
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And the continuous growth and change is kind of what our core
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values are all about South, that's what really started.
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Love that and it thought leadership.
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And I know being a lawyer speaking usually isn't,
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especially for a trial lawyer. Speaking in public usually isn't
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a a fear. It's a one of the skill sets
2:39
that you have that you do as part of your job.
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But when you got started, what was like the first step?
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Did you just yell at search who's over here and say, Hey, we
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just have a studio? Or did you start researching?
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What was like the first step to like getting it up and running?
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So for me and sort of any of the projects that I do, when I have
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an idea, I I just execute yeah, no matter how, no matter how bad
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it may be or or. We're on this channel, no.
3:03
Matter how shitty the execution may be, I will execute.
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And so initially it started off with just bringing on, just
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getting the setup started and how that happened was, hey, I
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need equipment to start a podcast, can you get it?
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And so the equipment came, we set it up and we just started
3:18
scheduling guests. We saw the setup.
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For those who who want to start your own podcast, there's three
3:24
essential pieces of kit you need.
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You need a camera, you need a microphone and then slept on.
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You need lights. And you had all three?
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Yes, not in all working order. Aligned as they should, correct?
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There was a lot of room for improvement.
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Doing this show myself, I've learned a lot of the skills of
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the trade, and it is harder than it looks.
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I have a great team around us that helps produce all of our
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podcasts. Alec, Bog, Zane, Emily, Matthew,
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Carl. We have a whole team behind the
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scenes to help do it, to get the kind of the look and the
3:55
quality. But so going into the podcast
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doing thought leadership, how do you prep for these?
4:04
Good question. I think we talked about this
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kind of off air, but my I guess the thing that I rely on the
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most is just my innate ability to have a conversation with
4:14
random people and as a trial lawyer.
4:16
You can both give her the best of them.
4:19
As a trial lawyer, my job is to talk to people who are sort of
4:24
in a hostage situation, in a courtroom where they're under
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subpoena as jurors to try to help my client, right?
4:29
And so getting that conversation going is a skill that is never
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ending field of improvement. And so with that and guests
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coming on, do a little bit of research about the guests, make
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sure I get their names right. And that's kind of the biggest
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hurdle sometimes, especially my name.
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And then just have a flowy, curious conversation.
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That's really all I'm focused on about.
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Most people love telling their own stories.
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And once they tell their stories it it gives us avenues of
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different topics to talk about. So being a trial lawyer, you
5:01
focus in personal injury, do employment law, We use some
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other areas of law as well at the firm, but for lawyers or
5:08
think, hey, I don't need to start a podcast.
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Why am I doing this? Like I don't need to be an
5:12
influencer, I'm a lawyer. What would you say to those kind
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of statements? So you might be right.
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That's one thing I'll say. But the second thing I'll say is
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if you do want to do this, this is a fantastic way to practice.
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So getting in touch with people, talking to them in person,
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having this kind of conversation recorded so you can see yourself
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too, it all helps you down in in the long range game of just
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being a better lawyer, being a better advocate for your client.
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If you're not a trial lawyer, that's fine too.
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Having these kind of conversations opens up different
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networking opportunities too. I get to speak to people I would
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have never ever spoken to before on the other side of the
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country. Different time zones, different
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leaders in different parts of ancillary businesses that help
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support our core mission. That's trial lawyers, so it's
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really fun in that way, too. That's a a really good point
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because as lawyers, you are dealing with clients non-stop,
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not in the courtroom, but like day-to-day, you're just dealing
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with your team, but you are talking with people and
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communicating all day. And all you're doing running
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these podcasts is just practicing the craft of
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communication, which is, you know, practicing law is your is
6:15
your job. But how often are you speaking
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to your clients for doing voyeur work per SE?
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This helps hone that crap, right?
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It helps hone the public speaking.
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It helps hone the ability to get your thoughts in order and
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develop some sort of a statement with somebody.
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And there's different modes of communication, right?
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How I communicate to a client depends on the issue that I'm
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trying to approach with them. How I communicate the different
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guests on podcasts is different than I would do in that setting.
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So it's important if you're going to do this kind of work,
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to realize what mode of communication somebody is going
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to need to receive the message. So all of that helps.
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That's a really good point. Once you started doing this, did
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you notice that there's some holes in your communication game
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that you needed to up while running the podcast?
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Because doing these these episodes, you think, you know,
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it's easy just to talk to people, but like, sometimes like
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it's you, you get done with an episode, you're like, I really
7:17
was struggling with that piece. Or was there any part of your
7:19
game that you thought like I need to step up as you've done
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more and more episodes? Yeah, of course.
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I mean, you, you go back and watch the recordings, you kind
7:25
of watch how you speak, you watch how you formulate the
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thoughts. And so my biggest hurdle was
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sometimes the conversation, just the different guests that are
7:35
scheduled, they're just kind of hard to hold a conversation with
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different kinds of people. Sometimes it doesn't click
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correct. And then that's those are the
7:43
shortest episodes for for obvious reasons.
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But for me, that was the biggest hurdles.
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How do I overcome maybe the guest who doesn't want to speak
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too much or how do I interject my own story and whatever the
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guest is telling me to keep listeners engaged or give them
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something more meaningful to think about or listen to.
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Because ultimately, at the end of the day, we want the users to
8:05
get in some value of all this effort that we're doing.
8:08
I always try to let the give space for the guests to like
8:12
tell the information they want, but also try to guide them in
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the area that I think the audience wants to hear.
8:19
And then tried to do my best to make the episodes like a tennis
8:22
match. You should be hitting it back
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and forth. First one person like no one
8:26
wants to hear me speak for a whole episode.
8:29
John and I do very specific content, which is the two of us
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talking and monologuing. If you want to see more of those
8:34
episodes that we have more coming down the pipe, but the
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guests are listening in for us to talk to you and you speak
8:40
and, and learn from you those like golden Nuggets.
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And like you said, sometimes you don't click with the guests, But
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it, it, it is something we try to do to make sure that the
8:49
guests feel comfortable and have that opportunity in the platform
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to, to share what they really are passionate about and not
8:54
just make force them to share something that I want them to
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share. Sometimes they see the
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conversations really like light up when you get them on the
9:01
topic that they really care about.
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Of course. And that's natural, right?
9:05
People, when they love a certain subject, they're going to talk
9:07
about it more. They're going to be able to be
9:09
more open about it, share some vulnerabilities in that arena,
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and so that helps lubricate the conversation.
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It's funny, so my dad works for me.
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That's cool, I do that. And after the first couple
9:20
episodes came out, he's like, hey, you're doing really good on
9:23
the podcast. Your Annunciation is good.
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You just have like no likes or arms.
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I'm really proud of you. I was like, I have so many.
9:28
It's embarrassing. But they edit them all out.
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He was like, oh, I take it back. Have a good job on the edit.
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Editing is very important. You don't want to see the raw
9:38
episodes. The arms, the lights, the space
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fillers. It's something as a trial lawyer
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I've worked on and struggled with from the beginning.
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The jury picks up on that right away, 100.
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Percent and so the way you communicate also communicates
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non verbal cues to the listeners.
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So if you're feeling the air with a bunch of nonsense, people
9:59
realize that if you fill the air with a bunch of information that
10:02
people don't need, people get the sense of that.
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And so the idea is, formulate your thought before we speak and
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try to keep the listeners engaged.
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I remember when we started this. It's actually something I've
10:14
struggled with my entire life is when someone's speaking, I have
10:18
a question that'll pop my head and I have to get it out
10:21
immediately. And like giving that person the
10:24
ability to finish and actually listen to them finish and not
10:27
just waiting for them to finish so I could ask my question is a
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big skill that I've had to learn.
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And can sometimes I'll actually pay attention to make sure I'm
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catching everything they're saying and then they will end
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and I'm like, I forgot what I was going to ask.
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Or you forgot what they told. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Or that they're saying. This is harder than it looks.
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Yeah. And so I, I, I hate to keep kind
10:49
of tying this back into the jury trial scenario, but it's true
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because when I'm speaking to jurors, a room of 60 people I've
10:54
never met before and I have to figure out if they can be the
10:57
right person to judge my client's case.
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You can't formulate a thought while somebody's speaking.
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You just have to hear what they're saying because a lot of
11:07
times when people are speaking. That was a really good point
11:09
just made. Dude, when people speak, they
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say a lot more with their body, with their tone of voice, with
11:17
their face, with their mannerisms than they do with
11:20
their words. Time and time again that's been
11:23
proven true. So making yourself present in
11:27
the moment has been a huge help for me.
11:31
Kind of clearing out that question that I thought I had
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why they're speaking also helps. It is a good point to the point
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that you are making that active listening is a skill that
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requires continuous practice, right?
11:43
For lawyers that want to get into the content creation space,
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where do you think they should start?
11:49
You you start a podcast that might not be for everyone?
11:51
Yes. Where do you think someone
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should start if you're giving me an advice to anyone?
11:54
First base level, Instagram, LinkedIn, post some content up
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there and everyone's content strategy will be different.
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Your content strategy should be tailored to your own
12:04
personality. I feel like this is a medium
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that I like. I love talking to people, I love
12:08
speaking to people. I've never, I don't know who
12:10
otherwise I would have never talked to anyway, but for having
12:13
the platform. And so for me, this is exciting
12:16
to be able to do this and for some people maybe intimidating.
12:19
There's distribution part of it, there's the editing part of it,
12:22
there's the entire production line of it that's intimidating.
12:26
But simple cap and sure and shoot topic that you love.
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Just start there and listen. No matter what you do, no one's
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going to watch anything you do in the beginning.
12:35
Correct, That is correct. Fundamentals, one-on-one content
12:38
creation. No one's going to watch your
12:41
shit. And then eventually, through the
12:42
years, it'll gain traction. One piece will build on the
12:45
other. Your audience will grow, people
12:47
will start engaging more, and maybe we'll be Elon Musk.
12:53
I I heard some really interesting advice around
12:54
content creation. To your point, don't get nervous
12:56
about posting because no one's watching just like you're give
12:58
me your mom or your friends, like, OK, who cares if they
13:01
judge you for the video put out like they're not good friends
13:04
and no one's going to watch for a while.
13:06
And then people are only going to start watching once you get
13:09
better. And the more content you put
13:10
out, the better you'll get. And that's when the views will
13:12
happen. So you'll have the most views
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when you have your best content. So it's like, just put the reps
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in, like you said, just get started.
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You're going to suck no matter what.
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Like if you're comparing yourself to Joe Rogan or people
13:22
that have the best in the world, like that's not what you you
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should be doing. Just focusing on getting started
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And like every video, like how do I make that video 1% better
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than the last one I did? Whether it's, you know,
13:33
scripting it better, producing it better, just getting better
13:37
content or subjects to talk about.
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And then by the time you finally have an audience, the product
13:41
will be good. So you're not nervous about
13:43
putting it out because you know you're putting out your best
13:45
contact for people will actually be watching.
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That point resonates so hard. And here's the public service
13:50
announcement. Comparison is what's the saying?
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Comparison is the thief of joy. I think so something like.
13:56
That so don't compare yourself to the black belt of the game.
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The best in the game. People have been doing this as a
14:03
career in the game. That's a losing battle.
14:06
Compare your own content to your own content, day over day, week
14:10
over week, month of month, and improve on that and eventually
14:13
you'll get better and you'll you'll you'll hit the next
14:16
echelon and you'll if you consistently keep going, I feel
14:20
like there's no limit. Yeah, absolutely.
14:22
I always try to compare myself like was it better than I was
14:24
yesterday? And that's what I'm comparing
14:26
myself to. I actually little bit
14:30
controversial as a official content creator and digital
14:35
marketer. I deleted all my social media
14:37
apps at the beginning of the year so I no longer use them
14:40
because I would just found myself comparing myself to
14:43
others. I do use them for work to
14:45
research other people's stuff, but I don't use them personally
14:48
to like scroll and look in things anymore because I just
14:51
found myself comparing myself to people, all my friends doing
14:54
things or other things and I didn't find much joy in it.
14:57
But I still use it for work and I'm like OK what's the look I
15:00
want for these videos? What kind of videos are
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trending? I use it as a research tool but
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I don't use it for entertainment or or social media anymore.
15:06
Yeah. And, you know, the social media
15:08
trap is, is big, and everyone falls into that some level or
15:12
another, that trap, Yeah. One of the things I want to talk
15:15
about too. So like getting started
15:16
concentration right. I want to talk about like
15:18
different formats if you're a lawyer, right?
15:20
No, I do my podcast with guests and with John.
15:23
So I have a safety blanket of John when we usually he's not
15:27
here right now. We miss you, John back in
15:28
Orlando couldn't make it, but it's it's half the risk.
15:31
I have someone else. I'm having an off day who who
15:33
can carry the conversation to go somewhere.
15:35
Don't feel comfortable. But you you know, you have
15:37
guests. You run it yourself, but you can
15:39
record content by yourself. You said just get a camera, talk
15:43
into it, talk about things you like and there's many different
15:46
mediums or formats that you can produce to find what is your
15:51
niche and then what actually brings you joy and that you
15:52
enjoy doing. To that point, the the risk is
15:56
so low in that scenario, yeah, it's just you and the camera.
15:59
It sucks. Delete it.
16:01
Don't, don't do that. Just keep it and then get
16:03
better. Use that as a learning tool, but
16:06
just start somewhere. And that's my biggest advice is
16:09
people love ideas. People can idealize, make ideas,
16:14
plan, Daydream all day, but it takes the next level of actually
16:18
executing on those ideas where I feel like a lot of people fall
16:21
off. Yep, absolutely.
16:22
I remember I first started doing these.
16:24
I would. I didn't realize that you just
16:27
keep the camera rolling. I would like create content.
16:30
I like hit record and I'd say something in a mess of a word
16:33
and I'm like oh crap. And I'd stop it and I'd delete
16:35
it and start again and like doing that just every time I
16:38
have like a negative connotation in my brain, I'd get more
16:40
pressure on and they're like dude, you can just just keep it
16:43
rolling. I'm like oh so I just say it
16:45
wrong then I stop. Just say it again until you get
16:47
the line right and move along. The poor editors have to listen
16:50
to me like 6 times say something to deliver a line but like take
16:53
the pressure off. Storage is pretty much unlimited
16:57
and like free nowadays. Just take a bunch of takes, let
17:01
the editor do the work, and it'll come out fine.
17:03
So here's a funny story. When I first started the
17:05
podcast, first to second episode, we was recording with
17:08
James the Iron Cowboy. Yeah, that was it, Duke.
17:11
Huge gas right at the beginning. I was like, what the what the
17:14
heck is going on? I don't even think you have the
17:16
sign yet. No, no.
17:17
No, I did not have the sign. It was the first couple
17:19
episodes. I think I was still filming in
17:21
my office. We didn't even have our
17:22
dedicated, you know, podcast in our office space.
17:25
But that being said, we were recording that episode.
17:28
I had a phenomenal conversation, conversation with him, but guess
17:31
what happened at the end? I didn't hit record and so we
17:35
were speaking for an hour and nothing got recorded and so.
17:40
That that's that is that is a amateur mistake that we have all
17:43
made at least once in our lives. So I bring that story up.
17:47
We have done this and I have professional videographers on
17:51
staff and we have done that before that.
17:53
That hurts. Yeah, and it was just me, right?
17:55
And so I didn't press the button.
17:57
I had nobody to blame but myself, but this kind of stuff
17:59
happens. And So what?
18:00
I reached out to him and I said, look, man, you know, you were my
18:03
first or second guest. I didn't hit record.
18:07
Can I just steal another hour at a time?
18:09
And he was more than happy to do that.
18:11
What a nice guy, yeah. Yeah, he really is the gym.
18:13
I mean, to be able to do 60 plus ultra marathons in in like 25
18:17
days. I'm exaggerating a little bit,
18:19
being hyperbolic, but you know, takes that kind of character.
18:23
I bet you don't make that mistake anymore, do you?
18:25
No, no, that's that's like you burn your hand on the stove one
18:28
time, that's when you learn. So Harry handles it the podcast.
18:34
Who are some of your like wish list guests that you want to get
18:38
on? Good question.
18:39
The Mount Rushmore, The Mount Rushmore, yeah, I'd love to have
18:42
the biggest thought leaders that they're out there now doing this
18:46
kind of work. Just have conversation with them
18:48
and, and I'm curious about their story about their progress.
18:52
And the more I get to talk to the people at the highest
18:54
levels, I think the bar benefit is for me.
19:00
Elon Musk, Patrick. David Bet, Joe Rogan, Patrick.
19:03
David's on my list. That'd be a sick 1.
19:05
Yeah, I mean just a standard A listers of of this arena because
19:09
they talked to so many different people at the highest levels.
19:12
I mean they absorbed that information too.
19:13
And so it's a really fantastic little circle of knowledge
19:17
transfer that happens when people are willing and able to
19:20
come and share these kind of moments with people like me.
19:23
Those would be incredible. Yeah.
19:25
Yeah, Patrick, that David said. Like I'm a big fan of his.
19:27
He's blown up recently. Yeah.
19:29
And most recently, I just saw the episode of John Morgan on
19:32
with him. Yeah.
19:33
Oh, actually, that's really great.
19:34
Have you you watched? It I did, yeah.
19:36
John Morgan's having this like arc again where he's back in
19:39
like pop culture out of nowhere. Like he says, there's slots and
19:42
there's lions. Yeah, and it doesn't change.
19:44
And you keep being a lion no matter how old you are, and you
19:47
keep going no matter what. That's the message I see from
19:50
him. He's still pushing, he's got
19:52
plenty money. Usually once you get that bag,
19:54
you take your foot off the gas a little bit.
19:55
Yes, but there's different, I realized there's different types
19:59
of people, right. So there's people who just make
20:01
the bag and they're that's done, that's it, their purpose is
20:04
over. And then there's people who no
20:06
matter how many bags they get, they still need that drive,
20:11
something competitive, something to keep them going and.
20:15
No matter how many bags you have, I think you need that
20:17
chase. It's interesting, you know, I'm
20:19
in the, the legal marketing space for a while now and I deal
20:22
with a ton of lawyers all across the nation and either I do
20:25
business with or just in my network and watching the
20:28
different personalities and how people interact.
20:31
You know, there, there are definitely some people who are,
20:33
are chasing to make as much money for themselves as
20:35
possible. And then I, I see these people
20:37
that are super successful and you know, some are just regular
20:40
killers and you're like, you get it.
20:41
Like you get it. And I see some people, whether
20:43
I'm like, oh, the universe circles around them because what
20:46
they've done is how do I make everyone around me rich?
20:49
How do I take care of everyone around me?
20:51
And the moment I do that, I make way more money.
20:54
And I've like, I, I've been noticing this.
20:57
You know, we go to conferences, you see some major players that
20:59
are selfish and you see some that are not selfish.
21:01
They're trying to make everyone know.
21:03
Was it? A rising tide lifts all boats.
21:05
Yeah. And it's like the people that
21:06
focus on that are becoming more successful.
21:09
It's like you're in LA, super competitive market, but you're
21:12
not like trying to put anyone down.
21:14
Everyone's trying to service the clients the best way possible.
21:17
You want everyone to be successful, but put your best
21:19
foot forward and. 100% and I couldn't agree with that
21:22
sentiment a lot more. There's look, but I, I've been
21:24
working since I was 1415 years old.
21:25
Different places in industries, there's different leaders out
21:28
there, which is why I love the podcast and that's why I
21:32
started. It is because leadership is an
21:35
evolutionary subject and it's different for every single
21:38
person in the different kinds of contexts and roles in your
21:42
organization, whether it's a law firm, a nonprofit you're helping
21:44
with, or whatever you have on the side.
21:47
And so that subject of leadership is so important
21:50
because those leaders who lift everybody else around them, who
21:53
help their team members accomplish their life goals, not
21:56
just business KPIs or whatever life goals.
21:58
I want my MBA. How can I help you get it?
22:01
What can I do to help facilitate that?
22:04
So you feel like you're growing in your own life.
22:06
And then when you're able to set up that tribe and lift those
22:10
people up, they will do anything for you, Not just for you
22:13
specifically, but for the team, for the company.
22:16
And that's what makes law firms unstoppable when they can create
22:19
a team like that. Speaking from us personally,
22:22
I've over the last two years, I think I've tried 10 cases.
22:26
And to be able to do that without my team would be
22:30
impossible. Like I'm gone for a month at a
22:31
time. I've been gone 1/4 this year.
22:34
Modesto, San Francisco, You just.
22:36
Got a trial last week, right? Yeah, yeah.
22:37
And so I did have to reschedule this last minute.
22:40
I'm here. Sorry, I typically don't flake.
22:44
If I do flake, there's a really. I knew it was bad when Serge
22:47
called me and he started like bro, I'm so sorry.
22:52
It wasn't, you know that wasn't supposed to happen, but it did.
22:56
To your point, the leaders who helped their teams succeed in
22:59
addition to themselves, not the Super selfish leaders.
23:04
It just benefits society as a whole more my opinion.
23:06
Everyone just does better. Let's talk about, like, moving
23:08
into like business, like leadership.
23:10
You guys are on quite a tear. You're growing.
23:13
You know, we visit our office, you have the 11 nail Bondian
23:15
office is, what, 4 floors? Yeah.
23:17
Four floors. 4 floors, Yeah. How many people are in that
23:20
office right now? In that office, tough to tell.
23:23
So all in, we're 115 employees. We have an office in our
23:27
headquarters in Studio City. We have an office in Bakersfield
23:30
about an hour and a half N from here.
23:31
And then we're working on a couple different office spaces
23:33
in different cities kind of locally in Socal for 2026.
23:37
So we're kind of spread out, but it's 115 person organization.
23:40
We have a hybrid schedule, people coming in and out.
23:43
You guys have but more than doubled in the past.
23:45
So when I started. I met you met two years ago and
23:49
you're probably half the size. Yeah.
23:51
So when when we met, I think we had just gone live with Little
23:55
Five. Yes, recently and I think at
23:57
that point we were maybe 30 or 40 people kind of all in company
24:00
wide. And I think I had maybe, I don't
24:03
know, 100 cases. Yeah, that was the building
24:06
phase and the building phase never. 100 cases.
24:08
It felt like a lot back then. Yeah, it really did.
24:11
And it's funny how it's all relevant, but over the years,
24:14
it's just grown, it's scaled. Our marketing team has
24:18
developed, our case acquisition has increased, our branding has
24:23
increased. And so all that being said, the
24:26
cases increase, team increases and everything else sort of
24:30
falls falls in place. So what are the biggest like
24:33
leadership changes or lessons you've had to learn, you know,
24:36
as you go? I I remember specifically with
24:39
my team like big changes I had to make when we hit went past 15
24:42
employees, which doesn't seem like a lot, but like 15 is like
24:46
I could have everyone in the room and like.
24:47
Yeah, you do this. You do that.
24:48
Yeah, 50 And then it was like 50 employees for me.
24:51
It was like a big jump. Like where were some big lessons
24:53
or like you had to change in your leadership style?
24:56
As you've grown, you know you're just getting bigger.
24:58
Yeah, that's interesting. And I've been, this is now year
25:03
started in 19, so 6 is coming up and it's been different,
25:06
different phases and different levels.
25:08
Initially it was just where lawyer had work on all my cases,
25:13
I had one assistant. It was kind of that home grown,
25:16
just small community and that that grew into a team of over 30
25:20
people over the last five years. And my role, where are my hands?
25:27
What, what jars my hands are in changes.
25:29
And the way I've communicated with my team also changed.
25:33
So there was one really eye opening moment where my right
25:36
hand, my my department director currently, we started together
25:40
in 2019. She came over, she was the
25:43
assistant. She left.
25:46
Yeah, she left. And so when she left, she left
25:49
me a note and, and I thought everything was fine, but I
25:52
realized, no, I was the problem. Yeah.
25:54
So. When I get that's a tough pill
25:57
to swallow. Yeah, but it's one you you must
26:00
swallow if that is you and then learn to change.
26:04
So when that happened, the the thoughts and the the the roller
26:09
coaster starts to spin. You start finding different
26:11
excuses. But ultimately it's people don't
26:14
leave jobs, they leave bad leaders, right.
26:17
So she left, but she came back. Oh, nice.
26:20
So with the understanding of I'm a different leader now, I heard
26:25
what you had to say, I realized where my weaknesses were and
26:31
let's improve. And I think I'm speaking well
26:33
for her. I think nobody could be any
26:35
happier. That's a a great turn around.
26:37
Yeah, Yeah. Usually people don't change.
26:39
Yes. And I guess that's the
26:43
competitive advantage. You will have a competitive
26:45
advantage if you can set your ego aside during those times and
26:50
kind of do a little self reflection.
26:53
And for me, jujitsu has helped a lot with yeah, yeah, when
26:55
somebody'd knees riding your face and you just want to quit
26:59
and you just want to go home and, you know, take a warm
27:01
shower. But you got to take that next
27:02
step and move forward. It helps you realize where your
27:04
weaknesses are and where you can develop, and that there's always
27:07
room for improvement. Yep, in jiu jitsu too, it's like
27:11
sometimes you don't need to be going full bore, sometimes bad
27:13
things are happening. Just relax.
27:15
Yeah, let's sit and just take equation.
27:17
Let roll with it a little bit. And sometimes you sometimes you
27:20
wipe out and you surf and you just got to keep rolling until
27:25
you know the waves are calm and you lift your head up and move
27:29
on to the next show. I have this amazing woman named
27:31
Jennifer Cox. It's like one of the execs on my
27:33
team, She's been with us from the beginning.
27:36
Some of our piece of success is that we had very.
27:39
I have a lot of candid conversations with her where
27:43
John and I lack certain personal skills from a leadership
27:46
perspective, depending on the personalities, right.
27:49
But she has all the ones we don't.
27:51
Yeah. So which is great.
27:53
And when we're doing something that people don't like or we
27:57
have behaviors that need correcting, the team will go to
27:59
her and she's like, hey, we have some requests.
28:01
Nice, good you found your filter.
28:05
Yeah, and then she comes to us. She's like, you know what, you
28:07
do this, you just not do it this way.
28:08
We're like didn't realize that bothered people.
28:10
Thank you for telling us. Like we'll make a change.
28:12
Other ones like we'll do our best or just have someone else
28:14
do that so we don't have to be involved.
28:16
But it's like don't get offended by it.
28:18
Like have someone give you honest feedback and then change
28:20
or don't and then deal with the consequences.
28:23
But. Like, it's the same thing I tell
28:24
my team, right? If I'm going to give you
28:26
coaching, if I'm going to give you guidance on how to be a
28:29
better lawyer, how to be a better advocate, how to be a
28:31
better person. And I can't take it to what kind
28:36
of message, you know? So that's my philosophy at
28:39
least. Yeah.
28:41
You guys practice multiple areas of law today.
28:44
How do you structure the organization to handle that
28:47
differently? Because you know, I, I do with a
28:49
lot of firms that do a couple different things, but most of
28:51
them usually do, you know, personal injury and maybe they
28:54
do some math storage, but mostly all personal injury a lot where
28:56
they all do all employment or, or all, something all criminal
28:59
defense or something like that. How do you manage the firm
29:02
dealing with multiple practice here as you do it because
29:04
there's very unique different like operational and functional
29:07
day-to-day challenges that each one has?
29:09
Yes, big time. And one of our unique value
29:12
propositions is that we we are specialists in employment law,
29:16
workers compensation and personal injury.
29:18
And the benefit that we have is the principles involved in the
29:21
firm are all different leaders of those practice groups.
29:24
So there's a practice group level and then there's the firm
29:26
management level that's a different practice group
29:29
consider. So the practice group level
29:32
management with our CRM, with our processes, with our systems,
29:36
all of that works pretty well. And then we have the central
29:38
admin team that kind of helps with the all the the employment
29:41
issues, the benefits, time off this that.
29:45
So it's all pretty synchronized. But what really helps is just
29:47
having the specialized leadership in all of those
29:49
different roles so that I don't have to worry about those cases
29:53
and they don't have to worry about those other cases.
29:55
And it's just accountability for our specific teams to us.
29:59
So that really helps. Each leader of the firm kind of
30:01
runs their own business unit because that's what they
30:02
specialize in. Basically, yeah.
30:04
And it's kind of all hands off. Nobody really manages each
30:07
other's cases because what, what value am I going to add in like
30:12
Workers Compass? I'm sure there's something that
30:14
I can change. But Rusty does a great job.
30:16
You know he'll run his. Time poking over the fence, but
30:18
I would do that a little differently.
30:20
Doesn't matter. There's a thousand ways to skin
30:22
the cat. At the end of the day, is there
30:24
food to eat? Yeah, that's all that really
30:26
matters. I want to talk to you about
30:28
growth, specifically on like hiring, yes, and like
30:31
maintaining your culture, you know, hire.
30:33
I've hired 62 people in the past four years.
30:38
I interviewed all of the 1st 50 myself, where I did all the
30:43
first round interviews and all the final the 1st 50 myself.
30:46
And now I've given up control. But growth, how do you handle
30:51
recruiting, hiring, finding the right talent?
30:53
Because it's like as anyone's growing, like I don't care how
30:55
good you are, you have to have the right people in place.
30:57
You can't even if you have stars as leaders, they can't do
31:00
everything. Once you get to a certain point,
31:01
you burn them out if they're trying to hold on to all the
31:04
everything that's happening one time.
31:06
In my opinion, the people management is the hardest part
31:07
of scaling. Yeah.
31:08
Anybody can get $10 billion. I'm being.
31:12
Yeah, obtuse. Yeah.
31:14
But anybody can get a lot of money.
31:15
Anybody can put that money into advertising.
31:17
Anybody can make the phone ring. Yeah, that's how you deal with
31:19
the consequences of actually doing the work afterwards.
31:23
That really matters. And so for me personally, I
31:25
mean, in the beginning, of course, do everything yourself,
31:27
but as I started to build out the management team, the
31:30
leadership team, now we have a head of people, director of
31:33
people that kind of does all that for us, which is really,
31:36
really helpful. One unique area of scaling a law
31:39
firm that I don't think it's much attention is, is lawyers.
31:42
It's tough. Recruiting lawyers is different
31:44
than recruiting team level support, whatever it is.
31:48
I like to analogize it as like the best lawyers want to work
31:51
for the best teams. And so I'm not a big sports guy
31:53
either. If the Lakers are good, that's
31:55
all I know. But if somebody wants to play
31:59
basketball for the Lakers, you have to recruit them to play for
32:02
the rakers, right? Lakers have to go out and find
32:04
the good, the best people that are up and coming, whatever it
32:06
is. So personally, me, I'm still
32:09
involved in the recruitment for my lawyer team because I like to
32:12
see that people I do bring on board are going to be a list
32:15
pensioners. I need the people to try the
32:18
cases. I need the people to be
32:20
coachable. I need them to to mend well with
32:23
our team and to provide the best service for our clients because
32:26
ultimately that's the measuring stick for any service
32:30
organization. I haven't thought about that.
32:32
Then my mind's been races you've brought up because I always
32:34
think about growing the firm's scaling.
32:36
Actually, I always think about the support staff more than the
32:38
actual lawyers because the lawyer position is very unique
32:41
because you want the best possible person you can get.
32:44
So your firm has the best chance of waiting for your clients,
32:46
right? Those people aren't cheap.
32:49
And there those people are. Also, if they're really good,
32:52
they might go start their own firm.
32:54
They're like, hey, this hairy guy is just riding my coattails
32:58
and win them all this money. I should go do this myself.
33:00
Or if they're really good, every other law firm in the area is
33:03
chirping in the ear like, hey, look, this is the place you
33:07
should be. So not only do you have to like
33:08
recruit, develop talent, get them from the right price, you
33:11
got to keep them happy. And then you got to help them
33:13
see that they'll be more successful being part of your
33:15
team than by doing it by themselves, which if they want
33:17
to do that by themselves, go ahead.
33:19
But it it's a very unique challenging the market for for
33:22
that particular skill set cause also cause the results are very
33:24
public. Yes.
33:26
Like most most people, like in the business world, if you are
33:29
an employee of a company, most people are not seeing your
33:32
results on display at all times. Whereas if you have a very large
33:36
settlement or verdict, it gets advertised and it's like a
33:40
billboard for everyone to see you're doing a good job.
33:42
Yeah, and that is a good point. And we're talking about John
33:46
Morgan in this podcast, and he mentioned the grinders, the
33:49
minders and the finders, those different categories of lawyers
33:53
and every firm needs all them. And the challenge from a firm
33:56
owner perspective or business manager perspective is how do
33:59
you develop a culture to help people succeed and grow, to give
34:04
them the opportunity to not look over their shoulder and look, at
34:07
the end of the day, there's going to be some people who just
34:09
want to be the captain of their own ship.
34:11
That's fine. But what I take pride in at my
34:13
firm is to give everybody the opportunity to have unlimited
34:17
growth. You want to sit in my seat, it's
34:20
open for you. Show me you got it.
34:21
Yeah, I would love nothing more than a viewer place and do no
34:25
work. Yes.
34:27
And so that's a challenge that we have as, as from owners.
34:31
You have to be cognizant of that.
34:32
And then you have to craft a vision and execute on it to make
34:36
those opportunities happen. Because you can say a bunch of
34:38
stuff, right? You can, you can sell somebody
34:40
anything. Yeah, you can sell somebody a
34:42
dream. But if it's not real and it's
34:43
not tangible, they're just going to leave.
34:45
And so that's something that I've considered worked on.
34:49
And I hope that everybody at my firm sees that there is always
34:53
no always room for more. One of the things that I saw as
34:57
one of my most important roles as a company founder and someone
35:01
who's running a company was was recruiting because I think that
35:05
every single person is like essential to the success of the
35:08
company and a single bad person could ruin the whole company.
35:10
Yes. But my job as a especially when
35:13
we're small is I was a salesman. I am pitching people on a
35:16
vision. I remember hiring people when I
35:18
had no customers, I had no benefits, no office like, hey,
35:23
I'm selling you a vision. Trust me, we're going places.
35:27
I promise you, you'll make money one day and we think we might
35:31
have a four O 1K next year. I remember having to do that.
35:35
And then still as we grew, it was like selling people in the
35:37
vision of like, hey, you have no idea who we are.
35:40
This is why you should come work for me.
35:41
This is what I stand for. And these are the opportunities
35:43
I'll put in front of you. And then that was extremely
35:45
hard. And what was even harder was
35:47
after I got him on board was living up to all the promises
35:50
that I made as 100. If you don't, they will leave
35:53
immediately. Yes, and it's funny because I
35:56
had, I feel like all founders have that kind of similar story.
35:59
You have to sell somebody the dream.
36:01
And then if you don't execute on the dream and you don't, you
36:03
don't follow it through, they're gone.
36:06
And so I did that same exact thing.
36:08
So my assistant sold the soul of the dream.
36:10
We had nothing in the beginning. Please come, we'll make it.
36:14
But then they become, when you do a good job and you do give
36:17
them the opportunity, you do live up to those, the dreams
36:20
that you're selling. They become your biggest selling
36:24
points, the biggest advocates for your own team, because now,
36:27
and anybody has any sort of hesitation, go speak to them.
36:32
Talk to them about the dream that they'll sold to them and
36:35
how their lives are now 3-4 times better because of the
36:39
opportunities that were created here.
36:41
And so it's hard in the beginning.
36:42
And then if you don't execute on that and give people the dream,
36:46
yeah, they're going to leave. What we do, we have a policy for
36:49
our final interview, not for all hires for most hires in certain
36:52
roles where they'll go speak with some of the execs that have
36:54
been with system from the beginning.
36:55
We have a leadership team before that's been with us from the
36:57
beginning. They're the ones that we sold
36:59
and we had no benefit. So I love them to death.
37:02
I love you guys. You're right who you are, but on
37:05
on the final interview, it's, it's a culture fit thing.
37:07
But I tell the candidates I go, you have the opportunity to ask
37:10
them anything you want and I've guided them to give you 100%
37:14
transparent answers. And so they have, no, they're
37:17
not dissolutioned about where they're going to work.
37:19
You can ask about me, you can ask about John, you can ask
37:22
about the company culture, why people get fired, why people get
37:24
raises. How often do you work?
37:26
You work nights, you work and nothing is off the table.
37:29
Nice. And then like some people have
37:32
that interview and they say, this place isn't for me.
37:34
But our goal is to be as transparent as possible about
37:36
what environment you're going into.
37:38
And with those people saying this isn't for me, you just
37:41
saved yourself a lot of time and heartache because you don't, if
37:44
you don't want somebody to come in, that's not going to be a
37:46
good call benefit. They're just going to ruin it
37:48
for everybody else. How many times have you gone to
37:51
any sort of outing and there's that just that one person, the
37:53
nagger, the whatever, who's just ruining it for everybody.
37:58
You know, that happens across the board.
37:59
And if you find that happening in your firm, nip it in the bud.
38:02
I brag about my team. I have some of the most amazing
38:04
people that work for me, but we we set a pretty high standard
38:07
and we started the company, but I don't like uphold it at all
38:10
anymore. They do.
38:11
So if someone comes in and isn't pulling their weight, I hear
38:14
about it. They're like this person is not
38:16
not living up the standard that you set.
38:17
Like they need to get better. We've been trying to coach them,
38:19
but like, it's unacceptable. They're slowing us down.
38:21
I'm like. Isn't that awesome from my from
38:24
a leader perspective, I have to have that come to you, but wow,
38:27
this is this is actually working now you.
38:29
Know and that's like those when those moments happen, those are
38:31
the first times I like take my hands off the rain.
38:33
But I was like, I trust my leaders.
38:35
I have the right team in place. They know what the standard is.
38:37
They're going to set it. And if any issues come up, they
38:39
know that they can give us the feedback and we'll correct it
38:42
accordingly. Did you have a hard time with
38:45
letting go? Oh yeah, for sure.
38:47
I still, I still don't let go. I just do you know who Dan
38:49
Martel is? Maybe it sounds similar.
38:52
He has a book, I think it's called Buy Back Your time.
38:54
Yes, he's really popular on YouTube.
38:55
He he's one of my, you know, Mount Rushmore people right now.
38:58
But watching some of his content.
39:00
But right when we hit like 50 people, me and John were both
39:03
having a really hard time because we were we were kind of
39:05
burning out just because we were involved in everything,
39:08
everything. And then I was watching his
39:10
content. He's like, you should enjoy
39:13
work. So we like look at your
39:15
calendar, color code, all the things that bring you joy or
39:17
take your joy away, and then all the things that take your joy
39:20
away. Sometimes you just have to do
39:22
that as a business owner. Like it is, yeah, you just got
39:24
to do it. But he's like, just hire people
39:26
to do all those things that you don't want to do.
39:29
And I was like, ha. It's so simple, but genius,
39:34
yeah. I was like, oh, it's going to
39:35
cost more money to hire that person, but it's going to free
39:38
up time for me to focus on all the things I enjoy doing and
39:41
that's going to drive the business even more.
39:42
Yeah. And so you said something and I
39:45
want to chime in on that point. It's going to cost me more
39:49
money. I don't see adding people as as
39:52
a cost. It's an investment.
39:54
And so when somebody, when when a team member comes on our team,
39:59
I'm willing to do anything to make sure that they get better,
40:02
that they grow, because ultimately it's it's money, time
40:05
and resource you're putting into a human being who is ideally
40:10
going to bring in more bounty and more resource.
40:13
And more everything with your investment on into them.
40:17
If there's one thing I can change about the outlook of team
40:20
building and I had that cost because when you start and you
40:24
have nothing, yeah, that all the cents matter.
40:27
Yeah, you're pinch of pennies, correct?
40:29
And but eventually that the business cycles turn, things
40:32
change and people are an investment.
40:35
And I will never look at one of my team members, as you know,
40:38
costing me money unless they're the bad apples they do.
40:41
That happens if it is what it is.
40:42
You can't hire perfectly every time.
40:44
No. And people change.
40:45
Yeah, you know. What I learned too is we had AI
40:47
expected people to come in and do things 100% perfectly or
40:51
everyone to do everything 100% perfectly, which is unrealistic
40:54
for those who are unaware. No, but I I think we had to
40:59
learn to tell people what the expectation is and what what is
41:03
defined as. Done.
41:05
Yes, like what the end result is we're looking for to be more
41:08
specific in our instructions and we had to learn to be more
41:11
comfortable of having a gap of product being less of the
41:15
quality that we needed during the learning curve.
41:17
I need to give them the space to make mistakes and the product
41:21
suffer a little bit. Maybe it's not, it's 80% where I
41:24
need to be this month, but in three months, if I let them,
41:27
they'll be at 100%, but they'll be better at getting the other
41:30
stuff faster now and they'll be more comfortable to make
41:32
mistakes. And that was like a learned
41:34
skill, like also when you're getting started, like maybe you
41:37
have 100 cases, you got to make sure you're maximizing 100 of
41:40
those cases. You want to do best for every
41:41
client, but you can have one, you can have something, one
41:45
mistake is less costly in the in the long run with when you have
41:48
more volume. But those are some things that
41:50
we learned to give up was like I always tell John, like 80 or 90%
41:54
done by anyone else is 100% awesome.
41:57
That's pretty good. That's pretty good.
42:00
And to your point, that learning curve, people need it.
42:02
Yeah, Right. No one's going to get, you can't
42:04
hire anybody and have them give you 100% product every time.
42:08
Everyone's flavour is different. What you expect as excellence is
42:11
different. What John expects as excellent
42:13
is different. Yeah.
42:14
We actually differ on a lot of those things, yeah.
42:17
And like, their team has to get acquainted with your
42:20
expectations, right? And that only happens with reps.
42:23
Yeah, another thing we learned too.
42:24
Once again, Dan Martel, buy back your time or make a description
42:28
to Leah like any of the affiliate, like he's fantastic.
42:31
But as being a leader, once we start growing, one of the things
42:33
that I started focusing on, it's like we call it 1080 ten.
42:38
So you start, you're involved as a leader of the 1st 10% of
42:41
ideation of getting the project rolling.
42:43
Your team runs the 80% to get it to almost completion and then
42:46
that you're there for the integration or the final like
42:49
quality touch. So you're in the sandwich and
42:51
then you let your team like thrive in the middle and then
42:54
the more they do that, the better they get at it.
42:57
So you can just, hey, I have this idea that needs to work
42:59
like that. I have you get them on board.
43:01
They understand it faster. They run with it and then you
43:03
can like be there the last 10% and then you get so much stuff
43:06
faster done than when you're not the one doing all of it or
43:09
trying to do half of it. Yeah, for sure, man.
43:12
I mean. Are these things very passionate
43:13
about because I've had a lot of learning curves in the past year
43:15
or two? Yeah, yeah.
43:16
I mean, having a team, it's a compound interest.
43:19
There's only so much you can do. There's only so much value you
43:21
can bring to your clients by yourself.
43:23
We are nothing without our team, you know.
43:26
When I have my leadership meetings, what we do also is we
43:28
always ask like who? I always tell them like we need
43:31
the next star, who's the next star?
43:33
And we like identify those people and we give them
43:35
opportunities to invest in them and push them.
43:37
Some people don't want that, right?
43:38
And that's perfectly fine. I have some great employees
43:40
where they're like, this is what I want to do.
43:43
I want to stay in this role and I'm succeeding.
43:44
I'm like, we're perfectly happy where you are.
43:46
Whatever you want to be successful, that's you.
43:49
You see, we're here for. And then there's some people
43:51
that are like, I just want the opportunities and put them in
43:53
front of me and knock them down. And like, how do we put more and
43:55
more in front of them and just identify that talent and develop
43:57
them. And that's where you get like
43:59
huge return. Yeah, I forgot the author, but
44:01
you know, the GM model of the A players, the B players, the G
44:04
players go through it. Our company policy is a players
44:07
only. Yeah, I mean, it's ideal.
44:09
Yeah, it's ideal. But as you grow bigger, yeah,
44:12
the bell curve exists in all areas of life and it does also.
44:16
And you know, the A players, B players and C players.
44:19
But the bigger you get, you just got to be more mindful that C
44:22
players be developed, B players may develop into C players, and
44:26
A players may develop into C players.
44:28
All of the above. And so with team growing and
44:33
with the leadership, it's important to identify those
44:35
players. And then it's important to see
44:36
if they can be rehabilitated. Is there something going on in
44:39
their life? Is there something that I'm
44:41
doing wrong? Is it something that's
44:43
completely different, that's outside of work, that's
44:45
affecting their ability to perform at the highest levels?
44:48
All that to say, pay attention to your team.
44:50
Yeah, I have plenty of people who I was like, I can't believe
44:53
I'm done with this person. Like didn't click well.
44:56
And then I was like, you know, we pray on this, take a second,
45:00
let's give us more opportunities and they turn around or no
45:03
issues that are great players. Like that was on me.
45:06
Yeah, into, I would say some of the success that we've had is in
45:12
the recruiting is how do we find A players in C organizations?
45:16
Yes, that's actually a really, really good insight because
45:19
again, people don't leave jobs. They need bad leaders.
45:23
See, organizations are probably filled with filled with bad
45:26
leaders. And it's like, you get those
45:27
people like they're usually under appreciated, overworked
45:31
and underpaid. Sign me up, Let's change that
45:34
dynamic. And then you give an opportunity
45:37
to thrive and then you're like, oh, I'm like, I'm like, how did
45:40
you work at that company for that long?
45:41
It's because. They're probably killing it,
45:43
Yeah. You know, And that's what kept
45:45
them going, yeah. Harry, if you, I absolutely love
45:48
this conversation. I could keep this going for a
45:50
very long time. For the listeners sake, we'll
45:52
wrap it up. I would like to do this again
45:54
sometime soon. Would love to be on the Harry's
45:56
handles at podcast if you ever, ever have me leave.
46:00
One last final thoughts to the fans before we go closing out
46:03
the episode. We started the episode off
46:05
talking about how to create content, how to dive into a sea
46:10
of scary content creation, putting yourself out there on in
46:16
the in the universe of the Internet, tying it back into
46:19
Harry handles it. I I'd like to encourage
46:23
everybody to just handle it. Whatever your fear is, whatever
46:27
your hesitation is about whatever project you're about to
46:29
start, just do it. It'll be scary.
46:33
It'll hurt a little bit, but keep going, keep executing, plan
46:37
for it, move on to the next thing.
46:39
Don't get discouraged and just keep getting better and
46:42
eventually something will work out.
46:45
Amazing. I got goosebumps.
46:47
Awesome man. About to run through a brick
46:48
wall right now. Let's go all righty if.
46:50
People want to follow you. What are your socials?
46:53
You can find me on almost all those social media platforms at
46:56
at Harry Handles It. You can find our YouTube channel
47:00
at 11 in Albanyon Harry Handles It podcast.
47:04
You can find us more information on our website, elleninlaw.com.
47:08
Anything you need, shoot me Adm, shoot me an e-mail.
47:11
I'm here to support anybody in their journey.
47:13
I love, I love this stuff. I hope you can see it.
47:16
And I love helping people grow. It's it's like the coolest thing
47:21
to see that that I can have any sort of impact on making
47:25
somebody's life better and it's pretty cool.
47:29
Great way to end it. Thanks for being on Harry.
47:30
Thanks for having me.