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Therapeutic Knitting with Betsan Corkhill · Why I Knit

0:05
Mia Hobbs: Hello, and welcome to the Why I Knit podcast. My name
0:08
is Dr. Mia Hobbs and I'm a clinical psychologist who's
0:10
passionate about knitting and its benefits for our mental
0:13
health. Each week on the podcast, I interview a different
0:16
knitter about why they knit and how it benefits their mental
0:19
well being. This week on the podcast, I'm talking to Betsan
0:24
Corkhill. Betson is a former physiotherapist and lifestyle
0:27
coach. She's an expert in therapeutic knitting, and also
0:30
the author of Knit for Health and Wellness. You can find links
0:35
to the Stitch links Website and any of the yarns and patterns we
0:38
discuss in the show notes.
0:46
Hi Betsan welcome to the podcast.
0:48
Betsan Corkhill: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
0:51
Mia Hobbs: It's a pleasure. I'm really pleased to be able to
0:53
talk to the kind of one of the founders of therapeutic
0:57
knitting. I would love to start with asking where your story
1:02
with knitting began.
1:03
Betsan Corkhill: Well, my mother told me to knit when I was
1:06
seven. I can remember being intensely frustrated at the time
1:10
because I immediately wanted a jumper. So I didn't then knit
1:18
for quite some time. And it actually until I was expecting
1:21
my first child, and then I knitted quite a few things, and
1:23
I knitted the christening shawl. And then I had another big gap.
1:27
And I went back to it when I started this project, the
1:30
research into the meditative creative and social benefits of
1:34
knitting because I because I'm really firm believer in
1:37
practising what I preach, and now I do it more or less every
1:40
day.
1:40
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And did the project come about first rather
1:44
than you weren't knitting at the time? You started because of the
1:47
project?
1:47
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's a it's quite a long,
1:51
it's, it's, I think it's quite an interesting story, how I got
1:54
into it, actually, because I was a I was working as a
1:57
physiotherapist, a community physiotherapist, and I was asked
2:03
by GPs to go into people's homes for people who weren't able to
2:08
get to the physiotherapy department for some reason. So
2:11
it could be a whole range of reasons across a whole range of
2:13
age groups. And I soon realised that, you know, call her Mrs.
2:18
Smith, Mrs. Smith wasn't getting out of her chair, because she
2:21
had no reason to get out of her chair, she had absolutely
2:24
nothing in the day, no purpose, nothing she was successful at.
2:29
And I wasn't at that you know, the system didn't allow me to,
2:34
to, to give the time and the treatment that that person
2:39
needed. And I was allowed to go in three times maybe to change
2:43
somebody's whole lifestyle. So I got really frustrated and I, I
2:47
left and I became a freelance production editor for a range
2:52
magazines, and ended up ended up on a range of craft and across
3:01
the whole, the whole craft portfolio. And I did a three,
3:07
six month stint on the craft portfolio, one of my jobs was to
3:12
sort the letters pages. And that entailed reading all the letters
3:18
that came into the office every day, and they literally got
3:21
sacks full of letters every day. And I realised that most of them
3:26
are talking about the therapeutic benefit of their
3:28
craft, but particularly knitting. And I mentioned it to
3:33
the editor of one of the knitting magazines? And she
3:36
said, Oh, yes, I we know that something really important here.
3:39
We really don't know what it what it is. We've got a filing
3:42
cabinet full of letters there. Would you like to go read them?
3:45
And they were literally 1000s of letters because they just run a
3:47
competition about what is it you find, you know, beneficial about
3:51
knitting. And it was the first time that somebody with a
3:56
medical background had read these letters. And it was really
4:00
striking. They were really profound life stories. You know,
4:05
I remember I remember very vividly the first letter I
4:08
picked up was from a 14 year old girl who had written I don't
4:13
have to take my pain medication when I knit, I am often in
4:15
hospital and I don't so I don't have to take that medication
4:18
when I knit. It helps me and the second was from a lady who tried
4:25
to commit suicide and her husband had taken her in a
4:28
simple knitting project into hospital out of desperation,
4:31
really to try and get her interested in something. And she
4:34
said now, now I look forward to my next project. And I look
4:38
forward to tomorrow. And it changed her life. So there were
4:42
those kinds of profound stories and I thought wow there's
4:45
something really important here
4:47
Mia Hobbs: that gave me goosebumps to hear that. Yeah.
4:49
And to think they were sitting in a filing cabinet until you
4:51
came along.
4:52
Betsan Corkhill: yes. And so my first thought was, I wonder if
4:54
this wonder if this could help Mrs. Smith who sits in her
4:58
armchair said to, you know, in our armchair to enable her to be
5:02
successful at something too. So using it as a springboard to, to
5:06
get interested in the world in the world, you know, open up the
5:10
world and get interested in doing other things. And then it
5:14
then as more I started to research it, because I wanted to
5:18
know, I think the striking things is there were large
5:22
numbers of people saying very, very similar things, as I'm sure
5:26
you've discovered. And I wanted to know, why that was happening,
5:30
what was happening, and if there was any science behind it,
5:34
because you know, there had to be something happening within
5:38
them biologically and chemically, for them to feel
5:41
better. And so I wanted to know, what, what what was happening.
5:45
So that's how it started. And the more I researched more, I
5:49
realised how you know how important it was. So then I
5:52
started thinking about developing the idea of
5:55
therapeutic knitting which, and for me, I would, I would
5:59
describe therapeutic knitting as a combination of knitting and
6:03
knowledge. So enhancing that, you know, knitting has its
6:06
benefits, but you can learn how to enhance those benefits. And
6:10
you can have knowledge about how to do that. But also, you know,
6:15
people who are fit and well can do that. But also, if you've got
6:19
a medical condition, you can learn about that condition and
6:23
learn how to use knitting to manage the symptoms, further
6:26
enhance those benefits. So that's where that's where it all
6:30
started. So I approached the pain clinic here in Bath, and
6:34
asked if they'd be interested in setting up a group. I didn't
6:38
hear back from them for about six months. So I thought, well,
6:42
you know, that's it. And then six months later, I said, well,
6:44
Yeah. Still in there somewhere.
6:46
they said, Yeah, we'd be quite interested. And that was back in
6:50
2006. So I started up, I started a therapeutic knitting group in
6:54
a pain clinic. And that really got me interested in the subject
6:58
of pain. So since then, I've specialised in helping working
7:02
with people with long term pain. And I thought well, ooh help i'm
7:06
, you know how I'm gonna have to run the knitting group. In two
7:10
weeks time, I better get back to knitting. Learning how to knit
7:14
again. Of course, once you've learned to you never forget it.
7:20
Yes. So then I got back to doing it myself. I do. I do really
7:27
believe in practising what I preach. I don't think you can
7:29
advise people to do things if you're not doing it yourself.
7:32
Really?
7:34
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. So is that do you keep doing it in your
7:36
personal life for yourself?
7:38
Betsan Corkhill: Yes, yes. Yeah.
7:40
Mia Hobbs: And do you feel like you've noticed those therapeutic
7:43
benefits even on any level for you for your life? Are there
7:46
times when you feel like you turn to the knitting more?
7:50
Betsan Corkhill: Oh, yes, absolutely. It's, it's, you
7:54
know, I use it as a as a way of managing stress on more or less
7:59
daily basis and bringing that especially recently, I think
8:02
people have needed to keep those those you know, sort of stress
8:06
systems. rebalance them because it's been stressful. In the last
8:12
20 months for everybody,
8:13
Mia Hobbs: yeah, during COVID
8:14
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah, so I think it's become more important
8:17
for people to incorporate those things into into their daily
8:21
lives.
8:22
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, I have to say I also felt really lucky to have a
8:26
hobby, something I love doing that I could still do in COVID
8:30
that it wasn't something you know, my main hobby was
8:34
something that wasn't allowed because of restrictions. Yeah.
8:38
Yeah. Are there particular things you enjoy knitting at the
8:40
moment?
8:42
Betsan Corkhill: Well, I have a I have different projects going
8:46
and I've always advised people to have a range of different
8:49
projects on the go according to the mood they're in on the day
8:52
but but also maybe according to mood they would like to move
8:55
themselves into because you go into a different mind state with
8:58
with whatever project you're on. So I have I will have an easy
9:02
one and or a more or a more challenging one on the go and my
9:11
focus has changed actually you know from from when I was a
9:14
child at seven to becoming really frustrated not being able
9:17
to get an end product now it's more it's changed in that I can
9:22
I can knit something that will take a year to finish and and be
9:26
quite happy with that and just do it for the process. Yeah, not
9:31
for not for that end product. The end product when it comes is
9:34
extra specially nice. I spent the whole of the first lockdown
9:40
knitting a I knitted we had our first grandchild arrived in the
9:46
first lock bit very beginning of the First lockdown
9:49
Mia Hobbs: congratulations
9:51
Betsan Corkhill: we weren't allowed to see him. Oh, because
9:54
they live quite a quite they live three hour drive away. So I
9:58
decided right I'll knit a cot blanket as a as a hug from us
10:02
because we couldn't give him a physical hug. And our daughter
10:07
who's living with us at the time said, Oh, I love that, would you
10:10
make me one only I want to double bed size. So I spent the
10:15
whole of the first lockdown knitting this double bed. Very
10:20
easy sort of garter stitch, but with a slightly zigzag, you
10:23
know, sort of pattern in it. And it was wonderful. That's what
10:27
kept me sane, I think in those first really anxious months,
10:31
when everything was still very unknown. And, yeah, so that was
10:37
her Christmas, one of her Christmas presents last year.
10:41
Mia Hobbs: I guess she's got that to look back on. And you
10:44
can always associate that blanket, I guess with, you know,
10:47
getting through that really difficult period of time. Yeah.
10:51
Does it matter to you what the stitch pattern is? Or like more
10:54
in the process? Does that make a difference or not particularly
10:58
Betsan Corkhill: Not really, it needs to be one that I can, if I
11:02
want something easy and rhythmic like that, it needs to be
11:05
something that I can, my brain can remember without really
11:09
referring to a pattern all the time. So yeah, but I but I, I
11:15
have, you know, sort of a done a lace shawl. Well not done. I'm
11:19
doing a lace shawl and another and another large sort of
11:26
shawls, scarf stroke shawl pattern. It's got a few
11:31
different complicated lines in it. You know, in between, I'm
11:36
rhythmically away, and then suddenly I come on this line
11:38
write I have to pay attention now. So that's a nice one.
11:42
Because it takes it takes me about an hour to do a row
11:45
Mia Hobbs: Oh, wow. It's big.
11:47
Betsan Corkhill: It's sock yarn, Well, it's in sock yarn. Yes,
11:50
it's, it depends. I pick up on sometimes I'll just do a dish
11:54
cloth. Yeah. So you'll do it or a face cloth?
11:57
Mia Hobbs: So pretty much every day, you'll do some knitting.
12:00
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm exactly the same. And I definitely also
12:03
relate to the idea of having projects for different, I don't
12:07
know, moments in my life. So I need something I find if I'm
12:10
doing a zoom training or something, I need to knit
12:13
something rhythmical. And easy, because it helps me focus on
12:18
sitting still and listening. Yeah, I'm learning something.
12:21
Whereas I also like to have something more complicated. They
12:24
have to really focus on so that it's not possible to think about
12:27
stressful things for the rest of my life at the same time as
12:30
doing the knitting.
12:31
Betsan Corkhill: Yes, yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, obviously,
12:35
the level is different for everybody. But if you have an
12:37
easy project going on, you can listen to and take in
12:41
information and retain information. I think lots of
12:44
knitters say they retain the information better more
12:47
effectively than anything. I wouldn't be able to do that with
12:51
a complex pattern. No, it would have to be an easy one. Yeah. So
12:55
my my brain, my brain is doing something automatically in the
12:58
background, but my attention is on the on the talk.
13:03
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, the same. And I find it's easy to do, you know,
13:05
stocking stitch or garter stitch for, you know, you can get
13:09
through the boring inches on on a sweater or something. While
13:12
you're listening. Definitely find it helps me focus. And I
13:16
would love to hear more about Stitchlinks and the kind of
13:20
community you've created. And I know your invitation on the
13:24
stitchlinks Website for people to send you stories about their
13:27
relationship with knitting. I'm assuming that was inspired by
13:30
this filing cabinet that you this treasure trove. You came
13:33
across all those letters?
13:35
Betsan Corkhill: Yes, yeah. And you know that I continue to get
13:39
stories and the stories are mind blowing. And they're in, you
13:44
know, in what I mean, I had one yesterday from somebody who
13:47
said, my mother, last year, my mother and father were both in
13:51
intensive care with COVID. Fortunately, they both survived.
13:55
But her mother returned home from hospital having to sleep on
13:59
the sofa because she wasn't able to walk upstairs. She's too
14:03
breathless to walk upstairs. Obviously, quite low, unable to
14:08
use her left hand. And her daughter took her some yarn and
14:14
some needles and asked her to knit a blanket for her. And the
14:19
mother has now just found her purpose in life, and she's
14:25
regained the use of a left hand. Wow. So yeah, she's she and she
14:29
puts it all down to knitting.
14:33
Mia Hobbs: So I guess my area of work is mainly in the mental
14:35
health and psychological benefits of knitting, but it
14:37
sounds like you're really noticing also physical changes,
14:41
like the experience of pain. And yes, I guess rehabilitation
14:46
physically.
14:47
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah, yes. And it's, I mean, as you know, it's
14:51
all intricately intertwined, isn't it? Yes. You know, if you
14:56
if you feel better mentally, you're more likely to go out and
14:59
do something physically, aren't you and it's if you feel better
15:03
physically, you feel better mentally. It's all in. It's all
15:05
intertwined. So, yeah, you see the benefits across the, across
15:11
the board. And I think doing something like creative like
15:15
knitting in, in lockdown or in a situation of greater uncertainty
15:21
and, you know, our fear systems were, were were used werent't
15:25
they to, to, to give information out about COVID. And because you
15:31
couldn't get that information across by appealing to people's
15:34
common sense, the only way they could get people to adhere to
15:38
lockdowns was to terrify the life out of everybody, and work.
15:42
And you know, and all those advertising, slogans were were
15:46
based on our fear systems and making us afraid to go out and
15:50
touch things and be close to people. And you can't just
15:55
switch those on and you know, haven't switched on for two
15:59
years, or 18 months, two years and expect them then to switch
16:02
off again, you know, people are still still last year there. And
16:06
I think having something creative, like knitting in that
16:09
time, has been almost the opposite to that, to that level
16:12
of fear. It's, it creates a sense of safety. It's colourful,
16:18
it's constructive. It's sort of the All in all the things that
16:21
are opposite to, to what we to what our minds werete nding to
16:26
dwell on all the time.
16:28
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. It would be really helpful if you've got a
16:32
kind of summary of the all of the work you've done and the
16:36
things that you've noticed being therapeutic about knitting, have
16:40
you got a kind of a is there a way of synthesising? I think
16:43
you've got it right? You've got a knitting equation on the
16:46
Stitchlinks Website. Yeah, it'd be helpful to hear a little bit
16:49
about that.
16:51
Betsan Corkhill: So the knitting equation, I divided it up into
16:56
three columns. So the first column are the movements, and I
17:00
think the movements are really important. And the second column
17:05
is having an enriched environment. And then the third
17:09
column is the benefits of the social engagement and in a
17:12
group. So you can choose the the benefits of knitting are diff
17:17
alone are different from knitting in a group. But the
17:22
movements, the movements and is portability. I think what sets
17:27
knitting apart from other creative activities, yeah. So
17:33
the movements are two-handed, bilateral, they cross the
17:37
midline of the body, they're rhythmic, and they're repetitive
17:41
and they become automatic, and all those have a certain number
17:45
of benefits. But I think the one that's of most benefit is rhythm
17:50
of movements. Most of the stories will talk about the
17:57
rhythm of movements and calming the mind down and there is some
18:02
research now that your brain likes rhythmic movement or
18:06
rhythmic activities, because it makes the brain feel safe. You
18:10
know, you'll you'll know that the the brain is always
18:13
predicting what's around the corner, so it doesn't like
18:16
surprises. It doesn't like uncertainty last that's why a
18:19
lot of people have struggled over the last 20 months your
18:21
brain hates uncertainty and although uncertainty has always
18:24
been there since the moment you were conceived. You know, you we
18:28
used to live life with it in the background really was but over
18:31
the last 20 months has been thrust to the forefront of our
18:34
minds every single day. And rhythm is predictable. So it
18:41
makes the brain feel safe. So anything that's rhythmic will,
18:46
will help you know I've had people send stories about they
18:48
find drumming, for example, has a very similar effect. Some
18:53
people say baking bread, kneading bread has the same
18:56
effect playing a musical instrument. When you think about
18:59
those things, like they're great. And I would encourage
19:00
people to do a variety of things. But you can't take it
19:04
with it with you on a bus, you can't do it on public transport.
19:08
And that's the huge benefit of knitting is that you have a tool
19:13
really effective tool for calming you down almost
19:17
instantaneously that you can carry with you and we we've had
19:22
quite a lot of success curing panic attacks for example. Lots
19:26
of people can't go on public transport without it
19:29
particularly now. And they you know, you can use it in the
19:34
middle of the night. It doesn't disturb anybody else. So that's
19:41
really what raises it up. We've we've really struggled apart
19:44
from crochet. And then the only way the crochet differs is that
19:50
some styles of crochet are very one-handed. And we tend to I
19:57
would encourage people to learn more two-handed techniques Have
20:00
crochet because I think two-handed Nature is, is
20:04
important.
20:05
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, I wondered if you could talk a little bit more
20:06
about that, because you and I had a conversation before we
20:09
started recording about a study that's in progress. It's using
20:12
crochet and that it is different to knitting. And it's something
20:16
somebody else has mentioned in one of my interviews about
20:19
crocheting, but not quite finding the same therapeutic
20:23
kind of feeling from crochet. And I'm interested in and I
20:27
think that two-handed and the bilateral movements is something
20:29
I think a lot of people won't know about. So I wondered if you
20:32
could say a little bit more about the theories about why
20:35
that's helpful.
20:37
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah, I think, I mean, there's no research to
20:39
back this up specifically on knitting. But there is in other
20:43
areas, if you're, if you're using, you know, everybody, most
20:46
people know if using your left hand is controlled by the right
20:49
side of your brain, and vice versa. When you bring your hands
20:53
together to form a complex pattern of movements, your brain
20:58
has to work really quite hard to coordinate those hands, it
21:01
occupies a lot of capacity in that moment. If you're crossing
21:05
the midline, then you're going over into that sort of brain
21:10
space with your hands. And that's, that actually
21:13
complicates things even even further. So that you know, there
21:19
are quite a few people that say that, yes, maybe they find
21:23
sewing, set rhythmic. But a two-handed movement seems to
21:30
induce a meditative state more readily. Because you're taking
21:35
up more capacity more of the brain is involved in that core
21:39
inner coordination. So you know, there's some with with crochet,
21:47
if you;re holding the crochet hook with one hand and just
21:50
holding the yarn with the other hand and just picking up the
21:52
yarn, you're very much more or less you just using one hand.
21:59
There are techniques where you can feed the yarn with your with
22:05
the yarn holding hands so that you are getting this more
22:08
coordinated pattern of movements. That's just a theory
22:12
of mine. But I think it's you know, if you get if you're
22:14
getting down to the real details, you have to look at
22:16
things like that.
22:18
Mia Hobbs: I was thinking about EMDR. Yeah, so eye movement,
22:23
desensitisation reprocessing, which is something used in
22:25
trauma therapy by psychologists, it's not something I'm
22:28
specifically trained in, but lots of my colleagues are, and
22:31
that uses eye movements and sometimes tapping and crosses
22:37
the midline of the body. And the idea is that those repetitive
22:40
movements help with re processing a traumatic memory.
22:44
So I think its a really interesting link
22:45
Betsan Corkhill: I think there is there is discussion going on
22:49
with whether the mechanisms behind what's going on with
22:51
knitting, very similar to EMDR. And I've certainly worked with
22:57
people suffering from post traumatic stress disorder and
23:01
their incidence of flashbacks and the severity of the
23:05
flashbacks that has improved significantly with knitting. In
23:09
fact, knitting was a the treatment of choice for soldiers
23:13
after World War One for shellshock. Which, which we now
23:18
know as post traumatic stress they used knitting. So yeah, the
23:24
there is that rhythmic, repetitive movement that
23:27
crosses the midline and to teachers of young children will
23:30
say they do something called Brain gym, which is a series of
23:34
movements that cross the midline of the body to get the brain,
23:38
awake in the mornings. And again, there's a there's a, you
23:44
know, focus on crossing that midline. The other thing I would
23:48
say about crochet is that if you holding a hook and you have a
23:52
sort of like a pincer grip on the hook, and you're, you're
23:55
turning your hand all the time that people that are susceptible
23:59
to hand and wrist pain, get more real hand and wrist pain, so
24:03
need to pace need to pace crochet more than they pace.
24:08
Knitting. Yeah, so that's the other. That's the other issue if
24:10
you if you have a tendency towards hand and wrist pain to
24:13
be a little bit more careful there. But I would encourage
24:17
people to do both this. You know, the great as you know that
24:22
variety is good for the brain, so you don't want well,
24:25
therapeutic knitting is not about encouraging people to sit
24:28
and knit all day. It's about using it as a tool to improve
24:32
your well being. It's about not sitting for more than about 20
24:37
minutes. It's about getting up and moving around. That's all
24:39
part of that therapeutic side, getting a circulation going and
24:44
using it as part of a whole sort of wellbeing toolbox. Really?
24:49
Yeah.
24:50
Mia Hobbs: Have you had much? I don't know. I'm wondering about
24:53
what the reception was from academics when you're applying
24:56
for research funding or for people who were suggested to
25:00
come to a knitting group for pain management, like how have
25:04
you found that has been received by people who might not be
25:07
knitters.
25:08
Betsan Corkhill: In the beginning. Scientists
25:12
researchers laughed and laughed. And I don't know if you know,
25:17
but I had to call knitting something different in the
25:19
beginning.
25:20
Mia Hobbs: I think I read that in your book that you had to
25:22
rebrand it.
25:23
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah. Had to call it a bilateral rhythmic
25:25
psychosocial intervention.
25:28
Mia Hobbs: And that worked?
25:30
Betsan Corkhill: it did it did it? Yeah, it's really weird.
25:35
There is a oh ay would those who are saying there's almost a fear
25:40
of using the word knitting in some sort of ways or a fear of
25:44
being seen as a knitter? It's, it's bizarre. This is it's all
25:50
it's a fear of the because people see it as something
25:53
that's been that's done by women. It's soft. It's, you
25:57
know, it's the opposite to yours to science really soft. It's
26:00
fluffy, done by people think it's done by older women or your
26:06
granny in and there's a lot of that thinking that's going on,
26:12
underneath what people think of knitting. Yeah. And soon as I
26:18
started to argue, from the scientific perspective, you
26:20
know, I'd be in a conference and people will say, say to me a,
26:23
what do you do, then I say, Well, if I do I use the K word
26:27
or not. And if I use the K word, people would in a and say, you
26:37
know, we're using knitting to treat chronic pain. They would
26:42
laugh, and you could see their gaze going elsewhere and say,
26:46
How am I going to get away from this man woman? I was treated a
26:50
bit like a knitting evangelist who wanted to spread the word
26:53
knitting, whereas ironically, at that time, I wasn't, I wouldn't
26:58
have called myself a knitter. Okay. I had not got back into
27:01
it, then. Yeah. But if I said, we're using a bilateral rhythmic
27:07
psychosocial intervention, they would say, well, that's
27:11
interesting. And what are you doing? How are you doing that
27:13
then? And that would open that would open the door where we're
27:16
using knitting, as you know, so it wasn't? Yeah, it wasn't seen
27:20
as knitting then.
27:22
Mia Hobbs: That's so interesting. It took you a while
27:24
to overcome that stigma?
27:26
Betsan Corkhill: Yes. Yeah. And we I know, we've had funding
27:29
proposals turned down without them being read, because the
27:33
word knitting has been in the title.
27:37
Mia Hobbs: So has it changed at all? Since you still, you said
27:40
started in 2005?
27:42
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah, it has changed. I'm asked to speak
27:46
quite regularly now to groups of doctors. Before COVID, we had a
27:51
number of GP clinics and hospitals who were thinking of
27:56
starting up therapeutic knitting groups obviously, can't couldn't
27:59
do that in person now. But it's, it's people don't laugh anymore.
28:08
And also, I have a lot more confidence in it as well, which
28:13
makes difference. Because it was a bit it was, it was quite
28:17
challenging to me personally, you know, if you have somebody
28:20
just laugh at you Sure. When you think when you're thinking,
28:25
right, okay.
28:27
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, I think it took me a while to feel confident
28:30
enough to do that. I think, you know, I left my NHS job in 2017,
28:34
and went into private practice. And as I was leaving my NHS
28:38
team, I was known as the knitter there. And I'd organised a few,
28:42
you know, collaborative projects where we knitted squares, and I
28:45
put them together to make blankets for people's babies.
28:48
And I said, you know, I'd really like to run therapeutic knitting
28:52
groups. And it was slightly kind of taken as a bit of a joke. And
28:56
I think it's taken me until this year, really to think there
28:59
actually, there is enough evidence behind the idea of
29:02
running therapeutic knitting groups and starting to use it
29:05
more in my work without feeling worried about how people will
29:09
respond. And I think I've also taken some of the principles of
29:12
therapeutic knitting and applied to a bit flexibly to people who
29:15
were say, would say no to knitting, but they're using some
29:19
similar skills to create circut boards or doing something
29:22
slightly different, but getting some of the same benefits in
29:26
whatever way feels accessible for them. Yeah,
29:28
Betsan Corkhill: absolutely. I mean, I was known by one GP
29:31
practice as that mad knitting woman. And, and even now I can
29:37
go to a conference and introduced to somebody and
29:42
they'll say, Oh, so you're that knitting woman you are not as,
29:46
as anything else apart from that knitting woman, but now it's not
29:51
done so in such a derogatory way.
29:56
Mia Hobbs: Maybe people are starting to see a bit more of
29:58
the benefits. I certainly feel it, for example, conferences
30:02
just before COVID, there was more of an idea about, it's okay
30:05
to doodle, or it's okay to do something if it helps you to
30:08
focus on sitting still for six hours and listening to a
30:11
training course, which actually, we as humans are not really
30:14
designed to do.
30:15
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah. And I think there's a lot, I think,
30:18
actually COVID has helped bizarrely in some way, in that
30:23
people are a lot more accepting of what we would call mind body
30:30
therapies as well. And there's now a lot of recognition in you
30:38
know, needing a bottom up as well as a top down approach. And
30:45
the benefits of that, and, you know, knitting is, is it, you
30:49
know, changes the input into the brain but it, also induces that
30:52
level of calm. So you get that top down, calm and the bottom
30:55
up, rhythm coming in. And, and there's more recognition
30:59
scientifically now of, of of that.
31:03
Mia Hobbs: And I wonder whether actually COVID has forced us all
31:07
to think about what do I need in order to be happy and healthy?
31:11
Like, what do I get from my mind and my body? Yeah, to be able to
31:16
function? Well, as a human? Yes. A lot of things were thrown up
31:20
in the air.
31:21
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah. It's also alerted people to your Well,
31:24
yes, I am connected to the natural world as well. And it's
31:27
all you know, it's all tied in. It's not. You can't solve
31:31
everything with with a pill. It's all interrelated. It's all
31:34
intertwined.
31:36
Mia Hobbs: And one of the questions I always ask in the
31:39
podcast is whether someone can talk about a significant
31:43
knitting project for them. So that could be one of your
31:46
projects, it could be one that's come up in as part of your work.
31:50
Betsan Corkhill: Actually. The the blanket that's behind me
31:52
there.
31:53
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, that's beautiful. I was noticing that.
31:56
Betsan Corkhill: It's when I did. It's my comfort blanket for
31:58
when my mother died.
32:00
Mia Hobbs: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.
32:02
Betsan Corkhill: That was it. It was while it was eight years ago
32:04
now. But it's pretty, it was pretty traumatic at the time.
32:09
And as it happened, my one of my best friends husband, died in
32:15
the same week in traumatic in a traumatic way. And we both
32:20
belong to the same knitting group. So we both started, we
32:25
sat with each other. And I think in those times, you, you don't
32:31
want to talk you you know, people, when people come around,
32:33
they feel the need to talk when you don't want to talk. So we
32:36
just sat with each other in silence and knitted those
32:39
blankets,
32:40
Mia Hobbs: did you knit the same blanket?
32:42
Betsan Corkhill: She knitted a slightly different pattern. But
32:43
yeah, she was just going in straight lines. And that's all
32:47
we needed. And mine was more or less straight lines. But members
32:53
from the knitting group would knock on the door, bring some
32:56
cake and sit, just sit down and knit with us and not say
33:00
anything. And we would, you know, and and they would come
33:02
and go and supported us. So I think that was it actually
33:05
turned into quite a special time. And you know, we both have
33:10
that we both have those blankets now. Yeah.
33:14
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. Does it feel? Does it feel comforting? Now?
33:17
Yes. to have the blanket to remember time?
33:21
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah. But it also feels comforting to know
33:23
that that helped me deal with processing the trauma of it all.
33:30
And it really did. Yeah. And I think without it, perhaps I
33:35
would have had some post traumatic flashbacks, because I
33:38
was sort of before, you know, sort of, immediately after the
33:42
event, I was having those. And they certainly helped to calm
33:47
those down. So yes, I would say that's,
33:50
Mia Hobbs: so that's a really special blanket.
33:52
Betsan Corkhill: Yes, yeah.
33:54
Mia Hobbs: And I do think that's a really powerful thing about
33:56
knitting that you can get through something really hard
34:00
and have something that is a very physical tangible reminder.
34:04
But also in a comforting way, often of overcoming or living
34:08
through surviving something that was difficult.
34:12
Betsan Corkhill: Yeah, I think a blanket is a nice is a nice
34:15
project to do in that kind of thing because it because it
34:19
keeps you warm as you're doing it sort of wraps around you as
34:23
you as you're making it. So I think it's a really nice
34:25
project, mindless project to do while you and I think, you know,
34:32
one of the things that came out in our in my observations of
34:36
doing this work is that people don't get an opportunity to just
34:41
be with other people without feeling the need to participate
34:46
or talk very much anymore. i It was my mother who, who actually
34:53
brought up when I was visiting in when I was staying with her.
34:57
Towards the end of her life. She said, it's so nice to have you
35:02
here in the evening because I don't feel I have to talk, I can
35:05
just be with somebody else. So whereas I got visitors, she had
35:09
used to have visitors all the time, who pop in for, they pop
35:12
in for a chat and feel they had to make conversation. And she
35:17
said, I don't want to make conversation all the time, I
35:19
just want to sit and be. So what actually, that's what knitting
35:24
allows, even in a knitting group, you go into a group and
35:27
sit in the group, but you can sit and just be
35:30
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And I found that really helpful for people
35:34
who don't find social situations so easy that there's a shared
35:38
focus, there's a there's a topic of conversation if you want one.
35:41
But also there isn't any requirement to talk that you
35:45
could just be there with other people knitting, and not say
35:48
anything at all. And that wouldn't be considered unusual
35:51
or rude, or
35:52
Betsan Corkhill: I think I think, I think that's one of the
35:55
most important aspects of a group of particularly
35:58
therapeutic group. Because it people come along, even if
36:04
they're not, even if they're feeling particularly vulnerable
36:06
on that day, because they know they don't have to participate.
36:09
All the people who used to come to my pain knitting group,
36:14
wouldn't have gone to a group if it wasn't for knitting, because
36:17
every other group would require you to introduce yourself to say
36:21
what you do, you know, and and require you to to take part. But
36:27
it's, you know, what I one of the things we identified was
36:31
that knitting is one of the few activities that you can have eye
36:35
contact or not. Yeah, and the or not, it was really important,
36:39
because if you're not feeling like participating, you put it
36:42
perfectly acceptable to just sit and knit quietly. And just as
36:46
therapeutic to just sit and knit quietly as it is to join in with
36:50
the chat. Yeah. And that's what makes it so, so valuable as a
36:55
therapeutic tool for a group.
36:59
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, yeah, I've definitely spoken to people
37:01
don't always, you know, they've told me they don't find eye
37:03
contact easy, or sometimes it feels challenging. And knitting
37:08
is one of the things that has helped them to be in group
37:12
spaces, because it just isn't required in the same way it's
37:15
perfect. You know, lots of people are just looking down at
37:18
their knitting, or they look up, you know, fleetingly and that's
37:22
fine.
37:22
Betsan Corkhill: Yes. And there's always a topic of
37:24
conversation. Now you can say, Well, I would really like that
37:28
colour, or, you know, I've done this what pattern you're doing.
37:32
So you don't have to hunt for a topic of conversation, either. I
37:37
think I don't know whether you found but what I found when
37:41
running knitting groups is that conversation tends to get much
37:45
deeper and more intimate more quickly. And people find it easy
37:49
to talk when they knit. And I think that's something to do
37:53
with the automatic nature of movements. And I wasn't, at
37:57
first I wasn't, I didn't really focus on the automatic nature.
38:01
But now I think that this is really quite important, because
38:06
I think if you give the brain a background automatic task to do,
38:10
then it's somehow and some of the stories say this, actually,
38:14
that somehow frees up the rest of the mind, the brain to do
38:18
other things. It occupies the brain or at a low level,
38:22
enabling them to talk to talk. And, you know, very, very, I've
38:26
lost count to the number of times the people have said to me
38:30
while we're sitting and knitting together. I haven't told anybody
38:35
this before. Yeah. And it's usually a pretty horrendous
38:38
story of some of some sort of trauma that they've kept in that
38:43
they haven't felt able to talk about.
38:47
Mia Hobbs: I wonder whether the eye contact helps with that as
38:49
well. Because certainly some of the things that I work a lot
38:51
with teenagers and their families, and I find that
38:55
parents of teenagers often say, Well, they don't really open up
38:58
to me, unless we happen to be in the car driving somewhere. And I
39:02
guess driving is another automatic kind of process, but
39:06
also, from the teenagers perspective, who's probably not
39:10
doing the driving, they're sitting not having to make eye
39:13
contact or have an intense we're sitting down to have a chat type
39:17
conversation. And maybe that's feels a bit safer to then start
39:22
to talk about something that might be quite difficult.
39:25
Betsan Corkhill: Yes, I think I mean, I think it's that feeling
39:27
of safety, that's the important you get a sort of it does. When
39:32
you're knitting you do get a sense of safety of being safe,
39:36
being safe in that moment. And again, I think that's down to
39:40
the down to the movements that those rhythmic movements and
39:46
yeah, you feel safer to divulge that information.
39:52
Mia Hobbs: That's so interesting. I always end the
39:56
podcast with with asking what's the greatest gift that you
40:00
You've been given by knitting that's helped helped you in the
40:02
rest of your life. I don't know what you what your ideas are
40:05
about that Betsan.
40:07
Betsan Corkhill: I think for me, it's set me on a completely
40:10
different path in life.
40:12
Mia Hobbs: In terms of your career. Yeah, yeah.
40:15
Betsan Corkhill: And it's got me thinking outside the box because
40:18
you know, I was a physio and as a physio we were trained in a
40:22
very biomechanical way. And but I'm completely sort of away from
40:26
that now. And it's It's opened my ideas up to a whole range of
40:31
issues. I'm I do a lot of work now in the world of, of long
40:37
term pain with people long term pain. I've become a Tai Chi
40:42
teacher as a result of knitting, which sounds strange, but there
40:47
are many similarities. It's sort of rhythmic, rhythmic movement.
40:50
It's so yeah, so it's completely changed the course of my life.
40:56
Really?
40:58
Mia Hobbs: Wow. So that's a big thing. Yeah, yeah, sure. I'm
41:03
sure there'll be loads of people who want to hear more about your
41:05
work about the research and therapeutic knitting in general,
41:09
how can they find out more about your work or get in touch with
41:13
you?
41:14
Betsan Corkhill: Well, my through the websites
41:16
stitchlinks.com, but also my book knit for health and
41:19
wellness, how to knit a flexible mind, has got a lot of advice
41:24
about therapeutic knitting and history of it. And I'm quite
41:29
happy for people to email me Betsan@Stitchlinks.com. Okay.
41:35
Yeah. So happy for anybody to contact me.
41:40
Mia Hobbs: Lovely. I mean, Betson it's been an absolute
41:42
pleasure to hear all about your experiences. It's been so
41:46
interesting. And thank you so much for agreeing to come on the
41:49
podcast.
41:50
Betsan Corkhill: Thank you. I've really enjoyed it.
41:57
Mia Hobbs: Thank you for listening to the Why I Knit
41:58
podcast. If you'd like to find out more about therapeutic
42:01
knitting you can follow me on Instagram
42:03
@knittingistherapeutic. Or check out my website therapeutic
42:07
knitting.org. To be notified when a new podcast is released.
42:11
Please subscribe on your podcast app.