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The Boston Strangler · The Next Reel Film Podcast

• 0:06
  Pete Wright: I'm Pete Wright.
• 0:07
  Andy Nelson: And I'm Andy Nelson.
• 0:08
  Pete Wright: Welcome to the next reel. When the movie ends
• 0:11
  Andy Nelson: Our conversation begins.
• 0:12
  Pete Wright: The Boston Strangler is over. Everybody's banging everybody. It's a horny world.
• 0:18
  Trailer: This is the story of the self confessed Boston Strangler based on Gerald Frank's startling bestseller. It has been filmed where the actual happenings made shocking headlines around the world.
• 0:32
  Trailer: I want you to coordinate the investigations with the Commonwealth, set up a strangler bureau.
• 0:38
  Trailer: I'm not even remotely qualified for this kind of thing.
• 0:41
  Trailer: You want the stranglings to go on? That's not fair.
• 0:45
  Trailer: Preview audiences have acclaimed this a remarkable motion picture. Academy Award stature. For the indelible quality of this film is that the tension, the suspense, the emotion mount when the camera goes beyond the panic stricken streets of Boston, beyond the dark corridors of the apartment houses where the strangler silently prowled, beyond the bedrooms of lonely, fearful women, into the forbidden corners of a man's mind and soul. Why did 13 women open their doors willingly to this stranger? The Boston Strangler stars Tony Curtis in a powerful characterization unlike anything he has ever portrayed on the screen.
• 1:29
  Henry Fonda and George Kennedy. These things you see that come into your head and
• 1:34
  Trailer: you don't have anything to do about it, now is the time for you to try
• 1:37
  Pete Wright: to make some sense out of them. Face it. What did you see?
• 1:42
  Trailer: Woman's breasts. Who's? I don't know. A blouse came off in my hand. Albert, now now is the time.
• 1:51
  Go back.
• 1:52
  Pete Wright: I had never seen the Boston Strangler. Yeah. What a film.
• 1:56
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. I know.
• 1:58
  Pete Wright: I love it. Yeah. I I mean, I don't know why you've let me
• 2:02
  Pete Wright: never see this film. I
• 2:04
  Andy Nelson: was keeping it from you all this time because I knew eventually you would build this series.
• 2:08
  Pete Wright: Feels yeah. Feels like it.
• 2:10
  Andy Nelson: Can but before we talk about the movie, can you talk about, like, we're kicking off this series, the return to the 1968 crime film series with this film. What was it about returning to the 1968 crime films that, drew you in to pick the three films we're gonna be discussing?
• 2:26
  Pete Wright: Well, I liked the original 1968 crime films that we did. They're good movies. And and I I felt like this was a a list of movies that I haven't seen and that I just wanted I felt like we were in a good place to explore. You had seen, I think, all of them, which is
• 2:47
  Trailer: No.
• 2:48
  Andy Nelson: I've only seen this one.
• 2:50
  Trailer: I haven't
• 2:50
  Andy Nelson: seen the split or a Dandian Aspect.
• 2:53
  Pete Wright: Oh, well, that's that's great news. Actually, I take it back. I have seen a dandy in Aspect Aspect. But these just looked like really interesting casts. Boston Strangler, I was checking off a a movie that I knew I had to see.
• 3:05
  And so, course, that was gonna be on the list. I think you've mentioned it before in other conversations a number of times. It just felt like I gotta check this one off the list. The split looked fascinating. And so it just seemed like a nice way to jump back into an era that I'm quite fond of and a genre that is always satisfying.
• 3:24
  Andy Nelson: When when it's a movie with with, any of the Fondas, you're supposed to say a genre that I'm quite fond of.
• 3:30
  Pete Wright: That's another one. You just did another one. Members will will hear the fantastic definition Andy created in our preshow, and now he's got you've got a
• 3:40
  Andy Nelson: The second one.
• 3:41
  Pete Wright: A film I'm fond of. I'm really quite fond
• 3:44
  Pete Wright: of this film.
• 3:44
  Andy Nelson: Oh, I'm kinda quite fond of. Yep.
• 3:46
  Pete Wright: Yeah. It's it's the end of our broadcast year today, and this is gonna be
• 3:51
  Andy Nelson: the kind show that we do. Show. Yeah. Oh my goodness. But, yes, the Boston Strangler.
• 3:57
  This film is a fascinating one because based on a book written, after they presumably thought they caught the guy made in that same window of time before they really actually figured out the case. And to this day, it's still there still is some mystery about the realities of the actual Boston Strangler. And we'll talk about that a little bit, but I think I mean, for starters, just talking about this as a crime film. I mean, it's something that seems to hit you, hit you quite well. So initial thoughts, from you.
• 4:32
  Pete Wright: The way they presented, first of all, Tony Curtis's character, Tony Curtis plays Albert DeSalvo, the presumed in the world of the film, the presumed Boston strangler. The fact that we don't really get him until, I think, halfway through the film Yeah. Full hour. Right. Yeah.
• 4:48
  It's an extraordinary bit of restraint, and it builds a just a lot of pressure that needs to be released in the film because we do see crimes in sort of action, sort of. And and I think that just makes that that sort of level of curiosity and pressure build really satisfyingly. It also allows us to meet the law enforcement that is waged against this action, this this crime, this set of crimes, going through kind of the whole the whole cycle of acceptance for people who don't believe that it's connected, that there are connected crimes that suddenly start to become acclimated to the idea that it's connected crime. We bring in Henry Fonda, who's a a law professor, and he sort of starts to to help the the police come to an understanding that this is this is more than just what it seems. And so we do get enough focus up front that I think makes the reveal of the actual criminal in the film that much more satisfying.
• 5:55
  And, of course, of course, it's gonna be Murray Hamilton who's the skeptic at front at upfront. Like, of course, he is. He wanted to open the beaches. So I just found I just found it really, really compelling.
• 6:09
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. And, I mean, I I can't remember how long ago I first watched this, but it was a film that, you know, I I think that Richard Fleischer is often seen as a director who, you know, makes, I guess, I would say fun and interesting films, but not necessarily like the big award winners, you know, things like 20,000 leagues under the sea or violent Saturday or the Vikings. Ransomware. Yeah. And I there you go.
• 6:35
  Throw that in there. And I and so I think that I mean, there's a lot of genre stuff too, like mister majestic and the new centurions and Tora Tora Tora, but also has done some interesting crime films. And I think, like, we talked about him way early in the podcast when we talked about compulsion, which he did for the same studio. Also, this is another film with under the heading of, Richard Dzanik at the studio at the time. So he was
• 7:05
  Pete Wright: Oh, gotta put that in the tag it. Tag Exactly. Dzanik.
• 7:08
  Andy Nelson: So, you know, I think that there's something about Fleischer that even though when he's making his films, you may not see them as the big award winners, but they're awful fun. And I I I, you know, I always have fun watching his films. And I think because I enjoyed compulsion so much, I can't remember exactly what drew me to the Boston Strangler, but I just I when I watch this, I'm like, holy cow. Like, the way that he's playing with split screens throughout the film is fascinating to kind of build this story and give us so many perspectives, especially during the first part with the police investigation, and you see all the different pieces of the puzzle. Really, that's what it felt like.
• 7:48
  This was a puzzle that we're watching. But then to kind of continue the story, and you get to places where you have our man in charge, Bottomley, Henry Fonda's character, interviewing. He's sitting down and doing these, interviews over a period of time with DeSalvo. And you get that type of cinematic storytelling where they're talking in the room where things are happening. And then we flash to where DeSalvo is remembering the situation.
• 8:18
  Like, for example, sitting down and watching the JFK funeral. And then he's sitting down watching the JFK funeral, but he's responding to Bottomley. It now sitting in the chair watching the TV. And then you cut to the other angle, and now Henry Fonda is in the room talking to him. Like, you're seeing a cinematic way of crafting the story where the actual interview goes from the room itself to the location in the memory.
• 8:48
  And so it's like, he's now in the memory having that conversation. And that happens a number of times throughout this film. And I just I just remember when I first watched this, I was like, Fleischer really was doing such interesting things with the way that he constructed this story and crafted this story to really look at the police investigation, the psychology of what's going on with the killer, and just also just the the the process that he went through to actually kind of commit these crimes. And so you're getting so many different angles of the way that the story was was told. It's just it's a fascinating film and just one that I absolutely adore.
• 9:25
  Pete Wright: The other take on this is the media take. Well, I guess there are two more. The the media and sort of public hysteria angle, which is like the depicting the panic in the streets kind of a thing that that overtakes people, that there's this one person who is capable of creating such extraordinary fear in a community, I thought was
• 9:48
  Pete Wright: perfect. And then, you know,
• 9:51
  Pete Wright: we did a whole episode on sitting in the dark about home invasion movies. And what you sort of discover when you watch a whole bunch of home invasion movies is that, in fact, you think you're safe in your house. You really do. You think you're safe. And getting a stranger getting into your house is vastly easier than you would ever imagine it is.
• 10:17
  And there are any number of methods to get into your home. But unless you go full purge and really lock things down, it's hard to get it's easy to get into your house. And this movie showcases urban vulnerability in a super practical way. Like, he he has he's effortless in knocking on doors and getting into the houses of these victims. Effortless.
• 10:42
  And it's that part is terrifying. Before he lays a hand on them, it's terrifying just how easy and vulnerable these people's homes are.
• 10:50
  Andy Nelson: Well, and that's like, the this the way that he plays that is exactly because you keep having these detectives and bottomly and everyone like, why are these people letting this guy into their house? Like, these single women, what are they doing? But he just poses as like, you know, like the lady, the first time we really see him successful, he's, you know, he's knocking on the door saying,
• 11:15
  Pete Wright: you know, the the,
• 11:17
  Andy Nelson: landlord sent me here to check your toilets, to fix your plumbing. Yeah. She actually has a problem with her toilet, you know, and she, like, he and he's like, I you know, he just sent me today. I don't care if it's today or not, whatever. Like, he's so blase about it, and it plays so perfectly because he just doesn't seem the type who's desperate to get inside, and that's why it's so effective.
• 11:38
  All the way to the point where they're standing in front of the toilet, and she just happens to make the wrong move and walk past him that gives him the impetus to grab her from behind. And, yeah, it's just it's fascinating and horrifying to watch how it plays.
• 11:51
  Pete Wright: So sidebar, you I mean, you did you read up on where this the case is now?
• 11:57
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. I was I was trying to examine because there was a recent film that came out. We'll talk about all the different iterations of this story over the over the years. But, in 2023, last year, a film just called Boston Strangler came out with Keira Knightley, Carrie Coon, Alessandra Nivola, Chris Cooper, David Dostalmakian. Keira Knightley and Carrie Coon are both reporters.
• 12:20
  It's a story about them pursuing this and really kind of figuring it out, coining the name, the Boston Strangler. Like, they're really important in the case, And they figure out a lot of the puzzle pieces before the cops do. They continue investigating this after the cops kind of wash their hands and like, hey. Hey. We caught our guy.
• 12:41
  We're done. We don't have to worry about it anymore. And they are smart enough to kind of continue figuring out, no. We think it's actually multiple killers. And the way that the story went is DeSalvo does actually confess.
• 12:56
  There was a point where Keira Knightley's character was scheduled to actually, I think, have an interview with him in the hospital, and then he ends up getting killed. And so she never actually gets to have that interview, but she does find out that he had, at an earlier time, been in, an institution with two other guys, both of whom ended up doing some of the killings. And I think that's kind of what they've kind of figured out. They've never actually been able to finalize because I I can't remember if the people had died or they just never confessed or couldn't find the evidence, but it ended up being, I think, three different people who kind of over years ended up killing all these 13 different women. And what's interesting is that they did finally discover in 02/2013 that DeSalvo did in fact murder the very last one.
• 13:52
  There was DNA evidence linking him to that one particular case. So then that's theoretically, like, I don't know, three or four different people who potentially were involved in all of these different killings. But I mean, they actually were the ones who who connected it to some similar strangulation murders that had been happening in New York at the same time or a little bit earlier. But at the time, like, the this film came out, none of that had been discovered. Like, it wasn't until, I think, the early seventies, like, wanna say '73, '70 '4, when they actually started realizing, oh, there might actually be more people that had been involved in this.
• 14:34
  Pete Wright: Involved in this, but not as like a cabal
• 14:37
  Trailer: or
• 14:37
  Andy Nelson: a No.
• 14:38
  Pete Wright: No. Like random killings, people who are just getting on the on the bandwagon.
• 14:42
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Right. Because, oh, this is a way to kill people, and I can pin it on that other person, you know, or whatever the case may be. And interestingly, like, when they were in prison or in the institution with DeSalvo, they, I think, actually talked to him about the murders and everything. And somehow and I I can't remember the exact story, but somehow they kind of because I think that he was definitely had some struggles mentally, and they were able to kind of kind of convince him that he needed to confess to this, which is what what he ended up doing, which led to that long period of assuming that it was him.
• 15:20
  Pete Wright: I think Tony Curtis does a really interesting job of portraying that mental fragility. Right? Because in a movie where he's set up as a as a serial murderer, by the end to realize that there is a shred of sympathy that the audience should have for this guy, that's pretty powerful. Right? Like, he's damaged.
• 15:42
  He is a deeply damaged person. And, you know, how is it that once he is sort of captured, I'm thinking, wow. Well, he needs help. He needs some serious help. Yeah.
• 15:53
  Right? This is a it's an interesting portrayal of a complicated character who at the time was the best understanding that we could we could offer. You know?
• 16:01
  Andy Nelson: Right. To the point where they're like, in the film, they're assuming that he has a dissociative identity disorder and, like, that whole idea of this version of Albert that they're talking to doesn't have any idea what's going on with the killer Albert that has been committing these. And that's what's so fascinating when we get to those later scenes with Fonda interviewing him is how you start getting those fragmentary cuts. Right? Where you're just getting flashes, like the flash editing that you get of the mental state where it's it's you're really we're really put inside his head as he's starting to remember those things, but can't quite piece it together.
• 16:43
  Or the way that you start seeing like, yeah, I was fixing a pipe, and you see him literally fixing a pipe. But then he's like tying stuff around a pipe, and then he's tying stuff around a leg. Right? And and like the way you're intercutting that in his brain, it was such a perfect way to kind of give us a sense of what was actually going on in his head. Okay.
• 17:04
  So one of
• 17:05
  Pete Wright: the things you said is that we assumed that there was something that that he there was something wrong with him. Was that in the in the real story? Do you know if he he was diagnosed with DID? Is is that part of his legacy?
• 17:19
  Andy Nelson: I think that was something that they, they assumed in the film because they had gone through several periods of actually, like, hypnotizing him and trying to figure out, like, get him to do all of this. But I don't think I don't think that he ended up actually having dissociative identity disorder. I'm looking real quick to see because I think that I think that that was a an assumption that was
• 17:45
  Pete Wright: Like, how could he have done this if not?
• 17:47
  Andy Nelson: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Let me see if I can figure it out. No.
• 17:52
  You know, I I can't I can't I'm not finding anything as to whether he really was or not, but I I feel like that was something that they kind of used in context of the film. I feel like a lot of the forensic psychology with things like that was just new at the time, and they were finding ways to like, oh, this sounds interesting. Let's throw that in there. You know?
• 18:11
  Pete Wright: Well and that that leads to sort of the next assessment of the film, which is, like, it works. It's compelling. And I think Fonda's portrayal, as he, you know, interacts with this guy is is interesting, but it does feel cinematic. Right? It feels like we this is the way we're writing ourselves out of this of this knot that we've tied ourselves up in.
• 18:33
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. I did find that, yeah, he was never diagnosed with nor even suspected of. In this particular case, they say of multiple personality disorder. But, yeah. So they pretty much ruled that out in reality.
• 18:46
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Yeah. That's an interesting take
• 18:49
  Pete Wright: on the on the film, though. Like, how easy those assumptions are made about the guy to write the story when they're still living in the middle of this thing that has captured public consciousness.
• 19:00
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. It makes me wonder. Like, I I don't know much about the book that Gerald Frank wrote about this, but it does make me wonder, like, what was the research process that he came to with this? Because the the murders were '62 to '64, and he wrote the book in was it '66 was the book, I think? Yeah.
• 19:23
  Nineteen sixty six. So very soon after. And so I'm wondering, you know, what was he basing it on? Just the news, like the the the press and the and the police reports, or did he actually go in and do any interviewing?
• 19:38
  Pete Wright: Yeah. That's interesting. I you know, having not read the book, it just feels like a, you know, immediate sort of journalistic report on a story that just happened because he would have been writing the book for the year or two prior to anyway. So he was working on the case for a while.
• 19:53
  Andy Nelson: But Exactly.
• 19:55
  Pete Wright: The screenplay was adapted, I guess, by Edward Arnold. Arnold. Yeah. Who we've who wrote Beckett and, Jeremiah Johnson.
• 20:07
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Big big screenwriter. Lots of, lots of big films that that he wrote like, Panic in the Streets was another, fantastic one. The Young Lions. Yeah.
• 20:18
  Lots of lots of films at this particular period of time that were, pretty big.
• 20:22
  Pete Wright: Really big. Like, I to have, you know, I mean, 46 screenplay credits. That's a lot of screenplay credits.
• 20:29
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. And and a lot of them that you recognize. Yeah. Right? Yeah.
• 20:33
  Pete Wright: For sure. For sure. But but I, you know, I think that's a that's the, you know, the dance between the book and the screenplay. I think what he did, you know, in getting the words to screen is commendable because it it tells a really dramatic, fascinating story based on the information they had at the time. And, you you know, you can't fault it for getting it wrong.
• 20:56
  No. You know, when fifty years later, they get more information. That's incredible.
• 21:00
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's it is interesting. Well yeah. I mean, there's there's a couple interesting angles about it.
• 21:06
  One, I think that it's interesting that or I I I guess I I say I I think that it's interesting to see what Fleischer ended up doing with it paired with his his whole team camera editing, and everyone to kind of put the split screen aspect of it together. And I wonder, I don't think I read that any of that was actually in the script. So I think that Fleischer kind of came to that idea, which ends up meaning, essentially, a lot more different pieces of story that have to be put together and figured out for each of those different elements that we're seeing at any particular point in time.
• 21:39
  Pete Wright: The cast was fascinating, and I look at I look at George Kennedy. Can we just talk about George Kennedy? Good old George Kennedy. You know, George Kennedy has done a lot of stuff. Do you have a favorite George Kennedy?
• 21:52
  Andy Nelson: I I think I generally think of it's it's a terrible first choice to go to for him. But in general, the first place it's so sad that this is where I always go to with George Kennedy when I think of him. But it's Creepshow two, the story of the wooden Indian statue in his front of his little store that that, comes to life and kills all the the punks that, deface his place. That's the that's where my brain goes. Old chief
• 22:22
  Pete Wright: wooden head, Andy. Old chief wooden head.
• 22:25
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Yeah.
• 22:26
  Pete Wright: Not great. That's not a great No.
• 22:28
  Pete Wright: Thing.
• 22:28
  Andy Nelson: It's not. I got
• 22:28
  Pete Wright: a better one. I'm gonna replace it for you. Please. The naked gun from the files of police squad. Okay?
• 22:34
  Andy Nelson: Okay.
• 22:35
  Pete Wright: That's where I go immediately when I see Kennedy because and then watching this movie, he's playing that character. Just you take him out, you put Leslie Nielsen in there, and you have the naked gun because he was such a straight man in the naked gun movies.
• 22:51
  Andy Nelson: I mean, absurdist. He does play off of
• 22:55
  Pete Wright: Leslie Nielsen well, though. The guy has such an extraordinary career. Right? The gunfighters, Cool
• 23:02
  Andy Nelson: Hand Luke. Cool Hand Luke, that would be the serious one that I would say. For sure. That I think of. Yeah.
• 23:07
  Pete Wright: Yeah. I I I absolutely. And, you know, I mean, come on. The Delta Force and like, the guy, he's one of those faces that actually has a name and has been in a lot of movies through my career of movie watching that I've seen. I just love George Kennedy.
• 23:21
  He's such a such a lovable guy.
• 23:24
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. He was always always great in whatever whatever he ended up in. I just generally generally enjoyed seeing him perform.
• 23:32
  Pete Wright: There's a funny dance that that George Kennedy gets to do. Right? Because he did, like, Airport 70 9, and then they landed in He
• 23:40
  Andy Nelson: was in oh, he was in visit '77 and
• 23:42
  Pete Wright: '79. Yeah. Yeah. Concord.
• 23:44
  Andy Nelson: And '75.
• 23:44
  Pete Wright: He was
• 23:45
  Trailer: in all of them.
• 23:45
  Pete Wright: He was in all of the airport movies. He did the airport movies.
• 23:48
  Andy Nelson: Yeah.
• 23:48
  Pete Wright: And then they do the airplane movies. He wasn't in the airplane movies. But the Sirius franchise and then the goofy franchise. And then he was in this and then the naked gun. Right?
• 24:01
  Like, it just feels like he's he's one of those actors that gets to that gets to be a part of both sides of the lampoon conversation, and I love it.
• 24:09
  Andy Nelson: That's funny.
• 24:09
  Pete Wright: I love that he's so good at both.
• 24:11
  Andy Nelson: He is. He really is. We'll get to talk about him again later this season when we talk about straight jacket because he pops up in that. Absolutely. Yeah.
• 24:18
  The cast I mean, Tony Curtis I just wanna go back to Tony Curtis just for a minute because I love that Tony Curtis feels so different here. You know? He was actually Fleischer thought of him. He was trying to come up with somebody who could carry the role, but also was enough of a name for the studio. He thought of Curtis and initially, Zanuck was like, no.
• 24:41
  He's, you know, he's not somebody that, because he at this particular point in time, Tony Curtis, even though he had done serious films like the Defiant Ones and stuff, people generally thought of him as an actor who was doing kind of the romantic comedies and the the just the silly comedies and stuff. They weren't thinking of him as somebody who was a serious actor anymore. He'd kind of, as far as their they were concerned, had kind of passed that point in his career and was just doing the silly movies now. And so Xanax was like, no. That makes no sense.
• 25:13
  But Curtis really wanted it, and Fleischer really wanted him. And so Curtis did a little screen screen test. They were talking about this. And so Curtis put some, putty on his nose to kind of bulk it up a little bit. He permed his hair, and he just kind of he had I think that they basically took some photos of him just kind of like a little more serious and rugged looking photos.
• 25:40
  And Fleischer sent them over to Zanuck, and Zanuck didn't even recognize that it was Tony Curtis. But was just like, this guy has an interesting thing going on. I I like the look, the presence, and everything. Let's go with him. And it was Tony Curtis.
• 25:54
  And so I think that's a really funny story. And Curtis was, like, even during production, everybody essentially thought that he was not going to be able to carry the film to the extent that remember the scene when he's running from the guy who, he he pops in on the place following the lady without realizing the husband's home? Yeah. And the husband follows him all the way out to the street, and he gets hit by a car. Tony Curtis, like, actually, like, you know, there's that scene where the little VW bug comes out, hits him.
• 26:27
  He tumbles into the road. He broke his nose during that. And the reporters all were like, oh, that's it for sure. He's gonna get fired now. Like, they started, like, totally writing him off.
• 26:39
  Like, no. He's just he's done. Wow. Like, they really could not believe that this guy would be able to do this part. And I just it's so funny.
• 26:49
  Like, that whole story and and then to see what he actually delivers here, like, I mean, he put on some weight. He said that he he wore, like, extra weights around his waist so that he carried himself differently. And I think that it's just a kind of
• 27:03
  Pete Wright: a
• 27:04
  Andy Nelson: transformative performance for him from the elements where you're seeing him committing the crimes all the way to the psychology and the interviews and everything. Like, I think this is a this is one of those moments I think Oscar really got it wrong. And and, I mean, at the very least, he should have been nominated for his performance. But, I mean, in a year of, you know, some great performances, Peter O'Toole, Lion in Winter, certainly a big bombastic performance, I think Curtis absolutely should have been there and possibly won.
• 27:30
  Pete Wright: I do too. He's he is, he's able to make himself so big and so small in this movie where, you know, the frailty that comes across when he doesn't know what his brain is doing at the end is so clear, and he feels so small to me. But when he's standing in these apartments, he's a giant. He's larger than life, and, you know, he just just all in the way he carries himself. I think it was a fantastic performance.
• 27:53
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. And just I mean, he's terrifying, and it also like, you can't help but feel a little sad for him in the confusion that he's feeling later in trying to piece all of this stuff together. And it's it's it's just kind of sad, especially, like, when he's talking to his wife who's just like, look, I'm I'm trying to support you. I'm trying to help you. And his brain just can't get there to the point where he eventually is, like, putting his hands on his wife's neck and everything.
• 28:19
  It's like I don't I just I loved his performance here. It just is for me, it's the it's it's the best that Tony Curtis has done in a career of lots of great lots of great films.
• 28:29
  Pete Wright: Such great films. Yeah. What a what a legacy.
• 28:33
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Henry Fonda is always great. I think that he does a great job as as the as the cop. It's funny because every time I start this movie, his voice never sounds right, and I'm convinced that for for, like, the first few scenes that he had a really bad cold because he just sounds his voice doesn't sound right through a big chunk of it. That's weird.
• 28:54
  I know. It's very funny.
• 28:55
  Pete Wright: I don't I didn't notice. I should watch again.
• 28:57
  Andy Nelson: I always notice, like, when actors sound different. Like, there's a moment in Forrest Gump where Tom Hanks is playing ping pong, and the one of the military guys comes in and says, you're done. You can go home. And and he's and all you hear from him is a few lines like, yes, drill sergeant, stuff like that.
• 29:11
  Pete Wright: Yeah.
• 29:11
  Andy Nelson: Totally sounds sick. Like, I'm convinced that that that Tom Hanks had a bad cold that day.
• 29:17
  Pete Wright: I mean, we'll never know. I doubt Tom even if Tom were here right now, if we could ask him, I bet he wouldn't even remember. But it does seem like a weird superpower that just you would have. Right?
• 29:42
  Andy Nelson: Sally Sally Kellerman, shows up her first feature film as Diane Clooney, a a kind of a mashed up, amalgam of a few characters as the one woman who he attacks and then she kind of gets the better the better of him and and manages to survive. How
• 30:00
  Pete Wright: did she play for you? Well, I didn't I didn't recognize her until I looked at credits and realized that she was hot lips. Yeah. I didn't I didn't even recognize her in the film. She was just at a at an age, look, era I didn't even catch.
• 30:15
  And I thought that was awesome. I liked her a lot. I think it was I think it's the one, you know, fight, the one escape that we get, and it was satisfying. It hit all the right notes. I I mean, I have I think she was she was great at being scared and taken and legitimate.
• 30:37
  Yeah. I mean, I she it's it's kind of a a I don't know. It's a little bit of a thankless role in a movie about the serial killer, not the survivor, but it was fun to see her.
• 30:46
  Andy Nelson: Well, it's interesting the way that the survivor is portrayed here as somebody who also is so psychologically damaged from the encounter that when she is given the opportunity to come into the room and view through the glass to see him, she's like, I don't recognize him. Like, I I know you're wanting me to say that that's him, but I just can't I can't put it together. Even when when, George Kennedy points out, but look at the bite on his hand. Like, that's where you bit him. She's like, when I look at that, I feel scared a little bit, but I still just can't piece it together.
• 31:20
  Like, it's just fascinating the psychology you're getting here. And I think that also is what am I trying to say? They're they're definitely playing with truth as far as some of the way that that played because I don't believe that I think that she actually was able to identify him when the real woman survived.
• 31:40
  Pete Wright: Interesting. Yeah. Well, it works in the movie for the sake of the fictionalized tale. It it it plays.
• 31:49
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Definitely does. Yeah. She's it's just it's great to see her in this. I I enjoy her.
• 31:54
  And, you know, you see a lot of other little faces. Like, you already mentioned Murray Hamilton, but you also have William Hickey as, the one guy who they think that is their guy, but turns out not to be. Dana Elkar is one of the guys. Like, it's it's just fun seeing a lot of these faces as younger younger actors at this particular period.
• 32:14
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Yeah. It's fun. I mean, it's it's this is a great movie full of great faces, and, and I think it tells a a compelling story as a deluded individual, a fictionalized version of the serial killer faces reality of his actions.
• 32:32
  Andy Nelson: I think that's the that's the hidden story here that works. There definitely is period elements that do make it feel a little grosser. It just reminds you how much of the time it is, like the way that they refer to the African American woman who is when she gets killed, the the whole angle of the the gay person, the kind of figuring out is that the gay people, and there's definitely some language that they say here that's very much of the period. But largely, I think they do a good job with with it in general.
• 33:04
  Pete Wright: Yeah.
• 33:05
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. Interesting element that I am curious about. When this movie came out, critics were pretty harsh on it saying that this is something that Roger Ebert said. The Boston Strangler requires a judgment not only on the quality of the film, very good, but also on its moral and ethical implications. The events described in Frank's book have been altered considerably in the film.
• 33:32
  This is essentially a work of fiction based on the real events and based on them in such a way to entertain us, which it does, but for the wrong reasons, I believe. This film, which was made so well, should not have been made at all. Fascinating. That's definitely an angle that came with a lot of the critics that at this particular point in time for a 1968 film where they felt it's too graphic for for us to be watching in the theaters and for us to be watching as entertainment. What is how does that strike you?
• 34:06
  Pete Wright: Well, okay. So I I don't know about the graphic nature of it. Right? Like, I don't know about I don't know that I can comment on that. Maybe it's because I'm desensitized just enough.
• 34:16
  This movie didn't feel terribly graphic to me. What is interesting to me though, and this I can directly relate to, is that this movie was made in a time where people knew the story and had been following the news. And it was made over the course of a couple of of a year, let's say, when news was actually happening and updating the story that was still current before the movie came out. So I can see someone like Roger Ebert, a well read guy in the media business, knowing more about the story than the film portrays. And I can see that being very frustrating.
• 34:54
  And I run into that too. You know? I when the Steve Jobs movie came out, I was a noted antagonist. It's a good movie, and it tells bad stories about Social network. The social the same thing.
• 35:08
  Good movie tells bad stories in many cases that and and so the I can I can absolutely relate to that? And I think that's one of the interesting sort of sins of the legacy of this movie is that I watched this movie having not known much about the the real story of the Boston Strangler. And had I not started reading up on it and have a conversation with you about it, I would assume this is largely true. Yeah. Right?
• 35:35
  Right. But it's still a movie. And judged as a movie, it plays. I wonder, did Ebert ever update his opinion on that? Is this one of his legendarily or legendary retractions?
• 35:48
  Andy Nelson: You know, I don't know. I I haven't, looked for any any revised comments from him. I but I do find it interesting because I think when you have a story that is current and you have a a film based on it that feels like we're watching a killer kill people who just got killed a couple years ago. Like, I can see, at the time, people feeling like this is too real. This is too close.
• 36:14
  This is too, you know, too soon. And especially when we're really watching him kind of get into these places and kill these people. Like, you can see that reaction. And maybe just with time with time, like, we're so far separated from the reality of the Boston Strangler that it's just I mean, it just plays as a movie, and, you know, it's it's it's interesting to watch. Also, I think we have been so much more accustomed to much more gruesome killings and brutality in film over the sixty years, you know, from this time of this film that I think for us, it's just not even as, it's it's fairly tame compared to stuff we've seen.
• 36:59
  And so it just doesn't it doesn't carry the same weight that it probably did for people in 1968 watching this and going, oh my god. This is what literally just happened, like, couple years ago.
• 37:10
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Right.
• 37:11
  Pete Wright: Yeah. I'm I can't it's, hold on a second. This is this is one of my favorite things, and I suddenly am blanking on what it's actually called. But it's a Michael Crichton term, gel man amnesia. Right?
• 37:25
  Which was coined by Murray Gell Mann, who's a friend of Michael Crichton's, and, it tells the story of how you open up the newspaper to an article on a subject you know well. In Murray Gell Mann's case, it's physics. In Michael Crichton's case, it's show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong, it actually presents the story backward, reversing cause and effect.
• 37:53
  I call these the wet streets cause rain stories, papers full of them. In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in the story, and then you turn the page to national or international affairs and read it as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page and forget what you know. That, I think, is what is exactly what we we see in movies all the time, which is when you see something that you know well, it's easy to get upset. It's it's the Steve Jobs.
• 38:27
  It's the Facebook. It's those stories that, you know, that we know well and get frustrated. When I watch this one, it's gel man amnesia. I don't know anything about the story, so I make assumptions.
• 38:37
  Andy Nelson: Well, and to that point, like, when you watch the actual the new version, the Keira Knightley, version from 2023, like, that film is kind of a snooze. It's not a great movie. It's interesting because it gives you a much more full picture of the actual case, you know, taking, you know, everything that they have learned all the way through the DNA discovery in 2013. Like, you're you're able to actually tell a full story of everything that they have kind of figured out up to this point with the Boston Strangler. But it just didn't make for a very exciting film.
• 39:13
  And, you know, I don't know if it's a screenplay or the director. I'm not exactly sure, but it just was it it wasn't a movie. Like, this is a movie. Like, this is cinema. Like, this is cinematic.
• 39:24
  The way that Fleischer constructs the story and edits the story and crafts the story and tell and chooses where to tell particular pieces of the story and and build that room like that whole final room, the interview room in the prison. Over the course of all the interviews, they're slowly removing pieces of furniture. Every time we come into the room, there's less and less furniture. So by the time we're finally seeing that last shot of him, it's just him in an empty white room, and essentially, like, he's lost in his own mind by that point. It's fascinating.
• 39:53
  Purely cinematic.
• 39:55
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Right? Exceptionally cinematic.
• 39:57
  Andy Nelson: And that's what I think Fleischer is doing here. And, yeah, this is, you know, the social network of the Boston Strangler story. We're not getting the real kind of sense of what actually happened, but it is such a incredible piece of filmmaking that is just I don't know. For me, it's just hard to, hard to pass up.
• 40:14
  Pete Wright: Yeah. It's like we'll never know what really happened in Hogwarts, just the propaganda that they shut down our throats.
• 40:20
  Andy Nelson: Exactly. I'm glad you brought that in. Always important to circle around to that.
• 40:28
  Pete Wright: We'll never know. Hashtag remember Hogwarts.
• 40:31
  Andy Nelson: That's right. That's right. Alright. Well, we'll be right back. But first, our credits.
• 40:48
  Pete Wright: The next reel is a production of True Story FM, engineering by Andy Nelson, music by Eli Benicott, Ido K, Rotem Cinnamon, Oriole Novella, and Eli Catlin. Andy usually finds all the stats for the awards and numbers at v-numbers.com, box office mojo Com, I m d b Com, and wikipedia.org. Find the show at truestory.fm. And if your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.
• 41:29
  Pete Wright: This case, it's a tough one. The victim, your free time. The culprit, endless scrolling, algorithmic nightmares, and ads. Yeah. You heard me.
• 41:43
  Ads. But I'm on the case. I've been following the breadcrumbs, sifting through the digital debris, and I think I finally cracked it. It started with a whisper of a place called Letterboxd. They said it was ad free.
• 41:58
  Could be true. My sources tell me they offer personalized stats pages, annual, all time, like a fingerprint of your movie watching habits. They said it could track films from your watch list across any streaming service you could think of, Netflix, Hulu, HBO Max, Criterion Channel, even to be. Imagine knowing exactly when that obscure noir finally hits your preferred platform. Yeah.
• 42:26
  Yeah. The press is hounding me. They want answers. They want the scoop. Fine.
• 42:30
  Here's what I got. Letterbox lets you see your friends' average ratings, helps you separate the cinephiles from the, well, you know, the trash, tracks the films you own. I mean, it's like the olden days. Filters your activity feed, pins content to your profile, duplicates lists, manages tags, the works. It's a lot.
• 42:54
  But here's a real kicker, the evidence that blows this whole case wide open. For a limited time, you can get 20% off a Letterboxd subscription. 20%. The code? Write this down.
• 43:09
  Nextreal. That's n e x t r e e l. Use it at sign up. Consider it your get out of jail free card. Your escape from the algorithm.
• 43:21
  Case closed. Now if you'll excuse me, I have date with the third man. Wink.
• 43:32
  Pete Wright: Andy, sequels and remakes. What do we I mean, I have a lot to watch is what it sounds like.
• 43:39
  Andy Nelson: Well, yeah. I mean, we're not getting sequels and remakes to this particular film, but there's, you know, a lot of different iterations of the story that have since come.
• 43:50
  Pete Wright: It's a sequel to the truth, Andy.
• 43:51
  Andy Nelson: It's a sequel to the truth. There you go. Actually, before this, there was a 1964 film called The Strangler inspired by, at the time, the unsolved killings. Then William Goldman wrote a novel the same year, No Way to Treat a Lady, and along with its film adaptation came out the same year, both inspired by the multiple cure killer theories of this story. Then in 02/2008, there was a film, The Boston Strangler, the untold story that was made.
• 44:17
  In 2010, there was a TV movie called The Front that was about a detective who reopens a case about a murder of a woman who might have actually been the very first victim of the Boston Strangler, and that plot suggests DeSalvo was not the only perpetrator of the of the Boston murders. And then, as I said, there was the 2023 Boston Strangler film that had been made. So a lot of different, iterations of this story, and and that's just like the the real versions of the story. There are also a lot of different things like the Boston Strangler as a character pops up in American Gothic, the TV show at a particular point in time. So it's like there's a lot of different times that just the character ends up showing up in things.
• 45:00
  Pete Wright: Yeah. Like Hogwarts. How did you in the at award season? Did it get anything?
• 45:05
  Andy Nelson: Well, I already talked about the irritation, at the Oscars. And actually, it was I can't remember. Was the movie Charlie that ended up winning. I know we talked about that when we talked Line in Winter. But anyway, it did get three nominations at the American Cinema Editors' Eddie Awards.
• 45:21
  It was nominated for best edited feature film, but lost a bullet, which, I mean, is often talked about specifically for its editing. So I guess that makes sense. But I don't know. After revisiting this, I feel like the way that they chose to craft this story with the split screens and everything, I think.
• 45:37
  Pete Wright: Does does Bullet use split screen in anything?
• 45:39
  Andy Nelson: Don't believe so. I think it's just the
• 45:41
  Pete Wright: The chase is straight presented straightforward.
• 45:43
  Andy Nelson: Right? Yeah.
• 45:44
  Pete Wright: I because it should. They should recut that with split screen. That'd be cool.
• 45:49
  Andy Nelson: At the Edgar Allan Poe Awards, which are writing awards, the script was nominated for best feature film but lost to Bullet. And at the Golden Globes, this is where Tony Curtis at least did get a nomination for best actress in a drama, but here he lost to Peter O'Toole in the line in winter.
• 46:03
  Pete Wright: You said best actress in a drama.
• 46:06
  Andy Nelson: Did I say best actress? Best actor in a drama.
• 46:09
  Pete Wright: Leave it in. Leave it in.
• 46:12
  Pete Wright: How did it do at the box office? Did it make any money?
• 46:20
  Andy Nelson: Well, Fleischer had a nice budget of 4,100,000.0 for this or 37,300,000 in today's dollars. The movie opened 10/16/1968 and did quite well for itself, going on to earn 17,800,000.0 at the box office or 162,000,000 in today's dollars. All told, it ended up doing really well despite some mixed reviews, landing with an adjusted profit per finished minute of just over a million dollars.
• 46:44
  Pete Wright: Say. Pretty good. A million dollars in this economy? Per finished minute. Standing.
• 46:52
  Nice. Take it. Nice job, team. Yeah. There you go.
• 46:54
  Pete Wright: I hope they're listening.
• 46:56
  Pete Wright: Well, I I'm really glad we got a chance to watch it. I can't wait to hear what you end up doing with your letterbox review for it.
• 47:03
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. It's just a film that I really enjoy. In fact, when I watched Boston Strangler, the twenty twenty three one, I instantly had to put this one on to, to cleanse my palate and watch something a little more cinematic and interesting. So, great film. Definitely worth checking out.
• 47:17
  So Yeah. High on my list.
• 47:19
  Pete Wright: Yep. Perfect.
• 47:20
  Andy Nelson: We'll be right back for our ratings. But first, here's the trailer for next week's movie, Gordon Fleming's The Split.
• 47:34
  Trailer: There's 80,000 seats in the place. And that's a lot of money. Jim Brown is McClain, a dark horse with a bright idea. 1 half a million, split six ways.
• 48:06
  Pete Wright: I don't like who I'm working with.
• 48:08
  Trailer: Either they're all locked in or none of us are. In McLean's violent underworld, they judge a man by the color of the money he steals.
• 48:25
  Trailer: Don't you know it's just a game? So make believe that this is real love.
• 48:40
  Trailer: You have the whole world to mess up. Why me? You're on the spot, boy. Oh, there were no names, but a style that was unmistakable. They were having the time
• 49:03
  Pete Wright: of their
• 49:04
  Trailer: lives until it came time for the split. What are you guys tied up for? Some kind of fiftyfifty splitty? Convent me you didn't set it up. I want my money, McClain.
• 49:18
  You busted in the wrong place this time, buddy. He'll kill you. I won McClain.
• 49:57
  Andy Nelson: The human mind is a complex and often disturbing labyrinth. As a student of criminal psychology, I've spent countless hours delving into the darkest recesses of the psyche, trying to understand what drives a person to commit the most heinous of acts. But there's one case that has always haunted me, one that I've never been able to fully unravel, the mystery of why some people have not yet joined the Next Real's membership program. It's a puzzling case, one that defies all logical explanation. The evidence is clear, the facts irrefutable.
• 50:29
  The next reel offers an unparalleled cinematic experience, a deep dive into the world of film that is both intellectually stimulating and emotionally gripping. Their team of expert analyzes dissects each movie with the precision of a surgeon, laying bare the hidden themes, the subtle nuances, the psychological underpinnings that make great cinema so powerful. It's a masterclass in film appreciation, one that no true cinephile should miss. And yet, despite all of this, there are still those who hesitate, who resist the pull of this incredible opportunity. It's a mystery that keeps me up at night, pouring over the clues, trying to understand the twisted workings of the criminal mind.
• 51:09
  But you, my friend, you have a chance to break free from this cycle of cinematic deprivation. By joining the Next Reels membership program, you can gain access to a wealth of exclusive content, ad free episodes, and extended editions that will take your film knowledge to the next level. It's a simple choice, really. For just $5 a month or $55 a year, you can unlock the secrets of cinema, explore the depths of the human psyche, and join a community of like minded individuals who share your passion for film. The clues are all there.
• 51:39
  The evidence is overwhelming. The only question that remains is this. Will you join us in this psychological investigation, or will you remain a cinematic bystander forever haunted by the mysteries of the silver screen? The choice is yours. But if you're ready to take the plunge, if you're ready to explore the darkest corners of the cinematic mind, then head over to truestory.fm/join and join the next reels membership program today.
• 52:04
  Because in the end, the only way to truly understand the criminal mind is to immerse yourself in it, to let it consume you, to become one with the darkness. And that, my friend, is exactly what the Next Real offers. So don't wait. Don't let this opportunity slip through your fingers. Join us, and together, we'll unravel the mysteries of cinema one twisted psyche at a time.
• 52:26
  Truestory.fm/join, the key to unlocking the secrets of the cinematic mind. Join us before it's too late.
• 52:41
  Pete Wright: Letterbox, Tandy. Letterbox. You know Letterbox.com/thenextreal. That's where you can find our HQ page, and I'm dying to know, just dying to know how many stars and hearts this movie gets for you.
• 52:54
  Andy Nelson: I have long had it at four and a half stars and a heart on my letterbox, and I'm not sure why it's four and a half and not just five. Like, I don't know where the where I thought the half star was lost. It could be in some of the way that, there are some dated elements with it, you know. But honestly, I think, on this watch, I think it's just up to a five stars in a heart for me.
• 53:17
  Pete Wright: There's there's no question. It's five star heart movie.
• 53:21
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. It's fantastic.
• 53:23
  Pete Wright: What does that average to, Andy? That averages actually
• 53:26
  Andy Nelson: to five stars in a heart, believe it or not, which you can find over on our account on Letterbox at the next reel. You can find me there at Soda Creek Film, and you can find Pete there at Pete Wright. So what did you think about the Boston Strangler? We would love to hear your thoughts. Hop into the ShowTalk channel over in our Discord community where we will be talking about the movie this week.
• 53:43
  When the movie ends Our conversation begins. Letterbox giveth Andy. Does Letterboxd always doeth?
• 54:04
  Pete Wright: Alright. What do you got? There's it it was a hard choice.
• 54:08
  Andy Nelson: It was a hard choice. Yeah. A lot of long reviews, just series
• 54:10
  Pete Wright: of So long.
• 54:11
  Andy Nelson: One's having fun in their reviews of this film. I know. Or they just don't hate or they hate it. That's the other problem. I went with iWatch who has no stars or hearts.
• 54:21
  It's just a review. Here we go. Okay. Fascinating factoid? Fictoid?
• 54:27
  Flick. What I liked. The split screens, controlled, intelligent, focused. The ending, white out, silence, powerful, effective. Tony Curtis.
• 54:36
  Finally acting. He's very good in this. My only nitpick is his hands. Soft with manicured nails. No furniture repairman has hands like this.
• 54:44
  What I didn't like so much. Henry Fonda. Eternally Henry Fonda. Such a juxtaposition with George Kennedy, like the old Hollywood versus the new. George, while always being George is a natural, I believe in him.
• 54:55
  Henry? Nah. There's a shot of the two of them walking away. Backs turned to the camera. George is walking.
• 55:00
  Henry is Henry Ying. Where's car where where's Carl Mauldin when you need him?
• 55:08
  Pete Wright: That's good. Henry is Henrying.
• 55:10
  Andy Nelson: Yeah. He's Henrying. Wow.
• 55:13
  Pete Wright: Well, I've got one from Adam that is a three star and a heart. Three star and a heart, Adam says, and I'm gonna do my best to do it justice. Boring. I couldn't care. Oh, wow.
• 55:28
  You're so cool for using split screens in your movie. Rolling eyes emoji. That's it. I like that it's boring. I it is.
• 55:39
  It's boring. I can't tell if Adam liked it or not at three stars in a heart. He put it at it's that equates to a six star in IMDb. It's watchable.
• 55:47
  Andy Nelson: And yet it's boring. Boring. It's he's been boringed. He's been boringed. Maybe a boring boringed into his brain.
• 55:55
  Oh,
• 55:56
  Pete Wright: well, like, he can't let it go now.
• 55:58
  Andy Nelson: Yeah.
• 55:59
  Pete Wright: Yeah.
• 56:00
  Andy Nelson: I'm gonna go with that.
• 56:01
  Pete Wright: Me too. Thanks, Letterboxd.