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Bill & Kristi Gaultiere on Emotional Health, Empathy, and Sustainable Ministry · Future Christian

• 0:00
  Loren Richmond Jr (00:41)
• 0:04
  Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today, Lauren Richmond Jr. is in conversation with Bill and Christy Gaultiere Bill is a psychologist and ordained pastor, and Christy is a licensed professional counselor. Together, they lead Soul Shepherding, which is a nonprofit ministry to help pastors, leaders, churches, and others to go deeper with Jesus in emotional health and loving leadership. They lead immersive retreats that integrate Jesus-centered psychology and spiritual formation.
• 0:08
  Participants have the option to earn a certificate in spiritual direction to improve their relationship skills and earn side income as a spiritual director or coach. They are authors of a number of SoulCare books, including Journey of the Soul, which was number one on Amazon in Christian counseling, along with Healthy Feelings, Thriving Faith. Their newest book is Deeply Loved, Receiving and Reflecting God's Great Empathy for You.
• 0:12
  A reminder before we start today's conversation, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a review, and share Future Christian with a friend. Connect with Lauren, Martha, and Future Christian on Instagram. Shoot us an email at lauren at resonatemediapro.com with comments, questions, or ideas for future episodes. Your support means a lot to us in making this podcast possible.
• 0:16
  Loren Richmond Jr (02:14)
• 0:20
  Hello and welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren Richmond Jr. and today I am pleased to be joined by Bill and Christy Gaultiere Hello and welcome to the show.
• 0:24
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (02:24)
• 0:28
  a learn thank you so much for were blessed to be in conversation you and all your listeners
• 0:32
  Loren Richmond Jr (02:30)
• 0:36
  Yeah, looking forward to having this conversation. Glad y'all could make it. ⁓ Anything else y'all want to say about yourselves before we get started?
• 0:40
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (02:40)
• 0:44
  Well, we're so thankful that the Lord led us to start the ministry of soul shepherding and we help all kinds of pastors and missionaries, spiritual directors, and others who are seeking to go deeper with Jesus and emotional health and loving leadership. It's really a joy for us to get to partner with people who are doing God's work, serving on the front lines.
• 0:48
  Loren Richmond Jr (03:01)
• 0:52
  Awesome, Why don't we begin with this? Share if you would, your faith journeys, what that's looked like in the past and what that looks like today.
• 0:56
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (03:11)
• 1:00
  Well, we both were blessed to be raised by Christians who loved the Lord, took us to church early on to be raised in the church and benefited greatly from that. And then to be discipled along the way. We did hit our own rough spots along our journey, times when we encountered doubt, times when we encountered times of trial, times of discouragement, times of really needing to press in deeper to
• 1:04
  What do we really believe and why? And personally, is that for us or is this just what we've been taught? And it's been such an important and good journey for us each personally. And then we've been so blessed to have the privilege of being able to enter into others' journeys over the years and have spent hundreds of thousands of hours in the pool of pain with people. First as psychotherapists in private practice. Bill and I have our doctorates in psychology.
• 1:08
  Loren Richmond Jr (03:45)
• 1:12
  Hmm.
• 1:16
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (04:08)
• 1:20
  private practice for many years and then later taking out of the office, the small office of private practice and getting to journey more widely through our ministry of soul shepherding and the people that come on retreat with us and then in our ministry of spiritual direction and training spiritual directors. And so it's been so exciting that God always has more for us. We can always know Him more and we can always grow in health and wholeness and holiness.
• 1:24
  Loren Richmond Jr (04:37)
• 1:28
  Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Bill, anything else you want to add there?
• 1:32
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (04:41)
• 1:36
  Yeah, well, I think, you know, my experience early on.
• 1:40
  was a lot about believe and do you know believe the right things and do the right things and certainly our doctrines are important and we live by God's Word and our actions are the bottom line of our life but you know we're not just like a brain on a stick it's not just we're not just heads we're living souls the Bible teaches us so we have emotions and we're relational and we have a heart that makes decisions and we're embodied and so really getting to understand the deeper person
• 1:44
  Loren Richmond Jr (04:50)
• 1:48
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:52
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (05:16)
• 1:56
  significant part of the journey for each of us and a real pivot for me in my own Christian faith journey was college when I was studying Christian psychology.
• 2:00
  And I met with my psychology professor. I was her teacher's aide. And I was looking forward to learning from her because she was not only a book smart person that had the degrees and all that in psychology, but she was also a Christian counselor. And so I said to her, know, Kara, tell me about being a Christian therapist. I want to learn from you. And she says, Bill, we can get to that later. Let's start with you. How are you? How are you feeling?
• 2:04
  Loren Richmond Jr (05:49)
• 2:08
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:12
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (05:53)
• 2:16
  I was like a deer caught in headlights. I didn't know what I was feeling. I want to say, how are you feeling?
• 2:20
  Because that's what I was used to. When I was a kid, I could tell you what my mom felt, my younger brothers and sisters. But I was always being good, doing the right thing, believing the right things. And so I didn't, I wasn't really tuning into my deeper inner self, my emotions, my heart, my soul. And so Kara says to me, well, just talk to me about what you're doing and what you're thinking. Well, I have a lot say about that stuff because I was thinking about all kinds of things and very busy. And as I talked with her about my life, she would say, well, it sounds
• 2:24
  like you're feeling stressed. Well, yeah, I have been.
• 2:28
  really busy, been a lot of pressure and then she'd listen some more and she'd say, well, maybe you're feeling anxious. What are you sensing in your body? like, well, yeah, I had some fluttering in my stomach and that's called anxiety. So she would feel my emotions before I did and that helped me learn the language of emotions and this helped me connect with God in a deeper way. And it opened up the Bible to be a whole new book for me in a sense because I was a
• 2:32
  Loren Richmond Jr (06:53)
• 2:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 2:40
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (07:03)
• 2:44
  approaching it from a different place, increasingly I was more aware of my emotions, my needs, also my sins that I needed to confess. And so this opened me up for a journey of a deepening life with Jesus. And this is really the heart of our soul shepherding ministry, in that we help people to go deeper in their life with the Lord.
• 2:48
  Loren Richmond Jr (07:25)
• 2:52
  You've said a few things already that I want to highlight, talking about...
• 2:56
  being aware of your emotions, how, at least as I heard it, how those emotions can get in the way of our relationship with God from our perspective. I'm curious, one of the questions I always ask guests is about spiritual practices or spiritual disciplines. I'm curious how, whether if you all want to answer from yourself's point of view or more broadly speaking, how emotions can get in the way of our spiritual practices or acts of devotion to God.
• 3:00
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (08:00)
• 3:04
  Well, our emotions can get in the way if we are servants of our emotions. One of the things that we want to realize is that emotions make great servants, but terrible masters. But that's the same with thoughts, too. Both emotions and thoughts are gifts that God has given us. They're both forms of intelligence. They're both forms of information.
• 3:08
  Loren Richmond Jr (08:05)
• 3:12
  Hmm.
• 3:16
  Hmm. Hmm. Right.
• 3:20
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (08:26)
• 3:24
  So we want to make sure that we're not mastered by either of them, that we're not obeying either of them, that we're not exalting either of them to places of God in our life, but that actually both help us in our relationship with God, in connecting with God, in knowing God, in our bonding with God, in our discipleship to Jesus. And so one of the practices that we write about in Deeply Loved is this practice of
• 3:28
  Being able to receive God's empathy for us emotionally, to let Him find us, the lost child in us, the parts of us that haven't been known, the parts of us that are in hiding, the parts of us that feel uneligible to be loved. And so as we can get emotionally honest with ourself and with God and with an ambassador of God, it really can fuel our intimacy with Jesus, our emotional health and healthy relationship.
• 3:32
  Loren Richmond Jr (08:57)
• 3:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 3:40
  Yeah, great points there. Well, you've brought the book here, so let's jump into it. ⁓ Bill and Christy are the authors of the book, Deeply Loved, Receiving and Reflecting God's Great Empathy for You. And I suppose I want to ask with this perhaps cliche, but I think somewhat relevant question because it's gotten a bad rap, certainly in some Christian circles of empathy. So do you want to talk about maybe
• 3:44
  what empathy is and what is not and why that distinction is important.
• 3:48
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (09:57)
• 3:52
  Well, empathy is not coddling. It's not fragilizing people. It's not pitying people. It's not rescuing people or just enabling them to do whatever they want and validating selfishness. Empathy is seeking to understand someone's emotions and also their thoughts and their experiences to help them know that they are deeply loved by God.
• 3:56
  Loren Richmond Jr (10:00)
• 4:00
  Yeah.
• 4:04
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (10:24)
• 4:08
  That's our definition of empathy. And when you study the Bible carefully, you see that empathy is everywhere throughout the Bible. In Deeply Loved, we unpack over a hundred empathy scriptures. Now the word empathy is not used in the older translations and only occasionally, even in the newer translations, but it is used. It's a newer word, but it's a word that really is embedded in compassion and in love. We can't offer compassion for others that's true.
• 4:12
  Loren Richmond Jr (10:46)
• 4:16
  Mm-hmm.
• 4:20
  Right.
• 4:24
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (10:54)
• 4:28
  truly compassionate for them, truly helpful if we aren't paying attention to what do they actually need? What does it like to be that person? What is going to truly be most helpful to them? Because sometimes what we want to do for somebody isn't actually what would be most helpful. And this is why Jesus teaches us in his golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That golden rule is a rule of empathy. It's being considerate. It's putting yourself
• 4:32
  someone else's situation and in their skin if you could, walking around in their shoes to understand life as they do. So many of the teachings that the Bible gives us, for instance all the one-anothers in the New Testament, we turn to those one-anothers in our book Deeply Loved and we show you how each of those are connected to empathetic understanding and care for one another.
• 4:36
  Loren Richmond Jr (11:44)
• 4:40
  Yeah, yeah Christy one thing that I noticed in the book was you both share stories about kind of your own emotional awareness and I'll be honest like when I was first reading it I kept seeing story after story and think boy they're almost like too self-reflective or too emotionally critical and then like as I thought about it I recognized
• 4:44
  through your stories that you both share, how this kind of emotional awareness of recognizing your own internal stuff impacted or did not impact, I guess in some circumstances, right? Your relationships with your children or your ⁓ colleagues. Talk more about that because I think that's an important point that is so easily missed that we don't recognize how we tend to take out our own stuff on other people.
• 4:48
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (12:36)
• 4:52
  Well that's exactly why we treat ourselves the way we've been treated. So in my story, you I was born into a family of thinkers and doers and they didn't know what to do with my emotions. And my emotions felt messy and in the way and overwhelming to them. And so I can remember very early being told when I showed emotion, know, Christy, snap out of it. And if I couldn't snap out of it, I was sent to my room until I could come out without showing any emotion or
• 4:56
  Loren Richmond Jr (12:40)
• 5:00
  Yeah.
• 5:04
  Hmm.
• 5:08
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (13:05)
• 5:12
  put in the car until I could stop crying. This was their way of trying to manage my emotions, which overwhelmed them. They didn't know how to manage their own emotions. And so they learned to repress them, and they taught me to repress my emotions too. And this caused me to go into hiding. It caused me to feel like I needed to live my life oriented around figuring out what other people wanted and needed and pleasing them. And as long as I did that, things went pretty well.
• 5:16
  Loren Richmond Jr (13:15)
• 5:20
  Hmm.
• 5:24
  Hmm.
• 5:28
  Yeah.
• 5:32
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (13:33)
• 5:36
  for me
• 5:40
  at school, at home, even at church. But the problem was, is this left me isolated and unknown, left me with a false self, it me trying to earn love and approval, it led me denying my own needs and emotions and lost and disconnected. And it left me judging myself and judging others. So it was such a grace to me when I began to discover through a safe place.
• 5:44
  Loren Richmond Jr (13:43)
• 5:48
  Mm-hmm.
• 5:52
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (14:02)
• 5:56
  was a spiritual director who could listen to me, who wasn't overwhelmed by my emotions, and who could mediate God's love, His grace, and His empathy to me. And as I learned to be able to understand that Jesus didn't shame me for having emotions, Jesus isn't overwhelmed for my emotions. In fact, Jesus Himself understood and experienced emotion. One of the things we share in Deeply Loved is a Bible study we did
• 6:00
  looking at the life of Jesus in the gospel and in the New Testament, 39 Greek words for Jesus' emotions and looking at areas where Jesus experienced the very exact and same emotions that I experienced. I love Hebrews 4.15 that we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with us, but one who is able to because he's been tested, tried, tempted in every way we have.
• 6:04
  So to be able to recognize that Jesus meets me in my emotions has been such a grace to me and so helpful to my connection with Jesus, my love for Jesus, and my ability to internalize His love and then reflect it to others. Without that, I lived shrouded by shame. know, neurological studies show this. There was one neuropsychology class I remember taking where they went over a study that showed where they were looking at brain scans.
• 6:08
  And they found that if I were to share with you, Lauren, that my brother-in-law died and that I'm grieving because he passed away two months ago, and I was just here with you that I was grieving, and you were just to be dismissive and change the subject or say something that was just kind of fluffy and light like, you know, well, I'm sure you'll get over it soon, that actually the shame centers in my brain would light up when I'm vulnerable and I show a need or an emotion and I'm not met with empathy.
• 6:12
  Loren Richmond Jr (15:37)
• 6:16
  Mm-hmm.
• 6:20
  Hmm.
• 6:24
  Yeah.
• 6:28
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (15:58)
• 6:32
  This is
• 6:36
  the way God has wired us for empathy. He's given us mirroring neurons. And empathy is a great way for us to have healthy and secure attachment. We're made for this. Even as a mother caring for my child, I would very early on learn to have empathy for my baby when my baby cried. What does that cry mean? Is that a I'm hungry cry? Or is that a I'm lonely cry? Or is that an I'm scared cry? Or is that an I'm?
• 6:40
  Loren Richmond Jr (16:17)
• 6:44
  Yeah. Right.
• 6:48
  Mm-hmm.
• 6:52
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (16:27)
• 6:56
  Her cry, what does that cry mean? Empathetically, was able to understand I could then meet my child's needs. God's created us for these empathetic relationships, both with Him and with each other. And scripture is full of showing us God's empathy for us. But I missed it the first half of my life.
• 7:00
  Loren Richmond Jr (16:48)
• 7:04
  Yeah, wow, such a, my goodness, such a powerful story you share of, being put into a car to, know, such a powerful image, I think, of so what often is our society of folks are just not able to handle emotions. And I'm curious, like, do you think it's an inability? Do you think it's an unwillingness? Do you think,
• 7:08
  Culturally even beyond Christianity, like we just do a bad job of training people to recognize emotions?
• 7:12
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (17:24)
• 7:16
  Well, especially in generations past, I think our culture is getting a lot more oriented around emotions. But the Christian culture less so, because we're sort of afraid of the emotional excesses and selfishness and indulgence and, you know,
• 7:20
  Loren Richmond Jr (17:32)
• 7:24
  Mm.
• 7:28
  Yeah.
• 7:32
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (17:39)
• 7:36
  I'm okay, you're okay, know, my truth, your truth, and we make it all relative to the person as though there is no God and I get to decide my own, everything about my life, even my own gender. And so to be controlled by emotions and desires is not a good thing, but to deny, repress, negate, reject our emotions, we're cutting ourselves off from emotional intelligence, which has been highly researched and is really important to effective living, success in work, and even healthy faith.
• 7:40
  Loren Richmond Jr (18:02)
• 7:44
  Mm-hmm, right.
• 7:48
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (18:09)
• 7:52
  also
• 7:56
  cutting ourselves off from relationship because when we're not able to have our emotions and our needs and be aware of them and express them, we become vacant as human beings, or we become heads or just busy bodies. And so, you when we meet somebody, we say, well, how are you? How are you feeling? We want to get to know each other. We want it to be personal. That's where the bonding and the connection, the loving relationships happen.
• 8:00
  Loren Richmond Jr (18:22)
• 8:04
  Yeah.
• 8:08
  I mean, I've certainly seen, I feel like, I feel like in some sense, this is aspects of Christianity, like there's certainly some aspects like.
• 8:12
  from my childhood, I certainly remember like this idea of like a very kind of rigid or stoic sense of ⁓ emotionalism. You know, there was very ⁓ concise places, I guess, where it was allowed. Certainly like in an altar call for church, for instance, like that was a place where emotion was allowed. ⁓ You know, certainly I'm thinking of other Christian traditions where there's high levels of emotionalism. ⁓ And we might perhaps wonder whether...
• 8:16
  There's perhaps too much emotionalism in some traditions, Something that y'all talk about is the importance of befriending our emotions without being controlled by them. So you want to kind of tease through more about that?
• 8:20
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (19:29)
• 8:24
  Colossians 312, Paul says, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience.
• 8:28
  And that clothing, it's a wrapping. So I need to be wrapped or held in the empathy of Christ. And this is what really supports and strengthens and awakens me to be able to do this for others. Of course, the thrust of what Paul is teaching there is for others have, you know, compassion and kindness and all this, but it's got to come from the inside. We love because God first loved us. We need to receive God's love. Empathy is a component of God's love.
• 8:32
  love.
• 8:36
  So as I receive that love, and furthermore Jesus teaches us in His new commandment, it's throughout the Scriptures, to love one another. So sometimes we as Christians, especially as leaders who are shepherds or helping other people, teachers, we're focused on our ministry to others which is so very important, but we can neglect ourself in that and we can think, oh yeah, 2 Corinthians 520, we're there for Christ's ambassadors as though God were making His appeal through us. We implore you to be reconciled to God or become a friend of God.
• 8:40
  God, for He's already a friend to you, as the message paraphrase puts it. we limit that to our ministry of being an ambassador for Jesus to others, which is explicitly what's being talked about. But I need ambassadors too, not just when I first come to Christ, but all through my life. As Christians, we're called the body of Christ, and so we're to love one another. And so sometimes in our roles of leadership, even as parents, we get so focused on what we're giving to others that we neglect
• 8:44
  Loren Richmond Jr (20:48)
• 8:48
  Mm-hmm.
• 8:52
  Yeah
• 8:56
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (21:08)
• 9:00
  to deal with our own needs, brokenness, and sins in a way that we're receiving that tenderhearted mercy of the Lord, that grace of God that nourishes and strengthens us and includes empathy. Because as it gets in me, and I am receiving and healing and growing, it puts me into a posture, a place with an ability to tune into others and care for others in a deeper level.
• 9:04
  And so, you know, obviously this is super important for our relationships and any helping relationship, you spiritual direction, counseling, coaching, leading a small group. But it's also important for pastors and others who are teachers, because when we're teaching people or giving a sermon, we need to be aware of the people that we're talking to and what are their lives like? What are they experiencing? What are they feeling? One of the ways that we talk about this in Deeply Loved is we talk about the importance of receiving
• 9:08
  Loren Richmond Jr (21:56)
• 9:12
  Yeah, I'm-
• 9:16
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (22:02)
• 9:20
  freeway empathy. This is receiving empathy from God for our needs, our emotions, for us personally in relationship with Him, receiving His love deeply. And then we talk about self-empathy. This is agreeing with God's grace. We're not talking about a self-help program here. We're not talking about trying to hug ourselves. We're talking about actually receiving
• 9:24
  Loren Richmond Jr (22:04)
• 9:28
  Hmm.
• 9:32
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 9:36
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (22:30)
• 9:40
  God's grace with gratitude, with thanksgiving, with affirmation that it's true, instead of refuting it or receiving it only maybe on an intellectual level, but not agreeing with it and receiving it into our soul. And that we often have unconscious resistances because of ways maybe we've been treated in the past and treating ourselves that way or because of shame or the lies of the enemy that keep us from receiving and agreeing with God's grace.
• 9:44
  Loren Richmond Jr (22:37)
• 9:48
  Mm-hmm.
• 9:52
  Right.
• 9:56
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (23:00)
• 10:00
  The way is the overflow after we've received it from God, agreed with His grace, then we're able to overflow it in love for each other. That's three-way empathy.
• 10:04
  Loren Richmond Jr (23:11)
• 10:08
  Yeah, I love that. I'm so glad, I'm so glad y'all brought up the, the, how this affects ministry leaders, pastors. This is a podcast that really tries to focus in on church leaders and pastors. I'm thinking of some of the themes you all mentioned in that last bit of conversation, connecting to folks like Chuck DeGrode or Steve Kus, who've done work in this similar space. You know, certainly I'm thinking of
• 10:12
  DeGroote's book the narcissism goes to church and how so often narcissism at least as he said is rooted in past woundedness like I'm reminded of Steve Cuss talking about how similar like you said Christy like we we have it in our heads but necessarily in our hearts talk about the importance of you know folks who are really leading others I mean man Christy you've had to
• 10:16
  really wrestle with some painful stuff and now you're a leader yourself. What did that look like for you?
• 10:20
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (24:13)
• 10:24
  Well, it looked like humbling myself, humbling myself to be honest with myself, to confess my sins and my needs and my wounds and to trust that God actually would meet me in those. And actually, His love was enough, His grace was enough, and that He could bring healing in my life. And then out of that, I've become a wounded healer, one who He uses those very wounds to enable me to be a messenger of His love and grace to others.
• 10:28
  Loren Richmond Jr (24:22)
• 10:32
  Hmm.
• 10:36
  Hmm.
• 10:40
  Yeah.
• 10:44
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (24:43)
• 10:48
  Because I have authority. have experience. I've experienced the healing, the power, the depth of God's love. I've learned to live in it.
• 10:52
  Loren Richmond Jr (24:50)
• 10:56
  Yeah.
• 11:00
  And Bill, you talked about this for yourself early on ⁓ in your own life, how you experienced someone kind of helping you understand some of your emotions. How have you seen the importance of that put into practice for pastors or ministry leaders today?
• 11:04
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (25:10)
• 11:08
  Well, in our Soul Shepherding Institute, we lead retreats for pastors and missionaries, we create an authentic community for 40 to 50 leaders who are together. Many of people who are earning a certificate in spiritual direction from us, learning how to be great listeners and shepherds for others. Spiritual direction is like a form of discipleship. So in these communities, as we interact with people, ⁓ people that come on our retreats with us, people that ⁓ read our book, Deeply Loved, they'll come into it with
• 11:12
  a sense of thinking that they have an understanding of empathy. It's a word we know and we could say a few things about it. But once they actually experience it by being in relationship with us on retreat and in exercises that we facilitate, whether it's a scripture meditation, journaling, or ⁓ soul talk, guided conversation. But as people actually experience being deeply listened to and understood and cared for and validated,
• 11:16
  the
• 11:20
  lights begin to go on in their brain and in their soul and they come more alive. And it enables for a much deeper relationship with God and with one another and it facilitates a much greater awareness of other people and what they're experiencing in their life. Because the thing is that in all of us, in our families, in our churches, in our work, you know, as we're trying to be helpful to other people, the hard truth for people like me, you know, I'm a thinker. ⁓
• 11:24
  Loren Richmond Jr (26:39)
• 11:28
  Mm-hmm.
• 11:32
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (26:39)
• 11:36
  a teacher and I've learned to become aware of my emotions over the years but I value thoughts and I value wisdom but if I just dish that out to people in principles or with advice people don't care what I know if they don't know that I care.
• 11:40
  Loren Richmond Jr (26:55)
• 11:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 11:48
  Yeah.
• 11:52
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (26:57)
• 11:56
  And so I've learned to hold back the advice, especially in relational situations, and listen and ask questions and feel with and for people. And that's what God does for us, and that's the word for empathy in Hebrews 4.15 that Christi was quoting earlier. That word means fellow feeling. That's the meaning of the Greek word sympathio.
• 12:00
  Loren Richmond Jr (27:16)
• 12:04
  Hmm.
• 12:08
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (27:19)
• 12:12
  That's what the Lord does. That's what Jesus does for us. That's why we can look in the Gospels and find 39 Greek words that describe Jesus' emotions, because He fully took on the human condition.
• 12:16
  all of our temptations to sin, all of our stressors and injustices and all the things. And he was tired, he was thirsty, he was hungry, he felt rejected, he was judged and criticized. were times he felt embarrassed, probably even a sense of shame, not shame from sin, of course, because he didn't sin, but then he took on our sin. So he had emotions with that. And so we can see all through the Gospels that Jesus is a living, breathing human being with a beating heart, with emotions. And so he enters into
• 12:20
  Loren Richmond Jr (27:48)
• 12:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 12:28
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (28:01)
• 12:32
  my condition. So as we help people understand Jesus this way and to relate to Him this way, it brings such a deeper richness and fullness of living for them, and then they're able to invite others into that.
• 12:36
  Loren Richmond Jr (28:15)
• 12:40
  Yeah, yeah. I'm thinking about something you said, Bill. We live in such a polarized, angry society in many ways. And I'm thinking that there's a sociologist, I hope to have a conversation with Josh Packard, who talks about the importance of listening. But I almost wonder, is the problem that why we can't listen to one another because we haven't listened to ourselves first?
• 12:44
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (28:40)
• 12:48
  That's exactly what we're saying. And that's why the subtitle of our book is receiving and reflecting God's great empathy for you. Most people would think a book on empathy would be focused on all the listening skills. I need to have better empathy for others. And certainly that that's a main part of our book. But it's not really the heart of it. And it's not the beginning of it. Because if we don't go on our own journey of vulnerability and honesty and learning to receive empathy, it's going to really limit our ability to give effective
• 12:52
  Loren Richmond Jr (28:46)
• 12:56
  Hmm.
• 13:00
  Right.
• 13:04
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (29:10)
• 13:08
  passion and empathy to others.
• 13:12
  Loren Richmond Jr (29:13)
• 13:16
  Yeah. I mean, gosh, Christie, I'm someone who's done a chaplain training, certified pastoral education, chaplain training in a hospital setting. And I think one of hardest things about that training is you think, I'm just going be doing a lot of practicing visits with folks in the hospital. Then you realize most of it is examining your own stuff. And you realize, boy, this is a lot harder work than I thought it would be. I'm curious. Yeah.
• 13:20
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (29:41)
• 13:24
  That's exactly right. And
• 13:28
  it's so fruitful, though, when we take that invitation from the Lord to do that, and we grow and mature, and we get closer to Christ as we recognize that our ways of distracting ourselves, our ways of numbing, our ways of trying to defend against these emotions or these needs or our own sin, our ways of trying to secure ourselves, actually, they disrupt our discipleship and our growth.
• 13:32
  Loren Richmond Jr (30:11)
• 13:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 13:40
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (30:11)
• 13:44
  than
• 13:48
  Christ like this.
• 13:52
  The first thing we do is we have them receive.
• 13:56
  Because if I'm a pastor and I'm pastoring others, but I'm not being pastored, that is not going to work well. Eventually, I'm going to burn out or have a moral blowout with a sinful pattern because our soul gets split. And so we'll find ourselves in the position that the Pharisees were in, I'm believing all these things and I'm saying all these things, but they're not really alive in my life. There are these contradictions in my life.
• 14:00
  Loren Richmond Jr (30:29)
• 14:04
  Mm. Mm-hmm.
• 14:08
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (30:50)
• 14:12
  So we need to be aware of those contradictions because you can't be a serious student of the Bible and not have difficulty actually living up to it, right? We're going to fall short. We're going to have places where we're confessing our sins. Romans 7, I do what I don't want to do. What I want to do, I don't do. I mean, that's alive in all of us. But as we are honest and real about the hurts and the challenges and the sins in our life, and we're doing that inner work where we're being vulnerable and we're confessing our sins and our struggles to someone and we're receiving empathy, we're receiving
• 14:16
  Loren Richmond Jr (31:06)
• 14:20
  Right.
• 14:24
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (31:21)
• 14:28
  forgiveness and we're doing the personal discipleship work so that then now our ministry comes out of the overflow. Soul Shepherding we call that serve what you're cooking.
• 14:32
  Loren Richmond Jr (31:30)
• 14:36
  Hmm.
• 14:40
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (31:31)
• 14:44
  serve
• 14:48
  to others what you're cooking in the kitchen of your own soul with the Lord. So what's been feeding you? What's been helping you to grow, to heal, to be more like Jesus, to be a more loving person? We want, it's from that place that our most effective ministry to others comes from. Our own life, our own school, our life is our school of discipleship to Jesus, and when Jesus has that great little mini parable that the kingdom of the heavens is like the owner of a general store who could put his hands on
• 14:52
  I want to be like that store owner. And those treasures that, of course, come from Jesus, from the Bible, but they're in my life. I need to be like experiencing these things. That's why the people said that Jesus had such tremendous authority, why they applauded after the Sermon on the Mount. It wasn't because like he spoke with a loud voice or something, or because he was just a brilliant thinker. He certainly was all of that. But it's because he was living the things that he was teaching. Everybody could see that he was a loving person.
• 14:56
  Loren Richmond Jr (32:28)
• 15:00
  Hmm.
• 15:04
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (32:30)
• 15:08
  person. He was kind and he was gentle and he was truthful and wise and that when he said bless those that curse you they could see that he was doing that. By God's power, by God's grace in his own life, Jesus was blessing those that cursed him. That's why they gave him authority and why they listened to him. So that same thing is true for us. That as we are living the things, you know, by God's help, know, little by little and back and forth, we're gonna make mistakes, we're gonna sin, we're gonna need to confess that, but as we're growing and learning and people
• 15:12
  can see us in process becoming more like Jesus, that's the most powerful ministry we can have to others. Lauren, the other thing is that ministry is not sustainable if we're not doing this work. Because truth without, if I'm receiving truth without any empathy or love from God, it's harsh. And if I'm just responsible in ministry without receiving any of God's love and empathy, then it becomes drudgery and I burn out.
• 15:16
  Loren Richmond Jr (33:12)
• 15:20
  Yes.
• 15:24
  Mm-hmm.
• 15:28
  Yes.
• 15:32
  Yes.
• 15:36
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (33:29)
• 15:40
  It's not sustainable.
• 15:44
  Loren Richmond Jr (33:31)
• 15:48
  Yeah, I'm so glad to share that. Let's do this before we take a break. I want to hear, certainly you have your soul shepherding program. Like if you were talking to a pastor or a ministry leader, especially someone with so much on their plate, ⁓ what are like two or three things you would say like, if you're not doing this, start this immediately.
• 15:52
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (33:55)
• 15:56
  want you to have a safe.
• 16:00
  listened to, prayed for, where you can be really honest. ⁓ I've worked this into my life for decades now, but starting off and beginning as a Christian counselor and in ministry, I was so focused on other people, I wasn't taking enough time for myself. And so I had to put in my calendar, you know.
• 16:04
  Loren Richmond Jr (34:03)
• 16:08
  Mm.
• 16:12
  Yeah.
• 16:16
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (34:19)
• 16:20
  appointment to sit down and talk with a pastor, a counselor, recent years it's been a spiritual director, ⁓ a soul friend, but I need to be real and honest and doing my own work in receiving ministry because that protects me from burning out, that protects me from falling into hypocritical patterns. So that's what we want for every pastor, every shepherd.
• 16:24
  Loren Richmond Jr (34:44)
• 16:28
  want to ask this in, Christy, let me get your perspective on this. I'm thinking of a conversation I just had with Tara Beth Leach, who's a pastor and author. we talked about, one of the things we talked about was kind of processing your own stuff or your own woundedness, especially like on stage, you know, while you're preaching. What advice do you have, Christy, for leaders, kind of as far as boundaries? Like certainly,
• 16:32
  I think we want to be share our emotions and our struggles, also I would think like there does need to be some limits. So what are your thoughts on that?
• 16:36
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (35:19)
• 16:40
  There absolutely does. Thank you, Lauren. We certainly want to have empathy for the struggles of people in our
• 16:44
  our congregation and those that we're ministering to. And so if we can articulate with that, with them, some of the reality of those struggles and those difficulties and let them know that we have experience and understanding in them, that's good. But we want to share our experience, strength and hope. We don't want to just be down in the pit of the struggle with them where we're stuck and we're not making progress in our discipleship of Jesus. If we are just constantly only sharing our difficulties, our struggles,
• 16:48
  Loren Richmond Jr (35:41)
• 16:52
  Mm-hmm.
• 16:56
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (35:55)
• 17:00
  our emotions, disclosing the ugly parts, the sinful parts that we're wrestling with in temptation, and we're not making any progress in our discipleship to Jesus and growth in Christ-likeness, then it's actually not going to help people. We want to be able to say to those that God has called us to companion, follow me as I follow Christ. And we want to be able to lead them into more of His grace and His truth and more of a health, emotional and spiritual health.
• 17:04
  Loren Richmond Jr (36:07)
• 17:08
  Hmm.
• 17:12
  Yeah.
• 17:16
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (36:25)
• 17:20
  So we do need to be careful and we counsel pastors and leaders. You share with people the struggles that you've seen victory in, that God has brought some healing for you in. That gives the experience strength and hope. Don't share things that you haven't yet gotten help and healing in. Those vulnerable things we want to share with our own spiritual director or our own counselor in private and vulnerability with ⁓ someone that I am seeking help from, even with a friend.
• 17:24
  Loren Richmond Jr (36:34)
• 17:28
  Mm-hmm.
• 17:32
  Yeah.
• 17:36
  Yeah.
• 17:40
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (36:53)
• 17:44
  That is real and authentic and exposes me to some.
• 17:48
  my fears and the difficulty. But when I'm vulnerable from my platform, it's a whole different thing. That is a tool that God can use to be very helpful in our teaching and our ministry to others. But if the place I am vulnerable is in my public platform, that's not going to be good for the other people and it's not going to be good for me. It's going to feel like I'm being understood and cared for, but I'm in my role. So that doesn't count. So that is very unhealthy when we do that. So what we say is, you know, when
• 17:52
  you're being vulnerable in your ministry, including like in your ministry as a writer, don't share something that you're still afraid about or ashamed of or a sin that you haven't confessed or gotten help with. And this is what Christie is getting at, that we need to see, you know, that God has met us and we've begun to experience some healing, some growth in that area. Not that we're perfected, because that's certainly not going to be the case, but there needs to be some progress there. And that's why the 12-step
• 17:56
  dictum that Christy quoted there. We share our experience, that's the vulnerability. Our strength, that's what we're learning. And then the hope, the hope in Jesus and how the Lord has been meeting us and when we'll meet the people that we're ministering to.
• 18:00
  Loren Richmond Jr (38:14)
• 18:04
  Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you sharing all that. I suppose, let me make this the last question. I feel like this conversation is just bringing up so much good stuff that I want to keep asking questions. Like, ⁓ any kind of alarm bells, you know, when you see something or you talk to a leader and you're like, my goodness, like get this addressed. I know it's a bit harsh, but I'm not sure how to ask the question.
• 18:08
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (38:40)
• 18:12
  Well, any time a leader is experiencing ⁓ isolation, a sense of being defeated by a sin pattern, emotions of shame, ⁓
• 18:16
  Loren Richmond Jr (38:46)
• 18:20
  Hmm.
• 18:24
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (38:53)
• 18:28
  a weariness that is ongoing and coupled with difficulty setting boundaries, I mean probably on a path of burnout. These are some of the alarms that need to sound. another case would be so invested in my ministry or my teaching or the problems of other people that I'm just not paying attention to the things that we're talking about here, the things that are going on in my heart and soul. And I would also add to that a compassion
• 18:32
  Loren Richmond Jr (38:56)
• 18:36
  Yeah.
• 18:40
  Right.
• 18:44
  Right.
• 18:48
  Right.
• 18:52
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (39:23)
• 18:56
  and fatigue and inability to be able to actually listen with empathy or care for other people would show a real need for your own care. And then also I would say if there is a sense of ⁓ doubt where what you profess in our professing and teaching is not something you're truly believing yourself.
• 19:00
  Loren Richmond Jr (39:24)
• 19:04
  Yes. Yes.
• 19:08
  Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I'm reminded of perhaps you all remember this from 2020 back during the height of a lot of stressors, right? And I remember there was like a graphic shared that was like green, yellow, red, and it kind of had some markers along with like why you might be in the red. And I remember like reading that and seeing like a lot of reds. was like, my goodness, I am in a lot of red here.
• 19:12
  I need to pay attention to what's going on here. So I appreciate you sharing those markers. So Bill and Christy are the authors of Deeply Loved, Receiving and Reflecting on Grodd's Great Empathy for You. And ⁓ I just want to highlight again for our listeners, I really appreciate the book, want to recommend it. I think your stuff is fantastic. So let's take a break and we'll come back with some closing questions.
• 19:16
  we're back with Bill and Christy Gaultiere. Thank you so much for your time. We always tell folks, these closing questions, you can take them as seriously or not as you'd like to. So I don't know if you wanna tag team these or each respond, feel free to as you'd like to. But if you're pope for a day, any kind of thoughts, what you might wanna do with that day, any thoughts on emotional health for leaders perhaps, I don't know.
• 19:20
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (41:07)
• 19:24
  Yeah, that's a great question. That's something not something I've ever imagined. So if I could be Pope for a day, I think I'd want to validate for all the Christians out there and of course, especially the leaders that, I would just want to bless you with a retreat for your soul. And as a time of learning that you could get off the grid for a while. Sometimes in leadership, we just we just don't get off the grid.
• 19:28
  maybe for a day here and there, but to really unplug because when you get a deep immersion in God's Word, in a community of loving, authentic people, in a beautiful place, and you're learning, and you're able to grow from the inside out, gosh, it changes everything, the renewal that we see pastors and missionaries experience. It's incredible.
• 19:32
  Loren Richmond Jr (41:58)
• 19:36
  Awesome. A theologian or historical Christian figure that you'd want to meet or bring back to life.
• 19:40
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (42:07)
• 19:44
  Well, I would love to spend some time with Apostle John. I would love to hear from him personally, ask him some questions and just get a sense for the long, rich experience he had with Christ and his ministry and the suffering that he endured as well.
• 19:48
  Loren Richmond Jr (42:27)
• 19:52
  Yeah, I suppose I want to ask this then. Like, I feel like the Peter often becomes such a caricature, character and caricature of emotions and emotionalism. Like real quick, Bill, any thoughts on Peter's emotional awareness?
• 19:56
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (42:45)
• 20:00
  Yeah, I'd love to sit down with Peter and just have him sort of unpack for me the transformation that took place in his life because
• 20:04
  the Peter that we see in the Gospels, like you're saying, he's relatable and he's lovable because sometimes his mouth just runs and he can be kind of impulsive and ⁓ hot-tempered and overly confident and so forth. And so we can see his mistakes and his struggles and his immaturity, but then the Peter that we see in Acts and in his epistles.
• 20:08
  the maturity, the humility, the compassion. mean, for instance, the way that he blessed the Apostle Paul's ministry, right? I Acts begins, you know, Peter, Peter, Peter, but then it's Paul, Paul, Paul, Paul, Paul, Paul, that's because Peter blessed the ministry of Paul. Of course, I'm speaking from the human viewpoint because Acts is all about Jesus, the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but Peter's humility to bless the ministry of the Apostle Paul so that Paul's the one that becomes the apostle to the Gentiles.
• 20:12
  Loren Richmond Jr (43:25)
• 20:16
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:20
  Mm-hmm.
• 20:24
  Right.
• 20:28
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (43:48)
• 20:32
  in the apostle of grace in a most famous way. But I don't know that we ever get Paul without Peter's humility. So just to hear more of the backstory and how he would describe it, you know, we've got, you know, a lot there in the scriptures, but there's also a lot missing.
• 20:36
  Loren Richmond Jr (44:02)
• 20:40
  I'm thinking of two of like the story of Cornelius, Peter having the emotional awareness or the maturity to say, hey, I might be wrong on this. mean, gosh, couldn't we all use some of that today? ⁓ Speaking of Christie, like, what do you think history will remember from our current time and place?
• 20:44
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (44:23)
• 20:48
  Well, I don't want history to remember in Christianity, especially the division, divisiveness that we're experiencing this time in our history. But what I do hope will be remembered, especially as we look at Christian history and the church, is the beautiful ecumenicalness, the collaboration among the different cultures and expressions and denominations of Christ in His church.
• 20:52
  Loren Richmond Jr (44:30)
• 20:56
  Hmm.
• 21:00
  Yeah, any thoughts about what you hope for the future of Christianity, Mill?
• 21:04
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (44:58)
• 21:08
  know, what I would love to see is churches getting, and we are seeing this happening more and more, getting a vision of having ⁓ trained people in their church, laypeople, volunteers included, who learn the ministry of spiritual direction. Because we have seen what happens when the pastor gets this vision and helps to train some of people. I just imagine a church where the small group leaders have a growth in maturity in Christ that
• 21:12
  Loren Richmond Jr (45:14)
• 21:16
  Mmm.
• 21:20
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (45:27)
• 21:24
  They can do more than like open up their home and be hospitable, which is a beautiful thing that we need. And then, you know, put on a video to discuss or, or, you know, to facilitate discussion. And those are important skills as well. But what if the small group leader could also listen with empathy, ask great questions, have a deep understanding of the spiritual life and things like we teach in soul sharpening. teach a model called the Christ stages of faith.
• 21:28
  Loren Richmond Jr (45:31)
• 21:32
  Right.
• 21:36
  Hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 21:40
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (45:55)
• 21:44
  This is from one of our other books called Journey of the Soul. And we look at, we use Christ as an acronym, six different stages of faith, different needs, different challenges, different struggles, different temptations at each stage, different soul care practices that are likely to be most helpful, different spiritual disciplines that are likely to most helpful at each stage. When you understand a body of knowledge like this, you know, we've done a lot of study on the research as well as our own experience with people.
• 21:48
  And so naming these six stages, everybody on the planet is in one of these stages. Even if someone's not a Christian, they're in a spiritual stage, some degree of relationship or lack of relationship with God. And when you understand and you can name that, and then you understand what the characteristics are of that stage, it makes such a difference. So a small group leader who has been through some things, like for instance, getting through what we talk about as the wall, a time of being stuck in our relationship with God. ⁓
• 21:52
  Loren Richmond Jr (46:33)
• 21:56
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:00
  Yeah.
• 22:04
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (46:54)
• 22:08
  maybe from a burnout or maybe from a sin pattern or like Christy was talking about, compassion fatigue. We all hit a wall at some point, usually more than once. Many Christians don't know how to get through that. When you understand how to get through that, which we teach in Journey to the Soul, and a lot of it does come down to what we're teaching in Deeply Loved around empathy, then now you can guide somebody. So small group leaders and other lay leaders in churches retreat leaders and just
• 22:12
  Loren Richmond Jr (47:00)
• 22:16
  Mm-hmm.
• 22:20
  Yeah. Well...
• 22:24
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (47:24)
• 22:28
  listeners, friends to meet with, ⁓ lay spiritual directors who could listen, understand, and guide people. Wow, what that does for the maturity of a church to now become a brighter light as a witness for Jesus in the city, in the ways that we reach out to people in the city and around the world as we share the gospel.
• 22:32
  Loren Richmond Jr (47:43)
• 22:36
  Yeah, I love that. I'm thinking certainly what we already spoke about of sharing one's ⁓ Testimony can often look like this, right? In some traditions, like I'm thinking about... ⁓
• 22:40
  Gosh, in a past conversation I had with a guest, I think deconstruction can be kind of one of those walls, right? I think if we're thinking in that metaphor of like, we don't know how to get past this wall. So having a spiritual guide or mentor, like you say, who can say like, hey, I've been there. I've asked those questions. Let me help you see the other side. a wonderful conversation. Share how people can connect with you and get the book and all that.
• 22:44
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (48:04)
• 22:48
  Yes.
• 22:52
  Well, Deeply Love, our book, can be found anywhere books are sold. And we would love to connect with you. You can learn more about the ministry of Soul Shepherding at soulshepherding.org. And there there's information about how to come on one of the retreats with us. We'd love to have you join us for a retreat. We do eight of these a year all around the U.S. in beautiful locations. And you can also join like you're joining right now online over Zoom.
• 22:56
  to these retreats as well if you're not able to travel and be there in person. But it's a way to really go deeper and to get away for some concentrated time of renewing your intimacy with Jesus, renewing your call, renewing and growing in emotional health and finding and having a safe community where you will be listened to and responded to with empathy. So that's one of things we love. We also have a podcast, Soul Talks with Bill and Christy Gaultier.
• 23:00
  as well a blog, but it's just our joy to serve you with resources and care and training so you can get healthy and then lead healthy.
• 23:04
  Loren Richmond Jr (49:33)
• 23:08
  Yeah, yeah, awesome. Thank you so much for sharing. Thank you so much for your time and your work. We always leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with you.
• 23:12
  Bill And Kristi Gaultiere (49:43)
• 23:16
  and also with you.