Latest / The Daily Writer / Morgan Canclini-Mitchell on Secrets of PR Success, Avoiding the Biggest Author Mistakes, and Book Launch Tactics

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Morgan Canclini-Mitchell on Secrets of PR Success, Avoiding the Biggest Author Mistakes, and Book Launch Tactics · The Daily Writer

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_00: Hey friends, welcome to the Profitable Writer Podcast.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is the show that helps you grow your impact and income as a writer.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Kent Sanders and I'm an author and ghostwriter.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as an author, one of your biggest goals is to get your books into the hands of as many readers as possible.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: And as you know, it's gonna involve various levels of marketing and in some cases, a PR or public relations team.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Now imagine if you could sit down with a bona fide expert who knows the industry and has gotten their book clients on every conceivable PR platform.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: You'd come away with some golden nuggets of PR wisdom to apply to your current or future books, no matter what your genre or publishing pathway.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the good news is that I've got you covered because my guest today is Morgan Canclini Mitchell, who is the principal and founder of 2PR.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: 2PR is a boutique publicity firm representing talents and brands in a variety of verticals, including T V stars, nonprofits, best-selling authors, professional athletes, film projects, and more.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: The firm has a unique niche in representing a variety of crossover entertainment personalities, brands, and organizations, positioning them securely in both the faith-based and mainstream media landscapes.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: In her role at the firm, Morgan spearheads publicity and influencer marketing campaigns for her clients.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: She's been featured in Fast Company Magazine, Bustle, Her Story of Success podcast, Inspire Magazine, Christianity Today, Nashville Lifestyles Magazine, and other outlets.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: She's also been a speaker at Ryderfest, Baylor University, Vanderbilt University, Belmont University, and more.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: Morgan's past and current clients include New York Times best-selling authors, an Academy Award-winning documentary, award-winning radio show hosts, Ascap's songwriters of the century, Bravo, and TLC reality show stars, cable news correspondents, NBA championship players, feature films, and Grammy Award-winning recording artists.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mention all that, and that's quite a list, as you can tell, because I want you to know that Morgan is the real deal.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: She is a true expert in every sense of the word.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I want you to listen carefully to the wisdom that she's about to share with us here in this episode.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: So what do we talk about in this conversation?
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: We talk about a variety of topics, including paid versus unpaid marketing, features you can bake into your books that help with PR, the best and worst time to launch books, how a PR agency works, avoiding common mistakes authors make with PR, and a lot more.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this is a fun and very informative conversation, and I hope that it motivates you, as it did me, to really become more assertive and taking charge of our author career.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you never hire a professional PR agency to help you with marketing, there are a lot of things that you can do to market your books in a compelling way and that connects you with your potential readers, customers, and clients.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: But you can find out more about Morgan and 2PR by visiting 2PR.com.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: That is TWOPR.com.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: So here's my conversation with Morgan Canclini Mitchell.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Morgan, welcome to the podcast.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so good to connect with you.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: I have so much respect for what you and your colleagues do in the field of media and marketing and PR and all the things.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome to the podcast.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Good to have you.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_04: So glad to be here.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_04: Excited to chat with you about all things publishing, authors, and PR.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe this would be a good place to start out.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to hear a bit of your story about how you got involved in this whole field to begin with.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I do want to ask a lot of questions about what PR is and how authors can use it and get down to some of the nitty-gritty.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm also always interested in people's stories and how they get into the fields that they're in, especially as it relates to things like PR or uh or being a writer.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: So what can you share with us?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_04: Well, it's been an interesting journey.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_04: So um I came to Nashville, I always say before the flood.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_04: So for Nashvilleans, that's 2009.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_04: We had a major flood here.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_04: I had just moved to town and thought, what have I done?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so I started working um here at a record label.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_04: My first thought was I'm gonna be in the music business.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_04: So I started doing some marketing for them.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_04: I had gone to school for marketing.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_04: I quickly realized during graduating during the recession and in the entertainment business that that was not going to work out very well.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_04: So I left the record label and ended up getting a job at a celebrity management company based in Nashville and then LA also.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_04: So we had offices both places.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_04: And I managed celebrities day to day um for A-list celebrities, very well-known um celebrities all over, athletes.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_04: Did that for them.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_04: They asked me at one point, hey, we have an NBA player.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_04: His publicist is going out.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think that you could just come in and do PR for him while she's gone for six weeks?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't know what PR was.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, yeah, sure, I can do that, I definitely can do that.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_04: I had been doing social media for some of the clients, really didn't go to school for communications, went to school for business.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_04: But I'm like, I'm I can figure this out.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_04: So while his publicist is out, they end up winning the NBA championship.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_04: He gets the ring, he's doing all the things.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_04: He was kind of a wild player, and he decides to auction off his ring.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm in the middle of this whole PR blitz of like, hey, this well-known NBA player is about to auction off his ring.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_04: I'm doing the press for it.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_04: He's doing all the things.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_04: So that was my first dipping my toe in the water of um PR.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_04: From there, I got hired on a publisher.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_04: So now Heshet, uh, it got bought up by Heshet, but I started a marketing with them too.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_04: Kind of same thing.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_04: Went there, was doing marketing for them.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_04: And then lo and behold, if about a year in, they're like, hey, we need an internal publicist.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think you can do PR?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_04: And we had signed some major authors and athletes who had written a book.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_04: And I said, Well, I did PR for this NBA player.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_04: I think I could definitely do it for you guys.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_04: So I just started doing marketing and PR at the same time for the publisher.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_04: And then just rose up through the ranks to run the PR department.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_04: So in my late 20s, I was the head of that department and left there feeling like I could run a book campaign in my sleep and started to PR from there.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_04: And so now we represent authors, athletes, and musicians turned authors, Netflix films, social justice initiatives, really anything in that entertainment space.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_04: But we do a lot of work with authors.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: What do you enjoy most about working with authors in their books?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, a lot of things.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's interesting to see because I've never had a desire to be an author, which I think is a good thing being on the not talent side and be able to push them forward.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_04: But just seeing the hard work, I mean, a lot of the times these stories have been in them for years, or it's taken them however long to get signed to a publisher to, and then the publisher puts them on a list at some point to put out the book.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_04: So the excitement that they have for their story and the passion.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, no one else is ever going to be as passionate about your story as you, the author, are.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_04: So seeing that passion and kind of latching onto that and helping put them in spaces where they probably could never get on their own because of our relationships, I think that's really special.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now you don't have to answer this because I'm gonna I want to put you on the spot a little bit, but how do you handle it as a as a person in PR when you have so much coming at you?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: You have so many emails that you've got to answer every day, phone calls, text messages, all these things.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: You've got a lot coming at you that I would think it would be really difficult to actually read through all the books of the people that you are connected with somehow.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: What are some things that you do sort of as a shorthand to familiarize yourself with somebody's message or their content or their book, like what without needing to spend all the time to read every single book?
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Are there some kind of tricks of the trade that that you do or that your colleagues do?
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, sure.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_04: That's a great question because you are very right.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_04: We get a lot of manuscripts coming at us saying, Will you even write a proposal for this?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_04: et cetera, et cetera.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_04: And I remember early in my career, I would read every single word of every book and write page-long press releases, but that's just not the day and age we're in anymore.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_04: As far as even press releases, they're so much shorter than when I started because news media doesn't have time to read long press releases usually.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so for me, um, publishers oftentimes put together like a tip sheet that they're using internally for sales purposes.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_04: So it's really the highlights, what the title is comparable to, um, who the author is comparable to, the book cover.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_04: So that I'll oftentimes just get that from a publisher and they'll say, Hey, can you write a proposal based on this?
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_04: Before they even a lot of times they don't even have the manuscript yet.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_04: Then once that's done, I ask for just the earliest manuscript I can get, even if it's not final.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_04: And I do read through quite a bit because I'm trying to pull out pitches from there.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_04: So what's newsworthy, what I could write into a short email or communicate even in a text message to my media contacts that's gonna resonate with the culture and what audiences want to hear.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_04: So um I read quite a bit, but the tip sheets are really and the sales sheets are really important.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_04: And a lot of times they have that exact same information, most of it on Amazon.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, their internal editorial team are writing those for Amazon copy.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_04: So that's really helpful too.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's interesting.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's really, really interesting.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I just I guess it has to be really hard to keep up with all that.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: So are there some things that that authors could do when they are actually crafting their book or putting together a book proposal?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Sort of thinking about PR on the front end of the book creation process rather than sort of writing the book and and creating the whole thing and then trying to figure out, okay, how do we actually pitch this or market this?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: Are there are there some things from your perspective as a PR expert that authors could do on the front end of the of their books to make it easier for PR on the backside of it?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I think for me, if it's a nonfiction book, and even if it's fiction, thinking about what you're seeing on the news, what the world at large is talking about, what um, and it doesn't have to be political, it doesn't have to be about a certain event at that moment, like an election.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_04: It can be, you know what?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_04: I think this book that I'm writing, I have I'm a chef and it's about donuts, and we have a national donut day coming out in May or whatever day that is.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_04: Like I would love for my book to launch in that month.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_04: That's perfect for PR because we can say, hey, the chef, she's the queen of donuts, and she wrote this book about donuts.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_04: And there are a lot of times for me, we're doing a lot of lifestyle segments.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_04: So, like the Good Morning America is the today shows, they're looking for something that's light, that's fun to balance out all the heaviness of the news.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_04: So um, if you can think about maybe there's an event or a holiday or just um something that's really catchy and hooky that maybe other people aren't thinking about that you're an expert in.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I recently am working on a proposal for someone who just focuses on mental health.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_04: And we have mental health month in, I believe it's May.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm like, you need to release this book in May.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_04: You're an expert in this, you have personal experience in this.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_04: This is the perfect time, and that's what your book's all about.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_04: So just thinking about those types of things, like what corresponds to your book as far as a calendar.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Are there certain times of the year that are that obviously if your book is a topical kind of book and that like if you have a book about fatherhood, obviously Father's Day is a great book.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you have a holiday themed book, Christmas is obviously you know the best time.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: But in general, are there some times of the year that authors should avoid launching books in general?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like you probably don't want to launch a book on like Christmas Day or something like that.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: Are there some other times like that?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_04: For media, it's um we tend to see media kind of disappear or have everything pre-taped, starting around Thanksgiving and going all the way through January 2nd.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_04: So I think any book in December, unless it's you know a specific Christmas book and you're doing all the media before December is really tough.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_04: So you kind of see media go dark at that time.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_04: So those book launches are pretty hard.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_04: And even like early January, because media are just coming back, they're just getting their feet under them from all the emails they're getting.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_04: So I would say early January, uh, early December, not great for that.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, summer can be hard unless it's like a beach read fiction, because again, a lot of the shows go on hiatus.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_04: They're not like if you're looking to be on like daytime talk, well, they're not there and they're not coming back till September.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_04: So I think like spring and fall are the best times.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and then I've seen this recently with actually the Britney Spears book.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of people that were supposed to be watching in that same week or month, they their publisher held or pushed their book because they're like, okay, when we see these big titles and then we know when they're gonna release, we don't want to compete with them.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_04: So sometimes that will happen too.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's interesting.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm sure it is kind of it has to be entertaining from your perspective.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes when people have certain expectations for especially big releases or celebrity books, where sometimes you think it's gonna be this big, huge thing and then people don't really care about it that much, or vice versa, people don't expect much and then it ends up blowing up.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Do you see those kind of surprises on a regular basis?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_04: Um, more the former.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, like I said, with authors, you guys have spent your whole sometimes years and years building this.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_04: So it's a really big deal, and it is a big deal.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_04: But for whatever's happening in the media at that time, especially in election season, or you know, something breaks out, it's breaking news, that can really hinder your book launch and the media that you're getting because all of a sudden media is just covering this one thing.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_04: So sometimes I see where there might have been even promises of media, and the producers and bookers had every intention of having you on, and then something kind of sideswipes that and you just can't.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_04: That's the that's the earned media part where you're not paying for a slot.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_04: So you might get bumped and you might never get back on.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_04: So that I see more often where it's an author and even the PR team thinking, like, yes, this is a sure thing, this is gonna happen, and then it doesn't.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_04: But there are the surprises where certain things work in your favor.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_04: So the writer strike has been interesting.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_04: I just had a client and she wanted, you know, some daytime talk.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_04: Well, a lot of them weren't working because of the writer strike, the actor strike.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_04: So, with a podcast, um, one of the ones she wanted was in LA.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_04: And I talked to the executive director, and he's like, we don't have writers running this podcast right now.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_04: So we're having a hard time.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_04: But what we think we can do is just have her on the entire season instead of us having to write every episode with different clients.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_04: So why don't we just have your client on for 13 episodes?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_04: So she got this huge podcast, millions of listeners because of the writer's strike in a way, because they said, okay, it's gonna be easier for us just to write one show with this one client versus writing all these different shows for this season.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_04: So that worked out in our favor.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_04: So sometimes these little things work out, but then sometimes like the writer's strike on the negative side was people weren't getting on daytime TV because no one was even working.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_04: So I mean, you kind of got to roll with the punches with PR because it's not paid.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_04: That means there's no guarantee, but there are some nice surprises in there.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, that's a good, I'm glad you mentioned that this is a good transition, but to this next question I wanted to ask, which uh which is give us kind of a breakdown, if you would, about what exactly is paid versus unpaid media?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: What is really the job of PR?
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe give us like a short crash course into what this is for people who are not really familiar with this whole world.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and it is a complicated, confusing world.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_04: So PR falls under marketing.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_04: So marketing can include advertising.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_04: With advertising, you have a budget, you say, hey, I want to run this ad.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_04: This is what I want the ad to look like.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_04: This is where I want the ad to show up, whether that's on a website, whether um you're paying for an advertori in a magazine or what have you.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_04: You're paying for it, you're guaranteed, you know you're gonna get it.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_04: Earned media, which is publicity, there's no guarantee.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_04: So, like I was just saying, you can we can have signed on the dotted line, you can be in New York in the green room, and something, some breaking news happens and you're bumped, and that's it.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_04: So there's no, we don't pay our media contacts to have you on, which the great set about that is audiences trust PR more than advertising a lot of times because they know that it's genuine, that there's no incentive to have you on, other than it's a great story.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_04: So that's the difference.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um, in earned media, it's I think you know, there it's confusing because you're like, oh, I'm paying a PR firm.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_04: So I should definitely get on these things.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_04: And you're paying the firm for the relationships and likely the opportunity that you should get on more than you could get on yourself, which I always say that when I see like master classes in PR where you can do your own PR, I totally agree.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_04: You could probably write your own press release.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_04: You cannot cultivate the relationships that publicies have.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_04: You're not gonna be able to text a producer at the Today Show and get an answer, whether it's a yes or no, you just don't have those relationships.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_04: So that's what you're paying for with publicity is the chance to be on maybe a Good Morning America or a big podcast that you want to be on that you have a great story, but you need the relationship to get in.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_04: So that's uh a little bit of the difference between paid and earned.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_04: So marketing, advertising versus uh publicity.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: I know sometimes authors get a little agitated about, well, I would love to get a spot on this show or that show or whatever.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but but I think sometimes they don't look at it from the perspective of the people running those shows where you you have to have kind of a shorthand.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: You have to have a small group of trusted people, people obviously like yourself, who can do all this leg work and who can cultivate the relationships with authors or celebrities or athletes or whatever.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_00: And they can't maintain this connection of 50,000 people, you know, so that I I don't see any way that this would even be manageable from a producer standpoint if they didn't have PR professionals sort of vetting people and acting as kind of a gateway for the people that they would want in their show.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, exactly.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_04: And they're, you know, we're a trusted resource for journalists and producers, bookers, editors, what have you.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_04: And when they see our emails pop up, we know like they're gonna want a certain type of person.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe this is what they're trying to cover right now.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_04: They're gonna open that email.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_04: But like you're saying, anyone and everyone who's emailing them, because it's easy to find email addresses these days, they're not even gonna open the email.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_04: They're just not gonna so yeah.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_04: I the only exception I ever see to that is like a viral social media moment.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of times those producers will knock down your door to find you to have you on.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but also, I mean, those moments are very rare.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can imagine.
• 20:06
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• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now back to the conversation.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: What is the difference, would you say, between so when when you're working with authors, let's say, what is the difference between a successful author and an unsuccessful author in terms of making really good use of PR?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you see, do you work with some authors who you're like, man, I wish they would do XYZ thing, they would this would really help those their success, versus author B, who does all the things that you would really like them to do and that are kind of helping their own success.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: What's the difference between those two types of authors?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so my favorite type of author is the author who will say yes to anything we present to them because we're also looking at the media opportunities, whether they're coming to us for our clients or whether we're going out and getting them, making sure it's a good fit for them.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_04: So just trusting your PR team that they're bringing you the best opportunities.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_04: There's a reason you should do them.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_04: My favorite authors and the authors that I found really successful are the ones that say yes to pretty much anything.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_04: And I found like a lot of times more of my like celebrity authors, they really will.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_04: They will make time to do it, it doesn't matter what radio show it is, they're gonna do it.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, I really I appreciate the ones that are willing to do anything and Everything because you never know who's listening.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_04: And I have a really great client right now who's major in the music business, number one hit songwriter, wrote a book about his life.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_04: And I mean, he is willing to do anything and everything.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_04: And this man writes with everyone big for songs.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, he he doesn't have to do anything really.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_04: And he just is like, hey, what do you think about this?
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_04: He's presenting me ideas, like, what about this magazine?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_04: I just got him a feature in a huge music magazine because he was like, Hey, I read this, and a lot of songwriters read this.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_04: Do you think you could pitch me?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_04: I'm like, yeah, of course I could do that.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_04: But he's willing to do anything and everything because of that.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_04: There was a story in his book about being adopted, which really wasn't the main.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, a lot of it was about him becoming a songwriter.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_04: We pulled that out, pushed him out for National Adoption Month.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_04: And he was in the Capitol last week meeting with senators talking about adoption.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_04: That blossomed into like doing all of these like songwriting book tour with like very well-known people in DC.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like you never know these little things that the PR team is pulling out that can blossom into something way bigger than you thought.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that human connection can really make a big difference, even though somebody can have all the accolades, all the awards, all the big contacts and whatever, but there's something about their story that really connects on a human level.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: I imagine as a PR person, you really grab onto those things because that's something that people can latch on to emotionally.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: And they that's very relatable to even somebody who's really, really successful.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_04: Mm-hmm.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's it's those personal stories.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_04: And and I think my songwriter turned author client does that really well, talking about his success and how he got there, but also what his childhood was like and growing up and learning he was adopted and all of those things.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_04: So that really has resonated with a lot of audiences.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_04: And like I said, you never know who's listening to a show or watching a show or reading an article who's gonna propel you into something bigger.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of producers are reading other news pieces and then they're looking for things that they want to cover.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_04: So you never know.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_04: You might read an article that has you featured in it that you thought, okay, it's not the biggest article, and then you're on a morning show.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_04: So that happens still.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Are there some major mistakes that authors make when it comes to PR?
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you want them to be open to trying new things, like you mentioned a second ago.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: But are there any other mistakes that you have seen authors make that you would recommend other authors try to avoid with their PR, even with book launches or book marketing, anything, anything at all?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I think one thing is a lot a lot of your marketing, advertising, social media all needs to be working together.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_04: So I think trying to silo off and saying, okay, well, I want to be on the New York Times bestseller list and the Today Show, but you have no social media presence.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_04: It's like there's only so much that a PR team can do.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_04: You really need to, before any of these launches happen, have your social media working for you, have your marketing team deciding what ads are going to push out, having your PR team decide what's your media wish list, what they're gonna push out, everything working together because you can't just rely on one or the other thing anymore.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_04: And socials are really important because on our end, our contacts, like let's just keep talking about today's show, they're looking at your social media saying, okay, are their followers going to watch this show?
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_04: How many followers do they have that currently don't watch today's show that we can get to watch today's show?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_04: So it's kind of reciprocal now.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_04: They're looking to see how many people you can bring to them.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_04: Now that's not to say you have to have the biggest.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_04: I've had clients with 300 followers on Twitter get on Good Morning America, but that's the exception.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_04: Oftentimes they're wanting experts in their field with a larger social following.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_04: So well in advance, getting your socials going, getting on that speaker circuit you want to be on, and then pairing PR into that is really helpful.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_04: And just relying on PR for that, it's just probably in the amount of time you have for a book launch not going to equal what you're thinking.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: How should authors measure the ROI of PR?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: And and I know everybody's different, everybody wants something different probably out of the process.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: But but if somebody's going to hire a PR expert or a PR team, what kinds of metrics should they be looking at in terms of ROI on what they're investing in?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's a great question and a very complicated one for PR because it's not marketing.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_04: So at least for our clients, um they're looking at the quantity of media.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_04: Some of them are just, you know, wanting a lot of podcasts.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_04: And it could be a number that the publisher will give us, like they want 75 podcasts.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_04: They don't care what they are, just give us 75.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_04: So sometimes people are just looking for that quantity.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_04: And then some of our clients are just looking for the quality.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_04: Like we don't care if we're only on four podcasts.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_04: We like to be on these four.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_04: And that's always our goal is to get them where they want to be.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_04: And again, I always say it's not guaranteed.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_04: So that's the interesting part.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_04: We usually send a report with at the end of all of our work, here's how many eyeballs are looking at this magazine and listening to this podcast.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_04: So they can see the cumulative amount of like eyeballs, ear ears that have been listening to um their story.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_04: But um, yeah, so it kind of depends from person to person if if it's we only want to be on these four things or we want this number of media.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_04: And that's kind of the goals that we we go for.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_04: For us, you know, it's interesting.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_04: ROI is just like I said, a very complicated question because we've had clients on the view who did not sell one more book than when they weren't on the view.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_04: But for them, it was more important to be on the view.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_04: They wanted that for their website, that they could do those things versus selling books.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_04: Now, some people are like, I don't care about being on the view if I'm not going to sell a single book.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_04: Like my goal is book sales.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_04: And so we would try to work on different things for that.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: See, that makes a lot of sense because I feel like a lot of times authors just kind of need to stop for a moment and think about what is it that you really want out of this process?
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'd even do that as a ghostwriter.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: I that's actually my very one of my very first questions I ever asked people is what do you want from this book?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because what you want from this determines what kind of book we're gonna write and how we're going to position it and frame it and how we're gonna tell the stories and how long the book is and how long the you know, the style and all those kinds of things.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, gosh, that's that's such a great question.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm glad that that's a common question across industries.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and it's tough with, like I said, with ROI and PR.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_04: I think every publicist and they hear RI, they're like, please don't talk about this.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_04: So it is complicated, but you have to have some metric for success.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_04: And so we like like you're talking about, we need to drill down with authors even before you get to us and say, what is my goal?
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_04: Is my goal sales?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_04: Is my goal more notoriety?
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_04: What's my goal here?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_04: Because those are two very different media approaches.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Morgan, I want to respect your time.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I really appreciate you taking time to be a guest today.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: This is I've learned a ton.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um I always love talking with people on this show.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of my very favorite things to do.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I just sort of on behalf of the author community, I want to thank you for your incredible work that you're doing.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I'm so I don't actually remember how we connected.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think somebody introduced us.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Writers Fest 2022.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay, that's that's right, that's right.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh sometimes I forget how I connected with people.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, that was that was such a fun conference, and I'm I'm sure we'll meet up again at some point.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but kind of to close this out, can you let people know how they can get in touch with you if they're interested in talking with you further, maybe about having your help, or maybe if they have follow-up questions or or whatever the case may be.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: How can they do that?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_04: Of course.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, you can send an email to me, which is morgan at twopr.com.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_04: Morgan at 2pr.com.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, you can connect with me on LinkedIn, Morgan Cankleany Mitchell.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_04: Our website is 2pr.com, twr.com.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_04: And there's um forms in there that you can, if you're interested in being on our newsletter or which we send out tips on there, or prospective clients, there's two different forms there.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_04: So those are the easiest ways.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_04: I'm on Twitter too.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_04: Twitter now turned to X.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: So okay, so I have to ask you this before I wrap up.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: From a PR standpoint, yeah.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: What is your opinion about the the transition from Twitter to X?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I just saw this interesting stat that said like users have just really plummeted.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_04: Like no one's really using that.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of people, I think the general population didn't use Twitter that much, anyways.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_04: But for media producers, editors, bookers, publicists, we use Twitter all the time.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_04: Like it was big, oh yes, it was our biggest pretty much social media forum.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_04: So like we all connected on Twitter.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_04: Now that it's X, I don't know.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like I connect more with producers and bookers on LinkedIn, but used to be like if you were in media or on the PR side, you were on Twitter.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_04: It's changed a lot.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_04: So I mean, even just looking at that stat the other day, which is like users and engagement, which I never really expected a lot of my clients, like authors to be on as much.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_04: There was just other forums for them, whether it's Facebook or Instagram, TikTok, depending on their age.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_04: But for media, it's kind of shocking how many people have gotten off.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_04: So now I use LinkedIn a lot more to connect with if I'm trying to get someone booked.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_04: I used to just tweet at them if I didn't know them.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but now I'll use LinkedIn.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_04: So it is kind of interesting how that's changed in the past.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 31:58
  unknown: Yeah.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: I just saw somebody asking, I think it was actually on Facebook the other day.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: How much longer are we gonna have to type X formerly Twitter?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Can we just like make a decision about it one way or the other?
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Does another therapist decide or something?
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, and it's still called tweeting.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm like, okay, this is very confusing.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: I did get an insight, so I'm listening through Elon Musk's um not autobiography, the book that Walter Isaacson recently wrote.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and he's got an obsession with X, like Space X, like a lot of things in his history have been called X.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: He has like this weird obsession with X.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I was like, Oh, that explains it.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't actually make any business sense to change Twitter to X, in my opinion.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: But he didn't ask me.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure my opinion, you know, that's not on his radar screen.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: So my gosh.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_04: And I think he's named his kids some interesting names with like X in them.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so hey, whatever.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: How fascinating.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_04: I I did not put that together, like the SpaceX, until you said that.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, it is.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_04: I changed it on my website from the little bird to the X, and the web team was like, All right, well, we'll do it.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, whatever.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's all good.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you again.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: This has been an absolute blast.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so appreciative of all that you do.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_04: You're welcome.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: To serve authors.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: This has been uh really, really fun.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you again.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_04: Great, thanks for having me.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I hope you enjoyed that conversation.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: That was an absolute blast.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: I took a ton of notes while I was talking with Morgan, and I hope that you did too.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: And more so than that, I hope that you do a couple of other things.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, I hope that you check out her website, which is twopr.com.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Again, that's TWOPR.com.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if you are in the market for hiring a PR expert, she is definitely the person to get in touch with.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: She's very, very good at what she does.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: She's been doing it a while, and she can really, really help you with your book marketing and PR.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: Number two, I encourage you to put into practice what you've learned on this episode.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: I know that it's super easy when you listen to podcast episodes to just kind of listen and then you sort of forget what they talked about and 24 hours later you have no memory of actually what you learned.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to encourage you not to do that.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: When you're listening to podcast episodes, whether it's my show or somebody else's, I challenge you to write down three things that you can put into practice in the next 48 hours.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you will make a very simple habit of doing that, I promise that you will be so much more effective in your writing, in your publishing, and everything that you're doing to try and build your writing business.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're overwhelmed with information every day from social media and podcasts, books, and blogs and email and all this stuff.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: So if you just identify even just one or two or three very simple things you can take action on in the next day or two after you hear them, I promise you it'll make a massive difference.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, many thanks to Morgan for taking time to be a guest on today's episode, especially with her busy family life and PR schedule.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, I also want to thank you, the listener, for taking time to check out this episode today.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Before I go today, I want to give a huge thanks to a couple of our sponsors.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: The first is Thumbprint Creative.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you've heard the saying, don't judge a book by its cover, but in the book world, it is absolutely not true.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: People do judge the quality of the book by its cover.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, the cover design is the very first thing that people notice about a book.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why my graphic designer of choice is Christy Griffith, who is the owner of Thumbprint Creative.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: I've worked with Christy for years, and she's designed covers and interior layouts for my own books, my ghostwriting client books, as well as a lot of books for friends that I've sent her away.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: Christy works really closely with you to design a layout that perfectly captures the theme and the genre of your book.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: Visit go thumbprint.com to learn more and to connect with Christy.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: And if you'd like a personal introduction to Christy, if you're interested in working with a great graphic designer, just shoot me an email at Kent at the profitable rider.com.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: I would be happy to make a personal introduction.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Also, want to give a huge thanks to our other sponsor for today, which is There is No Such Thing as Writer's Block, the brand new book from my friend and business coach Honore Corter.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: If you've been dreaming of being more productive in your writing or you want to grow your writing business, Honore can really help you learn the secrets to keeping the words flowing.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: You'll learn what's really blocking you, the value of building your writer tribe, how to become the writer you've always dreamed of being, and so much more.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: I really encourage you to pick up this book.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter if you are brand new to writing and brand new to business, or if you've been writing and maybe you've had a business for decades, this book seriously, I know when I have podcast sponsors, I know that I talk them up and I say, check this out, check that out.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but I want you to know a couple things.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: Just before I wrap up this episode, I hadn't planned on saying this, but I'm gonna go ahead and share this.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have sponsors on the show that I don't believe in.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Whenever you hear a sponsor on this podcast, it's because I've connected with them personally and I really, really like their product or service, and I personally use it.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I just want you to know that.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: Second of all, this book in particular, There's No Such Thing as Writer as Writer's Block by Honore Corter, is a really, really good book.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I told her recently this is like one of my I mean, she's written dozens and dozens of books.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it's one of my top three favorite books of hers of all time.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: The book is seriously really, really good.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't matter who you are or where you are on the writing journey, you're going to get a lot out of this book.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: I promise you.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: There's a link in the show notes to grab your copy from Amazon.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: I highly encourage you to do that.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: I promise you're gonna love it.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: Alright, my friend, as always, thanks for listening, and I'll see you next time.