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An Unexpected Ally & Stronger Than Blood - Towers of Midnight chapter 41-42 - EP572 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast. So the
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: time change has thrown everybody off today, but here we are, yep,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: back at it.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Welcome to daylight savings time, the bullshit half of the year.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: We recorded last week, right, we missed the week before.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, last week we recorded forty chapter forty.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Last time we did Paren making the hammer. This time
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: we're doing Paren using the hammer, which is an awesome seed.
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: It's quite satisfying. Paren just laying about him with this
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: hammer is if.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: You got it, you got to use it. So much
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: of what we're going to do today is pay off, right,
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Like today is a payoff day.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Dope, I mean yeah, checking stuff off of that lift.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: With setup, right. Unlike the show, which had a lot
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: of payoff without any setup. This is like, Okay, we've
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: been setting these things up for a long time and
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: you know, ching ching, ch' ching, here's your tash, here's
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: your payoff, here's your slaughter with the hammer.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: Yet by r finally dies aha decades of setup being
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: paid off. Yeah, No, it's good. It's good. Sanderson is
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: knocking it out of the park for this, and Gowen
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: is dumb. Gowen makes it for almost a whole chapter
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: not making a mistake, and then right at the end
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: he makes a mistake and dooms everything and cements his
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: reputation as the worst.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Now he has a chance to It's not like a
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: mistake he can't back out of. He could have not
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: put those rings on.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Sure, sure, he still has a chance to back out,
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: but he makes a very big step down the path
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: of ruining everything.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: After thinking about how he's not going to do that anymore.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: So annoying, but also we get Lamb finally accepting that
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: he's gonna be the King of malk here riding with
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: the Golden Crane to tarm and guide on like again,
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: set up that has been building since book one.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: And the merger of the White Cloaks underneath Parent's banner,
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: which has also been building since book one, Right, like
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: all of these things that are just like, yes, finally
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: we have accomplished our goal. Now we can fight the
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: last battle, which is like, this is the setup for
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: the last battle, which is the next book.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is yeah, not Sanderson making it a
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: pole cloth. This is Sanderson taking all those breadcrumbs and
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: reassembling them into the loaf of bread that Jordan always
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: was building us up to see and yeah, it's the
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: sander Lanche, except that it's all in service of getting
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: us in the next book. Like it is the sander Lanche.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: But the conclusion is that we are now ready for
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: the next book to start. That's the inclusion of Revelting too.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: But we have to really wrap up the non last
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: Battle plot lines right in order to make the last
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: book the Last Battle, which you know, there's a few
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: that get wrapped up in the beginning of it, right,
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: But like, for the most part, that book is the
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: fight between the dark and the light, and you have
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: to have everything set up before you step into that.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: And this is what we're doing, is like, and so
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: in that way, it's a really good sander Lanch because
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: it's like it's almost concluding half of the story, the
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: first half of the story, right, which is the personal
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: journeys of a lot of these characters.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's good, it's satisfying. I'm excited for these
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: two chapters today.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: And this is chapter forty one, an unexpected ally and
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: it's the White Cloak sunburst as the chapter symbol.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: Because this is Paren rescuing the white Cloaks, so they
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: deserve to be the symbol, I guess.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: Glod ran with his shield raised high. Bourne Hall joined him,
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: also holding a shield and tossing aside his lantern. As
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: those unnatural lights flared in the air, neither spoke. The
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: hail of arrows would begin. Momentarily they reached the horse pickets,
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: where a pair of nervous grooms handed over their horses.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: Gall had lowered his shield, feeling terribly exposed as he
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: swung onto stouts back. He turned the horse and got
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: the shield back up. He could hear the familiar twang
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: of bows, distant arrows snapping as they rained down. None
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: fell near him. I think that's all just born hold
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: thinking that he's going to get attacked. But of course
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: they're shooting at the traulis not at.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: Him, right, He's like, here's the thwap, and he's expecting
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: to hear the impact on the ground near him, in him,
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: In his shield right and hitting the shields like.
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: With the timing's wrong, like I'm not hearing that, so
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: you know what, And then you get that lovely reveal
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: of no, he was always going to aim at the
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: people who you didn't believe were coming to murder you, right,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: and then we see you know, like the Amadesians being like, wait,
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: trallcks are real, right, as it's is very much like
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: a refresher like winter night in Book one, right of
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: just like these masters aren't real, but they're killing us, right,
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: like we didn't believe they were real, and now we're
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: wrestling with our own mortality as we learned that nightmares
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: can be made flesh. And yeah, parent parents shows up
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: ready to stab the monsters in the face. It's quite
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: quite the ally move.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: We've become the very world weary travelers, right, we forget
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: that there are people who live in this giant world
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: who don't have traveling, who don't have gateways, who don't
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: have is and I paying their way or are willing
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: to do what Rand did random Matt did to survive. Right,
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: Traveling sucks in this world. And people from RFL have
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: never come near the borderlands, and no trucks have been
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: in the south Lands. Right, it's just yeah, this is
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: a country yokel seeing a draft, you know, covered in
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: lemurs for the first time, right, Like, it's just yeah, exactly,
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: It's like going to the circus and discovering like crazy
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: crazy stuff, like oh my god, I didn't think those
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: animals were real. I didn't believe. And that was true
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: all the time up until you know, modern photography and
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: modern plains. Right, people didn't believe that wild animals from
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: Africa or Sri Lanka or Australia existed because they're just
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: so far out of of the experience that you would have,
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: and like you might get a skeleton and that might
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: help you believe, but seeing them in the wild is
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: just not even feasible for most people.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, this is a world in which traveling
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: ten miles in a day is a pain in the
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: ass for most people. And yet just because our core
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: cast of characters from the middle of nowhere have learned
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: how to world hop and our fancy kings and queens,
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: doesn't mean that every other country yokle has had a
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: similar growth arc. Like, yeah, most people still live in
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: a world where traveling ten miles is a massive commitment.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: And yeah, tarlocks have not been ravaging the countryside below
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: the borderlands. That's like part of why the border lands
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: are the border lands, Like, that's what they do, right,
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: RFL protects Amadisia. That's kind of like a thing that
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: is the layout of the of the continent, so you know,
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: and it's you know, Gallad shouldn't be as shocked by
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: this as he is. He knows he should know, but
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: he's still a prince, and maybe he doesn't quite appreciate
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: the depths to which his education has changed his perspective
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: on the world compared to you know, the people who
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: barely graduated high school that are serving under him.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: And then I love this exchange between Galad and Buyar
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: where Buyer essentially says, yes, this is exactly what happened
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: to the Two Rivers. He showed up and God's like, wait,
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: he's killing as many trollics. This wouldn't if he had
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: this many trollics. Why wouldn't he just use the trollics.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: This whole situation doesn't make sense. And you're saying this
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: is exactly like in the Two Rivers. And I can
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: see him thinking to himself, maybe he did the right
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: thing in the Two Rivers. Maybe he's not a dark
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: friend exactly, he is just right. Maybe Buyer is full
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: of shit like this, this is exactly what I saw. Okay,
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: then I'm not seeing the same thing, so your testimony
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: isn't good anymore. Like I think this has as much
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: to do with him like letting Parent off at the
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: end of this chapter as Paren rescuing him. It's just
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: like the witness being completely unreliable.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: Right, This proves that the witness is in fact blowing
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: smoke up your ass completely. And yeah, and then you
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: get the quintessential moment of every accusation is an admission
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: where Byrus says his mind is sick and twisted, and
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, buyer, you're the one who has pretzel
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: logic happening here. Parent has a very straightforward, easy to understand,
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: protect the humans at all costs strategy, and you are
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: pretzeling to make that into some sort of weird game
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: like come on, dude.
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: But that's what happens when you're in a cult that
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: believes something that's not true. You have to convince yourself
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: of lots and the amount of twisted logic that you
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: end up doing. It's very easy. That's why people who
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: can get out of cults very easily fall into another
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: cult or fall into another belief system like that, because
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: your sense of what's real is so badly warped by
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: essentially believing something that can't be true. Yeah, yeah, and
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: like there's just study after study after studies shows people
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: who were raised in a very religious way often or
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: much more susceptible to being tricked and lies in Charlatan's.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: And if you get really fervently convinced of something, you're
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: gonna your sunt cost fallacies like times ten. When you
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: make it like a really big, fervent part of your
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: personality and you get like a lot of community and
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: that like religious feeling inside.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: I was gonna say the community is a huge part
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: of that too.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, being convinced of something like intellectually is one thing.
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: Having it be your sense of self and how you
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: relate to others is like, yeah, you're gonna you're gonna
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: brain pretzel to justify that because of the sunt costs
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: so much harder.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: And look at the White Cloaks that are just together
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: as a fighting unit of all men all the time. Yeah,
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: Like there's this incredible amount of community that's going to
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: keep them involved.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: And from the way that a lot of them talk
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: about like what they do, like in the Dome of
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Truth and the reading the book this and all their hierarchy,
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Like I gotta imagine that they have a lot of
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: like religious service type things that like do really bond
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: them with more than just the trauma of skirmishing with bandits,
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: Like they do a lot to have a cohesive mind together.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is the whole problem with Gollid, Right,
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: Gollic comes at it having read the book before he
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: joined the organization, and so he holds them to the
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: standards of the book when everybody else is holding the
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: standards of the organization. And so he comes in and goes, no, no, no.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: The book says, you know, be kind to your neighbors.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: What the fuck are you doing?
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: They're like, we're doing our weekly routine that makes us
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: feel warm and cozy inside that involves torturing children from
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: a nearby village. What's your problem? Or whatever it is
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: that they do.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: So we sort of end that POV with him going
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: how did how the one thing that kind of convinced
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: me that maybe parents are bad guys? He showed up
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: at just the right time. How did he know? And
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: then we go to the POV of parent and faila
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: going how did you know, at which point we get
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: a paragraph long of him going it makes sense. The
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: dome the distractions, like basically all the stuff that kept
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: that we know about that was trying to get his
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: army in that place at that time to be ambushed.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: Right, and there's ruins, there's a portal stone. That's how
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: that's happening. Yeah, he explains everything that we've worked out
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: because it's Sanderson. And then Oleandra has this great moment
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: where she's where so parents says, you know, it's probably
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: Forsaken behind this an Oleandra like shit's an actual brick.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: It was like, oh, forsaken. We can't deal with a
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: forsaken parents, Like it's the last battle. What did you
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: think was gonna happen.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm buddies with a dragon reborn, you think like
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: the yeah, of course we're gonna deal with the Forsaken.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: And in the same way that it's just a weave,
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: they're just people.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I mean, as we see with Samarog like
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: that's a huge part of the mystique that they themselves
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: know they're holding up like they are just people.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: Is that hero worship is a big part of that
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: power that the stories that are told to children and
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: the fact that you know else you know, Grendel's going
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: to come for you if you're a bad boy, that's
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: a big part of their mystique and their power right now.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: I think it's a lot of why Masana thought she
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: could go up against Agwayne in The Tower and the Dreams,
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: She's like, I'm one of the Forsaken. I'm one of
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: the thirteen most deadly scary people in the world, Like
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: don't you know who I am? Right, Like that kind
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: of thing, and it's like I choose to not give
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: a shit because I am the White Tower.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: It kind of reminds me a lot of the urban
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: fantasy I've read have this element of in order to
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: not offend anybody. I feel like urban fantasy said has
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: this attitude that if enough people worship something, the magic
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: makes it happen. Yes, and so I'm not necessarily not
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: to offend anybody, but like just just it's a way
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: to take any legend you want from any culture and say, oh,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: enough people have decided to worship this thing that it
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: becomes real and that's how magic works, or.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: Like invent new gods if you just get enough people
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: together to believe in something.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I didn't. Didn't Stevenson do that one with
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: his gods?
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: That was Gamen that did American gods gaming.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Sorry, yeah, gaming, Yeah.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: The whole Like the old gods from Europe are losing
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: power and the new gods of technology and money and
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: stuff are rising because that people's attention has shifted. Yeah,
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: that's a conceit I've seen in many, many, many different
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: fantasy contexts.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: And here's Masana being like and this one and right right, yeah, exactly, exactly. No,
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: this is not not one of those stories. You don't
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: get power just because people worship you or are scared
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: of you. That in no way, and I mean unless
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: you're Intel runri odd, but then there's just a nightmare
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: version of you walking around right.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: Totally, And yeah, paren has that down homey, earthy perspective
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: to be like, well, I mean everyone puts on their
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: pants one leg at a time, right, So.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: And once again we have no idea who's jumping these
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: trolcks in. They're strong, they're male, but not terribly so,
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: and they're not joining the battle. And I don't think
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: we ever get any more information on who that person is.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: Some sort of shadow android type person, someone who's not
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: good for much except creating transit, and that's what they're
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: used for, and we don't see them. They die in
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: a faceless mass somewhere along the way.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: Okay, I have to go with dread Lord, right, just
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: generic dread Lord. We're at that point in the story
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: where you can have just you know, there's enough sources
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: for evil channelers. We're just gonna assume it's one of
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: them and move on because I got nothing.
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then Fayul kissed his parent for being the
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: man she thought that he was.
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: Proving her right against Berlaine. Basically.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, She's like, I had a moment of doubt, and
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: you just made me feel very confident that that moment
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: of doubt was was not warranted. Thank you, Thank you,
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: pats on the head. Very good, wolf boy. Now go
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: off and kill.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Switch back to Glade, who's being overwhelmed by wave after
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: wave of trolis, and I like his little there's no
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: finesse in fighting against monsters like this. I'm like, that's
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: why parents so effective with his hand. It's just smash hard,
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: and that's you know, no matter how good of a
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: swordsman Gallotte is, it doesn't really matter with the weight
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: and the just overwhelming numbers of trollocks coming at him.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a different kind of war. He was
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: trained to think of war as you know, a couple
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: hundred men line up in neat rows and politely charge
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: at each other. And this is a machine gun. It's
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: just not the way that you've thought about war is
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: going to have to change. And yeah, he's trained with
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: men who had fought trollocks, but they were talking about
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: how to apply those lessons in a dueling context, not
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: how to survive being on a battlefield meat grinder like
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: he is not. I mean, he loses his horse, right,
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: his honor guard is rallying to him, and they are
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: clearly going to get crushed to death. Like it is
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: going sideways fast for him.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: We get some numbers, right, there's twenty thousand white Cloaks,
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: which is a huge army of men.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: That's a respectable army, even at the point that we're
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: scaling up in the books, like twenty thousand is still
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: a lot.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: Never actually walked over right. Os was highlighting that he
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: goes twenty thousand because she still only read the early books, right,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: so the numbers just haven't quite scaled up for her yet.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, it's pretty normal. I mean,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: and he's got I think he has what do they say,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: there's five thousand trollocks jumping in. We get that number
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: a little bit later.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I mean it's it's a lot of them.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: But you know, men who don't have magic, and don't
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: have ranged weapons, and don't have collective experience dealing with monsters.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: They're being mowed down, mowed down.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Right, He only now did he see how inexperienced many
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: of them were. He had some veterans, but the larger
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: group had fought mostly against unruly bandits or city militias.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: They're just bullies.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: They're bullies. They're just bullies.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: They're just small town cop bullies suddenly being asked to
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: deal with a real invasion of the CEA people.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: You know. Like, ah, and let's not forget that trallucks. Really,
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: you know, one trallock is worth two or three regular soldiers.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: We forget that. We're so used to, like our highly
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: effective warriors mowing down trolcks, you know, Land or Rand
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: or whatever.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but they're like eight feet tall, four hundred pounds,
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: heavily armored, wielding a sword as long as a person. Right,
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: They're monstrously huge. They've got claws and horns on top
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: of their weaponry. And so yeah, Galat finds himself fighting
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: on the front lines, being like, well, this isn't how
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: a general is supposed to do it. But things are
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: going sideways too fast for me to do general stuff.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: I just have to be in here fighting, and we
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: get this just amazing paragraph. I want to read it. Hold,
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: Galad bellowed, reaching the breaking section of the line he
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: had borne hauled on about fifty men, not nearly enough.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: We are the children of the Light. We do not
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: give before the shadow. It didn't work. Watching the disaster
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: play out, his entire framework of understanding started to crack.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: The children of the Light were not protected by their goodness.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: They were falling in swaths like grain before the Scythe
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: worse than that, some did not fight valiantly or hold
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: with resolve. Too many yelled in terror, running. They Amdesians,
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: he could understand. But a lot of the children themselves
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: were a little better. They weren't cowards, they weren't poor fighters.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: They were just men average. That wasn't how it was
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: supposed to be.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: It's never how it's supposed to be.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: The honor of war shredded by reality.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah no, this is probably one of my favorite things
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: about goll It is this realization of like, okay, like,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: it's not just if you're a good person, it's not
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: just if you believe in the right thing. It's actually
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: how prepared you are. It's how strategic you are, it's
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: the situation you're in.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: And it's how lucky you are, because this shit is
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: so much more random and brutal than you could ever
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: brain pretzel and intellectualize your way out of. Like, yeah,
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: you can't gain your way out of this. This is
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: not a gameable universe. You were born on top of
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: the pyramid, but the game is rigged for not you.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: Gravity doesn't care about your feelings. I don't know.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: I like, no, it really doesn't.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: Sort of the level of physics meets delusion that we're
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: going with here.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I like that he's experiencing both the physical
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: danger of everyone you know dying around him as well
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: as his worldview crashing down at the same time. And
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: then that parent should come in and be the light
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: and the path out and the rope thrown into the
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: water when he's having such a deep existential crisis is like, yeah,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: I feel like he's going to give parent a very
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: fair judgment on that trial and move on with his
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: life pretty quick and given and given that, I was
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: not surprised when he picked a battlefield judgment that was
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: incredibly reasonable, just given how much he's like, my entire
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: worldview is crumbling, not just my life prospects, but my worldview.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: And then parents like.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: And that's one of my favorite exchanges when he's like,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: I bet you expect that you're you're coming in and
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: rescue my life will help with the sentence, and parents
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, better fucking better. Like I love that exchange, right, like.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, when parent doesn't even say that almost is
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: under his breath like better, yeah, better fucking hell, and
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: yours like, oh, you're not that kind of honorable, you're
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: not lawful good, You're just good, okay, all right.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: Well, because because parents, you know, he doesn't care about
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: the law. He cares about what's right and bearing somebody's life,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: you know, Like yeah, that makes sense, that's what's right
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: to do.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Risking your own people's lives to save your enemies lives,
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: Like yeah, no, that should count for something.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: And it proves something too, that he's not a dark friend.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: He's in it, Like that's it's it's proof that it
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: was always a bullshit verdict.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which you know, I mean like we saw a
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: few paragraphs ago. Yeah, that factors into it. When Goal,
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: I was like, wait, this is exactly like at the
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: two rivers and.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: The whole Like, yeah, I killed two white cloaks, but
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: I just saved twenty thousand or you know, a percentage
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: of the twenty thousand.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Right, I made an effort to save twenty thousand and
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: saved a good chunk. Yeah, exactly, Like, yes, I have
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: fucked up, I have made mistakes, I have aired. I
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: need to have some amount of consummate punishment, but I'm
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: not the literal devil either, don't need capital punishment.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Ohthough he did kill a few more than two white cloaks,
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: we're just not gonna say that out loud.
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: Well, they still needed to be killed.
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: Gall meanwhile, is like, yeah, two you killed two. Yeah, yeah,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: for sure, and then we made mincemeat out of another two.
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: It would have been really funny if Gaul had gotten
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: parent to the side at one point and like, so
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: are we not gonna mention the five? However many it
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: was all right, so now we pu of you switch
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: back to Perrin, who is war god parent.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: Right, and just that like, wow, this is our was Arganda, Yeah,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Arganda being like this is such a great battle that
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: we're just able to fight with ease. We've got archers
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: to make sure that they're thinned out, We've got aschaman
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: to cover the gaps.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: The villains are perfect villains. We don't have to feel
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: bad about killing.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: Them, right, They're not like our countrymen who are just
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: fighting on the other side of the war. They're actually
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: evil people. This is wonderful and it's like and also
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: they're completely focused on the white clothes and kind of
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: trying to crush them while we just attack them from
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: the back.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's shooting fish in a barrel, but apparently
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: some people enjoy doing that.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, if you can imagine fighting trollcks your
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: whole life and how and like having friends slaughtered by
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: them and realizing that they're just these evil, evil creatures
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: and uh, finally getting revenge and being able to slaughter
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: them with abandon and in safety, like yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, technically these guys haven't been fighting trollocks their
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: whole lives because they are south Land generals.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, right, right, right, right, or for
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: the last year.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: Maybe, yeah, totally, And I mean, like Traloks have loomed
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: large over human history for the past three thousand years,
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: so like it's, yeah.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: I guess the revenge thing that's more of the Borderlanders
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: getting revenge.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: But yeah, but this is preemptive revenge because these guys
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: know that they're going to be fighting unwinnable waves of
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: these guys in like a few short months, so like
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: you know, it's revenge for what's coming.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: And there is that like, yeah, the more trollocks we
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: wipe out now, the better it's going to be for
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: the last battle. He's like, yes, I've lost a few soldiers,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: even if he is too many, but like, losing them
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: in this way is so much better than having to
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: face these trollocks in a desperate fight in the last battle.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah, he's learning that his hammer can seriously
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: blow trollocks away. Right, it's comfortably warm in his hand,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: but it's like sizzling and burning and exploding them away
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: from him. And so yeah, it's it's a really good
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: moment to be like, this is how easy it could
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: be if we all rolled natural twenties constantly. We won't,
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: but for now we're just going to have this moment.
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: And then Parent decides that it's too easy and the
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: white Cloaks are dying too much, and so then he
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: makes the game even harder and it still works out
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: fine because he's just he's a war god, like for once,
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: Matt's not the war god. You know, Parent has all
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: the war god energy for this fight.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Sorry, fifty thousand. I think I said five thousand trollocks earlier,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: fifty thousand, So it's twenty thousand white cloaks fifty thousand trollocks.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the trollocks were going to mop the floor
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: with them without breaking a sweat.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: It's like a two to one, two and a half
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: to one.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: And then Parent's like, not today.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: And so what follows just just a slaughter. I don't
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: know how much of that I really had to talk about.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: Just the Alshaman are taking down the MRD drawl, they're
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: you know, he this charge down through the shadow spawn
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: and essentially cuts them in half.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the main part is where Gallien is like,
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: why do you feel like you need to do this?
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: Why are you going to ride our force of people
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: down the hill and smash into this thing? Why are
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: you going to risk all of that? What do you
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: feel that you owe the white cloaks, that's like the
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: most important cause, Like I think all of us in
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: the audience are also thinking, like I don't know, Parent,
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: I feel like you've done a pretty good deed here
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: by holding the high ground, and like if they all die,
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: like I mean, you did your best, Like why you
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: got to escalate? What do you think you owe them?
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: And they're also not that valuable of troops.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: Right, Like yeah, and then Parent's just like it's the
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: right thing to do, and that's that's it. That's that's
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: his logic. He's down country boy, and he's got a
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: very simple moral compass. He doesn't like to see humans
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: being killed by monsters end of story, which I mean,
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know, given how much death of humans he's
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: seen at the hands of troles. If there's anyone in
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: this for revenge, it's gonna be Parent, given what happens
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: to not just his family, but all of the two
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: Rivers you know in book four.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's fine. He's a hero. He's rescuing these people.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as Gallian says, he's a strange man,
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: but one of honor.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: Let's go, Yeah, let's go.
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to argue, just going to raise my eyebrows.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: Just be like, you could you know, these people have
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: been in pain in your ass, you could let them die.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: And he's like, that's not who I am.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: And then we switched to goalad and he's thinking, if
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: the children of the light could not stand against darkness,
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: who could? And then the man you've been calling shadows
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: spawn for like the last six months, that that man
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: can stand against the darkness. That man has the power
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: to do what the children cannot. That man has the
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: honor to be protected by the light in a way
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: that the children have lost the mandate of centuries ago.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: Right, I was gonna say, anybody who hasn't become deluded
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: by their own you know, head of their ass because
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: they think they're just lights chosen one, right, Like they're
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: just the worst because they believe that they're going to win.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: And that belief means that they don't properly prepare.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Paren prepares. Paren is worried that he's going to
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: get people killed. Paren is confident that he'll do okay
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: as a leader, as long as he doesn't want to
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: be leader. It's completely different perspective.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: And in a lot of ways because he's Tavern, he
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: is chosen by the pattern. He is chosen by the light.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: Things do go his way, right, Like he literally is
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: the one person who you could say is chosen by
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: the pattern to have a predetermined beneficial outcome.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: It is kind of ironic there is a chosen one
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: in this equation, Like.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: That's kind of what Tavern is. Yes, it's plot armor,
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: but in the story it just means, yeah, you're you're
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: one of the chosen. Yeah, that not one of the chosen, Yeah,
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: the other kind of chosen, Yeah, chosen by the pattern on.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: So then, yeah, Gallad witnesses that gets thrown to the
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: ground and breaks his leg and Paren shows up to
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: save him personally, because you know, the plot armor is
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: strong with that one.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: Right, the broken leg. It's just one of those things
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: that like, oh my god, he broke his legs, so
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: Parent has to get him up on his horse. Like
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I I roll my eyes at that one.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: Look, it's fantasy trope. One oh one.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: It's just like it's very trophy.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I guess if his ankle breaks, it's
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: not like his you know, femur breaks or something, but
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: still right.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: But because of healing and because of the way you know,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: right now we have just channelers who can heal. It's
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: just like, oh and then it'll be healed in the
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: next chapter. And it's so it's literally the only point
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: of doing that is just for like this moment when
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: parent lifts him up onto the horse and is like,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: take my.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: Horse, yeah, exactly, so that way a lag can be rescued,
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: can be literally lifted up above the fray. And like,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: he can't argue that parent didn't save his life specifically
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: right right, not just his men's, not just his armies.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Him Golla just has to be a little bit of
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: a damsel in distress in this moment. That's all I know.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: I'm not mad about it. I don't mind the early
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: Blacksmith picking up the besmirched show slightly more wayfish swordsman
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: and putting him on his mixed Strong Wars. I'm not
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: mad about it.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: The bear in the twink, I'm not mad about it.
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: Say that one more time. I'm not mad about it.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: A little bit just sick, like a.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Little bit of enemies to bros friends.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's bros. That's the word you were going to
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: use there.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: Huh fuck bunnies.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: It's almost like they have a heated rivalry or something
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: going on.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Indeed, I don't know enough about that to make any
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: furthering jokes of that, but I will.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: Laugh as much as I know.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: I know it exists.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: And yes, I'm sure there's a little bit of fanfick
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: out there somewhere.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: I'm sure there is more than one fan pick. So
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: then yeah, we get the interaction about you know, affecting
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: the judgment and uh, parents says, be glad I didn't
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: leave you to them. You white cloaks have cosed me
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: nearly as much grief as they have. A Galad immediately
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: wants to laugh at that. It's like, yeah, there's there's
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: chemistry there. There's chemistry there.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, don't tell gall.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: Oh no no, no, no no, this is gonna get jealous,
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: and she would be right to stab Galod. But you know,
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: this is I think where we're getting. This is the
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: first layer of an unexpected ally, right, because Golod thinks
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: about you know, this is okay, this is I think
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: the true unexpected ally is born hauled because of the
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: stabbing buyer in the back thing.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: But the more obvious that's a good point.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Obvious interpretation is parent because Golad says, oh are we
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: allies now?
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: So you know, it's a pretty good multi layer.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: This is a good title for a chapter.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, definitely. But I like this, you know, realizing
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: that Abara was straightforward, He's like, really, he could see
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: someone setting up this plot in order to make him
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: an ally not this guy, but the bars just not
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: like that. He's like, he's like he finally believes what
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: everyone's telling him, which is he's just a straightforward dude
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: who's literally like he could have just killed us and
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: gotten rid of us. He had that opportunity multiple times.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: He could have just let us die. All he had
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: to do was nothing Like, this is not someone who's
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: gonna set up a clever back steam, back yard whatever.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: Backstabbing, scheming, back door arrangement.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: Those are the words I was trying to say, Yes,
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: thank you, it's not your brain. Yeah, words are hard,
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: so yeah, just the the And then so he gives
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: him the punishment of like, yeah, give give the families
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: money because like whatever, if they have families, which I
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: don't believe they do. Because they're fucking white cloaks, and
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: no one would fuck a white cloak.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: I'm assuming it's like their parents. That's that was what
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: I was because these are all like younger men, right,
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: presumably some of their parents or so like maybe their siblings.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: So but yeah, it's like just pay like a blood
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: price to their families whoever's left.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: And then go fight in last battle, which you were
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: going to do anyway, Yeah.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: Which is yeah, that is the kind of slap on
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: the wrist that paren needed in order to have full
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: closure on that situation.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: That's the time served.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly exactly, and it's you know, he did do
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: something for the men that he killed, you know, help
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: help their parents, being on a fixed income, have slightly
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: more money for insulin or whatever it is.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: And so in that moment, of course, by our heres
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: the judgment as which is he's proved innocent, and you
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: have the assassination attempt, which you know was by our
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: always a dark friend? Was he always an asshole? When
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: was he influenced by Grendall? If he was influenced by Grendall,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: you know that was that supposedly her final weapon. But
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: is that because she compelled him or Is it because
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: he was one of her dark friends that she carefully
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: placed to take advantage of that and he reported back
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: how much he hated a Bara and stuff like that.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: Is it canonical that he's a dark friend.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: No, I don't think so.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: I don't think he's a dark friend. I think of
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: him as like a lighta yes.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's my question is is he a you know,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: Grendall says he's her tool, right, and we have confirmation
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: from word of Brandon that like yeah.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: But again it's like Massima, Like Messima's not a sworn
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: dark friend. He's just being profoundly manipulated by a forsaken.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: Sure, and so that's that's I guess's kind of my
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: question is, like, you know, my only question was by
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: our is like he hated parent from the beginning. He
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: always smelled off from the beginning, and we kind of
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: always put that as just like white cloak corruption rather
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: than dark friender reiness.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I always figured that Grandall came by and found
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: the one that had keyed onto the wolf boy as
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: being someone to hate and decided to lean into that one.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: And she worked smart and not hard, right, she surveyed
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: who she had to work with and picked the most
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: ready to go person.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: That's been my interpretation, which I always feel like is
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: almost counterproductive, because shouldn't you like pick the person who
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: like would be his best friend and believes in him,
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: and then have him betray him at just the right
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: time with compulsion. Wouldn't that be a more effective way
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: of doing it having a friend, because like, who would
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: you suspect the stabbing parent in the back first buy are?
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a very two dimensional, mustache twirling kind of plot. Yeah,
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: I don't He was never going to make friends in
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: the White Cloaks. There was never going to be a
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: white cloak who was constitutionally capable of being his friend,
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: ascept from maybe Galad, who's you know, barely a white cloak. Yeah,
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: I don't know. There's a lot of it was the
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: early nineties. I have the world as a sort of
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: like underpinning the logic of that that I don't know
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: like how much we're capable of getting rid of it.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: But I don't think he was a dark friend.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: Well, and I also do think I feel like the
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: buyer as a tool of Grendall is something that was
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: introduced by Brandon later. I don't feel like that existed
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: until Brandon took over the series. I don't feel like
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: there's any evidence of it. Not to say like Jordan
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: couldn't have had that idea in his head, but I
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: just don't believe there's any evidence of it before Brandon
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: took over the series.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it does feel a little bit like he took
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: some loose ends and tied them together. Like it's good enough,
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: but it's not as water tight as it could have been.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: But yeah, sometimes hate doesn't necessarily need logic. It just
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: breaks someone's brain.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: That's and I guess that's where. Yeah, I almost feel
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: like it would have been more powerful not to have
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: him be a tool of Grendel and just to have
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: him be like this bigoted person, yeah who could not
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: stand to see paren succeed, and have him be let
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: off as innocent.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Like, I almost feel like it's a more powerful scene
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: if you don't connect it to Grendall. But Grendall says
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: I have that tool, and this is the only possible
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: tool it could be, right, and.
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: So yeah, maybe he just didn't need to say that.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of what I'm going with.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think you're right, it would have been
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: a more impactful conclusion to that if it had been like, no,
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: sometimes bigotry is entirely internally self generated and is not
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: part of a big plot. Sometimes it's just bigotry. Eh
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: oh well, so yeah, Bornhold is the one that does
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: the deed, because you know, he's got one of the
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: only scraps of honor anywhere in the entire children of
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: the Light Force.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: He is still his father's son, right, like, exactly exactly,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: the elder Bornhold, as much as he was a dick,
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: you know, toward and took parent captive, was at least honorable.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: Right a Gallaud like person actually followed the rules and
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: believed that the book had meaningful things to say. And
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: so you know, Bornhold follows through with that. But he's,
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: you know, his relationship to parents going to still stay complicated.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: But I like Gallad's interpretation of like, look, he did
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: the right thing, but he's it's gonna take a minute
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: to get over it because he he loved by our
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: life longer than he was conflicted about if you killed
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: his father, etc.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Exa.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: Their friendship starts before the books started, so you know,
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: but there's.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: Also this moment where parent says from the beginning that
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: one was looking for an excuse to see me dead
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: and we can't. We can go back and be like,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: that's again why I think the whole Grendel comment's kind
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: of dumb, because it's like Buyer has been trying to
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: kill paren you know, that whole like letting him get
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: free so he could kill him in the escape attempt, right, Like,
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: that's something that's been part of Buyer's character for a long,
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: long long time. You don't need compulsion, you just don't
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: need it.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: And there was never a reason for it, so it
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: would have been a really good story of just like, yeah,
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: I know sometimes bigotry is just irrational and there is
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: no reason. There is no rhyme, There is no reason.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: I mean based on the color of his eyes, right,
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: nothing but the color of his eyes.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: Well, and the fact that he did kill those guys,
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: but yeah, the color of the eyes is definitely what
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: tips it over from we should have a sham trial
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: to you can just get yourself killed. Now the sham
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: trial is so ridiculous.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: But it's why he says he's a dark friend because
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: he talks to wolves, right, and talking to wolves, you know,
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: wolves are friends of the dark one, which is again
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: is just a fundamental misunderstanding of how the world he
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: lives in works.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because bigotry doesn't have to make sense or be
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: internally consistent. It's just bigotry.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: And I it's because I think you have wolf headed Traulicks,
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: and so having wolf eyes is part of being.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: Like, sure that there's a I guess there's an argument there,
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: But has.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: Buyer have actually encountered traulks before, right?
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: And has anyone been equally bigoted towards talks and sheep?
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: You know, bors serve the dark one. So yeah, have
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Heron and Galad share another little wink nod giggle moment
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: about how like they're actually you know, the whole like
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: was like, hey, you can go be with a wounded
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: and it's like, as long as you give me your horse,
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: it's fun. Parents like fine, I'll stay with you because
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: I want to look out for the horse, not to
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: look out for you. I'm looking out for the horse.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: It's they're they're flirting. They're essentially flirting.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: Now, yes, it's it's flirting. It's very much flirting, like
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: not even like subtle flirting either.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: No, not at all. And with that, I think you're
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: ready to go to chapter forty two.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: Chapter forty two, and it's got the heron Mark's sword
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: as the symbol because there's land. The golden crane. This
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: is the golden crane on the handle because it flies
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: again for termin guidance.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the title is stronger than blood.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: What is stronger than blood?
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: I don't actually know what is stronger than blood.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: I would assume it's the bonds of loyalty of some kind, right,
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: Like I assume talking about Malchire and the all the
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: groups that are joining Land to fight the last battle
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: that are like part of the borderlanders.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't call a line to that effect, but
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: that was also how I interpreted it was. Yeah, one
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: of those blood of the covenant is stronger than the
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: water of the womb kind of things.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: Right, let me do a quick look. Yes, the oath
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: is stronger than blood. Here we go. This is ah
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: kaisel ah.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: Okay, there it is.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: Our ancestors swore an oath, the young man said, an
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: oath to protect, to defend. The oath is strong. That
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: oath is stronger than blood, Lord man Dragger, and is
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: stronger than will or choice. Your wife told us to
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: wait here for you. She said that she might try
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: to pass, that you might try and pass without greeting us.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, so it is there.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, it's like the final line of the chapter,
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: the final paragraph of the chapter.
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: I swear I did do my notes ahead of time.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: I swear.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: Did you do them last week?
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: Yes? I did these nerds last week. But we start
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: with going going much less admirable water.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: So yeah, he's now in a water bond with a
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: GWayne and is like, oh, it's great, and we get
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: I don't standard stuff that we know about water bonds, right,
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: that like isaid I are icy on the outside but
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: turmoil on the inside. You know, he's understanding the relationship
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: between warders and I sid I better and you know,
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: I guess this is all kind of stuff. It's like
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: you've been in training to be a order? Did no
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: one ever talk about this? Did no one ever say?
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: No, being a warder is just about the fighty stuff.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: It's like, how ISID eye training? Like they it completely
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: starts over when you get the shawl. And I was like, oh,
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: actually we wanted to techols other stuff right right?
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: We don't let people who aren't ISID. I know these weaves,
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: so you have all those things to learn, right right.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: We don't let people aren't warders know about the secret
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: internal lives of Isi.
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: And we get the information about how they did find
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: one that one other assassin and lost two soldiers and
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: a warder killing her, and.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: That accounts for all five We now have like all
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: five of the blood knives accounted for.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and likewise we learned the messenger got killed, you know,
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: on the way in, Like we're getting a lot of
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: that information that we have pieced together and stuff. We
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: get the checkof confirmation here and then also the reveal
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: that yeah, it was Danell who was Massana this whole time,
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: they have now found her, right.
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, just a series of like reveals and knowledge
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: drops right here is like oh yeah Danell being the Massana, right,
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: I feel like that's information we've again, these these information
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: gets brought up and it's stuff we've referenced one hundred
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: times when we're like, oh, yeah, Dannell's Massana. We know
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: because it's on the page in chapter forty one in the.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: In this book exactly forty two, you know.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: And like we we can always we suspected before, but
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: I don't know if anyone ever suspected Dannell as being
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: Massana before it was.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: Revealed Allie did. Ali for some reason twigged on how
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: Danell smirks when Swan gets deposed and like that is
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: on Masona smirking at her Like Ali somehow was like,
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: I bet that's Massana and we have all been dying
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: inside in her fandom. We can say that is how
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: the fuck because that is a real Massana smirk, Like
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: that's not yeah what but yeah, aside from Ali, I
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: don't think anyone has ever suspected.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: That, you know, I'm sure that's sure somebody has at
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: one point or another.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean people figured it out, but I don't
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: think I mean, yeah, most of us. It was like, well,
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of names. There's a list of names.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of names, and it was to.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: Know the only thing about Danell is she was present
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: at the deposition of Suan. So it's like she was
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: there early enough with enough significance that like she is
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: one of the few candidates. I feel like a lot
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: of the later I said I couldn't be her, like
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: it was one of the ice that I was introduced
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: in booked like you know ten, I'd be like, okay, whatever,
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: that's dumb.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, but it's great. Like Masana got out and
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: five minutes after she was releasing the bore, she had
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: found an ice to die, to impersonate, and like ensconced
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: herself into what would become a conspiracy to take Swan down.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: Just like that boom, very efficient, very efficient. And so yeah,
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: they kind of debate, you know, rules and protocols around
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: was he supposed to come back, did he break her
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: rules whatever, whatever, blah blah blah, rules lawyering. They talk
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: about surrender, which is something that they can both understand, right.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, I Gollin, He's like, I had to learn
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: to surrender. I'm like, did you, because it doesn't feel
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: like you learned that lesson very well. Feels like you
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: kind of just gave it lip service and then immediately
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: decided to run off and do what you wanted to
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: do later after this chapter.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: Well, that's what I'm saying. That's why he came back,
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: is he learned to surrender. That was his revelation. The
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: Garden was like, oh, I got a surrender, and then
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: he came back did this and he immediately lost the
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: plot again, but like immediately, you know that won't happen
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: for another five minutes.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: For this moment. He knows how to surrender for this moment,
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: in this moment, only right, And.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: It's a really good analogy for him to use too,
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: Agwain right, because that is like the main way that
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: they understand how to deal with Sidar. So she's like, okay, cool,
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: maybe he really has learned his lesson in a way
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: that's like foundly meaningful and will stick this time, you.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: Know, like and not come back to bite me in
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: the ass exactly.
• 45:07
  Speaker 2: Like he says the right things to make her go, oh,
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: he really gets it. And then then he just pops
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: the question about getting married, because she's like, okay, we're
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: can I have like a warders like room set up
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: for you? And he's like, girl, you think we're sleeping
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: in different buds seriously and proposes to her in the
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: most just like casual kind of way, and she gets
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: absolutely terrified at the concept of telling her parents that
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: she got married without their permission. And it's just this
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: really like it's supposed to be cute and flirty and
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: it kind of just makes me cringe, but like it's
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: written to be cute. It is intended to be cute.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: It's written to be cute. But but I just you know,
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: the the innkeeper's daughter who you know won't get.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: Innkeeper's daughter, Yeah, clutch his pearls.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: Is that that ambulin in keeper's daughter that, like Jordan
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: wrote so well that I really do feel like Sanderson
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: just doesn't quite get and then.
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: Not concerned bit of princeling who's been sewing his wild
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: oats across the length and breadth.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: Of and Or.
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: I guess is the implication that like he's totally fine
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: with casual sex and she's not. Like, I don't know,
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: it's supposed to be cute, but I can't help but crunch.
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, they've been having dream sex for a long time.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: That's never brought up. I know, like that would be
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: nice to know. Absolutely, Yeah, there's this whole aspect of
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: their relationship. And again, like I I go back to
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: being like, remember she was into Galade and then suddenly
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: she was into Gawain for some reason and dream stuff,
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: and I don't know, this just feels so disconnected from
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: their early early relationship and the way they flirted in
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: Tier and Or Tier in the waist no, no, no,
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: where was that was that Kyrie? In Yes, Kyrien, that
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: was Kyrien.
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was right before Rand got boxed up and
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: shipped off to do my as well.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: So right, right, right, right right, It just does it
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: feels like that relationship in this relationship are just totally disconnected.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: I agree, and partially is because of Gwen. Feels like
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: a totally different person.
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of really abrupt tonal shifts
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: earlier on that. Yeah, like the difference is really profound
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: by now. So yeah, then, having made you know, one
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: good conversation, Gowan wanders off to a bad decision and
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: he plucks the blood knives off of the three assassins
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: and puts them in his pocket, which, like you said
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: at the top, is a mistake he could still rectify.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: He still has the ability to back out. At this point,
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: he has not yet committed himself, but he has made
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: a massive step towards making his ultimate bad mistakes that
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: cement his reputation as the worst ever.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean rating a crime scene for Taron, which
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: he knows the ISID. I consider all tearan real their
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: own property.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: I'll just sneak these off, It's fine.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fine, and he knows that like they're terrible
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: tearon real that will inevitably kill him.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's stealing from the crime scene. He's going behind
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: the backs of his isidie as well as all eyes
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: to die. He's taking a thing that he knows is dangerous.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: As Athlon says, this is a case where you do
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: not want to loot all the corpses in the RPG.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: Not Luke Goblin, this goblin.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: I mean he went full murder hobo.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: I get that, but yeah, no, I respect the murder
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: hobo Luke Goblin thing, but this was a cursed object.
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: You shouldn't have picked that up.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: Is bad like and I guess the thing that really
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: drives me nuts is like he's told he's told they're
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: bad objects explicitly, explicitly, and then never thinks about that,
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: never says, oh, well, the sacrifice is worth it, Oh well,
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: like I might as well, doesn't.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: Leave her a note, doesn't come up to her and say, hey,
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: you're going to want to release the bond because I'm
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: going to be dead in the next three hours. Nothing
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: just wanders off like it's fine to have, you know,
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: a last ditch resort that involves self sacrifice, but you've
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: got to let the people who will be devastated by that.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: No, right, right, I mean and know it's not like
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: I'm like, it's just not the bond to a gwayn Like.
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: Warders aren't there to sacrifice themselves in glory. They're there
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: to sacrifice themselves to protect the ISID.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: I yeah, yeah, and then the ISID I can have
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: at least a half a second of warning as he
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: throws himself onto a grenade and be like, oh shit,
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: he's doing the thing that I hoped you would never do,
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: but like, at least we're both present for it instead
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: of just I'm just gonna wander off and give myself
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: killed spontaneously.
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: And also, like I get why I said I don't
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: necessarily want to fall in love with their warders. It's
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: that double devastation of losing a worder and your lover.
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's you should be. You should not do
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: that until you are like through a couple of warders already.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: Like're right, and I think that more than anything else
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: is like what leads to this sacrificial Like I've lost
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: my warder and that's magically induced trauma. But on top
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: of that, I've lost my husband and my lover.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: Who's also my first lover, because my first Yeah, it's yeah, yeah.
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: It's it's very Romeo and Julia, right, It's like, yeah,
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: it's not a love story. It's a tragedy two teenagers
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: whose crush kills five people or something like that. You know, yes, yes,
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: that's the level of relationship I get with the Gowin
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: and Aguain.
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: And with that final POV of today's reading, switching over
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: to Lan who is also going to have satisfying checking
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: off the tick box, getting over himself. Concluding an arc
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: that we've been on since book one, Let's go the
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: Golden Crane is flying for tarm and.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: Guiden, and so this is essentially the point where you know,
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: he's got a little bit of a caravan with him,
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: but he's hitting an army that is waiting for.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: It, choke point that he can't possibly skip around. Also,
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: he can now feel that Ninive is his isid right,
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: because his bond has changed extra to be distinctly Niinive.
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: Prickly and just the different feelings towards him.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he is now bonded to his wife as
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: opposed to the friend of his former boss.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: And I like that. I like that he knows he's
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: been bonded. Yeah, it's sweet. It's like knowing the breathing
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: of your lover, right.
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's also like really good foreshadowing for him
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: accepting the army here of just like it's happening, dude,
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: people are making this happen. You can you can't resist
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: it at this point. It's a n neive has taken
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: over everything and you're not even mad about it, So
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: stop saying you're mad about it.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: And like, and this is all about the fact that
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: this group of people has come together in a way
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: to support him and his dead kingdom and you know,
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: stronger than blood, right, this this bond of these people
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: for this fall. Even though the country has fallen, it
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: was an ally in living memory of most of these people.
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's it's more disrespectful to not allow them
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: to participate than to protecting them. Is the disrespectful thing.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: Protecting them is the wrong move.
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: You're choosing their fate for them, right.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: And like, if you want to be an actual leader,
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: you're going to protect their right to choose. You're going
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: to protect their free will and their agency and their
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: value as complete human beings.
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: I love the when he's like, aren't you going to
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: wait for the king and Lands like I have no king,
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: and like, on one level it's like, oh, you could
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: see that where the king is dead and there is
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: no But on the level it's like, yeah, because you
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: are the king, so the king has.
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: No king exactly. Like, dude, you're not being subtle with
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: that line. Yeah, not at all the way you just
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: turned it into Erragorn right now.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's very Erragorn in this scene for sure.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thinks about how this is a site that would
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: have made Boukama cry, which is a nice little callback
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: to New Spring.
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: Mmmmmm.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: Sanderson's being like, hey, remember that guy in New Spring.
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: Like this, he's doing the ghost over the shoulder like,
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: you know, weeping with joy kind of situation.
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: It's very Obi wan Kenobi, you know, trust the forest Luke,
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: like that level of exactly exactly, you know, not manifestation
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: of him, but in his memory at least exactly.
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and any other the gate guards are like, we're
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: gonna put a terrify that, and Land's like, I'm donating
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: it to the war effort. I'm like, okay, fine, sir.
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, which I mean that is kind of how
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: it works, right, we like this you don't tax donations, yeah.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: For sure, for sure. And and also lots of people
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: are doing this. A lot of farmers and merchants and
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: wagon trains are legitimately doing that. We saw that at
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: the beginning of the last book, right, like that is
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: a thing that's happening. He's very normal to claim that,
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: which is part of why the gate guard is like,
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: all right, another one.
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: And then yeah, the Prince Kaisel is keeping an eye
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: on looking out for Mandarb.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: Because you might disguise yourself, but you would never disguise
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: the horse. I Neive Ninive knows that her husband as
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: a horseboy.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it kind of reminds me of you ever watch Supernatural? No,
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: I hadn't either, but never's into it, and so I
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: watched some episodes and he's just like, yeah, the car.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: The car is a big character in that one. And
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: in the same way that Vandarid is a huge character.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: It's like it's part of who he is.
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the royal steed, it's important, it's distinctive.
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: Also, it looks a lot like fail For some reason,
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: I don't know, Mandar.
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: Indeed indeed, And yeah, Kaisel, I think we did see
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: in New Spring. He's like a kid like mentioned or
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: running around underfoot or something like that.
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: Mm okay, oh, let me look him up.
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: I didn't actually, yeah, because it was his it's his grandmother.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: Who like Queen Ethanella.
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: Maybe I'm tripping, but I thought that there are a
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: couple of like like the dude that's traveling with him.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: He is not mentioned, Okay.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: I was. I was hallucinating and splicing some characters together
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: because Bulin that is mentioned in New Spring, and.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: As is Queen as is his money, right, Queen eathanel is.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: The Kaisel is not mentioned there because presumably he's like
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: a baby or not even born yet at that point.
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: I believe not even born yet because she has a
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: son antall.
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: Because it was twenty years ago, and he's a youth,
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: so that means he's got to be less than twenty
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: Youths are described twenty yearls are described as adults in
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: this world.
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: And Queen Athaniella is in Bramwood with Tanobia, right, so
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: she's traveling with that group. That's not the confront Rand.
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: Right, they're doing the dragon Reborn slapping mission.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: And that group joins Kaisel in that final charge, right,
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: that's the group that supports him.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: Oh cool, cool, cool nice. Yeah, so he's basically like
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: very young and holding the torch, waiting for the adults
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: to come back, and they do at the last minute.
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah, but according to wiki, this is his introduction
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: as a character.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: Okay, cool, I was just assuming he was like Bulin
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: and that was wrong with me. Incorrect. I don't know
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: if it was morally wrong, but it was incorrect.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: Right, your grandmother's in the South. I assume your father
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: rules in the candor.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah. Land is realizing that he is literally
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: the only Borderlander who doesn't want him to lead the
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: Borderlands into and into the last battle. And much like Paren,
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: if you don't, that's not going to stop them from
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: running into battle. It'll just make them less effective. So
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: do you care or do you not care? If you
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: want to save their lives, you're going to need to
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: step up.
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: And a little bit of parallel, but in both of
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: these last couple of chapters, both of these people have said, Okay, fine,
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: I will lead in this battle. Parent says it, Land
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: says it.
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: And these are things that we've been building up to
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: for years and years.
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: And years, years and years. Yeah, and it's.
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: It's good, it's good for him to finally lay down
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: that reluctance and say I'm raising the Golden crane for
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: a time and Guide. And it's like yes, just like
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: your wife said, right.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: Right, And it's like it feels like these are all
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: the eldest sons that didn't go down on that pilgrimage
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: and they were told, you know, while we're away, go
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: ahead and gather the remaining armies and go meet Land
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: to start this last battle.
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll go get land. You prepare the thing for
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: land to be retrieved to. Yeah, And he says it
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: very quietly, you know, the golden crane flies for Arman
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: Guide and let all let any man or a woman
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: who wishes to fight, do you wishes to follow joyd
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: it and fight? And he just says it so quietly,
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: and it just it's like that the one domino and
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: then it quickly escalates to just like an ear shattering roar,
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: as like you know, one hundred thousand people realize that
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: he's finally gotten with the program.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: The Golden Crane flies for Tarman Guiden, like finally, yeah,
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: it's like foretold in the prophecies. It's been you know,
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: we've been waiting forever for this to happen, and it does.
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: It's it's it's so satisfying and such a great moment
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: in the books.
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: Ever since Ninive had that moment where she started it,
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: we've been waiting for him to like finish the verse.
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: You know, this is a this is a chord resolution.
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: It's not just a chord progression. This is the resolution
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: to a harmonic that was just needing to be resolved.
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: Right right, Yeah, And that moment of you know, will
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: he ride alone? And the answer here is no, resoundingly no,
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: resoundingly no.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: He's admitting that writing alone is not an option, and ugh, yeah,
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: it's it's good, it's good. It's one of those moments
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: you love to have Sanderson at the helm for.
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: Right, right, because this is the moment where it builds, right,
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: it feels good. The crescendo's perfect.
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just just fantastic. And yeah, that's that's what I
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: got for today for this week.
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: Same.
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: Do you want to read us out properly? Sure?
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, why not?
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: It's a good readout. I'm not quoted from it already,
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: but like give us the read out.
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: Prince Kendral invited me, Kaisel said, and my father bade
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: me come. We both plan to ride with you. Kendrawl too,
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: gest the grandson of the Rfel and king. Your places
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: are with your people. Our ancestors swore an oath, the
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: young man said, an oath to protect, to defend. That
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: oath is stronger than blood, Lord van Dragrin, it is
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: stronger than will or choice. Your wife told us to
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: wait here for you. She said that you might try
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: and pass us without greeting us. How did you notice me,
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: Land asked, containing his anger the horse, Kaisel said, nodding
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: toward Mandar. She said, you might disguise yourself, but you
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: would never leave the horse. Burn that woman, Land thought,
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: as he heard a call being raised through the fortress.
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: He'd been out maneuvered. Curse my Neve and bless her too.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: He tried to send a sense of love and frustration
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: through the bond to her, and then with a deep sigh,
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: he gave in the golden crane flies for tarman guidin.
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: Land said softly, let any man or woman who wishes
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: to follow join it and fight. He closed his eyes
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: as the call went up soon and became a cheer,
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: then a.
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: Roar, swelling triumphant.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: Flies retirement guy.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, look all the cray fies Ford got it.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, No, that's that's such a good moment. I
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: really love it and love love, love the way Brandon
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: Sanderson uh is really putting together these these really good moments.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: But also because they're set up so well in these
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: previous books. Yeah, they feel good. They feel good.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, he knows that he's writing the Last Battle,
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: so he knows how he wants to springboard himself into
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: the Last Battle. Means he knows how he wants to
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: run up to the springboard to get into the Last Battle.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: And he's in his stread, he's in his streade, and
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: he is a tall man, so it is a long stread.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: Who rand Land Jordan? I mean, they're all God, what
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: is it with these people being six foot five? And
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: you shouldn't have to be tall to write? I'm sorry,
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: it shouldn't be a requirement, and yet it does seem
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: to be.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: Might not be told to write? You just have to
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: be tall to be popular. It's successful at writing, Oh gotcha.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: You can write whatever you want. It's getting people to
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: read it that the height comes into too mattering. Ah, well,
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: that was satisfying. I'm enjoying the sander lance. Towards the
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: end of this book. I can tell that the next book,
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: the same part is going to be so bittersweet. But
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: it's not bittersweet yet. Right now, I'm still just excited.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: But I'm even more excited to go do more. Dungeon
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: Crawler Carl corosstumes stay scenario. I'm even more excited about that.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: How tall is Matt Denneman.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: Ah if he needs the height of a zoom window
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: as far as I can tell.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: All Right, Well, thank you very much for joining us.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: This was actually relatively short for two chapters, but they
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: were both super action packed. And when they're action packed,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: my advice is just go reread the chapter. They're fun,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: they're exciting, good shit happens. There's battles, this fighting, it's
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: just it's fun. Yeah, And that's what I'll say about
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: these two chapters.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: They're fun, they're good, they're satisfying, they're fun, they chew good.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: They resolve a whole bunch of things. They have a
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: whole lot of lord drops and information drops that we
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: use throughout the rest of the series, like we're in
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: that part of the books now where like the reveals
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: are happening left and right.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So thank you for joining us for a satisfying
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: re examination of these chapters. And apparently Matt Deniman is six',
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: three so there you, go.
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: Keeping keeping it, going keeping it. Going this is why
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: we'll never write a book and we'll just read all
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: of them all, right see you next, Time come.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: Bye thank you for listening to The wheel Of Time spoilers.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: Podcast please rate and review us on your podcast app
• 1:03:43
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• 1:03:47
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• 1:03:50
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• 1:03:53
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