Latest / nondriver / Sharing Your Authentic Nondriver Story, ft. Pedestrian Pride

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Sharing Your Authentic Nondriver Story, ft. Pedestrian Pride · nondriver

• McKenzie: I was like, wait, like I do have a lot of shame around being like a nondriver. Like this is something I don't really share. And so I wanted to like have more pride in like I am like a working class woman of color. Like the this is something that I own. Why don't I bring being like a pedestrian to the forefront? Because it does shape so much of who I am. I was in like a lot of conversations where other advocates were talking about like there's like a lot of shame around it. And I was like, we should like make it cool to like ride the bus to be a pedestrian. Anna: Welcome to Nondriver. Devin: Stories of navigating our world from people who can't drive. Anna: Anna Zivarts. Devin: And I'm Devin Silvernail. And today we have a really exciting guest. we have McKenzie Ortiz. McKenzie is a mobility advocate and creator of pedestrian pride living in Jersey City, New Jersey. McKenzie grew up in Wichita, Kansas, and spent most of her adult life living in Missouri. Mackenzie's nondriver origin story is a little bit different from guests we've had on the show in the past. She became a nondriver at a time in her life. When the costs associated with owning a car or renting a car were just too much. Since then, McKenzie made the choice to continue as a nondriver over safety concerns associated with OCD and is now advocating for better mobility options for people all over in her community. Thanks for joining us today, McKenzie. McKenzie: Hi, thank you so much for having me. Yep. Anna: Hi McKenzie. It's so great to have you here and yeah, be part of this conversation and have your energy with us. So I wanna start with just asking you to tell us a bit about that moment when you decided that you were gonna become a non driver or w what that felt like whether where where you were in your life, where that happened, when that happened. McKenzie: I really decided that I was going to stop engaging in driving during like COVID. it was it was actually slightly before COVID. It was about like February of 2020. I was in like I was dating someone who had an emergency and he needed to be driven to the emergency room. And I We were like newly dating and I didn't really tell him that I had like really bad anxiety like behind the wheel. I just kinda told him like, I don't have a car, so I don't drive. and I got like behind the wheel, drove him to the emergency room, and I realized at that moment I'm like, that was the most anxiety inducing experience that I've ever had. The emergency, the like COVID like talks were going around, so it was like induced anxiety inducing going to like an emergency room. And then just driving in general, like it's just a really like scary experience for me. And so I was like, you know what? That's gonna be like the last time I ever drive. And it was. I haven't like driven since then, but really it started when I just couldn't afford a car. I was like 25 when COVID happened. And before then, like during college and high school, like I just was never in a position where I could afford a car. I was a waitress at the time when COVID first happened and I just never got to the point where like I had enough money saved that I could purchase a vehicle. And so it was kind of just circumstance. and then yeah, I made the decision just due to anxiety, like I wasn't going to drive again. Anna: I feel like that's so common among folks that I I tie talk to around, you know, people who i and it's kind of a choice and kind of not a choice, right? This but the the anxiety around driving and that stress and having it be something that just doesn't feel comfortable. And I feel like there's there's also some shame and stigma around that. Did you face like how did you how did you reckon with that? That how did you explain your decision to other people perhaps who are skeptical? McKenzie: At that time, honestly, like during the like pandemic, a lot of people weren't going out and about. So it wasn't like that weird that I wasn't driving. so really like I didn't have to like start explaining to people like, I don't drive like at all, until like the world started to open back up. people were like traveling. I think like the first time we traveled, we went to like Austin, Texas in like 2023. one or twenty twenty two. And like I thought it's Austin, it's like a progressive city. Transportation will be fine. And it like totally wasn't like it was not like a very accessible city at all to like travel to as a nondriver. and I think that was like the first time I had to explain like, I'm not getting a rental because I don't drive anymore. Like this is you know like a choice that I made but it's it's also like the safest choice for me. Like, so like my like brand of O C D, I try to like equalize things. So like even things out. And so if something in my mind is like bad luck or not not not good or like if a light goes out or a traffic signal changes in like a way that my brain doesn't like, I'll like do I'll shut my eyes to like even it out. And it's like it's a dangerous thing. Like I c I should not be doing it. and so once I tell people that, like, I was shutting my eyes while I was driving, usually they're like, you know what? Yeah, like you should not be on the road. Devin: That's real, right? Like anxiety. I mean, it's so hard for us to talk about our anxiety in general, right? And I think luckily it has been less stigmatized lately. you know, that we're able to talk be a little bit more open about that. That's gotta be still, you know, pretty tough. And that's a really brave thing to do to make that choice. I mean, likewise, also like talking about the cost of owning a car. I mean, it's crazy t expensive. You gotta think about insurance and gas. Yeah, if you're buying or if you're leasing, all this stuff it just adds up. And people still, even if they can't afford a car, are living far from school or work, from daily essentials. If you're talking to somebody who is facing that kind of same situation now, what might you say to them? Maybe words of encouragement or words of advice? McKenzie: I would say like crowdsource information. like if you so if you're finding yourself in a position where you're like transitioning to being a non driver, I would say ask for help, ask for for like resources. I feel like so much that I've learned, you know, I just made like a big move. And I've learned so much about like how to navigate the transit system here just from like asking people around me and like not being afraid to like ask other people at the bus stop. Like, is this bus usually on time? Or do you do you know like like do you have like the like which app is like the most reliable for for tracking this bus? Like things like that, like I feel there's so much information that you just get from your neighbors that you can't just find like organically like on a bus map. so yeah, crowdsource your information. Also social media is great for connecting with other non-drivers, and like seeing your story being like platformed. it's kind of what I do with like pedestrian pride. I recently went to the airport and obviously I didn't drive there. And I was like curious, like I'm like how difficult is it going to be for me to get to the airport? Like just like from a signage perspective. Cause like I'm in a big city now and I came from like a more rural area where like it was easy to find stuff. Like like it was just like pretty obvious where stuff was. And it was harder to get lost, I guess, where I was in Columbia, Missouri. And so I was like asking online, I'm like, how obvious is it to get to like the bus to the airport? Because I don't want to get on the wrong one and end up somewhere else and like miss a flight. And Just like people replied and they're like, it's like super easy. Like there's huge signs, like you'll follow a stream of people. which made me feel like more confident in myself, like, I can do this. Like, yeah. So for me, I think it's been a lot of like crowdsourcing information, gaining confidence from other people who have experienced similar things and yeah, yeah, rely relying on others for help. Devin: Where where online would you ask that question? I mean, I'm gonna date myself, so is it like Reddit or is it like somewhere else? McKenzie: Reddit's great. Reddit's great. but it can get echo chamber-y. I would say TikTok, Instagram, TikTok and Instagram. Yeah. Those would be the best. Anna: met you, I I I I had seen pedestrian pride in your your social media accounts, I think before that. and I love this idea of pride, in being a pedestrian, in being a non driver. I mean I think that's part of what the work that we're doing with non drivers alliance and what this concept of non drivers is about is that like visibility and countering some of the shame and stigma and making ourselves visible out there as as, you know, community members and we have transportation needs and let's start to to talk more about it. Talk to me about like how you came up with that concept for pedestrian pride and yeah how how it evolved. McKenzie: So I was greatly inspired, of course, by Pedestrian Dignity. their account is amazing. I don't know if I should like explain it because I know a lot of people probably are familiar, but Jonathan runs his name's Jonathan Stalls, he runs an account called Pedestrian Dignity. but he also, beyond just an account, like he has like a book and is a huge pedestrian advocate. And he really inspired me to like tell like my own story because he would like just post like videos like of his commute and like how humiliating like some some sometimes how it felt like walking on the side of the road without like a sidewalk and and things of that nature. And I like never really thought of like I never really thought of like how much that was like impacting me, like being a nondriver. It was almost like I had compartmentalized that as like a part of a part of my life that was like like hidden or like separate from everything else. Like I was very comfortable, like, like I'm a mixed woman, like I'm you know, like I grew up poor. Like those those are like parts of my identity that I really identified with. openly but the like the non driver part it was like I had put away like in a box. And so seeing Jonathan really like post about that kind of thing, I was like, wait, like I do have a lot of shame around being like a non driver. Like this is something I don't really share. And so I wanted to like have more pride in like, okay, like I am like a working class you know woman of color. Like th this is something that I own. Why don't I bring being like a pedestrian to the forefront of of that identity as well because it does shape so much of who I am. and yeah, so that's kind of like was the motivation behind the account. Also, I think I was in like a lot of conversations where people or where like other other transit advocates and other like pedestrian, like bicyclist advocates were talking about like there's such a stigma behind being like walking or just like being on the side of the road, like th like those things, like there's like a lot of shame around it. And I was like, we should like make it cool to like ride the bus, like make it cool to be a pedestrian, whatever. And and they were they were like, well we're we need like we need like young people to do it. We need like, you know, we need like it to be like a cool thing. Like what like we need like a culture shift. And I was like, well, like social media is like the best way to do that. So that's like literally was the motivation for the account. And like, okay, I'm just gonna like do do this. And now there's so so many accounts that do it too, which is awesome because I feel like it's become like such a like a trend in a great way to take public transportation and like be more like fiscally responsible. you know, skip the Uber ride and take you know, take take public. public transit, walk to where you're going. it's been really cool to like connect with those folks too. Devin: for a lot of folks you know it feels maybe like it's it's a very easy thing to start but that it's it takes a lot of bravery I think to to do something like that I mean to to we're we we're kind of new with this podcast right and we're still kind of figuring out how things work and how to reach people and there's this level of like online literacy that you I think p folks overlook as well in in getting something going. I guess like starting yeah, starting pedestrian pride and and getting that going and obviously you had folks who inspired you, but what are yeah, what are some tricks or tips that you can give folks who might want to do the same thing, get on that trend and get folks moving in that direction? McKenzie: This is a hard question because I feel like social media changes so much. Like I feel like what was hot like two years ago isn't like the cool thing anymore. so I guess like, okay, if you Well okay, start by if you are wanting to start like a social media account or any kind of like advocacy featuring like yourself, like definitely focus on like your own story and like what what what moves you or what like brought you to this to this position or like your daily experiences. I think that you know we're not like influencers. We're not like showing like I don't know like I guess you could show like what you eat in a day or something but like we're we're showing like a like your commute. Like that that's what we're showing like This is my commute. This is how I get from point A to point B. So really focusing on on on that and like don't worry about like glamorizing it because I think people are looking for the the real, the real stuff, the the like the grit, you know. and it's not always gonna be like cinematic, like there's going to be, you know, rocks and gravel on the side of the road. It's not yeah, it's not glamorous. I think but leaning into that and like showing like this is every day as like a nondriver, I think is like the most powerful thing you can do. And then algorithms change a lot. I work in social media professionally for an like an organization and things are constantly changing. Like, but I would say try not to like change too much with the algorithm because things will come back your direction. and then if you are recording video, always shoot extra. Anna: Part of it just is being willing to put yourself and your personal story out there. And I you know, the the I don't know, the internet can be cruel too and I think, you know, there's a like a a fear, I have sometimes about putting myself out there in the world, and and putting my kid out there in the world. but, you know, getting over that and realizing this is how you reach people, by sharing that authentic story I think is is key. I I wanna circle back to to w growing up in the Midwest in Wichita and then you know living in in in Missouri. I think we met in Columbia, Missouri and I you know, getting there, I was with my partner and he we rented a car, I think, in St. Louis and we drove hours. and you know, the town itself was Columbia was was walkable and there was some transit, but not a lot. I'm curious about you, you know, your experiences there as a non driver and then the decision to to move somewhere with more transit. And just what that feels like in the differences in your day to day, in bet in between, you know, being in a smaller town versus now on the east coast and sort of the the densest, most transit rich part of the US. McKenzie: So I grew up in Wichita, Kansas. there I pretty much lived in like a an area where people drove everywhere. like very it wasn't suburban because we lived in the city, but we just didn't really have like that kind of like robust transit system that like other cities had. now that like I'm older and like I've can like reflect. I think I probably could have made public transportation work, but I think that at the time there was like a stigma like, that's for poor people. We were poor, but like there was still that that stigma. It's like, but that's for like other poor people, you know? which is pretty ridiculous. after I turned 18 and went away to college, then I moved to Kansas City after college. In Kansas City, I used public transportation to get around primarily. and Ubers. I worked late nights as a server. So after I got off a shift, if if the boss wasn't running anymore, I would just take an Uber home. And I didn't I didn't really think about it. that's where I met my ex partner. We were together for six years. and we moved to Columbia, Missouri together. And so part of the motivation behind moving there was for his job. and for myself I you I was working as a restaurant server. I didn't really have like a like a career in Kansas City. And I was just like really trying to break through, but I I never got to the point where like I had enough money to like quit like serving. if anyone's been in the service industry, it's like you get like this like fast cash at the end of the night and going to like a nine to five job. from like having like like cash at the end of the night is like really hard to do. and so like I I just I was getting stuck. I was getting stuck in this service industry loop. and so we we moved to Columbia and one of the first things like I asked when we moved, I was like, how walkable is it? Like how how is transit? And he, my ex was like You know, it's great, you know, in in his experience, like it was because he was a college student there, like he went to Mizzou, it's a college town. so his experience with the transit was great. Like his apartment had like a shuttle, he went to campus and back. but me personally, going there, my experience was a lot different. So after the pandemic, they cut the bus times from every forty-five minutes. Two every ninety minutes. So not only were the buses like not great before, they were really bad when I was there. And then the last bus stopped at or the last bus pickup was at six PM. So if I wanted to go to like any meetings, anything after work, it was impossible. I mean, I I would have to Uber back or walk back. so I ended up staying like within like a two-mile bubble, like where I can walk in Columbia. Luckily, like when when we moved there, I chose a place that was very close to like the downtown area, about a mile from downtown. It was in a very student centric area, but like I don't care. I wanted to be I wanted that like easy access. and but it was it was an affordable place to live. but then I my ex-partner and I, we broke up recently, like this year. This is like all this is all fresh. and I realized I was like, I'm living in Columbia, Missouri, which I love. Like I love. Like I was on the planning and zoning commission, I was on the bike pad commission. Like I literally threw myself into that city, like, and I loved it so much and I wanted to make it a better place. But I realized like Okay, I'm in my 30s. I am single. I have no kids. I have to stop living for like someone else. Like and and that's what I felt like I was doing. I was living in this city and like working so hard. Like what is it to the nail or whatever? Like I was working so hard for this city to make it better. And I'm like, but it's not serving me at all. Like I am having to work so hard just to get to work. like walking two miles just to get to an office. And I was tired of it. So I looked into new places to move. And Jersey City was it's a very diverse place, which I love. Like I'm I'm multiracial, like I'm mixed on both sides, my mom's mixed and my dad's mixed. So like that was really important to me. access to public transportation, access to a big city like New York City. and it's more affordable here than New York City, obviously. so like that was a huge draw for me. and Yeah, it's wild here because I went from everyone having a car and like like that being so normal to hear like if you drive it's like, my god, like where'd you park? Like that's crazy. Like why would you drive here? Like that, like that's such a crazy decision. Why would you do that? so like I I I love just the culture shift here. Like I feel way more normal and like I just kind of blend in. Like no one's thinking about Like, how is Kinzie gonna get there? Like, you know, and I I did feel like in back in Columbia it was like people would either not invite me into things because they knew it was outside of like my little radius that I would go into, or they would feel like, well, I'm gonna have to give her a ride, so like that's an extra step for me. which it is, you know, like that's that's difficult if you're a driver and you're having to pick up a friend every time. But here it's like, no, like we're all taking transit and we can just meet up and not think about like being responsible for someone else. I don't know. Devin: I love that you moved to Jersey City. Like that's literally a place. I mean, I'm from the West Coast, right? So it's like a place I've never heard of before. and it it's such a cool idea because I think so many folks are like, New York, you know, let's move to the to the big city. and yeah, you found your like like little slice of like what you needed. I'm curious now that you're there. I mean, you said you like threw yourself headfirst into Columbia. and you I mean you were part of the government, right? Like you were there trying to make things better for other people. Do you still feel that pull in in New Jersey? Like have you found places to put that energy or do you do you just feel like I'm fine for now? Like how is that going? McKenzie: Honestly, okay, so it's kind of divided. So I've joined like the Democratic Socialists of America, North New Jersey chapter. And that's been great. And it's been great to like find friends through through those folks. and then I also like just recently canvassed with the Hudson County Complete Streets Coalition. I might be getting their name wrong. There's just like so many things here. Like I'm like, it's so shiny. Everything's so shiny right now. And that's been great. and they're working for like better light rail. But like part of me, part of me like so selfishly, it's like I'll hear some of the things that New York City people are like complaining about. And I'm like, I wish I had that. Like like, the next train doesn't come for another ten minutes. And I'm like, ten minutes? Only ten minutes? Like like just like things that I'm like, like People in the Midwest would kill for this. Like this is like so incredible. And like I totally understand, like from where they're coming from. Like, yeah, it does suck. But like, I don't know. So so part of me it's it's hard to like put myself in this new mindset just because everything is so good to me right now. but I'm sure like a year in I'm gonna be like one of the people that's like complaining about Really valid complaints, I'm sure, but for right now I'm just like going from the ninety minute headways like everything feels so fabulous to me that it it's hard to like it's it's been hard. but I'm but I'm listening to the locals and like their concerns and I trust that, you know, pe local people like they understand their community. So so I'm I'm taking this step back a little bit until I learn a little bit more. Anna: I love that that the difference, right? And and I so I lived in New York for a number of years before Seattle and I feel like that not feeling that that feeling of being it being normal not to drive and yeah, like what you were saying around people aren't worried about you getting to places 'cause it's totally normal to be a non driver in in, you know, out in parts of the world, right? and parts of the East Coast. And and that's just a really profound shift to not always feel sort of socially excluded. by not being able to drive. And and I think for me it was like a there was a real i it helped me understand that it we could create communities where it was normal not to drive and it was a choice versus like something that was inherently wrong with me, which was the attitude I'd sort of absorbed growing up on the West Coast in an area where quote unquote everyone drove. so that that to me is is is exciting. Let me my gosh, I I lost my train of thought of what I was gonna ask you. I'm gonna open up the questions. Devin, was there anything that you wanted to ask? Devin: It's not so much a question, but I just kind of love, I've noticed, because I also edit the podcast, that our the nondriver experience is like totally like inherently, intrinsically linked to like relationships. And it it almost feels like we become like a family and relationship podcast sometimes because it does happen, right? Like we you know, we've talked in the past about you know, partners who kind of join the cause, right? Like, okay, we're with you, you're you can't drive. or they're, you know, or maybe they're from a place like New York or something like that where they don't it's just it's just normal, right? Like you either have to hide it or you have to have that moment of acceptance. It sounded like that last partner you had was accepting maybe just not completely didn't fully grasp the situation. And then we've also had just folks talk to us about how it it it it it's hard to meet people, you know, like really and you're so isolated sometimes. so I can just only imagine, like I'm really happy for you that you've been able to move to a place that is working for you now because it is like this hidden thing that we don't if you're not in it, right? Like people just kind of don't see. So I don't know, I just thought not a question, but just a fun observation. Like that's what that's the our trajectory, I feels like. McKenzie: Yeah, I remember like when I when I went on my first date with my ex boyfriend, the one that I was with all that time, I remember like I w I took the bus there and I we were like leaving the date and I'm thinking to myself, like, my god, like the next bus isn't for a while, but I need to leave because I don't want him to know I'm riding the bus. And I think it's like a a mix of like shame from like like I don't have a car. And also like I don't want to be seen as like vulnerable and like not having access to like a private vehicle where I can like get away. And I think not because of anything he did, but just like men in general. I'm like I don't want them to know like I'm gonna walk home or I'm you know like I'm I'm out in the open and vulnerable. Like like it's kind of like a scary thing and so dating now, like on the East Coast, it's like, well, I'm gonna hop on a train and you're probably never gonna see me. Like, you know, like it's it's I'm more anonymous here. while dating in the Midwest, it's like, okay, if I'm walking home, like you're gonna see me on the side of the road. Like v it's a very vulnerable position to be in. Anna: When we said these systems, right where you have to drive to get places when you are or you're relying on other people, sometimes that breaks down. And yeah, I mean, there's there's a level of risk anytime you get in a car, even if it's a ride hill, right? Like that you're just sort of weighing when you're not in control, or when you're yeah, when you're walking or waiting for a bus after meeting someone. It is yeah, I remember when I met my partner. I had have my parents drive me up to Seattle, for it for the date and I made them plot park like three blocks away so I wouldn't they wouldn't, you know, I I could walk up and and look like I would gotten there myself. yeah. So much so much stigma around that in independence. I remembered what I was gonna ask you before, which was around, you know, activism and you know, the need to feel like, you know, when you're in a place where things are really broken, you know, and and it really impacts your day to day, feeling like it becomes your whole life to work on a transportation access or you know, how do you make the bus better? How do you make sidewalk better? Whereas when I was living in New York, it wasn't my life, right? 'Cause it just was it worked relative. I mean, it wasn't perfect, right? You could still complain that the bus didn't c you know, the train broke down or, you know, the frequency was every ten minutes instead of three minutes, but it it worked pretty well and so it really didn't define my life in the way it does now or or my work. Are you sort of enjoying that space where you have we room to do other things with your energy and advocacy? McKenzie: Yes. honestly like that was like a motivation too for moving here because I feel like I you know now so I work in like progressive politics doing social media for a newsroom and being able to like zoom out of like not just like the street level like advocacy and kind of like seeing like bigger picture. I'm more able to like see like okay like what what issues are most important to me. and like obviously like safe streets and like those things are very important to me, but I kind of like know that already. So like kind of zooming out and seeing like, like what else is like of interest to me. and so like with like my involvement with the Democratic Socialist and just j generally as I get more involved I'm excited to see like what really what really stands out. And like When I went to college I was an environmental science major. So I know like environmental issues are something that is important to me. But like diving more into like what that looks like in twenty twenty six because when I gr when I was in college, like in the twenty tens, like the conversations around climate were a lot different. so seeing seeing what that is now and like honestly how it intersects with like public transportation and like like class struggle. I'm excited to see like where where that goes. Anna: Awesome. I'm excited for you. And excited for the world to have, you know, your energy in other spaces too, right? Because it is it is all connected and that idea of zooming out, I think, is is a nice way to put it. Devin: What a cool series of events, honestly, if you really think about it, if you zoom out too, you know, that you this all kind of started, right? When you were like, I don't know if I I can drive anymore. You know, and and for a lot of folks, that's like the end of the world. You know, I mean it is and from there you got into making a place better that maybe didn't function well for you, but you still did that. Right. Like that's a huge thing. I mean, that more people should do. now you're in this place that works for you, and that's giving you the opportunity as well, where you're working in like what sounds like a really cool job. you're able to do kind of like extracurricular things that you've always wanted to do, but you're also still active, just in a different way. and personally I think like that's such a hopeful message. And and when you find yourself in that position, you're like, man, like I'm stuck at home, I can't drive. Like, I mean, that is kind of one of the things that we've trying to do with this podcast too, right? Is to, is to give people, especially non-drivers, right, some sort of hope. and you know, as you're as you're looking forward, is there anything that is kind of giving you more hope for kind of the global nondriver community? Is there anything that you would like to push on or anything that you see that is just exciting you at the moment? McKenzie: I think that having open conversations about being non-drivers is so powerful. Like I love everything that y'all are doing. and I would say like a huge, like exciting thing. Obviously it's like week without driving. I think seeing it grow over the past few years has been I think I've done it two years now. This'll be like my third. And like obviously for me it's not I I don't really change too much, but seeing it go from what like initially I felt like was like kind of like a smaller a smaller like challenge to now I feel like it is so mainstream. Like, people are like asking me, like, what are you gonna do like on pedestrian pride for a week without driving? Like people people know about it and are like really excited about it. and seeing elected officials like actually take the challenge, to see what it's like to be a non driver for a week, I think is so, so powerful. that that I think that's like what I'm excited for. And that's just like two months from now. or not even. It's like less than two months. in October. Anna: October first through eighth. Thanks for doing the week without driving shout out. I I love how it made it in here. McKenzie: Yeah, no, of course. Like I I truly am very excited for that. I yeah, I'm excited for that. I'm excited not only not only for a week without driving, but like how like non drivers are like centered in these conversations because I you know, I've been on I've been on calls before where people are like, well, I live in a rural area, so it's just not possible. people can't be a nondriver here. And it's like, no, there are non-drivers in your community. There are children, there are people who have aged out of driving. There are people who are like me that have anxiety or maybe have a disability that prevents them from driving. And like by you saying like it's impossible, like you're erasing the the real lives of so many people, unintentionally, because I'm sure the people that are saying that are well intentioned. but Yeah, like I I think just like showing like, hey, there are non-drivers in your community right now that may be like kind of invisible to you is super powerful and I'm excited for for more stories to to hear more stories during week without driving. And for me, like as a social media girl, just like following along on social media, other people that are like me, and how they get around. And honestly, I need like the accountability of like yeah, I'm in a big city now, but like three months ago, like I was in the Midwest and I was struggling and like I know I know how real that is. and in following along other people who who are in like more rural areas, it's a reminder of like That that's real and it we still have a lot of work to do. Anna: my gosh. Yeah. Thank you for calling out I what you said around that th th the erasure of people's experience when when people claim that well everyone drives here, right? I think is it's just w the way you framed that was beautiful and I it's so important for decision makers to hear that and and remember. So thank you. And thank you for coming on with us today. I really appreciate you taking the time. I know you've got a busy life and A lot of exciting new things to explore on the east coast. So really appreciate you finding time to to chat with us. Devin: McKenzie, is there so obviously pedestrian pride. I know we have we're gonna put the link to your Instagram in the show notes. Is there any are there any other platforms that you're on as well that you wanna put out there for folks? McKenzie: Instagram, TikTok, like those are the those are the main ones. Devin: All right, well thanks so much. and we're looking forward to seeing what you're gonna be doing during week without driving as well. Anna: Yeah, no, thank you. McKenzie: Thanks, y'all. Anna: Thanks for listening to Nondriver. I'm Anna Zivarts. Devin: And I'm Devin Silvernail. If today's conversation resonated with you, please subscribe and share the show with a friend. Anna: You can also leave us a review wherever you listen. It genuinely helps other people find the show. Devin: Nondriver is brought to you by the Nondrivers Alliance. Find more info at non drivers.org. Anna: And this episode was produced by Devin. Devin: Wanna get in touch? Email us at nondriverpodcast at proton dot me. Anna: We'll see you next week.