Latest / Locatora Radio [A Radiophonic Novela] / Capitulo 103: Stop Asian Hate with Grace Chang

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Capitulo 103: Stop Asian Hate with Grace Chang · Locatora Radio [A Radiophonic Novela]

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to season five of a look at Rado
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Speaker 1: our Radio is a radio phonic novella, which is just
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1:33
Speaker 1: always practiced some good old self care. We are going
1:38
Speaker 1: to be addressing, uh, the recent and ongoing wave of
1:44
Speaker 1: anti Asian hate. We're going to be in discussion with
1:48
Speaker 1: Grace Chang and we're gonna talk a little bit about
1:51
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1:55
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Speaker 1: you right to the campaign. I also want to give
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Speaker 1: a quick shout out to gas and we were in
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Speaker 1: conversation with them this past Thursday. The Chicano Studies Institute
4:27
Speaker 1: of UC Santa Barbara invited us to host another conversation
4:31
Speaker 1: with and she is someone that we admire, that we
4:35
Speaker 1: learn from. And also, in case you didn't know, she
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Speaker 1: coined the term Selenida and she is you know response
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Speaker 1: she is the Selena scholar right responsible for archiving interviews,
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Speaker 1: UM a ton of data from when Selena died and
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Speaker 1: also her memory and everything that has persevered afterwards. So
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Speaker 1: check out her book Selenida. And there's also a recording
5:01
Speaker 1: floating around of the conversation. So once we have that,
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Speaker 1: we will link it somewhere, probably on our website. Yes, yes,
5:09
Speaker 1: we've been really busy over here in local Landia and uh,
5:14
Speaker 1: we wanted to take a minute to acknowledge some events
5:20
Speaker 1: in the world. I mean living in the United States,
5:22
Speaker 1: to be quite honest, the police state in which we
5:25
Speaker 1: really and truly find ourselves. It seems that there is
5:28
Speaker 1: a never ending cycle of violence and police brutality. And
5:35
Speaker 1: as people with platforms, as podcasters, as media makers, we
5:41
Speaker 1: do feel that it is important for us, as part
5:44
Speaker 1: of our radiophonic novella and our podcasting journey, to include
5:49
Speaker 1: right um these events in the world and to say
5:52
Speaker 1: the names of victims of police violence as part of
5:57
Speaker 1: this archive that we're creating. Right So, we're not going
6:00
Speaker 1: to do a deep dive into each of these recent cases.
6:04
Speaker 1: It would be honestly impossible to give every victim of
6:08
Speaker 1: police violence they're they're due um on a podcast like this,
6:13
Speaker 1: but we do want to acknowledge their teen year old
6:15
Speaker 1: Adam Tooleto, who was killed by police in Chicago. UM.
6:18
Speaker 1: We want to also acknowledge Dante right Um, who was
6:22
Speaker 1: murdered by police in Minnesota. We do have a really
6:26
Speaker 1: important interview with Grace Chang. We've been discussing um anti
6:32
Speaker 1: Asian hate on local Toora a little bit, and we
6:35
Speaker 1: provided a platform to Gabriella Los Angeles and the ASI.
6:39
Speaker 1: Do you want to talk a little bit about Gabriella
6:41
Speaker 1: Los Angeles and the i G takeover that they did
6:44
Speaker 1: with us. Yeah, absolutely so. I was connected with some
6:48
Speaker 1: members of Gabe La Los Angeles UM and they are
6:52
Speaker 1: a Filipina lead organization based in l A. There are
6:57
Speaker 1: grassroots organization and they are just working on dismantling imperialism,
7:03
Speaker 1: and so they did an incredible takeover on look at
7:07
Speaker 1: our radio. I was so impressed by the media assets
7:12
Speaker 1: that they created. They were super educational, informative. I was
7:17
Speaker 1: super impressed and like really amazed by the amount of
7:21
Speaker 1: work that they put into teaching us about what they're
7:25
Speaker 1: working on, to teaching us about the history of imperialism
7:29
Speaker 1: in the Philippines and also contextualizing the recent waves of
7:36
Speaker 1: hate crimes against the Asian community as something that is
7:39
Speaker 1: not recent, right. It may be in the in the
7:42
Speaker 1: sphere right now, in the new sphere, but there's actual
7:47
Speaker 1: historical um events that have transpired for decades, right that
7:53
Speaker 1: have led us to this moment. And so it's not
7:55
Speaker 1: has not just been the pandemic, but a ton of
7:59
Speaker 1: other things that have historical events that have happened in
8:02
Speaker 1: the past. So if you missed it, do not worry.
8:06
Speaker 1: You can head over to our i G Stories. They're
8:09
Speaker 1: saved out a highlight under Gabriela. And if there is
8:12
Speaker 1: an organization that you think should have an Instagram takeover,
8:17
Speaker 1: like let us know. If you're a part of the organization,
8:20
Speaker 1: send us an email, We would love to offer the platform.
8:23
Speaker 1: As the podcast continues to grow, we cannot always offer
8:27
Speaker 1: an interview, and so we're trying to get creative and
8:30
Speaker 1: and um really lean on the different platforms that we have,
8:34
Speaker 1: whether that be the Patreon, So definitely you'll be seeing
8:37
Speaker 1: more interviews on the Patreon or if it's an Instagram takeover,
8:41
Speaker 1: a newsletter, shout out all of that. So we're really
8:43
Speaker 1: trying to get creative with the way that we uplift
8:46
Speaker 1: different voices on look at that our radio, and so
8:48
Speaker 1: it might not always be on the podcast, but definitely
8:51
Speaker 1: know we are trying to create space in some way
8:54
Speaker 1: in loc Labia. Yes, yes we are. It's a process
8:58
Speaker 1: and we thank you all for being here on this
9:01
Speaker 1: journey and for rocking with us and writing with us
9:04
Speaker 1: and for tuning in. So we also want to plug
9:08
Speaker 1: that being said, a really cool Patreon interview that we
9:12
Speaker 1: did recently with one Julie Bigneto, who is a really
9:19
Speaker 1: um interesting person, stand up comedian, writer, podcast producer, and
9:27
Speaker 1: uh Latina who is currently uh performing a mixed media
9:35
Speaker 1: show called The Lass that comes from a really sad,
9:40
Speaker 1: really tragic place. THEO said, do you want to share
9:43
Speaker 1: a little bit about Julie's story and her partner who
9:47
Speaker 1: figures so prominently in this show and that she talks
9:52
Speaker 1: about in our interview. Okay, So Julie Pagnietto wrote this
9:58
Speaker 1: really incredibly moving, incredibly vulnerable show that she's hosting over Zoom.
10:03
Speaker 1: She's performing over Zoom. There're still tickets available and it's
10:08
Speaker 1: also free, by the way, And it comes from a
10:11
Speaker 1: tragic place like Mala mentioned where her partner was brutally
10:15
Speaker 1: murdered at the end of twenty couple months later, we'd
10:20
Speaker 1: go into a pandemic, right, And so while she's dealing
10:22
Speaker 1: with her grief, she creates this show. Her partner was
10:26
Speaker 1: a VR creator. She takes his background in VR and
10:31
Speaker 1: uses that as a way to preserve his legacy, preserve
10:35
Speaker 1: his work, and also re imagine what the relationship could
10:39
Speaker 1: have looked like. And it's incredibly moving. And I think
10:42
Speaker 1: that we've all been experiencing grief in one way or
10:45
Speaker 1: another this past year, and that was also what moved
10:47
Speaker 1: her to create the j Yes Um You may have
10:52
Speaker 1: heard of the murder of Julie's partner. So his name
10:58
Speaker 1: was Um Say Samprano and he was only twenty six
11:04
Speaker 1: years old. He was working in like the s I said, VR,
11:08
Speaker 1: and he was a video game developer and entrepreneur who
11:11
Speaker 1: was making a name for himself. UM So, if you
11:14
Speaker 1: don't know about the case, you can read more about it.
11:17
Speaker 1: Head over to our Patreon, become a subscriber to listen
11:21
Speaker 1: to Julie's full interview, and you can also get a
11:25
Speaker 1: ticket to her show and support. It's going to be
11:28
Speaker 1: running through basically the end of this month, so head
11:32
Speaker 1: over to Patreon to learn more and to tune into that.
11:36
Speaker 1: Um really moving interview with Julie Pigneto. Okay, so now
11:41
Speaker 1: you have the immense honor and privilege to chat with
11:45
Speaker 1: my former professor, Grace Chang. She is a professor at
11:49
Speaker 1: UC Santa Barbara, an overall amazing badass individual. She's a writer,
11:54
Speaker 1: she's an author, she is an activist. Uh, she's just
11:59
Speaker 1: an overall, you know, amazing phenomenal person that I've had
12:02
Speaker 1: the immense honor to learn from and we're all going
12:06
Speaker 1: to be learning from her today. She has an amazing background, expertise, knowledge,
12:12
Speaker 1: all of that. So, without further ado, here is our
12:15
Speaker 1: interview with Grace check. Welcome Grace, Thank you so much.
12:19
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for inviting me to speak about
12:24
Speaker 1: this really important or to have this conversation about this
12:27
Speaker 1: incredibly important UM set of issues, and it's so nice
12:32
Speaker 1: to be back in touch. Absolutely thank you. You know,
12:35
Speaker 1: before we dive into the conversation, I would love to
12:39
Speaker 1: give you the time and space right now to introduce
12:43
Speaker 1: yourself and you know, in your own words, and talk
12:45
Speaker 1: about your work and and anything you want to share
12:48
Speaker 1: with us well. UM. I guess the way that we
12:52
Speaker 1: have connected it is as you mentioned, I've been a
12:55
Speaker 1: professor at UC Santa Barbara now for almost twenty years,
13:00
Speaker 1: and I primarily teach about social justice movements. So I
13:04
Speaker 1: teach about social justice movements, particularly from an intersexual framework,
13:08
Speaker 1: and I try to look at how people's experiences of
13:14
Speaker 1: living and working at the intersections of of so many
13:18
Speaker 1: different actas of oppression and how that influences both their
13:24
Speaker 1: experiences as UM people who are our survivors of oppression,
13:29
Speaker 1: and also how they fight back UM and the ways
13:33
Speaker 1: that that can influence as well the success or UM
13:39
Speaker 1: or demise in some cases of UM coalitional work, UM
13:44
Speaker 1: solidarity work, the different ways that movements can be divided
13:49
Speaker 1: from each other, and people can be pitted against each other,
13:54
Speaker 1: um in movement work, and I think that that's sometimes
13:59
Speaker 1: those are sometimes things that people don't want to look
14:01
Speaker 1: at per se or they want to they don't want
14:03
Speaker 1: to highlight them necessarily. It's it's not necessarily good pr
14:06
Speaker 1: but it's incredibly important to look at how sometimes movements
14:10
Speaker 1: can be at odds with each other. And it's because
14:14
Speaker 1: we are being pitted against each other, both as individuals
14:20
Speaker 1: with our experiences and in movements and in organizations. So
14:25
Speaker 1: that's kind of the framework that I am right and
14:29
Speaker 1: teach within, and um, I think that it plays out
14:34
Speaker 1: so much in the work that I'm doing right now,
14:37
Speaker 1: the research that I've been doing now for about two
14:41
Speaker 1: decades on human trafficking and the ways that organizations that
14:47
Speaker 1: are supposedly or allegedly carrying on the mission of anti
14:52
Speaker 1: trafficking can often actually be very destructive and damaging towards
14:59
Speaker 1: people who are are are being exploited on the level
15:03
Speaker 1: of trafficking, yet they're not being identified as so called
15:08
Speaker 1: victims of trafficking, and they use the term victims because
15:10
Speaker 1: it's the legal term that people use. In order two,
15:14
Speaker 1: it's unfortunately the legal term that UM and identification that
15:19
Speaker 1: makes people eligible for different forms of support and resources
15:24
Speaker 1: as victims of trafficking UM. I don't use it in
15:26
Speaker 1: the in the sense of poor helpless victim who can't
15:29
Speaker 1: do anything for themselves. Right, And you know you probably
15:34
Speaker 1: remember me ranting about how people who are often identified
15:39
Speaker 1: as as victims are in fact that the most able
15:45
Speaker 1: and the most UM competent in in being able to
15:51
Speaker 1: fight for themselves and to fight against the exploitation and
15:55
Speaker 1: victimization that they might have experienced. So rather than someone
16:00
Speaker 1: coming from on high or coming from a very paternalistic
16:04
Speaker 1: or maternalistic position UM or colonial perspective quote saving victims
16:12
Speaker 1: UM really like to look at how people say themselves.
16:17
Speaker 1: People fight for themselves. They fight intergenerationally and across lots
16:23
Speaker 1: of different boundaries to try to to do solidarity work
16:27
Speaker 1: and to try to to expose where we are being
16:33
Speaker 1: exploited across different lines or oppressed UM in these UM
16:39
Speaker 1: intersectional ways and oppressors are sort of quite expert at
16:44
Speaker 1: doing that, and so we have up our game and
16:48
Speaker 1: be experts in resisting along those lines as well. Yeah,
16:52
Speaker 1: you know, I love that you set all of that.
16:54
Speaker 1: There's so much there I mean first about coalition building, right,
16:58
Speaker 1: And I think that we're in a moment, we're having
17:01
Speaker 1: what we've been having moments, right, But I think that
17:04
Speaker 1: now we're there's this opportunity for these different groups of
17:09
Speaker 1: people to really coalesced and to really build solidarity with
17:13
Speaker 1: each other. Um. And like you said, there has there
17:18
Speaker 1: have been many times where these groups have been purposely dismantled,
17:22
Speaker 1: you know. I'm like thinking about the Black Panthers and
17:25
Speaker 1: the Yellow Peril coalition building that was happening, and you know,
17:30
Speaker 1: not that work wasn't happened, Not that work hasn't been
17:32
Speaker 1: happening since then, or any movement building has been happening
17:35
Speaker 1: since then, but I think there's been a way that
17:38
Speaker 1: people have had to kind of go under reps, you know, um,
17:42
Speaker 1: and to be creative in the type of coalition building
17:45
Speaker 1: that they have to do, because if not, they're targeted
17:48
Speaker 1: by the state. Right. And so I'm really glad that
17:50
Speaker 1: you mentioned that because there's such an for lack of
17:53
Speaker 1: a better word, opportunity right now to build with each other.
17:57
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, And was just looking at an article by
18:02
Speaker 1: Victoria Law who wrote in Street Out and UM, a
18:06
Speaker 1: really um important I think response to the tragedy in Atlanta,
18:13
Speaker 1: the historical context and all of it. And one of
18:16
Speaker 1: the articles called activist counter anti Asian Racism through community
18:20
Speaker 1: safe safety Initiatives. And one of the best parts UM
18:25
Speaker 1: that I think that she talks about is UM so so,
18:28
Speaker 1: first of all, she she talks about the UM Red
18:32
Speaker 1: Canary Song collective of Asian sex workers UM, massage workers
18:36
Speaker 1: and allies in New York, New York City, and so
18:40
Speaker 1: she kind of trasses the very tragic history UM or
18:45
Speaker 1: the sort of initiation of the of the collective, and
18:49
Speaker 1: that was that it was created in response to this
18:53
Speaker 1: terrible death of Um Young Song, who was a thirty
18:59
Speaker 1: eight year old massage worker who fell from her fourth
19:05
Speaker 1: floor apartment to her death, and she was being chased. UM.
19:10
Speaker 1: It's understood that she was being chased by police who
19:13
Speaker 1: were attempting to arrest her allegedly for engaging in sex work.
19:17
Speaker 1: And UM she had also been sexually assaulted by a
19:21
Speaker 1: person who had claimed to be a police officer. UM
19:25
Speaker 1: she had been arrested on sex work charges UM months
19:29
Speaker 1: before that. And I think this was very awful, tragic
19:34
Speaker 1: beginning of a collective that is very much alive and
19:39
Speaker 1: well now and working in UM Flushing in Queens, New York,
19:44
Speaker 1: and working with a whole network of organizations who are
19:49
Speaker 1: demanding the decratalization of sex work in New York. It's
19:53
Speaker 1: called decrim New York. And one of the things that
19:56
Speaker 1: Victoria Law talks about is that from the beginning there
20:00
Speaker 1: were there was this history of the UM tragic death
20:05
Speaker 1: of Young Song, but there was also what she says
20:08
Speaker 1: is that there there were years since that was in
20:12
Speaker 1: two thousand seventeen UM, there were years where this organization's
20:16
Speaker 1: work could really build and grow and be understood within
20:22
Speaker 1: the community as trustworthy and reliable and UM they were.
20:27
Speaker 1: They did for knocking, and they did all types of
20:30
Speaker 1: advocacy and assistance including mutual aid and giving people support
20:37
Speaker 1: of whether it was groceries or cash, assistance and information
20:42
Speaker 1: and and know your rights and all of the things
20:45
Speaker 1: that that enabled people to survive and particularly enabled people
20:50
Speaker 1: survived through this pandemic. Not that always write saying saying
20:56
Speaker 1: things as if it's in the past, and yeah, but
21:03
Speaker 1: but you know, in reading the recent history of the
21:08
Speaker 1: Red Canary Song Collective, I feel like it's it is
21:12
Speaker 1: very parallel with UM. What people don't necessarily always think
21:18
Speaker 1: of the Black Panther movement UM being pivotal in which
21:23
Speaker 1: is also providing mutual aid, but but not just providing it,
21:27
Speaker 1: establishing the principle of it. Right, And the principle was
21:32
Speaker 1: that we do this and we provide basic needs for
21:35
Speaker 1: people to survive until the revolution, right, and then when
21:40
Speaker 1: the revolution comes that we're prepared and people are solid
21:43
Speaker 1: and people are cared for and have their basic needs
21:46
Speaker 1: taken care of, you know, by each other, right and um,
21:50
Speaker 1: and that is an alternative to capitalism, and that is
21:53
Speaker 1: an alternative to all of the violent, exploitative systems that
21:56
Speaker 1: we experience. So UM, I feel like any any collective
22:01
Speaker 1: that is like Reacknurson that is really following that model
22:06
Speaker 1: and following that historical precedent is just so so critically needed,
22:12
Speaker 1: so revolutionary in that that principle can't get lost. We
22:17
Speaker 1: cannot lose that principle along the way, or we will, um,
22:23
Speaker 1: or we will ultimately fail. Right. Yeah, thank you so
22:25
Speaker 1: much for providing information about Red Canary Song. I've been
22:29
Speaker 1: following them for a while now and I like love
22:31
Speaker 1: seeing the work that they're doing, and I think it's
22:33
Speaker 1: a really tangible way to get involved with what they're doing,
22:39
Speaker 1: or perhaps find your own local grassroots organization that's also
22:45
Speaker 1: providing mutual aid and decriminalizing sex work or their goal
22:49
Speaker 1: is to decriminalize sex work up because that's definitely a
22:52
Speaker 1: nationwide movement that's happening. Um so, I definitely encourage folks
22:57
Speaker 1: to check them out. So when talking about the shooting
23:03
Speaker 1: in Atlanta, right there were I noticed that there was
23:07
Speaker 1: a lot of media attention in the very beginning right
23:10
Speaker 1: and then as soon as it was revealed that perhaps
23:15
Speaker 1: some of the women working there were sex workers, I
23:17
Speaker 1: felt that I there was less coverage, like significantly less coverage.
23:21
Speaker 1: And I also saw that other Asian journalists were pointing
23:26
Speaker 1: this out as well. So I wanted to hear your
23:28
Speaker 1: perspective on that. And I think it's safe to say
23:30
Speaker 1: we know why, right, but let's talk about the why.
23:33
Speaker 1: So I I I often see both sides of the
23:37
Speaker 1: two cents, which is either the media just drops it
23:41
Speaker 1: and is not interested or does just um you know,
23:45
Speaker 1: unfortunately often very racialized and terrible accounts um or, or
23:51
Speaker 1: there's a particular spin, And in this case, the particular
23:55
Speaker 1: spin was to really focus on Um, it's workers, and
24:00
Speaker 1: and how can we and this basically asked backwards idea
24:05
Speaker 1: that oh, well, how can we avoid this tragedy again?
24:08
Speaker 1: We can avoid it by um, let's raid these massage
24:11
Speaker 1: workers and massage right, you know places more often. Right.
24:16
Speaker 1: And so I feel like there have there has been
24:22
Speaker 1: to me, at least in the alternative presses that I follow,
24:26
Speaker 1: there's been some really good responses to that and understandings
24:32
Speaker 1: and trying to bring back understandings of of how this
24:36
Speaker 1: is not the way to go. This is that is
24:39
Speaker 1: not going to serve people. UM. And I wanna do
24:42
Speaker 1: a shout out to a report that was done by
24:47
Speaker 1: the Urban Justice Center, the Sex Workers Project of the
24:50
Speaker 1: Urban Justice Center in two thou nine. And Um, as
24:54
Speaker 1: you and I were speaking about, you know, these studies
24:57
Speaker 1: get done over and over again, and if if people
25:01
Speaker 1: could just pay attention to the really important findings of
25:06
Speaker 1: these studies, it would be that would be really helpful. Right.
25:09
Speaker 1: And the bottom line of this UM study and the
25:13
Speaker 1: report that came out that was called Kicking down the
25:16
Speaker 1: Door at the Effects of anti Trafficking Raids, it essentially
25:19
Speaker 1: said that Melissa did More was the author was a
25:22
Speaker 1: primary author and basically found that most people who had
25:26
Speaker 1: self identified as having been trafficked actually helped themselves they
25:31
Speaker 1: quote rescued or saved themselves. Right. That it was very
25:36
Speaker 1: clear that service providers did not actually find those cases
25:40
Speaker 1: through raids UM. And that people who have experienced trafficking
25:46
Speaker 1: are actually the ones who can best identify other trafficking victims.
25:50
Speaker 1: They know what to look for. Um. And and on
25:55
Speaker 1: the flip side, traffic sex workers who had been arrested
25:59
Speaker 1: multiple time times actually didn't get identified by the police
26:03
Speaker 1: or by other law enforcement as having been trafficking victims.
26:07
Speaker 1: So there you go. I mean, right, they're virtually these
26:12
Speaker 1: raids are not only virtually worthless in terms of what
26:16
Speaker 1: they're supposedly trying to do, um, which I have questions about,
26:20
Speaker 1: but um, they're also incredibly traumatizing, you know, incredibly impactful
26:26
Speaker 1: to people who are hauled off, you know, have their
26:31
Speaker 1: lives disrupted, sometimes get out it in different ways that
26:34
Speaker 1: they don't want, you know, to be there. And they're
26:37
Speaker 1: not actually provided with resources or support services or anything
26:41
Speaker 1: that could actually make their lives better. And so what's
26:45
Speaker 1: the actual point of the raid if it's not, in
26:48
Speaker 1: fact just to criminalize people and to terrorize people essentially,
26:52
Speaker 1: right and um, yeah, so these calls for oh, let's
26:57
Speaker 1: let's crack down on massage parlors or let's um increase
27:02
Speaker 1: the raids, um and really step that up. That who
27:06
Speaker 1: is that going to serve? That's going to serve the police?
27:08
Speaker 1: Of course? Of course sensationalist media and that's about it.
27:13
Speaker 1: And do anything for these victims or potential victims, right,
27:18
Speaker 1: and by victims and the victims of the shootings, not
27:21
Speaker 1: that not on victims in in um this you know,
27:25
Speaker 1: sort of saviors terms, right right, right, Yeah, I mean
27:29
Speaker 1: there's so much there. I mean, yeah, there's just so
27:33
Speaker 1: much there. Like what you're saying is that the quote
27:38
Speaker 1: victims right of sex trafficking really are just saving themselves
27:41
Speaker 1: and it really just complicates complicates that that perfect victim narrative,
27:46
Speaker 1: right that I think very much sensationalizes what these raids
27:50
Speaker 1: are meant to do, right, quote protect and quote safe,
27:54
Speaker 1: but in reality they're actually just helping the police, as
27:57
Speaker 1: you said, absolutely so, Grace. You mentioned that there is
28:02
Speaker 1: a lot of lip service being done when it comes
28:05
Speaker 1: to sex work and sex workers rights. Can you elaborate
28:09
Speaker 1: on what you mean by that, what does this slip
28:12
Speaker 1: service look like or what is it? What it tell
28:15
Speaker 1: me more about that? Yeah, absolutely, so I'm gonna go
28:19
Speaker 1: straight to the top, Yes, Kamala Harris for for for
28:23
Speaker 1: a minute again and there Yeah, so, UM, there were
28:28
Speaker 1: these historic raids UM and it was called Operation Gilded Cage.
28:32
Speaker 1: They always come up with these fabulous names for these raids.
28:36
Speaker 1: I remember one was like Operation Orchid or something. Um.
28:40
Speaker 1: But but the one that I'm talking about, Operation Guilded
28:44
Speaker 1: Cage in two thousand and five was supposedly at that
28:48
Speaker 1: time the largest sex trafficking bust ever. Right and and
28:52
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris's response was quite interesting. She and she and
29:00
Speaker 1: E Lee, who's a long time sex worker rights organizer,
29:04
Speaker 1: is generally credited with UM with creating the term sex
29:07
Speaker 1: worker and sex worker. Um, they sort of did these
29:11
Speaker 1: dueling Uh, they sort of didn't op ed battle um
29:17
Speaker 1: and I can't remember whose came out first, but Carol
29:19
Speaker 1: Lee was basically trying to lay out the spectrum the
29:21
Speaker 1: whole how people in people can be in sex work voluntarily,
29:28
Speaker 1: they can be not trafficked or forced to engage in
29:33
Speaker 1: sex work, but they can still face other abuses. They
29:35
Speaker 1: can be cheated out of their wages, they can be
29:38
Speaker 1: abused by you know everyone in law enforcement, right, police, cut, UM, FBI,
29:43
Speaker 1: you name it. And then also after in the aftermath
29:48
Speaker 1: of that raid, the government was withholding people's trafficking visas
29:54
Speaker 1: in essence unless they were willing to testify UM sometimes
30:00
Speaker 1: not necessarily truthfully right about being trafficked. So if they
30:05
Speaker 1: weren't trafficking victims, UM, they were, they were basically facing
30:09
Speaker 1: deportation or they were sort of given being giving this
30:13
Speaker 1: quote choice that they could testify against these alleged traffickers
30:18
Speaker 1: UM and get the goods, right, get the trafficking visas,
30:21
Speaker 1: get get the TVSS, and get the resources and services
30:25
Speaker 1: that were attached to at so as she said, that
30:28
Speaker 1: sounds like an offer you can't refuse, right, yeah, right,
30:33
Speaker 1: So you know she's she's quite humorous. UM. And then
30:36
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris came with her her response to UM, Operation
30:42
Speaker 1: Builded Cage. And so she came, of course from a
30:45
Speaker 1: very prosecutorial position UM. And that's always been her her
30:50
Speaker 1: approach when she was the San Francisco tier and her
30:55
Speaker 1: narrative was really clear. Her narrative was all about, oh
30:59
Speaker 1: we saved these stones, um and UM. She was also
31:05
Speaker 1: very clear to say, no adults can consent to their
31:08
Speaker 1: own abuse. So this is of course the kind of
31:11
Speaker 1: classic refrain of the anti sex work camp, right right.
31:16
Speaker 1: They they really do a disservice to people's autonomy and
31:21
Speaker 1: their ability to speak for themselves by literally saying, well,
31:26
Speaker 1: you can't say that you're not abused because we're telling
31:30
Speaker 1: you you can't. You can't consent your own abuse. So
31:33
Speaker 1: you can't say that you're consenting sex worker, because we're
31:37
Speaker 1: going to tell you otherwise, um and UM. So it's
31:42
Speaker 1: this ideology that there's that there's no such thing as
31:44
Speaker 1: consensual sex work, that all people will commit in commercial
31:48
Speaker 1: sex are are victims by definition, right, And that's the
31:51
Speaker 1: ideology that I think Kamala Harris was very much promoting,
31:56
Speaker 1: very much um alining herself with for or most of
32:00
Speaker 1: her years in office. And it was quite convenient that
32:05
Speaker 1: when she hit the campaign trail um for for running
32:09
Speaker 1: with Biden, Um, she really changed her tune and she
32:14
Speaker 1: started coming out in more in the decrim camp, the
32:19
Speaker 1: decridinalization of sex work camp, which was a really interesting
32:23
Speaker 1: and rapid shift. UM. And I always say, hey, if
32:26
Speaker 1: she sticks to it, great, You know that I'm not
32:29
Speaker 1: gonna write I'm not going to fall well, I can't
32:33
Speaker 1: say I'm not going to follow her. But if she
32:35
Speaker 1: sticks to it, great, Right, Like you need someone in yeah,
32:40
Speaker 1: absolutely figureship and too to be able to really shift
32:45
Speaker 1: that narrative. And who better to do it than her hopefully,
32:49
Speaker 1: um so when push comes to shove, I really hope
32:52
Speaker 1: that she will stick to that, you know. Yeah, you know,
32:56
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of like quote feminists that anti
33:00
Speaker 1: sex work right and don't believe sex work can be consensual,
33:04
Speaker 1: so that there's a lot there, I mean within our
33:07
Speaker 1: own you know, different groups of community and circles and
33:12
Speaker 1: movements where you know, we're we're talking to our own
33:15
Speaker 1: people that sex work is work right, it is a
33:18
Speaker 1: type of labor um I mean, and that's just you know,
33:21
Speaker 1: one oh one. But then to talk about decriminalizing it,
33:25
Speaker 1: you know, it just seems like there's there's a lot,
33:28
Speaker 1: there's a there's a lot, there's a lot of convincing,
33:31
Speaker 1: it seems. So when it comes to like the feminist
33:33
Speaker 1: groups and circles, it's it's so confusing and really enraging
33:38
Speaker 1: to me, Right, you know, there's a lot of work
33:40
Speaker 1: to be done, and and one of my, um my
33:44
Speaker 1: biggest concerns is that because there's so much focus on
33:49
Speaker 1: alleged sex trafficking right right right, yeah, that oh, no
33:53
Speaker 1: one can choose that, and everyone is by definition exploited
33:57
Speaker 1: and in commercial sex because of that incredible disproportionate, completely
34:05
Speaker 1: exaggerated UM on that industry within the realm of talking
34:11
Speaker 1: about human trafficking. All these are forms of trafficking in
34:15
Speaker 1: other industries that are much more prevalent, that go unnoticed
34:20
Speaker 1: and unintended to, and people don't um aren't interesting in
34:24
Speaker 1: rallying behind the domestic workers who are also facing trafficking,
34:29
Speaker 1: or people in manufacturing, or people absolutely you know, all
34:34
Speaker 1: kinds of care work. I mean, yeah, I mean capitalism
34:37
Speaker 1: in its existence is exploitative. Any type of labor, you
34:41
Speaker 1: have the potential to be exploited by your employer, by
34:45
Speaker 1: even a coworker or colleague, exactly, right, exactly, And unfortunately
34:51
Speaker 1: people often want to pick the easy and the glamorous
34:55
Speaker 1: and the sensational stuff and look at um and they
34:58
Speaker 1: want to focus the lens on on sex trafficking, even
35:02
Speaker 1: when they don't even necessarily understand what that what that
35:07
Speaker 1: term implies, right, and um, they are not so quick
35:13
Speaker 1: to come to the defense or align with supporting domestic
35:18
Speaker 1: workers who are working, or home care workers who are
35:22
Speaker 1: working twenty four hour shifts, or domestic workers who are
35:27
Speaker 1: being exploited by their employers and then being dumped during
35:31
Speaker 1: the during the COVID during the pandemic. And there was
35:36
Speaker 1: one piece of domestic worker or slash manny who was
35:42
Speaker 1: let go, you know, who was fired basically, Um, that
35:46
Speaker 1: goes as a nice euphemism, right, but who was was
35:49
Speaker 1: essentially out of a job. And then her employers asked
35:53
Speaker 1: if she wouldn't mind to face time with the children
35:56
Speaker 1: and the family because they missed her. Wow. Yea, that
36:01
Speaker 1: is emotional terrorism. That is really horrible, It really is.
36:07
Speaker 1: But it's so representative. I think of the way that
36:11
Speaker 1: people think of domestic workers and nannies and care workers
36:15
Speaker 1: of all sorts as as just ultimately super exploitable, endlessly
36:22
Speaker 1: exploitable and um and ultimately disposable, right and um, that
36:29
Speaker 1: is the Unfortunately I see that as the face of
36:33
Speaker 1: the American public. Yeah, it's an ugly face. M m
36:45
Speaker 1: m m m m m m m m m m
36:55
Speaker 1: m m M of it and little Ship Planet Parenthood
37:26
Speaker 1: asked me to show someone how I see them, like
37:29
Speaker 1: really see them, So this ad is dedicated to none
37:33
Speaker 1: other than you, the OSSA. I see you going out
37:37
Speaker 1: on runs every day, trying to reach personal goals and
37:42
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37:45
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37:48
Speaker 1: are putting your endurance to the test your training, and
37:50
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37:53
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37:56
Speaker 1: feel very lucky to get to see you in that journey.
37:59
Speaker 1: The inks girl, Yeah, it's definitely a new goal of mine.
38:02
Speaker 1: You know I'm challenging myself and you know I'm trying
38:06
Speaker 1: to inspire others as well. Similarly to planned Parenthood, thank
38:11
Speaker 1: you for seeing me. Planned parenthood sees you, truly sees you,
38:15
Speaker 1: not as patients, but as people deserving of understanding and
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Speaker 1: b CNE dot org to learn more about how Planned
38:34
Speaker 1: Parenthood is here to see you become who you will be.
38:37
Speaker 1: That's www dot b CNE dot org. I feel like
38:43
Speaker 1: after the Allanted shootings, um, so many people came out
38:48
Speaker 1: like either just in social media with personal stories like
38:52
Speaker 1: you know, in my friend network or in out in
38:55
Speaker 1: the media about you know, different things that we've dirt
39:00
Speaker 1: along the way. Like I can't tell you personally myself
39:03
Speaker 1: how many times I've been approached by people who want
39:08
Speaker 1: to tell me about their Asian wife, their Asian girlfriend. Um,
39:14
Speaker 1: who they have, Um, you know, who they sucked in
39:18
Speaker 1: the in in whatever part of their lives, right, who
39:22
Speaker 1: happened to be Asian or an Asian woman? Um? Who
39:26
Speaker 1: they yeah, I mean, who they encountered in in their
39:30
Speaker 1: exploits during um, during their time in the service, in
39:34
Speaker 1: the military service. Right. So um. I even sort of
39:38
Speaker 1: dredged up. I remembered in the aftermath of the shootings
39:43
Speaker 1: something that I had sort of like, I think suppressed
39:46
Speaker 1: for quite a while. I was a I think I
39:50
Speaker 1: was a high school student sitting on a school bus
39:54
Speaker 1: waiting for the bus to take off. Right, we're just
39:58
Speaker 1: all lined up there that there were just a few
40:00
Speaker 1: more moments for people to like pile on the bus
40:04
Speaker 1: and somebody who was the brother of a friend of
40:08
Speaker 1: my sister, so I like vaguely knew him. He walked
40:14
Speaker 1: up to the right outside the window of the bus
40:17
Speaker 1: and he made a gesture like he was shooting me,
40:21
Speaker 1: and he like a gesture shooting me several times. Um,
40:28
Speaker 1: And and then he shouted something about google blah blah blah. Right,
40:33
Speaker 1: And I didn't even really I didn't even know that
40:35
Speaker 1: that term goog. Right, I knew the term chink. I
40:38
Speaker 1: had heard chink, I heard job. I had not heard
40:40
Speaker 1: that particular racial epithet before. Right, So you know, yeah,
40:46
Speaker 1: these are the things that that so many as of
40:48
Speaker 1: us have experienced. And when this type of incident um,
40:55
Speaker 1: which sounds so minimizing even to call it an incident, right,
40:58
Speaker 1: And when a tragedy like this happens, yeah, triggers us all. Um.
41:03
Speaker 1: The night of the shooting, actually, one of my friends
41:06
Speaker 1: who's a Philipino woman, she she texted a few of us, um,
41:11
Speaker 1: these two other women who are two other friends of
41:15
Speaker 1: mine who are are also Philippino women, and myself, and
41:18
Speaker 1: she said, don't look at the news. It's triggering. Trust me,
41:23
Speaker 1: you'll thank me. Um. And of course, like that was
41:27
Speaker 1: very hard to do, right, So so I don't think
41:29
Speaker 1: that I that I actually did that fully, but it's
41:32
Speaker 1: interesting what my where my mind went Immediately. I first thought, okay,
41:38
Speaker 1: well what could it be? And I came up with
41:40
Speaker 1: all these series. Right. My first thought was, oh, they've
41:43
Speaker 1: done something horrific to the young people trying to cross
41:48
Speaker 1: the border, right now, that was my first name. My
41:50
Speaker 1: second theory was, oh, some cop just got off right
41:55
Speaker 1: from some some killer cop just got off and um again, right,
42:01
Speaker 1: And that sort of actually brought me to when I
42:04
Speaker 1: was talking about that in class the other day, that
42:08
Speaker 1: brought me to the double meaning of that, you know
42:11
Speaker 1: those words some cops just got off because in my
42:15
Speaker 1: research um around these issues, it's become really really clear
42:20
Speaker 1: that that one of the primary abusers of sex workers
42:24
Speaker 1: are cops. Right. Cops and law enforcement are constantly harassing
42:29
Speaker 1: and abusing, attacking, raping sex workers right for a price,
42:35
Speaker 1: right for the price of of of so called protection,
42:38
Speaker 1: for the price of not um not turning people in.
42:42
Speaker 1: And there are just too many instances to mention of
42:46
Speaker 1: the NYPD, the Seattle PD, the San Francisco p D, um,
42:52
Speaker 1: you name it. Of one scandal or another where it's
42:55
Speaker 1: found out that cops are extracting either money or sex
43:00
Speaker 1: sets for in order to UM not arrest or not
43:05
Speaker 1: turn in UM sex workers in in various contexts. Right,
43:11
Speaker 1: And that's a really really important piece of the picture
43:16
Speaker 1: I think doesn't get focused on. And instead we have
43:22
Speaker 1: you know, people clamoring about, oh, well, we should really
43:26
Speaker 1: like do more raids on these massage parlors to UM,
43:31
Speaker 1: you know, to try to prevent this kind of tragedy
43:34
Speaker 1: from happening. And I don't know about you, but that
43:36
Speaker 1: just does not compute from any angle. So it doesn't
43:40
Speaker 1: like to protect and serve. Who is what we're constantly
43:44
Speaker 1: we've been asking, right for many years now is who
43:47
Speaker 1: is law enforcement actually protecting and serving well themselves and
43:51
Speaker 1: actual property right and whiteness and white supremacy. Yeah, thank
43:54
Speaker 1: you so much for bringing that up. But I wanted
43:57
Speaker 1: to ask you as a final question. You mentioned, you know,
44:01
Speaker 1: just simple protection for either sex workers, care workers, immigrant workers,
44:09
Speaker 1: and that there's a pretty simple answer for mate ensuring
44:13
Speaker 1: that this these communities aren't as vulnerable right to whatever
44:18
Speaker 1: forms of attack or violence. Can you expand on that? Yeah? Absolutely,
44:23
Speaker 1: so the very simple answer, UM it's a one word
44:28
Speaker 1: answer that that we could definitely extand on. Among us
44:32
Speaker 1: is decriminalization. Right. So undocumented UH, migrant workers are are criminalized, right. UM,
44:40
Speaker 1: sex workers are criminalized. UM. Care workers are not criminalized
44:48
Speaker 1: exactly the same way, but they are often excluded and
44:52
Speaker 1: left out of basically protections right care workers at alls, UM.
44:58
Speaker 1: And so all of those things point to the same things.
45:02
Speaker 1: If you truly want to protect people, the best way
45:05
Speaker 1: to protect people is to ensure that they have some
45:07
Speaker 1: basic rights that other others, others at least presumably theoretically do, right.
45:13
Speaker 1: So to start from that basis of Okay, what are
45:18
Speaker 1: the what are the ways that people are especially vulnerable
45:22
Speaker 1: to exploitation and violence? Um? And almost always the answer
45:27
Speaker 1: to that is that they are being criminalized, they're being dehumanized,
45:31
Speaker 1: and they are being excluded from basic protections. UM. That
45:36
Speaker 1: seems really simple to me, But it doesn't seem to
45:39
Speaker 1: be something that is moving really quickly UM in the
45:43
Speaker 1: public arena, or at least anything. And I have some
45:47
Speaker 1: really good examples in fact, of some other campaigns that
45:52
Speaker 1: are that are happening now that I think be really
45:55
Speaker 1: wonderful to people to sort of like do a shout
45:58
Speaker 1: out or call yeah, absolutely please great. So UM. One
46:03
Speaker 1: of the first ones is, um, there are home care
46:07
Speaker 1: workers who are personal tenants. Um. You know, many of
46:11
Speaker 1: them are elder Asian women, elder Chinese women. And I
46:17
Speaker 1: want to point out too, because I think that this,
46:20
Speaker 1: this doesn't always get the attention of people, but so
46:23
Speaker 1: many of the women who were the workers who were
46:27
Speaker 1: victimized in the land in the land to shooting, many
46:31
Speaker 1: of them were over fifty. In fact, most of them,
46:33
Speaker 1: I think we're over fifty, right, they were, they were
46:36
Speaker 1: older women in this case. In the campaign that I'm
46:38
Speaker 1: mentioned in New York. UM, it's called the anti anti
46:42
Speaker 1: woman campaign after such er trees of court. Right, So
46:47
Speaker 1: they are they're basically fighting for the right to not
46:51
Speaker 1: have to work twenty four hour shifts. And when I
46:55
Speaker 1: mentioned that to two people off hands, sometimes people are like,
46:59
Speaker 1: what right, They can't even believe that we're talking about
47:03
Speaker 1: a twenty four shift, especially in something as intensive as
47:09
Speaker 1: home care, home health care. That's it, right, It's it's
47:13
Speaker 1: lifting people, it's helping people to um, to toilet, right,
47:17
Speaker 1: it's helping people to turn in bed sometimes to turn
47:22
Speaker 1: people you know, within a certain number of hours back
47:26
Speaker 1: and forth so that they're not getting bed sores. It's
47:29
Speaker 1: helping people to eat, it's helping people to to do
47:31
Speaker 1: any number of things that that they are needing assistance
47:35
Speaker 1: for and very intimate work, right, very intimate assistance, UM.
47:41
Speaker 1: And so in that respect, I feel like that care
47:43
Speaker 1: work is just as intimate as sex work, right, and
47:47
Speaker 1: people don't I think that because it's not as glamorous
47:52
Speaker 1: and literally as sexy as as as people like to
47:56
Speaker 1: think of, um, you know in the sex industry, right,
48:00
Speaker 1: people don't want to pay attention to it. And this
48:03
Speaker 1: campaign was is a long standing campaign. These workers who
48:08
Speaker 1: have been fighting for themselves, advocating for themselves. First they
48:12
Speaker 1: were fighting for mostly to get back wages back and
48:17
Speaker 1: then it has somewhat expanded now to try to recapture
48:23
Speaker 1: some some rights that they had managed to get in
48:26
Speaker 1: these lawsuits that they had filed. So they had filed lawsuits, UM,
48:31
Speaker 1: and they had been successful in um not being you know,
48:37
Speaker 1: getting some back wages and also not being held to
48:40
Speaker 1: the twenty four hour work shift. And then loanhol Andrew
48:45
Speaker 1: Cuomo said, well, in the context of COVID, you know,
48:50
Speaker 1: during the pandemic we need emergency measures, so let's go
48:54
Speaker 1: back to the status quo. So so they were back
48:57
Speaker 1: to square one. So all they're really asking for it's
49:00
Speaker 1: a it seems to be a very tall order, even
49:04
Speaker 1: though it shouldn't be asking for a separate, separate twelve
49:08
Speaker 1: hour shifts. UM. What has been happening, and that the
49:12
Speaker 1: status quo that Andrew Cuomo seems to be so happy
49:15
Speaker 1: to sell um these workers down the river for is
49:19
Speaker 1: UM as well as their union UM s c i U,
49:23
Speaker 1: has has not actually, I'll just put it bluntly, has
49:27
Speaker 1: not served them well, has not represented their interest. Well,
49:30
Speaker 1: you know, the status quo has been that they've been
49:34
Speaker 1: working twenty four hour shifts but then being told by
49:38
Speaker 1: their home care agencies to only report I believe it's
49:43
Speaker 1: thirteen hours, so that they get they only get paid
49:47
Speaker 1: for that, because if they report longer hours than that,
49:52
Speaker 1: or or they confess right admit to being UM working
49:57
Speaker 1: around the clock, then they will often stand the chance
50:00
Speaker 1: of losing those jobs, right UM, which they can't afford
50:04
Speaker 1: that either. So it's a the choice, the so called choice,
50:08
Speaker 1: and it's a false choice obviously, is to either work
50:11
Speaker 1: around the clock and be completely exploited and exhausted and
50:15
Speaker 1: suffer lots of health issues themselves and never see their
50:20
Speaker 1: families or to lose those jobs, right, to lose those
50:23
Speaker 1: sources of income that are sometimes the only source of
50:27
Speaker 1: support for their families. And I just wanted to add
50:30
Speaker 1: that these are women who they work garment workers, many
50:33
Speaker 1: of them um form of garment workers and have transitioned
50:38
Speaker 1: to this work. And it's just really incredibly ironic and
50:42
Speaker 1: telling that they are going from one form of exploited
50:45
Speaker 1: labor to another. Right. And um, there are there immigrants,
50:51
Speaker 1: they're elder there Asian women and women of color and
50:56
Speaker 1: some men of color. Um, and uh, why are they
51:00
Speaker 1: not being protected where they're not being offered basic rights?
51:06
Speaker 1: I think it's it's really easy to see why. Right.
51:10
Speaker 1: Thank you so much Grace Chang for coming on the
51:14
Speaker 1: podcast and sharing your your work and all these amazing
51:19
Speaker 1: resources and this history and analysis for our audience. For
51:24
Speaker 1: those listeners who are interested in reading more of your
51:28
Speaker 1: work or following you and learning further from you. How
51:32
Speaker 1: can they do that? Um? So I'm working on a book. Um,
51:38
Speaker 1: I'm working in a book on human trafficking, and it's
51:41
Speaker 1: going to be published by the New Press in New York. UM.
51:46
Speaker 1: That is I want to say imminently coming out. But
51:50
Speaker 1: I think that's a little too optimistic. In fact, I
51:53
Speaker 1: think that the some of the recent things that have
51:56
Speaker 1: happened in the context of the pandemic, including UM, this tragedy,
52:01
Speaker 1: have have compelled me. I really feel UM, you know,
52:07
Speaker 1: I feel compelled to make sure that I incorporate these UM,
52:13
Speaker 1: these accounts into the into the story, because it's just
52:17
Speaker 1: really important to address them, and I think they are unfortunately,
52:22
Speaker 1: really good examples of how UM this is playing out
52:26
Speaker 1: in the national discourse. So I'm going to be including
52:31
Speaker 1: those stories in in the book. UM. I also have
52:35
Speaker 1: a previous book called Disposal Domestics, UM, and that's by
52:40
Speaker 1: UM that's published by Haymarket Press. UM, and shout out
52:45
Speaker 1: to Haymarket, shout out to New the New Press as well. UM.
52:49
Speaker 1: Both of those presses have been doing some really great UM.
52:53
Speaker 1: I think you know, they've been doing some really great programming. Amazing.
52:58
Speaker 1: We will link the the Haymarket pressing the show notes
53:03
Speaker 1: so that folks can buy your book, support both you
53:06
Speaker 1: and also the publication because we love supporting all of that.
53:12
Speaker 1: So thank you so much. Grace for joining us today
53:15
Speaker 1: and sharing your knowledge, your expertise with us. It's been
53:19
Speaker 1: truly wonderful to speak with you and learn from you
53:22
Speaker 1: once again. Absolutely, it was very, very nice to be
53:25
Speaker 1: in a a conversation with you again, and I appreciate you
53:28
Speaker 1: both for addressing this issue in a in a real
53:32
Speaker 1: concerned way instead of just sort of like flashing the plan,
53:36
Speaker 1: you know, right right right, Thank you, Thank you so much.
53:45
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