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Lust: Conversation · Beyond the Sermon

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  Thanks for joining us, on beyond the sermon.
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  The podcast of First Methodist Church in Collingswood New
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  Jersey. Our goal is not only to share
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  our sermons, but to go beyond the sermon in conversation about
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  what we're learning and what God is doing in our lives, and in
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  our community, this conversation is inspired by our 2023 sermon
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  series for length, seven deadly sins, the power of God to Move
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  us from death to New Life. He can find more information
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  about our church at fum. See Collingswood, org.
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  Thanks for joining us for this conversation.
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  So, Scott, one of the great questions I receive from Meg and
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  I'll add a little bit to it. What was it like saying the word
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  sex so much from the pulpit and the second service, having to
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  front rows filled with teenagers, awkward at first?
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  I mean, eventually I got into a bit of a Flow with my sermon but
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  especially that first time laying it out there.
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  This is what we're talking about today.
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  We're Jesus didn't beat around the bush about it and so I
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  decided we weren't either and you know and and you mention
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  about the the teenagers but in a lot of ways like those are the
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  ones I had on my mind as I was Prepare and stuff this week not
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  that they're the only ones dealing with issues of sex and
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  sexuality. But they've grown up in such a
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  different context than some of us other Generations where
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  things were more clear-cut that they, I think they've got a lot
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  more wrestling, they're going to have to do and it's gonna cost
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  them more to live according to a Biblical sexual ethic then it
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  has costs other Generations know our kids if they make it through
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  a public high school education, I can almost guarantee you that
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  they know more about things revolving around sex.
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  Even if they haven't had any experience, they have knowledge
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  of a lot more than any of us did ever at that age.
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  Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, no.
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  It's it's very scary and so Sometimes it's awkward to talk
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  about. It's like within my job
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  position. Like there are questions and
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  conversations that are head. Yeah.
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  And I need to be had and need to be head.
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  But there's a layer of awkwardness primarily because
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  I'm talking to minors. Yeah, about it.
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  But I know that they're hearing about it every day, every other
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  day at school, right? So like, don't We're Not Gonna
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  Going to talk about it. That's all they're going to hear
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  about. Yeah.
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  And so that's where it's as uncomfortable as it can be.
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  Sometimes that it's still conversations that need to be
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  had. And, you know, the old old adage
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  of like the birds and the bees and like all that stuff doesn't
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  cut it because their friends are gonna tell him all this time.
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  Where'd you hear that? Where you learned that?
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  Oh Google and then Google this and then yeah.
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  Everything will come up and I don't think ignoring it is
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  really an option anymore. No, I think we owe it to our
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  young people to be willing to have these conversations even
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  though it's hard, and it's awkward and no one particularly
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  wants to have these conversations, but we have to,
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  yeah, we have to, you know, I mentioned towards the end of the
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  sermon like, Like sex can have some life-altering consequences
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  that don't just get taken away just because we're forgiven.
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  Yeah. And so there there's just like a
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  lot of consequences happening out of this desire out of this
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  heart issue as you discussed in the sermon, that's being played
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  out in all of these physical ways.
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  Yeah and it's not just in in singleness either.
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  I mean, you look at the number of Of marriages that end in
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  divorce because of pornography because of infidelity because of
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  unmet needs even. I mean, because we're just not
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  willing to have the conversation and so we go looking elsewhere,
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  you can tell me that, that's not a life-altering consequence,
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  both for the two people involved, but also for their
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  families and their friends and the community that they're part
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  of Out of it it changes things. Yeah.
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  So what's the solution? We just start cutting off
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  people's hands and putting out people's eyes.
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  That's Jesus said right days some days, I think it.
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  And then people say, well, that seems too intense I have.
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  But Jesus is reasoning for. That is pretty valid.
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  Yeah, but somebody came up to me after the service and I remember
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  who it was, I'm just not using their name because I didn't ask
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  him for permission ahead of time.
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  But somebody came up to me, After church and said, do you
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  think Jesus was just toying with the Pharisees?
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  He was kind of poking at them because by saying you know if
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  your hands cutting causing you to sin, cut it off if your eyes
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  causing you to send put it out because they had built so many
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  rules to try to protect themselves from sinning.
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  And Jesus was kind of saying, like, listen, you can do
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  whatever you want to your body. D, it's not going to deal with
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  the issue of the sin, in your heart and ones, God says,
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  created rules that. In addition to the, how many
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  hundreds in the Old Testament 613, in addition to the 613, the
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  Jewish leaders were like, well, I'm not so clear about what it
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  means to actually live these 630.
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  Now, let's clarify by adding more specific rules on how to do
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  it. And so by Jesus time how many
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  were in the talmud like gosh I couldn't tell ya thousands, And
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  it was stuff like the Ten Commandments say you shall honor
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  the Sabbath right and not work on the Sabbath.
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  Hmm. Okay.
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  Well then we need to Define what it is to work.
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  So that way we make sure we don't inadvertently break that
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  guy. And I think there's 39
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  categories that count as work. Oh yeah.
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  According to the town and it was like, you know, you can only
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  walk so far on the Sabbath day. You can eat cold food that you
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  Repaired the day before but you can't heat up food from the day
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  before the stuff like that. So all that to say all that to
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  say the Pharisees created, these rules to protect themselves from
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  breaking the rules and what happens that we used to tell
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  people in Uganda when we were talking about this principle was
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  you know, you might have a goat and you want to protect that
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  goat and so you tie the rope around the go and Hiya to a post
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  or a tree or something to protect that goat from wandering
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  off and doing something. It shouldn't do getting into
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  something that shouldn't be in. But instead of continuing to
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  take care of the goat you start taking care of the Rope though,
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  right? And so any you know you're very
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  careful about what happens to that rope.
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  Meanwhile the goats over here dying of thirst because you
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  never untied it to let it go. Get water.
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  How do we tie this all back to lust?
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  Well, That's the key though. It Jesus, I think is saying
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  here, our Behavior matters. Our actions matter, the things
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  we do matter, but it starts in our hearts.
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  And until we can deal with the sin in our heart, our actions
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  aren't going to be the primary concern Dallas Willard called it
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  a gospel of sin management. You know, we want just enough
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  Jesus to help us to stop all these behaviors.
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  We know are wrong. What Jesus is saying here is no,
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  I want it all. All your whole heart, I want to
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  deal with the stuff that's in there because on our own, we're
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  never going to be able to deal with that said, we're never
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  going to be able to clean up our hearts enough to make it a
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  dwelling place for God. We can't do it.
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  Yeah, that I mean, and I get that Jesus sets a high bar,
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  right? But I don't think Jesus sets
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  this bar that's unattainable for us because he's just trying to
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  rub our Nose in it. I think that's part of what the
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  law was meant to do. The law was given Paul says in
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  Romans, so that we would learn to realize that will never be
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  good enough to keep the law instead of convincing ourselves
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  that we are following it perfectly like some of the
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  Pharisees Reich, the rich, man and Raya.
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  And so we can't do it on our own, we need God to come and do
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  in us. What only I can do and it's in
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  that choice to surrender ourselves to submit ourselves to
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  God, to God's way of life, to how he calls us to live and
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  interact with other people, it's an inviting him to come and do
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  that work in us that he empowers us to live the kind of Life.
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  He's called us to. And when we don't live according
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  to the way he's called us to, you had mentioned about our
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  actions affect. Acting the Holy Spirit.
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  How do our actions affect the Holy Spirit and what versus well
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  versus show? That our actions affect the Holy
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  Spirit. And I think I even that verse
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  that in First Corinthians, so we were really looking at that
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  point. Like, says, do you not know that
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  your uniting Christ or the spirit with a prostitute?
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  Yes, I guess it depends on what I'm thinking about like calls
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  effect. As in like, I do this, it
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  affects the spirit like this. Hmm.
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  Versus like a making the relationship less holy because
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  at least that's how I took it. I mean like in a Ephesians Paul
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  tells us not to grieve the Holy Spirit the spirit within us is
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  grieved when it's in the context of unwholesome talk coming out
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  of our mouths. Yeah.
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  When we allow Bitterness and rage and anger, brawling, and
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  slander to be the fruit that's being produced in our lives.
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  It Grieves, the Holy Spirit, go, hold on, I can cut off to the
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  right there. I think probably when I said
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  that I was mostly thinking in terms of it impacts how the
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  spirit then is able to relate to us.
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  I think that's probably more what I had in my mind because
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  it's in those things that we we lose the sensitivity to What the
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  spirit is, we our hearts become calloused and hardened, the the
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  relationship between Christ and the church between us is often
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  described and used alongside the imagery of a marriage.
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  And so if marriage is so holy and part of God's intention for
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  us, then why can't Catholic priest?
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  Get married. It's good question.
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  That's why I asked because the the Catholic faith kind of
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  stands alone in that position, right?
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  The get there in protestantism, we have no problem.
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  With pastors being married in the Greek and other Eastern
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  Orthodox Churches. They have no problem with that.
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  In fact, I think even to ascend into upper levels, like Bishops
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  and those kind of things in the Eastern Orthodox, you have to be
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  married. And that was true in And like
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  the Old Testament Israelite laws to the priest had to be married
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  but somewhere along the way as you know the church was I guess
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  it was after the church split. So sometime after the split
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  happened between the East and the West, some Bishop somewhere
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  along the way as they were, you know, selling indulgences and
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  all that kind of stuff to raise money to build these great
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  cathedrals in Europe. They They realized that if the
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  priests weren't married, then they wouldn't have kids.
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  And if they didn't have kids, then they'd probably leave their
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  money to the church when they died.
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  And so, you get, I'm and then they couched it in very biblical
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  language. I'm sure.
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  And said, you know, like Paul said, I wish everyone could be
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  single like I am. So they could be fully devoted
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  to the work of God, but if you have to go ahead and get
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  married, you know, and Jesus was single and are we And to be
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  like, Jim right? Exactly.
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  Exactly there, for ya. Hmm.
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  Very interesting. And speaking of Jesus, I've
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  heard of varies conspiracies that Jesus, either had wives or
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  multiple wives, and had multiple kids, where did those come from?
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  And why do you think those conspiracy started?
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  There are some some documents that were written well after the
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  time of Jesus life and even You know, the apostles lives that
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  were written and claimed to be gospels.
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  Like, we know, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John of other of his
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  followers. So you get like, the Gospel of
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  Thomas or the Gospel of Mary, you know, assumedly, Mary
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  Magdalene and, and they would try to fill in some of those
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  gaps that we don't have. So, you get stories in the
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  Thomas about like Jesus, as a kid, picking up a dead bird and
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  blowing on it, and it flying away.
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  And those Thomas the same one. Where he, where he blinds like
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  the whole town. I'm not sure about that one.
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  That's my face. I'm gonna throw that one out
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  there just because my kids love it and it's a lesson of, you
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  know, part of how do we discern? What is true about?
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  Jesus not and so if we, you know, can trust and we go into
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  why we trust the synoptic Gospels.
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  In Matthew, Mark, Luke and John Mackey.
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  Matthew, Mark and Luke sorry. Sorry, John, not one of the
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  synoptic scale. That's okay, right?
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  I'll just cut out that whole section.
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  So I sound smart that why they're why they are trusted and
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  how if it doesn't match the character of Jesus, that's a big
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  Telltale sign that is probably not.
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  And so, I believe it's most likely in Thomas because I think
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  the original intention was people are More likely to
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  believe in Jesus if there's a full well-rounded story and
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  since we don't have stories of his childhood besides being left
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  behind at the one festival and teaching in the temples that
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  this would help to the validity of this story.
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  And one of the stories is Jesus is walking through the
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  marketplace and so on bumps into his shoulder and he kills the
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  person on the spot and the Village People that like
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  witnessed it go to Marion Joseph her like your son can't just
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  kill people for bumping into him in the marketplace and Mary and
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  Joseph, go to Jesus. He can't be killing people in
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  the marketplace for bumping into you, because people saw it and
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  now they're now they're telling us and Jesus goes well, if
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  people can't see, then they won't be able to wrap me out.
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  And so we blinds all the people in the town.
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  Wow. Doesn't sound like the Jesus.
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  We know doesn't sound like, it sounds like some of the kids, I
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  know, but it doesn't sound like the geez.
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  Isis that I know. Yeah, yeah.
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  And so some of these, these false gospels, some of them are
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  part of what's been, what has become known as the Gnostic
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  Gospels. We mentioned gnosticism in
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  church on Sunday. And, you know, these are where
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  some of those stories came into Vogue.
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  I guess you'd say that. Jesus actually either married or
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  had a sexual relationship with Mary Magdalene after she started
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  following him and that he had children.
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  And so you know, a number of years ago, Dan Brown's The
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  DaVinci Code kind of came out and became popular and and part
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  of that story is kind of perpetuating this idea that
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  Jesus had a wife and they had children.
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  And there were still people who were part of the bloodline of
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  Jesus alive in the world today and all that kind of stuff.
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  And so, it crops up every once in awhile, people kind of
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  digging into the, he's, you know, forgotten gospels or these
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  hidden gospels or whatever. But but these documents aren't
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  Aren't even close to on par with what the church is, always
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  considered to be scripture. And again, for good reasonings,
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  sure, distance of time, distance of location, not lining up with
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  everything that we know to be true.
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  Because of you can't just stick the word gospel on something and
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  it automatically becomes scripture, but you can try the
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  gospel of Jeremy. Yeah.
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  Gosh. Anyway, moving on from that.
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  That you know, or talk about some theories about Jesus and
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  I'm curious, you were saying how you wish you knew what Jesus had
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  written in the story of the adulterous woman and John and
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  the saying he's writing in the sand and then the people started
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  walking away and they did in stone the woman.
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  Do you have any good theories that you've heard over the years
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  as to what he wrote? I mean some people have said
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  that, you know, he must have been writing out a list of some
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  of the sins that the people in the circle had committed one.
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  Guess is he was right in that verse that says, if you break
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  any part of the law, you're guilty of breaking the whole law
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  or something along those lines. That would have shown all those
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  Pharisees who were ready to Stone this woman.
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  That They were just as guilty as she was in reality.
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  You know, any other ones that you've heard of the first one
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  you mention is there's the one that always stuck out to me with
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  the story of the adulterous woman.
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  If anyone uses the Bible app, and some physical Bibles will
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  also say, prior to the beginning of that story, I believe it's at
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  the end of chapter 7, it will 753.
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  Yeah, it'll say something to the effect of this story is not
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  found in the earliest manuscripts of John and Then in
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  some of the online versions then that whole story, The adulterous
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  woman is italicized. Yeah.
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  And so curious yeah, even in the Bible I was reading from
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  yesterday. Oh yeah it's 753 2811 is in
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  italics and much smaller font with a little note there that
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  says yeah. This hasn't been found in the
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  earliest manuscripts and therefore people question the
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  authenticity of it, whether it really should be included,
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  there's a part. At the end of Mark's gospel,
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  that's the same way. So how do we, how do we
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  navigate? Those Aunty rights that I think,
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  has been most helpful to me in this and, and he comes down, I
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  mean, he's studied, you know, all of this in the original
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  Greek and all that. Kind of stuff that way is
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  phenomenal. Way above my pay grade and wind
• 20:49
  combined. Yes but his the point he comes
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  back to is I believe the Bible we have today is the Bible Jesus
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  wanted us to have. And so you know whether I will
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  ever get the satisfaction of knowing whether there was an
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  original manuscript of John Written in John's own hand that
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  included this story and it got taken out pretty quick because
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  it made people uncomfortable. And that's why because we don't
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  have anything that goes back to John himself we have copies of
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  copies and yeah and and those copies we have are incredibly
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  reliable down through the years and they they're consistent.
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  So whether this passage got taken out early, Whether it got
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  added in, you know, by one of his followers somewhere along
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  the way, I don't know. I don't know that I need to
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  know. But I believe that the Bible we
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  have, is the Bible God wanted us to have and that's where I come
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  down on it. Yeah.
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  And I think that's really important to the Bible.
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  We have being the Bible that God wants us to have means that it's
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  still useful for teaching for reproof judge for all of these
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  things. And so we can still learn from
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  that story and it still reflects the character of Jesus.
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  Of not judging and you know the speck in someone else's eye of
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  the plank in your own eye like it doesn't add a teaching that
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  Jesus doesn't share anywhere else in the gospels.
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  Sharm. It's just another example of the
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  same teachings and what I think is really amazing about people
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  being not just aware but also like Bible translators putting
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  that in Bibles I think is Important because people who are
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  they don't believe in scriptures of the validity of the
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  scriptures, a lot of time. The argument is, well,
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  Christians are the ones that have been passing it down so
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  they can make it, say, whatever they want.
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  How do we know what we have now is what was written way back
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  then. And the fact that we have so
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  many thousands of copies of manuscripts and were able to
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  compare and contrast them because they were spread across
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  so many different countries. Is that we can then look back
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  and be like, oh, this may have been added in at some point, but
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  that just shows how congruent the rest of the gospels are
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  that. These are the only two sections.
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  The one you mentioned at the end of Mark and John are the only
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  two sections that we've seen show up a couple hundred years
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  later after the Aurora earliest, manuscripts that we have.
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  But yeah, for me, it just, it all comes back to.
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  We have the Bible. God wanted us to have and that's
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  why. Why we don't necessarily include
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  the intertestamental books, the Apocrypha.
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  It's why. There are other things that were
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  written at that same time. Even within the church, other
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  letters, Paul wrote other letters, Peter wrote James that
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  didn't gain the same kind of acceptance.
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  And therefore, haven't been considered scripture like what
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  we know as first and second Corinthians as probably actually
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  the second and fourth Letters that Paul wrote to the church in
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  Corinth in a series of letters back and forth, I had no idea
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  is. So why was he wrong in the other
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  two? We don't know if what they say
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  that's like some of them have gotten lost but there's internal
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  evidence that says, no, there's something else going on at their
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  to letter. There's a correspondence that's
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  missing here. Yeah yeah.
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  And so. So why that why?
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  These two letters were the ones that were preserved?
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  Well, it's because the church I believe under the inspiration of
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  the spirit understood that there was something different about
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  these letters. These words and they became
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  scripture well that's our conversation for today but that
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  doesn't mean the conversation is over.
• 25:19
  We'd love to hear your thoughts on these topics as well.
• 25:22
  To ask a question about anything we've discussed in this episode
• 25:25
  or to join the conversation, you can head over to heh.
• 25:28
  Fum, see Collingswood org slash podcast, thanks for being part
• 25:33
  of this conversation. Fum, see Collingswood org slash
• 25:31
  podcast, thanks for being part of this conversation.